00:00:44 | Araq | uh, it's from Peter Norvig |
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00:01:32 | Varriount | Araq: How is that significant? |
00:01:36 | Varriount | Hi darkf |
00:01:44 | darkf | hello |
00:02:52 | Araq | Varriount: look him up, he's a genius |
00:03:21 | darkf | anyone reckon when the next release will be? |
00:04:52 | Varriount | darkf: When things work. |
00:06:49 | renesac | darkf, you can compile git HEAD to get a bleeding edge nimrod |
00:07:23 | renesac | or look at nimbuild: http://build.nimrod-lang.org/ |
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00:08:27 | Araq | darkf: my plan is in february or march and then 1.0 in december |
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00:08:45 | darkf | Araq: alright, awesome :) |
00:08:58 | darkf | I'll probably check out master in the meantime |
00:09:09 | Varriount | Nuu, devel is better |
00:09:31 | Araq | Varriount: not for everybody unfortunately |
00:09:36 | Varriount | :< |
00:10:23 | darkf | okay, devel is newer :P |
00:13:59 | Varriount | renesac: Hah, those slides are both informative, *and* entertaining! |
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00:17:04 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel 411d042 Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz [+0 ±1 -0]: Mentions {.exportc.} limits. Refs #826. |
00:17:04 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel f693e17 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge pull request #862 from gradha/pr_mentions_exportc_limits... 2 more lines |
00:17:51 | Varriount | Odd. There's been all this activity from gradha, and yet he hasn't been on IRC for quite a while. |
00:18:21 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel 9c6584f Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz [+0 ±1 -0]: Adds utimes() importc to posix module. |
00:18:21 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel 5ac539f Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge pull request #864 from gradha/pr_adds_posix_utimes... 2 more lines |
00:18:56 | EXetoC | well, there you have it :p |
00:20:20 | Araq | btw Varriount, do you want write access to the repo? |
00:20:40 | Araq | you're doing a good job |
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05:57:22 | Varriount | Anyone having trouble connecting to freenode with a non-browser-based client? |
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08:12:41 | reactormonk | Varriount, yup |
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15:12:27 | Demos | so I found that if I try and compile code like "string[int]" I get an internal compiler error at semtypes.nim line 889, I added in another case to the nearby if-elif block that seems to produce a meangingful warning but I think that that is the incorrect place for it. |
15:12:42 | Demos | meangingful error, not warning |
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15:33:35 | Demos | I guess now is not the time to be asking about this, with people unable to connect to freenode |
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17:28:37 | BitPuffin | what is the technical reason that nimrod can't compile to java? |
17:29:10 | BitPuffin | dom96: idea: put Araq's presentation in the news section of the website |
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17:32:30 | Demos | BitPuffin: I think there are some limitations of the JVM bytecode |
17:33:17 | BitPuffin | Demos: yeah it says that it's not expressive enough in the FAQ |
17:33:24 | apotheon | BitPuffin: It might have something to do with tail-call optimization. |
17:33:25 | BitPuffin | but how come so many other languages can do it? |
17:33:53 | Araq | BitPuffin: we could do it, but it's pointless |
17:34:04 | apotheon | Those languages are designed to use the JVM, because a lot of people are in situations where they "must" use the JVM (for bureaucratic reasons, often) and don't want to have to use Java to do it. |
17:34:22 | BitPuffin | Araq: interfacing with other JVM stuff, using android native api etc |
17:34:26 | BitPuffin | all points for doing it |
17:34:32 | apotheon | It turns out I have this channel in my autojoins. |
17:34:33 | BitPuffin | so I wouldn't say pointless |
17:34:50 | BitPuffin | but it's not like I'm dying for it or anything, I was just wondering why it says it's not possible |
17:35:05 | BitPuffin | but I guess the real answer is we don't want to spend time on that shit right now :P |
17:35:22 | BitPuffin | apotheon: ruby and python wasn't designed to use the jvm |
17:35:29 | BitPuffin | yet you have jruby and jython |
17:35:29 | apotheon | So? |
17:35:49 | apotheon | Sometimes when you don't design a language for the JVM, it happens to be relatively easy to get it working there. |
17:35:49 | Demos | also TCO is not a very good reason since C does not garentee it |
17:36:13 | apotheon | Sometimes when you don't design a language for the JVM, it's extremely difficult to get it working there. |
17:37:10 | apotheon | What . . . does Nimrod just translate a tail recursive function into a C tail recursive function directly? |
17:37:32 | Demos | I have no idea |
17:37:34 | apotheon | . . . or does it do tail call optimization in the translation step? |
17:38:05 | Demos | but someone mentioned the JVM not having TCO |
17:38:15 | BitPuffin | apotheon: probably leaves it up to the C compiler to optimize I'd assume |
17:38:23 | BitPuffin | or not sure actually |
17:38:31 | BitPuffin | ask mr Araqieboi |
17:39:04 | apotheon | Demos: If you have to *reimplement* it, that makes it more of a pain in the fourth point of contact. If TCO is already implemented in the C version of Nimrod, that work is already done. |
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17:43:04 | apotheon | Anyway, I was just offering a random speculation when I mentioned TCO. It's not like I'm actually a Nimrod developer. |
17:43:44 | Demos | heh yeah, same |
17:44:31 | Demos | I think it mostally a big job. and native code is nice |
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17:45:56 | apotheon | I'm not going to be a happy camper when I have to install a bunch of Java crap on my machine to do work on an Android app, anyway. |
17:46:47 | Demos | right, but you would need to do that /anyways/ |
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17:47:47 | Demos | maybe a someone could make some kind of bootstrapper that just hands stuff off to nimrod |
17:52:37 | Araq | BitPuffin: ruby, python, clojure, scala, lisp ... they all lack value types hence they tend to run easily on the JVM |
17:53:14 | Araq | nimrod has value types and 'cast'. These are not supported on the JVM so you have to emulate them and this sucks for performance |
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17:53:50 | Araq | and nimrod translates calls into C calls, so you get whatever TCO the C compiler provides |
17:54:19 | Araq | (in release mode, in debug mode nothing is tail recursive) |
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18:03:08 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel 152829e ReneSac [+0 ±1 -0]: Expandeded part about different proc call syntaxes. |
18:03:08 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel 57e5c0b ReneSac [+0 ±1 -0]: Fix optarg() and added two more tests.... 2 more lines |
18:03:08 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel 264602f ReneSac [+0 ±1 -0]: Remove spurious import added in the last commit. |
18:03:08 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel a15ad34 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±2 -0]: Merge pull request #865 from ReneSac/devel... 2 more lines |
18:03:53 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel 1e8ffad Araq [+0 ±11 -0]: macro tests almost green |
18:03:53 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel c359574 Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: updated todo.txt |
18:03:53 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel b5e3809 Araq [+0 ±3 -0]: Merge branch 'devel' of https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod into devel |
18:03:53 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel da7a8c4 Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: Merge branch 'devel' of https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod into devel |
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18:40:44 | reactormonk__ | Araq, https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/pull/865 <- change the manual from the PR and the corresponding tutorial? Got the commit ready. |
18:42:54 | Araq | reactormonk__: already pulled it, no idea what you mean |
18:43:53 | reactormonk__ | Araq, https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/pull/867 |
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18:57:52 | Varriount | Hello apotheon, I haven't heard of you before. |
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18:58:01 | Varriount | reactormonk: "Yup" to what? |
18:58:37 | reactormonk | Varriount, no idea |
18:59:00 | * | Varriount slaps reactormonk around a bit with a large trout. |
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19:00:47 | apotheon | Varriount: I haven't been here for a while. |
19:02:01 | reactormonk | 2014-02-02 23:59:08 Varriount Anyone having trouble connecting to freenode with a non-browser-based client? |
19:05:46 | renesac | I'm using X-chat and only now freenode seems stable |
19:07:29 | renesac | why times.cpuTime() isn't side-effect free? |
19:07:58 | renesac | it has something to do with it returning zero on first invocation? |
19:08:27 | Araq | how is taking the time not a side effect? |
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19:08:58 | renesac | well, it just reads... but yeah... |
19:13:02 | reactormonk | renesac, side-effect as in it produces a different output not depending on the input |
19:13:13 | renesac | right |
19:13:23 | renesac | I stand corrected |
19:21:44 | Varriount | renesac: Freenode was acting freaky last night |
19:21:56 | Varriount | I was only able to connect for a bit via webchat |
19:22:41 | Varriount | Probably insane script kiddies DDOS'ing the servers |
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19:26:23 | Mat3 | hi all |
19:31:57 | reactormonk | http://i.imgur.com/NIaDD4c.png lines in the current repo by person. |
19:32:13 | reactormonk | bottom one is log scale. |
19:36:35 | Mat3 | interesting, ehm; For what is this statistic useful ? |
19:37:31 | Varriount | Araq: How is one supposed to use the 'fields' iterator for objects? |
19:41:29 | reactormonk | Mat3, for lulz. |
19:43:45 | Araq | Varriount: for name, value in fialdPairs(myObject): |
19:43:51 | Araq | *fieldPairs |
19:44:28 | Mat3 | reactormonk: sorry, waht mean lulz ? |
19:44:42 | Mat3 | ^what |
19:44:42 | Araq | reactormonk: looks like I'm still doing all the work :P |
19:44:55 | Araq | Mat3: lulz = lol |
19:45:29 | Mat3 | ah, ok *lol* |
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19:55:13 | Varriount | Araq: Is there an easy way to iterator over an object/type, and get the type of the field? |
19:55:48 | Varriount | I'm exploring possibilities of auto-loading a cfg file into an object |
19:56:11 | Araq | and what do you do with the type after you got it? |
19:56:22 | Araq | (it's currently not possible btw) |
19:57:20 | Varriount | Araq: Use it to determine the converter proc to use, if neccesary |
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19:59:35 | Araq | should can do this: |
20:00:19 | Araq | proc retr(t: typedesc[int], j: PJson): int = j.intVal |
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20:00:37 | Araq | proc retr(t: typedesc[string], j: PJson): int = j.strVal |
20:01:16 | Araq | for name, field in obj: field = retr(type(field), config[name]) |
20:02:57 | Araq | *for name, field in fieldPairs(obj) .... well you get the idea |
20:03:22 | Araq | or you can use RTTI, have a look at how marshal.nim does it |
20:03:52 | Araq | marshal.nim predates fieldPairs though and so is the inferior solution |
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20:06:21 | renesac | I was looking into the channel logs, and I'm all pro changing Nimrod name to "Rod" in 01/04, with the announcement and explanations written by BitPuffin |
20:06:26 | * | Mat3 wouldn't this a wonderful example for advantages of dynamic type systems ? |
20:07:02 | renesac | only if, of course, in the following day the name is changed back to Nimrod after discovering some unfortunate meanings of the new name in some english speaking countries |
20:08:08 | Varriount | Mat3: Huh? |
20:08:23 | Varriount | Also, why use '/me'? |
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20:11:53 | Mat3 | because it's a side comment |
20:12:29 | renesac | at least use it right |
20:13:51 | * | EXetoC wants cake |
20:17:02 | Araq | Mat3: you can use 'string' for everything and Table[string, string] instead of 'object' and get exactly the same benefits for serialization and the same lack of type checking |
20:17:26 | Araq | dynamic typing is a special case of static typing |
20:20:14 | Mat3 | Araq: It was an ironic statement. However I find your explanation useful for my documentation, thanks |
20:21:19 | Araq | alright |
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20:40:01 | Mat3 | ciao |
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20:41:39 | Varriount|Mobile | Araq: Are there any plans for something like Python's 'nonlocal' keyword for closures? |
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20:42:29 | Araq | Varriount|Mobile: why is that necessary in nimrod? nimrod doesn't conflate assignment with variable definitions and so doesn't have python's scoping problems |
20:42:49 | Varriount|Mobile | What about 'result'? |
20:43:08 | Araq | 'result' cannot be captured anyway |
20:43:30 | Araq | because of technical reasons *cough* |
20:48:27 | renesac | this reminds me to make a bug report |
20:52:27 | Varriount|Mobile | Araq: I'm impressed by the flurry of activity over the past few days. :) |
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21:46:33 | * | Varriount is saddened by netsplits |
21:47:55 | Araq | yeah, it's pretty bad today |
21:48:24 | Araq | Varriount: you're impressed and I'm depressed :-/ |
21:48:46 | Araq | turns out the bug is essentially unfixable with the current design of the vm ... |
21:48:52 | Varriount | Araq: "bug"? |
21:49:56 | Araq | tests/macros/tstringsinterp.nim |
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21:54:43 | Varriount | Araq: How does the design of the VM prevent the fixing of the bug? |
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21:55:49 | Araq | Varriount: sorry, too hard to explain |
21:56:31 | Araq | the invariants in the new vm are driving me crazy and prevent 'var seq' from working |
21:56:47 | Araq | well ... I can fix that but it's pissing me off |
21:57:10 | Araq | it's a wonder this old AST based interpreter got so many things right implicitly |
21:57:27 | Varriount | Araq: Well, if it helps, I'm getting the connection part of the builder refactored/copied right now. |
21:57:55 | Araq | sure, everything helps |
22:00:28 | renesac | good, an old bug I was going to report is already fixed in devel |
22:00:35 | renesac | :) |
22:01:26 | * | renesac is going through old bugs he had to make proper github issues out of them |
22:01:54 | Araq | Varriount: the problem is we have 2 vms with different bugs now and 0.9.4 is long overdue |
22:02:40 | Varriount | Hm. Then what about a release candidate? |
22:02:54 | renesac | or a beta |
22:04:07 | Araq | so I consider to revert to the old AST based interpreter |
22:04:49 | EXetoC | well, that's a surprise |
22:05:19 | Araq | however the old interpreter has *other* bugs ... |
22:05:23 | renesac | the devel is already runing on vm2? or only the vm2 branch? |
22:05:34 | Araq | devel is running on vm2 |
22:06:43 | renesac | well, I don't know the relative gravity of the bugs |
22:07:03 | renesac | *importance |
22:07:52 | Araq | well it works with an aweful lot of macro code |
22:09:06 | renesac | for users not writing macros, the vm2 is the best? |
22:09:26 | Araq | I dunno |
22:09:29 | renesac | if yes, just release with it and add a "known bugs" field for advanced users writing macros |
22:10:48 | renesac | I don't think it is a good idea to spend time in a vm that will be discarded right after 0.9.4 |
22:11:58 | renesac | unless you are going to scrap vm2 too and go for a vm3 or something |
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22:26:38 | Varriount | Araq: Is it me, or is the builder no longer crashing? |
22:27:47 | Varriount | With the exception of the win64 builder, which is complaining that it can't find a certain file (what file, I don't know.) |
22:28:06 | renesac | Araq, why only "int" is implicitly convertible to floats, and not int32, etc? |
22:28:19 | Araq | Varriount: yes, I found the cause of the corruption |
22:28:30 | Varriount | :O |
22:28:41 | Araq | which also means I should deprecated TThread[T] or fix it ... |
22:29:05 | Araq | renesac: because integer literals have the type 'int' |
22:29:57 | renesac | well, integers smaller than the float mantissa could also be implicitly convertible... |
22:30:42 | renesac | but that complicates things as "float" differs from plataform to plataform... but at least for float64 I see no problem |
22:31:16 | renesac | and I was hopping to find "proc isImplicitlyConvertible" in the compiler to hack... |
22:32:24 | renesac | (I want to fix the convertible relation of uint8/byte and ints, etc) |
22:32:58 | Varriount | Araq: What was the cause of the corruption? |
22:35:11 | Araq | renesac: the type relations are all conflated and sigmatch.nim implements them |
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22:36:17 | Araq | Varriount: there are 2 issues really |
22:36:57 | Araq | 1. dom96 called joinThread(t); createThread(t) which never occured to me that anybody would try it |
22:37:04 | Araq | and the runtime doesn't support |
22:37:32 | Araq | 2. createThread[Msg](t) is broken when TMsg is a too complex type |
22:51:00 | Araq | hey filwit |
22:51:13 | filwit | hey Araq |
22:51:22 | Araq | I fixed some issues with the new vm and would like to know if it fixes your macros |
22:51:39 | filwit | devel? |
22:51:43 | Araq | sure |
22:51:46 | filwit | or vm2? |
22:51:53 | Araq | vm2 is dead |
22:51:54 | filwit | okay, let me try something real quick |
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22:57:10 | filwit | it still seems to crash in the same place since I last worked on it |
22:57:26 | filwit | just pulled into devel and rebuilt the compiler |
22:57:33 | filwit | let me try one more thing |
23:03:28 | filwit | yeah, nope. same bug. But i'm looking into it. I have two parts to the project I'm working on, and the macros aren't blocking me quite yet. they work with 0.9.2 right now, and I'm working on structuring the engine runtime out a bit ATM anyways. |
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23:06:01 | filwit | btw, what does the 'unused' vm proc do exactly? |
23:06:16 | filwit | what does that point to happening in the vm? |
23:09:47 | Araq | well it's just an advanced assert |
23:10:30 | Araq | the code generator doesn't expect the register to be used at this point |
23:11:40 | filwit | hmm.. okay that helps a little |
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23:16:49 | Varriount | Hi Icefoz |
23:18:13 | renesac | ???(???, ???) Error: ambiguous call; both system.$(x: int): string and system.$(x: uint64): string match for: (uint16) |
23:18:15 | renesac | :/ |
23:18:24 | Araq | oh yeah |
23:18:29 | Araq | that's another regression |
23:18:38 | Araq | the missing line information |
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23:19:35 | renesac | and what I'm supposed to do with the $ ambiguity? |
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23:19:41 | renesac | it is a problem in $ or in sigmatch.nim? |
23:20:08 | renesac | that I'm hacking now |
23:20:50 | Araq | well if both match and that didn't use to be the case, this means you fucked up sigmatch.nim |
23:20:57 | renesac | yep |
23:21:05 | filwit | Araq: nice, nevermind, whatever you did to the VM fixed two problems, and now my macros compile. Yeah! |
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23:21:56 | filwit | Araq: i was forced to use templates instead of {.compileTime.} proc's with 0.9.2 due to a bug, but i changed it to procs and now the code works with the latest changes in devel |
23:22:43 | filwit | well, actually hold on, i must add something back in a make sure it doesn't break |
23:22:53 | filwit | could just be avoiding something |
23:23:14 | filwit | yeah, damn |
23:23:16 | filwit | nevermind |
23:23:20 | filwit | sorry, bad report |
23:23:49 | filwit | same bug get's hit (error: not unused), but it works with {.compileTime.} procs now at least like it should |
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23:25:24 | renesac | Araq, here what I did: https://gist.github.com/ReneSac/86b2f0db65606c72e5e1 |
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23:31:59 | Araq | renesac: var x: byte = 5 # 5 is the 'actual' type, 'byte' is the formal type |
23:32:11 | Araq | so you picked the wrong case |
23:32:37 | Araq | you want to modify the case f.kind == tyUint8, tyUint16 |
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23:34:12 | filwit | you can do comma separated equals? didn't know that.. |
23:34:27 | Araq | filwit: no, psuedo code :P |
23:34:35 | filwit | ah, okay |
23:34:44 | renesac | the error is in var y:int = x + 2 |
23:35:04 | renesac | you are saying I should change this line: of tyUInt8: result = handleRange(f, a, tyUInt8, tyUInt8) |
23:35:05 | renesac | ? |
23:35:20 | Araq | I think so |
23:35:41 | dom96 | filwit: You can do: f.kind in {tyUint8, tyUint16} I think. |
23:35:49 | filwit | Araq: ps, thanks for making 'import foo.bar' work with -p:path. That's nice :) |
23:36:04 | filwit | dom96: good to know, thanks |
23:36:05 | renesac | I thought this line was saying what could be converted INTO uint8 |
23:38:07 | renesac | otherwise it would be: of tyUInt8: result = handleRange(f, a, tyUInt8, tyUInt64) |
23:39:12 | filwit | wtf.. i changed my macros code to try something, and it's telling me lib/core/macros:662 is the problem.. but that's a doc-comment line.. |
23:39:26 | renesac | lol |
23:39:41 | filwit | same error tho (error: not unused) |
23:39:57 | renesac | the compiler can point errors in the documentation now \o/ (\sarcasm) |
23:40:53 | filwit | hmm.. i think it has to do with 'else' statements |
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23:41:08 | Araq | filwit: the statement *list* starting on line 662 could be the cause |
23:41:16 | filwit | both errors happen on the first line after an else statement |
23:41:38 | filwit | one sec |
23:43:25 | filwit | Araq: yep, has something to do with else block statements. Just changed my code back, but put a comment where the compiler was barfing and it reports the same line (aka, the comment) |
23:43:45 | filwit | it has something to do with statement lists (like you said) after else statements I think |
23:44:17 | filwit | i'll try and isolate the problem further |
23:46:03 | filwit | the last traces are always: genIf, gen, unused, internalError, etc |
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23:48:02 | filwit | problem is in: vmgen:1319 |
23:48:09 | BlueProtoman | How do I declare a method for a class? |
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23:49:21 | Araq | hi BlueProtoman welcome |
23:49:40 | BlueProtoman | Hello, Araq. |
23:49:57 | Araq | you either use one of the existing 'class' macros or you declare free standings procs/methods |
23:50:14 | BlueProtoman | Are these class macros in the standard library? |
23:50:23 | renesac | oh, I didn't know about those class macros |
23:50:39 | renesac | I quite like simply declaring procs that takes the object as first argument |
23:50:57 | Araq | we have 2-4 candidates but none made it into the stdlib yet, BlueProtoman |
23:50:57 | filwit | BlueProtoman: i don't think any OOP macros are in the stand lib yet, but there are plans to have one there |
23:51:07 | BlueProtoman | Freestanding procs it is. |
23:51:35 | BlueProtoman | Also, what's changed between Nimrod 0.8.8 and 0.9.2? |
23:52:13 | renesac | BlueProtoman, http://nimrod-lang.org/docs/news.html |
23:52:24 | renesac | ops |
23:52:27 | renesac | http://nimrod-lang.org/news.html |
23:53:07 | BlueProtoman | Hm... Ideone only supports 0.8.8... |
23:53:51 | Araq | most people use master or devel from github |
23:54:09 | Araq | but I heard 0.9.2 is also quite stable ... |
23:54:21 | Araq | in fact, I have no idea how people got that impression |
23:54:52 | filwit | well, my macro stuff compiles with 0.9.2 and not master or devel, so.. not completely false |
23:54:55 | BlueProtoman | Yeah, but if I'm going to use Nimrod for my algorithms homework, I have to put the source code on IDEOne.com. |
23:55:14 | BlueProtoman | The TAs/instructors haven't even heard of Nimrod. |
23:55:44 | Araq | BlueProtoman: this is changing, I think |
23:56:22 | BlueProtoman | Araq: Well, it's not going to change by February 20th. Is there any sort of online IDE that supports the latest Nimrod? |
23:56:28 | filwit | bout time for that google analytics *cough* dom96 |
23:56:32 | filwit | :P |
23:56:56 | Araq | BlueProtoman: well my DrDobbs article will be put online on 11th of february |
23:57:06 | Araq | so .. .perhasps :P |
23:57:19 | dom96 | BlueProtoman: compileonline.com might have 0.9.2 IIRC |
23:57:27 | dom96 | good night |
23:57:51 | BlueProtoman | dom96: Thanks! |
23:58:44 | filwit | any way to get the compiler version from within Nimrod? aka: echo Nimrod_Version ? |
23:58:57 | filwit | nevermind, says at the top |
23:59:01 | filwit | 0.9.0 |