<< 21-01-2015 >>

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00:04:13	Araq	recursive dependencies "in general" are not possible and so one has to pick some granularity. Nim didn't even pick the module boundary, but the single type section.
00:05:49	Araq	And there were reasons for this choice.
00:06:14	Araq	I consider them good reasons, you disagree.
00:09:39	ldlework	You haven't mentioned them, at all
00:10:29	ldlework	You just make sweeping generalizations about recursive dependencies in general - with I ultimately agree with, and have advocated in here myself numerous times when talking about entity component systems which are a specific manifestation of that principle
00:10:56	ldlework	I'm annoyed that you're making the argument against the specific boundry we have - with those generalizations about recursive dependencies in general
00:12:23	ldlework	Its a very simple dispute, but everyone else has to jump in with bullshit about learning how to code, or just to stop and consider why recursion is bad, or to really think about the problem. Its stupid and I can see BlaXpirit_'s on-going point about this problem. Its a general problem with public mediums of discourse but it doesn't make it any less ridiculously distracting.
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00:14:46	ldlework	"Well I read the article" 3.5 minutes after it was posted. Its that shit that has me riled up. I don't think the actual technical issue is that extordinary or abstract. Its a practical issue for using something the language supports in only parts. I'm not the only person to run into it, and seeing someone else run into it but having to face no legitimate addressing of his issue just hand-wavy bs, annoyed me as
00:14:48	ldlework	an observer.
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00:18:14	ldlework	In the future, if you still intend on supporting the feature just say so. If you've changed your mind say so. Don't degrade people by telling them they don't understand how to code and if they just had the patience to be as smart as you all their problems would go away.
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00:19:59	BlaXpirit_	wut
00:20:06	flaviu	Araq literally asked for it :P
00:20:17	flaviu	19:09 <Araq> and now silence me and ldlework please, I need to get work done here ffs
00:21:13	ldlework	Better bring up the argument again. Seems legit.
00:23:13	BlaXpirit_	:D
00:23:40	threewood	ldlework seems on the fence. Maybe you guys should vote on it.
00:23:53	BlaXpirit_	threewood, what are u talking about
00:24:06	threewood	I was joking
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01:23:03	flaviu	I'm writing a library, and I'm getting "undeclared conditional symbol; use --symbol to declare it:"
01:23:11	flaviu	is there some way to get rid of that?
01:24:35	def-	flaviu: That warning is temporary and will go away soon, from what I've heard
01:24:47	flaviu	Ok, great!
01:24:55	def-	it was for the declared/defined split
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03:44:47	dtscode	what argument?
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04:12:15	dtscode	hmmm might have found a bug
04:14:10	dtscode	nope im just an idiot
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05:40:50	girvo	hey :)
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05:55:50	reactormonk	morning
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08:20:14	gokr	Morning fellas
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09:03:22	*	gokr notes that Rust is also discussing ml vs forum etc
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09:38:33	ekarlso	gokr: ello
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09:45:33	gokr	Halloj
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09:53:40	keyle	hello
10:06:53	keyle	hm what's the equivalent of python pass again?
10:08:05	gokr	discard?
10:08:24	keyle	ah yes thank you. <blank moment>
10:08:40	keyle	dealing with 4 different languages every day
10:08:48	gokr	Which 4?
10:08:51	ekarlso	keyle: you using nim for work or ?
10:09:08	keyle	python, javascript, typescript and actionscript actually
10:10:02	keyle	I wish I could bring nim in the workplace! hopefully later on.
10:11:03	ekarlso	:P
10:11:20	ekarlso	keyle: heh, js, go, python here :p
10:11:44	keyle	go lost me when I got into channel hell
10:12:04	keyle	it got too funky
10:12:05	ekarlso	heh, i stopped using it though so really just python and js :|
10:12:31	keyle	python is cute. nim is better <3
10:12:59	ekarlso	:p
10:13:25	keyle	did you go ahead with your angular stuff?
10:13:46	ekarlso	yeah
10:13:52	ekarlso	keyle: added JWT also
10:13:58	ekarlso	so user auth works with gituh
10:14:01	ekarlso	.. gh
10:14:04	keyle	still breathing? :P
10:14:15	gokr	I use mainly Smalltalk (some C/C++/ObjC fiddling, bash etc) but we are moving towards Nim.
10:14:24	ekarlso	keyle: yeah ? :p
10:14:33	keyle	gokr: wow smalltalk!
10:14:35	ekarlso	busy with HP stuff atm though :(
10:14:50	ekarlso	I friend is looking at nim for telco stuff atm
10:14:56	ekarlso	will be fun to hear back from him
10:14:56	keyle	gokr: you must be in your 40ies? :)
10:15:03	gokr	Yup :) 45
10:15:33	keyle	nice to see you can be 45 and still caring about languages
10:15:35	ekarlso	gokr: sounds like my dept mngr when he get's excited about playing with stuff in c when he has time off from going to meetings :P
10:15:42	gokr	Been a die hard Smalltalker since 1994 - but of course, a polyglot since Smalltalk was only my day work for a few years in the 1990s. But now, again it is!
10:16:14	gokr	I have programmed in about 25-30 languages I guess. Consultant since 1994.
10:16:23	gokr	Programming since I was 12.
10:16:26	keyle	too many java/.net developer never change
10:16:30	ekarlso	https://nim-pkg.svcs.io:8080
10:16:34	ekarlso	@ keyle
10:16:50	ekarlso	needs lots of more loving though
10:16:55	gokr	I have done my share of both Java (sigh) and C# (better than Java, but only slightly).
10:17:13	keyle	ekarlso: good start
10:17:45	keyle	consultant since '94, as in independant contractor?
10:18:10	gokr	ekarlso: I built a similar thing lots of years back. SqueakMap.
10:18:33	ekarlso	keyle: https://github.com/ekarlso/nim-jwt
10:18:36	ekarlso	if you need auth also :)
10:18:38	gokr	One thing I see immediately: Render emails like "[email protected]" or similar.
10:19:13	gokr	keyle: No, first employed consultant - then 1999-2005 a consultancy firm with some friends.
10:19:22	ekarlso	gokr: why so ?
10:19:24	gokr	Then some other consultant firms - then my own man since 2010.
10:19:49	gokr	ekarlso: Just because people don't want their emails to attract too much spam.
10:20:22	ekarlso	gokr: in your 3d stuff do you guys run in AWS or ?
10:20:34	gokr	Some deployments on EC2, yes.
10:20:55	gokr	We have a big one in Brazil right now, about 10-20 servers depending on load.
10:21:16	gokr	ekarlso: http://map.squeak.org
10:21:51	gokr	No style at all - but you might find some of the views interesting. Like "new stuff last 30 days" or "packages sorted by registration" etc.
10:22:12	gokr	On SqueakMap there is a category tree - instead of tags. Same same, but different.
10:22:26	gokr	Some of those tags may also be interesting: http://map.squeak.org/categoriestree
10:22:30	ekarlso	gokr: well tags are generated out from what users set their package tags to
10:22:49	keyle	gokr: sweet. been running my own dev company since 2010.
10:22:58	gokr	Yeah, SqueakMap instead uses a canonical tree of categories to pick from. Both ideas are good.
10:23:13	gokr	keyle: These days I work 100% 3DICC though.
10:23:55	keyle	ok. Did you jump in the second life bandwagon? :)
10:24:28	gokr	No, our system is quite different.
10:24:54	gokr	But of course, things like SecondLife did bring attention to these kind of tools.
10:24:54	keyle	sorry I don't know much about that world.
10:25:32	gokr	Our product Terf was earlier called Teleplace (reborn now) and Teleplace in turn was a commercialization of the Croquet project.
10:25:53	gokr	Croquet was created by Alan Kay and a few other people.
10:26:30	gokr	The most interesting aspect of Croquet (and the subsequent versions of it) is its model of computation often referred to as Teatime.
10:26:34	keyle	gee
10:27:19	keyle	looking it up on wikipedia
10:27:58	keyle	that stuff was ahead of its time
10:28:24	gokr	I never have had the opportunity to meet Alan - although we participated for many years in the same project (Squeak).
10:28:41	gokr	I do know Dan Ingalls though, which is the "Guido" of Smalltalk.
10:29:00	gokr	Smalltalk has always been ahead of its time :)
10:29:12	keyle	did Dan got involved in squeak?
10:29:22	gokr	Of course, he created it.
10:29:30	keyle	uh oh
10:29:45	gokr	Squeak was born at Apple, Alan and Dan worked there then. Around 1995-ish.
10:30:09	keyle	funny they're doing swift nowadays then
10:30:12	gokr	It was a resurrection of the original Smalltalk-80 that Apple licensed from Xerox.
10:30:21	gokr	There are so many stories to tell.
10:30:48	gokr	Dan did the classic demo of Smalltalk at Xerox PARC - that Steve Jobs saw and got mesmerized by.
10:31:30	keyle	ok :)
10:31:42	gokr	But most developers today aren't interested in the history of programming unfortunately. They just think the latest scripting lang is da shit.
10:32:04	gokr	Although Smalltalk and Lisp have already done all this, and much more, ages ago.
10:32:29	ekarlso	gokr: I am mostly interested ..
10:32:46	ekarlso	when I "started" I did mostly tcl and perl
10:32:53	gokr	Personally though I can say that the Smalltalk community has been a blast to be part of - I mean, jesus, they created so much.
10:33:09	ekarlso	gokr: is smalltalk still used ? :p
10:33:14	gokr	For example, when one newbie was asking why the radio button widget behaved in a certain way in Squeak, a bunch of years back...
10:33:43	gokr	...and Ted Kaehler replied why. And the newbie responded something about it being strange etc. Thing is - Ted *invented* radio buttons.
10:34:00	gokr	Yup, it is still used.
10:34:10	ekarlso	gokr: in new projects as well or ?
10:34:18	gokr	The Pharo open source Smalltalk is the most popular right now. See pharo.org
10:34:18	keyle	at least he named it after where it came from... radio buttons
10:34:24	gokr	yep
10:34:34	keyle	and not Ted's button
10:34:37	keyle	:)
10:36:36	gokr	Yes, in new and modern stuff. Smalltalk still beats the crap out of all of Ruby/Python etc when it comes to productivity and meta capabilities and IDE etc etc.
10:36:36	keyle	Languages get waves of mob. Smalltalk may still be superb for its age but the mob is writing npm packages by the dozen in nodejs...
10:36:36	gokr	Thing is - there have been so many, many languages...
10:36:36	keyle	so the old must make place for the new and the wheel gets reinvented
10:36:36	gokr	Smalltalk persists because it has some unique aspects to it.
10:36:47	gokr	But at the same time the Python, Ruby (complete ripoff of Smalltalk), js and so on - borrow from Smalltalk.
10:38:20	gokr	Either way, every developer should try Smalltalk at some point - understand it. It makes you more complete.
10:38:30	ekarlso	gokr: :P
10:38:42	gokr	Since there are things there that aren't in many other places.
10:39:30	gokr	For example, the image concept, the immersiveness of the environment, the minimalism of the language itself and so on.
10:39:36	gokr	The tools.
10:39:44	keyle	yeah lisp was an eye opener for me
10:40:08	gokr	Lisp has similar qualities, indeed. Smalltalk also has a lot of Lisp feel in several areas.
10:40:23	keyle	but I didn't jump the fence and stick the finger to the mainstream languages
10:40:40	gokr	Smalltalk was mainstream in 1990-95.
10:41:00	gokr	It was battling with C++ for the OO mindshare.
10:41:24	keyle	I was battling with autoexec and command.sys to get my games to run properly :)
10:42:57	gokr	But sometimes I do feel like a Martian here in #nim for sure. Nim and Smalltalk are... hehe. So extremely different - and at some level - still similar since they both actually do try to make life easier for the programmer.
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10:43:28	gokr	However - Smalltalk as 6 keywords. Nim? A gazillion? :)
10:46:33	gokr	But its in that friction zone I hope things will get interesting.
10:46:34	keyle	sometimes a language has less keywords but do more with them... that increases the learning curve when a keyword has different meanings no?
10:46:34	gokr	They are "super, self, true, false, nil and thisContext". They are definitely not hard to grasp :)
10:46:34	gokr	The first 5 you already know what they are - the last one you almost never use.
10:47:12	gokr	I can teach complete Smalltalk in 5 slides. I have done it - and cross checked it against the grammar.
10:47:34	gokr	Thing is - the rest are in the libraries.
10:48:07	gokr	So I am not saying you are a good Smalltalk developer after 5 slides :) - but you have the tools to read and understand Smalltalk code.
10:50:03	gokr	Nim has a different take. Its very complex, we can't claim otherwise. But IMHO much of it can be "ignored" if you don't use it.
10:50:31	gokr	So you can write fairly simple code - and its readable.
10:50:57	keyle	yeah I do get lost in nim atm, ... async/await/asyncheck/runforever() stuff is not well explained imho
10:51:18	keyle	then there is all the {. stuff .} which is also well documented, in the mind of somebody.
10:51:38	keyle	but I'm hoping that this is only a transition phase.
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10:51:50	gokr	The asynch stuff - yeah. Even if its documented it can lead to fairly complicated code IMHO.
10:52:05	gokr	Personally I like a forking server just fine.
10:52:13	gokr	Then I can write code that blocks if it wants too.
10:52:17	keyle	golang's channels had me perplexed at first and then hating my code to death once it grew
10:52:25	keyle	minimalistic hell
10:52:30	gokr	Did you see my forking socket server I wrote?
10:52:41	keyle	eh no?
10:53:03	gokr	You can find all my Nim articles here: http://goran.krampe.se/category/nim/
10:53:08	gokr	See the one from oct 25.
10:53:14	gokr	"Nim Socket Server"
10:53:50	keyle	so many articles go unnoticed because googling nim or nimrod just yields irrelevant stuff
10:54:01	gokr	Since Nim has a very good threadpool - I personally see no harm in writing a forking server. It works quite fine.
10:54:12	gokr	keyle: I know, I am setting up a planet Nim.
10:54:12	keyle	someone should categorize all of this and put it on the main site as /medias or coverage or something.
10:54:40	gokr	I did set one up this weekend - but I think I will switch to another software for it - so its not up yet.
10:55:24	gokr	The first experiment is here (using Pluto): http://padme.krampe.se/planetnim/nim.html
10:55:32	gokr	But I will switch to Venus I think.
10:55:38	Triplefox	"planet nim" sounds very sci-fi
10:56:02	gokr	I would like this visual style of it: http://www.go-mono.com/monologue/
10:56:07	Triplefox	earth to nim...come in nim... *theramin*
10:56:10	gokr	That's the mono people's planet.
10:56:54	gokr	Triplefox: One of my articles is called "Squeak to Nim, Come in Nim..."
10:56:59	Triplefox	hehe
10:57:38	keyle	so many good articles I never saw
10:57:47	ekarlso	geh, couldn't my openstack work atm so I could do more nim :p
10:58:06	gokr	keyle: One of them is linked from nim-lang.org, but only one.
10:58:34	keyle	thanks, some fine bed time reading in those
10:58:49	ekarlso	wonder how hard it would be with websockets for nim
10:59:08	keyle	ekarlso: onionhammer has a websocket server impl
10:59:20	keyle	on github
10:59:55	ekarlso	kewl :)
11:00:28	gokr	Btw... I didn't know it was this easy to run O<cough>SX in virtualbox on Ubuntu.
11:00:53	keyle	some friends run hackintosh
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11:01:18	keyle	I agree with them... Apple hardware is just silly expensive for a powerful box
11:01:35	keyle	I use UE4, it'd be hell on mac.
11:01:56	gokr	sure. I have an MBP, and its a great machine, but... I want to virtualize.
11:02:23	gokr	I can't tie up that little thing of beauty - as a build slave. That would be... insane :)
11:02:45	gokr	Much better to watch Netflix on it.
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12:11:01	keyle	is there a way with strutils.split to split on multiple characters?
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13:37:34	def-	If keyle comes back, strutils.split works on a set of characters, like {'a'..'e','z'}
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14:13:48	kokozedman	hey guys, in selectors, why is EvError been removed?
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14:20:32	kokozedman	branch master doesn't have it ... devel branch has it though, yet, documentation has EvError
14:20:37	kokozedman	confusing
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15:16:02	gmpreussner	Varriount: you around?
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16:38:19	EXetoC	can't use 'range' as a generic parameter, right?
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17:05:38	matkuki	How is range used in Nim?
17:08:25	matkuki	Oh, it's used in declerations.
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17:11:51	EXetoC	a type, yes
17:11:52	*	j3rky is now known as gmpreussner|work
17:13:29	EXetoC	annotated with 'magic', but the documentation doesn't show that
17:17:43	matkuki	It's just a little weird when coming from Python, so I thought it should "for x in range[0..20]"
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18:10:40	gmpreussner|work	does anyone know of any attempts to create a plug-in framework?
18:11:20	Varriount|Busy	gmpreussner|work: Nope, although I don't think it would be too hard.
18:12:01	Varriount|Busy	Invoke a function from a DLL that returns an array of structs with procedure references.
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18:26:22	AndChat38369	.
18:26:34	AndChat38369	What's wrong with the forum?
18:27:35	ekarlso	any API dudes here ?
18:27:43	flyx	hi folks. I didn't follow nim development for some time, I see there has been some renaming
18:27:56	flyx	has hungarian notation been abandoned?
18:28:25	sillesta	there was hungarian notation once?
18:28:28	*	sillesta shudders
18:29:52	gmpreussner|work	Varriount|Busy: i meant to ask you something else earlier....
18:30:10	gmpreussner|work	i started using Sublime with your Nim plugin and like it very much
18:30:23	gmpreussner|work	i was wondering whether you also use Sublime for debugging with SublimeGDB
18:34:55	Varriount|Busy	gmpreussner|work: No, I don't. I didn't even know there was a plugin for integration with GDB
18:35:01	EXetoC	flyx: hungarian? when?
18:35:05	EXetoC	sillesta: both types of hungarian?
18:35:12	flyx	the P and T things
18:35:18	EXetoC	oh
18:35:22	Varriount|Busy	AndChat38369: DNS issues
18:35:40	EXetoC	flyx: yes, because the first char is now case sensitive
18:35:45	flyx	oh
18:35:45	AndChat38369	Varriount.. I meant the sort order is wrong
18:35:50	gmpreussner|work	Varriount|Busy: yeah, there is. i didn't have enough time to set it up this morning, but I think it will work. i was hoping you already had some working configuration files, but I'll just go through it myself then :)
18:36:13	sillesta	EXetoC: HTHISTYPE
18:36:14	EXetoC	so that common complaint regarding grepping is still relevant
18:36:34	Varriount|Busy	AndChat38369: No it isn't. We had... trouble with someone posting on old threads. Their posts were deleted, but the 'last update time' wasn't changed.
18:36:46	gmpreussner|work	Varriount|Busy: i tried the GDB plug-in for Kate, but it has an issue that breaks usage with Nim. I've talked to the author, but we haven't been able to figure out what's wrong yet. so i'm going to switch to Sublime for the time being.
18:37:32	AndChat38369	If the post is deleted it should re-sort imo
18:37:59	EXetoC	I assume that's the intended behavior
18:38:06	Varriount|Busy	AndChat38369: I don't know exactly how the forum works. For all I know, it might re-sort if the forum executable is restart
18:38:09	Varriount|Busy	*restarted
18:38:25	Varriount|Busy	AndChat38369: We would love any help with the forum software.
18:38:58	AndChat38369	Ok. At least right now it looks broken and doesn't make a good impression.
18:39:11	*	AndChat38369 is now known as vbtt
18:39:51	Varriount|Busy	vbtt: Well, it's only broken in, like, 3 places, so it's not *that* noticable
18:40:55	vbtt	More than 3
18:41:51	Varriount|Busy	gmpreussner|work: If you have any suggestions for the sublime plugin, or find any bugs, let me or onionhammer know via github
18:42:35	gmpreussner|work	Varriount|Busy: will do, thanks!
18:42:43	Varriount|Busy	gmpreussner|work: Actually, you might want to use the latest version available on github, rather than the one through package control.
18:42:59	Varriount|Busy	We've been meaning to do another releasing, but keep forgetting.
18:43:05	gmpreussner|work	yeah, i cloned the Github branch directly
18:43:20	vbtt	And what's with the rust haters.
18:43:50	Varriount|Busy	vbtt: That was the trouble we were dealing with.
18:44:18	vbtt	Yeah glad it's being dealt with.
18:44:29	EXetoC	down with Rust woooooooooo j/k
18:45:22	Varriount|Busy	vbtt: Just ignore all the posts made by 'Nikki'
18:45:41	vbtt	Haha yeah I already replied to one.
18:45:46	Varriount|Busy	>_<
18:45:52	vbtt	Won't do that again
18:48:15	Varriount|Busy	Anyone have good resources regarding assembly language, especially the x86 vs x64 differences?
18:49:25	EXetoC	he did say something constructive
18:49:44	dyu	anyone know the equivalent of list.clear() for nim's seq?
18:49:58	Varriount|Busy	dyu: setLen(0)
18:50:03	dyu	thanks
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18:56:42	def-	Strange, DNS for nim-lang.org not working again =/
19:22:41	BlaXpirit	lol
19:23:03	BlaXpirit	i was so happy when i somehow managed to install nimble on windows
19:23:11	BlaXpirit	but then... "FAILURE: 'git' not in PATH."
19:23:13	BlaXpirit	of course
19:23:36	BlaXpirit	but why is git necessary? it is easy to just download a zip from github and be done with it
19:25:24	def-	BlaXpirit: not sure, but maybe for the version tags?
19:25:47	def-	so you can tag a commit as 1.0 and then get [email protected]
19:26:00	BlaXpirit	uhh, of course, supporting git in general is nice
19:26:09	BlaXpirit	but github can be specialcased to not require git
19:26:19	def-	i guess
19:27:16	BlaXpirit	there is probably some API and even parsing a page like this is trivial https://github.com/flaviut/nre/releases
19:31:52	def-	i think it's cleaner not to special case github or any other site
19:32:25	BlaXpirit	ok but windows users arent gonna care
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19:34:42	fizzbooze_	can someone explain the "parallel" keyword to me? i find the section in the documentation a bit lacking
19:36:39	def-	fizzbooze_: i haven't used it, so i can't explain. but have you looked at the tests in here?: https://github.com/Araq/Nim/tree/devel/tests/parallel
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19:38:25	fizzbooze_	thanks
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20:27:53	ldlework	EXetoC: do you recommend https://github.com/EXetoC/nim-glfw
20:35:42	EXetoC	ldlework: yes
20:36:50	EXetoC	the event handling is more straightforward than what you have in SDL
20:36:50	BlaXpirit	is destroy required for every object?
20:37:01	EXetoC	BlaXpirit: no
20:37:40	BlaXpirit	ah, there is only one object
20:37:52	BlaXpirit	that needs destroying, at least
20:38:09	EXetoC	ldlework: but I don't know of any high level SDL interfaces, which would probably simplify that aspect
20:38:31	EXetoC	I should tweak the init proc though
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20:42:23	EXetoC	BlaXpirit: actually, I'm not sure what you're asking. a 'destroy' proc will be optional, but I assume it will be invoked for every instance that is to be destroyed
20:42:44	EXetoC	*is optional
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21:54:54	ekarlso	who controls dns ? :)
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22:05:11	BlaXpirit	illuminati
22:06:11	Triplefox	jon blow's latest has an interesting construct of a "using" keyword like a more powerful Pascal-style "with" that lets you quickly refactor data layout https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHqFrNyLlpA&feature=youtu.be
22:06:17	*	bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
22:06:22	Triplefox	the key use-case for his version of using is to split up an object into "cold" and "hot" subsets(where "hot" is smaller and iterated on more), refer to the fields at a high level as a compound object, and then be able to rearrange which one is used where
22:08:15	flaviu	Triplefox: Can you post a tl:dr? I don't have time to watch a 90 minute video right now.
22:09:41	Triplefox	his first example is to take something like entity.position, declare "using entity.position" in an earlier statement and then access the x, y, z fields without typing entity.position.x - that's the familiar part
22:10:06	Triplefox	he also lets you put that in the function declaration's arguments
22:10:27	Triplefox	then he lets you put using in an object's type declaration
22:11:03	Triplefox	so you can have EntityHot, EntityCold, and then Entity ("using" pointers to EntityHot, EntityCold)
22:11:55	Triplefox	now if you want to bundle EntityHot in an array somewhere for cache-friendly behavior you can do it without forcing random access uses to change
22:12:53	Triplefox	"entity." will behave the same way no matter which things are in EntityHot or EntityCold
22:15:04	Triplefox	separately, but in related performance concerns, he also adds a word for declaring an array to be an array of structs, or a struct of arrays, so that you don't have to refactor all the code if you want one or the other
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22:27:24	keyle	def-: thanks will try that again but it threw some nasty stuff
22:28:54	Triplefox	his last idea, which hasn't been implemented or even fully designed, is something to automate the replication of values so that one might be maintaining a copy of some data in both EntityCold and EntityHot and achieve performant lookups for both
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22:35:38	def-	keyle: show me the errors, should be fixable
22:36:38	keyle	def-: at work, will do it in now+7hrs
22:38:07	keyle	gokr: the mailing list looks good, but the freelist not working with gmail is a big downer. I'd look at other mailing list options if possible. Something like mailman setup?
22:38:37	keyle	basically whatever the linux community uses... which has tons of software support.
22:38:54	gokr	keyle: I know, it was... an oddity I didn't expect :) But I am not sure its freelists fault, it almost sounds like gmail does this somehow.
22:39:11	sillesta	how do i sign up for the mailing list?
22:39:30	gokr	I know quite a bit about mailman - we use it in the Smalltalk community a lot BUT... there is no free hosting of mailman that I know of.
22:39:39	gokr	So you end up needing to do all that work yourself.
22:39:52	gokr	sillesta: http://www.freelists.org/list/nim-dev
22:40:14	gokr	keyle: Which is why I felt freelists was a smooth choice. LuaJIT uses it, and many more I think.
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22:40:58	gokr	And you know - it does work with gmail - just not sure what the heck gmail does with your own post.
22:41:30	keyle	ok
22:42:01	gokr	I have been trying to google that part, just not sure exactly why gmail does this "optimization".
22:42:22	keyle	why isn't the threading presented properly? https://www.freelists.org/archive/luajit/12-2014
22:43:02	keyle	I think google groups does the same as what you're reporting with freelist
22:43:10	keyle	prevents doubleups in your mailbox
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22:43:45	gokr	Mmm. In my thunderbird that screwed up things - since my own post never landed in my Nim-dev folder - so viewing the thread, I couldn't see my own posts.
22:44:49	keyle	https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6588?hl=en ?
22:45:10	gokr	I know.
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22:50:05	gokr	keyle: Haiku uses freelists btw.
22:51:40	keyle	I am not doubting some key players use it
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22:52:20	keyle	but you mention that a forum only is hackish, I'd expect nim to host its own mailing list :)
22:52:39	gokr	If you can find (or spend the time setting up and maintaining) free mailman - then I am all ears.
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22:53:09	keyle	that's Araq and the dev team's call I think. See what the 1.0 announcement brings.
22:53:10	gokr	Well, "hackish" in a sense of perception.
22:53:35	gokr	Not hackish otherwise, its a fine piece of software.
22:53:55	keyle	yep
22:54:12	gokr	But AFAIK basically all programming languages I have seen has at least one - often 3-5 mailinglists.
22:54:40	keyle	thanks for setting that up though. I also prefer mailing lists over forums.
22:55:16	gokr	Now we just need to teach everyone to not top post and not use HTML :)
22:57:03	BlaXpirit	> 20th century
22:58:06	EXetoC	I'd rather use something that makes those non-issues then, but that's not going to happen
22:58:23	BlaXpirit	seriously, almost all of your points "for" mailinglists can be solved with RSS
22:58:46	BlaXpirit	and you say there is no real threading, well, that's a flaw of just *this* forum, like a ton of other things
22:59:04	EXetoC	right
22:59:23	EXetoC	most forums are crap though, but yeah
23:02:12	keyle	forums are antiquated anyway
23:02:26	BlaXpirit	antiquated forums are antiquated
23:02:28	keyle	if you want proper Q&A then stackexchange is the way to go
23:02:43	gokr	I have a hard time finding any other programming language that *doesn't* have an ml.
23:02:44	keyle	forum won't let you upvote the proper answer
23:02:52	EXetoC	that's much more limited in scope though
23:03:12	keyle	so the proper answer or the interesting one might be 3 pages down
23:03:15	EXetoC	antiquated forums are indeed antiquated :p
23:04:03	keyle	all the `how do I` questions become a mess in forums
23:04:26	BlaXpirit	so how does mailinglist change this?
23:04:35	keyle	mailing list are great for development teams to self organize
23:04:44	gokr	BlaXpirit: How many programming mailinglists have you used?
23:04:48	BlaXpirit	0
23:05:04	gokr	zero?
23:05:07	keyle	:)
23:05:45	keyle	calling mailing list 20th century and using IRC daily
23:05:49	keyle	...
23:06:16	gokr	BlaXpirit: I find it interesting then that you are so 100% sure they suck.
23:06:38	BlaXpirit	i don't remember saying they suck
23:06:39	gokr	While a whole bunch of us think otherwise. We who have actually been using several of them over many years.
23:06:43	BlaXpirit	although i can't be sure i didn't
23:06:58	gokr	BlaXpirit: Well, perhaps you haven't used that specific word - granted. :)
23:07:00	keyle	this is how the linux kernel works btw... http://lkml.org/
23:07:11	EXetoC	gmail top posts, at least by default. so annoying
23:07:51	BlaXpirit	well linux kernel does not have an official forum
23:08:04	keyle	because it'd be a mess
23:08:10	BlaXpirit	probably
23:08:14	BlaXpirit	and your point is?
23:08:24	EXetoC	if said forum was antiquated, yes
23:08:45	keyle	sharing my point, not making one to rub in anyone's face
23:09:06	BlaXpirit	it's quite an irrelevant point
23:09:22	BlaXpirit	linux is not afraid of community fragmentation, anyway
23:09:59	keyle	right then I have better things to do :)
23:10:48	BlaXpirit	if we have like 50 active members, separating them across 5 different ways to communicate may not be nice
23:11:01	BlaXpirit	and then you mention that a multimillion community uses a mailing list. k.
23:11:30	ldlework	I think we should ditch the forum
23:11:43	ldlework	and only use a mailinglist
23:11:51	ldlework	forum is a cost
23:11:52	BlaXpirit	better ditch the forum than have both
23:12:09	gokr	ldlework: Did you sign up? We are... 12 now I think.
23:12:42	ldlework	I'll do so when we decide that's what we're going to advertise
23:13:12	gokr	Araq calls it an experiment and then we will see how it goes.
23:13:18	BlaXpirit	i don't feel like having a ton of trash in my inbox
23:13:51	gokr	ldlework: So if noone uses it - I would suspect people here will take that as a sign it was a bad idea.
23:13:52	ldlework	BlaXpirit: so don't get the emails
23:13:55	ldlework	just go to the mailing list
23:14:11	flaviu	BlaXpirit: Set up your email client to put them in another directory.
23:14:14	BlaXpirit	and browse through the actually antiquated archive interface
23:14:25	ldlework	what ml software are we using?
23:14:32	gokr	I just signed up on freelists.org
23:14:46	gokr	But if you want to set up a mailman on a server somewhere - be my guest.
23:14:46	ldlework	I would have gone with google groups
23:14:49	EXetoC	BlaXpirit: there must be some good interfaces out there
23:14:53	ldlework	since people know how to use google groups
23:14:55	gokr	I have done my share of maintaining mailman.
23:14:57	EXetoC	the usual ones are indeed crap
23:15:20	flaviu	ldlework: Please no google groups.
23:15:22	gokr	ldlework: Google groups is also fine - I just felt freelists was a more... neutral choice.
23:15:30	BlaXpirit	when i find a google result of a mailing list archive, i'm actually quite sad
23:15:32	gokr	Since quite a lot of people don't like google.
23:15:43	ldlework	why?
23:15:43	BlaXpirit	finding anything there is a miracle
23:15:48	BlaXpirit	navigation is pain
23:15:52	ldlework	its used for major projects consisting of millions of users
23:16:02	ldlework	its on of the most popular mailing list solutions
23:16:04	EXetoC	the web interface blows
23:16:08	ldlework	'blows'
23:16:09	flaviu	Exactly.
23:16:10	ldlework	what doesn't it do?
23:16:26	flaviu	ldlework: Respond in less than a second after clicking.
23:16:29	gokr	ldlework: Personally I don't really care, as long as I can get it in my email client I am happy as a clam.
23:16:32	ldlework	it lists each message, collapses them, shows you which ones you haven't read
23:16:43	ldlework	flaviu: it works responsively me for any machine I've used it on
23:16:55	BlaXpirit	gokr, you probably can already do something to translate RSS to email
23:17:06	gokr	BlaXpirit: But I can't reply via RSS.
23:17:18	gokr	And I can't get threading and inlined replies either.
23:17:25	BlaXpirit	who cares. with one click you can open the reply box in browser
23:17:32	EXetoC	isnt it the one where expanding a message means clicking on a link and waiting for a new page to load?
23:17:34	gokr	Ehm, I care.
23:17:45	ldlework	EXetoC: google groups? no..?
23:17:58	ldlework	unless you mean thread
23:18:11	ldlework	and which web interface is better than googles? that's also as popular.
23:18:21	BlaXpirit	google groups has been the most bearable of the mailing list archives in my experience when i bumped into one through searching
23:18:21	flaviu	ldlework: Github!
23:18:47	ldlework	we shouldn't put "flaviu's computer runs it slow" over "this is what practically every major software project uses and is what the vast majority of internet denizens are used to"
23:18:48	BlaXpirit	oh yes, github is miraculous
23:18:57	BlaXpirit	but we can't create an issue for every small thing :(
23:19:40	EXetoC	ldlework: might have been something else. does google have some other interface too?
23:20:19	ldlework	EXetoC: other than the one that acts exactly like a forums where you can collapse the messages in a thread? dunno.
23:20:29	sillesta	would be nice if github had a small forum feature per project
23:20:37	sillesta	similar to issues
23:20:40	EXetoC	is there a threaded view?
23:20:54	ldlework	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/docker-user
23:21:00	ldlework	click a thread, get a thread
23:21:03	ldlework	not sure what's so bad about this
23:21:18	ldlework	it remembers what you've seen, you can star messages, and so on
23:21:35	EXetoC	ldlework: I recall having to click a link to expand long posts, but nevermind that
23:21:35	ldlework	instantly responsive for me
23:22:02	BlaXpirit	i actually can't find any "list of threads" of that mailinglist
23:22:14	ldlework	huh?
23:22:16	ldlework	scroll down?
23:22:39	BlaXpirit	nvm
23:22:41	ldlework	hehe
23:22:44	EXetoC	ldlework: threaded view as in tree view, but it's fine as it is
23:22:54	ldlework	ah
23:23:06	EXetoC	and of course we should encourage the use of SO too IMO
23:23:33	ldlework	I think quoting is the convention in google groups (and mailing lists in general)
23:24:35	BlaXpirit	no, that web interface is absolute garbage
23:24:45	BlaXpirit	(of freelists)
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23:25:15	gokr	EXetoC: SO?
23:25:38	BlaXpirit	1 message per page is just unacceptable
23:26:59	BlaXpirit	any advantage of any email client does not matter
23:27:03	EXetoC	one? huh
23:27:12	BlaXpirit	if people can't find the information they need without having everything in their inbox
23:27:35	ldlework	google groups it is.
23:27:41	BlaXpirit	you wish
23:27:45	EXetoC	no, not just one
23:27:46	BlaXpirit	gokr knows better
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23:27:54	EXetoC	unless there's only one message of course
23:28:00	gokr	BlaXpirit: Why do you say that?
23:28:02	EXetoC	gokr: StackOverflow
23:28:16	gokr	EXetoC: Ah.
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23:42:39	dom96	I think that having multiple ways to discuss Nim is a good thing. But we should make sure that when important things are discussed in a certain place that we should notify people who frequent other places about such discussions.
23:45:14	BlaXpirit	and i'm still of the thought that it's possible to have something that has all the advantages of IRC, forum, mailinglist
23:47:29	dom96	BlaXpirit: Good. Create it then.
23:47:32	dom96	Stop talking about it.
23:47:37	BlaXpirit	maybe i would
23:47:59	BlaXpirit	but i don't see such a thing written in nim
23:48:26	BlaXpirit	cuz if being written in nim wasn't a requirement for the forum, maybe more people would be satisfied with it
23:48:45	EXetoC	ldlework: gonna use OpenGL directly?
23:49:03	gokr	Personally I think the forum is quite neat - being a web forum.
23:50:25	BlaXpirit	google groups tries to erase the boundary between mailing list and forum
23:50:30	gokr	ldlework: I don't really care if we use google groups, our own mailman or freelists. Setting up and maintaining a mailman install is quite tedious though.
23:51:14	gokr	I have subscribed to a few google groups ... I think. Right now I am not subscribed, but I think it works quite fine.
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23:55:57	flaviu	dom96: I'd like to, but a lack of a proper templating library for nim really makes things difficult :)
23:56:27	dom96	BlaXpirit: If you spent as much time improving the forum as you do discussing issues here than everybody would be satisfied with the forum.
23:56:34	dom96	*then
23:56:40	flaviu	BlaXpirit: Oh, I see what the point of maxsplit is!
23:56:58	BlaXpirit	i'm not gonna improve a forum written in nim
23:57:14	dom96	Then why are you here?
23:57:36	BlaXpirit	hoping one day nim becomes useful for many things
23:58:39	*	sampwing quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)