<< 03-08-2015 >>

00:00:39Araqit doesn't matter you need to implement a new magic or perhaps re-use an existing magic that then in vm.nim exposes/sets n.comment where n: PNode in the compiler
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00:12:19Varriountalpaca: I like your nickname.
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00:31:16alpacaAraq: yep, that wasnt too hard.
00:31:37AraqPR ready?
00:32:05alpacanope. 3:31 am (msk), no pr at such time.
00:33:16Araqstill impressive if you managed it in this short amount of time
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00:47:57alpacaAraq: btw, what is a proper way for handling bootstraping for such case (compiler vs stdlib versions)?
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00:48:21Varriountonionhammer: Unfortunately, your ctrl+click binding prevents multiple selections in sublime text.
00:50:50Araqalpaca: usually it just works, you get a warning "unknown magic" but nothing worse happens
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00:55:49Araqor you can wrap it in a 'when not defined(booting)' section
00:55:55Araqgood night
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01:48:34onionhammerVarriount oh, change the mouse binding
01:48:54onionhammermaybe... alt click?
01:48:56onionhammeridk
01:50:01onionhammerVarriount i've told you before, i have no pride in my python code; my python experience = this project :P
02:01:49onionhammeranyway, what's wrong with static methods?
02:14:12Varriountonionhammer: Well, for one thing, it's a needless performance penalty.
02:14:53onionhammerVarriount usually its the other way around
02:15:04onionhammerstatic lookup vs dynamic
02:15:08Varriountonionhammer: But this is Python, an interpreted language.
02:16:12VarriountAlso, static method doesn't mean static lookup (insofar as anything *is* static in Python)
02:16:52Varriountonionhammer: https://julien.danjou.info/blog/2013/guide-python-static-class-abstract-methods
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02:19:05Varriountonionhammer: alt+a would be a good hotkey.
02:20:12onionhammerit already has a hotkey
02:20:16onionhammersuper+i
02:20:37onionhammerVarriount i realize that python is a dynamically typed language
02:21:09onionhammeryou can choose a key + mousebutton though
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09:42:16coffepotis there an 'in place' case insensitive string comparison somewhere? I don't really want to use .toLower/.toUpper to create new strings if I can avoid it
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09:51:13Araqcoffepot: strutils.cmpIgnoreCase doesn't allocate
09:51:24Araqunicode has it too iirc
09:52:41coffepotcool, that was one i was looking at. Ideally I wanted a "sameStr" that's case insensitive but honestly I am guilty of micro optimising here :) cmpIgnoreCase it is
09:52:52coffepotthanks
09:53:54coffepotlooking at the code for cmpIgnoreCase I needn't have worried about optimising lol
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10:50:51hiothe truth is that Nim is a HOBBY langauge
10:50:56hioit will never compete with c#
10:53:39bogenso, the places nim is used on production systems in workplaces, those production systems are hobby systems?
10:54:36hiobogen: who uses nim in production?
10:57:52bogenthere are several people on this forum that do. I use nim at work far more than I use it at home. I'm used nim quite a bit this year, most of that for work.
10:59:12hiobogen: doesnt your manager tell you to stop using a language that isn't company policy?
10:59:25hioother people wont be able to pick up your code easily
11:00:24coffepotthe distinction between what you call a hobby language and "competing with c#" is simply "number of users". Languages are used in business when they best suit the task, where pros and cons are considered, not when they have enough users.
11:02:10bogenThe only C# language I'd consider is Boo, but that is not very well maintaned. Nim has more momentum now than Boo as far as I can tell, and that is growing.
11:02:27coffepotwhilst c# has been around for years and is pushed my MS, it doesn't make it more "right" or "better for business", it is simply more popular
11:03:00bogenI can find a lot more examples online on doing stuff in Nim than in Boo, plus Boo (and C# are deficient in many areas language wise)
11:03:46bogenPHP is poupular. Javascript is popular. Are they good languages?
11:05:55coffepothio, I've noticed you have a somewhat contentious approach in here - the other day you came in and announced all languages without an IDE are rubbish, and when pointed to IDE support for Nim you stopped commenting. Are you looking for reasons not to pick up Nim because you're worried it's not going to "hit it big"?
11:06:09bogenhio, 14 years ago when I was using Linux in the workplace people said the same thing. Including co-workers. Now Linux is the mainstream in most places I work.
11:06:41bogenwell, even going back much long than 14 years
11:07:00hiocoffepot: yes i have exactly that fear
11:07:29coffepotthat's completely fair enough, especially if you're thinking of pushing a case to use it at work
11:08:14bogenthere is no pushing of C# where I work
11:09:33coffepotI'd argue that it really depends on your use case whether to commit to Nim in the workplace. I'm looking at using Nim at work but I had to make sure it did what I needed to do before hand (in my case I needed SQL server access, so I wrote an ODBC library which is very near release)
11:10:44coffepotWhat I would say though, is that if you look on the support page http://nim-lang.org/support.html Araq does take paid submissions for bug fixing or features, so to me the alleviated some of the concern I'd have if I needed to get something working and there was a bug in the language
11:16:19bogenI'm not really concerned about Nim not making it big. most mainstream languages are severely lacking in some major areas. Some of the viable alternatiaves (Rust, Go, D) have a lot of design baggage that will stifle them later on. (not they won't be useful for many people). For me Nim has what they all lack, decent meta programming support. D has some, but it does not scale, and is severely crippled compared to Nim.
11:17:21coffepotNim is moving forward at a great pace and I think more or less does everything you need in a basic commercial setting. It had decent templating support for webapps, anything non-visual is a breeze and the Nim syntax and stdlib will take care of you. I'd say it is not up to C# in GUI support yet, but I've seen some projects that may help this
11:17:43AraqI'm only concerned about the number of open bugs, so I am beginning to change plans slightly
11:20:07coffepottbh the only bugs I've encountered are with metaprogramming, and only when I've been doing something naive
11:20:50coffepotthe basic language seems very solid
11:22:12AraqI think we'll focus on getting the breaking changes implemented and then declare the language stable but the implementation merely "solid"
11:22:31coffepottotally agree with you bogen - the big modern languages are all lacking in some way that I feel Nim has addressed really well, so it does seem to be the general purpose language of the future, at least for me. I've just started getting into metaprogramming and it's just amazing
11:23:39coffepotAraq, what are the general breaking changes coming up?
11:24:45Araq- closure iterators will be less wierd (we hope)
11:24:57Araq- immediate templates and macros need to be deprecated
11:25:02coffepotcool, not something I'm using explicitly :3
11:25:16Araq- tables.mget will be tables.[]
11:25:38coffepotare you removing .mitems too?
11:25:43hiobogen: what design baggage does go have?
11:25:47Araqno
11:26:19coffepotfair enough, how are immediate templates gonna be done? I do use those quite a bit
11:26:37Araq- multi methods need more annotations but I'm not sure what exactly to do about these
11:26:54bogenAraq: in regards to immediate templates/macros being deprecated, does the associated functionality go away? (var/const/let/etc injection)
11:27:13Araqcoffepot: a template that only takes 'untyped' params is "immediate"-like already
11:27:53coffepotwhat about if you take typed and stmt/expr, can you still make it immediate?
11:28:30Araq'expr' is only an alias for 'typed' anyway and 'stmt' needs to go
11:28:41Araqer an alias for 'untyped'
11:29:04Araqwell 'stmt' is an alias for 'typed'
11:29:13Araqwhich makes no sense really ... ;-)
11:30:05coffepotbut we'll still be able to do the equivilent of template(things: stmt) to do blocks tho I assume
11:30:24bogenhio: I don't see go as every having decent compile time execution or function meta programming support. As far as design baggage, well, go is not really that revolutionarily. It is just a pascal/algol with a modern C/C# like syntax and some contemporay features but that is just my opinion based on my playing with Go for a while a few years ago.
11:30:50coffepotwell pascal has generics *ducks*
11:31:31bogen:)
11:32:59hiook but at least go compiles quickly
11:33:38coffepotbut nim compiles faster, faster even than pascal AFAICT (which is pretty cool)
11:34:29Araqnah, pascal compiles MUCH faster
11:34:40Araqespecially since they have working symbol files
11:35:03coffepotah fair enough, I must admit I have bug small programs in nim. Yeah pascal is crazy fast
11:35:06hiofor example i downloaded nim, tried to compile the hello world example and get this: unhandled exception: The system cannot find the file specified
11:35:08coffepot* but
11:35:10hio(on windows)
11:35:20Araqbut fast compile times are not everything
11:35:59Araqhio: upcoming 0.11.4 will tell you in a more friendly way that it cannot find GCC
11:36:25hiook
11:37:52Araqwhich the installer supports installing for you ... but I'm positive that eventually you will read something that we put onto your screen.
11:39:59Araqunfortunately most computers still lack a cudgel-like device we could program
11:46:55hioAraq: did you just call me a bitch?
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11:56:00coffepotwat
12:08:01yglukhovHi All. Does anyone know where Future type is defined?
12:11:58def-yglukhov: asyncdispatch module
12:12:39yglukhovAh, there it is!
12:12:45yglukhovthanks =)
12:29:04alpacais https://github.com/jhspetersson (owner of idea-nim repository) here?
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12:32:49Araqhio: no, it was a mild form of RTFM
12:35:22hioAraq: the installer should tell me that a specific component is REQUIRED.
12:36:16coffepotthe installer does include gcc, it's probably just your path needs pointing to it
12:36:34Araqthe installer can also update your path ...
12:37:15coffepoti remember having to fiddle with the patch to point to gcc for some reason
12:37:42Araqwell the installer assumes that a user specific PATH env var exists
12:38:01Araqwhich for reasons that completely escape me is not the case for every windows installation
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12:57:06coffepotdoes anyone have any thoughts on how this looks for accessing fields by name? https://gist.github.com/coffeepots/fdf1b85ee2148f7adfd1
12:57:35coffepotgeneral feedback welcome
12:57:46coffepotah, forgot to mention: this is odbc interface so far
13:01:52Araqyou can overload `.` to get foo.bar syntax instead of foo["bar"]
13:02:17AraqI'm not sure I like that feature though
13:02:21coffepotyou mean so i could have qry.fields.strcol to access it direct?
13:02:30Araqyeah
13:02:45coffepotnice feature but yeah not sure if that'd be good for queries
13:03:20coffepottemping though
13:03:24coffepottempting
13:05:44coffepoti think I'm gonna try doing both - ["str"] and overloading '.', see how it looks
13:06:38coffepoti suppose technically, it would be possible to check parameter names at compile time (when statements are const) :-o Though, I don't think I'll be doing that for now
13:07:01coffepotthat would be pretty sweet though...
13:07:49Araqthe unicode middot should be parsed as '.' perhaps
13:07:58Araqbut people are against unicode
13:08:43coffepotcurrently this supports unicode by converting to widestring and back again for sql server, which doesn't support utf8 :/
13:09:05coffepothowever, it works when you have funky codepage conflicts so i guess there's that!
13:09:46Araqcoffepot: OnO is working on an ORM
13:09:57Araqso things are statically checked
13:10:54coffepotnice, didn't know he was including that in his ORM. I think there'll still be a place for 'raw' db library wrappers though for DBs that aren't built with ORM in mind
13:11:20coffepotat least, from what OnO was saying a while back
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13:43:18coffepotIf I have module A, B and C, and module A includes unit B, which includes unit C, should module A be able to access private symbols in module C?
13:43:41coffepotunit = module
13:44:29Araqfor 'include', yes. for 'import', no.
13:45:19coffepothmm I thought so, cheers
13:48:30FedeOmotois there something similar to proc forward declaration but for types?
13:48:55Araqno, workaround is to use subtyping
13:52:39FedeOmotothnx Araq!
13:53:48FedeOmotoand... any workaround for this?:
13:54:02FedeOmoto[fomoto@terminus compiler]$ cat a.nim && echo "----" && cat b.nim
13:54:02FedeOmotoimport b
13:54:02FedeOmototype A = object
13:54:02FedeOmoto a: B
13:54:02FedeOmoto----
13:54:03FedeOmotoimport a
13:54:05FedeOmototype B = object
13:54:09FedeOmoto a: A
13:57:44Araqas I said, you need to use subtyping
13:58:00Araqtype A = object
13:58:09Araq a: RootRef
13:58:23Araqtype B = object of RootObj
13:58:27Araq a: A
13:58:43Araqlet a = A()
13:59:12Araq(ref B)(a.a) # convert to proper underlying type
13:59:40Araqbtw your example requires an infinite amount of memory for a variable of type A (or B)
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14:14:47strcmp1where can i buy infinite sticks of ram?
14:15:23coffepotfrom the fractal ram reseller
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14:17:33strcmp1what realm should i visit to meet him
14:18:27coffepotHe's inbetween left and right, up and down, and forward and backwards
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14:20:44coffepotwouldn't the above code work fine by using refs instead?
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14:23:40FedeOmotoAraq: that was a really bad example, sorry, my code is in fact something like this:
14:23:41FedeOmoto[fomoto@terminus compiler]$ cat a.nim && echo "---" && cat b.nim
14:23:42FedeOmotoimport b
14:23:42FedeOmototype A = ref object of RootObj
14:23:42FedeOmototype SubA = ref object of A
14:23:42FedeOmoto field: B
14:23:44FedeOmoto---
14:23:46FedeOmotoimport a
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14:23:48FedeOmototype B = ref object of A
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15:43:55drewsremnotfowl, is entoody fixed?
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15:49:21notfowldrewsrem no idea
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17:21:59samlhi vbtt
17:22:51Cryptotoadany built in method to check if a pid is running or to execute a program and wait for completion? (Windows)
17:27:23Jehan_Am I the only one or is the macros.nim totally broken for anyone else (head of devel branch)?
17:28:58def-Jehan_: doesn't compile for me either
17:29:38Jehan_def-: It's this weird iterator definition: iterator children*(n: NimNode): NimNode {.inline.} = items
17:31:07reactormonkJehan_, looks totally fine with me
17:31:28Jehan_reactormonk: lib/core/macros.nim(727, 54) Error: value of type 'None' has to be discarded
17:32:11Jehan_I've never seen an iterator where the body is just the name of another iterator and it doesn't seem to work.
17:33:20def-it's this commit: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/commit/04dc46b1aa76da615d175fecc9c6cc1bc5075f18
17:33:42Jehan_def-: Yup.
17:34:07Jehan_I mean, it'd be nice if one could declare one iterator to be an alias for another, but it doesn't seem to be supported.
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17:37:27notfowloh cool children is items now?
17:38:33dom96ja
17:38:46dom96Cryptotoad: don't think one exists
17:38:56dom96You can do the latter
17:39:08Cryptotoadthat would actually be preferable
17:39:14Cryptotoadis there a method like spawnl?
17:39:16dom96shit, did I break code.
17:39:17dom96Sorry
17:42:34dom96fixed
17:42:37dom96bbl
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18:50:25drewsremIs there a bigint in the stdlib I'm not seeing?
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18:51:21dom96drewsrem: nope, there is a nimble package though
18:51:23def-drewsrem: nope: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/2725
18:51:51FedeOmotodrewsrem: you can use this one: http://fedeomoto.github.io/bignum/
18:52:27drewsremI guess if I'd want to make my own implementation, how'd you even pass a giant const? int-literals are always passed as an int even to templates/macros right?
18:52:46drewsremFedeOmoto, ty
18:53:24FedeOmotosorry, wrong url
18:53:25drewsremmgm BigInt reads from a string
18:53:37drewsremmhm*
18:53:42FedeOmotothis one: https://github.com/FedeOmoto/bignum
18:54:14FedeOmotodre
18:54:22dom96drewsrem: If you pass an int literal then that int literal will be static, so you should be able to assign it to a const for example
18:56:50drewsremdom96, I meant that int literals always seem to be restricted to some valid range, so if you want to construct a new hypothetical infinitely sized bigint, you need to construct them out of a string it seems?
18:57:16dom96drewsrem: oh, good point. Hrm.
18:58:17drewsremdom96, I was also thinking about fixed-point types and same issue is here when you pass a float-literal it will be converted to a float first
18:58:43dom96I think Araq wants bigint in the stdlib so he will introduce it as a type in the compiler.
18:58:54dom96First we need a good bigint library though
18:58:58dom96And it can use string for now
18:59:20drewsremsure, I was just wondering if I was overlooking something
18:59:46dom96In case you want to write your own, take a look at the existing ones first and consider making them better.
19:00:06dom96Not sure what their status is, I think some are pretty much complete.
19:00:12dom96def- knows more I'm sure
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20:13:42renesacthere is a wrapper for gmp, if you need high performance in your bigints
20:15:56renesacand yes, you normally use a string if you want to initialize a bignum using a big number
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20:16:11renesacthat isn't already a bignum
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20:48:56NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 202cc48 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: The async macro now supports transforming multiple async procs.... 10 more lines
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20:57:50Sahnvouris there some kind of `zip` proc/iterator/macro ?
20:58:08Sahnvouroh, just found it nvm.
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21:00:01alpaca__about bignum literals: there is no big deal to construct them from string literals at compile time so there will be only binary representation in objfile
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21:03:54Sahnvourwhy's zip returning a new seq and not an iterator ? wouldn't it be more versatile ?
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