| 00:00:06 | zacharycarter | fails with invalid indentation |
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| 00:00:53 | zacharycarter | Alright - need some help with some type design |
| 00:01:07 | * | zacharycarter sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/rqyOGjTBakxxlRhERpIoBlpG > |
| 00:01:11 | zacharycarter | I want to do something like this - |
| 00:01:28 | * | zacharycarter sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/PUfawjbnDSwVxwIoLqZhVuQY > |
| 00:01:41 | * | zacharycarter sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/txARTXJDzQJBiMddYqNJILyr > |
| 00:02:00 | zacharycarter | but I don't know how to mix types for the value / 2nd generic param |
| 00:03:33 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @zacharycarter this does not compile though: ⏎ ⏎ ``` code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b4e83c4ecc1f82e2fc08f01] |
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| 00:04:39 | * | zacharycarter sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/yYHBehKGwteftBJpSDRSvsYb > |
| 00:04:41 | zacharycarter | will though |
| 00:05:55 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> interesting. You are correct |
| 00:06:28 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> That fixed that issue. Thanks! The compiler could probably use a better error message there. |
| 00:06:59 | zacharycarter | yeah - may want to file an issue |
| 00:07:09 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> I now get the error: ```lib/pure/pegs.nim(91, 11) Error: attempt to redefine: 'sons'``` |
| 00:07:12 | zacharycarter | I don't think Nim supports declarations like that |
| 00:07:41 | zacharycarter | ah yeah you can't redefinine a type attribute with the same name in multiple case clauses in the same varidic type |
| 00:07:42 | zacharycarter | so |
| 00:08:16 | * | zacharycarter sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/iASgCuNRXcPSrFrYYeAesObG > |
| 00:08:18 | zacharycarter | sorry |
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| 00:09:05 | zacharycarter | basically if you have the type attribute bar defined under 0 |
| 00:09:08 | zacharycarter | you can't re-define it again under `1 |
| 00:09:21 | zacharycarter | it has to have a different identifier |
| 00:10:54 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> is that behavior considered a bug / open issue, or is it just an accepted design limitation? |
| 00:11:24 | * | zacharycarter sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/NOrKcHudcjbwyGRNcufMzpJg > |
| 00:11:44 | * | zacharycarter sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/MDBHuOvGxMwhkGNTLEvVBdUg > |
| 00:12:02 | zacharycarter | this is as designed - it'd be very difficult to overcome this limitation |
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| 00:12:33 | zacharycarter | the compiler would have to get very smart |
| 00:12:48 | zacharycarter | and it's already very smart |
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| 00:14:20 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> lol. ok? and? |
| 00:17:10 | zacharycarter | that's the answer |
| 00:17:35 | zacharycarter | it's not going to be doable - not in the forseeable future of the language |
| 00:17:45 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> My question is why? |
| 00:17:52 | zacharycarter | I explained why |
| 00:18:20 | zacharycarter | it's extremely difficult to do in the compiler |
| 00:18:31 | zacharycarter | I didn't write the compiler |
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| 00:18:41 | zacharycarter | bug Andreas if you want a real answer |
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| 00:37:23 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Nothing? Is there documentation on this limitation anywhere? Github wiki, Github issue, the forum? I'm not trying to be an ass, I just want to understand this limitation better. |
| 00:38:20 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> It seems like the kind of thing that should be in the docs at least. |
| 00:40:10 | zacharycarter | I'm pretty sure it is |
| 00:40:24 | zacharycarter | https://nim-lang.org/docs/tut2.html#object-oriented-programming-object-variants |
| 00:40:38 | zacharycarter | you can always dig into the compiler to understand why it'd be difficult |
| 00:41:30 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> where does that document describe that limitation? |
| 00:43:05 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> neither is it described here: https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#types-object-variants |
| 00:43:11 | zacharycarter | I'm not sure that it does - I was just linking to where I knew the doc was |
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| 00:43:34 | zacharycarter | well - I guess the argument from the language creator would probably be that it doesn't assert that it allows for that either |
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| 00:44:05 | zacharycarter | and since Nim is built on top of C, it's on the user when they assert that the language does exhibit such a feature |
| 00:44:16 | zacharycarter | but I don't disagree that a PR couldn't hurt |
| 00:45:03 | zacharycarter | but I A) Don't know where the best place to put the comment would be or B) how it would be best phrased |
| 00:45:27 | zacharycarter | maybe an issue would be the best place to start - not sure if there is one already existing or not |
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| 00:46:23 | zacharycarter | going to skate to the convenience store real quick, be back in a few |
| 00:46:37 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> 👍 |
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| 00:50:29 | CodeVance | rayman there's the docs for the compiler internal |
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| 00:51:21 | CodeVance | https://nim-lang.org/docs/intern.html#the-compiler-s-architecture-short-description-of-nim-s-modules |
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| 01:52:05 | skrylar | i bring more presents https://github.com/skrylar/raylib-nim |
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| 02:16:19 | CodeVance | thanks XD |
| 02:17:23 | zacharycarter | skrylar: zengine is basically a giant port of raylib 😅 |
| 02:17:31 | zacharycarter | with some added stuff |
| 02:17:35 | zacharycarter | and some missing stuff |
| 02:17:59 | zacharycarter | but anyhow - I'm going to work on a new engine soon |
| 02:18:06 | zacharycarter | and skeasing will be in it for sure! |
| 02:18:35 | zacharycarter | although I really think you should name the library skeasy |
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| 02:41:20 | skrylar | zacharycarter, i did a big bugfix to skeasing the other day. and added physics springs |
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| 03:24:33 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> Is there any SOAP nimble packeage? |
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| 03:47:01 | skrylar | i don't see one |
| 03:49:03 | skrylar | zacharycarter, have you dealt with lattice deformations? having a trouble wrapping my head around them, although current best guess is to subdivide NxN lattices in to smaller 2x2's |
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| 03:50:26 | skrylar | will probably have to shelve the question until i have a tesselator and preview rig though :\ |
| 04:10:07 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> then how to translate a SOAP python serializer to nim? |
| 04:23:45 | skrylar | use custom pragmas for annotations, have a macro scrape those annotations and generate code using the xml module to produce xml output? |
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| 04:42:38 | skrylar | heh reading the 2017 survey; people wanted tk? |
| 04:42:50 | skrylar | I mean, i guess. Tk is a decently simple GUI, not a lot to it tho |
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| 06:26:12 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> Is tk popular ? never heard of. |
| 06:29:48 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> tried http://rosettacode.org/wiki/100_doors#Tcl |
| 06:33:20 | CodeVance | python |
| 06:33:28 | Araq | tk itself is undead |
| 06:33:44 | Araq | but it's the standard UI lib for Python and maybe for Ruby too |
| 06:34:36 | CodeVance | tk would actually benifit from nim's macros |
| 06:34:54 | Araq | most UIs would, see Karax. |
| 06:34:56 | CodeVance | since theres so much boilerplate |
| 06:35:15 | CodeVance | What I don't like about tk is the interface with its internals |
| 06:35:30 | CodeVance | I know but tk especially. |
| 06:39:59 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Good morning @Araq! Can you explain to me the situation with Variant types not being able to redefine type fields with the same name? |
| 06:40:15 | Araq | there is a long issue about it |
| 06:40:45 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Is there a github link I can read? |
| 06:46:37 | Araq | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/3629 |
| 06:47:05 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Thank you! 😄 my search skills suck today |
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| 07:42:43 | PMunch | Hmm, we should promote this pattern in the internal options menu: https://github.com/superfunc/maybe |
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| 07:43:24 | PMunch | s/menu/module |
| 07:47:54 | FromGitter | <mratsim> sounds good. |
| 07:48:00 | Araq | which pattern? |
| 07:56:42 | PMunch | Instead of doing a check if an option is valid, then try to access it's variable, have a block that exposes the value to you if it's there, and one where it's not there. |
| 07:57:29 | PMunch | Right now it would be entirely possible to do "if not x.isSome: echo x.get" |
| 07:57:36 | PMunch | Which obviously won't work |
| 07:57:55 | PMunch | https://shreevatsa.wordpress.com/2015/01/31/boolean-blindness/ |
| 07:58:43 | PMunch | Came across this when looking at Toccata: http://www.toccata.io/2017/10/No-Booleans.html |
| 07:58:55 | PMunch | It's a functional language that compiles to C, and it doesn't have booleans |
| 07:59:04 | PMunch | No if clauses |
| 08:00:13 | Araq | I've seen that, yes. |
| 08:00:23 | Araq | And don't understand it. |
| 08:01:01 | PMunch | What do you mean you don't understand it? |
| 08:01:16 | Araq | "bool" is not a result from "goto" statements, it's stupid |
| 08:01:53 | Araq | boolean logic predates imperative asm programming by hundreds of years |
| 08:02:36 | Araq | nor is the compression of information "bad". |
| 08:02:47 | Araq | every "sum" and "avg" operation does that too. |
| 08:03:11 | PMunch | Yeah he's not saying that booleans comes from gotos |
| 08:03:37 | PMunch | He was just using gotos as an example of things most modern languages have removed, or at least shuns. |
| 08:04:30 | PMunch | And compression of information, while not inherently bad, can be scary |
| 08:05:01 | Araq | compression is the essence of perception. |
| 08:06:41 | PMunch | Look at the maybe/options use-case. By creating two scopes, one with the value present, and one without it, we don't lose any information about our maybe. This means that we can't mess up something which is obviously illegal. |
| 08:09:02 | PMunch | Or consider NULL pointers, not a huge problem in Nim, but it happens from time to time. By compressing the check myPointer == nil into a boolean you've essentially lost information about what that boolean means. Booleans as a type is yes true or false, without retaining any information about what they actually checked. By scoping this in a similar way to the options we ensure that we can't create null pointer dereferences as the null pointer isn't visible in |
| 08:09:02 | PMunch | our scope. |
| 08:09:08 | FromGitter | <mratsim> > As Conor McBride puts it, to make use of a Boolean you have to know its provenance so that you can know what it means. ⏎ […] ⏎ > Keeping track of this information (or attempting to recover it using any number of program analysis techniques) is notoriously difficult. ⏎ ⏎ Checking where a boolean comes from is difficult? [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b4ef5a44b583a74a7250e46] |
| 08:10:20 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I’m fine with superfund/maybe pattern, currently reading the boolean blindness article but I think the hypothesis it’s starting with is flawed. |
| 08:10:27 | PMunch | @mratsim, if you only have a boolean it's impossible to know where it comes from |
| 08:10:56 | FromGitter | <mratsim> if you only have an int it’s impossible to know where it comes from, should we remove int? |
| 08:11:51 | FromGitter | <mratsim> i.e. use enums and a proper type system. |
| 08:11:51 | PMunch | No, the idea is that while 5 is just a number, true carries some implicit meaning of what is true |
| 08:12:27 | PMunch | Yeah, that is one way to solve a lot of the things they point out |
| 08:13:00 | FromGitter | <mratsim> 5 is not just a number, it can be kilometrs, miles, integer_overflow_error, launch the missile, health remaining, Passport ID |
| 08:13:00 | PMunch | I'm not saying we should go crazy and delete booleans from Nim by the way :P I just wanted to see it in the options module :P |
| 08:13:26 | PMunch | Yes of course |
| 08:14:01 | PMunch | Which is where distinct types comes in |
| 08:16:49 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I much prefer this essay by the same author: btw, it’s quite funny: https://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html |
| 08:18:25 | PMunch | I haven't actually read it yet, but I've seen it referenced. I think I'll read it right away :) |
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| 08:30:49 | Araq | "I’m fine with superfund/maybe pattern, currently reading the boolean blindness article but I think the hypothesis it’s starting with is flawed" exactly my position too. |
| 08:37:22 | PMunch | http://www.hxa.name/notes/note-hxa7241-20131124T0927Z.html <- This talks about the issue you raised mratsim of "5 is not just a number" |
| 08:38:13 | PMunch | And I agree with you, the same way a bool only carries its value, so does an integer |
| 08:40:12 | PMunch | Imagine the case where we have many procedures which passes pointers around, each should check if it's null, even if that check was just done in the previous procedure. |
| 08:41:02 | PMunch | If we had created a distinct type NonNullablePtr and required that for all our procedures along with creating some way to check and convert a pointer to a NonNullablePtr this check could be done once. |