<<18-10-2018>>

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01:14:15FromGitter<zacharycarter> https://github.com/maiavictor/formality - Rust project specifically mentioning the EVM
01:14:28FromGitter<zacharycarter> isn't ethereum moving to eWASM or something?
01:14:49FromGitter<zacharycarter> the whole crypto space is a giant ball of confusion
01:17:03FromGitter<arnetheduck> ewasm is years away
01:21:16FromGitter<zacharycarter> ah
01:22:52FromGitter<zacharycarter> @arnetheduck - I'm leaving my current position soon, and taking a sabatical to do some further theoretical / DS and algo learning - I'm hoping to re-apply at status in the not-so distant future
01:23:36FromGitter<zacharycarter> but I also need to up my crypto knowledge, because I'm also very lacking in that area
01:24:34FromGitter<zacharycarter> in regards to both cryptography and ethereum
01:25:25FromGitter<zacharycarter> it's very cool to have a bridge to learn about all these concepts and topics via Nim
01:25:44FromGitter<zacharycarter> or a gateway - I guess is a better analogy
01:28:43FromGitter<rayman22201> @zacharycarter you should blog / stream your progress as you do this. It will give you some good "street cred" and it will benefit people wanting to learn Nim and people wanting to learn more about crypto.
01:28:48FromGitter<zacharycarter> I also want to write my own forth interpreter and write my own compiler, and then of course work on the next iteration of my hobby game engine
01:29:01FromGitter<zacharycarter> so who knows wtf I will end up actually working on / learning :P
01:29:31FromGitter<zacharycarter> @rayman22201 - that's a really good idea - I guess whatever I end up pursuing (I have a feeling it will be the game engine / graphics programming stuff) - I'll definitely try to find a way to incorporate that
01:29:43FromGitter<zacharycarter> I'm going to have a ton of free time to figure things like that out - which I'm very much excited about having
01:29:50FromGitter<rayman22201> :D awsome
01:30:27FromGitter<zacharycarter> It's funny - I shared an article in my work's slack channel earlier about algos / data structures
01:30:41FromGitter<zacharycarter> and a guy that recently joined was like - why the hell are you sharing this? doesn't everyone know this crap already?
01:31:05FromGitter<zacharycarter> and then I had to figure out a polite way to say no - especially the people I work with on a consistent basis
01:31:17FromGitter<rayman22201> Well, that's rude. Even though I know a lot of CS, I like to read articles and brush up my knowledge.
01:31:36FromGitter<zacharycarter> yeah - i have a feeling he's fresh out of a comp-sci or masters degree
01:31:43FromGitter<zacharycarter> and just kind of didn't think about what he was typing
01:32:10FromGitter<rayman22201> Your point about politeness is valid regardless.
01:32:31FromGitter<zacharycarter> but - he has a good point - like everyone SHOULD know this stuff if they want to work in software, and if they don't have that passion, then there needs to be some kind of distinction b/w those that do and those that don't
01:32:39FromGitter<zacharycarter> unfortunately, we don't have that / have never had that
01:33:12FromGitter<zacharycarter> so we talked 1 on 1 and kind of compared / contrasted our learning experiences - like he started with circuitry / breadboards / assembly language / C
01:33:23FromGitter<zacharycarter> and I started with HTML / JavaScript, then CSS then VB.NET then C# etc
01:33:32FromGitter<zacharycarter> so it was very cool / insightful to compare and contrats
01:33:44FromGitter<rayman22201> yeah. definitely.
01:34:08FromGitter<arnetheduck> the rigor in thinking will help you craft better code that needs less refactoring and behaves in a more predictable way.. that said, not all useful or great looking products have that - the road to great outcomes can take many turns.
01:34:32FromGitter<zacharycarter> yeah - I think simplicity and iteration are so important
01:34:42FromGitter<zacharycarter> don't seek out complexity and don't be afraid to fail fast
01:35:40FromGitter<zacharycarter> that's another frustration I have - like my job emphasizes pair programming, but I work with a dev that only cares about HTML / JS / CSS
01:35:43FromGitter<rayman22201> Also people take many paths to coding. I've seen amazing programmers come out of "code bootcamps" and shitty programmers with masters degrees.
01:35:59FromGitter<arnetheduck> there's also the domain to consider - sometimes it simply doesn't matter (ie a web ui or game) - but in the case of a project like nimbus, the difference between one and the other will be costly
01:36:45FromGitter<zacharycarter> it's so frustrating pairing with someone that doesn't have a drive or desire to learn, and just wants to write code
01:36:58FromGitter<zacharycarter> forced pair programming is the worst IMO
01:37:38FromGitter<rayman22201> Ironic that HN just had a thread on this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18245120
01:37:42FromGitter<zacharycarter> @rayman22201 - yeah - that's true as well, although I think it just really depends on how passionate the person is about programming
01:37:54FromGitter<zacharycarter> :P
01:38:19FromGitter<zacharycarter> @arnetheduck - well, it sucks that web dev and other dev gets relegated to that domain
01:38:29FromGitter<zacharycarter> I'd love to write performant web apps at work - but it's not possible
01:38:55FromGitter<zacharycarter> my company will spend 3+ months optimizing a JavaScript frotnend, and spend zero effort on backend optimziation
01:39:15FromGitter<zacharycarter> also - they pass JSON between backend services everywhere
01:39:20FromGitter<zacharycarter> rarely utilize caching
01:39:34FromGitter<zacharycarter> just, rookie level stuff - that even myself, not having a CS degree, can find major faults with
01:39:48FromGitter<zacharycarter> and when you point out these issues - but don't solve them yourself - you're a malcontent
01:40:45FromGitter<zacharycarter> and when you want to introduce a new idea or performant technology - you face a mountain of criticism / have to defend yourself to a soul-crushing degree
01:40:54FromGitter<zacharycarter> to the point that it's not worth it, and you either leave or adapt
01:41:24FromGitter<rayman22201> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
01:41:55FromGitter<zacharycarter> yup! and then they flatten the engineering org
01:42:05FromGitter<zacharycarter> and just randomly people will rise to positions of autonomy
01:42:08FromGitter<arnetheduck> no, it doesn't suck - it's a reasonable tradeoff. the user experience of a web site is more important than its performance - whether you use a linked list or an array really doesn't matter in that context as long as it's not blatantly and obviously bad - it is rare that you even need to know the difference in that context. also, if a single web page on the internet is poor, it's really not the end of the world. all
01:42:08FromGitter... the other web pages keep working.
01:42:09FromGitter<zacharycarter> with zero transparency
01:42:51FromGitter<zacharycarter> I'd argue that the modern web experience does holistically suck
01:43:23FromGitter<zacharycarter> and a lot of that is due to software bloat / not paying attention to efficient and performant coding practices
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01:43:54FromGitter<zacharycarter> and with the focus on SEO these days, at least in my experience with the company I work for - having a performant web stack is becoming increasingly important
01:44:10FromGitter<zacharycarter> which directly contradicts all the attention on aesthetics that the modern web dictates
01:44:30FromGitter<zacharycarter> a visit to a modern news website will take several megs of bandwidth for 250k of text
01:44:39FromGitter<zacharycarter> if you ask me - it's because it's not a reasonable tradeoff
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01:47:13FromGitter<rayman22201> It's economics. I did webdev for a long time. I got sick of it. The economics just dictate that it's not worth companies putting money into hiring better people. At the end of the day, google is still showing the links in their results, and showing their ads, and "joe schmoe" is still using the website, and paying them money. Consumers don't know any better, and don't really care. You have to remember that you
01:47:13FromGitter... aren't the target market. Your parents and less-computer literate peers are.
01:47:15FromGitter<arnetheduck> beyond "good enough performance", in the majority of applications you're just wasting time. it's a bit like optimizing a parser for command line arguments - sure, it's a fun intellectual exercise, but for all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter the least.
01:47:50FromGitter<zacharycarter> well - please explain that to my org, because they're wasting millions of dollars in that case
01:47:56FromGitter<zacharycarter> trying to outrank cargurus in SEO
01:48:22FromGitter<arnetheduck> seo matters in that case - not compsci 101
01:48:33FromGitter<zacharycarter> well if you have people writing bad javascript
01:48:35FromGitter<rayman22201> There are industries where this is different. Banking, crypto, those have higher standards because they loose a lot of money if they don't. Thus they put out money to hire the kind of people that excel in those area.
01:48:36FromGitter<zacharycarter> I mean
01:48:38FromGitter<zacharycarter> ...
01:49:16FromGitter<rayman22201> Gaming is interesting, because they care about performance, but not necessarily reliability. So different kinds of patterns appear there.
01:49:25FromGitter<zacharycarter> I'm not implying the web stack is as critical as what you work on
01:50:01FromGitter<rayman22201> I'm not saying one is better / more critical than the other. Just that the people with the money have different ideas about what is "good"
01:50:03FromGitter<zacharycarter> I'm saying if someone is allocating inside of a loop or writing terrible nested conditional logic because they dont' know any better
01:50:03FromGitter<rayman22201> or good enough
01:50:32FromGitter<zacharycarter> it's not helping in any scenario - and the more folks understand about programming / computer science in general and how to measure the performance of the code they're authoring, the better off they will be
01:51:07FromGitter<zacharycarter> I know that I've operated for over a decade at a high level of understanding - and I've regretted my lack of low level knowledge
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01:51:32FromGitter<rayman22201> Unless, they don't care, b/c they are just looking for a paycheck.... which is sadly a lot of people
01:51:35FromGitter<zacharycarter> I'm sure it's not essential to things - but I also know that software is very bloated these days and slow and it's layered and I think that's a result of programmers getting lazy and not caring
01:51:44FromGitter<zacharycarter> > Unless, they don't care, b/c they are just looking for a paycheck.... which is sadly a lot of people
01:52:25FromGitter<rayman22201> and it seem like a lot of those people end up in webdev... because that industry can tolerate that kind of crap. again, unfortunately.
01:52:38FromGitter<zacharycarter> yeah - that's why I'm out
01:52:46FromGitter<zacharycarter> it's really enterprise dev
01:52:51FromGitter<zacharycarter> just don't get into that scene IMO
01:53:10FromGitter<zacharycarter> as soon as you start hearing those buzz words
01:53:13FromGitter<rayman22201> lol... true... the amount of bad enterprise Java I've seen would give you nightmares
01:54:47FromGitter<rayman22201> anyway. Despite the personal / philosophical stuff, I hope you get to play with Nim more. I wish I could. viva la Nim :-)
01:56:37FromGitter<yyyc514> is having a method/proc named the same as my module not possible?
01:56:46FromGitter<yyyc514> "Error: expression 'runtime' has no type (or is ambiguous)"
01:56:50FromGitter<yyyc514> even if i try runtime.runtime
01:56:54FromGitter<yyyc514> renaming it it works fine though
01:57:10FromGitter<zacharycarter> @rayman22201 thank you! me too!
01:57:49FromGitter<zacharycarter> and I hope you get to as well!
01:59:21FromGitter<zacharycarter> @yyyc514 - I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe I can help provide some insight
01:59:35FromGitter<zacharycarter> https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#modules-scope-rules & https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/4971
02:00:08FromGitter<zacharycarter> going to sign off for the night - have a good one all
02:00:17FromGitter<yyyc514> iā€™d think this might fall under qualification
02:00:47FromGitter<yyyc514> thanks
02:01:29FromGitter<zacharycarter> šŸ‘
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