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| 01:51:12 | FromDiscord | <mratsim> In reply to @_timurski "maybe one day ill": just use unicode, not too hard anymore with LLMs |
| 01:52:46 | FromDiscord | <mratsim> I used to do all of that stuff by hand: https://github.com/mratsim/constantine/blob/ea8c268603a5c5f5be479dda9ba27dcbdc51dade/constantine/commitments/eth_verkle_ipa.nim#L81 |
| 01:54:46 | FromDiscord | <mratsim> In reply to @emiliajssl "When will Nim migrate": if someone wants to own the docgen, they're very welcome I think |
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| 03:49:00 | FromDiscord | <incelsinister211> h |
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| 06:34:36 | FromDiscord | <_timurski> In reply to @mratsim "just use unicode, not": dawg that is not the same at ALL 😭 |
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| 06:35:14 | FromDiscord | <_timurski> it's too limited |
| 07:31:07 | FromDiscord | <kodiakweb> Compose key exists, and there's a third party windows port of the feature↵Doesn't support every symbol ootb but it's not too hard to map new ones, and mappings aren't too hard to find on gh either. You could also have an llm generate a mapping for whatever symbol sets you need and copy-paste it into your config. |
| 07:31:18 | FromDiscord | <kodiakweb> (edit) removed "third party" |
| 07:32:19 | FromDiscord | <kodiakweb> @_timurski |
| 07:46:52 | FromDiscord | <_timurski> it's just not the same |
| 07:47:28 | FromDiscord | <tangentsoft> In reply to @kodiakweb "Compose key exists, and": If Unicode sufficed, we wouldn’t need MathML (MathJax, ASCIIMath) and math journals would be in HTML, not LaTeX rendered to PDF. One example: where is the subscript B needed for the Boltzmann constant, foundational to physics? Don’t tell me about the HTML “sub” element or LaTeX approximations like `k_B`; the argument made was that Unicode suffices. Show me. |
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| 08:05:37 | delian66 | It has a 💩 character though... Someone advocated for it, and it was added. Apparently physicists do not care enough to do so. |
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| 08:07:16 | delian66 | or if they do, they may not have the numbers to push for their constants |
| 08:08:01 | delian66 | while people that want to write Klingon do |
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| 08:30:44 | FromDiscord | <mratsim> In reply to @_timurski "it's too limited": Oh for sure it is. But I find it somewhat more readable than latex formulas within a function doc comments where there is no renderer. |
| 08:46:48 | FromDiscord | <_timurski> In reply to @mratsim "Oh for sure it": typst is much more readable than latex, id recommend giving it a look |
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| 09:19:46 | FromDiscord | <mratsim> In reply to @_timurski "typst is much more": if you have a math heavy blog post written in typst I'm interested |
| 09:20:24 | FromDiscord | <_timurski> I have a bit of math and physics notes written up in typst |
| 09:20:35 | FromDiscord | <_timurski> I can send some snippets of that later |
| 09:20:54 | FromDiscord | <_timurski> it's like if you asked someone how they would write things intuitively, that's how typst is |
| 09:22:21 | FromDiscord | <_timurski> its also a programming language which allows you to generate things dynamically which I've used a lot when dealing with data |
| 09:29:39 | FromDiscord | <aintea> no way, I just learned that nimony is going to be libc-free |
| 09:30:03 | FromDiscord | <aintea> that's insane work, wish I was good enough to work on the compiler |
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| 12:29:48 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> In reply to @_timurski "typst is much more": I love Typst so much, I make a ton of my work documentation, hobby tabletop projects, and I even made my NimConf presentation with it. One of the foremost programs where I'm not sure why it needed to be written in Rust, and if they went with the data-oriented Nim style I talked about, they'd have a simpler program with faster feature iteration, plus all the safety and speed. |
| 12:30:54 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> Maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but they're essentially making a pipeline of language parser, document data structure, and PostScript serializer...Rust makes all of that far more fiddly than it needs to be. |
| 12:31:00 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> why does a project _need_ to be written in any language? it's likely the authors just liked rust and used it as that's what they're comfortable with... |
| 12:31:41 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> Syntax and semantics matter when you're trying to turn around and build new features, or add to an existing feature set. Especially building upon old code. |
| 12:31:58 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> I'll stand by that position, I don't believe the meme that languages don't matter. |
| 12:35:00 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> I think there are a lot of unconsidered organizational intangibles (that probably need to be studied) for how the manner in which data structures and computations are modeled tie into the organizational dynamics and how projects are metered out and managed. |
| 12:35:28 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> (edit) "for how" => "dealing with" |
| 12:35:40 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> (edit) "I think there are a lot of unconsidered organizational intangibles (that probably need to be studied) dealing with ... the" added "how" |
| 12:37:24 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> We already have the term "technical debt" when talking about how a project accrues so many shortcuts, shims, and grafts that it becomes unmanageable for new maintainers. |
| 12:46:57 | FromDiscord | <_timurski> sent a long message, see https://pasty.ee/vhOywdFJ |
| 12:59:25 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> sent a long message, see https://pasty.ee/zXZfFVJn |
| 13:35:35 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> i just don't understand the default logic of "typst works well in spite of being written in rust" instead of "typst works well (partly) due to being written in rust" |
| 13:35:50 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> the fact that the latter sounds silly should indicate how silly the former sounds as well |
| 13:40:06 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> In reply to @emiliajssl "I'll ask the authors": Eh I think we already know, it's got a massive community and a lot of momentum. |
| 13:41:18 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> In reply to @nnsee "i just don't understand": I didn't say it doesn't work well, I'm saying its pace of feature additions and technical debt accumulation aren't helped by the choice. |
| 13:42:00 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> In reply to @nervecenter "Syntax and semantics matter": it's surprising to hear you say this wrt to rust, because the general consensus seems to be that rust makes safe refactoring much easier than it otherwise would be |
| 13:43:29 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> Nim does that even better 🤷♂️ |
| 13:43:55 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> having used both languages extensively i'm not sure that's true, in my experience |
| 13:43:57 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> Rust can be great while not being the best for the purpose |
| 13:44:37 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> And just because refactoring in Rust is safe doesn't mean it's simple |
| 13:44:45 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> Refactoring in Nim is borderline sleepwalking work |
| 13:44:49 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> nim makes it really easy to use hacks to work around a problem, which (at least for me) is the main source of technical debt, while rust forces you to plan your application's behavior in advance and handling the issues as they come up, leading to less debt |
| 13:45:04 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> is my general experience anyways |
| 13:45:09 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Oh wait |
| 13:45:28 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Nim did kinda compile to C first? |
| 13:45:38 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Well transpile |
| 13:45:51 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> And then used LLVM? |
| 13:46:07 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Or is it direct |
| 13:46:13 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Or does Rust do the same |
| 13:46:38 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> In reply to @nnsee "nim makes it really": That's true enough, I just come from functional world so I avoid stuff like that habitually |
| 13:47:09 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> In reply to @emiliajssl "Nim did kinda compile": Nim compiles to C first then uses any C compile toolchain to make the binary. If you look in .nimcache you can see the compiled modules |
| 13:47:16 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> It's not intended to be human-readable C |
| 13:47:29 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Ahh |
| 13:47:36 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> That's something |
| 13:47:59 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> The authors are a bit biased (I think) towards C dependencies 😛 |
| 13:48:01 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> In reply to @emiliajssl "Well transpile": no, you had it right the first time :p |
| 13:48:08 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> compile, not transpile |
| 13:48:24 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> But |
| 13:48:27 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> sorry on Nix it's `.cache/nim` |
| 13:48:35 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> In reply to @nnsee "compile, not transpile": Isn't transpiles from Nim to C |
| 13:48:44 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Like language to language |
| 13:49:01 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Compile then from language to bits |
| 13:49:12 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> (edit) "transpiles" => "transpile" |
| 13:49:29 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Oh transcompiler |
| 13:49:31 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Bleh |
| 13:49:36 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> That word causes a lot of consternation |
| 13:49:59 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> The definition of transpiler is pretty fuzzy and overlaps with compiler significantly |
| 13:50:11 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Owah |
| 13:53:37 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> In reply to @emiliajssl "Isn't transpile from Nim": https://peterme.net/is-nim-a-transpiler.html |
| 13:53:47 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Oh |
| 13:53:48 | FromDiscord | <emiliajssl> Haha |
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