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| 10:06:53 | FromGitter | <endragor> > I cannot - I have not Windows ⏎ Seems to be a common misunderstanding when someone mentions VSCode ;) |
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| 10:08:52 | flyx | well they seriously could have come up with a better name |
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| 10:34:26 | chemist69 | I agree, but it's certainly a great editor for coding in Python an Nim. I switched from Atom to it. |
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| 10:35:15 | flyx | yeah, I use it too |
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| 10:35:30 | flyx | I switched from TextMate |
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| 10:39:30 | Salewski | Has someone already tried profiling a Nim program? I tried callgrind yesterday, basically easy to use, but I get for some procs two entries. Still no idea why. |
| 10:39:34 | Salewski | 1,200,091,516 /tmp//home/stefan/xchess/nim-chess/nim-chess_engine.c:quiescence_263040_3601934859 [/home/stefan/xchess/nim-chess/board] |
| 10:39:53 | Salewski | 311,180,283 /tmp//home/stefan/xchess/nim-chess/nim-chess_engine.c:quiescence_263040_3601934859'2 [/home/stefan/xchess/nim-chess/board] |
| 10:40:18 | cheatfate | Salewski, have you used generics? |
| 10:40:21 | cheatfate | in this procs? |
| 10:40:46 | Salewski | No. |
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| 10:41:36 | Salewski | At least not myself, maybe somethink from lib modules? |
| 10:41:59 | Araq | what's the prototype of 'quiescence'? |
| 10:43:08 | Salewski | proc quiescence(color: Color; depthleft: int; alpha0: int; beta: int): int = |
| 10:44:37 | Araq | the optimizer split it into 2 functions, I guess |
| 10:45:17 | Salewski | Oh, great idea. Thanks. |
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| 10:55:17 | Salewski | But I get also two entries for gcc option -O2 or -Os. |
| 10:55:53 | Araq | well check the generated assembler |
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| 11:26:22 | Salewski | The S option seems not to work: gcc.options.speed = "-O0 -S -g -fno-strict-aliasing" # And google does not help. So is assembly generation for Nim explained somewhere? |
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| 11:29:04 | Araq | -S always worked for me. put a syntax error in there and see if gcc.options.speed is actually picked up |
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| 11:34:16 | Salewski | Was picked up, I got with -S: stdlib_future.o: file format not recognized; treating as linker script |
| 11:35:19 | Salewski | Was not sure if -S should work at all, will continue investigations. Maybe I can use objdump external program to get a listing from binary. |
| 11:50:54 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> Hello! I'm trying to write an ORM for Nim but facing difficulties. Hope you could help me. ⏎ ⏎ I need to have a way to define model field types. For example, a model "Person" has a field "name," which is a string of max length 100 and is required. So, I need it to be an object an attribute of which is a concrete value, not a type. I need something like this: ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` ⏎ This is of course wrong. But what is |
| 11:50:55 | FromGitter | ... the right way to do it? [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5819d31e0b10738c73fecd77] |
| 11:52:00 | Salewski | Bye, will try later again. |
| 11:52:02 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> I thought about defining a generic Field type and then defining concepts for each particular field kind, but this didn't work. |
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| 11:56:45 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> I'm thinking that defining a type that consists of a single value is a viable workaround, but apparently you can't do that. Or can you? |
| 11:59:29 | FromGitter | <endragor> you can make a macro that would process types and their fields, supporting certain pragmas, e.g.: ⏎ ⏎ ```myORM: ⏎ type Name = object ⏎ value {.max: 100, required: true.}: string``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5819d52149891fe7422e4a1b] |
| 12:04:06 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> Gee, I knew I was overlooking something clear and obvious. Couldn't believe a great language like Nim didn't have an elegant solution for my (quite trivial) problem :-) ⏎ ⏎ Thanks a ton, @endragor ! |
| 12:04:41 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> This is exactly what I've been looking for. |
| 12:09:28 | FromGitter | <endragor> you’re welcome. one drawback of that is that such macros are not “stackable" as they have to be immediate. so you can’t have `myORM: jsonSerializable: andGiveMeYamlToo: type MyType = object`. Java/C# annotations work well for those scenarios |
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| 13:12:50 | chemist69 | moigagoo: when you have the macro working, would you mind to share it here? |
| 13:13:28 | chemist69 | I am still not ready to tackle them and would love see this example. |
| 13:13:54 | chemist69 | I guess for your task a simple init proc won't fit your needs: proc initName(value: string): Name = result = Name(value: value, required: true, max: 100) |
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| 13:16:07 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> I've taken this variant into account, too, but it still isn't quite what I want. |
| 13:16:11 | FromGitter | <endragor> what do you mean by “processing” here, exactly? store what you need in a data structure defined in the orm module. |
| 13:17:00 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> I'm having huge difficulties explaining what I'm trying to achieve here, sorry. |
| 13:17:42 | FromGitter | <endragor> macros can produce code that stores data in run-time, when program starts to run. some data can also be stored in compile-time. |
| 13:20:24 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> I think the main problem is that I don't have a clear picture on how to do the task. That's why I can't explain it, and that's why I'm confused whereas there's no good reason for it. |
| 13:21:32 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> So, I'll spend a few more hours thinking about it :-) Maybe it'll come to me eventually. |
| 13:21:34 | FromGitter | <endragor> well start with defining the task :) proper problem statement should be the half of the solution. |
| 13:21:46 | flyx | moigagoo: what about predefining a `type StringField[Max, Required] = object[val: string]` and then using it like `StringField[100, true]` |
| 13:22:07 | flyx | generic params are compile-time values, so this should be fine |
| 13:22:32 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> Wait, you can pass values as generic params? |
| 13:22:49 | flyx | er, sure. what do you think array[5, int] does? |
| 13:23:03 | * | chemist69 is frantically testing flyx code |
| 13:23:12 | flyx | I am, however, not sure if it works for booleans |
| 13:24:10 | FromGitter | <endragor> I don’t think you can. array[5, int] is a special thing |
| 13:24:54 | flyx | well I would be sad if this doesn't work generally |
| 13:24:58 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> You can't: ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5819e929c28f8aa804b7100f] |
| 13:26:10 | flyx | the link doesn't work for some reason |
| 13:26:34 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> I've deleted the messages seconds after posting it. |
| 13:26:57 | flyx | whoever thought that would be a good feature for a group chat |
| 13:27:23 | flyx | so did you manage to get it working? |
| 13:27:30 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> Nope |
| 13:27:46 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> The syntax you proposed didn't work. |
| 13:29:03 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> I tried simplifying it, still without success: ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5819ea1f40419f802074b6d7] |
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| 13:29:47 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> If I replace Max with T and treat it as type, all works fine. |
| 13:30:12 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> But that's just regular generic type, not quite the thing. |
| 13:32:22 | flyx | that's a shame |
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| 13:33:43 | flyx | well I can tell you what I do with NimYAML. just have `type Name = object[val: string]` and then `template max(t: typedesc[Name]): int = 100` |
| 13:34:16 | flyx | you can generate the template with a macro like `setMax(Name, 100)` |
| 13:34:42 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> How to you make it work? ```type Name = object[val: string]``` Is this valid syntax? I can't compile this one line. |
| 13:35:06 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> *do you |
| 13:35:18 | flyx | I just use this shorthand to fit it in one line |
| 13:35:24 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> Oh, ok. |
| 13:35:27 | flyx | just break val: string into a separate line |
| 13:35:48 | flyx | it's derived from the tuple[...] notation which works, so I though object[...] may work too |
| 13:36:42 | flyx | anyway, the point is to generate templates that are callable at compile time on the type and return the desired values |
| 13:38:10 | flyx | with some magic, you can even use this if you have an object which represents a whole table, i.e. `type Person = object \\ name: string \\ age: int` |
| 13:38:45 | flyx | and you can then do `setMaxLength(Person, name, 100)` or `setMax(Person, age, 100)` |
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| 13:39:57 | flyx | which is what NimYAML does, e.g. for marking fields as transient (= do not serialize) and, as mentioned, setting default values |
| 13:41:20 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> Thanks for the detailed explanation! I'll try it. |
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| 13:43:10 | flyx | you can also generate these templates by giving the whole type into a macro and process declarative pragmas, which is kind of what endragor suggested |
| 13:45:27 | flyx | Araq: is general support planned for values as generic parameters? |
| 13:46:52 | Araq | static[T] ? |
| 13:47:56 | flyx | oh |
| 13:47:58 | flyx | let me try that |
| 13:50:41 | flyx | moigagoo, chemist69: this works: https://gist.github.com/flyx/8a928f1196b26b1658845ee1b52a39c4 |
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| 13:51:35 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> Cool! |
| 13:52:51 | chemist69 | REEAAALLLYYY Cool! Thanks flyx! |
| 13:53:35 | chemist69 | that one goes straight into my snippets collection! |
| 13:55:40 | Araq | can you put this snippets collection online? |
| 13:57:02 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> +1 |
| 13:57:12 | chemist69 | most of them are pretty simple, since I consider myself a beginner Nim user. |
| 13:57:41 | chemist69 | and the collection is not yet that large (but it's growing). |
| 13:57:46 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> Which makes it extremely useful to other beginners ;-) |
| 13:58:09 | chemist69 | yeah, I saw that one coming ;) I will think about it. |
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| 14:02:57 | chemist69 | Araq: would it be a good idea to start a snippets repository centrally on nim-lang, where users can submit useful snippets, either for addressing a certain task or for implementing and idiom? |
| 14:03:14 | chemist69 | *an idiom |
| 14:03:39 | federico3 | a repo under github/nim-lang/... ? |
| 14:03:44 | chemist69 | yes |
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| 14:05:35 | Araq | A repo or a document with 'edit' button? :-) |
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| 14:06:03 | euantor | Ideally it would be easy to search whatever it ends up being |
| 14:06:13 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> So a document :-) |
| 14:06:51 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> Don't know if it's relevant, but Rosetta Code is somewhat a library of Nim snippets http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Nim |
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| 14:08:01 | FromGitter | <moigagoo> But there collecting problem solutions, not idioms, so it's not a substitute for what @chemist69 proposes. |
| 14:10:22 | chemist69 | also the problem set on rosettacode is limited. |
| 14:11:50 | chemist69 | I had thought of small standalone programs with meaningful names that would be submitted by PRs. But searching is definitely a problem, then |
| 14:13:28 | chemist69 | a document with an edit button that could even be part of the official documentation would be another option. |
| 14:16:12 | chemist69 | I don't know if me putting some snippets online somewhere where nobody will find it will help very much. But it could be a start. |
| 14:19:29 | chemist69 | new thought: put it on the wiki! |
| 14:21:04 | Araq | no, it needs to be a living document. I will come up with something |
| 14:22:25 | Araq | I'll patch the docgen to extract .. code-block:: nim snippets and make it part of the CI |
| 14:22:43 | Araq | when we link to it from the official site, we need to ensure the stuff keeps compiling |
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| 14:25:52 | euantor | I really like how Rust's compiler does that with examples in documentation |
| 14:27:47 | euantor | https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/book/documentation.html#documentation-as-tests |
| 14:28:23 | chemist69 | Araq: that sounds great and would be very useful, I think! |
| 14:33:27 | flyx | Araq: that will be cool. currently, I have the code snippets for NimYAML doc in own files to be able to test them and include those files in the rst |
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| 15:08:12 | vlad1777d | Hello to all. Are marking variable with star "*" and instruction (operator) export doing the same thing? Or there is some specific? |
| 15:11:38 | vlad1777d | And is here analog to goto operation? |
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| 15:24:04 | Araq | vlad1777d: there is no goto and I don't understand your other question. |
| 15:24:29 | Araq | * is the export marker, syntactically a postfix operator except that Nim has no postfix operators in other contexts |
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| 15:32:05 | vlad1777d | Araq, I mean, are the """var a = "sadfdf"; export a""" and """var a* = "sadfdf"""" the same things? |
| 15:32:43 | Araq | no, export is only to export symbols in a foreign module |
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| 15:33:25 | vlad1777d | Araq, thank you |
| 15:35:43 | pigmej | hm, is nimsuggest now again part of nim ? |
| 15:37:07 | Araq | yes |
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| 15:43:21 | pigmej | thx |
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| 16:04:02 | libman | Does advocacy discussion go in this channel or #nim-offtopic? |
| 16:04:14 | Araq | it's hardly offtopic |
| 16:05:03 | * | libman is very aware that so far I've contributed nothing but some mix of Nim advocacy and annoyance. |
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| 16:06:05 | libman | As this channel grows, maybe a separate logged #nim-advocacy channel would be a good idea. |
| 16:06:49 | Araq | no, you also reported a bug |
| 16:07:03 | Araq | and we got a PR that fixes it :-) |
| 16:07:14 | libman | I am wondering if Nim has any particular advocacy "selling points" for blockchain-based development. |
| 16:10:00 | flyx | what's „blockchain-based development“? |
| 16:10:12 | libman | There should be more to my future lifelong "Libertarian Software Philosophy" project than just nagging about permissive licenses... ;) |
| 16:10:31 | libman | http://blockgeeks.com/guides/what-is-blockchain-technology-a-step-by-step-guide-than-anyone-can-understand/ |
| 16:10:48 | flyx | I know what a blockchain is |
| 16:10:49 | libman | Anarchist Apps. |
| 16:10:57 | flyx | I asked what blockchain-based development is |
| 16:11:07 | flyx | you use a blockchain to develop something… in what way? what for? |
| 16:11:57 | libman | No specifics yet, but some top projects in this paradigm include Bitcoin, Ethereum, and IPFS. |
| 16:12:21 | krux02 | "pacman-mirrors -g" actually does wonders |
| 16:12:27 | flyx | so you mean like development of software which uses blockchains in some way? |
| 16:12:31 | krux02 | my update now ran in just a few seconds |
| 16:13:01 | krux02 | sorry wrong channel XD |
| 16:13:43 | libman | I probably used bad terminology with "blockchain-based development". |
| 16:14:18 | krux02 | libman: blockchain is for me this bitcoin stuff |
| 16:14:49 | flyx | the blockchain is basically a kind of distributed database |
| 16:15:00 | krux02 | blockchain is to bitcoin what internet is to web. |
| 16:15:23 | flyx | I do not see how exactly Nim can be „good“ or „bad“ for implementing or working with blockchains |
| 16:15:27 | libman | I actually never did any blockchain dev. I use IPFS extensively, but haven't yet done anything fancier with it than images, videos, and other immutable blobs. |
| 16:16:41 | Araq | most decisions are made with your guts and afterwards justified with rational reasons |
| 16:16:45 | libman | But that's the direction I'll be going in moving forward. IPFS was sadly implemented in Go, with another implementation in NodeJS. Most coins are in C++. How would one persuade people that Nim is an ideal language for such projects? |
| 16:17:13 | Araq | skip the rational reasons altogether and just use Nim :-) |
| 16:17:31 | krux02 | that nodejs guy probably forgot that there is a go to javascript cross compiler |
| 16:17:39 | libman | I wanna persuade smart devs in my community to use Nim. |
| 16:18:17 | krux02 | I think that nim can only shine, when it is used in an area where it truely is better than established languages |
| 16:18:31 | flyx | then argue with general things about Nim. asking about „how is Nim good for developing blockchains“ is just far too specific to yield a sensible answer |
| 16:18:59 | krux02 | flyx, or too general |
| 16:19:10 | libman | It's very hard for Nim to compete with Go. Go has a huge lead in copyfree crypto libs. And I can't really argue Nim's net performance benefits until it beats Go in TechEmpower. |
| 16:19:34 | krux02 | nim is great for a specific style of development, not for specific problems |
| 16:20:50 | libman | Specific problems have specific needs: language features, libraries, etc. |
| 16:20:59 | cheatfate | libman, because of go i'm not using ipfs and also i do not trust in it |
| 16:21:11 | krux02 | libman: Honestly I think it would be great if nim and Go could be used interchangeably, like java and scala |
| 16:21:24 | libman | cheatfate: That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. :D |
| 16:21:48 | krux02 | go has modules, and go module interfaces could be translated to interact with nim |
| 16:22:03 | krux02 | so that in the end nim could benefit from the go ecosystem |
| 16:22:44 | libman | krux02: I brought this up when Rust (and more recently Go for 2.0) talked about intermediate representation. I see "ecosystem fragmentation" as a huge problem in free software. |
| 16:24:00 | krux02 | yes there should be some language independent modules |
| 16:24:49 | libman | That's a separate discussion. |
| 16:25:46 | krux02 | But the problem with that is also, that as soon as you get too much into detail there, you end up with something like .net, where you are free to define your classes, but how classes are implemented and that you have to use classes is already decided for you |
| 16:26:09 | libman | I'd love to learn cheatfate's Nim>Go advocacy arguments and vigorously spread them. (Programming projects will finally become a priority for me after the Nov 8 election.) |
| 16:27:05 | cheatfate | libman, i'm also have private crypto nim library :) |
| 16:27:06 | libman | I need to commit to a language, and I've gone back and forth between Nim and Go countless times over the past few years... |
| 16:27:19 | krux02 | honestly, I think all features of go can be represented in Nim somehow, and when everything from go is represented in Nim, the step to automatically import Go modules into Nim would be just the next step |
| 16:27:47 | krux02 | I don't go back to Go |
| 16:27:52 | krux02 | it's neat, but that's it |
| 16:28:41 | libman | cheatfate: in my metaphysics, digital assets that aren't public and copyfree don't really exist. :P (joking) |
| 16:28:55 | Araq | I thought about a Go backend fwiw |
| 16:30:11 | libman | Last night I wrote: "I think making Nim targets to PHP, Mono, LLVM, LuaJIT, etc is not a good use of developer time. C and JS/Node.js is enough. Also stdlib contains a lot of optimized code that still only works for the C target." -- https://archive.is/dgaZg#selection-1473.0-1481.96 |
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| 16:33:33 | libman | If LLVM changes to a non-copyfree license, Go might eventually become the highest-performance copyfree Nim target... |
| 16:34:27 | libman | Is Nim's syntax flexibility (i.e. vs Go) an asset or a liability for crypto? |
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| 16:40:55 | * | libman is yet to justify my "weapons of choice" outlined on my non-serious resume - http://libman.org/resume/resume.pdf |
| 16:44:20 | libman | Would Nim be a good competitor for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidity ? |
| 16:44:23 | Calinou | most people think flexible syntax is a bad choice sadly |
| 16:44:35 | Calinou | (see PHP) |
| 16:44:44 | Calinou | (but PHP has bad flexible syntax, not a good one :p) |
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| 16:45:41 | federico3 | php does not exists |
| 16:46:26 | libman | I coded in PHP for the better part of the last 20 years... :~( |
| 16:47:41 | libman | If flexibility is a liability, adding "strictness" settings to Nim should be easy. |
| 16:48:46 | libman | Although I hope for a prettier syntactical approach than stuffing more {.crud.} into proc headers... |
| 16:52:11 | Araq | how is PHP's syntax flexible? o.O |
| 16:52:29 | Araq | it even relies on fucking sigils |
| 16:53:10 | Araq | libman: syntactic flexibility is just that. syntax != semantics |
| 16:53:28 | Araq | it's orthogonal to anything security related |
| 16:54:43 | libman | It's easier to slip an obfuscated mickey in some languages than others. |
| 16:55:36 | Araq | it's also overrated. Sure Nim is flexible but I can read random Nim code just fine and the parsing rules are clear enough. I cannot say the same about Perl, but maybe that's just my ignorance. |
| 16:56:27 | Araq | in practice dynamic vs static typing makes all the difference when reading code. IMO. |
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| 17:01:02 | Araq | ok, maybe C is an exception. It keeps up with surprising syntax that is actually used somehwere: struct x { } typedef; |
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| 17:04:57 | vlad1777d | Perl has awful syntax, as for me. |
| 17:06:19 | vlad1777d | Person, who sees source code first time, if to give him Python's code - he could understand part of it, if to give him source in Perl - no. |
| 17:09:44 | libman | Nim's worst syntax idea for me is the {.pragmas.}. They fall into different categories. For example, some are settings (overwritng nim.cfg and `nim` command line) applied at proc level. It would be better to have a mechanism for overwriting ant setting at compile time on global, module, or local (proc) basis. |
| 17:10:40 | libman | *overwriting ANY setting |
| 17:13:28 | flyx | are you complaining about the syntax or the semantics? |
| 17:14:32 | flyx | syntax is a bit strange, but semantics are pretty similar to most other pragma systems, and almost every compiled language has one. |
| 17:15:02 | libman | We should all spare Araq our syntax complaining. Everyone should just make their own Nim "skin". I've been pondering lots of crazy ideas for this. |
| 17:15:50 | flyx | that does not sound like something worth investing time in |
| 17:15:56 | flyx | for me, anyway |
| 17:16:19 | enthus1ast | libman what is "an obfuscated mickey"? |
| 17:17:40 | enthus1ast | cloaked Mickey Mouse? :) |
| 17:17:48 | libman | The libman-flavored Nim would have much-uncluttered proc headings, with a keyword for setting proc-level settings and variables that can be overwritten by the proc caller. :P |
| 17:18:11 | libman | enthus1ast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Finn_(drugs) |
| 17:19:41 | enthus1ast | what would we do without drugs :) |
| 17:20:08 | libman | In that context it meant writing a library that contains malicious code, like weakening the crypto. |
| 17:24:23 | libman | My Nim skin would also allow avoiding repetitive keywords, like = assignment operator defaulting to var, ≗ to let, and ≛ to const. |
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| 17:28:43 | libman | And prefixing assignment operator with : would mean this assignment is overwritable by proc caller (equivalent of proc argument with default value). |
| 17:30:50 | libman | And * module-level identifier suffix would have the opposite meaning (marking it as private). But this is all a tangent - I'll write it up for the forum someday. |
| 17:33:46 | libman | This tangent was inspired by the idea that, if syntax flexibility is a liability, Nim just needs settings / pragmas to disable certain features. |
| 17:35:25 | pigmej | BlaXpirit: any idea why your nim-random fails with `proc randomInt[RNG, ](rng: var RNG; T: typedesc[SomeInteger]): T:type` on your example? |
| 17:36:17 | BlaXpirit | pigmej, more details please? |
| 17:37:52 | pigmej | BlaXpirit: I'm trying to compile your example https://github.com/BlaXpirit/nim-random#example |
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| 17:38:08 | pigmej | http://ix.io/1BL8 |
| 17:38:32 | pigmej | and that's the error output (except first line which should be my message but autopaste....) |
| 17:42:37 | pigmej | ok works when I pass rng explicit |
| 17:44:36 | BlaXpirit | pigmej, i have no idea, everything seems to work |
| 17:44:52 | BlaXpirit | must be a clash with standard library |
| 17:46:08 | pigmej | I had to modify your example like |
| 17:46:11 | pigmej | http://ix.io/1BLk |
| 17:46:16 | BlaXpirit | i didnt have to modify it |
| 17:46:17 | pigmej | it's only part but you get the idea for sure :) |
| 17:46:20 | pigmej | weird |
| 17:46:33 | pigmej | `Nim Compiler Version 0.15.2`? |
| 17:47:14 | BlaXpirit | yes but i am not using nimble, so that's probably it |
| 17:47:34 | BlaXpirit | maybe for me my library takes precedence but for you standard library takes precedence |
| 17:47:45 | pigmej | yeah it may be the case |
| 17:47:47 | pigmej | I'm using nimble |
| 17:47:56 | BlaXpirit | welp that's a problem |
| 17:48:07 | BlaXpirit | i will have to rename the lib |
| 17:48:15 | pigmej | aaaaarandom?:D |
| 17:48:30 | BlaXpirit | i have no better ideas |
| 17:49:28 | pigmej | I wonder why I can import random.mersenne properly IF std lib takes precedence.. |
| 17:49:50 | BlaXpirit | well because there is no ambiguity i guess |
| 17:51:09 | PMunch | Thanks for the help yesterday dom96 :) We were competing in an IoT challenge |
| 17:51:21 | dom96 | PMunch: cool, how did it go? |
| 17:51:25 | pigmej | BlaXpirit: maybe... |
| 17:51:27 | PMunch | Nim was actually surprisingly easy to get working on the RPi |
| 17:51:45 | PMunch | dom96, pretty good, placed second and won an RPi 2 |
| 17:52:05 | dom96 | PMunch: nice |
| 17:52:14 | dom96 | PMunch: what did you make? |
| 17:52:44 | PMunch | Well, the competition was made up of "badges" that scored you points and were handed out for completing different goals |
| 17:53:29 | dom96 | BlaXpirit: thank you for taking the time to maintain your library and help people who are having trouble with it. I know it sucks that the standard library now clashes with the name of it :\ |
| 17:53:33 | PMunch | We made a system were the RPi was serving a web-page. Then when you clicked a button it started reading pages off an NFC card and blinked the light once for every page. |
| 17:54:21 | PMunch | That scored us the "useless solution" badge along with a badge for using multiple devices and multiple languages |
| 17:54:28 | dom96 | hah |
| 17:54:38 | dom96 | Sounds like a fun competition. |
| 17:54:47 | PMunch | Yeah it was a lot of fun :) |
| 17:57:15 | enthus1ast | PMunch where do you do such competitions? |
| 17:57:36 | PMunch | It was a company that visited our university which organized it |
| 17:58:04 | dom96 | PMunch: what company was it? |
| 18:00:24 | PMunch | A Norwegian company called Computas |
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| 19:31:21 | FromGitter | <johnscillieri> Any suggestions on the best way to sum the fields of a tuple of floats? |
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| 20:07:44 | krux02 | I know I asked this question in the past, but I do not remember if there was a solution to my problem. |
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| 20:08:25 | krux02 | Is there a solution to the problem that the editor shows error messages for files that are meant to be included in a different context? |
| 20:09:15 | krux02 | for example {.includedFrom "main.nim".} |
| 20:13:13 | Araq | krux02: the compiler uses a comment for this |
| 20:13:31 | Araq | I mean in the compiler's source code we use comments for this |
| 20:13:45 | Araq | and the VIM plugin knows about them, but no other tool afaik |
| 20:15:41 | krux02 | can the emacs plugin read those comments, too? |
| 20:16:27 | Araq | johnscillieri you should have a seq of floats to begin with but you can use the fieldPairs iterator |
| 20:16:31 | Araq | krux02: no idea |
| 20:16:49 | krux02 | can you give an example of such a comment? |
| 20:17:26 | krux02 | I would like to try it |
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| 20:19:00 | Araq | # included from sem.nim |
| 20:19:15 | BlaXpirit | there are operations like "treats x and y as unsigned and adds them". what exactly is the difference between `+%` and `+` ? |
| 20:25:17 | krux02 | Araq,it does not work, but thank you anyway |
| 20:26:04 | krux02 | BlaXpirit: I asked the exact same question in the past. It is remains from the time, when nim did not have unsigned integers |
| 20:26:40 | BlaXpirit | krux02, well even in that time, what is the difference between them? |
| 20:26:54 | krux02 | cpu flags |
| 20:27:12 | krux02 | for example there is an overflow flag that gets set on overflows |
| 20:27:36 | krux02 | just most of the time nothing is done with it, but the program can be aware of it |
| 20:28:03 | FromGitter | <johnscillieri> Araq, thanks! I need the floats to have names but ill just move to a real object and use fieldPairs in a total proc. |
| 20:28:14 | krux02 | for example as far as I know in Rust an overflow/underflow is an error |
| 20:28:17 | BlaXpirit | i do need operations which ignore overflows but it's a nuisance to use +% because it's defined only for signed types |
| 20:28:29 | BlaXpirit | I'm thinking about just ignoring overflows with a pragma |
| 20:28:42 | BlaXpirit | but is there anything i need to be aware of? |
| 20:29:39 | krux02 | I am not sure if I am telling the truth, but as far as I know, the overflow and underflow behavior of unsigned datatypes is a wanted behavior, and therefore not an error or something like that |
| 20:29:52 | krux02 | meaning you should just use unsigned numbers |
| 20:30:36 | krux02 | I think +% is nothing else than doing the unsigned operation on singed data, meaning casting to unsigend first and then doing + would be no difference |
| 20:30:53 | krux02 | so it's completely not necessary anymore |
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| 20:32:04 | BlaXpirit | toUnsigned(T(0)) - (toUnsigned(T(0)) - toUnsigned(max)) mod toUnsigned(max) |
| 20:32:12 | BlaXpirit | yeah.......... not looking good |
| 20:32:25 | krux02 | what is T |
| 20:32:30 | BlaXpirit | any integer type |
| 20:32:39 | BlaXpirit | [T: SomeInteger] |
| 20:32:45 | krux02 | what do you want to do? |
| 20:33:10 | BlaXpirit | find the highest number divisible by `max` |
| 20:33:22 | BlaXpirit | that fits into T |
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| 20:34:01 | krux02 | in what context? |
| 20:34:21 | krux02 | for me that sounds like an exercise that should not be done in unsigned numbers |
| 20:35:15 | krux02 | unsigned numbers are not for math, and one of the most common pitfalls, is to use unsigned numbers when you think your numbers will all be positive |
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| 20:36:26 | cheatfate | krux02, natural arithmetic is a part of math |
| 20:36:33 | cheatfate | unsigned integers = natural integers |
| 20:36:38 | krux02 | nope |
| 20:37:11 | krux02 | there is a Natural type in nim, that that is by design (and good reason) not an unsigned integer |
| 20:37:23 | cheatfate | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number |
| 20:37:29 | Araq | N is a subset of Z, unsigned int is not a subset of int |
| 20:37:46 | krux02 | I know the subset relation |
| 20:37:50 | Araq | so every conversion between these two causes problems |
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| 20:37:58 | BlaXpirit | i'm not doing math, i'm working with bytes |
| 20:38:13 | Araq | krux02: oh yeah, I'm just paraphrasing what you said |
| 20:38:50 | krux02 | Araq: sorry, I misread the sentence, and I didn't realize it was you who wrote it |
| 20:39:41 | krux02 | I should have said, "thanks, thats a very good point" |
| 20:40:05 | cheatfate | for computer arithmetic signed int is unnatural :) |
| 20:41:30 | cheatfate | and unsigned int is not subset of int only because int has 1 bit less then unsigned |
| 20:41:58 | krux02 | rule of thumb is: Use singed integers whenever you can, if you think unsigned fits better, it doesn't. You need to know that it fits better, and you need to have very good reason. |
| 20:42:37 | Araq | it doesn't matter why the things are as they are. The asymetry causes a whole class of errors for edge cases |
| 20:42:58 | Araq | as does the fact that abs(INT_MIN) is not representable. |
| 20:43:23 | krux02 | cheatfate: that one bit of information is not worth the pain for all the edge cases and errors |
| 20:43:25 | Araq | hopefully soon we'll all use Unums |
| 20:44:04 | cheatfate | Araq, we will never use Unums |
| 20:44:23 | Araq | hardware is in the works already for them |
| 20:44:38 | cheatfate | Araq, yeah supercomputers |
| 20:45:13 | Araq | supercomputers are tomorrow's desktops |
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| 20:45:29 | ldlework | today's mobile phones are yesterdays supercomputers |
| 20:45:29 | Araq | and the day after's cell phones |
| 20:45:35 | krux02 | and all cryptography theory will be worthless as soon as QBits are available |
| 20:46:29 | cheatfate | krux02, are you sure? |
| 20:46:54 | krux02 | pretty much |
| 20:47:16 | cheatfate | krux02, then please go and read something about postquantum crypto... maybe you learn something |
| 20:47:43 | cheatfate | almost all modern symmetric crypto algorithms can't be broken with QBits |
| 20:48:29 | krux02 | ok, maybe I am not up to date |
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| 20:48:57 | cheatfate | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McEliece_cryptosystem invented in 1978 with appropriate key sizes can't be broken with Qbits |
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| 20:50:11 | cheatfate | so please dont tell 'all cryptography theory will be worthless` |
| 20:50:51 | krux02 | ok |
| 20:50:54 | krux02 | I take it back |
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| 20:52:16 | krux02 | sorry |
| 20:53:37 | Salewski | Araq, for assembler listings: Option -S seems not to work with gcc 5.4, but option -save-temps seems to work. |
| 20:53:44 | Salewski | gcc.options.speed = "-save-temps -O3 -fno-strict-aliasing" |
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| 20:54:01 | krux02 | cheatfate, but you are wrong with "int has 1 bit less then unsigned", it has the exact same amount of bits |
| 20:54:20 | krux02 | it has the exact same amount of representable numblers |
| 20:54:46 | cheatfate | krux02, yeah i know, but i must say `value bits` |
| 20:54:57 | krux02 | the subset of ℤ is just shifted |
| 20:56:05 | krux02 | I think the sign bit is primarily a value bit, too. It just has the property, that it can tell you the sign of a number |
| 20:57:25 | krux02 | If it would be the sign bit primarily, I should be able to negate a number by flipping that bit, but that's not possible |
| 20:58:18 | cheatfate | Lets stop this discussion about unsigned/signed... because currently here 2 against 1 |
| 20:58:31 | cheatfate | we can start when we have at least 3vs3 |
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| 20:58:47 | Araq | Salewski: alright. what does the listings tell you? |
| 20:59:05 | krux02 | if we can convert you, we would have already three for the right side |
| 20:59:53 | cheatfate | krux02, you will not convert me |
| 21:00:13 | krux02 | apropos right side, in England the right side is the wrong side, and the right side is the left side. |
| 21:00:53 | Salewski | Araq, have just done a test with a trivial test program to get assembler at all. Will investigate the chess program soon... |
| 21:04:07 | cheatfate | Araq, common Nim's eating all my memory :) |
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| 21:18:17 | Salewski | Araq, I can see only one quiescence_264040_3601934859 in all the assembler files. See http://ssalewski.de/tmp/nim-chess_engine.s |
| 21:18:38 | Salewski | Maybe a bug in callgrind. |
| 21:19:31 | Araq | more likely a feature you don't know about :-) |
| 21:19:40 | cheatfate | Salewski, i dont this its a bug as i saw your report there was `quiescence` and `quiescence'2`, so i think `quiescence'2` is second path of call to this proc |
| 21:20:35 | cheatfate | i think this procedure is called from 2 places and callgrind calculates them as different values |
| 21:20:56 | Salewski | I have already asked google about the '2 -- no results. |
| 21:21:20 | Salewski | cheatfate, what do you mean by second path? |
| 21:21:43 | Salewski | Ah, ok. |
| 21:21:51 | cheatfate | i mean func1->func2->func3->quiscence and func5->func6->quiscence |
| 21:23:25 | Salewski | Yes indeed, quiscence is called from alphabeta, and then quiscence calls itself recursively some times. |
| 21:24:06 | Salewski | I have not expected that that is listed differently by callgrind. |
| 21:24:31 | Araq | Salewski: if you know where your program spends its time. run it in a debugger and press CTRL+C |
| 21:24:38 | cheatfate | Salewski, this recursion can overflow stack rewind algorithm... |
| 21:24:59 | Araq | do it a couple of times and expect the stack traces. Works. |
| 21:26:00 | Araq | *inspect |
| 21:27:41 | Salewski | Araq, I have not used debuggers in the last twenty years, so I have first to find out how to do it with Nim :-) |
| 21:27:59 | Araq | --debugger:native -d:release |
| 21:28:03 | Araq | gdb chess.exe |
| 21:28:05 | Araq | run |
| 21:28:37 | Salewski | OK, that is easy, thanks. |
| 21:30:15 | Salewski | Will try it tomorrow, bye... |
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| 21:46:12 | dyce_ | any idea how to build a osx executable from linux? perhaps https://www.darlinghq.org ? |
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| 21:48:27 | Araq | I wouldn't be surprised if Apple sues you for cross compiling to their sacred cow |
| 21:57:28 | def- | Araq: yep, a common approach is to use a vm, but posting instructions on how to do that will lead to a letter asking you to remove it |
| 21:57:52 | dyce_ | apparently you can just pull an image from vagrant |
| 21:58:53 | dyce_ | https://github.com/AndrewDryga/vagrant-box-osx |
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| 22:03:08 | Calinou | dyce_: OSXCross |
| 22:03:28 | Calinou | it's successfully used for Godot: http://docs.godotengine.org/en/stable/reference/compiling_for_osx.html |
| 22:03:42 | Calinou | in fact, with darling-dmg, you can even build for iOS (but not distribute...): http://docs.godotengine.org/en/stable/reference/cross-compiling_for_ios_on_linux.html |
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| 22:04:25 | Calinou | Araq: cross-compiling is likely legal, using a VM is not |
| 22:04:40 | Calinou | provided you acquired the Xcode SDK legally, which is possible by having an Apple ID |
| 22:05:46 | Calinou | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10335747/how-to-download-xcode-4-5-6-7-8-and-get-the-dmg-or-xip-file#10335943 |
| 22:06:07 | dyce_ | im pretty dissapointed with apple though (since the macbook announcement). if i could get a 2 more year from my macbook ill be happy. then i'll switch to cheaper hardware |
| 22:06:20 | dyce_ | disappointed* |
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| 22:07:15 | Calinou | yeah, no Vulkan support, no OpenGL past 4.1... |
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| 22:20:35 | vlad1777d | I thought that nobody uses Apple's devices. They're too expensive for their possibilities. For such price you could by better hardware from normal company. |
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| 22:26:07 | tinAndi | apple devices are cheaper than android devices (apple - lifetime 4 years including updates) android ( max of 2 years if ever) |
| 22:26:40 | tinAndi | so apple is cheper per years, simple |
| 22:26:46 | tinAndi | cheaper |
| 22:29:47 | Calinou | vlad1777d: MacBooks still have unmatched battery life and input devices (touchpad) |
| 22:30:07 | Calinou | tinAndi: keeping an iDevice 4 years must be painful still :P |
| 22:30:14 | Calinou | most people probably don't keep it more than 2 years |
| 22:30:27 | cheatfate | common this is not a place for holy war ios vs android |
| 22:30:31 | Calinou | also, with ROM flashing, you can update an Android phone for more than 2 years |
| 22:30:45 | cheatfate | stop this please |
| 22:30:56 | tinAndi | for the casual user androif is dead after two years |
| 22:31:02 | tinAndi | android |
| 22:31:26 | tinAndi | ipad2 works after 4 years |
| 22:31:49 | tinAndi | android 4.4 is gone |
| 22:31:58 | cheatfate | tinAndi, please stop this |
| 22:32:01 | tinAndi | it hit he market in 2013 |
| 22:32:07 | tinAndi | okay |
| 22:32:07 | Araq | #nim-offtopic |
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| 22:57:48 | enthus1ast | cheatfate, is was able to detect and delete invalid utf-8 characters with 'validateUtf8' from unicode.nim |
| 22:58:05 | enthus1ast | now chrome happily eats my output |
| 22:58:18 | enthus1ast | i was |
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| 23:00:45 | cheatfate | enthus1ast, but why you think that you have utf8 input? are you sure you have exactly utf8 input? |
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| 23:06:08 | dyce_ | would i be able to use something like macro or template (or maybe a custom pragma?) to add timers to my procs (stdout how long the method took)? |
| 23:06:38 | enthus1ast | cheatfate, actually i'm not, windows cmd tells me it uses codepage '850' whatever this is... |
| 23:06:45 | dyce_ | so i dont have to litter my code |
| 23:06:53 | enthus1ast | it looks like a strange mix |
| 23:10:14 | enthus1ast | i once had a similar issue with windows cmd, switching to a TrueType font was fixing it back then. |
| 23:11:28 | vlad1777d | In manual is written: """type\n Node = ref NodeObj\n NodeObj = object""". How it can Node be a reference of NodeObj, if it was not created yet? |
| 23:11:42 | vlad1777d | Nim's manual: http://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#types-tuples-and-object-types |
| 23:18:37 | enthus1ast | vlad1777d strangely it compiles, the reason would interest me as well |
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| 23:47:05 | vlad1777d | Strange, it's in Ned program too: https://pp.vk.me/c638518/v638518447/899d/hSF7luXlJYo.jpg |
| 23:48:47 | cheatfate | enthus1ast, and this is main problem, nobody knows what encoding you have while speaking with cmd over pipe... |
| 23:58:42 | cheatfate | dyce_, try to look for nimbench |
