<< 02-03-2017 >>

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00:07:40	enthus1ast	sounds like a fun project piotrklibert
00:09:49	dom96	nice! awesome project :)
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00:19:07	zachcarter	btw all - 7drl starts this weekend in case anyone is interested
00:19:28	zachcarter	I just finished creating bindings to http://foo.wyrd.name/en:bearlibterminal for Nim if anyone wants them
00:20:09	zachcarter	I should probably make a thread on the Nim forum - I’ll do that now
00:22:24	enthus1ast	too much cool things to try : )
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02:09:59	subsetpark	zachcarter: I've been working on a Roguelike in Nim!
02:10:08	zachcarter	oh awesome!
02:10:30	zachcarter	have anything to share?
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02:10:50	zachcarter	also: are you using any libraries or writing everything yourself?
02:11:07	zachcarter	subsetpark: I’m currently working on a 2d game framework similar to libgdx for Nim
02:11:24	subsetpark	Honestly, I've just been using ncurses...
02:11:47	zachcarter	maybe a switch to bearlibterminal is in your future :) or my library when it’s a bit further along
02:11:51	subsetpark	It's pretty clunky but I don't know what the state of the art is. This is my first game
02:12:02	zachcarter	very cool :D
02:12:08	zachcarter	you should do 7drl!
02:12:43	zachcarter	I’m just going to work hard on my game library for 7 days :P
02:13:12	subsetpark	bearlibterminal looks rather heavy - it provides roguelike output inside of its own graphic buffer, right?
02:13:46	zachcarter	it uses immmediate mode OpenGL for rendering to my knowledge
02:14:03	zachcarter	I dug into the source code a bit at one point
02:14:27	zachcarter	it’s essentially a terminal emulator
02:14:43	zachcarter	which a lot of roguelikes end up using since ncurses is… well ncurses.
02:14:57	zachcarter	it’s also truecolor to my knowledge
02:15:11	subsetpark	Yes, I think that would feel like a betrayal to me... :) My roguelike origins are firmly in ASCII
02:15:21	zachcarter	oh you can still do ASCII with it
02:15:33	zachcarter	it’s meant for ASCII
02:15:40	zachcarter	it has a interface similar to ncurses
02:15:54	subsetpark	ah ok
02:16:22	zachcarter	https://gist.github.com/zacharycarter/61037bd748633c70d218e2f5e6001c53
02:16:40	subsetpark	very neat
02:16:59	zachcarter	here’s a screenshot of one of the demos I ported to nim - http://i.imgur.com/apNqlbu.png
02:19:18	zachcarter	subsetpark: my friend notostraca and I, who maintains squidlib, have been talking about writing something for doing region encoding using bitsets
02:19:31	zachcarter	region encoding of on/off information
02:19:43	zachcarter	in Nim, probably using simd if we can
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02:22:45	zachcarter	I used his havily for my map generator in java :
02:22:56	zachcarter	https://github.com/zacharycarter/mapgen
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03:02:13	subsetpark	Yeah definitely seems like I might as well give it a shot...
03:07:50	zachcarter	if you have any questions I can help you
03:09:10	zachcarter	subsetpark ^
03:09:31	subsetpark	Awesome thanks :)
03:10:05	zachcarter	np!
03:10:11	zachcarter	I love procgen / roguelikes
03:10:45	zachcarter	I plan on doing a lot of procgen in my game
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04:33:00	jabb	http://ideone.com/H6TPVa regarding this. why must i unref the string?
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04:57:33	zachcarter	almost done with version 1.0 of the public API for these nuklear bindings
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05:54:51	libman	Excellent zachcarter. Looking forward to finding the time to try them.
05:55:02	zachcarter	https://gist.github.com/zacharycarter/f426e503d15f967e480fb33230273639
05:55:16	zachcarter	everything is wrapped with a nimian proc now
05:55:25	zachcarter	I still have to fix return types to not be int32 and bools instead
05:55:53	zachcarter	libman: I’ve been using them in my own project, they’ve been working well
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05:58:14	zachcarter	hopefully someone can help with portng over some more examples from nuklear
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07:03:18	zachcarter	or whoever wrote tables :P
07:08:58	zachcarter	whoops wrong chat haha
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11:16:41	PMunch	I'm trying to work with xlib and when getting the value from the WM_CLASS atom I get "two consecutive null terminated strings"
11:16:48	PMunch	I also get the length of the total data
11:17:06	PMunch	Obviously when I cast this to a Nim string I get the first of the two strings
11:17:26	PMunch	And it's length is obviously lower than the total length of the data
11:17:42	PMunch	But I'm struggling to get the second string
11:17:48	PMunch	s2 = $(cast[cstring](classPtr+(s1.len)))
11:18:04	PMunch	Tried that but to no avail, I get a Illegal storage access error when I try to run it
11:18:20	PMunch	Same if I just try to get the second character by doing cast[char](cast[ptr cuchar](classPtr+1)[])
11:18:55	PMunch	Getting the first character with cast[char](classPtr[]) works fine
11:21:21	Araq	hmm seems ugly, but correct
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11:24:49	PMunch	Hmm, now I'm trying to copy it into an array
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11:27:30	PMunch	http://ix.io/nSB
11:27:35	PMunch	Why doesn't that work?
11:27:56	PMunch	It just prints a bunch of newlines
11:31:05	PMunch	Never mind, it was to,from; not from,to
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11:41:51	PMunch	Hmm, it really doesn't like to access the middle of a memory address
11:41:58	PMunch	copyMem(characters.addr,cast[ptr cuchar](classPtr+s1.len),classLen) also fails
11:44:52	PMunch	http://ix.io/nSF that works, but it is limited to the length you define for your array..
11:49:47	PMunch	http://ix.io/nSG arguably still a hack but that also works and is not as limited
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11:51:37	PMunch	http://ix.io/nSH less of a hack, but still a bit annoying that I just can't get the offset directly
11:55:12	PMunch	Aha! This: http://ix.io/nSL works. So it seems that I just couldn't add to a pointer directly, but casting it to an int, add to it, then cast it back to a ptr works
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12:10:50	Araq	yeah but I assumed you had an overloaded + for this :P
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12:11:10	Araq	how can it crash and not compile at the same time?
12:12:17	PMunch	Ah, no I was just using the regular +. And all the above code compiles
12:12:23	PMunch	Just crashes when I run it
12:12:38	Araq	classPtr+s1.len is not valid Nim code
12:12:45	Araq	what is classPtr's type?
12:12:51	PMunch	ptr cuchar
12:14:06	PMunch	echo classPtr+5
12:14:07	Araq	Error: type mismatch: got (ptr cuchar, int)
12:14:07	Araq	but expected one of:
12:14:07	Araq	proc `+`(x, y: float32): float32
12:14:09	Araq	…
12:14:10	PMunch	That compiles and runs fine
12:14:43	Araq	var classPtr: ptr cuchar
12:14:43	Araq	echo classPtr + 5
12:14:49	Araq	doesn't compile here
12:15:15	PMunch	This is with {.experimental.} and I have a bunch of converters. But none of them from "ptr cuchar"
12:15:28	PMunch	http://ix.io/nSO <- converters
12:15:35	Araq	.experimental does auto deref for you :P
12:15:47	PMunch	Aah
12:16:03	PMunch	Oh yeah, without it I get a compilation error
12:16:15	PMunch	I'm using it for wxWidgets
12:16:39	Araq	I see. too bad I can't see a good solution for this problem
12:17:26	PMunch	The best "fix" would probably be to rewrite the wxWidgets wrapper
12:17:33	PMunch	Or rather to write an abstraction layer
12:17:44	Araq	C++ interop pretty much requires .experimental
12:17:56	Araq	because of the 'this' pointer mess
12:20:17	PMunch	What's the alternative?
12:20:26	PMunch	After all my wxWidgets code is generated from my macro
12:20:39	PMunch	So I could build it into the macro
12:21:21	Araq	perhaps. but this feature of .experimental should become the default too
12:21:57	Araq	so the problem that 'ptr cuint + number' compiles persists
12:25:24	PMunch	Hmm, then it's an issue
12:25:48	PMunch	Maybe define a + for ptr and numbers?
12:26:11	PMunch	Or wait, that would blur the line for what intPtr+5 did
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12:27:24	zachcarter	morning all - I was introducing Nim to a buddy last night and he pointed out some inconsistencies in Nim that I didn’t have answers to
12:29:06	zachcarter	why is there like <literal>.newSomething and <literal>.toSomething, specifically in the tables module when these patterns aren’t present throughout the rest of Nim? usually a ref is created with the new keyword
12:29:56	zachcarter	or addr
12:30:04	krux02	well yea, there are inconsistencies
12:30:12	krux02	I realized it on my own
12:30:30	krux02	but that is something I even introduced in my own code without knowing it
12:31:05	zachcarter	yeah I know it’s easy to do, I think he was more wondering just - why like is there any underlying reason or is it something that has just occurred in the language and is it going to be addressed at any point?
12:31:13	krux02	in C++ I had the convention, to add methods toSomething to a class,
12:31:28	krux02	a newSomething fits in more for a free function
12:31:57	krux02	and without really realizing it, I just applied it to nim
12:32:01	zachcarter	ah okay
12:32:26	krux02	but there I can interchange methods (meaning dot call syntax) and free functions arbitrarily
12:32:33	zachcarter	right
12:32:34	PMunch	Probably (hopefully) going to be addressed at some point
12:32:37	krux02	I changed a few times and wonder what is better
12:32:41	FromGitter	<dom96> No underlying reason, just an inconsistency. It should be renamed to initTable.
12:32:54	PMunch	There have been mentions of renaming stuff in the standard library
12:33:05	FromGitter	<dom96> Well, maybe Araq has a reason
12:33:13	FromGitter	<dom96> But I am not aware of one
12:33:27	zachcarter	okay cool - I’ll let him know thank you for the explanation guys :D
12:33:34	krux02	dom96 not sure if initTable is better, because init is usually used to initialize an object that is already allocated, where new and create also allocate it
12:33:53	zachcarter	I think a table literal would be nice
12:34:32	Araq	{"key": "value"}.toTable() ?
12:34:41	zachcarter	that’s the inconsistency we’re talking about Araq
12:34:50	zachcarter	why the need for toTable?
12:35:05	zachcarter	or newTable
12:35:18	Araq	because there is the problem of ordered vs unordered tables
12:35:31	Araq	if you do it like Python, you copy Python's big mistake
12:35:43	krux02	what does python do?
12:35:46	zachcarter	I hadn’t thought / considered this
12:36:22	Araq	we don't copy other's mistakes, we make completely new mistakes in Nim :-)
12:36:31	zachcarter	:P
12:37:04	Araq	ok, so the question is why 'toTable' and not 'initTable'
12:37:11	krux02	well there is also the way how c++ can do things
12:37:14	zachcarter	here was his question
12:37:19	zachcarter	verabtim in IRC last night
12:37:33	zachcarter	jab: {"haha": "bar"} seems to be syntactic sugar for [("haha": "bar")]
12:37:33	zachcarter	[01:35am] jab: which is just an array
12:37:35	zachcarter	[01:35am] jab: i'm seeing some inconsistencies
12:37:36	zachcarter	[01:35am] jab: <literal>.newSomething
12:37:38	zachcarter	[01:36am] jab: <literal>.toSomething
12:37:39	zachcarter	[01:36am] jab: and then all the new, etc keywords to create references
12:37:40	zachcarter	[01:36am] jab: TableRef/Table
12:37:41	zachcarter	[01:36am] jab: vs SomeObj, Some
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12:38:11	krux02	I personally think the definition of TableRef is completely redundant
12:38:16	zachcarter	this spawned these questions
12:38:17	zachcarter	jab: why not just a real literal for table?
12:38:18	zachcarter	[01:38am] jab: and is newFoobar a common theme
12:38:19	zachcarter	[01:39am] jab: and when should i use the naming pair: Foo/FooObj vs FooRef/Foo
12:38:40	krux02	ref Table is one character more, and it has the advantage that it does not need to be defined
12:38:56	zachcarter	for the last question I pointed him to - https://nim-lang.org/docs/nep1.html
12:38:57	Araq	well you cannot be "consistent" if the problem domain forces you to do the 'ref object' vs 'object' tradeoff
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12:39:14	Araq	the semantics are not "consistent" to begin with.
12:39:28	Araq	so it would be a mistake to conflate these two too much, IMO.
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12:41:00	Araq	so the question is why is toTable not called initTable? because I think of it more as a type conversion than a type construction.
12:41:19	Araq	but I suppose you're right and it's pointlessly inconsistent.
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12:43:21	flyx	well in C++ a constructor is by default an implicit type conversion. not saying that C++ does anything right.
12:43:48	flyx	there seems to be little difference between the two.
12:43:59	Araq	yeah but that's just nuts and you have to type 'explicit' to avoid it
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12:44:24	krux02	flyx only when it has exactly one argument and does not have an ``explicit`` tag
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12:44:34	flyx	I know the details.
12:44:52	krux02	what I do like is the initializer list
12:45:01	flyx	just wanted to point out that conversion vs construction is blurry
12:45:16	Araq	yeah, excellent point.
12:45:17	krux02	and that would map pretty well to openArray in Nim
12:45:17	flyx	because in fact, you always construct a new copy
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12:45:54	zachcarter	good point flyx
12:46:01	krux02	proc table[Key,Value](openArray[tuple[Key,Value]])
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12:46:41	flyx	krux02: well that's almost what toTable() does
12:47:02	flyx	or, rather, exactly
12:47:39	krux02	yes, I just think the to prefix should be avoided at all
12:47:48	krux02	the package is called tables
12:47:52	krux02	the type is called Table
12:48:00	krux02	so table is a nice way to construct it
12:48:07	krux02	it also looks more declarative
12:48:32	Araq	it should also look expensive because it is :P
12:48:48	zachcarter	$table
12:48:54	zachcarter	$$$table
12:49:03	flyx	heh
12:49:11	Araq	that said, I don't think I use toTable anywhere in my code
12:49:26	zachcarter	I don’t either - I think he was just digging for things to poke at in the language
12:49:29	krux02	flx: oh yea, you are right XD
12:49:31	Araq	if I use a table, I don't know its contents
12:49:51	Araq	so why would the "default" constructor be burdened with a rare use case
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12:51:23	zachcarter	the only time I ever desire hash table literals is when I’m defining lookup tables
12:51:57	Araq	if we keep the initTable and newTable (and we should) the overloading makes sense since toTable only works with Table and not with TableRef, right?
12:52:23	Araq	so that would be an argument to change toTable to use the same names
12:53:16	Araq	zachcarter: I use arrays or a case statement when I know things at compiletime, I uses tables when I don't know it at compiletime
12:53:36	Araq	but then I very rarely have some "partial knowledge" of my key, value pairs
12:53:50	Araq	so toTable is mostly useless :-)
12:53:58	zachcarter	like for instance
12:54:12	FromGitter	<dom96> The reason that toTable should be called initTable is because we have two newTable procedures.
12:54:25	FromGitter	<dom96> We don't have a toTableRef
12:55:21	Araq	dom96: agreed.
12:55:57	zachcarter	actually nevermind, I don’t really have any cases at the moment where I’m using tables like that
12:56:04	FromGitter	<dom96> Hrm, I guess I should change ``newTable`` in my Nim reference to ``initTable``
12:56:36	FromGitter	<dom96> @Araq: glad you agree :)
12:56:49	zachcarter	he had another question
12:57:05	zachcarter	http://ideone.com/H6TPVa
12:57:09	krux02	well the tables litteral, even though it is acutally a rare use case in real code, it is very important in the process to learn how tables work
12:57:24	zachcarter	I pointed him to the last bit of - https://nim-lang.org/docs/gc.html
12:57:37	krux02	throw away code that is just written to try out the hevariour of tables is full of toTable([...])
12:57:39	zachcarter	not sure if I was correct in doing so
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12:58:34	zachcarter	jab: i have a ptr type with a member to GC
12:58:34	zachcarter	[11:32pm] jab: i free the ptr, i can see why the reference is untraced so i need to manually remove it BUT, why isn't it freed in the first place?
12:58:51	zachcarter	I was thinking his use of alloc0 ?
13:00:39	krux02	what is with alloc0?
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13:00:59	Araq	ptr type with GC member requires an unpaired GC_unref() call, not sure our docs cover that -.-
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13:01:15	krux02	it can be replaced with ``create``, but that doesn't clear what he is trying to say
13:01:19	Araq	I'm also not sure that is tested
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13:01:31	krux02	zachcarter, what is the problem with that code, and what is it supposed to do?
13:01:51	Araq	in general ptr type to GC'ed memory is *rare* and once I thought the compiler should warn about this combination
13:01:54	zachcarter	# tell the GC that the string is not needed anymore: not sure why????
13:01:54	zachcarter	GCunref(d.s)
13:02:03	zachcarter	wondering why the GCunref is necessary
13:02:19	zachcarter	gotcha thank you Araq
13:02:35	Araq	actually.
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13:02:41	Araq	I think this part of the manual is wrong.
13:02:48	Araq	thanks for pointing it out.
13:03:01	zachcarter	I’ll forward your thanks onto jab
13:03:13	zachcarter	I’ve been trying to get him in here… he’s west coast US so time zones don’t exactly marry up wel
13:03:16	zachcarter	well*
13:03:17	Araq	actually the GC_unref needs to be paired
13:03:21	Araq	with GC_ref
13:03:28	zachcarter	okay
13:03:29	Araq	for this example to work.
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13:04:44	Araq	bbl
13:04:50	krux02	well ten hours difference for me
13:06:58	zachcarter	yeah exactly :
13:07:47	krux02	Araq: Would you accept a pull request, that allows setLen to work on nil strings/seq types as long as the the default of seq/string vars is still nil?
13:08:44	krux02	setLen is rarely called, therefore for performance it hardly makes a difference
13:09:44	krux02	it would just render the proc newSeq(var self; len: int) redundant
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13:19:14	FromGitter	<endragor> `s.setLen(n)` crashing when `s` is `nil` makes more sense to me than silently doing nothing
13:20:06	krux02	endragor: I am not talking about silently doing nothing, I am talking about to create a new seq of that lenth
13:20:53	krux02	http://ix.io/nSV
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13:24:05	FromGitter	<endragor> ah, alright. I wouldn't mind that, unless there were reasons not to do that from the beginning. the `nil` case was thought out given that the doc explicitly mentions you shouldn't use setLen on `nil`.
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13:32:55	krux02	yes but that's inconsisten, because len on nil actually does work
13:34:04	FromGitter	<dom96> What's next? ``add`` on ``nil`` should also allocate a new string/seq for us?
13:34:06	krux02	http://ix.io/nSW
13:35:08	FromGitter	<dom96> I don't think that `len` should work on `nil` in the first place.
13:35:26	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> I think it should :-)
13:36:04	FromGitter	<dom96> Why?
13:36:05	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> and arguably `add` on nil should allocate
13:36:15	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> because people are going to introduce errors
13:36:16	krux02	I think nil on seq shouldn't be a thing in the first place
13:36:22	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> I agree
13:36:26	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> but since it is
13:36:32	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> we'd better treat it without crashing
13:36:52	FromGitter	<dom96> You should have the discipline to initialise your seq/strings instead of relying on these workarounds.
13:37:11	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> ah well, I do
13:37:12	FromGitter	<dom96> Which are just plain confusing a lot of the time.
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13:37:19	flyx	well wasn't the plan to make `not nil` default anyway?
13:37:22	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> but it is a safety for the cases when people don't
13:37:26	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> including me of course
13:37:35	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> safety ne
13:37:37	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> net
13:37:49	krux02	flyx: yes, but it isn't yet
13:37:52	FromGitter	<dom96> It's better to crash and fix the bug than silently "work" and have a bug later in your program.
13:38:08	FromGitter	<dom96> (Which is harder to find)
13:38:09	krux02	and for me "not yet" is a bit too far away in the future
13:38:12	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> that may also be a valid position
13:38:27	flyx	I side with dom96 on this one.
13:38:43	krux02	dom96: well no
13:38:58	FromGitter	<dom96> flyx: yay :)
13:39:19	krux02	dom96: the idea is that setLen is exalcly that, a perfect initialization
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13:40:45	krux02	I have serialization/deserialization code, and whenever I deserialize data into an object, I have to always put the branch in there:
13:41:16	krux02	is s not nil: s.setLen(n) else: s.newSeq(n)
13:42:07	krux02	all the time I write into a seq, I have to put this branch
13:42:21	FromGitter	<dom96> So why don't you refactor that into a function?
13:42:47	krux02	because it should also work with an object that already exists, becaues it is semantically an assignment of serial data to an object
13:42:58	krux02	dom96: I did
13:43:05	krux02	I posted it
13:43:10	krux02	http://ix.io/nSW
13:43:26	krux02	sorry wrong one
13:43:37	krux02	http://ix.io/nSV
13:45:19	krux02	dom96: on the other hand what is the problem with when things just work?
13:46:01	FromGitter	<dom96> The problem is that this introduces a major inconsistency.
13:46:19	FromGitter	<dom96> Either we treat every ``nil`` transparently
13:46:23	FromGitter	<dom96> or we don't treat any
13:46:40	FromGitter	<endragor> ref types with value semantics already introduce a major inconsistency :-P
13:46:59	FromGitter	<dom96> Right now we are moving towards a situation where you have to remember that `len` will give you "0" when your seq is nil
13:47:24	FromGitter	<endragor> so some people are preferring to go towards "value" part of the seq/string semantics
13:47:39	FromGitter	<dom96> @endragor example?
13:47:44	FromGitter	<endragor> example of what?
13:47:49	FromGitter	<endragor> I mean the current discussion
13:48:10	krux02	well I like to treat my seq like an std::vector, empty by default
13:48:47	krux02	and I personally don't see the problem to treat nil as the general empty seq
13:49:27	FromGitter	<dom96> @endragor example of "ref types with value semantics", I guess you're saying that sequences have value semantics?
13:49:28	krux02	an endragor already pointed out, seq is a ref type with value semantics
13:49:51	krux02	and it doesn't make sense to have value semantic where you constantly have to check if something is nil or not
13:50:13	FromGitter	<dom96> What value semantics do seqs have?
13:50:22	krux02	copy on assignment
13:51:31	krux02	http://ix.io/nT0
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13:53:57	krux02	http://ix.io/nT1
13:55:24	krux02	also treading nil just like an empty sequence is how the stb library works
13:56:01	krux02	https://github.com/nothings/stb/blob/master/stretchy_buffer.h
13:57:47	krux02	the entire thing fits in 70 lines of well readable C code
13:59:10	krux02	ok well readable is an exaggeration, but it is very well structured
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14:00:41	krux02	dom96: do you have a use case, where you would want setLen to crash?
14:00:49	krux02	(when it is nil)
14:03:42	Salewski	Short streams module question:
14:03:51	Salewski	import streams
14:03:57	Salewski	var s = newStringStream()
14:04:08	Salewski	s.write("aa bb cc dd"); s.setPosition(3) ;s.write("xx")
14:04:12	Salewski	echo s.data; s.close
14:04:20	Salewski	# output is "aa xx cc dd" # Is it possible to get "aa xx", something like s.setLen() ?
14:04:27	Salewski	done.
14:05:14	flyx	Salewski: well you can do setLen on s.data, but that would invalidate the pos
14:05:34	*	hjsagg joined #nim
14:05:45	Salewski	Yes, that was my fear!
14:06:03	krux02	dom96: took me 5 minutes to find an example in the compiler, wher the setLen that works on nil would simplify the code
14:06:57	flyx	Salewski: write a proc cut(s: StringStream, at: int) = s.setPosition(at); s.data.setLen(at)
14:08:01	Salewski	flyx: OK, thanks. I was not sure if that would work, but I will try it.
14:08:20	flyx	Salewski: I am also not sure that it will work ;)
14:08:29	FromGitter	<dom96> krux2: I don't have a use case, I just don't want to end up confused just like I have been a couple of times because of 'len's new behaviour.
14:08:47	FromGitter	<dom96> If anything maybe we should initialise all sequences/strings when they are defined?
14:09:38	FromGitter	<dom96> To be honest, I have more of an issue with len's behaviour because I use it for debugging a lot.
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14:10:44	krux02	dom96: I wrote some gdb scripts that embed in Nim that tell you all you need to know about a seq when you print it
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14:13:43	krux02	it just has some problems, because I can not write a regular expression to detect sequence types
14:17:25	FromGitter	<dom96> I still primarily use ``echo`` for debugging
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14:31:25	krux02	dom96: do you do it, because debugging with gdb just doesn't work well enough?
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14:33:13	Araq	krux02: it never does for me and that's not because debuggers don't work.
14:33:20	Araq	er, I mean
14:33:30	Araq	and that's because debuggers don't work.
14:33:59	Araq	my programs fail at the Nth iteration, not at the first iteration.
14:34:31	Araq	so this means I need conditional breakpoints. these are slow and you have to type them without intellisense
14:35:33	Araq	it's code you type that is essentially free of tooling. no intellisense, no version control
14:36:23	Araq	so I insert 'if's into my code, not only 'echos'
14:36:39	Araq	and avoid debuggers.
14:38:01	Araq	it's very nice when you can attach a debugger later, to program that is about to crash / crashed :-)
14:38:27	cheatfate	Araq, you can but on windows only
14:38:35	cheatfate	just in time debugger
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14:39:57	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> you can in smalltalk as well :-)
14:40:22	Araq	or debuggers that support "go back in time", that's useful too.
14:40:57	Araq	but usually not available.
14:41:17	Araq	tried "undo GDB" once, never got it to work
14:41:45	Araq	(no "go back in time" doesn't mean to go back one assembler instruction...)
14:49:53	krux02	cheatfate: you can attach gdb to running programs as well
14:50:20	krux02	Araq: I use debuggers for much simpler things
14:50:40	krux02	I use them to understand how code executes
14:50:55	krux02	I want to visualize how the code executes and where it executes
14:51:02	krux02	I want to see how it changes variables
14:51:09	krux02	just to understand how code that I did not write works
14:51:51	krux02	but that's just a horrible experience with command line debuggers like gdb
14:53:39	krux02	and in visual debuggers it is hard in Nim, because most of them don't understand Nim at all
14:54:34	krux02	Araq: what's do you think is the safest way to detect, if a type in GDB is a sequence type
14:55:01	krux02	currently all I have is a regular experssion on the name "^TY_.*$"
14:55:20	krux02	but that doesn't really work
14:56:39	krux02	easiest for me would it be, when seq types had a tag in them, like "TY_seq_<hash>", then I could just add that to the regular expression
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14:57:40	cheatfate	krux02, but gdb can expand appropriate C type, so you can use this to get if this sequence or not?
14:58:48	Araq	krux02: patch the codegen then?
14:59:05	Araq	most codegen patches improve Nim's debugging support these days :-)
14:59:30	cheatfate	Araq, bad joke :)
14:59:47	cheatfate	name mangling don't improve debugging :)
15:00:20	Araq	name mangling is required for correctness, C doesn't support overloading or namespaces
15:00:22	krux02	Araq: so you would be open to change the generated Name?
15:00:29	Araq	krux02: yeah
15:00:48	krux02	ok, I get it.
15:01:22	cheatfate	Araq, and what happens if i declare type like mysuperseq[T] = seq[T]
15:01:26	krux02	I won't send any pull request unless I actually have gdb support that actually also uses it
15:02:11	krux02	weatfate: unless it is ``distinct`` it should not do anything different than seq[T] would generate
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15:02:39	krux02	cheatfate: sorry for spelling your name incorrectly
15:03:15	cheatfate	so if distinct is specified, then this way with regexp of "TY_seq_<hash>" is broken?
15:03:39	Araq	no, it's not broken. the codegen removes 'distinct'
15:05:12	cheatfate	anyway i think its better to make dependency on generated C type.
15:05:18	cheatfate	not on name of type
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15:07:22	Araq	for enums and sets we need additional debugging info, the compiler has some (disabled) code for that
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15:12:33	cheatfate	Araq, and now you need to generate better `syms` file :)
15:13:00	cheatfate	to include support for enums and sets :)
15:13:21	cheatfate	i told you `line format` is not a good way to doing it :)
15:14:59	Araq	you also told me to use a binary file format that nobody can parse without an API.
15:15:06	Araq	:P
15:15:24	federico3	is there the "dual" of varargs? foo(i[0], i[1], i[2].....)
15:16:19	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> I am working on a slightly old program which used asynchttpclient
15:16:39	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> it seems that a certain point, `response.body` changed from synchronous to asynchronous
15:16:52	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> does anyone know when did this happen?
15:16:55	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> more or less
15:17:02	Araq	was a recent commit
15:17:12	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> after 0.16.2?
15:17:17	Araq	most recent commit to asynchttpclient
15:17:24	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> ok thank you
15:17:26	Araq	there is no 0.16.2
15:17:28	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> I will have a look
15:17:30	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> uh
15:17:42	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> you're right
15:17:51	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> I was sure we were on 0.16.3
15:17:55	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> go figure
15:18:04	Araq	yeah it's a tough problem, this change means we need to either revert it
15:18:10	Araq	or call it 0.17.0
15:18:25	subsetpark	.17 makes the language sound more mature :)
15:18:55	Araq	subsetpark: we follow the tick-tock model of development though
15:19:03	subsetpark	oh yeah true
15:19:04	Araq	at least that's what I'm trying to do.
15:19:10	subsetpark	ok, 0.18.0 it is, agreedb
15:19:14	Araq	no lol
15:19:32	Araq	release with breaking changes, patch release
15:19:39	subsetpark	i'll submit to hacker news "Nim 0.18.0 released" and link to the GH repo
15:19:44	Araq	and then again release with breaking changes, patch release
15:20:51	Araq	there is however another bugfix that means old code stopped working.
15:21:13	Araq	the compiler got stricter with its effect system in combination with methods.
15:23:45	PMunch	I remember there was a way to jump out of nested for loops in Nim, but I've forgotten how I did it. Anyone?
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15:27:10	Araq	block foo: ... break foo
15:27:19	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> one more thing
15:27:32	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> I see there are a few shared data structures
15:27:36	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> sharedtable
15:27:40	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> and others
15:28:00	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> how do they work? do they allocate on the shared heap? are they threadsafe?
15:28:13	Araq	yes and yes
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15:28:39	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> great!
15:28:50	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> why didn't I know?
15:28:57	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> they seem not to be mentioned anywhere
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15:36:10	cheatfate	andreaferretti: we have only sharedtable... which is really slow
15:37:36	krux02	locking shared data is slow
15:37:53	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> and sharedqueue I think?
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15:38:53	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> and sharedlist and sharedstring
15:39:14	cheatfate	we dont have sharedqueue
15:39:33	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> I see... but I think it used to be there
15:39:40	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> I saw it a few days ago
15:39:51	cheatfate	sharedlist and sharedstring of course uses same one lock algorithm
15:40:01	cheatfate	the only fast thing we have is lockfreehash
15:40:32	cheatfate	but i never tested it
15:40:35	krux02	There should be a substitute for the Go channel
15:40:56	krux02	and that should be the shared queue
15:41:06	Araq	agreed but I cannot do everything
15:41:22	Araq	it also needs to support async events
15:41:22	krux02	ok, understood
15:41:58	Araq	though I'm a fan of dataflow variables
15:42:23	krux02	what is a dataflow variable
15:48:20	Araq	a simple datastructure, you can write to it once and read from it as often as you like
15:48:36	Araq	reading blocks until the value is available
15:48:57	cheatfate	Araq, and this variable not uses lock?
15:49:02	Araq	no dataraces possible, deadlocks are deterministic
15:49:25	Araq	cheatfate: it does use a lock and condition variable under the hood
15:49:47	Araq	its value lies in its simplicity and safety.
15:50:04	cheatfate	so dataflow variable in array is pretty expensive?
15:51:25	Araq	yes. but you can use an array of "dataflow arrays"
15:51:53	Araq	the wrapped value doesn't have to be an atom, it can be an array
15:51:58	cheatfate	then this becomes `lock striping`
15:52:01	Araq	yes
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16:00:38	krux02	I know that datastructure from Scala where it is called Future
16:00:57	krux02	but it's everywhere
16:01:11	krux02	I just didn't the the name dataflow variable
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16:02:15	Araq	Futures are more powerful and less safe
16:02:41	Araq	usually you can wait for Future 1 or 2 and then you introduce nondeterminism
16:02:42	krux02	let file : Future[MyType] = future(parseFile("filename"))
16:03:04	krux02	how?
16:03:15	Araq	await foo or bar
16:04:03	krux02	and? then?
16:04:31	Araq	then you introduced non deterministic behaviour.
16:04:50	krux02	I am not sure what your await structure essentially means
16:05:06	krux02	does it mean it waits for one of them?
16:05:10	Araq	Nim's async await statement, for instance
16:05:22	Araq	yes, it means it waits for the 'or'
16:05:29	krux02	ah, ok I haven't used that one yet
16:06:32	Araq	with strict dataflow variables you can't do it, you can only do read(foo) and then read(bar)
16:06:33	krux02	ok, but isn't or always immediate?
16:07:20	krux02	I did not understand your await example, it does not have read
16:07:35	krux02	is both foo and bar a future?
16:07:48	krux02	and if yes, whot does it mean to have an or of a future?
16:08:12	*	PMunch quit (Quit: leaving)
16:08:19	Araq	don't get lost in the details.
16:08:52	krux02	Well I did not do a lot with futures, I just made file loading async
16:09:07	Araq	my point is: when the system allows for "wait for whatever comes first" then you introduced non-deterministic behaviour.
16:09:25	elrood	you could introduce a feature to check whether a dataflow variable access would block, to make futures and dfv likely powerful and safe ;)
16:10:02	krux02	well yea it is nondeterministic, but but that is also the point of it, isn't it?
16:10:22	Araq	yes, and it's the point of a dfv to not allow this :P
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16:11:05	krux02	ok
16:12:07	krux02	But I think scala's future are exactly what you call a dfv.
16:12:20	krux02	I don't think they support wait for whatever comes first
16:12:38	krux02	at least not when I programmed scala (in 2010)
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16:17:52	Araq	oh alright
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17:04:21	SusWombat	Hey guys i did discover nim yesterday and browsed the forums aswell. There was a discussion about the autocomplete not really working. Is this problem now solved?
17:12:59	Calinou	hi SusWombat :)
17:13:11	SusWombat	Calinou, Hi!
17:13:15	Calinou	SusWombat: usually, autocomplete works best in Visual Studio Code with the Nim add-on installed
17:13:25	Calinou	(VSCode is likely to be the best editor for doing Nim right now)
17:13:32	Calinou	(it's a very good editor for other languages too)
17:13:44	SusWombat	Well id prefer emacs but yeah vsc is fine
17:14:16	SusWombat	Calinou, now that i see you in here i kinda want nim bindings in godot :D
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17:36:18	Calinou	yeah, me too
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17:43:21	enthus1ast	godot looks kuhl
17:44:00	dom96	Calinou: hey, any chance you could have a go at fixing that issue you saw on my version of the new website?
17:45:00	dom96	(or give me pointers on how to do it? I'm a noob at pure grids)
17:52:17	enthus1ast	dom96: is the new website "mobile friendly"?
17:52:33	Calinou	enthus1ast: yes, it is
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17:58:09	Calinou	dom96: the navbar fix is literally 1-line, if you want to keep a fixed navbar on all displays
17:58:17	Calinou	I'll see if I can make it fixed only on mobile devices, if that's your preference
17:58:32	dom96	Calinou: I'd rather not have it fixed anywhere
17:58:47	dom96	But I can live with it only on mobile
17:59:03	dom96	The issue I am referring to is aligning the menu to the right properly
17:59:10	Calinou	non-fixed navbars don't make for good user experience on mobile, I find, because if you want to go to a page, you need to scroll all the way up
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17:59:56	dom96	Yeah, I can understand that.
18:00:12	dom96	So yeah, I'm happy with a fixed navbar on mobile.
18:00:27	Calinou	now, I made the navbar fixed on mobile, but static on desktop
18:00:46	Calinou	I'll look into the alignment issue
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18:02:02	dom96	thanks
18:04:23	*	Sembei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
18:06:20	jabb	is there any way to avoid having to implement functions on an object for ref Object and var Object?
18:06:50	jabb	i see a common pattern in the stdlib is to just have a private Impl proc
18:08:07	dom96	jabb: If you need reference semantics then you should use 'ref Object' exclusively
18:08:22	Calinou	whoa, I broke something in Firefox but not in Chromium
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18:11:45	Calinou	ok, fixed it in Firefox and Chromium
18:11:52	Calinou	I'm on Linux so I can't test Edge right now, will do later
18:11:58	Calinou	dom96: can I commit it to your branch?
18:12:03	dom96	Calinou: sure.
18:12:05	Calinou	then merge the branch into master, if it's good to go
18:12:24	dom96	No worries about Edge, we can run it through browsershots at the end (or whatever the popular service for that is nowadays)
18:12:42	dom96	Feel free to merge into master. I will continue working inside that branch though
18:12:49	dom96	There is still a lot to do
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18:15:14	Calinou	browserstack is probably the service you're thinking about, they offer free licenses for open source developers I think :)
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18:15:41	dom96	Nope, http://browsershots.org/.
18:15:46	dom96	I used it in the good old days
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18:17:22	Calinou	dom96: what's the merge strategy we use? Merge commits, squash and merge, or rebase?
18:17:30	dom96	merge
18:17:34	Calinou	merge commits?
18:18:57	dom96	yeah
18:19:05	dom96	no squashing and no rebasing
18:19:10	Calinou	ok
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18:19:29	dom96	Squashing in some circumstances (if it really is just a little change made over many commits)
18:20:10	jabb	Calinou, so anyone who wants to create the object on the stack will have to create a ref to call that proc
18:20:13	jabb	?
18:20:55	jabb	urm, wait. my questio is ref and var both have "ref" semantics
18:21:24	jabb	https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/master/lib/pure/collections/tables.nim#L121 here are two procs that have var Table, and ref Table
18:21:33	jabb	is there a way to avoid this duplication?
18:22:06	jabb	they're semantically the same. one just takes a reference to a stack object
18:23:30	dom96	jabb: was that question directed at me?
18:23:40	jabb	anyone bwahaha
18:23:41	Calinou	ok, merged to master
18:23:53	Calinou	this is the first time I do branch merges using Git CLI, forgive me if I did something wrong :p
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18:24:16	Calinou	followed this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5423517/how-do-i-push-a-local-git-branch-to-master-branch-in-the-remote/5434370#5434370
18:24:29	Calinou	I don't work with branches that often, I hope it's right
18:24:53	dom96	jabb: You might be able to write: proc clear[A,B](t: var Table[A, B] | TableRef[A,B]) = ...
18:25:53	dom96	Calinou: Looks good :)
18:26:06	jabb	var Table and TableRef are semantically the same. so it's weird there isn't an mechanism to encapsulate both
18:26:09	Calinou	ok :)
18:26:38	dom96	Calinou: ProTip: A good way to check is by looking here: https://github.com/nim-lang/website/branches (if something went wrong then you wouldn't see '0|0')
18:27:06	Xe	did the nim site finally get moved out of the main repo?
18:27:23	dom96	Xe: the new site is being developed in a new repo :)
18:27:48	Calinou	it's just a prototype (made using Jekyll) for now
18:28:44	dom96	jabb: hrm, perhaps, although I have a feeling that there are some differences in semantics
18:28:52	Xe	dom96: nice, gonna be great to see nim2017
18:31:53	jabb	dom96: the difference, in c++ terms, seems to be a one a pointer, the other is a reference
18:32:51	jabb	in c++, however, you don't have to deal with unified call syntax meddling with what functions can be called if a type is a ref, ptr, etc
18:33:30	jabb	go solves this with whatever you call the function with, it will be "morphed" into a reference or a value appropriately
18:33:49	FromGitter	<piotrklibert> @jabb about the ref and var types, I ran into this at some point and out of curiosity tried something like this: ⏎ ⏎ proc fT: ref SomeType | var SomeType (arg: T): t = ... ⏎ ⏎ and it seemed to work ok. But in the end I didn't need it. [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=58b8658cde5049082238c3d4]
18:35:02	jabb	why didn;t you need it?
18:36:02	FromGitter	<piotrklibert> Also, `type T = ref SomeType | var SomeType` also compiled and worked :)
18:36:25	jabb	they will have different assignment semantics
18:37:47	FromGitter	<piotrklibert> Ah, it was in the interpreter, about the object which held interpreter state. I allocated it once at the start and didn't need to allocate another one during runtime, so I settled for `var TclContext` everywhere.
18:38:39	jabb	that's application specific it sounds like, for a library maintainer you will have to cover both bases right?
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18:43:29	FromGitter	<piotrklibert> It looks like it, looking at the collections/tables.nim at least.
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18:46:24	demi-	python used to be my go-to language for writing something quick and messy but now it is starting to be nim; which is exceptionally nice tbh
18:50:20	federico3	is there the "dual" of varargs? foo(i[0], i[1], i[2].....)
18:55:00	federico3	perhaps https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/1186#7312
18:57:46	SusWombat	Hey guys :) I want to learn nim to use it to prototype a game using sdl2. Now my problem is there are 2 wrappers/bindings. Can anyone give me some input on which to use? (im also new to sdl)
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18:59:46	ldleworker	We should start an icon challenge in #nim-offtopic if you get the boilerplate going
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19:11:56	Araq	jabb: you can have 'var T' and use .experimental to get auto-deref on the first arg. but that can have surprsing results as zachcarter has shown us recently :-)
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19:31:51	dom96	SusWombat: This one is in the Nim-lang org so it's technically supported by us (nim devs) officially. https://github.com/nim-lang/sdl2
19:32:03	SusWombat	dom96, ok thanks
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19:44:03	Vladar	SusWombat: and sdl2_nim is supported by me, has nice docs https://vladar4.github.io/sdl2_nim/ and a WIP game engine ;-) https://github.com/Vladar4/nimgame2
19:47:26	dom96	Vladar: Why the decision to write your own? :)
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19:48:41	Vladar	dom96: I started it before there was official available
19:49:06	dom96	Vladar: oh. Our bad heh
19:49:12	dom96	I wonder if we could merge our efforts.
19:50:23	demi-	yglukhov: any plans to update this (https://github.com/yglukhov/plists) to support binary plists? :)
19:51:10	yglukhov	demi-: not really. but prs are welcome ;)
19:51:16	demi-	:(
19:52:21	zachcarter	SusWombat: I’m also working on a cross-platform 2d | 3d game library ala libgdx for Nim, but it’s no wher enear ready for production
19:52:52	zachcarter	no where*
19:53:32	SusWombat	ok thanks guys!
19:53:34	zachcarter	but if you have any questions about sdl2 stuff I’m happy to help
19:54:10	dom96	It's awesome to see so many people using Nim for games
19:54:23	zachcarter	dom96: agreed
19:54:36	Vladar	dom96: well two wrappers aren't so different, but sources structure is, and some structures too, like {.union.} for events
19:54:39	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> yeah it's really started to gain momentium in the last few months
19:55:37	Vladar	plus full documentation, of course
20:01:13	dom96	well, I dunno. I'm not the primary user of either of these.
20:01:26	dom96	yglukhov: you use the official one right? Any thoughts?
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20:13:43	yglukhov	dom96: dont really care. i use official because (a) its ok and (b) i can contribute to it in case it doesnt. no offense but i find it a (a) waste of time and (b) bad for nim ecosystem to provide several instances of pretty much the same thing. of course the "primary" maintainers should be accepting enough to encourage contribution. i really think that is the main mistake of D which didnt let it evolve when there was good time for it.
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20:14:33	dom96	yglukhov: I agree, which is why I would like for Vladar's and nim-lang's repos to be merged.
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20:15:42	yglukhov	to even more outline this point of view, i have transfered ownership of my jnim repo to vegansk. because some time ago he told me he was working on the same thing but more advanced, so i thought it would be good to shut down my lib and start working together on a new one
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20:20:25	dom96	that's brilliant :)
20:21:26	federico3	can I detect if header is present at compile time and add a flag to the linker accordingly?
20:22:28	yglukhov	federico3: linker doesnt make use of headers. whats the relation?
20:22:48	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> well a specific header may require some linker flag
20:23:01	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> if you are to actually use it
20:23:16	yglukhov	just the fact that it exists doesnt imply it is used
20:23:22	yglukhov	=)
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20:24:04	federico3	I need to pass -lsystemd to gcc :)
20:24:08	yglukhov	but yeah, you can refer to file system in compile-time, so it should be possible. also you can execute other programs.
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20:24:51	yglukhov	federico3: so why not to check for libsystemd existance?
20:24:54	dom96	I asked this a couple of days ago but didn't get any replies: anyone remember who managed to embed DLLs inside an exe and get the application to run? They created a macro for this not too long ago, but I can't remember who it was :\
20:25:10	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> there was a security paper on it
20:25:28	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> it's not hard if you want to just extract them on first run and then run the exe
20:25:39	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> if you want to actually LOAD the dlls from memory it's quite hard
20:25:45	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> not impossible
20:25:56	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> but very system dependent and fickle
20:26:07	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> you essentially have to rewrite much of the dynamic loader
20:26:16	federico3	yglukhov: I'm not sure where I can do the check and how to add that flag dynamically
20:26:29	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> let me see if I can find the paper dom96
20:27:03	Araq	dom96: zachcarter iirc
20:27:06	dom96	barcharcraz: probably not too difficult, but somebody here managed to do it so it would be much easier to just copy their code :)
20:27:15	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> https://github.com/fancycode/MemoryModule
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20:27:30	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> it's a good way to avoid your dll being scanned by security programs
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20:27:41	yglukhov	federico3: take a look at https://github.com/yglukhov/linktools
20:27:56	zachcarter	wasn’t me
20:28:01	dom96	My motivation is to avoid having to deal with static libraries on Windows. It seems much easier to embed a DLL inside the exe.
20:28:02	zachcarter	not sure who it was
20:28:09	federico3	yglukhov: very nice
20:28:21	dom96	And I might even end up doing the same thing on macOS
20:28:33	zachcarter	it would be nice
20:28:38	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> I mean static libs do work on windows
20:28:49	yglukhov	nimble install it; and then just: when libHasSymbol("mylib", "mySymbol"): {.passL: "mylib".}
20:28:57	yglukhov	federico3 *
20:28:59	dom96	I guess I'll need to look through the IRC logs to find it
20:29:05	Araq	dom96: I would avoid it
20:29:10	dom96	Araq: why?
20:29:30	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> it will cause problems with anti-malware and various security things
20:29:39	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> for one thing
20:29:48	Araq	it might have unforeseen consequences
20:29:59	Araq	better use an exe packer
20:30:02	Araq	let's see
20:30:05	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> http://www.harmonysecurity.com/files/HS-P005_ReflectiveDllInjection.pdf
20:30:27	dom96	but static linking is such a PITA :\
20:30:50	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> I used to static link my nim execs
20:30:53	demi-	static linking is terrible :(
20:31:48	dom96	I will need to link openssl and gzip at least
20:31:58	dom96	And I bet I will need to compile them manually
20:32:30	federico3	staticlinking openssl in? ouch
20:32:37	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> it can be done
20:32:42	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> I think I have done it
20:32:46	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> but yeah
20:32:49	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> it's not fun at all
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20:32:59	yglukhov	were doing it for android and ios
20:33:07	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> vcpkg has recipies to build static versions on windows
20:33:16	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> I think
20:33:39	federico3	dom96: do you really need SSL to bootstrap the compiler? ;)
20:33:54	dom96	federico3: Yes, in order to download the compiler.
20:35:16	federico3	dom96: can the compiler downloaded over http instead? The "shim" can contain the checksum of the version is going to pull
20:35:49	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> I know curl for one can use winssl, mbedtls and many others
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20:35:54	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> that are all easier to build on windows
20:36:07	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> winssl is not really "trusted" but it depends on your thread model
20:36:20	dom96	federico3: It could be... but I also want to support builds from GitHub
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20:37:00	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> mbedtls would very likely be easier to deal with
20:37:04	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> on windows at least
20:37:09	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> I'm not sure about mobile
20:37:14	federico3	dom96: if it's only a shim it can first download nim+nimble
20:37:17	dom96	I think I might just risk unforeseen circumstances with the embedding of DLLs
20:37:27	yglukhov	why not use winapi to download? or even better, use winapi to implement sslcontext. or even more better, implement ssl in nim! =)
20:37:41	federico3	like tripping antivirus checks?
20:37:47	dom96	yglukhov: I would love to, all of that would take far too much time.
20:37:49	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> yglukhov: Nobody really trusts secure channel
20:38:15	federico3	ssl in nim, hey!?
20:38:22	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> plz no
20:38:47	Araq	dom96: http://superuser.com/questions/42788/is-it-possible-to-execute-a-file-after-extraction-from-a-7-zip-self-extracting-a
20:39:12	Araq	it's rather complex to setup but at least it's all command line and so can be automated
20:39:42	Araq	and it might work on other OSes too with 7z, but not sure
20:39:59	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> trying to directly embed dlls may just get you straight up immediately blocked by some antivirus software
20:40:27	dom96	Hrm, go's tls module is only like 300 LOC https://golang.org/src/crypto/tls/tls.go
20:40:43	dom96	But I bet there are other modules that are larger
20:40:51	demi-	huh
20:41:00	dom96	(which it depends on)
20:41:08	federico3	dom96: but the crypto is implemented externally
20:43:00	Araq	there is even a youtube video of how to do that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh7JDNT-Luc
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20:46:20	Araq	http://7zip.bugaco.com/7zip/MANUAL/switches/sfx.htm
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20:46:48	Araq	^ use this and if you're stuck, try something else. but try this first.
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20:47:27	dom96	I dunno.
20:47:37	dom96	It seems to me like this would have similar problems with AVs
20:48:10	Araq	AVs can deal better with this than with custom solutions.
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20:48:40	dom96	ok, well, we've got a couple of options in any case.
20:48:55	Araq	plus offering the same as a .zip file is easy enough when you setup 7z already
20:49:42	Araq	show some respect, I spent some time researching these things -.- for Nim's installer.
20:50:51	federico3	yglukhov: oh, I can do {.passL: "...".}
20:51:57	dom96	Araq: I appreciate your help!
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21:00:09	cheatfate	just to clarify, if AV will signal on dll loaded in memory, this AV must be notified because it bug
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21:00:43	cheatfate	nothing except VirtualAlloc/VirtualFree/VirtualProtect is used
21:01:01	cheatfate	and usage of this functions is absolutely legal
21:01:15	cheatfate	exe packers using same technology
21:02:34	cheatfate	the main problem is how AV detects exe packed files is calculating entropy of compressed/crypted binary
21:03:04	cheatfate	so you need to stay with not high entropy in finish exe file
21:03:15	cheatfate	so you can avoid AV
21:03:40	cheatfate	even warnings
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21:05:12	cheatfate	about about 7z self extracting archive, first of all if you need to avoid AV, you can sign it...
21:05:23	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> that is a good point
21:05:33	cheatfate	but anyway most AV can unpack self extracted 7z archives
21:05:52	cheatfate	and check executables stored inside
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21:06:09	cheatfate	so there will be no warnings, until you dont crypt your 7z file
21:06:27	*	brson quit (Quit: leaving)
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21:07:01	cheatfate	but anyway windows users dont like to run `.exe` files downloaded from net.
21:07:20	cheatfate	but they agree to run `.msi` signed installers
21:07:25	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> yes, it's loading dll's direct from memory that may cause problems. Probably not with windows defender and friends but rather with more intrusive "security" software
21:08:01	cheatfate	barcharcraz: this is not true, just because such loading is common scheme
21:08:19	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> [citation needed]
21:08:30	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> I know the dll ends up mapped to memory
21:08:57	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> but bypassing the normal loader and search mechanism (kernel32) is not something I've seen much
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21:09:47	cheatfate	barcharcraz: virtualalloc, virtualfree, virtualprotect - its common scheme?
21:10:50	cheatfate	memory access in your process memory space is common scheme?
21:12:42	dom96	Would an AV complain about an exe writing a DLL to the hard drive and then loading it?
21:13:29	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> probably not
21:14:04	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> and yeah cheatfate, but messing with your own image header is pretty strange
21:14:06	ldleworker	dom96: lol
21:15:08	cheatfate	dom96, of course it can
21:16:20	dom96	Well, in the sense that an AV can complain about anything, right? But is it likely to complain?
21:16:41	cheatfate	barcharcraz: no modifications will be made to own image header, you even dont need to modify EPROCESS structure in runtime
21:17:28	elrood	dom96, don't you think your utilities and installers should look as trustworthy and rock-solid as possible? dll-embedding is nice as a proof-of-concept experiment, but it definitely isn't something one should consider using for basic tools in the context of a new-ish and unestablished language
21:18:04	cheatfate	AV works like score meter, so `drop unsigned dll and load it to memory` its like 50 points, but `drop signed DLL and load it to memory` is like 5 points
21:18:24	elrood	besides, statically embedding dlls is like cherry-picking the worst of both worlds, and this may-an-av-complain-or-may-it-not-pseudophilosophical discussion is not leading anyone anywhere
21:18:51	dom96	elrood: I do. But I also want to lower the barrier to entry as much as possible for newcomers.
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21:19:23	dom96	Perhaps I am going too far and I should just give them a zip with an .exe and some DLLs
21:19:27	elrood	if something looks fishy, people will drop it like a hot potato, which is not something you'd want for nim's tools, and especially not for newcomers
21:19:56	cheatfate	if you want to distribute binary for windows, first you need to get certificate, and then you need to make `.msi` installer...
21:20:01	ldleworker	"Think C#"
21:20:11	ldleworker	has been by advice for Nim from the start
21:20:34	ldleworker	(As in, highly polished and nothing seems out of place or grinds inoperatively against any other part, etc etc)
21:21:43	krux02	cheatfate: so basically windows is a closed system now.
21:22:06	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> code signing is not a bad thing
21:22:28	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> and you don't need it, but it makes you look legit
21:22:47	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> and makes it easier to use nim for security related thigns
21:23:00	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> bagh fingers are hard
21:23:03	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> hard to spell
21:23:52	krux02	yea, I was just excaggerationg
21:24:02	krux02	exaggerating
21:24:18	krux02	also hard to spell
21:24:35	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> eggseggseggsetrating
21:25:02	krux02	yea
21:25:50	krux02	I am on Linux, if I would be forced to develop something on Windows, I would be most happy, when I can install Nim via msys2 (probably becaues of my Arch linux background)
21:25:53	dom96	Yeah... I won't bother with certificates. For now at least.
21:26:06	dom96	Unless it's a barrier to the software working.
21:26:10	krux02	(if have no idea if it actually exists)
21:26:23	dom96	Which I guess Windows' smart screen (or whatever it's called) might cause.
21:27:48	krux02	well, I think the best certificate to be, is open source software.
21:27:49	dom96	I wonder if the Rust guys distribute rustup as a single exe for Windows
21:28:01	krux02	And a lot of "smart" people think the same way
21:28:13	krux02	so yea I agree, don't bother too much about certificates
21:28:16	dom96	I know that on macOS it can be grabbed by copying and pasting a single command (which itself isn't the safest thing in the world...)
21:28:19	krux02	that is for closed source software
21:28:52	demi-	dom96: hm?
21:29:19	federico3	krux02: however various distros have multiple layers of signatures
21:30:13	dom96	demi-: curl https://sh.rustup.rs -sSf | sh
21:30:29	demi-	oh, ew
21:30:35	krux02	what I mean is, when windows tells me that Software X is not trusted code, but software X has full sourcecode published on the internet, then I say, ok then I can take the risk, but when it is a software that is completely closed, I might not take the risk
21:30:38	demi-	curl-to-shell is awful
21:30:45	dom96	perhaps, but it's oh-so-convenient
21:31:02	elrood	dom96, quite frankly, if i was a newly introduced to nim and was presented with an installer which as its first action would try to connect to the net and download and run a bunch of stuff, i'd be less than delighted
21:31:32	elrood	mozilla can get away with it, being a trusted company, but nim? i'd turn my back in an instant, and probably a lot of people feel the same way
21:31:41	dom96	elrood: really? :(
21:32:03	dom96	That sucks. But keep in mind that this would be just one way to install Nim
21:32:14	elrood	i know it's convenient for you, but i'd really think twice about providing a batteries-included package for the newcomers instead of what you are considering
21:32:35	dom96	And I would do my best to explain what the exe does
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21:32:43	ldleworker	I think you're being hyperbolic and catastrophizing, elrood
21:33:12	ldleworker	I mean the language you're using is obviously intending to illustrate your concern in the most severe sense imaginable
21:33:30	elrood	i don't think so, but i appreciate your opinion
21:33:37	ldleworker	Lots of software today connects to the internet and downloads the actual content of the installer, not just "trusted corporations" like mozilla
21:33:39	krux02	I think Nim should be distributed with a processing like IDE (aporia for now should do it)
21:35:00	cheatfate	krux02, Aporia is NOT IDE
21:35:09	krux02	I should stop being part of this discussion, because I have absolutely no idea of the current state of Nim on Windows, but I guess the best batteries included package would be a setup that downloads the componets that you can select in a checklist.
21:35:46	dom96	Actually, our current Windows installer (which is broken btw) downloads things from the net.
21:35:47	krux02	cheatfate: well it does the job of letting the user quickly play around with Nim
21:36:16	cheatfate	krux02, php & python distros don't have even editor bundled...
21:36:21	ldleworker	dom96: the vast majority of users will turn their backs!
21:36:29	ldleworker	Seems like a thing you could instrument.
21:36:47	ldleworker	How many downloads resulted in requests to fetch the data? How many times was the data fully fetched?
21:37:06	krux02	cheatfate: yes, but they are php and python they don't need to attract newcomers anymore, python is taught at universities
21:37:38	cheatfate	krux02, but they dont have editors inside from the beginning...
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21:38:00	krux02	cheatfate: well python had idle in the past
21:38:24	krux02	well it actually still has idle
21:38:31	krux02	just tested it
21:38:31	dom96	ldleworker: You mean I should look at the analytics?
21:38:48	ldleworker	Yeah to vet elrood's fear unknowing and doubt
21:39:08	ldleworker	krux02, idle is seen as a joke
21:39:12	ldleworker	because it is
21:39:13	cheatfate	if we are talking about python windows distribution i dont see any `idle.exe`
21:39:34	Araq	once 0.17.0 is out, Nim's windows distribution is excellent, all things considered, IMHO.
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21:40:39	elrood	while i do find ldleworker's sarcasm slightly amusing and don't take it the wrong way, i'd really consider making the installers for such basic tools as a compiler and package manager look legit and trust-instilling as a primary goal
21:40:41	krux02	well idle did not stand the test of time, and when nim does become popular and bundles aporia in the current state, then yea it could become a joke too. But that is not the point.
21:40:43	cheatfate	there can be many installers for windows, pure nim, pure nim + mingw bundled, pure nim + mingw + pcre + sqlite3 + openssl bundled
21:41:12	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> can confirm nim's windows distribution is quite good
21:41:14	krux02	ceatfate: it should be just one installer with checkboxes (imho)
21:41:18	ldleworker	standing the test of time means that you were at some point fully functional
21:41:23	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> and working with nim on windows is even better
21:41:24	ldleworker	IDLE never was
21:41:44	krux02	well, I have no idea
21:41:44	cheatfate	krux02, stop breaking my nickname, please
21:41:46	ldleworker	Which is no surprise given an editor has no place in such a distribution
21:41:58	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> it is idle.pyw not idle.exe
21:42:07	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> hence why you don't see idle.exe
21:42:15	krux02	cheatfate: sorry
21:43:38	krux02	and it is somewhat required, because nobody wants an interactive shell in windows cmd.exe
21:44:02	krux02	or at least was, I don't know if something has changed in that respect
21:44:08	dom96	elrood: I'm glad you don't take it the wrong way. FWIW it was nice to hear your thoughts so please don't be discouraged from giving your honest opinion.
21:46:23	dom96	elrood: in the long-run trust-instilling is the goal. In the short-term I don't want anyone to be prevented from using Nim because they can't get it to work on Windows.
21:47:17	dom96	I remember when I was hunting for a new programming language, thinking "omg, how come everything is so broken, nobody seems to care about these things. I bet I would do better"
21:47:25	dom96	As a teenager that is easy to think :)
21:47:49	dom96	Back then Nim was actually one of the best on Windows
21:48:07	Xe	krux02: type the first few letters and hit tab
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21:49:20	krux02	Xe, just tested. Found a new feature.
21:49:41	Xe	krux02: the same thing works in most command line shells
21:51:07	elrood	dom96, and it probably still is. Araq's proposal of using a proven approach with a 7zip self-extracting archive has its charm, as does a .msi - i just wouldn't get too experimental with first-impression tools at this stage
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21:56:42	dom96	Sure, and I will try that.
21:56:55	dom96	.msi would be more of a replacement for our installer.
21:57:17	dom96	We've used inno and NSIS. Both turned out crap.
21:57:25	dom96	I sorta doubt that msi is any better :)
21:57:47	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> .msi is the "official" installer format
21:57:49	Xe	NSYS is the worst parts of assembly, javascript and C combined with the false promises of Oracle Java
21:57:58	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> intended to replace NSIS and inno
21:58:02	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> which cam before afaik
21:58:05	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> *came
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22:03:46	elrood	actually, we found NSIS to be quite malleable and while not necessarily pleasant at least adequate for its limited job back in the day, i am kind of surprised you found it unusable
22:04:47	elrood	assuming it or its successor hasn't become substantially worse in the meantime, it's been some years, that is
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22:09:45	Araq	elrood: the problem is it hasn't kept up with newer Windows versions
22:12:21	elrood	ah, i see, a pity. after winamp's decline nullsoft probably had little incentive to keep maintaining it
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22:19:27	dom96	I have a sort of nostalgic respect for nullsoft
22:19:41	dom96	But yeah, NSIS has become rather obsolete
22:23:18	euantor	Should just distribute floppy disks with the binaries on
22:23:34	euantor	Seems like Windows installer technology hasn't moved on much since then
22:23:44	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> well msi happened
22:23:55	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> MS decided to make a standard format
22:24:00	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> fairly simple, but standard
22:24:17	euantor	True, unfortunately a lot of companies have other ideas
22:24:34	euantor	Like exe downloads that you download in order to download some other stuff
22:25:04	euantor	case: see microsoft office
22:25:07	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> *cough* adobe *cough*
22:25:18	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> OK but that does some cool stuff
22:25:20	dom96	I had this thought that for v1 we should create a Delphi-styled CD box for Nim :)
22:25:24	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> like office actually streams the application
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22:26:24	euantor	It looks like Microsoft are pushing users towards UWP these days anyway, and in the future it'll be possible to only install apps from the Microsoft Store
22:26:28	elrood	you think CDs will still be a thing when nim reaches 1.0 status? ;)
22:26:32	enthus1ast	or the old bsd logos/arts
22:26:56	dom96	elrood: hah
22:28:04	enthus1ast	whats the issue with nsis?
22:28:33	enthus1ast	It seems that its downloading stuff and adds things to the path?
22:28:50	enthus1ast	what else do you want?
22:29:16	dom96	elrood: I guess it'll be one of these: https://youtu.be/8PVeLqWnaXk?t=13
22:30:01	dom96	Can't wait to upload the Nim compiler to my brain.
22:30:53	dom96	enthus1ast: It doesn't handle UAC properly.
22:31:12	dom96	enthus1ast: And cannot download from our new SSL website
22:31:41	enthus1ast	oh
22:31:58	enthus1ast	thats bad
22:32:16	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> huh
22:32:21	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> manifest it
22:32:25	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> that will fix uac
22:32:39	FromGitter	<barcharcraz> or just use msi
22:36:50	dom96	Well, since this is pretty much NIH central, I was thinking about developing a NSIS replacement in Nim :P
22:37:25	enthus1ast	yeah me to
22:38:12	dom96	If done well I think it might even be Nim's killer library.
22:39:43	elrood	mhm, take a language with focus on performant native code and elegance, and make an installer library its killer application ;P
22:40:51	enthus1ast	in fact it would be an installer only for windows
22:40:59	enthus1ast	and windows has msi
22:41:11	enthus1ast	the rest has others
22:41:24	Araq	enthus1ast: the NSIS installer does not work!
22:41:38	Araq	installing to c:\program files silently fails
22:41:51	Araq	downloads don't work anymore because we moved to https
22:41:52	dom96	Nim's focus is metaprogramming. Nim's expressiveness would be perfect for defining installers.
22:42:19	dom96	Other ideas for a killer app are of course welcome :)
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22:44:22	elrood	an AI for inventing roundishly shaped objects that'd ease transportation and relocation problems would be nice.. ;)
22:45:28	enthus1ast	monitor/control multiple servers in a self forming network
22:45:46	enthus1ast	so me as a admin only need to doubleclick
22:46:54	enthus1ast	mix of chef / pupped / saltstack / tinc
22:47:14	elrood	that's neglecting that a crucial part of being and admin is to make yourself indispensable, though
22:47:45	enthus1ast	i thing the crucial part is that i dont have "really" work
22:47:49	enthus1ast	at work
22:48:48	elrood	which only works until HR calls one in for a casual interview
22:49:34	enthus1ast	mime.nim
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23:05:57	SusWombat	Can i debug nim code?
23:06:25	Calinou	I think you can use basic gdb features, but I'm not sure
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23:07:15	SusWombat	ok
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23:29:22	Xe	SusWombat: why wouldn't you be able to?
23:29:45	SusWombat	Xe, im completely new. So i didnt know if there is a debugger or something
23:30:35	Xe	SusWombat: compile with `--debugger:native`
23:31:40	SusWombat	what does that do Xe
23:32:37	Xe	--debugger:native|endb use native debugger (gdb) | ENDB (experimental)
23:32:47	Xe	read the manual if in doubt
23:32:52	SusWombat	ok ty
23:33:05	Xe	https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html
23:33:11	Xe	keep this tab pinned
23:33:20	Xe	it'll help you so much it's not funny
23:36:30	SusWombat	ok
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23:52:24	Araq	Xe: interesting. the manual, not the index or some stdlib reference?
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23:57:06	Xe	Araq: i use the manual and work out from there into stdlib docs
23:57:23	Xe	i work in multiple languages so i usually keep the spec for each language up in a tab
23:58:26	Xe	it also explains the command line flags
23:58:51	Xe	(which is where i look first when things go contrary to what i think they should, nim is pretty good about being easy to guess
23:58:55	Xe	)
23:59:32	Araq	no it doesn't list command line flags
23:59:57	Araq	that would be https://nim-lang.org/docs/nimc.html