| 00:37:19 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> In reply to @optional_superboss "I'm trying. It's brilliant.": why terrifying?? |
| 00:38:12 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> I can't understand why zig selected manual memory management rather then RAII |
| 00:38:19 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> (edit) "then" => "than" |
| 00:39:30 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> but zigcc is very interesting, and charming point of zig ecosystem |
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| 00:40:30 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> but it's obvious that if nim and zig do not develop system that can't be taken by other language(especially Rust), rust will take all market shares |
| 00:41:25 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> and this shows nim's way |
| 00:41:42 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> not pure nim, the only nim |
| 00:42:19 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> I don't think anyone cares that much about language market share |
| 00:42:26 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> We're just going to use what we want to use |
| 00:42:28 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> nono that's important |
| 00:42:35 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> ecosystem should grow |
| 00:43:07 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> The Rust ecosystem is big, but still doesn't have a good GUI library |
| 00:43:23 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> um.. |
| 00:43:42 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> how about freya |
| 00:43:50 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> not pure rust(use skia) but quite good |
| 00:45:11 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> and there's tauri(also not pure rust) but rising alternative for electron |
| 00:47:21 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> if ecosystem and community don't grow, then, next-generation compiler devs are not flow in to↵and you know you can't develop with single comiler↵there's many library needs |
| 00:47:26 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> (edit) "needs" => "need" |
| 00:50:01 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> sent a long message, see https://discordapp.com/channels/371759389889003530/371759389889003532/1569514410555211817 |
| 00:50:29 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> being multi-domain compiler framework |
| 00:52:41 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> Nim also cares about memory safety, though |
| 00:52:51 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> And high performance |
| 00:52:59 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> I'm not sure what you are arguing about |
| 00:54:26 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> Have you identified some key weakness where a library or feature you would want to use is missing? |
| 00:56:19 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> sent a long message, see https://discordapp.com/channels/371759389889003530/371759389889003532/1569516007926669356 |
| 00:56:32 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> and there's no simd abstraction |
| 00:56:38 | FromDiscord | <zkopt_> and there's no GPGPU abstraction too |
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| 09:36:41 | FromDiscord | <TӨMΛ ☠> sent a code paste, see https://discordapp.com/channels/371759389889003530/371759389889003532/1569646958161821767 |
| 09:39:25 | FromDiscord | <TӨMΛ ☠> I have some primitive rewrite for the code, but I wonder if there's something idiomatic that could work with less code: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1569647650306002955/image.png?ex=6af437ca&is=6af2e64a&hm=500867f95cd8b470b6ca08a31b79c06a4bb9f87e7bc6d7dbbd78ce95de21abd5& |
| 09:42:00 | FromDiscord | <TӨMΛ ☠> Hm, the new rewrite doesn't seem to work either however |
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| 10:28:22 | FromDiscord | <just_a_random_idiot> sent a long message, see https://discordapp.com/channels/371759389889003530/371759389889003532/1569659973196316725 |
| 10:30:38 | FromDiscord | <just_a_random_idiot> In reply to @zkopt_ "I'm library developer so": SIMD for normal languages usually suck, as you can't really debug them well unless you look at IR or assembly. It's usually best to just use ISPC or similar, as dedicated (e)DSLs have much more mature optimizers than generalistic languages ↵↵Maybe Nimony might add something with LLVM IR, but I guess we'll see |
| 10:31:21 | FromDiscord | <just_a_random_idiot> (edit) "languages" => "languages. Plus, ISPC lets you know about gathers and scatters, among other things" |
| 10:35:49 | FromDiscord | <just_a_random_idiot> I think the main thing Nim needs is a more hermetic build system rather than the global-ish one it has now, as the current build system just makes complex builds a chore to replicate across machines |
| 10:44:19 | FromDiscord | <just_a_random_idiot> Zig works because it genuinely has one of the best build systems out of all the languages out there. Hell, people use it to compile C and C++ code all the time |
| 10:44:44 | FromDiscord | <just_a_random_idiot> Nimble is meh compared to it |
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| 13:39:54 | FromDiscord | <optional_superboss> In reply to @zkopt_ "why terrifying??": I'm coming from F# where even if you took a lot of drugs and followed the worst advice on the internet, the language forces you to make basically good code. With Nim I feel like I can run immediately but I haev this sense that in 1 or 2 months I'll feel like i f'd up big time somewhere |
| 13:39:58 | FromDiscord | <optional_superboss> probably skill issue |
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| 15:21:34 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> In reply to @optional_superboss "I'm coming from F#": Don't use `ptr` or `ref` and I can tell you the default semantics will guide you solid code with minimal debt. It'll be very comfortable if you come from F# land. Very expression-oriented and functional in most scenarios. |
| 15:21:54 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> (edit) "In reply to @optional_superboss "I'm coming from F#": Don't use `ptr` or `ref` and I can tell you the default semantics will guide you ... solid" added "towards" |
| 16:01:30 | Amun-Ra | nor addr |
| 16:41:40 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> quick question for y'all |
| 16:41:51 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> is it still not possible to `{.align(n).}` an entire type |
| 16:41:58 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> and does anyone know if it'll be possible in nim 3 |
| 16:42:06 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> extremely annoying that it still isn't possible afaict |
| 16:43:10 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> In reply to @nervecenter "Don't use `ptr` or": why not `ref`? ARC/ORC is awesome |
| 16:52:25 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> In reply to @just_a_random_idiot "I think the main": oh god please yes lol |
| 16:52:34 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> `nimble install`↵↵ok, but where??? |
| 16:53:04 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> I don't dislike the idea of there being a global install location but the lack of an easy way to do project-wise stuff a-la `uv` in python is extremely annoying |
| 17:22:24 | FromDiscord | <nervecenter> In reply to @nocturn9x "why not `ref`? ARC/ORC": Yes, but they're tools, not candy. If you don't use them, you get automatic single-ownership on everything by default, without lifting a finger. What other language can say that? Only a couple have tried and they're so new they're in diapers: That questionable Goose project, and another I forgot. |
| 17:24:10 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> well fair enough |
| 17:24:22 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> but rust can say the same thing and that doesn't restrict you to not using references |
| 17:24:29 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> and it won't require copies, just moves |
| 17:24:45 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> now of course then you're burdened by the borrow checker which is a whole other business, but still |
| 17:25:06 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> I'm guessing nim can probably optimize some copies to moves too |
| 17:25:26 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> but you'd also never have to use `var T` either |
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| 20:04:06 | FromDiscord | <optional_superboss> In reply to @nervecenter "Don't use `ptr` or": The recent case syntax sugar made me very happy indeed |
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| 20:35:13 | FromDiscord | <rakgew> I assume that is what atlas would be used for?↵(@nocturn9x) |
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| 20:39:42 | FromDiscord | <nocturn9x> what's atlas? new package manager? |
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| 21:19:58 | FromDiscord | <Abdulrahman> In reply to @muddmaker "And high performance": Most of the times rust is faster |
| 21:20:35 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> According to what, microbenchmarks? |
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| 21:21:28 | FromDiscord | <Abdulrahman> In reply to @nervecenter "Don't use `ptr` or": Are refs that ineffecient? |
| 21:22:01 | FromDiscord | <Abdulrahman> In reply to @muddmaker "According to what, microbenchmarks?": Yeah |
| 21:22:11 | FromDiscord | <Abdulrahman> Not that accurate |
| 21:22:42 | FromDiscord | <Abdulrahman> But i see rust surpassing nim in those more than the reverse |
| 21:23:24 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> Also in the original context, I was just saying that Nim cared about being performant, not that Nim would consistently beat Rust in performance when put under microbenchmarks |
| 21:23:48 | FromDiscord | <Abdulrahman> Yeah |
| 21:23:53 | FromDiscord | <Abdulrahman> True |
| 21:24:23 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> I don't really care about microbenchmarks, either. You are usually just making the same syscall against the kernel either way, so as long as there isn't some extra allocations slipping through you should be fine |
| 21:24:48 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> The gap between Nim and Rust will be small compared to a lot of languages people use |
| 21:25:12 | FromDiscord | <Abdulrahman> All roads lead to rome, if you write performant code in both the binaries should be close enough. |
| 21:26:34 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> I think it will be interesting to microbenchmark Nimony when it ships. What I've seen so far has been promising |
| 21:26:55 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> Nimony's async should also be better than Rust's based off theory |
| 21:31:18 | FromDiscord | <dykatz> It also isn't totally fair because Rust can theoretically swap out async runtimes, so there can be the one everyone uses (tokio) and the one that cheeses benchmarks. Really, there should be benchmarking between Axum and whatever web framework Nimony ends up with (for the example of web frameworks) |
