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| 00:39:12 | Kingsquee | aaugh |
| 00:39:22 | Kingsquee | rust is doing dumb things with their type system agaain |
| 00:39:46 | Kingsquee | why do you guys have to write such a sexy language but with a garbage collector :( |
| 00:40:01 | Kingsquee | a vile temptress, this nim-chan is |
| 00:40:17 | def- | Kingsquee: what's wrong with a GC? |
| 00:40:30 | EXetoC | potentially nothing |
| 00:41:17 | Kingsquee | I like being able to see what's happening or not-happening just from looking at the code |
| 00:41:41 | Kingsquee | the less magicks not written by me happening at runtime, the better |
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| 00:42:35 | gokr | Kingsquee: Then use assembler and never call anyone else's code :) |
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| 00:43:01 | Kingsquee | gokr: oh how I'd love to |
| 00:43:14 | EXetoC | really? |
| 00:43:22 | Kingsquee | http://blog.erratasec.com/2015/03/x86-is-high-level-language.html sadly |
| 00:43:26 | Kingsquee | those days are numbered too |
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| 00:45:55 | gokr | Kingsquee: What "dumb thing" is Rust doing? |
| 00:46:20 | EXetoC | but using pure assembly for example incurs a massive development overhead |
| 00:46:35 | Kingsquee | I think the best way to describe it is they're defining relationships with the type system |
| 00:46:58 | Kingsquee | primarily with how they're handling strings |
| 00:48:27 | Kingsquee | they've got a String type and a &str type, the first is an owned, mutable unicode string, and the second is basically an immutable slice reference to some valid-unicode bytes |
| 00:49:06 | Kingsquee | note that they don't use &String because that passes an immutable reference to the whole string |
| 00:49:40 | Kingsquee | and if there's any type that closely wraps a string, like say, a filesystem path, it too has to carry that same pattern |
| 00:49:46 | EXetoC | there is a lot of "magic" going on in some libs that I use, but I have simply no need to know what that would be exactly |
| 00:49:56 | Kingsquee | so you get PathBuf/Path wrapping an OsString/OsStr |
| 00:49:58 | Kingsquee | and aagh |
| 00:50:05 | Kingsquee | combined with static typing and conversions |
| 00:50:16 | Kingsquee | and error checking if the thing is valid utf8 |
| 00:50:42 | EXetoC | the same goes for garbage collection. knowing the semantics of the program and the individual instructions that are executed are two very different things |
| 00:50:46 | Kingsquee | let dir_name = String::from_str(toml_path.parent().unwrap().file_name().unwrap().to_str().unwrap()); |
| 00:51:00 | * | Kingsquee can't scream only laugh |
| 00:51:34 | EXetoC | though you might have just meant "it seems nice, but it's not for me" |
| 00:51:55 | EXetoC | you can't escape that? I recall functions such as unwrap for example but I haven't used rust in some time |
| 00:52:16 | Kingsquee | they have ways to leave the unwrap() until the very end |
| 00:52:32 | Kingsquee | but you have to use and_then(function) |
| 00:52:43 | Kingsquee | which ends up being even longer and uglier to read |
| 00:52:48 | * | Kingsquee shrugs |
| 00:53:43 | Kingsquee | someday a nim-ish language will use a borrow checker |
| 00:53:46 | Kingsquee | and the world will be at peace |
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| 00:56:02 | EXetoC | as long as I don't have to use it. I think there are plans for such things |
| 00:59:02 | Kingsquee | that would be amazing |
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| 01:07:19 | fowlmouth | Araq, I didnt know that ._. |
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| 06:51:22 | yglukhov | Hello, channel! ;) |
| 06:51:35 | yglukhov | Can anyone test the following? |
| 06:51:35 | yglukhov | nim doc2 "--hint[Conf]:off" '--hint[Path]:off' '--hint[Processing]:off' --putenv:nimversion=0.10.3 --docSeeSrcUrl:https://github.com/Araq/Nim/tree/master/lib/impure -o:web/upload/graphics.html --index:on lib/impure/graphics.nim |
| 06:52:04 | yglukhov | I've got an ICE |
| 06:55:30 | fowlmouth | Error: arguments can only be given if the '--run' option is selected |
| 06:56:08 | yglukhov | err.... is it latest devel you have? |
| 06:57:26 | fowlmouth | it works for me when i remove the quotes |
| 06:57:28 | yglukhov | is it at least devel? ;) |
| 06:57:44 | yglukhov | oh. ok |
| 06:57:53 | yglukhov | so you don't have an ICE? |
| 06:58:48 | fowlmouth | if you compile with --linetrace:on or stacktrace:on you can see where the error is from |
| 06:58:51 | yglukhov | had to quote, becuse my zsh tried to do something weird with those brackets |
| 06:58:54 | fowlmouth | i dont remember which it is |
| 06:59:07 | yglukhov | nim doc2 "--hint[Conf]:off" '--hint[Path]:off' '--hint[Processing]:off' --putenv:nimversion=0.10.3 --docSeeSrcUrl:https://github.com/Araq/Nim/tree/master/lib/impure -o:web/upload/graphics.html --index:on lib/impure/graphics.nim |
| 06:59:07 | yglukhov | Traceback (most recent call last) |
| 06:59:07 | yglukhov | nim.nim(94) nim |
| 06:59:07 | yglukhov | nim.nim(56) handleCmdLine |
| 06:59:07 | yglukhov | main.nim(279) mainCommand |
| 06:59:07 | yglukhov | main.nim(53) commandDoc2 |
| 06:59:07 | yglukhov | modules.nim(203) compileProject |
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| 07:00:53 | yglukhov | i shouldn't have pasted the traceback here :) |
| 07:01:20 | fowlmouth | yglukhov, its nice to have if you want to try to fix it or also good to post with the issue |
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| 07:01:56 | yglukhov | fowlmouth: i've got the traceback, I'm just curious whether you observe ICE on your OS? |
| 07:02:08 | yglukhov | what's your os btw? |
| 07:02:57 | fowlmouth | windows |
| 07:03:30 | yglukhov | ok cool. and you have that ICE as well, don't you? |
| 07:04:34 | fowlmouth | no |
| 07:04:46 | fowlmouth | it works for me |
| 07:05:13 | yglukhov | ok. thanks for help. |
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| 10:35:38 | flyx | are there any best practices for source code layout? can I have a source file "package.nim" and at the same level a directory "package" with more source files in it? |
| 10:36:05 | filwit | flyx: yes you can do that and it works well |
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| 11:24:16 | federico3 | how can I get the destination of a symlink? getFileInfo doesn't provide it and if I readFile on it it will follow the symlink |
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| 11:37:58 | federico3 | aha: posix readlink |
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| 11:49:33 | flyx | the unittest framework is a bit strange. I have code that works normally, but doesn't work when I put it in a test case |
| 11:50:05 | pigmej | flyx: remove checks |
| 11:50:32 | flyx | I currently have no checks |
| 11:51:10 | flyx | well test is a macro, and I also use macros, so maybe they just bite each other or something |
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| 12:45:12 | kashyap_ | Can someone please send me a sample program to connect to SQL server |
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| 13:06:57 | LoneTech | kashyap_: nope, but what you want may be related to database support under http://nim-lang.org/lib.html#impure-libraries |
| 13:07:25 | LoneTech | or wrappers |
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| 13:12:45 | kashyap_ | Thanks LoneTech .... I had checked out that link .. I am considering using odbcsql but not quite sure how to ... |
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| 13:13:57 | LoneTech | me neither |
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| 13:32:51 | def- | kashyap_: odbc seems to be missing the high level sql library, so I guess someone would have to write that first |
| 13:33:20 | kashyap_ | oh I see |
| 13:33:28 | kashyap_ | thanks def |
| 13:34:03 | def- | sqlite, mysql and postgres have it already and can be used easily: https://github.com/def-/nim-unsorted/blob/master/tablecreation.nim |
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| 13:36:37 | tumult | if I had the Nim skills I'd write the wrapper for SQL server myself as that would let me start using Nim at work, but sadly I'm too much of a noob atm :/ |
| 13:36:53 | tumult | on my todo list tho |
| 13:38:20 | tumult | I do just want to say though that basic3d and basic2d are FANTASTIC :D |
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| 13:49:00 | Araq | don't do it via odbc. |
| 13:49:12 | Araq | use the native APIs instead |
| 13:49:55 | Araq | we don't need yet another layer in between with lots of silly integer typedefs and crap |
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| 18:12:02 | ldlework | Julia has an official Docker image now |
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| 18:37:11 | reactormonk | ldlework, docker? |
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| 18:51:53 | dom96 | ldlework: does Nim have one? |
| 18:53:29 | ldlework | dom96: Don't think so |
| 18:54:04 | dom96 | ldlework: Why? |
| 18:54:58 | ldlework | dom96: Probably because no one from the Nim project has reached out to Docker Inc to maintain one. |
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| 19:15:48 | renesac | there is some new magic in the compiler |
| 19:15:59 | renesac | do I need to download the csources again to be able to bootstrap it? |
| 19:17:38 | def- | renesac: if ./koch boot -d:release fails, yes |
| 19:17:47 | renesac | ok |
| 19:18:12 | renesac | it's been some time since I updated the compiler |
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| 19:20:53 | federico3 | may I suggest putting an "edit me on github" link to the docs HTML pages to encourage contribution? |
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| 19:25:08 | reactormonk | federico3, hm. would need to go into koch web probably |
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| 19:31:12 | federico3 | reactormonk: the tool itself rather than configuration/template files? |
| 19:31:52 | reactormonk | federico3, I don't know how exactly you would have to add it |
| 19:32:24 | dom96 | ldlework: Any chance you could maintain one? |
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| 20:18:42 | vbtt_ | so 'concepts' are a proper feature now? i though the user defined type classes had some bugs. |
| 20:22:45 | vbtt_ | can I read the devel manual in the pretty web format somewhere? |
| 20:25:11 | EXetoC | some bugs remain |
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| 20:28:04 | Araq | vbtt_: no. they are not working yet |
| 20:28:20 | Araq | but at least they have a sexy name now |
| 20:28:42 | Araq | but they will be in 1.0, quite sure |
| 20:29:06 | def- | vbtt_: ./koch web builds the documentation (and some more) |
| 20:29:33 | Araq | koch pdf builds PDFs |
| 20:29:35 | Araq | iirc |
| 20:31:22 | renesac | vbtt_: http://nim-build.nim-lang.org/documentation.html |
| 20:31:44 | renesac | at least this used to work |
| 20:32:50 | renesac | araq: 'rune' should be int32 (or uint32), not int, don't you think? |
| 20:33:30 | Araq | renesac: I don't care, int is not wrong |
| 20:33:31 | renesac | *RuneImpl |
| 20:33:50 | renesac | well, it is 4 bytes more per element in the string on 64bit systems, isn't? |
| 20:33:58 | renesac | and 4 bytes per character is already big |
| 20:34:23 | Araq | sure make a PR |
| 20:35:20 | renesac | ok |
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| 20:35:41 | renesac | and there is no function to convert a unicode string to the closest ascii string possible, right? |
| 20:35:57 | Araq | there is unidecode.nim for that |
| 20:35:57 | def- | what does "closest" even mean? |
| 20:36:14 | renesac | depends |
| 20:36:28 | def- | oh, unidecode looks interesting |
| 20:36:52 | renesac | I'm fine with 'ê' being converted in either 'e' or 'e^' |
| 20:37:59 | renesac | thanks Araq, I didn't saw it |
| 20:38:16 | renesac | *didn't see |
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| 20:41:49 | Strikecarl | What lib is involved in keystrokes? |
| 20:42:03 | Strikecarl | i want to make a program, while i hold space it clicks space every 20 ms. |
| 20:43:22 | reactormonk | Strikecarl, that's an OS setting. If you want real control, gotta do something else |
| 20:43:34 | Strikecarl | kk. |
| 20:43:44 | reactormonk | so you want keydown/keyup information? |
| 20:43:50 | Strikecarl | yes |
| 20:43:51 | Strikecarl | like |
| 20:43:59 | Strikecarl | while(keydown(spaceidhere)) |
| 20:44:04 | reactormonk | not sure you can do that on a terminal, but you can certainly do it in a gui |
| 20:44:10 | Strikecarl | kk. |
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| 20:46:57 | reactormonk | Strikecarl, yup, terminals are character-based, not event-based |
| 20:47:04 | Strikecarl | Ah kk. |
| 20:47:30 | reactormonk | I assume you're talking about a terminal app |
| 20:48:28 | Strikecarl | Yup. |
| 20:49:38 | vbtt_ | thanks Araq, renesac |
| 20:49:56 | vbtt_ | Araq:did you see my note a few days ago about parsing 'f -1` and `f - 1`? |
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| 20:50:09 | vbtt_ | basically, coffeescript and moonscript already do it like you proposed |
| 20:50:15 | vbtt_ | f -1 -> f(-1) |
| 20:56:23 | vbtt_ | Araq:about 'concepts' - just saw some related commits and assumed it was now on track for 1.0 |
| 20:57:14 | pigmej | hmm |
| 20:57:29 | pigmej | is there any 'incomming changes' list ? |
| 20:58:34 | def- | https://github.com/Araq/Nim/blob/devel/todo.txt https://github.com/Araq/Nim/wiki/Roadmap |
| 20:58:37 | vbtt_ | pigmej: github |
| 20:58:55 | vbtt_ | I was just talking about https://github.com/Araq/Nim/commits/devel |
| 20:59:45 | pigmej | ok |
| 21:00:26 | pigmej | vbtt_: well contracts aren't on devel afair? |
| 21:01:10 | vbtt_ | what are contracts? |
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| 21:12:55 | pigmej | hmm |
| 21:13:51 | pigmej | concepts :) |
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| 21:14:12 | pigmej | misstype :) |
| 21:19:20 | def- | concepts are on devel, renamed from generics |
| 21:20:12 | pigmej | hmm |
| 21:20:29 | pigmej | that would explain:) |
| 21:22:25 | Demos | wait, we are talking the keyword rihgt |
| 21:22:34 | Demos | like user defined typeclasses |
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| 21:33:41 | vbtt_ | yes, the keyword is now 'concept' |
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| 21:57:53 | renesac | how do I use unidecode.nim? |
| 21:58:12 | renesac | I tried compiling my program with 'nim c -r test.nim -d:embedUnidecodeTable' |
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| 21:59:03 | def- | renesac: you'll need a unidecode table |
| 21:59:13 | renesac | it is in the same folder |
| 21:59:24 | renesac | as the module |
| 21:59:30 | renesac | there is a line there "when defined(embedUnidecodeTable):" |
| 21:59:36 | renesac | how I trigger it? |
| 21:59:49 | def- | that would be -d:embedUnidecodeTable |
| 22:00:00 | renesac | that is what I tried |
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| 22:00:05 | def- | but the slurp path may not work anymore |
| 22:00:35 | def- | renesac: Seems to do something for me, not sure if it's useful what it does |
| 22:00:41 | renesac | lib/pure/unidecode/unidecode.nim(46, 10) Error: type mismatch: got (seq[string], int literal(65535)) |
| 22:00:42 | def- | renesac: try calling loadUnidecodeTable() first |
| 22:00:42 | renesac | but expected one of: |
| 22:00:42 | renesac | system.newSeq(len: int) |
| 22:00:42 | renesac | system.newSeq(s: var seq[T], len: int) |
| 22:01:04 | renesac | this is what happened when I used "when true:" there |
| 22:02:41 | def- | works for me |
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| 22:04:29 | renesac | well, loading with the proc works |
| 22:04:44 | def- | you can either copy the unidecode.dat to your directory, or use -d:embedUnidecodeTable |
| 22:04:55 | renesac | why it can't be loaded automatically on import? |
| 22:05:14 | def- | so you can define another file i guess |
| 22:05:47 | def- | Maybe you can improve the module, it looks pretty small |
| 22:06:00 | renesac | yeah |
| 22:06:05 | renesac | well, now it is working |
| 22:06:34 | def- | similarly with math's random, you have to call randomize() before using it |
| 22:07:05 | renesac | the problem was calling -d: after the file |
| 22:07:17 | renesac | in my original command line |
| 22:07:28 | def- | if you write it after the file then it becomes an argument to the program you're running (if you use -r) |
| 22:07:43 | renesac | oh, right |
| 22:08:07 | renesac | well, the problem is that here it is not simply "randomize()" |
| 22:08:42 | renesac | it is "longprocname(path_to_your_nim_library_sources/unidecode.dat)" |
| 22:09:10 | def- | longprocname() if you want to use the default file |
| 22:09:20 | renesac | oh |
| 22:09:27 | renesac | ok, not so bad |
| 22:10:42 | renesac | Error: unhandled exception: cannot open: unidecode.dat [IOError] <--- nope |
| 22:11:03 | def- | you'll need a unidecode.dat in the directory of your main.nim |
| 22:11:10 | renesac | you must find the file and copy to your working directory |
| 22:11:24 | renesac | yep, that is bad |
| 22:11:46 | def- | maybe make embedding the default? |
| 22:11:48 | renesac | is there some way to make the default arg relative to the module directory? |
| 22:12:01 | def- | hm, i don'T think so |
| 22:12:05 | def- | how do you want to find the module dir at runtime? |
| 22:12:11 | def- | the user may not even have Nim installed |
| 22:12:16 | renesac | good question |
| 22:12:57 | def- | the only way I see to change it would be to embed it by default |
| 22:13:22 | renesac | yeah, there is no explanation on why it is not so |
| 22:13:53 | def- | I guess you don't want to fill up binaries with some huge database |
| 22:14:02 | renesac | increases the executable size by 1.3MB |
| 22:14:17 | renesac | and unicode.dat is only 227kb |
| 22:14:44 | renesac | actually, more like 1.4 to 1.5MB |
| 22:16:01 | def- | strip -s gets it down to 900 KB but still pretty bad |
| 22:17:34 | Araq | vbtt_: yes thanks, I did see it |
| 22:19:42 | Araq | yes these unicode tables are *huge* |
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| 22:21:29 | renesac | well, there is a middle ground: |
| 22:21:41 | renesac | const staticdata = slurp"unidecode/unidecode.dat" |
| 22:21:41 | renesac | var translationTable = splitLines staticdata |
| 22:22:12 | renesac | with that it only grows the size of the unicode.dat |
| 22:22:25 | Araq | yeah "only" |
| 22:22:32 | renesac | that would be needed anyway |
| 22:22:39 | flaviu | If executable size is that important, just use UPX or something. |
| 22:23:11 | Araq | just put the file next to your .exe :P |
| 22:23:26 | renesac | is there a severe downside of having the executable file size increasing instead of having it in a separate file? |
| 22:23:42 | renesac | it is more convenient if it is embeded |
| 22:23:44 | Araq | or sudo it to /etc/bananajoe |
| 22:23:46 | flaviu | Depends on the quality of your virtual memory implementation. |
| 22:24:27 | def- | renesac: i'd like to be able to update the binary without transferring some embedded files all the time |
| 22:25:03 | renesac | that could still be an option |
| 22:25:32 | flaviu | def-: I feel that this may be a case of premature optimization. |
| 22:25:53 | def- | flaviu: for me it's more about keeping a clean boundary |
| 22:26:11 | def- | much easier to just swap the unidecode.dat file without swapping the exe at the same time |
| 22:26:16 | def- | or even editting it by hand |
| 22:27:08 | flaviu | fair enough then |
| 22:27:08 | def- | flaviu: and I'm already paying extra for traffic, so it's not premature for me |
| 22:27:11 | renesac | I think most users won't alter the unidecode.dat |
| 22:27:44 | renesac | and I still rarelly see delta updates for software |
| 22:28:04 | renesac | and it is less than 300kb |
| 22:29:47 | renesac | I will put at least some clarification on the documentation indicating that one should copy the unidecode.dat to it's own project |
| 22:30:19 | renesac | maybe unidecode should be a nimble package |
| 22:30:30 | renesac | that one could then add as a dependency |
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| 22:35:03 | Araq | +1 for making it a nimble package |
| 22:35:10 | Araq | doesn't belong into the stdlib |
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| 23:28:58 | filwit | so I've been thinking about working on object constructors soon, but while considering the code I realize Nim already has something that almost works similar to overload-by-returnType constructors: converters.. it's just they're currently limited |
| 23:29:44 | filwit | would it not be better to extend converters to allow multiple parameters as almost a sugar for converters which took a tuple? |
| 23:30:57 | filwit | one sec |
| 23:32:27 | filwit | one sec |
| 23:32:32 | filwit | whoops |
| 23:34:15 | filwit | okay, so what I mean clearly is: |
| 23:34:27 | filwit | proc newFoo(a, b:int): Foo = ... |
| 23:34:37 | filwit | can be used like: |
| 23:34:47 | filwit | var f = newFoo(1, 2) |
| 23:34:55 | filwit | var f: Foo = (1, 2) |
| 23:35:41 | filwit | whoops, damn.. `newFoo` is supposed to be a `converter` not a proc |
| 23:36:37 | filwit | anyways, that syntax is almost already possible today in Nim |
| 23:36:59 | filwit | converter newFoo(t:tuple[a, b:int]): Foo = ... |
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| 23:38:14 | filwit | but you have to actually pass a tuple to 'newFoo', and withing newFoo you have to prefix all "parameters" with 't.' |
| 23:40:01 | Araq | I don't like ;-) surprising, huh? |
| 23:41:31 | filwit | Well I'm not entirely sure if this is the best either... one better thing about extending constructor syntax is that constructors are available to every type by default, while `var f: Foo = ()` is not a universal way to allocate an object. |
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| 23:43:16 | filwit | the thing is I can't help but feel like hijacking converters is more "seamless".. because this syntax is already part of Nim, it's almost feels like "less magic" going on |
| 23:44:07 | filwit | less magic than having constructors implicitly invoke a 'create' proc I mean |
| 23:49:44 | flaviu | filwit: I still think my proposal is the best ;) |
| 23:49:46 | Araq | converters are not encouraged |
| 23:50:18 | Araq | it seems wrong to enhance them to get "constructors" |
| 23:50:55 | flaviu | The central difference in my proposal is 'var f: Foo = ()' -> 'var f = Foo()'. |
| 23:51:07 | EXetoC | what's the purpose? do you need to invoke constructors generically? a convention like we have now seems fine to me |
| 23:51:48 | flaviu | For me? Aesthetics. |
| 23:52:33 | filwit | EXetoC: good point, the converter syntax doesn't support generics well |
| 23:53:16 | filwit | flaviu: i'm not sure exactly what your proposal was, can you link me to where you talk about it? |
| 23:53:45 | flaviu | https://github.com/Araq/Nim/issues/1693 |
| 23:53:45 | EXetoC | it's nice and short though |
| 23:56:27 | filwit | flaviu: i actually made what you originally suggest there already |
| 23:56:39 | filwit | flaviu: it doesn't work very well though |
| 23:56:46 | flaviu | hmm? |
| 23:57:09 | filwit | i'm trying to remember the problems I was having with it |
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