<< 01-08-2013 >>

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10:10:49	BitPuffin	Man the AUR package for nimrod-git really should use the --depth option.. Such a huge download
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10:30:24	dom96	BitPuffin: Would you be able to sacrifice a whole weekend for it?
10:30:36	dom96	because it's really a 48 hour competition.
10:30:50	BitPuffin	dom96: I know what ludum dare is :)
10:30:52	dom96	You have to get the game done in 48 hours.
10:30:56	BitPuffin	I've been in their irc for like two years
10:31:06	dom96	ahh col
10:31:08	dom96	*cool
10:31:10	BitPuffin	which weekend is it?
10:31:44	dom96	23rd-26th
10:32:04	BitPuffin	Hmm
10:32:07	BitPuffin	I don't know really
10:32:14	BitPuffin	Not sure if I have the time
10:32:30	dom96	awww
10:32:34	BitPuffin	I'll probably do one eventually
10:32:46	dom96	I will probably only have time for this one.
10:32:49	BitPuffin	and I'll advertise that the games I'm currently writing are written in nimrod so
10:32:55	BitPuffin	it will probably generate more buzz :)
10:33:04	dom96	hehe, cool.
10:33:24	dom96	I wonder where fowl is, maybe he'd do it.
10:34:45	BitPuffin	Hmm maybe
10:34:49	BitPuffin	I'll still think about it though
10:35:02	BitPuffin	too bad there's no allegro 5 binding yet
10:35:06	dom96	alright
10:35:07	BitPuffin	and I don't have time to make one :)
10:35:15	dom96	The last time I did I used sfml.
10:35:22	dom96	*I did it
10:36:11	dom96	my art really sucked :P
10:36:43	BitPuffin	yeah I saw that you participated :P
10:38:58	BitPuffin	didn't check the art though or what it was!
10:38:59	BitPuffin	gotta go!
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10:40:56	dom96	see ya
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11:02:31	dom96	hey Araq_
11:02:43	Araq_	hi dom96
11:12:33	dom96	My async stuff is now fully automatic, it can connect to itself! :p
11:13:00	dom96	I'm excited about getting epoll to work :D
11:13:50	Araq_	yay
11:13:57	Araq_	yeah getting rid of select is overdue
11:14:08	Araq_	even though we beat ROR even with select iirc
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12:08:55	Trixar_za	Ruby on rails gives me nightmares
12:42:31	dom96	ugh, this is crap.
12:42:38	dom96	I can't use Nimrod for Pandacodium.
12:42:57	Araq_	dom96: why not=
12:42:59	Araq_	?
12:43:06	dom96	"2. The team's project must be written in one (or more) of the following languages: Javascript, Python, Ruby or PHP."
12:43:21	dom96	Is that rule stupid or what?
12:43:32	Araq_	translate to JS then
12:43:41	dom96	meh
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14:06:58	EXetoC	hola amigos
14:21:47	dom96	bonjour monsieur
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15:08:34	Mat2	hi
15:08:53	dom96	hello
15:09:01	Mat2	hi dom96
15:09:04	dom96	What do you guys think of this? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/noflo/noflo-development-environment
15:12:22	Mat2	fine, I have seen similar software before - as I know quite common for game generators in the 80'es
15:12:38	Mat2	^80's
15:12:44	dom96	I like the look of their IDE. But I guess it's not ready for the public yet. All I see in the docs is instructions on how to write these graphs using some text language, which totally defeats the purpose.
15:14:42	Mat2	hmm, makes no sense
15:17:07	Mat2	so I agree
15:17:13	dom96	if they reach their goal I will cry
15:21:13	dom96	btw for anyone that doesn't look at the forum much: http://forum.nimrod-code.org/t/191
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15:26:50	Mat2	enforcing style is a good thing in my opinion
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15:35:06	Sergio965	Nimrod looks like an underscored variable language.
15:37:03	EXetoC	what?
15:37:24	Sergio965	I don't think enforcing a style is a good idea.
15:37:47	dom96	why?
15:37:48	Sergio965	But I think case sensitivity is needed.
15:37:56	Sergio965	Because different people write code in different styles.
15:38:15	Associat0r	underscore is bad
15:38:22	Sergio965	Why should the language decide if I can do "var i_like_bread" or "var iLikeBread"?
15:38:24	Sergio965	Associat0r: ?
15:38:25	dom96	yeah, I feared that would be some people's reaction :\
15:38:57	Sergio965	I don't like that Nimrod conflates all casing patterns, though.
15:39:12	Sergio965	iLikeBread != i_like_bread != iLIKEBREAD.
15:39:13	dom96	so you don't like style insensitivity either?
15:39:25	Sergio965	Nope.
15:39:29	apotheon	I'm with gradha on that.
15:39:29	Sergio965	It makes no sense.
15:39:55	dom96	Sergio965: Would you prefer enforced style of style insensitivity?
15:40:04	Sergio965	I would prefer neither.
15:40:18	Sergio965	Why either?
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15:40:28	Sergio965	I can't think of one successful language that enforces either.
15:40:32	Sergio965	Or, rather, uses either.
15:40:49	Sergio965	(Besides things like Capitals for classes in Java, but I'm okay with enforcing capitals for types)
15:41:16	Sergio965	Just not for variables.
15:41:19	apotheon	This whole "everything must be a particular way" focus strikes me as a weird sort of fetishistic pursuit of orthodoxy rather than focus on developing a great implementation of a good language and letting the growing community sort it out.
15:41:43	Sergio965	"fetishistic pursuit of orthodoxy" is rather extravagant. This is not heresy.
15:41:43	apotheon	. . . and it reminds me of Go and Python.
15:41:58	apotheon	Sergio965: I'm kinda agreeing with you, so I'm not sure why you said that.
15:42:05	Associat0r	that's the point of a language to enforce certain things
15:42:22	apotheon	Associat0r: The point of a programming language (at least when I'm picking one to use) is what it enables.
15:42:24	Sergio965	apotheon: We can agree on an end-goal and yet reach it in many different ways.
15:42:29	apotheon	. . . not whose orthodoxy it tries to enforce.
15:42:44	Sergio965	Anyways, I need to grab lunch. This is an interesting discussion though.
15:42:54	apotheon	Sergio965: I have no idea what you're trying to argue against when you disagree with me while I'm basically agreeing with you.
15:43:11	Associat0r	it enables readibility and order in this case
15:43:19	Associat0r	consistency
15:43:21	apotheon	. . .
15:43:30	apotheon	the One True Readability
15:43:33	apotheon	Okay.
15:43:38	Mat2	as I learned here yesterday, humans need order
15:43:38	dom96	Araq's plan to enforce style is on the other side of the extreme. What we have now gives the programmer ultimate control, but people don't like that... if we go to the other side then we are essentially scaring away programmers anyway just as we are right now...
15:44:18	apotheon	It makes a certain amount of sense to me to . . .
15:44:26	apotheon	1. reserve first-letter capitals for specific purposes
15:44:40	apotheon	2. require first-letter lower-case for everything else
15:45:01	apotheon	3. ridicule people who use all-caps outside of contexts where compatibility with other languages demands it
15:45:14	apotheon	Apart from that, this whole effort seems pointless and contentious.
15:46:31	Associat0r	OCaml and F# enforce that Data constructors start with UpperCase for example
15:46:43	dom96	As does Haskell.
15:47:10	Associat0r	Lisp's use dashes between words
15:47:19	Mat2	It is totally irrelevant what style is prescribed as long as one is prescribed
15:47:46	dom96	I think it would be interesting to start a poll on HN. I am guessing everyone would vote for "case sensitive with no enforced style" though.
15:47:46	Associat0r	it is very relevant what style is prescribed
15:48:06	apotheon	Communities develop standards. People who violate them just for personal taste get their code shunned. I don't see a need to define a community by enforcing standards before people using it in general get a chance to define those standards based on community composition.
15:48:42	apotheon	It seems, as I said, like a fetishistic focus on orthodoxy, and shifts attention from the important stuff at this early stage to bikeshedding. Like I said, I'm with gradha.
15:48:51	Associat0r	sometimes you need a dictator
15:49:02	Associat0r	many times infact wrt language design
15:49:24	Mat2	I disagree, preferences in style are just habituations
15:49:27	apotheon	. . . and yet, that's not a compelling argument.
15:49:32	apotheon	(re: Associat0r . . .)
15:49:45	apotheon	"Sometimes, you need freedom." See how well that works?
15:49:49	apotheon	It convinces nobody of anything.
15:49:55	EXetoC	I think having to type underscores all the time for example is a big deal
15:51:37	apotheon	Mat2: In communities that develop their own styles, stylistic standards tend to emerge that suit the syntactic needs of the language, to some degree. It's not "just habituation". It provides cues to the coder and code reader about the semantic payload of the source by way of variances in stylistic features in a line of code.
15:52:18	apotheon	That's one reason that "one true style" across different languages is an *awful* idea.
15:52:52	dom96	I have never had a problem with style insensitivity in Nimrod. But the issue is not minor, I think we have lost many users because of this language characteristic. Some people won't even try the language because of it.
15:53:30	apotheon	Using dashes as word separators in tokens would be a terrible idea in C even if the - character wasn't used for arithmetic, but it's a great idea in Common Lisp for readability and ease of typing.
15:54:05	apotheon	dom96: Case insensitivity itself (as in BASIC and SQL) is a terrible idea. I agree with that.
15:54:58	dom96	apotheon: Why do you think that?
15:55:37	apotheon	It encourages shouting, for one thing.
15:56:01	Mat2	apotheon: The semantics of a language is logically a poor choice for assessing the efficiency of an algorithm because the processor architecture has no semantic meaning in the context of the runtime characteristics.
15:56:23	Associat0r	it also enciurages underscores
15:56:31	dom96	apotheon: shouting?
15:56:34	apotheon	It also leads to people inconsistently representing a particular token across the sources of a project.
15:56:39	apotheon	SHOUTING
15:57:03	dom96	You mean using ALLCAPS?
15:57:12	EXetoC	YEP
15:57:22	apotheon	Mat2: What does that have to do with anything I said?
15:57:28	apotheon	EXACTLY
15:57:33	apotheon	SHOUTING
15:58:49	dom96	Why are inconsistent tokens a problem?
15:58:59	apotheon	If I name something "datum", and call it "Datum" somewhere else, and "DATUM" in a third place, that's a hanging offense, because it makes it difficult to keep track of where "datum" is being used no matter what programming language I'm using.
15:59:32	Mat2	aoptheon: Statistics show no significance of different styles both in terms of readability. I also disagree that semantic payload of the source depends of style to some degree
15:59:53	apotheon	Mat2: 1. Statistics can be made to show anything.
16:00:01	apotheon	Mat2: 2. You got that backward, so it's no surprise you disagree.
16:00:19	Mat2	fine, so your own argument shows nothing ?
16:00:57	Mat2	ah ok, it was a wrong translation, sorry
16:01:01	apotheon	I can only assume you didn't understand my argument at all if that's what you think, but I have no idea what part of it you misunderstood, because your responses seem to have absolutely no connection to what I said other than the fact you initiated your replies with "apotheon:".
16:01:30	dom96	apotheon: what? Presumably if I wanted to check where a variable is being used in a case sensitive language I would simply search for it. Why can't I do that in a case insensitive language?
16:02:11	Mat2	apotheon: I have disabled automatical translation and now your statement makes sense to me
16:02:18	EXetoC	you can, assuming that the style is the same everywhere
16:02:45	apotheon	dom96: Does your need to know that a particular variable is being used only ever come up in a context-free manner that is served by text searches? Don't you ever want to be able to read code and understand it clearly, rather than just wondering where a particular variable is being used in total?
16:03:02	dom96	I'm sure all editors support case insensitive searching.
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16:03:43	EXetoC	nm, was thinking of style insensitivity
16:04:44	apotheon	I mean, sure, you can count how many times a variable appears in your sources that way, and you can see where a change to a variable's value in one place might affect things in other places that way, but text searches don't tell you that a particular variable you've seen before appeared in a surprising place when you're just reading the code in that place and not expecting to see it there (for
16:04:50	apotheon	instance).
16:04:58	dom96	apotheon: I can read variable names with varying case easily. Foo is the same as foo to me. I know that my Foo variable which is defined on line 1 is being used on line 5 where I see a 'foo' in my source code.
16:05:48	apotheon	If you're not specifically looking for it, it'll jump out at most programmers more clearly if it uses a consistent capitalization style. Maybe you're different from most programmers, though.
16:05:59	apotheon	For all I know, your brain may be mostly case-insensitive.
16:06:22	dom96	I think it's a case of habit.
16:06:35	apotheon	"case" of habit -- funny
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16:06:54	dom96	hrm?
16:07:16	*	dom96 must be missing the humour
16:08:10	apotheon	The F and f characters are distinct characters. Seeing them as the same letter is a matter of training, rather than of basic nature -- and, by training, we are prone to seeing them as conveying difference in meaning anyway (beginning of sentence meaning, or noun meaning in German, or proper noun meaning in English, et cetera), not as being *exactly* the same with no difference in usage, so in
16:08:16	apotheon	many ways it just reinforces that natural recognition of them as distinct characters.
16:08:46	apotheon	dom96: We were talking about case sensitivity, which refers to whether a letter was capitalized or not, and you referred to something being a case of habit, as in an instance.
16:09:01	apotheon	It's punny.
16:09:05	dom96	I see.
16:09:16	apotheon	. . . unless you didn't mean to use "case" to mean "instance".
16:09:54	Mat2	stlye is related to readability. For some languages it's also related to semantic but in both cases I do not see any arguments for prefering a specific style because at last it's the algorithm what's important - not its formulation
16:10:01	Associat0r	apotheon: the point isn't to make variables the most readable, but instead to make the structure of code more apparant
16:10:21	apotheon	Associat0r: I think I made that argument already.
16:10:29	Associat0r	underscores are just noise
16:10:30	dom96	apotheon: I did.
16:10:45	Associat0r	http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1iyp6v/is_there_a_really_an_empirical_difference_between/
16:10:51	apotheon	Associat0r: They can serve as cues for understanding the structure of the code.
16:10:53	Associat0r	also wastes space
16:11:10	Associat0r	apotheon: no they don't it makes variables not stand out on their own
16:11:13	apotheon	. . . unless the space used helps with clarity.
16:11:22	apotheon	Associat0r: So you say.
16:11:33	apotheon	Associat0r: Great argument. "I say this. Accept it or die."
16:11:43	Associat0r	spaces between variables help yes
16:11:49	apotheon	. . . or whatever consequence you imagine applies. Maybe it means I'm dumb, instead of meaning I die.
16:12:04	Associat0r	but spaces or underscores within variables hurt
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16:12:11	apotheon	Whatever it is, I find it a wholly unconvincing argument to have you just repeat your position.
16:12:36	Associat0r	apotheon: everything is explained in that thread
16:12:49	Mat2	readability is a subjective class. For a chinese readability can be very different to what people in europe will call readable !
16:13:10	apotheon	Well, I'm done with what I was doing here (where I'm sitting, that is -- not the IRC channel). I need to get on with my day. I think I'll just declare myself the "winner" by virtue of the fact that I actually explain my reasoning, while most others just repeat their positions with no support.
16:13:23	Associat0r	"CamelCase, on the other hand, lumps all the identifiers together such that it's clear where an ident ends, and where punctuation and whitespace begin. It makes for a much faster read, which helps tremendously when consuming a new API, or learning someone else's code."
16:13:35	dom96	Perhaps we should just quote our variables just like our strings to allow spaces in their names :P
16:14:07	Associat0r	dom96: we do that in F# for unit tests
16:14:48	dom96	I would imagine that no one would use such a language though.
16:15:11	Associat0r	I wouldn't use it for normal code
16:17:42	dom96	Perhaps Nimrod's problem is not that it is Style insensitive, perhaps the problem is that Google/Mozilla is not behind it. If we get rid of SI, will people start to use Nimrod, or will they find another small issue which they will use as an excuse not to use the language.
16:18:29	Associat0r	dom96: that's the problem yes
16:19:34	dom96	It would be sad to go through such a big change only to not gain anything and in fact, lose so much. The users that we have now are all used to SI now, I know I am...
16:20:53	Associat0r	I never saw style insensitivity as an excuse to not learn a language
16:21:21	Mat2	with that I can agree
16:21:57	EXetoC	I'm only a little annoyed by how the types are name as a result
16:22:05	EXetoC	*named
16:24:11	dom96	Associat0r: I fear that the people in this IRC channel may be the people who share your view. And the rest simply stopped reading after they figured out that Nimrod is style insensitive.
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16:28:43	Associat0r	dom96: I really don't think so, which other mainstream lang enforces style?
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16:29:04	dom96	Associat0r: None that I know of.
16:29:22	dom96	Haskell comes closest, it enforces types to start with an uppercase letter.
16:29:37	dom96	Which I think is pretty elegant.
16:29:39	Associat0r	but it's not mainstream
16:30:13	dom96	hrm, what do you define as 'mainstream'?
16:30:42	Associat0r	mainstream as in the top 10 of langs used
16:30:47	Associat0r	or maybe top 5
16:31:19	Associat0r	anyway popular langs the regular joe knows about
16:32:30	dom96	yeah, there are none.
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16:33:14	Associat0r	it's seriously a non-issue, those people who complained will find other issues for why not to adopt the lang
16:33:18	Associat0r	that
16:33:31	Associat0r	's not to say style enforcement is a bad thing
16:33:44	vegai	Associat0r: go does some style enforcing
16:33:52	vegai	as does python, I would say
16:33:56	Associat0r	but it's not mainstream yet
16:34:20	dom96	What style enforcing does Python do?
16:34:20	vegai	oh, you were talking of identifier names. Ok, so python doesn't do that really
16:34:29	Associat0r	also does the Go compiler really reject other styles or is it a separate tool?
16:34:29	vegai	I was thinking of indentation, but nevermind
16:34:31	dom96	ahh.
16:34:44	Associat0r	also Python doesn't enforce style I use camelCase there without problems
16:34:57	vegai	Associat0r: it uses capital letters to define private/public of various things
16:35:17	vegai	...but it's debatable whether that is really style enforcing either
16:36:02	EXetoC	the PEP 8 hitmen do, though :>
16:38:51	Associat0r	for people to adopt your lang there should be some big company behind it or has todo something with Javascript and the web
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16:41:56	dom96	perhaps some company will notice nimrod and buy Araq's creation.
16:42:44	EXetoC	c(:)
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17:06:11	Associat0r	dom96: o I also forgot, if it's on the JVM it's chances are higher too
17:06:42	dom96	over my dead body :P
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17:08:39	*	Mat2 found an easy way compiling efficient code for iAtom
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17:16:41	Mat2	these CPU is well (and restrictive) designed I must say
17:40:55	apotheon	What big companies were behind Perl, PHP, Python, and Ruby when they saw their early mass adoptions?
17:41:32	dom96	How did those languages succeed then?
17:42:02	apotheon	Perl was something that didn't exist at the time, and it struck a chord.
17:42:35	apotheon	Python was in many ways seen as a reaction to Perl, and people who had grown sick and tired of certain aspects of Perl but still needed something to fill that niche adopted it.
17:42:44	apotheon	PHP was actually an offshoot of Perl, initially.
17:42:50	apotheon	Ruby had a "killer app".
17:44:03	apotheon	I don't really think that Nimrod should be aiming to be the next C++ or Java or whatever, anyway. I think it should be aiming to be something more like the next Scheme or Haskell, but specifically targeted at C users. That's how it'll succeed. You don't have to be top-ten to succeed, after all.
17:44:37	apotheon	Once you're getting a solid community behind it, then maybe think about figuring out how to hit the next stratum.
17:45:13	apotheon	Languages that go straight from sea level to Mars tend to suck. Look at the examples: C++, Java, C#, Visual Basic . . .
17:45:18	dom96	Yes, I would be happy if Nimrod was as popular as Haskell.
17:45:37	dom96	But we're not growing fast enough for that.
17:46:19	EXetoC	there are so many new-ish languages that people find interesting
17:46:57	apotheon	Things that can be achieved, without some outside agency, that can help to boost its popularity to that level should be considered. A book, some "killer app" kinda things, and a rich library ecosystem with a good library distribution system, are all good examples of that sort of thing.
17:48:08	Mat2	how about using nimrod for an effective operating-system with some applications most people want use ?
17:48:15	apotheon	If you can also figure out which programmers out there are most likely to appreciate what Nimrod has to offer, you might target them, as well -- and, in the process, try to avoid offending them or disenfranchising them with language design decisions that aren't really germane to the important benefits of Nimrod per se.
17:48:42	apotheon	Writing an operating system is a *huge* project, and then you've just shifted the popularity problem from the language to the OS.
17:49:00	Mat2	exactly !
17:49:13	apotheon	I think it's much, much harder to make an OS popular than a programming language.
17:49:20	EXetoC	huge indeed. wouldn't be of any practical use obviously, but I'm sure people would be impressed
17:50:02	apotheon	If you can, say, duplicate the MINIX 3 kernel in all its important particulars, using Nimrod, that'd be an interesting curiosity, but I'm not sure it would do much for Nimrod's popularity in the long run.
17:50:07	Mat2	you don't need a huge os in my opinion - an effective would be enough
17:50:17	apotheon	It doesn't have to be a huge OS to be a huge project.
17:50:28	apotheon	I'm kinda assuming you'd want the OS to be something someone could actually use . . .
17:50:31	dom96	I've tried doing the same thing as https://github.com/charliesome/rustboot
17:50:44	dom96	You can see the difference in popularity.
17:50:51	dom96	https://github.com/dom96/nimkernel
17:50:57	apotheon	. . . and siphoning that much creativity and effort away from Nimrod itself to feed the OS project is probably not cost-effective strategy.
17:50:59	Mat2	apotheon: yes
17:51:10	EXetoC	effective? :p
17:51:16	dom96	Even though my version does even more...
17:51:28	dom96	People in the reddit thread failed to notice that it's even written in Nimrod.
17:51:55	Mat2	ok, that speak of the people in the reddit thread
17:51:58	apotheon	The upshot is that I think building an OS as a marketing strategy when you're an independent project is a losing proposition.
17:52:22	Mat2	probably you're right
17:52:32	Mat2	but it can be worth the try
17:53:11	apotheon	I think I'm going to put off doing anything much with Nimrod, by the way, until I see how this style enforcement thing hashes out. I just don't have the time to screw around with something that might be completely invalid and, ultimately, painful to use in six months.
17:53:22	Mat2	and I think most programmers are more impressed from 'huge' projects (has nothing to do with rationality, only psychology)
17:53:38	EXetoC	sure
17:53:39	apotheon	Mat2: Pick a "huge" project that isn't actually a huge project, then.
17:54:10	Mat2	well I do already
17:54:12	apotheon	How pure is Nimrod's self-hosting at this point, by the way?
17:54:22	EXetoC	I'm fine with maybe marketing with that in mind, as long as design decisions aren't :>
17:54:53	EXetoC	ok that was a badly composed sentence
17:55:01	apotheon	Yeah, I had no idea what you were saying.
17:55:25	apotheon	dom96: Do you know the answer to my question?
17:55:47	dom96	100% pure?
17:55:52	dom96	It's written completely in Nimrod.
17:55:59	apotheon	In general, I think that programming language geeks who like compiled languages won't take a language seriously if it's not substantially self-hosting.
17:56:04	apotheon	dom96: Cool beans.
17:56:48	EXetoC	good thing it is then
17:57:09	dom96	The compiler is indeed a "huge" project.
17:57:28	apotheon	That should be highlighted as a brag point, then.
17:58:10	apotheon	As for me . . . I'll take a language seriously if I like the language itself, if the licensing isn't contentious, and if it accomplishes stuff I want to be able to do. Bonus points if it obsolesces something awful.
17:58:30	dom96	apotheon: I wish you would just do something with Nimrod. You said that you would on the condition that we would change to a copyfree license, and we did. Where are these projects of yours?
17:59:13	apotheon	dom96: I said that thinking Nimrod was basically a defined language with just some minor stuff needing to be ironed out. This style enforcement thing is a huge change, conceptually, though.
18:00:42	apotheon	dom96: Also . . . I spent four weeks with a (temporary) full-time job which left me drained and uncreative whenever I wasn't working, so I haven't done *any* coding for the last month or so. I'm finally starting to get my life back on track, and was starting to show my face in here again with an eye toward writing a browser-agnostic bookmarking tool when I found out that in six months it might
18:00:48	apotheon	be invalid code because of this style enforcement thing.
18:02:00	Mat2	try the code-translation tool Araq mentioned in the forum
18:02:08	apotheon	An image manager tool is another one in the queue, as is an SMTP client.
18:02:15	dom96	Well that sucks. I don't think Araq will just change things on a whim though, he will provide a transition path.
18:02:22	dom96	Yeah, what Mat2 said.
18:02:55	apotheon	Mat2: I don't want to just translate my code into a style I'm going to find painful to use. At that point, I'd just abandon the project and see if anyone else liked it enough to pick it up -- and I'm not sure that won't be the case right now.
18:03:16	apotheon	I'd rather write code in a language I know will still be palatable in six months.
18:03:38	*	BitPuffin joined #nimrod
18:03:46	EXetoC	several people have opposed the static enforcing though, so we'll see what happens
18:04:16	apotheon	"we'll see what happens" is exactly my strategy with Nimrod right now
18:05:23	apotheon	Oh, by the way, I have a great idea for a crazy "huge" project to build Nimrod popularity -- and I think it's a much easier niche to break into than OSes.
18:05:33	dom96	oh?
18:05:56	apotheon	Make a fast, well-designed browser rendering engine that is substantially toolkit-agnostic.
18:06:08	Mat2	good idea
18:06:21	dom96	So exactly what mozilla is doing using rust? :P
18:06:26	Mat2	but how is that easier than os development ?
18:06:35	apotheon	I think it'd be much quicker to get the thing up to speed as a working, useful project. The only major downside is maintenance going forward, because of the changing standards for the web.
18:06:37	dom96	yeah, what Mat2 said.
18:06:55	EXetoC	dom96: not much
18:07:04	apotheon	dom96: Servo? Meh. It's basically just a Mozilla project on the side, kinda like Microsoft's "Singularity" kernel for the OS market.
18:07:20	dom96	EXetoC: ?
18:07:29	Mat2	Singularity is a ggod example I have in mind
18:07:33	apotheon	dom96: Either it'll go nowhere, or it'll just be the new Mozilla kernel. A Nimrod rendering engine would be new/original/independent/different.
18:07:37	Mat2	^good
18:07:50	EXetoC	s/^/* :p
18:08:13	EXetoC	hm, maybe I need to escape it
18:08:26	apotheon	Also . . . give the rendering engine a copyfree license so I can get the Copyfree Initiative to pimp it.
18:08:46	apotheon	s/ggod/good/
18:08:49	apotheon	(problem solved)
18:09:10	apotheon	At present, the only copyfree licensed rendering engine is the one used by w3m, which is pretty sad.
18:09:25	apotheon	Servo had some potential for that, but then the developers went stupid.
18:09:49	dom96	It would be pretty hard to break into the rendering engine "market".
18:09:50	EXetoC	oh
18:10:00	*	BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
18:10:10	apotheon	dom96: Not as hard as you think, I think.
18:10:21	dom96	Far better to go after something which has a potential for earning you lots of money.
18:10:35	apotheon	dom96: Mozilla explicitly rejects rendering engine portability right now. We're basically down to WebKit-only for independent browser projects these days.
18:11:25	apotheon	dom96: The browser market *desperately* needs a rendering engine that is designed for reuse in different browsers other than WebKit, especially given the stupidities of WebKit design.
18:12:07	apotheon	dom96: In fact, if you give it an API accessible from other languages such as C and Go, I'm pretty sure the xombrero project would consider jumping from WebKit to the Nimrod rendering engine, if it meets the criteria I described above.
18:12:57	apotheon	Also . . . things like feature bounties and consulting have the potential to earn you a lot of money if you create a rendering engine that catches on at all.
18:13:40	dom96	It does sound like a fun project heh
18:14:09	apotheon	If the Nimrod language itself hashes out to something I like, I'd love to pitch in some effort on some of the rendering engine project scutwork.
18:14:22	apotheon	(. . . as a way to learn the language, among other reasons.)
18:14:43	dom96	Well I most likely won't be starting such a project.
18:15:34	dom96	But would contribute if someone else creates it.
18:16:42	apotheon	It might make sense to have a page with a list of project ideas, where the rendering engine thing could be listed. For each thing listed, indicate reasons it would be a good idea in its own right, reasons it would be good to do it with Nimrod, and reasons it would be good for Nimrod to do it.
18:17:30	apotheon	Even if you don't want to start the project, you can help encourage others to do so.
18:17:35	apotheon	dom96: What projects are you working on?
18:18:06	dom96	I'm currently working on an async macro which replicates C#'s await functionality.
18:18:47	apotheon	Hm. Is there anything you're working on, in Nimrod, that would be more conceptually accessible to people who won't necessarily code in Nimrod?
18:18:51	dom96	And of course I have Aporia, Nimbuild, Nimforum, jester, babel, my gameboy emulator, and a lot of other projects ideas pending.
18:19:08	apotheon	Oh, right, you make all the cool stuff, I guess.
18:19:36	vegai	21:09 < apotheon> Servo had some potential for that, but then the developers went stupid.
18:19:41	vegai	what does this refer to?
18:19:52	apotheon	licensing
18:19:57	vegai	aah.
18:20:12	apotheon	Amazingly, I remembered the context of that comment right away.
18:20:36	dom96	apotheon: I have plans to make Aporia language-agnostic and a competitor to Sublime text.
18:20:56	apotheon	. . . and copyfree?
18:21:02	dom96	perhaps
18:21:13	apotheon	(not that it's likely to matter much to me on a personal level; I'll probably keep using vi)
18:21:26	apotheon	(it'd be nice to be able to add it to the copyfree list of software, though)
18:23:10	dom96	Sadly, I only have one month of summer holidays left. It's nice to see some of the new people helping me with my projects, but I would love to see more.
18:24:17	apotheon	I'm actually at a kind of turning point in technology selection for copyfree.org back end. I need to decide what tools (including language) I'll use for the major rewrite I'm planning.
18:24:27	apotheon	I'm guessing I'll end up using Ruby, at this point.
18:24:40	dom96	:\
18:26:04	apotheon	It's just bad timing, I guess. Nimrod's not in a state of language stability where I can reasonably choose it.
18:26:29	apotheon	I might go with Go. I doubt I actually need any of the benefits Nimrod provides over Go for that project.
18:27:37	apotheon	dom96: Is there any chance I could convince you to drop the advertising clause from babel's license?"
18:27:40	apotheon	s/"//
18:28:01	Araq	apotheon: lol
18:28:28	Araq	the enforced style and the old SI are really the same design
18:28:31	apotheon	Of Aporia, Nimbuild, Nimforum, jester, and babel, only Aporia and babel are currently ineligible for inclusion in the copyfree software list right now.
18:28:48	Mat2	hi Araq
18:28:52	apotheon	Araq: Okay . . .
18:29:01	Araq	however ... I failed to make this clear
18:29:08	Araq	utterly failed
18:29:26	dom96	Araq: You're still kind of failing, as I am a bit confused.
18:30:21	Araq	look, it's 2013 and your tool should really be able to render the code like you wish
18:30:34	Araq	this is what SI is all about
18:30:40	dom96	apotheon: argh. I like my advertising clause. It helps me sleep at night. Maybe if you decide to use Nimrod instead of Go my thoughts will turn in your favour :P
18:31:14	apotheon	Araq: What exactly does SI stand for?
18:31:19	Araq	however the SI also lead to the T/P prefixes which cost us 80% of all potential users I'm afraid ...
18:31:29	Araq	SI = style insensitivity
18:31:31	apotheon	dom96: We'll see how style enforcement turns out.
18:31:52	dom96	However, I was planning on using a similar advertising clause for Aporia.
18:31:57	apotheon	Araq: Prefixes that are reminiscent of Hungarian notation really annoy a lot of programmers.
18:32:04	Araq	so ... the new design is a weird compromise that the first char is CS
18:32:18	dom96	Because I like the name Aporia, and I don't want people to use it :P
18:32:33	Araq	so that 'var parser: Parser' is valid (well it is now I already but that works due to special scoping rules)
18:32:47	apotheon	dom96: This is what I mean by "advertising clause" . . .
18:32:48	apotheon	3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software
18:32:48	apotheon	must display the following acknowledgement:
18:32:48	apotheon	This product includes software developed by Dominik Picheta.
18:33:06	dom96	I see.
18:33:09	apotheon	dom96: I don't see how that stops people from using the name of the software. You're talking about a poor man's trademark, basically.
18:33:16	apotheon	(re: Aporia)
18:33:26	dom96	Yep. I was talking about 4.
18:33:47	apotheon	Clause 4 doesn't disqualify a license for copyfree compliance.
18:34:15	dom96	But you're right. Clause 4 means nothing unless I get a proper trademark.
18:34:19	apotheon	. . . so, while I find it a little silly personally, go ahead and keep it if you like it that much.
18:34:47	dom96	Although doesn't it still have an effect if someone wants to fork my software and keep the 'babel' name?
18:34:54	dom96	in that they can't do that.
18:34:58	apotheon	Clause 4 doesn't mean nothing without a trademark (and trademarks are actually evil, as enforced by law). It is effective in cases where people are using your source code.
18:35:02	apotheon	(in theory, anyway)
18:35:08	apotheon	(the courts have the final say)
18:35:42	Araq	however ... people have some irrational fear that I sometimes write this_that and then later thisThat and make it harder to read
18:36:04	Araq	which is complete backwards
18:36:09	Araq	*completely
18:36:11	apotheon	Araq: What exactly is under consideration for the Nimrod language, regarding style enforcement, then?
18:36:40	Araq	on the contrary, having both this_that and thisThat and they mean *different* things is what's really confusing
18:37:06	Araq	if they mean the same, it's can automatically be transformed back into consistency
18:37:18	apotheon	Araq: Is there a clear explanation of the whole shebang somewhere that I can read?
18:37:29	Araq	unfortunately not ...
18:37:44	dom96	what about that forum thread I linked?
18:37:58	apotheon	dom96: link again, please
18:38:01	apotheon	if you have it handy
18:38:06	dom96	http://forum.nimrod-code.org/t/191
18:38:15	Mat2	I found it very instructive
18:38:55	apotheon	dom96: I'll read it again (less skimming, this time) and maybe run my interpretation of it past Araq to see if I know what I'm talking about.
18:40:37	apotheon	Araq: Okay . . . is it the case that you're not talking about making the actual language implementation enforce style, but will instead just provide a prettifier for those who want to enforce a particular style?
18:41:06	Araq	apotheon: not quite
18:41:13	apotheon	Please clarify, then.
18:41:31	Araq	people argued somewhat convincingly that a unified style helps them read code on github
18:41:56	Araq	and so this enforced style is for code that you have to read when you're not in your IDE/editor
18:42:30	apotheon	Is it a code display prettifier that doesn't actually touch the underlying code in its stored form, then?
18:42:44	*	apotheon is confused.
18:43:43	apotheon	"Yes, apotheon -- you are obviously confused, and easily so."
18:44:12	Araq	the display prettifier currently makes everything the same style for github, but it's also good for rendering the identifiers as you like
18:44:15	apotheon	I'm starting to feel like the dumb kid in class because I'm still not sure exactly what Araq is trying to say.
18:44:53	Araq	so ... it's actually pretty simple: all code is stored the same way, but can be viewed as prefered if you happen to have a proper editor plugin
18:45:06	apotheon	Will the compiler reject anything for style violations like use of underscores in variable, constant, or method names, or for use capitalization in the wrong place (or lack of capitalization where it should be)?
18:45:59	apotheon	Does "proper editor plugin" support stuff like vi?
18:46:04	Araq	my plan was to make that optional via pragmas, apotheon
18:46:17	apotheon	Opt-in, or opt-out?
18:46:28	Araq	the default being turned ON
18:46:42	Araq	but now I think the default should be turned OFF :P
18:47:00	apotheon	"use strict"
18:47:02	Araq	since I got so much heavy resistance ;-)
18:47:02	apotheon	(har)
18:47:49	apotheon	What about the "plugin" thing? Is this something that requires A) your editor to have a tractable plugin architecture for this and B) someone to have written the plugin specifically for that editor, so that people with plaintext editors are SOL?
18:48:18	Araq	apotheon: we already have a VIM plugin and the compiler is written with these things in mind
18:48:23	apotheon	s/for that editor/for that editor's plugin architecture/
18:48:33	Araq	the compiler supports a sockets API for querying
18:48:41	apotheon	Araq: Is there anything that would work with, say, nvi?
18:48:51	Araq	no idea what nvi is
18:49:03	apotheon	It's a more old-school vi implementation.
18:49:14	Araq	*shrug*
18:49:23	apotheon	Basically, to work with nvi, it'd probably need some kind of editor-agnostic filter that sits between the editor and the file, I think.
18:49:38	Araq	if you want to live in the 70ies, why even bother with a new programming language?
18:49:43	apotheon	So . . . I guess the answer is A) yes and B) yes.
18:50:25	apotheon	Araq: The key isn't so much nvi as it is "Will this require me to choose from a list of 'approved' or specifically supported editors?"
18:50:41	apotheon	I just think nvi serves as an effective litmus for that.
18:51:12	EXetoC	surely you can do without a plugin then
18:51:25	apotheon	. . . especially considering that something that works like nvi will be pretty much everywhere except most MS Windows systems, while something from the approved/supported list is unlikely to be there unless someone specifically put it there.
18:51:50	Araq	"except most MS Windows systems" exludes many machines so
18:51:51	apotheon	EXetoC: You could do without a plugin, anyway. I'm just trying to figure out how broadly The Plan will actually apply.
18:51:57	apotheon	Araq: not my point
18:52:16	apotheon	If you'd stop getting defensive about it, this conversation might be a lot smoother.
18:53:33	EXetoC	feel free to merge my branch any time. 4-line diff :>
18:53:57	Araq	apotheon: also we have a chicken and egg problem: why declare the language stable when we have few users anyway?
18:54:27	apotheon	I'm not saying you should declare the language stable. You probably shouldn't if there are big changes you still want to make.
18:55:10	apotheon	The more stable it is, the more likely people are to want to start using it, of course, so you shouldn't break it from time to time just because you don't have a lot of users -- but if you have good reasons to break things while settling on a final design, you should do it.
18:55:44	Araq	fair enough
18:55:55	apotheon	For me, personally -- not for the project, or for everyone in the world, or whatever, just for me -- it doesn't make sense to use Nimrod for the projects I have in mind if I'm not sure I won't decide I don't like the language in six months. That's all I was saying about that.
18:56:40	apotheon	So . . . to summarize . . .
18:58:00	apotheon	My impression is that the language will not assign semantic import to things like capital letters or underscores by default (most likely), but there will be a default style enforcement scheme that can be turned on with a pragma, and there are plans to offer editor display style filter plugins for the editors you guys commonly use.
18:58:05	apotheon	Is that about the size of it?
18:59:07	apotheon	Araq: . . . and I'm not sure what this means for type signature prefixes, at this point.
19:00:33	Araq	apotheon: well capital letters are meaningful but only for the first character which allows us to get rid of the type signature prefixes
19:00:45	Araq	that's the plan anyway
19:01:01	apotheon	Araq: For what purposes are initial capitals meaningful?
19:01:07	apotheon	(according to The Plan)
19:01:16	Araq	to distinguish types from non-types
19:01:25	apotheon	Is it types that get caps?
19:01:29	Araq	yeah
19:01:47	apotheon	Integer would be a type, and integer would be a variable or whatever -- right?
19:01:52	Araq	right
19:02:25	apotheon	If all it takes to get rid of the type signature prefixes is capitals being mandatory and reserved for types, I think that change is pure win.
19:02:44	apotheon	I don't know if there's a better way to do that, but in absence of a better way, I think that's a fantastic plan.
19:02:53	Araq	wow thanks
19:02:57	apotheon	. . . specifically in terms of not annoying programmers in general.
19:03:59	apotheon	I prefer it that way myself, too, but it's not such a big change that it'd aggravate me too much if you didn't make that change, assuming the prefixes would themselves only be used for types. I think there's a huge, very pervasive bias against such prefixes, though.
19:04:22	Araq	apotheon: I agree
19:04:26	apotheon	The way people bitch about the NS prefixes in ObjC, for instance, is pretty astonishing.
19:04:41	Araq	however currently every common type is spelt like 'int' in Nimrod
19:04:47	apotheon	ah
19:04:52	Araq	so we need this transition tool
19:05:08	EXetoC	and the underscores? people are concerned with grepability, though I think it's a minor issue in practice, because most people adhere to the official style, right?
19:05:37	Araq	EXetoC: the underscores are no problem for nimgrep and even for grep (_)? is easy enough to do
19:05:49	apotheon	I might say that (if it doesn't clash with something else) something like :int would work, too, except the anti-Perl orthodoxy is rabid about "sigils", which could severely damage the language's acceptance rate amongst key demographics like the Pythonistas.
19:05:50	Araq	and indeed the official style doesn't use them
19:06:33	apotheon	Okay, sounds good to me.
19:06:54	EXetoC	didn't know it dealt with that
19:07:05	EXetoC	makes sense
19:07:47	apotheon	Y'know, one reason I dislike style enforcement in a language is the simple fact that it stops pathological subcommunities that habitually write shitty code from identifying themselves as clearly as would be ideal. Consider GNU style for C code -- one of the clearest indicators I've ever seen that the subcommunity in question is incompetent to write good code.
19:08:16	Araq	apotheon: you're highly biased about this one though ;-)
19:08:50	apotheon	Seriously -- have you ever tried to read GNU code, even after prettifying it so it uses a more tractable style (say, KNF)?
19:08:54	apotheon	It's fucking *awful*.
19:09:28	EXetoC	because of the indented braces? yeah, wth :>
19:09:45	apotheon	If the GNU guys wrote good code, I'd be sad that their code was locked up in awful licensing. Because they write bad code, I can be happy that people will be inspired to reimplement the same stuff in other styles *and* with other licenses at the same time.
19:10:16	apotheon	The fugliness of the GNU style just adds to my astonishment at the imbecility of core GNU coders.
19:10:37	apotheon	There's about one good thing ever made for GNU, I think: the grep algorithm.
19:10:55	Mat2	well, there must have some reasons
19:10:57	apotheon	. . . and it annoys the shit out of me, because it keeps people from wanting to use other grep implementations.
19:11:59	apotheon	I think a lot of GNU style and coding conventions developed around the GNU community's emacs fetish. It's fine if you want to use emacs, but you shouldn't write all code in ways designed to conform to your editor of choice so that it becomes painful to edit your code in other editors.
19:12:12	EXetoC	it's easy to fall into that licensing trap
19:12:21	apotheon	There are other problems, too, though I think Araq would disagree with me on some of those.
19:12:34	apotheon	EXetoC: What do you mean?
19:13:51	apotheon	note: I don't want to get into a fight over licensing in this channel. I would like to influence licensing on Nimrod stuff, of course, but I'll try to keep it non-ideological here because it would be rude to turn this channel into a warzone.
19:14:44	apotheon	Araq: You've managed to convince me that I should see if I have any trivial projects to use as experimental contexts in which to use Nimrod for the near future. Thanks.
19:15:14	rubino123	For nimrod to take off: 1) excellent documentation with examples -> think a community built "python module fo the week" but for nimrod 2) take on one of the big benchamrks like the pypy benchmarks or the language shootout documents
19:15:28	apotheon	(probably primarily things where I can just write it and post it to the web somewhere, then forget it if I don't care to continue working on it, without feeling like I've wasted my time, at least for now)
19:16:33	apotheon	rubino123: Documentation quality is definitely an important factor for many people. If a culture of documentation improvement can be fostered, I think that could be huge.
19:16:49	apotheon	("huge" as in "a big help")
19:17:27	rubino123	apotheon; i think i read a report that the rise of languages is related to the amount and quality of documentation
19:17:47	apotheon	Which comes first, though?
19:17:54	rubino123	amount
19:18:09	apotheon	I mean the rise of the language or the amount-and-quality of documentation.
19:18:23	rubino123	the beatles were succussful because of the amount of songs they wrote; not necessarily the quality of each one
19:18:44	apotheon	Popularity of a language can attract more help developing documentation. Documentation can attract more popularity. Which leads the others in the study behind the report?
19:18:48	dom96	rubino123: In regards to '2)', somebody ported the shootout benchmarks to Nimrod a while ago, would be nice for someone to run them again, i'm sure further optimisations can be made also: https://bitbucket.org/jmb/shootout/wiki/Home
19:19:07	rubino123	Apple during Steve jobs was successful becuase he forced huge amount of itertations until he felt a product was ready for release
19:20:03	rubino123	I would keep a benchmarks tab on the nimrod page then to watch nimrods progression
19:20:10	rubino123	just like pypy
19:20:23	apotheon	That might not be a bad idea.
19:20:47	dom96	I am planning on making nimbuild run some benchmarks and create a nice graph showing the results with each commit :)
19:20:49	apotheon	PyPy, by the way, is the one thing I like best about Python.
19:20:58	apotheon	(coming from someone who doesn't really like Python)
19:21:12	rubino123	That said may people in the python community still think pypy is just experimental and fold in the ruby community know the rubinous vm exists but are still not compelled to use it --- speed is in itself not always power
19:21:19	EXetoC	quantity over quality eh? well, we have several few euclidean vector implementations I think :>
19:22:09	rubino123	EXetoC, just use the best iteration
19:22:11	apotheon	I used Rubinius as my primary Ruby implementation for a while, but honestly there's a certain amount of laziness that makes me less inclined to use it most of the time when I don't have a specific need for it.
19:23:50	EXetoC	rubino123: real programmers have their own sets of wheels :-)
19:24:52	rubino123	EXetoC, hopefully their are not forced to maintain their own standard lib
19:25:05	rubino123	Dlang
19:25:36	EXetoC	because of the GC issues?
19:26:33	apotheon	rubino123: Who? (re: maintaining distinct stdlib)
19:26:36	rubino123	possibly I have only read about it; but I thought there was a major rift between the users and the devs on what was a proper stdlib; I think language idioms were a large part of it
19:27:03	apotheon	"hopefully their are not forced to maintain their own standard lib"
19:27:08	apotheon	Who is "they"?
19:27:13	apotheon	s/is/are/ really
19:27:26	rubino123	users; the great programmers
19:27:37	apotheon	I have no idea what we're talking about, now.
19:27:47	apotheon	Is this about PyPy or Rubinius or Nimrod or something else?
19:27:51	rubino123	Ruby / Python -. lets commodity level programmers get great suff done
19:28:00	EXetoC	apotheon: I think misspelling english words is the norm
19:28:19	apotheon	EXetoC: What?
19:28:22	apotheon	I'm lost.
19:28:33	apotheon	I'll just bow out of the discussion for now, I guess. I can't figure out what's being discussed.
19:28:39	rubino123	sorry; I have not even looking at the text before I send
19:29:08	EXetoC	same. I don't think I've said anything useful in a while
19:30:26	rubino123	This is about giving a good language the best chances of becomming popular with users by following the best practices of other modern languages - python, ruby, haskell (though haskell has only become popular recently after a decade+ of development)
19:31:08	apotheon	I think Haskell only started gaining ground because of a spike in popularity of the idea of "functional programming".
19:31:30	apotheon	. . . which probably started fading because of the fear, uncertainty, and doubt surrounding Haskell's whole monad situation.
19:32:37	Mat2	what, if popularity of newer programming-languages have nothing to do with practices or features but primary with social dynamics ?
19:33:04	apotheon	That's not always the case, but it certainly seems to have been the case with Haskell.
19:33:09	rubino123	Mat2: I think it has everything to do with readability
19:34:06	rubino123	On two seperate occasiona I have hear the Quant Managers say their decision for a language was mainly and first due to readability of the code they had to approve
19:34:15	apotheon	Similarly, Logo was actually kind of an excellent language that could have gone a lot further than it did, but it was a victim of its own success within the narrow niche of "educational language". Because it was so successful in targeting that niche, it got pigeonholed as a toy language for children, and BASIC ended up being regarded as a more "serious" language.
19:34:20	rubino123	OCAML and python
19:34:25	apotheon	. . . even though BASIC was a worse language pretty much every way.
19:34:29	rubino123	Haskell is in that camp
19:35:20	rubino123	Has anyone used the Julia language?
19:35:23	apotheon	I think OCaml is mostly a victim of its bizarre licensing constraints and tightly controlled centralized development in France.
19:35:47	Mat2	hmm, there exist a trend to formal declaration (in spirit of a common, mathematical notation). In my experience most people which are not firm reading symbolical representations have difficulties understanding such code
19:36:35	rubino123	agreed on OCaml; it seems to have fallen behind in developement as it seems strange that a functional based language never learned to handle multicore as soon or easily as the rest of the pack
19:36:51	Mat2	probably that's more relevant to functional languages however
19:37:18	apotheon	Y'know, one thing that would help any indie language gain popularity is being "first" at something that a lot of people think is cool, or useful in some kind of revolutionary way.
19:37:30	apotheon	(not necessarily literally first, but positioned that way)
19:38:05	rubino123	Anyone see the "Future of Programming" talk?
19:38:07	rubino123	http://worrydream.com/dbx/
19:38:44	apotheon	Mat2: I dunno that it's convined to FP languages. Look at Smalltalk. The question that comes to my mind is whether corporate backing or bureaucratic design was the more significant factor in Java eating its lunch.
19:38:52	apotheon	s/convined/confined/
19:40:59	rubino123	Apotheon: I think smalltalk, like ruby tries to do too much; the philosophy is there are 10 different ways to do one thing where is python and ruby on rails for that matter follow the "there is one best way" to do things
19:41:12	rubino123	convention over configuration
19:41:55	Mat2	hmm I had readed an interview with its creator some time ago. Java is an evolvement from Oak from which some quirks remain
19:42:03	apotheon	Smalltalk and Ruby have had dramatically different popularity trends, though. I don't think TIMTOWTDI has anything in particular to do with it in this case.
19:42:30	apotheon	Mat2: Oak was the pre-release name for the project, yeah.
19:42:50	apotheon	I'm not sure why they changed it. I think I read something about that, but don't recall the details.
19:42:59	rubino123	apotheon: do not forget to compare language evolution
19:43:51	apotheon	rubino123: Okay . . .
19:44:20	Mat2	Sun had some copyright troubles with Oak because it share 'influences' from Self
19:44:37	Mat2	^shared
19:45:05	apotheon	Araq: Beware the temptation to think there's one silver bullet for language popularity, by the way. I'm sure you're aware of the temptation and the falsity of the idea there's such a silver bullet, but I figure a friendly reminder can't hurt.
19:46:27	apotheon	Mat2: How so? Wasn't Self a Sun project at the time?
19:47:58	Araq	apotheon: I know, no matter what I do, people complain ;-)
19:48:51	apotheon	har
19:49:23	apotheon	The lesson to take from that is that you shouldn't screw up your language in pursuit of a popularity silver bullet. Well, *a* lesson, anyway.
19:49:56	*	Endy joined #nimrod
19:50:21	Mat2	apotheon: No but some 'technology' of Self was feared to be not copyright free (that was nonsense of course)
19:51:43	Mat2	however, I don't see any similarities for myself so whatever these influence was (it can be it was the prototype-based object model) there discarded
19:52:09	Mat2	^it was discarded
19:52:12	apotheon	The only thing I know about that was borrowed from Self was some VM optimization.
19:53:36	Mat2	the Java VM is one of the worst example I know (beside pCode for UCSD Pascal)
19:53:58	apotheon	. . . or maybe it was the JIT compiler. I'm not sure.
19:54:10	apotheon	Something not particular to the *language*, per se, anyway.
19:54:23	Mat2	yes
19:54:23	apotheon	I have yet to meet a JVM I liked.
19:54:57	apotheon	The persistent process optimization the JVM does is impressive, but everything else about it seems to suck.
19:55:24	apotheon	(Keep in mind I'm not exactly an expert on the JVM, so take my comments for what they're worth.)
19:57:01	Mat2	its an academic approach fitting a complex JIT compiler to an ineffective and over complex VM just to compensate low performance
19:57:08	apotheon	Hey, I've got another idea for a decent project that could raise some popularity for Nimrod: a reasonably performant PDF rendering library under a license that has no license compatibility issues (thus, a copyfree license).
19:57:47	apotheon	Hell, if that happened I'd probably write a PDF viewer front-end myself, if someone didn't beat me to the creation of one I'd like.
19:58:41	Mat2	nice project
19:59:35	Mat2	I assume you do not like Poppler
20:00:05	apotheon	In general, I think making these projects usable from other languages will help boost widespread use of Nimrod on the back-end, which would raise awareness of it and give rise to more use of the language on the front-end as well.
20:00:19	Araq	apotheon: +1
20:00:21	apotheon	Poppler is pretty mediocre, and the license causes some legal incompatibilities at times.
20:00:30	Araq	really useful idea
20:00:33	apotheon	thanks
20:00:39	apotheon	I'm pretty good at useful ideas, I think.
20:01:04	Araq	however a PDF2Text that doesn't suck would also be sweet
20:01:35	apotheon	If someone who knows what he's doing gets these projects started -- rendering engine, PDF renderer -- I'd happily pitch in as a scutwork code monkey as a means to help me learn the language and support a project I like.
20:01:44	apotheon	Araq: Yeah, it would be pretty awesome.
20:02:23	apotheon	Poppler has been getting slower and slower for big PDFs, I think.
20:02:47	rubino123	R style dataframes could not hurt either
20:03:02	apotheon	rubino123: Elaborate, please. What do you mean by "R style dataframes"?
20:03:41	rubino123	R dataframes for exploratory data analysis
20:03:51	*	BitPuffin joined #nimrod
20:04:02	rubino123	the python library pandas made it a point to prot them to python and julia lang made it priority too
20:04:21	rubino123	prot = port
20:04:35	apotheon	As a relatively easy project that might be fun and might get some attention, and would pretty much have an endpoint goal so it doesn't become your whole life, there's the idea of the implementation of a complete set of Unix userland tools in Nimrod.
20:04:57	BitPuffin	apotheon: what was your idea for a project?
20:05:02	rubino123	I like that too
20:05:05	apotheon	rubino123: Yeah, good point, then. Get the numerical analysis people on board with Nimrod.
20:05:29	apotheon	BitPuffin: Uh . . . implementation of a complete set of Unix userland tools in Nimrod?
20:05:34	rubino123	Araq mentioned he has techincal computing in mind thus the strong template support
20:05:51	BitPuffin	apotheon: ah, cool. Including stuff like useradd?
20:06:34	apotheon	BitPuffin: Maybe, though that might be more OS-specific. I was thinking more stuff like pwd, grep, ed, sed, ls, and so on.
20:06:48	BitPuffin	apotheon: ah okay
20:06:55	BitPuffin	good way to learn
20:06:59	apotheon	I'm not sure about the stuff like useradd -- how portably that could be implemented.
20:07:16	apotheon	Yeah, I might tackle some userland tools as a way to get into Nimrod from the ground floor.
20:07:16	rubino123	Can nimrod be compiled into an arduino or arm MCU? An drone autopilot maybe ?? : )
20:07:29	apotheon	rubino123: good idea
20:08:08	apotheon	Arduino development (especially if it doesn't require a specific IDE) with Nimrod would be an awesome option to have.
20:09:59	rubino123	I think ability for diffusion into userland is the key here; microcontrollers and mobile developement might be the best way to go... Instead of web frameworks ala rails perhaps a mobile framework will be the next big big thing
20:10:33	apotheon	Basically, anything that can in principle replace GNU Coreutils (without necessarily matching its quirks and specific nonessential features) fits the requirements of my Unix userland tools idea.
20:10:45	Mat2	apotheon: I work on bringing up Nimrod to the duinomite
20:10:53	Associat0r	rubino123: my experience with Python is that there are also many ways todo things and most people don't even choose the best way
20:11:05	*	apotheon looks up duinomite.
20:11:06	Mat2	(on top of my own language)
20:11:31	apotheon	Associat0r: That's probably because they're too busy adhering to the orthodoxy.
20:12:28	*	Endy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
20:12:38	rubino123	Associat0r, sure but the great python programmers take the time to learn the "python idioms" which usually are the optimized way of doing things for low level code bytes
20:13:05	rubino123	class and object creation are areas of contention and open for interpretation
20:13:08	Mat2	low-level programming in phyton ?
20:13:09	Associat0r	apotheon: btw OCaml's problem is mostly that it was to be used for theorem proving and research
20:13:45	rubino123	Associat0r, theorem proving is why the math folks love the functional based languages
20:13:50	Associat0r	if you want an polished and supported ML with libs your only choiche is F#
20:14:23	Associat0r	rubino123: I mean most people don't even use the combinators like map in Python
20:14:42	rubino123	Associat0r: they are missing out
20:14:52	Associat0r	they seem to write out iterarions and stuff the long way
20:14:55	apotheon	Mat2: Tell me more about this DuinoMite stuff, please.
20:15:07	rubino123	Thought list comprehensions are somewhat more flexiable than map in and of itself
20:15:15	rubino123	thought = though
20:15:16	apotheon	It looks like an Arduino competitor from what I've found so far, but I'm not sure what would be better (or worse) than with Arduino, so far.
20:15:37	apotheon	Associat0r: What if you want ML without .NET?
20:16:16	dom96	Haskell.
20:16:23	Associat0r	rubino123: list comprehensions are a longer than a map
20:16:34	rubino123	longer but you can get more done in one line
20:16:50	Associat0r	Haskell isn't a ML
20:17:06	apotheon	Am I missing anything? http://paste.apotheon.net/?p=nimrod_projects
20:17:11	Associat0r	apotheon: what's the problem with .NET?
20:17:13	rubino123	complex processing / formating of data without lambdas
20:17:13	apotheon	(a list of good project ideas)
20:17:26	apotheon	Associat0r: Sometimes, you don't want to code for a particular framework platform.
20:17:31	apotheon	s/you/"you"/
20:17:51	Associat0r	apotheon: well you always do with a language that has a runtime and std library
20:17:52	apotheon	dom96: I wouldn't exactly call Haskell an "ML".
20:18:03	apotheon	Associat0r: No, I don't.
20:18:19	apotheon	Associat0r: I hope you're not trying to turn this into an OS war.
20:18:24	Associat0r	apotheon: yes you do unless you're doing systems programming
20:18:27	dom96	apotheon: It's close enough to F# and OCaml though, I think.
20:18:53	Associat0r	if you use OCaml you're gonna use the OCaml runtime and libraries
20:19:04	apotheon	dom96: I dunno. There are distinct differences. They may seem very similar to someone who doesn't really use FP languages in general, I guess.
20:19:17	Associat0r	if you use F# you're gonna use the F# libraries and runtime which happens to be .NET
20:19:33	dom96	What makes a language an "ML" language?
20:19:37	apotheon	dom96: I've actually really enjoyed SML, to the extent I've used it, but it's stuck in academia by the paltry state of its ecosystem.
20:20:03	Associat0r	dom96: Haskell is pure and has non-strict evaluation
20:20:16	apotheon	dom96: ML languages are languages descended from, and still significantly similar to, the original ML.
20:20:21	Associat0r	and higher kinds
20:20:28	rubino123	apotheon: port of the python standard lib
20:20:31	apotheon	dom96: SML and OCaml are, in practice, it for ML languages these days, I think.
20:20:50	apotheon	rubino123: The whole thing . . . ?
20:20:54	rubino123	jk
20:20:58	apotheon	har
20:21:10	BitPuffin	EXetoC: Why are the XYZ characters exported? I don't see the point
20:21:52	Associat0r	apotheon: I wasn't stirring up an OS war
20:22:00	BitPuffin	Hmm
20:22:01	dom96	apotheon: I think reactormonk worked on (is still working on?) arduino support.
20:22:11	BitPuffin	I wonder how I should represent a matrix..
20:22:31	BitPuffin	I think internally it should be a one dimensional array
20:22:41	apotheon	dom96: that's cool
20:22:43	EXetoC	hiding it seems a little pedantic, and it's useful documentation. exporting only when nimdoc is defined would be confusing
20:22:58	dom96	apotheon: Hrm, well I only used Haskell and looking at OCaml it seemed similar so I thought that it is also considered an ML language.
20:22:58	rubino123	can nimrod adopt apl / j syntax for matrix ops
20:23:14	BitPuffin	EXetoC: pedantic? I don't see how, exporting it seems excessive
20:23:38	BitPuffin	EXetoC: better to just document how to swizzle imo
20:24:43	BitPuffin	How do I get the length of a range?
20:25:26	rubino123	can nimrod have conventions that keep the programs in L1 cache (ala apl / k / j) for speed
20:25:54	rubino123	its conjecture on my part but I believe the apl family was optimized for the cpu caches
20:26:14	rubino123	according to wikipedia - i think
20:26:43	Mat2	yes, in addition to parallel processing (in modern systems - sadly all very expensive)
20:27:21	rubino123	a port of kbx would win alot of propritary finance shops
20:27:23	apotheon	Criminy, I haven't gotten any writing done for my work today.
20:27:28	rubino123	for kdb rather
20:27:49	rubino123	Apotheon; me too
20:28:01	rubino123	Its been great brain storming with you all but I got to go code
20:28:04	rubino123	for real
20:28:15	rubino123	and not just read and muse of it for a while
20:28:20	apotheon	I was talking about writing in English, actually, but . . . yeah, coding has been suffering for me lately, too.
20:28:25	apotheon	rubino123: Have fun.
20:28:38	*	rubino123 left #nimrod ("Leaving")
20:29:35	BitPuffin	Araq: Will it be able to override [] for array types soon?
20:31:22	EXetoC	I don't know if that's a good idea. maybe your type should be distinct
20:31:56	BitPuffin	hmm
20:31:59	BitPuffin	distinct array?
20:32:01	EXetoC	and then maybe provide a converter for it
20:32:19	BitPuffin	don't need that
20:32:51	BitPuffin	EXetoC: I wonder if marking it as distinct and then using the borrow pragma will stop me from overriding []
20:35:11	Araq	BitPuffin: yes
20:35:24	BitPuffin	Araq: to which thing? :)
20:36:57	Araq	I only read the highlighted question
20:37:50	BitPuffin	ah
20:37:52	BitPuffin	okay
20:38:07	BitPuffin	well then maybe making matrices a regular array will work too
20:38:27	BitPuffin	still though
20:38:43	BitPuffin	There is a problem because I have to use ranges
20:39:12	apotheon	dom96: Do you know where I could find something about reactormonk work on Arduino stuff?
20:39:18	BitPuffin	since I want the array to be of one dimension (because that makes OpenGL totally happy) I can't get the length
20:39:51	BitPuffin	C.low + C.high -1 doesn't work
20:40:51	BitPuffin	(C = Columns
20:40:52	BitPuffin	)
20:41:22	dom96	apotheon: No idea, I think he might've pushed something to his fork: https://github.com/Tass/Nimrod
20:41:35	apotheon	dom96: Okay, thanks.
20:42:24	apotheon	Hm. Old fork, judging by the license notice.
20:42:50	BitPuffin	is there a convention inside the code for nimrod how to spell constants?
20:42:57	EXetoC	BitPuffin: the alignment will be the same if you nest arrays
20:42:58	BitPuffin	I know that nimrod is type insensitive
20:43:09	EXetoC	or whatever it is you wanted to do
20:43:20	EXetoC	*byte size
20:43:29	Araq	BitPuffin: I use myConst mostly
20:43:33	BitPuffin	EXetoC: byte size is the same, but traversal is not afaik
20:43:39	BitPuffin	Araq: like a function?
20:43:43	BitPuffin	proc*
20:44:11	Araq	yes
20:44:50	EXetoC	a cast should do
20:45:00	BitPuffin	Araq: cool, thanks
20:45:07	Araq	why does 'len' not work for you?
20:45:14	Araq	I fixed it
20:45:28	EXetoC	in a function ideally, which would return a "ptr array..."
20:47:22	Araq	EXetoC: sounds like a disaster
20:47:30	Araq	returning a ptr array
20:48:01	EXetoC	it's just a workaround
20:48:36	EXetoC	a temporary one, most likely
20:49:37	Mat2	get some sleep. ciao
20:49:40	EXetoC	bb
20:49:49	*	Mat2 quit (Quit: Verlassend)
20:50:12	BitPuffin	Araq: it doesn't work on a range
20:50:58	EXetoC	can't you just hide the range stuff with templates for now?
20:51:12	Araq	well make it work for ranges then
20:51:42	BitPuffin	You mean contribute to system?
20:51:53	Araq	proc len*[T: range](x: T): int {.noSideEffect.} = high(T) - low(T) + 1
20:51:54	apotheon	Is there a small, testing-purposes webserver for Nimrod, akin to stuff like webrick for Ruby?
20:52:13	BitPuffin	apotheon: believe there is actually
20:52:23	apotheon	WEBrick, to capitalize properly.
20:52:25	dom96	apotheon: httpserver module
20:52:29	apotheon	coolio
20:52:52	apotheon	dom96: Is there any reason that wouldn't be suitable to making local-use web applications in Nimrod?
20:52:52	BitPuffin	Araq: well low and high doesn't work either
20:53:14	apotheon	(e.g. leveraging it to use the browser as the GUI for an application that doesn't depend on an Internet connection)
20:54:17	dom96	apotheon: Not at all. I will be improving it though and it's interface may change a bit. But I will deprecate the functions that are already there of course instead of removing them.
20:54:31	Araq	BitPuffin: well they should
20:54:40	Araq	example code?
20:54:49	dom96	apotheon: I would suggest using jester.
20:54:50	EXetoC	I think he means in declarations
20:54:59	apotheon	dom96: good to know
20:55:28	apotheon	Ut-oh. This is what came up in a search for "nimrod httpserver": http://sbtourist.github.io/nimrod/
20:55:42	EXetoC	when passing it to a type parameter or something. I don't know, it's a little vague
20:55:51	apotheon	What does the "browsers" module do?
20:55:52	BitPuffin	Araq: yeah just a sec!
20:56:07	dom96	apotheon: it launches your default browser :P
20:56:10	apotheon	aha
20:57:19	BitPuffin	Araq: https://gist.github.com/BitPuffin/6135229
20:57:38	apotheon	Oh, crap, I need to get going.
20:57:47	apotheon	Take care, folks.
20:57:52	BitPuffin	see you apotheon
21:06:12	BitPuffin	Araq: Adding range as a type restriction did unfortunately not work
21:07:04	Associat0r	http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1jik2m/gamedev_what_language_do_i_use/
21:07:51	Araq	Associat0r: thanks you for nothing
21:08:05	BitPuffin	yeah Associat0r
21:08:44	EXetoC	lol
21:09:28	BitPuffin	And python is mentioned, boo is not really another language
21:09:34	EXetoC	he wants more experienced users to say something
21:09:36	BitPuffin	it's just python for .net
21:09:47	dom96	That's almost like linking to the Programming language list on Wikipedia.
21:11:21	EXetoC	does it present a weighted sum of both objective and subjective strengths yet? :>
21:12:54	dom96	gah, I really despise buffering.
21:14:15	Associat0r	Boo is't just Python.NET
21:14:16	BitPuffin	Araq: no ideas?
21:14:24	Associat0r	IronPython is that
21:14:49	Araq	Associat0r: what about editing your post and adding Nimrod to this list?
21:14:58	Associat0r	Araq: it has been there all along
21:15:11	Associat0r	right after Rust
21:15:20	Araq	wtf
21:15:21	BitPuffin	actually maybe that's just what it once was
21:15:22	EXetoC	haha
21:15:35	*	BitPuffin switched from Rust to Nimrod
21:15:36	Araq	must be some browser refreshing thing?
21:15:47	Associat0r	I can put it in front if you want
21:15:53	Araq	I swear it wasn't there the first time
21:16:06	Associat0r	yes it wasn't there first time but it was when I posted it in the channel
21:16:25	Araq	I see
21:16:29	Araq	well thank you then :-)
21:16:40	BitPuffin	isn't andralex one of the main developers of D, talk about biased :D
21:17:09	Araq	BitPuffin: I'm looking at your problem right *now*
21:17:15	BitPuffin	Araq: sweet
21:17:33	Associat0r	IMO people shouldn't be posting stuff about gamedev langs when only mentioning the status quo
21:17:40	Associat0r	in this day and age
21:20:57	Associat0r	"Everything from ancient legacy languages like COBOL and FORTRAN to modern languages like Python can target the CLR."
21:21:30	Araq	quite true but also quite meaningless
21:21:40	Associat0r	and not a mention of F#
21:22:01	Araq	Python has so many extensions in C that Python for .NET is irrelevant
21:22:23	Araq	Fortran on .NET also seems futile
21:22:36	Araq	not sure about Cobol
21:22:58	BitPuffin	cobol for .NET?
21:23:05	Associat0r	IronPython used to have a perf advantage, but probably not anymore
21:23:33	Araq	it still has over CPython
21:23:41	BitPuffin	pypy
21:23:42	Araq	dunno about PyPy
21:24:03	Araq	PyPy still uses way too much RAM afaict
21:24:37	BitPuffin	well
21:24:51	BitPuffin	unless you are running on something other than a desktop or maybe even a laptop
21:24:56	BitPuffin	RAM isn't much of a problem
21:26:26	BitPuffin	I wonder if there will be an llvm based (or something) compiler for nimrod one day
21:26:50	comex	you tried it once, right? :)
21:26:52	BitPuffin	I still don't ever want to lose the compile to C and JS stuff though
21:27:09	BitPuffin	because C allows nimrod to run on consoles and phones
21:27:22	BitPuffin	and JS lets you run nimrod in the browser :)
21:27:36	comex	regarding that list, serious gamedev doesn't do garbage collected for a reason.
21:27:39	reactormonk	apotheon, it's messy.
21:27:57	comex	(JIT in general is iffy when latency is so important)
21:28:30	EXetoC	it can be disabled whenever, unless the language sucks
21:28:58	comex	well, that's a dubious article in general
21:29:16	comex	it barely mentions performance
21:29:46	BitPuffin	EXetoC: problem with D is that most language features become un-usable when disabling GC
21:30:38	Associat0r	comex: you can do serious gamedev with GC especially when you use staging
21:31:40	Araq	comex: the same serious game developers who are foolish enough to use C++ instead of C? :P
21:32:02	comex	Araq: yep
21:32:26	comex	Associat0r: maybe, i have yet to see it
21:32:30	comex	this is why I like rust
21:32:39	BitPuffin	everyone pretty much uses C++ :/
21:32:41	comex	unfortunately, from what I've heard, rust is not actually all that fast in practice yet
21:33:00	Araq	comex: that's hardly a reason not to hype it here
21:33:35	comex	Araq: huh?
21:33:37	Associat0r	comex: Naughty Dog used Scheme for serious games in the PS1 and PS2 era
21:33:48	comex	Associat0r: sure, for *scripting*, people use lua for that a lot
21:33:58	Associat0r	comex: it wasn't for just scripting
21:34:00	comex	they used Scheme in the PS3 era, too
21:34:02	Associat0r	comex: check out GOAL
21:34:08	EXetoC	Scheme for PS back in the days? interesting
21:34:17	Araq	many games mostly consist of scripting ...
21:34:37	BitPuffin	actually the engine was written in Scheme
21:34:44	comex	Associat0r: oh, cool
21:34:46	BitPuffin	Their own version that could step down to asm
21:34:48	BitPuffin	actually
21:34:50	Araq	the engine is bought and expensive and not to be touched :P
21:34:52	BitPuffin	wasn't it lisp?
21:35:17	Associat0r	hmm I see PS2
21:35:31	comex	but the article suggests it's not exactly a dynamic garbage collected language anymore
21:36:39	Associat0r	well it's like a DSL
21:37:05	Araq	in my tests my GC had a latency of 1ms ...
21:37:06	EXetoC	BitPuffin: such as slices? I can't remember what else, but there are library types for that. still pretty lame though
21:37:11	comex	here is what i was referring to: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6195/the_secrets_of_enemy_ai_in_.php?page=1
21:37:22	BitPuffin	EXetoC: think slices was one of em yeah
21:37:28	BitPuffin	EXetoC: maybe ranges or something too
21:37:29	Araq	you have 16ms per frame if you target 60fps
21:37:57	comex	Araq: presumably that depends on how muchs tuff you have on the heap...
21:38:04	Araq	no
21:38:05	comex	dunno, maybe it's possible these days
21:38:06	comex	however
21:38:18	Araq	it only traces the stack
21:38:19	comex	we also have slow mobile processors :)
21:38:27	Araq	so it's O(stack depth)
21:38:35	comex	generational collector?
21:38:42	BitPuffin	and lots of games run on android that are written in java
21:38:46	comex	still have to deal with old objects
21:38:47	BitPuffin	which is garbage collected
21:38:48	Araq	deferred reference counting
21:38:50	BitPuffin	just fine
21:39:05	EXetoC	aren't the developers struggling though? that's what I've heard
21:39:23	Araq	comex: no, but there can be problems with cycles :P
21:39:33	comex	EXetoC: they are. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2484079/how-can-i-avoid-garbage-collection-delays-in-java-games-best-practices
21:39:38	comex	Araq: well, that's not garbage collection :P
21:39:45	Araq	bullshit
21:39:50	comex	which is not to say it's bad
21:39:59	Araq	it's GC according to any meaningful definition of the term
21:40:04	Associat0r	comex: done in C# http://flyingdevstudio.blogspot.nl/p/games.html
21:40:19	comex	Associat0r: i said serious ;)
21:40:24	comex	and minecraft is done in java too
21:40:33	Araq	but sure maybe I shouldn't call it GC
21:40:47	Associat0r	comex: in C# on mobile devices, and a serious game, it's a flightsim
21:40:48	comex	i suppose minecraft is serious, but i mean technically rather than game design
21:40:54	Araq	people are so full of bullshit with their half knowledge it never stops to amaze me
21:41:08	comex	Araq: you talking about me? :)
21:41:10	dom96	Isn't Kerbal Space Program written in C# too?
21:41:15	Associat0r	yeah
21:41:19	Araq	comex: not really ;-)
21:41:19	Associat0r	no
21:41:23	Associat0r	it uses Unity
21:41:28	BitPuffin	Araq: calm down :)
21:41:28	Associat0r	so it's only C# for scripting
21:41:48	Araq	comex: you however are full of typical reddit opinions if I may say that
21:41:50	Associat0r	but infinite flight is full C#
21:42:01	Araq	C++ bad, C good, C + Python winning combo
21:42:08	comex	Araq: pfft, most people on Reddit don't think that
21:42:09	BitPuffin	amen to that
21:42:15	Araq	exceptions bad, lets script in Python instead
21:42:23	comex	although i don't usually read r/programming anymore, it's kind of dead
21:42:26	Araq	what do you mean Python uses exceptions everywhere?
21:42:30	comex	I read Hacker News instead
21:42:41	Associat0r	that's worse
21:42:44	Associat0r	Javascript good
21:42:45	BitPuffin	yup
21:42:55	Associat0r	everything else bad
21:42:55	BitPuffin	uh
21:42:56	BitPuffin	no
21:43:01	BitPuffin	JS is pretty crappy
21:43:06	comex	I do like Python but I wish it used exceptions less :)
21:43:18	BitPuffin	it's got good things though
21:43:23	Associat0r	BitPuffin: I mean HN
21:43:28	dom96	JS all the way, lets all just use JS everywhere. Node.js is where it's at, am I right?
21:43:38	BitPuffin	Associat0r: yeah that's what I said yup to
21:44:04	EXetoC	exceptions are unobtrusive in expressive languages
21:44:43	Araq	comex: that doesn't help, Python is crazily dynamic everywhere anyway
21:45:10	Araq	Python: nice syntax, absurd semantics, but hey, nobody notices
21:45:15	comex	I tend to like dynamic, as it simply lets me write less code
21:45:20	EXetoC	and like I said, it's a blessing in many cases where you don't want to do anything other than terminating
21:45:35	comex	and the OO semantics are weird but I have yet to see an OO languages with non-weird semantics
21:45:43	comex	not saying this is a good thing
21:45:48	Araq	comex: and yet when C++ does the same it's pure evil
21:45:57	comex	C++ is /much/ weirder than Python :)
21:46:38	Araq	hard to argue against that :P
21:47:07	comex	but i probably wouldn't want to write a large codebase in Python
21:47:08	EXetoC	C++ is definitely not weird
21:47:13	*	EXetoC runs
21:47:20	comex	however it's excellent for smallish command line scripts
21:47:36	EXetoC	+1
21:47:45	Araq	actually I prefer static typing for scripts
21:48:07	Araq	who has test cases for scripts anyway?
21:48:22	BitPuffin	yeah, I think I might agree actually
21:48:27	comex	i don't have test cases for anything, i'm a crappy programmer :p
21:49:03	Associat0r	comex: I use a typed language and my code is shorter than Python
21:49:11	comex	Associat0r: let me guess, Haskell?
21:49:13	comex	;p
21:49:16	Associat0r	comex: F#
21:49:36	comex	maybe it's less *lines* than Python :)
21:49:36	Associat0r	comex: also not every OO lang has weird semantics
21:50:08	EXetoC	steve yegge wasn't able to convince me I'm afraid :>
21:50:11	Araq	Associat0r: arguably it does, the basics of OO are weird
21:50:28	BitPuffin	I can't figure out how OO got so huge
21:50:33	BitPuffin	it's not all that ground breaking
21:50:54	comex	Associat0r: name one :P
21:50:57	Associat0r	it's not that weird actually as described in Cook's paper
21:50:57	EXetoC	some call it marketing
21:51:50	Associat0r	comex: Scala's OO for example
21:51:52	comex	but I do admire the succinctness that functional languages can achieve
21:52:08	Associat0r	comex: yes it's not perfect but it's not weird as like Python
21:52:34	Araq	Associat0r: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4754#comment-75640
21:52:50	Araq	argue with Andreas Rossberg instead :P
21:53:15	Araq	who likely forgot more about type systems than I will ever know ;-)
21:53:56	Associat0r	I saw that comment before
21:54:05	Associat0r	and yeah he's probably right
21:54:56	Associat0r	Araq: what about structural subtyping?
21:54:56	reactormonk	Araq, what is nominal subtyping exactly?
21:55:22	Associat0r	Cook's paper wasn't specifically about nominal subtyping was it?
21:56:08	Associat0r	also I think OCaml's OO doesn't really count since it's based on row polymorphism
21:56:24	Associat0r	and what about module apscription?
21:56:37	comex	module what?
21:56:51	Associat0r	abscription
21:57:01	Associat0r	like in ML
21:58:20	comex	ascription, apparently
21:59:14	Araq	Associat0r: structural subtyping seems aweful to implement which makes it a bad idea already IMO
21:59:41	Associat0r	correction "signature ascription"
21:59:43	Araq	compilers spend lots of time in the type graphs already
21:59:47	comex	it's fun though, feels dynamic while not being slow
22:00:01	Araq	this holds for both Nimrod and LLVM at least
22:00:15	Araq	in fact LLVM's type system had to be redesigned because of it
22:00:28	Associat0r	I see
22:01:10	Associat0r	Araq: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1dumt1/objects_and_functions_conflict_without_a_cause/c9uansb
22:01:27	*	OrionPK joined #nimrod
22:02:25	Araq	also Cook's paper is indeed not about nominal subtyping but about OO's general idea
22:02:58	Araq	and IMHO the general idea really is bad and oversold
22:03:23	Associat0r	true but it also gets too much flack
22:03:35	comex	I don't understand why you are all criticizing OO and yet when I suggest writing "foo_do_something(x)" rather than "x.do_something()" you think I'm crazy :)
22:03:46	comex	i guess it's essentially orthogonal
22:03:58	Araq	comex: infix notation has nothing to do with OO :P
22:04:02	comex	but very often correlated
22:04:28	Araq	true but we're talking about semantics here anyway
22:05:12	comex	on the other hand, it's not merely syntactic
22:05:27	Associat0r	Araq: I mean if you have to have subtyping because you want to extend in a certain axis, why greenspun around it?
22:05:29	comex	well, usually
22:05:56	comex	you would expect "foo_do_something" to point to a specific function (no overloading), while "x.do_something()" could easily be virtual
22:06:12	comex	although I guess ML modules and generics in general break that promise
22:06:36	comex	actually, screw it, lots of functional programmings use generics that way, ignore me
22:07:18	BitPuffin	drop everything and watch this: http://www.twitch.tv/bethesda listen to god speaking
22:07:19	EXetoC	it has nothing to do with OO in Nimrod so I don't really care. it's just a chain-friendly piece of syntax to me
22:07:37	EXetoC	BitPuffin: ffs, I'm trying to be productive here
22:07:51	BitPuffin	EXetoC: at 00:07?
22:07:53	EXetoC	it's bad enough that these people keep talking about stuff :>
22:07:53	Araq	Associat0r: *shrug* I included inheritance for the exception hierarchy and memory efficiency for what it is worth ... ;-)
22:08:13	Araq	that doesn't mean I have to like the feature :P
22:08:13	EXetoC	BitPuffin: sure
22:08:26	comex	how exactly does inheritance promote memory efficiency? :P
22:08:39	Araq	it doesn't really ;-)
22:08:55	comex	and exceptions suck, therefore you have no good reason for inheritance ;)
22:09:24	EXetoC	BitPuffin: ooh Carmack. I forgot about the buyout. this might help me get into the zone actually
22:09:46	*	comex is mostly joking
22:09:59	dom96	BitPuffin: What is Carmack doing in a bethesda stream?
22:10:08	BitPuffin	dom96: bethestda owns id
22:10:14	dom96	oh
22:10:20	Araq	Associat0r: Odersky's comment is not convincing btw
22:10:31	Araq	"Type classes are wonderful, but ultimately not scalable enough because they create a global namespace of instance definitions. In a million line system you cannot guard against the situation that two parties will unknowingly create conflicting instances for the same type class."
22:10:35	Associat0r	many people in the F# community are very hostile toward OO but their code ends up being a blob of free functions without some obvious extensibility boundaries, I mean F# has no ML style modules and OO is the only way to gain some of the large scale modularity back
22:11:11	Araq	nothing scales for a million line system anyway
22:11:29	Araq	and if you need millions of line in the first place, you do it wrong
22:12:00	Associat0r	Araq: true but the global instance thing is still an issue even in small codebases
22:12:14	dom96	BitPuffin: btw gaben is the one and true God.
22:12:17	Associat0r	the standard lib suffers from it in some ways
22:12:22	BitPuffin	dom96: hell no
22:12:28	BitPuffin	love gabe
22:12:29	BitPuffin	but no
22:12:34	dom96	BitPuffin: blasphemy
22:12:37	comex	type classes and implicit supertype casting are two sides of the same coin
22:12:53	BitPuffin	dom96: JC created gabe
22:12:54	comex	both of them let you use one object in many roles without doing anything explicit to convert it
22:12:57	BitPuffin	so he's really god
22:13:08	Associat0r	also if you need subtyping you have to greenspun around
22:13:12	Associat0r	http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Existential_type#Dynamic_dispatch_mechanism_of_OOP
22:13:43	Associat0r	http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/shapes/
22:14:03	comex	which is probably fundamentally the wrong thing; although of course the problems manifest quite differently
22:15:33	EXetoC	BitPuffin: I think Carmack might be a better game programmer than me even
22:15:44	BitPuffin	EXetoC: possibly :P
22:17:07	Associat0r	there are many game programmers I rate higher
22:18:30	BitPuffin	I look up to him as a graphics programmer
22:18:30	EXetoC	notch?
22:18:34	OrionPK	lol
22:18:42	OrionPK	that should warrant a hardy guffaw
22:18:50	Associat0r	Geoff Crammond, David Braben, David Kaemmer
22:19:01	dom96	BitPuffin: I consider gaben a God because I am actually looking forward to HL3, I don't have any games to look forward to from JC.
22:19:23	BitPuffin	dom96: Well, that's not really what makes him god
22:19:24	OrionPK	thats a matter of game design and marketing
22:19:25	OrionPK	:P
22:19:26	comex	well, to some degree. I mean that being able to convert List<Sub> to List<Super> feels fundamentally like a good idea when a sub "is" a super, but if super is merely a member of sub, it doesn't
22:19:35	BitPuffin	dom96: and gabe isn't the one maknig HL3
22:19:41	BitPuffin	mostly
22:19:55	EXetoC	he does it all
22:19:56	comex	then again, being able to convert it in O(1) time to an immutable List<Super> can be useful, occasionally
22:20:09	BitPuffin	lol
22:20:18	BitPuffin	He's the only valve employee :D
22:20:18	Araq	Associat0r: you're right in that advanced functional/type system features pretty much allow OO and thus need to be considered misfeatures ;-)
22:21:03	dom96	BitPuffin: Yeah, but thanks to him we had the pleasure of playing HL
22:21:11	Araq	Associat0r: but on the other hand Robert Harper disagrees with us so we must be wrong
22:21:13	BitPuffin	dom96: for sure
22:21:15	dom96	And will have the pleasure of playing HL3
22:21:24	BitPuffin	dom96: except it will never come out
22:21:27	Associat0r	but a lot systems programming relies on subtyping
22:21:41	comex	Associat0r: huh?
22:21:44	dom96	BitPuffin: it must!
22:21:44	comex	like what?
22:21:59	BitPuffin	dom96: man I hope so :( daddy needs his milk
22:22:04	BitPuffin	(lol)
22:22:13	dom96	lolwhat
22:22:33	Associat0r	comex: like things that can have many different implementations
22:23:13	Associat0r	hardware abstraction layers for one
22:23:38	comex	well. any sane language needs to make it possible to implement virtual methods. but it doesn't need to be a language feature really
22:24:03	Araq	comex: C's aliasing rules permit the first member of a struct to alias the whole struct
22:24:15	Araq	that really is a subtyping feature
22:24:15	comex	Araq: what about that?
22:24:22	Associat0r	comex: I wasn't talking about lang feature in general
22:24:28	Associat0r	I'm just saying the concept
22:24:33	Araq	even C can't do without subtyping
22:24:34	comex	araq: it's a very minor one :)
22:24:41	comex	it's not usually necessary
22:24:49	Associat0r	so why not make it a lang feature?
22:24:53	Associat0r	if it's so common
22:24:55	Araq	it is for python's implementation and for GTK
22:24:59	comex	Associat0r: because it's _not_ that common
22:25:10	Araq	comex: it IS common
22:25:36	comex	common as in a large project will have a bunch of virtual method tables, sure. common as in how OO languages do it is at least an order of magnitude more common :)
22:25:56	Araq	I agree
22:26:01	Associat0r	also Harper isn't a systems programmer, he's a language guy and if all you do is compilers then you might miss out on why OO might be usefull
22:26:09	comex	harper is insane
22:26:18	Araq	I wasn't talking about virtual methods though
22:26:24	comex	he's the "dynamic languages have one type" guy, i believe
22:26:33	Araq	yeah
22:26:42	Araq	and that's correct
22:27:05	Associat0r	GUIs and simulations you would do with OO too conceptually at least
22:27:49	comex	(while this is an interesting observation, he takes it too literally: he claims that this means functional languages can do anything that dynamic languages can do [never mind that you'd have to rewrite everything to be dynamic] and generally overlooks the ways that dynamic types can form a type system that is more flexible, albeit less reliable, than a static one)
22:27:51	Associat0r	I value Shapiro and Kay's view about this matter more than Harper's
22:28:13	Associat0r	also http://matt.might.net/articles/best-programming-languages/
22:28:41	Associat0r	"At the time, I saw functional programming as strictly superior to object-oriented programming, so I didn't see a need for a language that fused functional and object-oriented programming. (That was probably because all I wrote back then were compilers, interpreters and static analyzers.) "
22:29:13	Associat0r	even Paul Hudak admitted that there were some good uses for OOP
22:29:22	comex	my experience is that it's a matter of reading his latest post to find something stupid
22:29:31	comex	quote:
22:29:32	comex	“Declarative” means “what, not how”. But every language has an operational semantics that defines how to execute its programs, and you must be aware of that semantics to understand programs written in it. Haskell has a definite evaluation order, just as much as ML has a different one, and even Prolog execution is defined by a clear operational semantics that determines the clause order and that can be influenced by “cut”
22:29:58	comex	</rant>
22:30:46	comex	does anyone does not see why this is nonsensical?)
22:30:47	Araq	Associat0r: Kay is pretty much a fraud
22:31:06	Associat0r	I'm not so sure about that
22:31:11	Araq	thank you for nothing, kay, smalltalk is a poor man's Lisp
22:31:42	Associat0r	Kay isn't really that fond of Smalltalk
22:31:54	Associat0r	the media makes it seem that way
22:32:06	Araq	Kay is full of himself and I don't know why
22:32:07	Associat0r	because all they know about Kay is OOP and Smalltalk
22:33:07	Araq	comex: I don't get it. The quote is accurate.
22:33:50	Araq	my personal definition of "declarative" is "execution order is different from how it's written down" btw ;-)
22:34:29	Araq	so C's for loop is quite declarative as the last statement is executed after the loop body
22:34:42	comex	o.0
22:34:56	Araq	Go's "defer" is declarative for the same reasons :P
22:35:11	Araq	yeah I know it's a strange definition
22:35:18	Associat0r	Andreas Rossberg had some bad things to say about Go's defer thing
22:35:19	comex	i interpret 'declarative' as 'what, not now', not trivially as in the order is different from the source order, but as in it is the language (or library)'s job to figure out how best to execute an abstract series of operations
22:35:24	comex	*not how
22:35:44	comex	for example, SQL is considerably declarative in this sense
22:35:54	Associat0r	http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4735#comment-75201
22:35:59	Araq	yeah but SQL is the boring example everybody agrees on
22:36:25	comex	sure, but Harper in that quote is basically saying there is no merit to that distinction because all languages have semantics
22:36:39	comex	which is nonsensical
22:36:50	Araq	perhaps but it's Harper
22:37:05	Araq	he's always right and you merely don't understand him :P
22:37:40	comex	fyi, i think the defer thing is an interesting issue, but not related to what i would call "declarative"
22:38:01	Araq	it's almost declarative
22:38:18	Araq	open(f); defer close(f); // wrap in a macro and it's declarative
22:38:24	comex	defer/RAII/whatever genuinely can produce cleaner code that doesn't require you to account as many error cases, but it can also be confusing if the cleanup has an unexpected effect
22:38:33	comex	*account for
22:39:14	comex	imo, therefore, it's best left for relatively simple deallocation semantics
22:41:54	comex	(just don't get me started on kernels with complicated reference counting semantics for different kinds of values)
22:44:40	Araq	comex: there is no such thing as a "dynamic type system", types are static, if they are "dynamic" they are *tags* :P
22:45:18	Araq	[never mind that you'd have to rewrite everything to be dynamic] <-- also wrong. You can use some trival projections
22:45:41	comex	Araq: okay, the rest of the world calls them types though :P
22:46:03	Associat0r	the rest of the world is wrong
22:46:49	comex	you can definitely try to make a language that makes it easy to switch between dynamic and static typing - Dart does this, but for stupid reasons, and only with a simple OO type system
22:47:24	Araq	no need to try, it's very easy anyway
22:47:53	Araq	new Integer(f(obj.getIntValue());
22:48:06	Araq	tedious perhaps
22:48:11	Araq	but not hard at all
22:48:47	comex	yeah, tedious sort of negates the advantage of dynamic types :P
22:48:49	Associat0r	Dart's type system is idiotic
22:50:09	Associat0r	comex: some interesting videos here http://events.inf.ed.ac.uk/Milner2012/videos.html
22:50:29	comex	i don't like watching videos very much
22:51:11	Associat0r	comex: the PLT heavyweigts are talking there
22:52:09	EXetoC	Rasmus Lerdorf?
22:52:44	comex	oh I guess there are slides though
22:53:10	Associat0r	Odersky's talk is good
22:53:18	Araq	nice conversations, but I have to sleep now
22:53:19	Associat0r	and the FP panel
22:53:24	Araq	so good night
22:53:38	comex	night
22:54:09	Associat0r	the concurrency panel I still have to see, Xavier Leroy's talk was theorem prover heavy
22:54:20	Associat0r	also Pierce's talk was nice
23:36:32	Associat0r	carmack talking about haskell and stuff http://www.twitch.tv/bethesda
23:37:31	BitPuffin	related to what carmack said
23:37:45	BitPuffin	how do we mark a proc as brutally pure in nimrod?
23:37:53	BitPuffin	{.noSideEffects.}?
23:37:58	dom96	yes
23:39:04	dom96	I've been listening to him talk this whole time... now i'm inspired to do some game dev in Nimrod.
23:39:05	BitPuffin	would be better to have to do {.sideEffects.} hehe
23:39:12	BitPuffin	dom96: same here
23:40:06	dom96	Did he just say that Garbage Collection is a "huge programming win"? :P
23:40:13	BitPuffin	dom96: he sure did :D
23:40:21	dom96	:D
23:40:43	BitPuffin	and I agree
23:45:55	Associat0r	I would take what he says with a grain of salt, last time he was praising Java because it was supposedly safe
23:46:05	EXetoC	:o
23:46:23	Associat0r	o and he liked Go
23:48:19	BitPuffin	Associat0r: well it is pretty safe
23:48:37	BitPuffin	unless you mean exploit wise
23:50:47	BitPuffin	I could probably say that I like Go too without even touching it. But I wouldn't say I love it because it's amazing and solves everything, and I doubt he does too
23:51:07	BitPuffin	highly disagree with his opinion on linux games though
23:51:13	BitPuffin	that it would be better to focus on wine
23:52:14	comex	now that Mac is becoming a bigger target, it seems reasonable to try to get developers to use the same OpenGL code on Linux (and improve drivers to avoid different code paths being necessary)
23:52:46	Associat0r	also Haskell and GC isn't the be all end all, with stuff like Idris around and Rust's linear types
23:53:33	dom96	The problem on Linux now is IMO the graphics drivers and Xorg.
23:54:01	BitPuffin	dom96: xorg is on its way out
23:54:14	dom96	It's not happening fast enough though.
23:54:21	BitPuffin	it's finally going fast
23:54:27	BitPuffin	wayland has a stable api and all
23:54:39	Associat0r	BitPuffin: Go has many problems
23:54:40	dom96	So when can I replace Xorg then?
23:54:40	BitPuffin	and ubuntu will ship with Mir in october
23:54:44	BitPuffin	Associat0r: sure
23:55:41	BitPuffin	dom96: I'd say by the end of this year ish, you'll have lower performance for a while but eventually it will get better
23:56:54	dom96	As long as I am no longer forced to use some crazy VLC settings to watch videos then I'll be happy.
23:58:29	BitPuffin	dom96: hehe yeah.
23:58:40	dom96	And as long as Wayland doesn't use 70% of the CPU when watching videos.