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| 08:16:24 | gorgonzolapasta | g/ |
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| 09:59:50 | gokr | The latest Red release looks ... impressive: http://www.red-lang.org |
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| 10:47:08 | cheatfate | gokr, it looks like advertising... |
| 10:47:25 | gokr | Hm? |
| 10:48:21 | cheatfate | gokr, your message about xxx language |
| 10:49:00 | gokr | It's not advertising - I was just told about that release and when I read about it it felt relevant since it adds a full IDE/graphical layer. |
| 10:49:39 | gokr | And no, I am not involved in Red, but I find it fairly interesting. |
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| 11:22:36 | gokr | But if you want some advertising I just got my Ni interpreter running in a browser neatly: http://www.krampe.se/ni.html |
| 11:23:04 | gokr | The Ni interpreter written in 1600 lines of Nim code is 91k minified js, kinda nice. |
| 11:23:23 | gokr | Of course, hard to know what one can do unless one knows a bit of Ni ;) |
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| 11:44:01 | kulelu88 | can Nim code be statically compiled? |
| 11:45:39 | bbl | kulelu88: what do you mean? |
| 11:46:22 | kulelu88 | bbl: similar to how Go statically compiles a binary, is it possible to do the equivalent in Nim so that my executable can be run without any dependencies? |
| 11:47:08 | bbl | Im going to skip this conversation :) |
| 11:47:34 | kulelu88 | :d |
| 11:59:09 | def- | kulelu88: yes, it's possible |
| 11:59:48 | def- | kulelu88: by default you have the C library dynamically linked, but that should be available on every platform. Nim libs are statically compiled anyway. C libs can be statically compiled in very much the same way as you would do in C |
| 12:00:08 | def- | and if you really want to statically link a C library, musl works fine for that |
| 12:00:33 | kulelu88 | interesting, thanks for the feedback |
| 12:02:40 | def- | an alternative approach is to link dynamically and have a lib/ directory which you add to the search path when linking your binary |
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| 16:24:48 | cheatfate | proc hstrerror*(herrnum: cint): cstring {.importc:"(char *)$1", header: "<netdb.h>".} what does it mean "(char *)$1"? |
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| 16:59:34 | federico3 | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/wiki/Style-Guide-for-Nim-Code "checkHttpHeader instead of checkHTTPHeader" Whaat? |
| 17:01:46 | Arrrr | whaat? |
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| 17:20:33 | dom96 | federico3: it's easier to tell where the acronym ends and the next word begins |
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| 17:25:47 | federico3 | dom96: true, however sometimes it's not an issue; or we can use underscores; also visually recognizing an acronym commonly written in uppercase when written in capitalized can be slower and miselading - however, what got my attention is the claim about the "foolish to pretend" |
| 17:28:11 | elrood | that's just the usual opinionated style you'll encounter all over with Nim ;) |
| 17:28:59 | dom96 | feel free to use whichever style you wish :) |
| 17:29:07 | fredrik92 | just to be clear (and I know this is a VERY controversial topic), since Nim originally stems from a C-community, I guess Nim code should mainly use snake_case naming conventions? |
| 17:29:31 | dom96 | Nim doesn't stem from a C community. |
| 17:30:10 | fredrik92 | ah, just compiles to by accident C? :O ok, my bad! :P |
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| 17:30:23 | Arrrr | snake_case? heresy! |
| 17:30:52 | dom96 | the style guidelines reflect the code style that the Nim compiler, standard library and related tools adopt. |
| 17:30:59 | dom96 | (kind of) |
| 17:31:14 | federico3 | fredrik92: I wish! |
| 17:31:28 | fredrik92 | so what do we mainly use in Nim? I havent got the manual open right now, what's the convention in stdlib? |
| 17:31:40 | dom96 | camelCase |
| 17:31:50 | federico3 | again I feel the need for a linter |
| 17:32:02 | dom96 | for procedures and variables, PascalCase for types |
| 17:32:29 | dom96 | (and for consts too, which I personally dislike) |
| 17:32:40 | fredrik92 | let's write one! :D anything on public or non-public (ah, wait that's the asterisk, right...) |
| 17:32:45 | dom96 | But the language is style insensitive for a reason ;) |
| 17:33:13 | elrood | actually, whether one prefers snake_case or camelCase or whichever really is question of style, what's a little offputting and not really helping the adoption of Nim along is the undiplomatic wording of which the one right way is and that all others are foolish, and the mindset behind that |
| 17:33:13 | fredrik92 | yeah, well, so is C, C#, Python and many other langs I know |
| 17:33:47 | federico3 | my point exactly, elrood |
| 17:34:02 | fredrik92 | elrood, that's the reason, I tried to phrase dimplomatically and use 'mainly'! :D |
| 17:34:20 | dom96 | elrood: agreed. |
| 17:35:04 | elrood | you'd have to get really deep into Araq's brain and fiddle around a little there to change the basic issue, i guess ;) |
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| 17:35:29 | fredrik92 | :D |
| 17:36:33 | federico3 | let's just hope this "undiplomatic wording" is not too offputting for newcomers and it's not hurting the project too much :( |
| 17:37:12 | dom96 | federico3: feel free to modify the wiki to make it sound more diplomatic |
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| 17:37:57 | fredrik92 | ah, well... when working with computer scientist, how often do you not have to put up with someone stating that their way is the only right way to do something and everything else in inferior? :P |
| 17:39:20 | fredrik92 | Being a TA, at some point, I have learned, you have to get past that and see it more from a comical perspective instead of being offended! |
| 17:39:43 | federico3 | fredrik92: it depends on the environment where you are... in some places it's really not welcome |
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| 17:41:29 | fredrik92 | yeah, frederico3, yeah that's true, that's why I asked what's mostly used in Nim... Being consistent with the majority helps a lot in many cases... :P |
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| 17:44:17 | Arrrr | Do the majority use snake case? |
| 17:44:56 | dom96 | Arrrr: Majority uses camel case I think |
| 17:51:44 | dom96 | So I was thinking of creating a survey to get a feeling for what the Nim community thinks about Nim, what areas they think we should be focusing on etc. What do you guys think about that idea? |
| 17:53:20 | gokr | dom96: Sure, why not! |
| 17:53:58 | dom96 | Also, I'm happy to hear any suggestions you guys have for what the survey should ask :) |
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| 17:54:43 | Arrrr | Yeah, why not? |
| 17:55:53 | Arrrr | I would ask about documentation, core library, support, learning material ... |
| 17:56:46 | federico3 | dom96: so you just ran a survey about running a survey? |
| 17:57:05 | dom96 | federico3: Maybe :P |
| 17:57:07 | federico3 | +1 |
| 17:57:25 | elrood | dom96, depends on how many people are actively developing Nim and its basic toolchain and what their main motivation is |
| 17:57:39 | dom96 | whew, looks like I *finally* got the damn GTK2 library compiled on Mac OS X correctly. |
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| 17:58:08 | federico3 | one suggestion: always offer comparative choices, e.g. "what is more important? A / B / C" instead of "how important is A?" |
| 17:58:40 | dom96 | Will do. Might even get the time to do it tonight if I'm lucky. |
| 17:58:57 | federico3 | a simple google survey thingy maybe? |
| 17:59:19 | elrood | while some kind of feedback loop is a great idea, it could also hurt if the top wishes in the survey and the ones the main developers personally are interested in and want to focus on don't match up |
| 17:59:21 | Arrrr | survey monkey |
| 17:59:47 | federico3 | elrood: how does it hurt? |
| 17:59:58 | dom96 | oh yeah, suggestions on which survey website/software to use also welcome |
| 18:00:07 | dom96 | I was thinking of using Google's survey thing |
| 18:00:22 | dom96 | unless survey monkey is significantly better? |
| 18:00:42 | federico3 | this is getting more meta |
| 18:00:46 | dom96 | lol |
| 18:01:06 | dom96 | Let me just create a quick survey to determine which survey software to use |
| 18:01:42 | federico3 | create a quick survey to determine which survey software to use to create a quick survey ... |
| 18:02:39 | elrood | federico3, there's a possibility for friction if the community's demands and the developers interests aren't going in the same direction, and that could hurt motivation and speed of development |
| 18:02:50 | dom96 | http://strawpoll.me/7259671 |
| 18:02:57 | dom96 | because why not |
| 18:03:50 | dom96 | elrood: hrm, indeed, as Cypher in The Matrix said "ignorance is bliss" |
| 18:03:57 | Arrrr | How is google survey? |
| 18:04:13 | federico3 | elrood: arguably, I'd say could be better to be aware of the misaligned interests? |
| 18:04:14 | dom96 | But I think in this case we shouldn't be ignorant :) |
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| 18:06:49 | dom96 | hey flyx, you around? |
| 18:07:22 | elrood | sure. let's just hope the community stays humble in what it wishes for. on the other hand, every project gets the community it deserves ;P |
| 18:08:41 | dom96 | oh wow, 7 votes |
| 18:08:49 | dom96 | and majority wants survey monkey |
| 18:08:58 | dom96 | I'm honestly surprised by that |
| 18:09:21 | dom96 | why the Google Survey hate? |
| 18:09:53 | Arrrr | Make another poll |
| 18:10:04 | elrood | google are collecting too much data already ;) btw, doesn't the forum provide some kind of poll functionality yet? |
| 18:10:28 | federico3 | it doesn't and implementing a good poll is not trivial |
| 18:12:26 | dom96 | Arrrr: want me to make another strawpoll? why? |
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| 18:14:41 | Arrrr | To know why the hate towards google |
| 18:14:44 | Arrrr | survey |
| 18:18:54 | dom96 | oh lol |
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| 18:19:14 | dom96 | but then I would need to guess people's reasons |
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| 18:21:43 | federico3 | slightly related, I feel the need for https://stackoverflow.com/questions/156752/new-open-source-project-ideas/519669#519669 |
| 18:25:14 | dom96 | Write one in Nim :) |
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| 18:26:16 | dom96 | Also, I really really want an online Nim compiler |
| 18:26:19 | federico3 | it's very little coding and a lot of html/js stuff |
| 18:26:22 | dom96 | with nimbot integration |
| 18:26:35 | dom96 | maybe you'd be interested in developing that? |
| 18:27:08 | federico3 | to compile from a form and then run the code remotely? |
| 18:27:15 | federico3 | (or in the browser?) |
| 18:28:20 | dom96 | remotely |
| 18:28:30 | dom96 | like try-ruby or try-haskell or Crystal's playground |
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| 18:30:18 | Arrrr | Yes, online nim compiler please |
| 18:30:35 | Arrrr | The one from ideone is so obsolete |
| 18:31:08 | federico3 | I wonder if there's a toolkit to implement that (or just code from other projects to use) |
| 18:32:26 | dom96 | ekarlso made a start on this project https://github.com/ekarlso/nim-playpen |
| 18:35:15 | federico3 | am I missing something or "nim doc2" cannot create docs in a dedicated directory? |
| 18:35:45 | dom96 | that's possible, the compiler was never good with putting generated files where you tell it to |
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| 18:47:57 | cheatfate | dom96, why you want online compiler? |
| 18:48:04 | cheatfate | maybe you want interpreter? |
| 18:48:31 | dom96 | cheatfate: I want both, but an online compiler will do for now. |
| 18:48:47 | dom96 | cheatfate: The Nim compiler is fast enough at compiling to make it worthwhile |
| 18:49:13 | cheatfate | dom96, nim compiler is fast enough but gcc is not |
| 18:49:21 | elrood | tcc? |
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| 18:49:44 | dom96 | cheatfate: I disagree, and there are plenty of alternative C compilers out there. |
| 18:50:32 | cheatfate | dom96, clang is slower... vcc is faster but windows only, the only alternative is icc but nobody test it before |
| 18:51:00 | cheatfate | dom96, and you want to make this service public? or just for private use? |
| 18:51:07 | dom96 | cheatfate: public |
| 18:51:36 | cheatfate | dom96, its very very unsecure idea... |
| 18:51:49 | dom96 | why? |
| 18:51:54 | Arrrr | Is there a way to clear a table? Other than iterating through every key and deleting it |
| 18:52:02 | dom96 | there are plenty of public services which do the same |
| 18:52:16 | cheatfate | have you seen public service with C compiler inside? |
| 18:52:27 | cheatfate | like online c compiler? |
| 18:52:45 | cheatfate | which not gives you executable as download but run it and return results? |
| 18:53:05 | dom96 | there is a C++ IRC bot called geordi which does this: http://www.eelis.net/geordi/ |
| 18:54:07 | dom96 | if it becomes too slow and the demand becomes too high then you can easily implement some logic to rate limit the amount of compilation processes that are activated |
| 18:54:53 | cheatfate | dom96, do you wish to run compiled executable on server or give you as download? |
| 18:55:03 | dom96 | cheatfate: on the server |
| 18:55:08 | dom96 | it will of course be sandboxed |
| 18:56:26 | cheatfate | so why just not use virtual private server and setup nim there? |
| 18:56:36 | cheatfate | why you want to make this as public service? |
| 18:57:37 | Arrrr | Can be attractive for people who have not tried nim yet |
| 18:57:44 | elrood | cheatfate, how about http://webcompiler.cloudapp.net , http://coliru.stacked-crooked.com or the aforementioned http://ideone.com ? |
| 18:59:35 | elrood | probably there are a few more providing an online c compiler with runnable output as a service, these are just the first few that came to mind |
| 19:00:45 | cheatfate | elrood, ok, but why you need new one compiler if you have already ideone.com? |
| 19:01:48 | federico3 | I'm confused.... nim doc foo.nim and nim doc --project foo.nim both produce only one html file (foo.nim imports other local files) |
| 19:01:49 | dom96 | we can integrate a nim tutorial into it for example |
| 19:02:01 | dom96 | similar to try haskell |
| 19:02:06 | cheatfate | I think most wanted thing we need for nim is powerfull debugger |
| 19:03:17 | GangstaCat | I know Go is evil but their tour is one good example for what we could do: https://tour.golang.org/welcome/1 |
| 19:05:19 | cheatfate | if nim to js is stable enough its much better for such tutorials make compilation to js and run it in client's browser |
| 19:05:22 | GangstaCat | read the description here: https://tour.golang.org/welcome/4 |
| 19:05:36 | GangstaCat | they are speaking about the limitations of the playground |
| 19:06:35 | federico3 | ...and nim doc2 crashes out |
| 19:07:02 | dom96 | GangstaCat: indeed, I would love this for Nim. |
| 19:07:14 | dom96 | cheatfate: gdb works well enough |
| 19:07:51 | dom96 | cheatfate: Also, are you implying that we should write a debugger instead of an online compiler? |
| 19:08:20 | dom96 | a debugger is far more challenging than an online compiler. |
| 19:09:15 | cheatfate | i dont think gdb is usable compiler... but ofc you can always use it and what you prefer to use in windows? gdb? |
| 19:09:34 | cheatfate | ** gdb is usable debugger |
| 19:10:52 | cheatfate | dom96, to run tutorials you can easily make nim to js compilation and run it through client's browser without any sandboxes |
| 19:11:36 | dom96 | cheatfate: no, that wouldn't be easy |
| 19:11:46 | cheatfate | dom96, why? |
| 19:12:04 | GangstaCat | where is the interactivity? because the nim sources are already compiled to js |
| 19:12:22 | dom96 | well, actually I'm wrong, it would be easy |
| 19:12:25 | dom96 | but it would feel limited |
| 19:12:29 | GangstaCat | the key here is to make an interactive sandbox where one could modify the code from the tutorial |
| 19:12:44 | dom96 | the JS backend doesn't support nearly as much as the C backend |
| 19:14:03 | cheatfate | GangstaCat, so what the problem with nim to js backend? |
| 19:14:43 | GangstaCat | cheatfate, if I understand correctly, you can only say: here is the nim code, we already compiled it for you to JS, click on the button to run the JS code |
| 19:15:13 | GangstaCat | but what if you want to modify the code or propose an exercice where one should write code |
| 19:15:33 | cheatfate | GangstaCat, please enter your nim code, press run (we compile it to js code, transfer it to client's browser and inject it to current window, and show user results) |
| 19:16:26 | GangstaCat | that could be an idea I guess, I don't really know the limitations of the JS backend but I presume for the basics it is enough? |
| 19:16:48 | dom96 | cheatfate: are you proposing to compile the Nim compiler to JS and run that in the browser too? |
| 19:16:57 | cheatfate | i think sandboxed c compiler is near equal to js |
| 19:17:32 | dom96 | or do you want to send a request to a Nim compiler on the server and for it to compile the Nim code to JS for us then send it back to the browser? |
| 19:17:44 | dom96 | both approaches have problems |
| 19:17:54 | cheatfate | dom96, nope, i propose to send nim code to server run nim2js compilation and then transfer back compiled js code to user, inject and run in user's browser window and capture results |
| 19:18:34 | dom96 | cheatfate: yes, and what happens when the user creates a malicious macro which executes some malicious code at compile-time? |
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| 19:18:47 | dom96 | You will need to sandbox the compiler |
| 19:18:55 | federico3 | ...at least twice |
| 19:20:02 | cheatfate | dom96, ok, but at least my approach would work much faster and eats much less resources |
| 19:20:22 | dom96 | yes, but it would be extremely limited |
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| 19:23:10 | cheatfate | dom96, it would be stimulus to improve js backend |
| 19:23:42 | cheatfate | dom96, and i think it would be enough to run tutorials |
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| 19:24:22 | GangstaCat | +1 |
| 19:27:00 | federico3 | :-/ I cannot import walkDir in a nimscript |
| 19:27:32 | dom96 | if you're going to be sandboxing the compiler then you may as well implement the extra bit more and run the compiled executable in a sandbox too |
| 19:28:28 | dom96 | btw if we can steal Go's or something else's playground then we should |
| 19:29:35 | dom96 | federico3: so question is, are you interested in implementing/setting up something like this? |
| 19:29:50 | federico3 | not right at the moment, I'm busy with few other things |
| 19:30:42 | federico3 | ...but thanks for asking |
| 19:31:23 | dom96 | np |
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| 19:38:37 | federico3 | a nimscript with only #!/usr/bin/env nim \n import os fails with Error: cannot 'importc' variable at compile time |
| 19:43:17 | dom96 | federico3: most modules cannot work at compile-time |
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| 19:45:43 | federico3 | http://hookrace.net/blog/what-makes-nim-practical/ yet in this example os was imported |
| 19:46:23 | federico3 | oh wait, is that thing nimscript or a completely different thing? |
| 19:50:50 | dom96 | looks like you're right |
| 19:51:04 | dom96 | guessing something new was added to the ``os`` module which uses {.importc.} |
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| 19:54:05 | federico3 | maybe travis CI should run a "self-checking" nimscript |
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| 19:57:48 | cheatfate | dom96, os module uses posix module which has a lot of {.importc.} |
| 19:59:00 | dom96 | hrm, then I'm not sure how def- ever ran that script |
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| 20:06:13 | federico3 | how should I get the version from the nimble file? By parsing it or through nimble? |
| 20:10:05 | dom96 | for what purpose are you getting the version from the nimble file? |
| 20:10:19 | federico3 | where else should I get it from? :) |
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| 20:11:21 | dom96 | you would have to import it I guess |
| 20:11:41 | federico3 | 3 applications need to know it: nimble, the project itself, the documentation build scripts |
| 20:12:04 | dom96 | but it depends on a Nimble module |
| 20:12:54 | federico3 | given that we don't want to have multiple copies of the same string |
| 20:18:22 | dom96 | yes, that was the reasoning behind the move to nimscript |
| 20:19:36 | federico3 | is version going away from the nimble file? |
| 20:20:16 | dom96 | no |
| 20:20:25 | dom96 | why would it? |
| 20:20:56 | federico3 | ok, so someone has to parse it - would that be a nimscript file? |
| 20:23:27 | dom96 | you don't need to parse anything |
| 20:23:37 | dom96 | a nimscript file can be evaluated by the compiler |
| 20:25:11 | federico3 | somebody has to parse the .nimble file to extract the version |
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| 20:29:47 | dom96 | I think you should be able to create a `version` module with an exported `pkgVersion` variable, then import that module in your .nimble file |
| 20:30:07 | dom96 | well, maybe call that module `info` or something |
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| 20:31:02 | dom96 | then in your .nimble file write `import info; version = info.version` |
| 20:34:13 | federico3 | IMO the concept of version should exist in the language so that nimble, nim doc, and others can agree on the application version |
| 20:46:12 | dom96 | Perhaps, make a formal RFC and we can discuss it :) |
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| 21:21:53 | enthus1ast | dom96: maybe we could write a simple jupyter kernel |
| 21:22:36 | dom96 | enthus1ast: Never heard of that, looks awesome! |
| 21:23:05 | enthus1ast | i think withouth ipython python would not be that well known |
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| 23:02:23 | gokr | Fiddled with c2nim and managed to wrap http://sophia.systems |
| 23:02:48 | gokr | Now I just need to ... make it more "nice" to use from Nim. |
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