<< 03-02-2014 >>

00:00:44Araquh, it's from Peter Norvig
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00:01:32VarriountAraq: How is that significant?
00:01:36VarriountHi darkf
00:01:44darkfhello
00:02:52AraqVarriount: look him up, he's a genius
00:03:21darkfanyone reckon when the next release will be?
00:04:52Varriountdarkf: When things work.
00:06:49renesacdarkf, you can compile git HEAD to get a bleeding edge nimrod
00:07:23renesacor look at nimbuild: http://build.nimrod-lang.org/
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00:08:27Araqdarkf: my plan is in february or march and then 1.0 in december
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00:08:45darkfAraq: alright, awesome :)
00:08:58darkfI'll probably check out master in the meantime
00:09:09VarriountNuu, devel is better
00:09:31AraqVarriount: not for everybody unfortunately
00:09:36Varriount:<
00:10:23darkfokay, devel is newer :P
00:13:59Varriountrenesac: Hah, those slides are both informative, *and* entertaining!
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00:17:04NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 411d042 Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz [+0 ±1 -0]: Mentions {.exportc.} limits. Refs #826.
00:17:04NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel f693e17 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge pull request #862 from gradha/pr_mentions_exportc_limits... 2 more lines
00:17:51VarriountOdd. There's been all this activity from gradha, and yet he hasn't been on IRC for quite a while.
00:18:21NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 9c6584f Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz [+0 ±1 -0]: Adds utimes() importc to posix module.
00:18:21NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 5ac539f Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge pull request #864 from gradha/pr_adds_posix_utimes... 2 more lines
00:18:56EXetoCwell, there you have it :p
00:20:20Araqbtw Varriount, do you want write access to the repo?
00:20:40Araqyou're doing a good job
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05:57:22VarriountAnyone having trouble connecting to freenode with a non-browser-based client?
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08:12:41reactormonkVarriount, yup
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15:12:27Demosso I found that if I try and compile code like "string[int]" I get an internal compiler error at semtypes.nim line 889, I added in another case to the nearby if-elif block that seems to produce a meangingful warning but I think that that is the incorrect place for it.
15:12:42Demosmeangingful error, not warning
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15:33:35DemosI guess now is not the time to be asking about this, with people unable to connect to freenode
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17:28:37BitPuffinwhat is the technical reason that nimrod can't compile to java?
17:29:10BitPuffindom96: idea: put Araq's presentation in the news section of the website
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17:32:30DemosBitPuffin: I think there are some limitations of the JVM bytecode
17:33:17BitPuffinDemos: yeah it says that it's not expressive enough in the FAQ
17:33:24apotheonBitPuffin: It might have something to do with tail-call optimization.
17:33:25BitPuffinbut how come so many other languages can do it?
17:33:53AraqBitPuffin: we could do it, but it's pointless
17:34:04apotheonThose languages are designed to use the JVM, because a lot of people are in situations where they "must" use the JVM (for bureaucratic reasons, often) and don't want to have to use Java to do it.
17:34:22BitPuffinAraq: interfacing with other JVM stuff, using android native api etc
17:34:26BitPuffinall points for doing it
17:34:32apotheonIt turns out I have this channel in my autojoins.
17:34:33BitPuffinso I wouldn't say pointless
17:34:50BitPuffinbut it's not like I'm dying for it or anything, I was just wondering why it says it's not possible
17:35:05BitPuffinbut I guess the real answer is we don't want to spend time on that shit right now :P
17:35:22BitPuffinapotheon: ruby and python wasn't designed to use the jvm
17:35:29BitPuffinyet you have jruby and jython
17:35:29apotheonSo?
17:35:49apotheonSometimes when you don't design a language for the JVM, it happens to be relatively easy to get it working there.
17:35:49Demosalso TCO is not a very good reason since C does not garentee it
17:36:13apotheonSometimes when you don't design a language for the JVM, it's extremely difficult to get it working there.
17:37:10apotheonWhat . . . does Nimrod just translate a tail recursive function into a C tail recursive function directly?
17:37:32DemosI have no idea
17:37:34apotheon. . . or does it do tail call optimization in the translation step?
17:38:05Demosbut someone mentioned the JVM not having TCO
17:38:15BitPuffinapotheon: probably leaves it up to the C compiler to optimize I'd assume
17:38:23BitPuffinor not sure actually
17:38:31BitPuffinask mr Araqieboi
17:39:04apotheonDemos: If you have to *reimplement* it, that makes it more of a pain in the fourth point of contact. If TCO is already implemented in the C version of Nimrod, that work is already done.
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17:43:04apotheonAnyway, I was just offering a random speculation when I mentioned TCO. It's not like I'm actually a Nimrod developer.
17:43:44Demosheh yeah, same
17:44:31DemosI think it mostally a big job. and native code is nice
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17:45:56apotheonI'm not going to be a happy camper when I have to install a bunch of Java crap on my machine to do work on an Android app, anyway.
17:46:47Demosright, but you would need to do that /anyways/
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17:47:47Demosmaybe a someone could make some kind of bootstrapper that just hands stuff off to nimrod
17:52:37AraqBitPuffin: ruby, python, clojure, scala, lisp ... they all lack value types hence they tend to run easily on the JVM
17:53:14Araqnimrod has value types and 'cast'. These are not supported on the JVM so you have to emulate them and this sucks for performance
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17:53:50Araqand nimrod translates calls into C calls, so you get whatever TCO the C compiler provides
17:54:19Araq(in release mode, in debug mode nothing is tail recursive)
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18:03:08NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 152829e ReneSac [+0 ±1 -0]: Expandeded part about different proc call syntaxes.
18:03:08NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 57e5c0b ReneSac [+0 ±1 -0]: Fix optarg() and added two more tests.... 2 more lines
18:03:08NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 264602f ReneSac [+0 ±1 -0]: Remove spurious import added in the last commit.
18:03:08NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel a15ad34 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±2 -0]: Merge pull request #865 from ReneSac/devel... 2 more lines
18:03:53NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 1e8ffad Araq [+0 ±11 -0]: macro tests almost green
18:03:53NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel c359574 Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: updated todo.txt
18:03:53NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel b5e3809 Araq [+0 ±3 -0]: Merge branch 'devel' of https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod into devel
18:03:53NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel da7a8c4 Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: Merge branch 'devel' of https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod into devel
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18:40:44reactormonk__Araq, https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/pull/865 <- change the manual from the PR and the corresponding tutorial? Got the commit ready.
18:42:54Araqreactormonk__: already pulled it, no idea what you mean
18:43:53reactormonk__Araq, https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/pull/867
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18:57:52VarriountHello apotheon, I haven't heard of you before.
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18:58:01Varriountreactormonk: "Yup" to what?
18:58:37reactormonkVarriount, no idea
18:59:00*Varriount slaps reactormonk around a bit with a large trout.
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19:00:47apotheonVarriount: I haven't been here for a while.
19:02:01reactormonk2014-02-02 23:59:08 Varriount Anyone having trouble connecting to freenode with a non-browser-based client?
19:05:46renesacI'm using X-chat and only now freenode seems stable
19:07:29renesacwhy times.cpuTime() isn't side-effect free?
19:07:58renesacit has something to do with it returning zero on first invocation?
19:08:27Araqhow is taking the time not a side effect?
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19:08:58renesacwell, it just reads... but yeah...
19:13:02reactormonkrenesac, side-effect as in it produces a different output not depending on the input
19:13:13renesacright
19:13:23renesacI stand corrected
19:21:44Varriountrenesac: Freenode was acting freaky last night
19:21:56VarriountI was only able to connect for a bit via webchat
19:22:41VarriountProbably insane script kiddies DDOS'ing the servers
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19:26:23Mat3hi all
19:31:57reactormonkhttp://i.imgur.com/NIaDD4c.png lines in the current repo by person.
19:32:13reactormonkbottom one is log scale.
19:36:35Mat3interesting, ehm; For what is this statistic useful ?
19:37:31VarriountAraq: How is one supposed to use the 'fields' iterator for objects?
19:41:29reactormonkMat3, for lulz.
19:43:45AraqVarriount: for name, value in fialdPairs(myObject):
19:43:51Araq*fieldPairs
19:44:28Mat3reactormonk: sorry, waht mean lulz ?
19:44:42Mat3^what
19:44:42Araqreactormonk: looks like I'm still doing all the work :P
19:44:55AraqMat3: lulz = lol
19:45:29Mat3ah, ok *lol*
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19:55:13VarriountAraq: Is there an easy way to iterator over an object/type, and get the type of the field?
19:55:48VarriountI'm exploring possibilities of auto-loading a cfg file into an object
19:56:11Araqand what do you do with the type after you got it?
19:56:22Araq(it's currently not possible btw)
19:57:20VarriountAraq: Use it to determine the converter proc to use, if neccesary
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19:59:35Araqshould can do this:
20:00:19Araqproc retr(t: typedesc[int], j: PJson): int = j.intVal
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20:00:37Araqproc retr(t: typedesc[string], j: PJson): int = j.strVal
20:01:16Araqfor name, field in obj: field = retr(type(field), config[name])
20:02:57Araq*for name, field in fieldPairs(obj) .... well you get the idea
20:03:22Araqor you can use RTTI, have a look at how marshal.nim does it
20:03:52Araqmarshal.nim predates fieldPairs though and so is the inferior solution
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20:06:21renesacI was looking into the channel logs, and I'm all pro changing Nimrod name to "Rod" in 01/04, with the announcement and explanations written by BitPuffin
20:06:26*Mat3 wouldn't this a wonderful example for advantages of dynamic type systems ?
20:07:02renesaconly if, of course, in the following day the name is changed back to Nimrod after discovering some unfortunate meanings of the new name in some english speaking countries
20:08:08VarriountMat3: Huh?
20:08:23VarriountAlso, why use '/me'?
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20:11:53Mat3because it's a side comment
20:12:29renesacat least use it right
20:13:51*EXetoC wants cake
20:17:02AraqMat3: you can use 'string' for everything and Table[string, string] instead of 'object' and get exactly the same benefits for serialization and the same lack of type checking
20:17:26Araqdynamic typing is a special case of static typing
20:20:14Mat3Araq: It was an ironic statement. However I find your explanation useful for my documentation, thanks
20:21:19Araqalright
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20:40:01Mat3ciao
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20:41:39Varriount|MobileAraq: Are there any plans for something like Python's 'nonlocal' keyword for closures?
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20:42:29AraqVarriount|Mobile: why is that necessary in nimrod? nimrod doesn't conflate assignment with variable definitions and so doesn't have python's scoping problems
20:42:49Varriount|MobileWhat about 'result'?
20:43:08Araq'result' cannot be captured anyway
20:43:30Araqbecause of technical reasons *cough*
20:48:27renesacthis reminds me to make a bug report
20:52:27Varriount|MobileAraq: I'm impressed by the flurry of activity over the past few days. :)
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21:46:33*Varriount is saddened by netsplits
21:47:55Araqyeah, it's pretty bad today
21:48:24AraqVarriount: you're impressed and I'm depressed :-/
21:48:46Araqturns out the bug is essentially unfixable with the current design of the vm ...
21:48:52VarriountAraq: "bug"?
21:49:56Araqtests/macros/tstringsinterp.nim
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21:54:43VarriountAraq: How does the design of the VM prevent the fixing of the bug?
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21:55:49AraqVarriount: sorry, too hard to explain
21:56:31Araqthe invariants in the new vm are driving me crazy and prevent 'var seq' from working
21:56:47Araqwell ... I can fix that but it's pissing me off
21:57:10Araqit's a wonder this old AST based interpreter got so many things right implicitly
21:57:27VarriountAraq: Well, if it helps, I'm getting the connection part of the builder refactored/copied right now.
21:57:55Araqsure, everything helps
22:00:28renesacgood, an old bug I was going to report is already fixed in devel
22:00:35renesac:)
22:01:26*renesac is going through old bugs he had to make proper github issues out of them
22:01:54AraqVarriount: the problem is we have 2 vms with different bugs now and 0.9.4 is long overdue
22:02:40VarriountHm. Then what about a release candidate?
22:02:54renesacor a beta
22:04:07Araqso I consider to revert to the old AST based interpreter
22:04:49EXetoCwell, that's a surprise
22:05:19Araqhowever the old interpreter has *other* bugs ...
22:05:23renesacthe devel is already runing on vm2? or only the vm2 branch?
22:05:34Araqdevel is running on vm2
22:06:43renesacwell, I don't know the relative gravity of the bugs
22:07:03renesac*importance
22:07:52Araqwell it works with an aweful lot of macro code
22:09:06renesacfor users not writing macros, the vm2 is the best?
22:09:26AraqI dunno
22:09:29renesacif yes, just release with it and add a "known bugs" field for advanced users writing macros
22:10:48renesacI don't think it is a good idea to spend time in a vm that will be discarded right after 0.9.4
22:11:58renesacunless you are going to scrap vm2 too and go for a vm3 or something
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22:26:38VarriountAraq: Is it me, or is the builder no longer crashing?
22:27:47VarriountWith the exception of the win64 builder, which is complaining that it can't find a certain file (what file, I don't know.)
22:28:06renesacAraq, why only "int" is implicitly convertible to floats, and not int32, etc?
22:28:19AraqVarriount: yes, I found the cause of the corruption
22:28:30Varriount:O
22:28:41Araqwhich also means I should deprecated TThread[T] or fix it ...
22:29:05Araqrenesac: because integer literals have the type 'int'
22:29:57renesacwell, integers smaller than the float mantissa could also be implicitly convertible...
22:30:42renesacbut that complicates things as "float" differs from plataform to plataform... but at least for float64 I see no problem
22:31:16renesacand I was hopping to find "proc isImplicitlyConvertible" in the compiler to hack...
22:32:24renesac(I want to fix the convertible relation of uint8/byte and ints, etc)
22:32:58VarriountAraq: What was the cause of the corruption?
22:35:11Araqrenesac: the type relations are all conflated and sigmatch.nim implements them
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22:36:17AraqVarriount: there are 2 issues really
22:36:57Araq1. dom96 called joinThread(t); createThread(t) which never occured to me that anybody would try it
22:37:04Araqand the runtime doesn't support
22:37:32Araq2. createThread[Msg](t) is broken when TMsg is a too complex type
22:51:00Araqhey filwit
22:51:13filwithey Araq
22:51:22AraqI fixed some issues with the new vm and would like to know if it fixes your macros
22:51:39filwitdevel?
22:51:43Araqsure
22:51:46filwitor vm2?
22:51:53Araqvm2 is dead
22:51:54filwitokay, let me try something real quick
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22:57:10filwitit still seems to crash in the same place since I last worked on it
22:57:26filwitjust pulled into devel and rebuilt the compiler
22:57:33filwitlet me try one more thing
23:03:28filwityeah, nope. same bug. But i'm looking into it. I have two parts to the project I'm working on, and the macros aren't blocking me quite yet. they work with 0.9.2 right now, and I'm working on structuring the engine runtime out a bit ATM anyways.
23:04:27*Icefoz quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds)
23:06:01filwitbtw, what does the 'unused' vm proc do exactly?
23:06:16filwitwhat does that point to happening in the vm?
23:09:47Araqwell it's just an advanced assert
23:10:30Araqthe code generator doesn't expect the register to be used at this point
23:11:40filwithmm.. okay that helps a little
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23:16:49VarriountHi Icefoz
23:18:13renesac???(???, ???) Error: ambiguous call; both system.$(x: int): string and system.$(x: uint64): string match for: (uint16)
23:18:15renesac:/
23:18:24Araqoh yeah
23:18:29Araqthat's another regression
23:18:38Araqthe missing line information
23:19:34*rndbit quit (*.net *.split)
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23:19:35renesacand what I'm supposed to do with the $ ambiguity?
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23:19:41renesacit is a problem in $ or in sigmatch.nim?
23:20:08renesacthat I'm hacking now
23:20:50Araqwell if both match and that didn't use to be the case, this means you fucked up sigmatch.nim
23:20:57renesacyep
23:21:05filwitAraq: nice, nevermind, whatever you did to the VM fixed two problems, and now my macros compile. Yeah!
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23:21:56filwitAraq: i was forced to use templates instead of {.compileTime.} proc's with 0.9.2 due to a bug, but i changed it to procs and now the code works with the latest changes in devel
23:22:43filwitwell, actually hold on, i must add something back in a make sure it doesn't break
23:22:53filwitcould just be avoiding something
23:23:14filwityeah, damn
23:23:16filwitnevermind
23:23:20filwitsorry, bad report
23:23:49filwitsame bug get's hit (error: not unused), but it works with {.compileTime.} procs now at least like it should
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23:25:24renesacAraq, here what I did: https://gist.github.com/ReneSac/86b2f0db65606c72e5e1
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23:31:59Araqrenesac: var x: byte = 5 # 5 is the 'actual' type, 'byte' is the formal type
23:32:11Araqso you picked the wrong case
23:32:37Araqyou want to modify the case f.kind == tyUint8, tyUint16
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23:34:12filwityou can do comma separated equals? didn't know that..
23:34:27Araqfilwit: no, psuedo code :P
23:34:35filwitah, okay
23:34:44renesacthe error is in var y:int = x + 2
23:35:04renesacyou are saying I should change this line: of tyUInt8: result = handleRange(f, a, tyUInt8, tyUInt8)
23:35:05renesac?
23:35:20AraqI think so
23:35:41dom96filwit: You can do: f.kind in {tyUint8, tyUint16} I think.
23:35:49filwitAraq: ps, thanks for making 'import foo.bar' work with -p:path. That's nice :)
23:36:04filwitdom96: good to know, thanks
23:36:05renesacI thought this line was saying what could be converted INTO uint8
23:38:07renesacotherwise it would be: of tyUInt8: result = handleRange(f, a, tyUInt8, tyUInt64)
23:39:12filwitwtf.. i changed my macros code to try something, and it's telling me lib/core/macros:662 is the problem.. but that's a doc-comment line..
23:39:26renesaclol
23:39:41filwitsame error tho (error: not unused)
23:39:57renesacthe compiler can point errors in the documentation now \o/ (\sarcasm)
23:40:53filwithmm.. i think it has to do with 'else' statements
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23:41:08Araqfilwit: the statement *list* starting on line 662 could be the cause
23:41:16filwitboth errors happen on the first line after an else statement
23:41:38filwitone sec
23:43:25filwitAraq: yep, has something to do with else block statements. Just changed my code back, but put a comment where the compiler was barfing and it reports the same line (aka, the comment)
23:43:45filwitit has something to do with statement lists (like you said) after else statements I think
23:44:17filwiti'll try and isolate the problem further
23:46:03filwitthe last traces are always: genIf, gen, unused, internalError, etc
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23:48:02filwitproblem is in: vmgen:1319
23:48:09BlueProtomanHow do I declare a method for a class?
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23:49:21Araqhi BlueProtoman welcome
23:49:40BlueProtomanHello, Araq.
23:49:57Araqyou either use one of the existing 'class' macros or you declare free standings procs/methods
23:50:14BlueProtomanAre these class macros in the standard library?
23:50:23renesacoh, I didn't know about those class macros
23:50:39renesacI quite like simply declaring procs that takes the object as first argument
23:50:57Araqwe have 2-4 candidates but none made it into the stdlib yet, BlueProtoman
23:50:57filwitBlueProtoman: i don't think any OOP macros are in the stand lib yet, but there are plans to have one there
23:51:07BlueProtomanFreestanding procs it is.
23:51:35BlueProtomanAlso, what's changed between Nimrod 0.8.8 and 0.9.2?
23:52:13renesacBlueProtoman, http://nimrod-lang.org/docs/news.html
23:52:24renesacops
23:52:27renesachttp://nimrod-lang.org/news.html
23:53:07BlueProtomanHm... Ideone only supports 0.8.8...
23:53:51Araqmost people use master or devel from github
23:54:09Araqbut I heard 0.9.2 is also quite stable ...
23:54:21Araqin fact, I have no idea how people got that impression
23:54:52filwitwell, my macro stuff compiles with 0.9.2 and not master or devel, so.. not completely false
23:54:55BlueProtomanYeah, but if I'm going to use Nimrod for my algorithms homework, I have to put the source code on IDEOne.com.
23:55:14BlueProtomanThe TAs/instructors haven't even heard of Nimrod.
23:55:44AraqBlueProtoman: this is changing, I think
23:56:22BlueProtomanAraq: Well, it's not going to change by February 20th. Is there any sort of online IDE that supports the latest Nimrod?
23:56:28filwitbout time for that google analytics *cough* dom96
23:56:32filwit:P
23:56:56AraqBlueProtoman: well my DrDobbs article will be put online on 11th of february
23:57:06Araqso .. .perhasps :P
23:57:19dom96BlueProtoman: compileonline.com might have 0.9.2 IIRC
23:57:27dom96good night
23:57:51BlueProtomandom96: Thanks!
23:58:44filwitany way to get the compiler version from within Nimrod? aka: echo Nimrod_Version ?
23:58:57filwitnevermind, says at the top
23:59:01filwit0.9.0