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| 00:16:38 | zacharycarter[m] | krux02: what about multiple modules though? I'm unable to reproduce the scenario without defining datatypes and it's a lot to put into a single gist |
| 00:17:08 | zacharycarter[m] | I need to make the playground better - so we can share entire projects with it |
| 00:17:39 | zacharycarter[m] | I was hoping to use the wasm experiment I was working on to re-do the playground, but I guess I'll go back to my karax / Nim JS implementation |
| 00:18:33 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @zacharycarter You don't want to inadvertently end up writing an ide though... |
| 00:19:31 | zacharycarter[m] | rayman22201: I was going to use monaco editor which is used in https://webassembly.studio/ |
| 00:19:38 | zacharycarter[m] | well I'm already using it in that project |
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| 00:19:55 | zacharycarter[m] | I stopped working on it temporarily to explore the Nim wasm web framework thing |
| 00:20:08 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> that looks like a full ide! lol |
| 00:20:16 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> or at least an editor |
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| 00:20:20 | zacharycarter[m] | it's basically the web version of vscode |
| 00:20:32 | zacharycarter[m] | https://microsoft.github.io/monaco-editor/ |
| 00:20:45 | zacharycarter[m] | we |
| 00:20:58 | zacharycarter[m] | we'd lose mobile support for the playground - but I'm not concerned with that |
| 00:21:21 | zacharycarter[m] | I can gracefully degrade to the current experience for mobile |
| 00:21:26 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> I like simplicity of the current nim playground because I test snippets so easily. This heavy weight editor would lose that :-/ |
| 00:23:08 | zacharycarter[m] | well maybe then we keep both |
| 00:23:11 | zacharycarter[m] | or have both rather |
| 00:23:23 | zacharycarter[m] | because I long for a web ide for nim for sharing large(er) examples |
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| 00:23:38 | zacharycarter[m] | it's tough to replicate certain things in a single file / gist |
| 00:24:09 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> hrmmm. Part of me thinks, at that point you probably need a full git repo anyway. But I see where you are coming from |
| 00:24:28 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Having both is probably a good idea. Both use cases seem useful |
| 00:24:49 | zacharycarter[m] | I'll try to merge both experiences in whatever new version of the playground I implement |
| 00:25:02 | zacharycarter[m] | I already have a project with karax that's pretty far along |
| 00:25:03 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Also this comes from a place of love, because I really <3 nim-playground. So thank you :-) |
| 00:25:15 | zacharycarter[m] | :D thank you! |
| 00:25:25 | zacharycarter[m] | btw - are you behind raylib? |
| 00:25:43 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> I wish. no I am not unfortunately |
| 00:26:04 | zacharycarter[m] | ah okay - I think just the ray in your name confused my brain into associating you with the guy that ran / runs that project |
| 00:26:18 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Nope, just another random ray |
| 00:26:41 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> raylib is a cool project though |
| 00:26:54 | zacharycarter[m] | it def is - zengine before I added all the wasm crap was basically raylib |
| 00:26:57 | zacharycarter[m] | ported to Nim |
| 00:27:01 | zacharycarter[m] | minus some features, and plus some others |
| 00:27:45 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> cool! |
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| 00:28:32 | zacharycarter[m] | yeah - but Nim needs a more advanced game engine with an editor - so that's what I'm trying to build now |
| 00:28:42 | zacharycarter[m] | Nim also needs a lot of way more practical projects |
| 00:28:53 | zacharycarter[m] | but it's tough to have motivation for those when your day job is to build practical stuff |
| 00:29:25 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> lol. I know the feeling... |
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| 00:49:03 | zacharycarter[m] | this error / these errors definitely seem to be related to some regression with tuple |
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| 00:53:50 | zacharycarter[m] | but I'm also wrong like 90% of the time - going to look at this again in the morning and try to come up with a smaller example - I have no idea what's wrong š |
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| 02:08:05 | zacharycarter[m] | https://github.com/zacharycarter/example02 - meh I dunno how to reduce these examples |
| 02:08:23 | zacharycarter[m] | I can't re-create them w/o a lot of boilerplate code to the point where I might as well share the repo |
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| 02:16:58 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> What's the test data store Nim plays with? |
| 02:17:04 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> best* |
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| 02:17:40 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> the one who concerns IPFS, around? |
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| 03:53:10 | FromGitter | <Varriount> What do you mean by data store? |
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| 03:57:57 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> ipfs uses levelDB. |
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| 03:58:58 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> Can Nim plays with levelDB? |
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| 04:18:03 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> levelDB vs Redis , levelDB vs sqlLite |
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| 04:24:31 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Well, I definitely know Nim has SQLite bindings. |
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| 04:53:55 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> Is there any news mentioned migrate from levelDB to SQLite |
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| 04:54:47 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> Sqlite4 is supposed to be faster than LevelDB. |
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| 04:59:25 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> > My understanding is that LevelDB is no longer maintained, and that the LevelDB community has rallied around a fork called RocksDB. Both LevelDB and RocksDB are not ACID compliant. |
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| 05:34:17 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> our binding is for sqlite3 right? |
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| 05:38:13 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> oh, SQLite 4 is not released. |
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| 07:41:46 | FromGitter | <Bennyelg> (https://files.gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim/HPiS/image.png) |
| 07:42:03 | FromGitter | <Bennyelg> Im trying to intergrate general.nim to vue jsscript methods but it dosent work |
| 07:42:04 | FromGitter | <Bennyelg> :( |
| 07:43:04 | FromGitter | <Bennyelg> ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b6407883bca002dcbb6e3cf] |
| 07:43:27 | FromGitter | <Bennyelg> ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b64079d3a5a2d2f99e88541] |
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| 07:55:17 | FromGitter | <codenoid> hi nimmer |
| 07:55:42 | FromGitter | <codenoid> what is the best video-streaming protocol nowdays |
| 07:55:58 | FromGitter | <codenoid> rtmp is using flash, and i don't like it |
| 07:56:09 | FromGitter | <codenoid> *that can played in browser |
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| 08:06:37 | leorize | codenoid: http? |
| 08:06:49 | FromGitter | <mratsim> no |
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| 08:06:51 | FromGitter | <mratsim> HLS |
| 08:06:55 | FromGitter | <codenoid> no |
| 08:07:47 | FromGitter | <codenoid> and the data will be used for face recog, |
| 08:07:52 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I remember when Twitch required an HLS browser and I had trouble to pass Chrome as one |
| 08:09:12 | leorize | there's also DASH |
| 08:10:12 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @gogolxdong RocksDB is a fork of levels, nim wrapper available here: https://github.com/status-im/nim-rocksdb |
| 08:10:28 | FromGitter | <mratsim> of leveldb* by Facebook |
| 08:10:48 | leorize | codenoid: if you want a stream that's playable in browser, either use an http-based one such as HLS or DASH, or make an js player for whatever other protocol you might use |
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| 08:14:17 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> helpful, I'm also trying sqlite, don't know how to choose. |
| 08:16:19 | FromGitter | <mratsim> in Nimbus we use both ;), sqlite for embedded (maybe Rocksdblite in the future weāll see) and RocksDB for desktops |
| 08:16:46 | FromGitter | <mratsim> If you want to abstract over both: https://github.com/status-im/nimbus/tree/master/nimbus/db/backends |
| 08:18:51 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> Ethereum 2.0 Sharding Client ,do you know FOMO3D |
| 08:18:59 | FromGitter | <mratsim> yeah of course |
| 08:19:53 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> Have you taken part in ? |
| 08:19:56 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @codenoid for face recognition, be sure to check this: https://github.com/ageitgey/face_recognition itās based on dlib which is C++ deep learning primitive library |
| 08:20:21 | FromGitter | <mratsim> No, but I followed the thread in ethresearch: https://github.com/ageitgey/face_recognition |
| 08:20:39 | FromGitter | <mratsim> sorry: https://ethresear.ch/t/alert-will-fomo3d-destroy-ethereum/2630/46 |
| 08:21:15 | FromGitter | <codenoid> thank you nimmer |
| 08:21:40 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @gogolxdong we announced Nimbus here: https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/4097 and there: https://our.status.im/introducing-nimbus-an/ |
| 08:22:19 | livcd | mratsim: I see coffeepot works with you. Is he still maintaining the odbc ? |
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| 08:22:48 | FromGitter | <mratsim> The Ethereum Foundation is exploring libp2p usage, if we use it we will probably build libp2p/IPFS in pure Nim |
| 08:23:18 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @livcd raise an issue, that just means that he works on Nim all day ;) |
| 08:23:48 | livcd | mratsim: somebody already raised it :)...just wanted to know if it's still maintained or not |
| 08:24:14 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Iāll ping him |
| 08:28:46 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> there is a MVP to do which is consisted of kadmelia p2p , merkle DAG and compatitable git protocol client. |
| 08:29:28 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> looking through libp2p of IPFS. |
| 08:32:21 | FromGitter | <mratsim> we have Kademlia: https://github.com/status-im/nim-eth-p2p/blob/master/eth_p2p/kademlia.nim |
| 08:34:44 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> save works. |
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| 08:38:20 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> hope there is a system to inform what people need, like the announcement of nimbus, or an existing kademlia lib of Nim. Information flow stops somewhere then relays by people like you. |
| 08:40:16 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Nimbus made front page of hacker News, and r/ethereum |
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| 08:42:40 | livcd | gogolxdong:well haxe has haxe roundup but i dont think Nim has enough content / updates for smh like that (well not even haxe has i guess) |
| 08:43:04 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> There is more fragments left behind,even Nim stops somewhere chinese people hardly reach. |
| 08:43:53 | FromGitter | <coffeepots> @livcd Hiya, I will do an update for odbc over the weekend :) Got caught up in other projects! |
| 08:43:55 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> but I'm sure it's needed by many . |
| 08:44:34 | livcd | gogolxdong: surprisingly some good libs were done by some taiwanese folks |
| 08:45:19 | livcd | coffeepots: thanks! i have some pet projects that rely on MSSQl but nothing that needs to be immediately fixed :-) |
| 08:45:44 | FromGitter | <coffeepots> Actually I keep meaning to rewrite it as it was written a few years ago and hopefully I've got better at Nim since then ;) |
| 08:48:02 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> Taiwan is predominant in electronics as well as some extent in software over mainland. |
| 08:48:51 | livcd | gogolxdong: mainland is active in Go ecosystem |
| 08:49:22 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> true, I used Go for couple of years. |
| 08:49:59 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> ecosystem of mainland is unique , because of culture and policy. |
| 08:50:53 | FromGitter | <mratsim> The Ethereum Foundation has several taiwanese, and Status has a active Chinese community, so we only need a spark to bring Nim to China :P |
| 08:51:40 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I would say the main issue is timezone, getting help while not in European timezone is a bit hard |
| 08:51:52 | livcd | mratsim: then if i can advise you you need to get in touch with ECUG |
| 08:52:12 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> agree. |
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| 08:52:58 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Erlang China user Group? |
| 08:53:17 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> language and timezone. |
| 08:55:32 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> especially have difficulty in describing complicated scenario . |
| 08:55:32 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Since we sell Status as decentralised WeChat, we have a lot of attention there. |
| 08:55:46 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Btw there is an open position if you know people interested: https://status.im/open-positions.html?gh_jid=1241854 |
| 08:55:47 | livcd | it changed to Effective Cloud User Group and it popularized Go in China |
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| 08:57:20 | livcd | there was a dropbox clone that was built with Go + other high profile companies picked up Go and attended the conference organized by ECUG |
| 08:57:40 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> interesting. |
| 08:58:14 | livcd | well these chinese companies handle insane traffic |
| 08:58:29 | livcd | on the other hand they are often shady and malevolent |
| 08:59:05 | livcd | there was an uproar about blog from the Qihoo360 guys |
| 08:59:15 | livcd | blog hosted on golang.org |
| 08:59:37 | livcd | (Qihoo360 is defacto malware and very much despised in China) |
| 08:59:39 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> you know a lot about China. |
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| 09:18:53 | norok2 | hi all |
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| 09:20:55 | norok2 | can anyone point me out to some explanation behind the design choices of have case / underscore insensitive identifiers and the default import everything behavior? |
| 09:21:15 | norok2 | *have -> having |
| 09:22:20 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Case insensitive identifiers: ā ā 1) allow everyone to choosse between snake_case and camelCase ā 2) prevents bug because someone called his proc quit() and another Quit() ā but Araq now thinks it was a mistake [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b641ecb5d1362758b279617] |
| 09:23:58 | FromGitter | <mratsim> import everything ā ā 1) Nim is not Python, we have types, and even if the module it came from is annotated, we still have to check the implementation there anyway + we have tools (nimsuggest) to give us the definition ā 2) you can use "from module import nilā to get Python behaviour [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b641f29cf8ab4758a989185] |
| 09:25:29 | FromGitter | <mratsim> If you want to do digging, check the RFCs on Github and on the forum itās a theme that comes regularly. There are other old discussion on irc but itās a bit harder to find |
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| 09:32:32 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @livcd @gogolxdong I passed the ECUG suggestion to our community managers, thanks for the suggestion :) |
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| 09:36:27 | livcd | welcome :) |
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| 09:40:22 | norok2 | @mratsim thanks! (1) I'd agree with today's Araq, any chance this is going to get removed? (2) my question was more: why is that the default than why is that possible |
| 09:41:19 | FromGitter | <mratsim> 1) I think the ship has sailed. ā 2) Why not? |
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| 09:47:00 | norok2 | 2) because fully qualified and univocal identifiers make code easier to read |
| 09:47:49 | leorize | norok2: we also have custom operator support, no one would want to write module.`+` |
| 09:47:49 | norok2 | I thought there was some efficiency penalty in `from module import nil` |
| 09:48:45 | norok2 | @leorize Agreed, but I am not saying this should be enforced, just not the default |
| 09:49:10 | leorize | custom operators are everywhere, ofc it has to be the default |
| 09:49:28 | FromGitter | <mratsim> not true, less word to read is easier to read |
| 09:50:36 | FromGitter | <mratsim> there is no penalty for "from module import nilā, it only impacts ergonomics |
| 09:51:18 | norok2 | @mratsim less word to read is not always easier to read, maybe it is *faster* to read.. clearly there must be some balance |
| 09:53:50 | FromGitter | <mratsim> yes of course, but the current default works also in practice. |
| 09:54:19 | norok2 | but increases the stepness of the learning curve for newcomers |
| 09:54:35 | leorize | why? |
| 09:54:46 | FromGitter | <mratsim> with reasonable variable names and proc names there is usually no doubt of where things are coming from |
| 09:55:26 | norok2 | for every import you have, you should know what is actually bringing to have a reasonable chance of understanding subsequent code |
| 09:56:15 | FromGitter | <mratsim> people have to pick proper names for their procedures and variables |
| 09:56:58 | FromGitter | <mratsim> import sequtils ā let a = @[1, 2, 3, 4] ā echo sequtils.xyz(a) ā ā wouldnāt really help anyway [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b6426ea6d45752f98828e15] |
| 09:58:05 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Nim shouldnāt be the police, it should be an enabler. |
| 09:58:14 | norok2 | it would help the readers on where to look for immediately |
| 09:58:53 | leorize | it can also be inferred with proper naming |
| 09:59:01 | norok2 | Nim is a trade-off, as more or less everything |
| 10:00:43 | FromGitter | <Vindaar> norok2: it might help newcomers, yes. But only because they are not used to how Nim works yet. But for everyone used to Nim it would just increase visual noise by a lot. And one of the most important points for me: it would make chaining of procs unreadable |
| 10:01:14 | FromGitter | <mratsim> It will help newcomers coming from Python. |
| 10:01:20 | FromGitter | <Vindaar> indeed |
| 10:01:36 | FromGitter | <mratsim> For me itās like being new to Windows, mac, Linux, or coming with muscle reflex to another OS |
| 10:01:49 | FromGitter | <mratsim> the hardest thing is to unlearn reflexes |
| 10:02:42 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Nim can certainly learn more from other language but there are also a lot of languages that donāt need to prefix everything and people get by |
| 10:02:43 | norok2 | chaining like in UFCS? |
| 10:03:07 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Especially Haskell, all those weird symbols but people complain about Monads not about modules |
| 10:06:15 | FromGitter | <Vindaar> yes, random stuff like: ā ā ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b6429178eb2d52fde3c9041] |
| 10:10:23 | norok2 | it may sound trivial to you, but I wouldn't know where to find `mapIt` and hence compile those two line : |
| 10:10:27 | norok2 | :'D |
| 10:11:22 | FromGitter | <Vindaar> yes, and that's a valid point. But once you realize there's https://nim-lang.org/docs/theindex.html and you just start Ctrl-f on that page (plus use the normal search bar in the docs) you're all set |
| 10:12:13 | FromGitter | <Vindaar> and if you look at code outside of the standard library, you can always use nimsuggest / rely on good old grep to find the definition of things you don't know :) |
| 10:12:32 | leorize | or nimgrep :) |
| 10:12:37 | FromGitter | <Vindaar> hehe |
| 10:12:56 | norok2 | sure enough, I found that already |
| 10:14:17 | FromGitter | <mratsim> In Haskell, they solve finding function with Hoogle: https://www.haskell.org/hoogle/, you type a name or a signature and it will find all that matches. Nimble could have a Noogle. |
| 10:17:00 | norok2 | which certainly more user-friendly than trying to use nimsuggest from command line |
| 10:21:21 | norok2 | regarding the Python thing, that is not really true for newcomers from Python |
| 10:21:34 | norok2 | it's just the way most people would think |
| 10:21:58 | norok2 | it's much easier to digest something one box at a time |
| 10:22:17 | norok2 | and when there is something you don't know |
| 10:22:42 | norok2 | it's good to know which box it comes from |
| 10:23:22 | norok2 | that's why namespaces / modules can be easier to read than without them |
| 10:23:47 | norok2 | I am not saying this should be used in the stdlib or in some specialized lib either |
| 10:24:02 | norok2 | but in examples and other learning material |
| 10:24:08 | norok2 | hell, yes! |
| 10:25:02 | FromGitter | <Bennyelg> I'm writing javascript part code and I want to make some nice editor which support adding piace of programming codes when writing comments or posts , such python nim etc along with all the <b> tags and all the known html tagss |
| 10:25:05 | FromGitter | <Bennyelg> any familiar ? |
| 10:31:08 | FromGitter | <endes123321_gitlab> Hi, Im trying to compile a code for a microcontroller and I get this error "Error: system module needs 'echoBinSafe'". I think is because in some part of the code call an echo, but I don't know where, How I can see where or I can discard the echo function or something like that?? |
| 10:34:06 | leorize | endes123321_gitlab: you can instead implement your own |
| 10:34:20 | leorize | here's the stdlib implementation https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/dfe3f160227dadd5d93bd6c697106e71899eccce/lib/system/sysio.nim#L419 |
| 10:35:36 | FromGitter | <endes123321_gitlab> But how?? |
| 10:36:03 | FromGitter | <endes123321_gitlab> yes, i want to do that, but idont know how |
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| 10:46:06 | norok2 | is there any code beautifier specific to nim? |
| 10:51:43 | FromGitter | <endes123321_gitlab> thanks @leorize, I figured out that I put the function echoBinSafe on the end of the file and the echo calls are on the start of the file xD |
| 10:52:58 | FromGitter | <Yardanico> @norok2 there's `nimpretty` but it still has quite a lot of bugs (mostly with comment handling) |
| 10:56:06 | norok2 | @Yardanico thanks |
| 10:56:30 | norok2 | anybody has experience in setting uncrustify for nim / has some config to share? |
| 10:57:16 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @endes123321_gitlab this might help as well: https://hookrace.net/blog/nim-binary-size/ |
| 10:58:29 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Some how Rust 1.28 announcement: https://blog.rust-lang.org/2018/08/02/Rust-1.28.html felt like reading Araqās destructors blog post ā ā 1) Custom per type memory allocator ā 2) optimized option type [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b643555945df30dc14a101a] |
| 11:00:44 | FromGitter | <mratsim> btw, we can inherit from ptr object? :O https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/wiki/Destructors#allocators |
| 11:12:45 | FromDiscord | <awr> i assume that means the underlying object is inheritable and not the pointer itself |
| 11:13:15 | FromDiscord | <awr> considering `ref object of RootObj` is already a common idiom... |
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| 13:21:11 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> Any ideas for a workaround for this issue https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/8524 ? |
| 13:27:35 | FromGitter | <mratsim> does `static[Slice]` work? |
| 13:28:20 | FromGitter | <mratsim> if yes you can static assert s.T is int |
| 13:29:28 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I really think static should become `x: static int`, instead of `x: static[int]` |
| 13:30:29 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> nope :-( |
| 13:32:32 | FromGitter | <mratsim> ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b645970cf8ab4758a99ef12] |
| 13:33:31 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> Nice, thank you! |
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| 13:34:35 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I guess another one tagged for v1 |
| 13:35:38 | FromGitter | <mratsim> by the way, this should be tagged closure + generics + regression: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/8432 |
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| 13:49:51 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> Done |
| 13:49:57 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> no closure tag |
| 13:50:06 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> maybe lambda lifting? |
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| 13:52:24 | dom96 | My goodness there is so many issues |
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| 14:00:41 | stefanos82 | which is a good thing dom96 |
| 14:00:53 | stefanos82 | it means people actually use it quite seriously |
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| 14:03:06 | dom96 | It's a bad thing for me because I have to sift through all these notifications :( |
| 14:03:39 | FromDiscord | <awr> is there a macro to see what a formatted stmt list NimNode would be? |
| 14:04:16 | FromDiscord | <awr> in other words the opposite of astGenRepr() |
| 14:05:10 | FromGitter | <Bennyelg> ```code paste, see link``` |
| 14:07:00 | stefanos82 | dom96: again it's good; it helps you cultivate more patience lol |
| 14:07:06 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @awr, expandMacros? |
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| 14:07:51 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @andreaferretti yeah probably lambda lifting |
| 14:07:54 | FromDiscord | <awr> maybe, will try it |
| 14:08:30 | FromGitter | <mratsim> not that it expands at compile time, but also includes it in your code, so if you donāt want it in your code you should add a when false |
| 14:08:33 | FromGitter | <mratsim> note* |
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| 14:20:16 | FromDiscord | <awr> oh i was just thinking it would be useful to check if my macro code was formatted properly |
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| 14:42:42 | m712 | what is the equalivent of a packed struct in nim? |
| 14:45:35 | FromDiscord | <awr> what do you mean? |
| 14:45:47 | FromDiscord | <awr> nim has the {.packed.} pragma iirc |
| 14:46:54 | FromDiscord | <awr> along with {.pure.} and bitfields you have just about all the utilities you need for packing structs the way you do in C |
| 14:50:08 | FromGitter | <mratsim> in pure Nim, set of enums are preferred to bitfields for packed structures |
| 14:50:53 | FromGitter | <mratsim> in-memory representation should be the same. |
| 14:51:40 | m712 | thanks |
| 14:51:56 | FromDiscord | <awr> ofc that all depends on what you're doing |
| 14:52:13 | FromDiscord | <awr> if the object is nim only yeah go with sets |
| 14:52:19 | m712 | i'm reimplementing UUIDs as an exercise |
| 14:52:23 | FromDiscord | <awr> if you're talking with C use bitfields if necessary |
| 14:52:25 | m712 | from the RFC |
| 15:02:45 | m712 | i wonder what would happen if I ran c2nim on the linux kernel source |
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| 15:26:29 | FromGitter | <mratsim> probably something about line not ending by ā;ā at a \#define |
| 15:39:25 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> @dom96 it looks like lately there are a lot of proposals to change things as opposed to just bugs |
| 15:39:44 | dom96 | yeah |
| 15:40:40 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> this generates a lot of discussion, even a little too much |
| 15:40:50 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> makes the issue tracker become like the forum |
| 15:41:13 | dom96 | yeah, I think it's time to encourage people to move these discussions to the forum |
| 15:41:30 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> agreed |
| 15:42:21 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> dom96: The problem with forum is that I don't get notification when someone replies. |
| 15:42:27 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> Am I missing out on some setting? |
| 15:42:56 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> With GitHub Issues I can easily Subscribe to issues/discussions I am interested in |
| 15:43:33 | dom96 | Nope, forum doesn't support notifications |
| 15:43:43 | dom96 | In some ways that's a good thing |
| 15:43:57 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> I am pretty sure I would have missed out replying to some helpful comment on one of my posts on the forum |
| 15:43:58 | dom96 | For discussions which are important enough people will ensure to check for updates to the relevant thread |
| 15:44:20 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> dom96: It's not practical. |
| 15:44:38 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> What if I posted a question and someone replies with some useful info to that after a month? |
| 15:44:48 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> I cannot track *all* of my old posts |
| 15:45:18 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> If someone doesn't like notifications, they can get an option to disable them. |
| 15:47:57 | dom96 | For Nim feature discussions this isn't likely to happen or matter |
| 15:48:11 | dom96 | After a month has passed the feature will either have been rejected, accepted or forgotten |
| 15:48:26 | dom96 | For all of our sanity, sometimes it's good if things naturally fade away |
| 15:48:36 | FromGitter | <tim-st> shouldnt the type definition `tuple[string, int]` work too? instead only `(string, int)` or named works |
| 15:49:26 | krux02 | dom96, I wonder how you managed to write you big book about Nim. |
| 15:50:03 | krux02 | writing things that are that big, I can.t do it at all. I currently have to write my master thesis and I am struggling with the amout of content. I just loose the overview of everything |
| 15:50:17 | krux02 | I don't know if I already said something or not |
| 15:50:30 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> krux02: Write in Org mode :D You can easily collapse/rearrange thigns |
| 15:50:32 | krux02 | then I end up repeating the same things over and over again and other important parts are missing |
| 15:50:42 | krux02 | I am writing in org mode |
| 15:50:53 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> woo!! š |
| 15:50:54 | krux02 | buth e collapsing thing isn't helping |
| 15:51:02 | dom96 | krux02: I feel your pain. |
| 15:51:28 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I donāt want to āWatchā Nim because I will get flooded by discussions |
| 15:51:37 | krux02 | btw, I writing in org mode against the explicit statement of my supervisor to write everything directly in Latex |
| 15:51:51 | dom96 | The way my workflow worked was: come up with a table of contents, write each chapter in a separate file, read over chapter, send chapter to editor, start working on next chapter |
| 15:52:00 | krux02 | but I can just export to latex and then include my document in the original template |
| 15:52:20 | dom96 | My editor(s) gave some pretty good feedback along the way |
| 15:52:57 | dom96 | mratsim: I'm watching Nim :( |
| 15:53:07 | FromDiscord | <awr> doesn't org have a latex export |
| 15:53:20 | krux02 | ok, I have a supervisor, so that workflow could work |
| 15:53:32 | krux02 | awr: I do use the latex export |
| 15:53:33 | FromDiscord | <awr> oh you already said that |
| 15:53:37 | krux02 | yes |
| 15:54:02 | krux02 | dom96, thanks for the hint |
| 15:54:37 | FromDiscord | <awr> i used to write all my course notes in org but i feel like going back to pen and paper would be more effective for me |
| 15:54:44 | krux02 | any other hints and structured workflow? |
| 15:55:23 | krux02 | awr: I used to sleep in the lectures and then learn by course notes that were uploaded online. |
| 15:55:49 | FromDiscord | <awr> lol |
| 15:56:37 | FromDiscord | <awr> i am so fucking glad i figured out what was slowing down my emacs |
| 15:56:49 | krux02 | what did slow it down? |
| 15:57:09 | FromDiscord | <awr> fucking eldoc randomly pauses the whole program at random intervals for like periods of 5-10 seconds |
| 15:57:45 | FromDiscord | <awr> i never use it anyway |
| 15:58:06 | krux02 | eldoc in nim? |
| 15:58:10 | krux02 | or generally? |
| 15:58:21 | FromDiscord | <awr> in general |
| 15:58:38 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> I am interested in discussing this (eldoc), but it's getting really off-topic here |
| 15:58:44 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> see you guys in #emacs? |
| 15:58:58 | krux02 | yes |
| 15:59:18 | krux02 | I am in #emacs |
| 16:03:55 | dom96 | krux02: Hrm, create a git repo for your thesis if you haven't already :) |
| 16:04:09 | dom96 | Commit every time you're taking a break from writing |
| 16:04:25 | dom96 | or you've modified something significant in previous chapters |
| 16:04:43 | dom96 | Also, every time you're getting back into writing read the last chapter or at least the last section |
| 16:04:50 | dom96 | correct as you're reading |
| 16:04:54 | dom96 | it's a good way to get into the flow |
| 16:09:53 | livcd | /r/nim right now has more users online than /r/crystal #uselessStatistics |
| 16:12:07 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> livcd But do we beat Rust? |
| 16:12:30 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> dom96 can we use the donated funds to place ads to flood Rust-Lang communities with Rust Gamers? |
| 16:12:51 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> I BELIEVE IN A FUTURE FOR NIM, AND TO CREATE ONE, WE MUST ACKNOWLEDGE THIS IS WAR |
| 16:12:59 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> :P I'll stop now. |
| 16:13:35 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> BTW. Not even close to the Rust subreddit :( |
| 16:15:53 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Lol |
| 16:18:51 | livcd | at a first glance /r/crystal looks more active but then again crystal does not really have a forum (besides the google group thingie) and most of Nim's discussion happens on the nim forum |
| 16:19:33 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Most Nim discussions happen in RFCs and PRs now :P |
| 16:19:49 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @dom96 regarding feature discussions polluting the git repo, maybe a slightly more formal rfc process is needed? Propose rfc on the forum, and then only if it is approved it is put in the github tracker? We have to convince Araq to play along lol. |
| 16:20:14 | FromGitter | <mratsim> look at that: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues?q=sort%3Acomments-desc |
| 16:20:35 | FromGitter | <mratsim> that would pollute the forum instead. |
| 16:20:38 | livcd | oh |
| 16:20:42 | livcd | you are right |
| 16:21:11 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I think we should close more aggressively |
| 16:22:06 | FromGitter | <mratsim> 6 weeks seem good. By the way this should really be retagged RFC: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/8358 |
| 16:23:12 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> I don't think it's pollution on the forum. The discussion is good. Just maybe in the wrong place? |
| 16:24:25 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Closing issues more aggressively is probably a good idea for other reasons though, like keeping your sanity and not being buried under a mountain of github issues. |
| 16:25:15 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Discussion on Github allows to use those as reference more easily from other PRs/issues. And closing on Github feels better than closing on the forum I think. |
| 16:25:17 | FromGitter | <alehander42> yeah nim subreddit often looks empty |
| 16:25:32 | FromGitter | <mratsim> on the other hand, dicussion on the forum means better visibility on Google |
| 16:25:34 | FromGitter | <alehander42> and I know that the nim forum is active, way more active than e.g. crystal reddit |
| 16:25:40 | FromGitter | <alehander42> but other visitors don't |
| 16:26:03 | FromGitter | <alehander42> maybe if there was a way to better some how demonstrate nimforum activity on the subreddit |
| 16:26:13 | FromGitter | <alehander42> maybe reposting most active discussion links |
| 16:26:52 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> A task for a reddit bot lol |
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| 16:34:33 | livcd | we have a reddit bot in nim ? |
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| 16:35:46 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> No. But we could make oneš |
| 16:36:41 | dom96 | kayabaNerve: haha, great idea "Hey Rust fans! Check out this brand new Rust gaming community, they are Rust game experts and are happy to help newbies!" |
| 16:37:16 | dom96 | rayman22201: yeah, I think a more formal RFC process would be good |
| 16:37:48 | dom96 | First requirement: each RFC should be a formal document so that it actually takes a little effort to compose |
| 16:37:55 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> gitter.im/nim-lang/War <- Make it real. |
| 16:38:13 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> There needs to be a template |
| 16:38:33 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> When I first made mine, I was worried about it. Then I saw the others, and now it's just detail the issue, solutions, and reasoning. |
| 16:38:46 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> I agree. It needs a template and the process needs to be well documented and advertising |
| 16:38:56 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Advertised |
| 16:39:09 | dom96 | mratsim: I've considered starting to close more aggressively + lock discussions that I think are going nowhere |
| 16:39:12 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Mozilla is a good guy >_> |
| 16:40:03 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> @Quelklef asked is he could go through the issues and comment fixed issues as fixed even if they weren't labelled so to get the attention of someone who could close them. |
| 16:40:23 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Turns out 5 years ago, a forgotten issue was made, and we've gone through 10 versions since... |
| 16:41:06 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Iāve been doing that without permission :P |
| 16:41:27 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> I think it was old Quellie... maybe not. |
| 16:41:28 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Quelklef and someone else was also working on closing old issues. Maybe @mratsim? I forgot lol |
| 16:41:30 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> @mratsim Good for you! |
| 16:41:49 | FromGitter | <mratsim> not really old, itās just that I often stumble on old thing |
| 16:42:31 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> I drew attention to an old --backend issue, made an RFC as the old wasn |
| 16:43:00 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Someone was trying to go through and tag old issues and run them through an automated build script to see they are fixed. Maybe @Varriount? |
| 16:43:20 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> I drew attention to an old --backend issue, made an RFC as the old wasn't technically an RFC after a discussion on Gitter, got criticized by a duplicate, but then Ara_q marked the original as accepted. No idea if that was Gitter or my duplicate, but progress? |
| 16:43:27 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> *as a duplicate |
| 16:44:22 | dom96 | it was shashlick IIRC |
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| 16:46:14 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Yeah ok |
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| 17:11:38 | FromDiscord | <awr> @kabayaNerve @dom96 the rustaceans would respond duly with advocating further confusing between the game of nim and the language of nim |
| 17:15:53 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Lol. At least the the game of Nim has strong mathematical foundations. Does that make Nim cool like Haskell? š |
| 17:20:36 | FromDiscord | <awr> lol |
| 17:20:47 | FromDiscord | <awr> i remember trying to learn haskell and then I just stopped |
| 17:21:12 | FromDiscord | <awr> no offense to haskell users but I was kind of left wondering what on earth I'd be using it for |
| 17:21:56 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> You use it to get you PhD in Computer Science of course š |
| 17:23:10 | FromDiscord | <awr> nim kind of has that problem too but for a different reason. the language itself is extremely usable and fits its domain of being a C++ killer well, it just needs a larger community behind it |
| 17:23:50 | FromDiscord | <awr> I try to shill Nim where I can though |
| 17:24:06 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> I got half way through the "Real World Haskell" book a few years ago, and just never came back to it... I keep saying that I will finish it one day. |
| 17:25:24 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> I agree about Nim. And I also try to be a Nim evangelist when I can. |
| 17:27:20 | FromDiscord | <awr> Is that the O'Reilly book? That's the one I was reading |
| 17:28:45 | dom96 | I also learned Haskell, using Learn You a Haskell |
| 17:28:57 | dom96 | Spent my time trying to avoid monads :D |
| 17:28:59 | FromGitter | <alehander42> haskell is interesting because of its type system, nothing really strange about it |
| 17:29:18 | FromGitter | <alehander42> i keep trying to get myself to learn idris or coq or something else dependent type or proof checker related |
| 17:29:36 | FromGitter | <alehander42> i'll probably do it in 10 years :D |
| 17:32:00 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @awr yeah. That's the one. Pink cover. I forget the animal on the front of that one lol. Not a bad book. I just didn't have the time. Monads don't scare me, I just always thought lazy evaluation was too magical for my taste lol. Typeclasses are awesome though. I learned Ocaml and like it much better actually. |
| 17:34:05 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @alehander42 Idris is written in Haskell isn't it? Linear types are really cool in theory but Idk how practical they are. Rust borrow Checker and Nim effect system all seem like trends in that direction but Idris is the grand daddy of that crazy type theory stuff. |
| 17:34:22 | FromDiscord | <awr> lazy evaluation is cool |
| 17:34:47 | FromDiscord | <awr> i've wondered if nim should have a 'lazy' keyword like D but i suppose templates are good enough |
| 17:35:01 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> It's cool until you need to guarantee runtime performance lol |
| 17:35:19 | FromDiscord | <awr> when Nim gets its own O'Reilly book that's when we know we've truly succeeded |
| 17:37:44 | FromGitter | <alehander42> @rayman22201 I don't know, I have just a passing idea about linear: were they similar to uniquness kinds? |
| 17:40:23 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @awr Hahaha. Yes. I wonder what animal we will get. @alehander42 yes. Very similar, but with linear types can take non linear types and cast/convert them to linear. They are more general. |
| 17:40:43 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> hmm does jaster support websockets or should i just use that http for static files and websocket library |
| 17:43:34 | * | ronny joined #nim |
| 17:43:38 | ronny | hi |
| 17:43:53 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> hi |
| 17:43:55 | ronny | anyone working on operating systems or base level tools in nim? |
| 17:44:13 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> i am not |
| 17:44:37 | dom96 | PusiteGA: Jester doesn't support websockets |
| 17:44:57 | dom96 | You can use jester + a websocket library though |
| 17:45:57 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> yep am trying š |
| 17:47:07 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @ronny there are a few people who have worked on nim for embedded. I am not atm, but plan to do some low level stuff when I get time. |
| 17:47:19 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> I've used Nim on embedded |
| 17:48:21 | ronny | rayman22201: i'd like to take a look at doing something non-posix |
| 17:49:27 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> i copy pasted http://niv.github.io/websocket.nim/docs/0.3.0/websocket/server.html it gives me error no websocket on import line |
| 17:49:34 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> i did nimble install websockets |
| 17:50:27 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> do i need to add soemthign ? |
| 17:51:02 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @ronny what do you mean? Unikernal? Beos? Y |
| 17:51:08 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> Something new? |
| 17:51:22 | FromDiscord | <awr> what is the import statement that you use |
| 17:51:50 | FromDiscord | <awr> there has been some changes wrt how nim imports things iirc |
| 17:52:04 | FromDiscord | <awr> you may need to do `import websocket/server` |
| 17:52:04 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> import websocket, asynchttpserver, asyncnet, asyncdispatch |
| 17:53:42 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @ronny @dom96 wrote a simple bootable kernel in Nim a long time ago that probably just needs some love and would make a good starting point. |
| 17:54:15 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ``` |
| 17:54:15 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> [pc@garbage-pc PokerServerNim]$ nimble build --verbose |
| 17:54:16 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> Setting Nim stdlib prefix to /usr |
| 17:54:16 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> Setting Nim stdlib path to /usr/lib/nim |
| 17:54:16 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> Info Hint: used config file '/etc/nim.cfg' [Conf] |
| 17:54:19 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> Info usr/lib/nim/system.nim(470, 35) Warning: unknown magic 'Exception' might crash the compiler [UnknownMagic] |
| 17:54:21 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> Info usr/lib/nim/system/nimscript.nim(15, 19) Warning: unknown magic 'BuildOS' might crash the compiler [UnknownMagic] |
| 17:54:21 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> Verif |
| 17:54:23 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ying dependencies for [email protected] |
| 17:54:25 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> Building PokerServerNim/PokerServerNim using c backend |
| 17:54:27 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> Error: Build failed for package: PokerServerNim |
| 17:54:28 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ... Details: |
| 17:54:30 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ... Execution failed with exit code 1 |
| 17:54:33 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ... Command: "/usr/bin/nim" c --noBabelPath -o:"/home/pc/Documents/Programming/Nim/PokerServerNim/PokerServerNim" "/home/pc/Documents/Programming/Nim/PokerServerNim/src/PokerServerNim.nim" |
| 17:54:35 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ... Output: Hint: used |
| 17:54:36 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> config file '/etc/nim.cfg' [Conf] |
| 17:54:38 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ... Hint: system [Processing] |
| 17:54:39 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ... Hint: PokerServerNim [Processing] |
| 17:54:41 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ... PokerServerNim.nim(1, 17) Error: cannot open 'websocket/server' |
| 17:54:43 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ``` |
| 17:54:44 | dom96 | PusiteGA: Use a pastebin service please! |
| 17:55:23 | dom96 | You need to add `requires "jester"` in your .nimble file |
| 17:55:27 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> oh sorry i frogot people connected whit irc |
| 17:55:39 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> but am not using jester am i ? |
| 17:55:54 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> http://niv.github.io/websocket.nim/docs/0.3.0/websocket/server.html |
| 17:55:56 | dom96 | oh, i mean `requires "websockets"` |
| 17:55:59 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> just copy pasted this |
| 17:56:05 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ok |
| 17:56:20 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> i tryed that just whitout "" xD |
| 17:56:54 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> hmmm |
| 17:59:19 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> how to build whit nimble using -threads option i think you told me i needed that for client when i tryed |
| 18:00:41 | dom96 | put ``--threads`` in a PokerServerNim.nim.cfg |
| 18:00:56 | dom96 | You can just use `nimble c --threads PokerServerNim.nim` while you're playing around |
| 18:01:42 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> --threads=on š |
| 18:01:50 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> but ty |
| 18:01:53 | dom96 | --threads:on |
| 18:03:16 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ... PokerServerNim.nim(8, 23) template/generic instantiation from here |
| 18:03:16 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> ... PokerServerNim.nim(32, 7) Error: expression 'close(ws, 0, "")' is of type 'Future[system.void]' and has to be discarded |
| 18:03:34 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> what does this mean , type of future? |
| 18:04:25 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> asyncCheck |
| 18:04:33 | FromDiscord | <PusiteGA> or just ignore? |
| 18:04:45 | dom96 | `await` or `asyncCheck` |
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| 19:18:47 | livcd | i wonder how many web apps are out there in Nim considering there really is not any "mature" web framework/lib |
| 19:19:07 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> None other than the ones by dom96 is my guess. |
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| 19:20:04 | dom96 | When you've got a forum written in a framework I think it deserves to be called "mature" :) |
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| 19:21:02 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> ^^ |
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| 20:55:30 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> dom96 Would you recommend async or threads? |
| 20:56:40 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> I know they do solve two different problems but... One removes blocks, one doesn't care and just continues, and then introduces blocks as it waits for its comrades. |
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| 21:02:22 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> In my experience, async first, threads second. An async function is much easier to port to using threads, than the other way around. |
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| 21:30:23 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I went through the chat app in domās book this week, the chapter 3 on building an async multithreaded chat app, is simple but deep enough to learn the basics of async multi-threaded servers in Nim. Though multi threading is via spawn/threadpool and not via long-lived create thread, and it does not use channels |
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| 21:52:02 | livcd | I did not dig in Nim's channels but have not seen them used on any project I checked |
| 21:56:04 | FromGitter | <Varriount> We need a threaded, async example. |
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| 22:13:46 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @Varriount https://github.com/dom96/nim-in-action-code/blob/master/Chapter3/ChatApp/src/client.nim ā `import os, threadpool, asyncdispatch, asyncnet` |
| 22:22:10 | FromGitter | <Varriount> @mratsim I meant, with an example that uses long-running threads. |
| 22:22:25 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Or even better, two threads running two event loops. |
| 22:26:37 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Is the purpose of both to use async to communicate? |
| 22:28:12 | dom96 | It really depends what the use cases are |
| 22:28:28 | dom96 | But you probably don't need threads |
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| 22:36:14 | krux02 | I really dislike how people today want to kill every performance problem with multithreading. |
| 22:36:54 | krux02 | I think there is a fundamental problem in teaching people about how computers work. |
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| 22:46:45 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> The problem is the Marketing from CPU manufacturers has pushed multi-threading as a buzzword for so long. In their defense, they had to do something because of the "cpu power wall". They haven't been able to increase CPU frequencies in years unfortunately... |
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| 23:00:14 | stefanos82 | @rayman22201: actually it's something deeper than that; it's the fact that their CPUs have to be compatible with existing hardware and C-API libraries that are quite problematic |
| 23:00:22 | stefanos82 | basically we got stuck |
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| 23:08:40 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I like spawning thousands on threads on my GPU =) |
| 23:09:46 | FromGitter | <barcharcraz> GPUs like one thread with lots of data |
| 23:12:17 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @barcharcraz that article explains it well: http://yosefk.com/blog/simd-simt-smt-parallelism-in-nvidia-gpus.html |
| 23:13:08 | FromGitter | <mratsim> unlike CPU thread, GPUs thread are grouped into a warp of 32 threads, a warp must execute the exact same instruction |
| 23:13:35 | FromGitter | <mratsim> meaning if you have branching, a warp will execute both branches so donāt branch. |
| 23:15:36 | FromGitter | <mratsim> A GTX 1070 has 15 processors, each capable of 2048 threads |
| 23:15:53 | FromGitter | <mratsim> ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5b64e22985278d705e7fb0fc] |
| 23:16:56 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @stefanos82 I'm pretty sure it's the power wall... You can't beat physics: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/421186/why-cpus-arent-getting-any-faster/ |
| 23:17:54 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @mratsim lol... Yeah, GPU's are a different beast. SIMD taken to the extreme |
| 23:18:40 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Itās actually quite fun to develop GPU algos |
| 23:19:21 | stefanos82 | @rayman22201: you didn't understand my point. I have seen a couple of videos by some wise scientists that talked the truth: the programs that still exist today are functioning in an emulating state, that is they are emulating PDP-11's structure, even though we have far better hardware today |
| 23:19:37 | FromGitter | <mratsim> what is not fun is debugging them :P, no stacktrace, and the print/echo command was added recently only iirc in Cuda, not sure it even exists in OpenCL |
| 23:21:19 | FromGitter | <barcharcraz> I don't really think it's true that we're emulating some outdated structure. Like sure, we emulate a bunch of weird crud in x86 but from what I understand it does not really use that much power (or space) |
| 23:21:55 | FromGitter | <barcharcraz> have you heard of the FGCS project (Fifth gen computer) |
| 23:21:59 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @stephanos82 I think you missed my point. I also read the PDP-11 article you speak of. Though I can't find it atm. That's not the real problem. ARM would be waaaayyyy faster clock speeds if it was only architecture emulation that was the problem. |
| 23:22:03 | FromGitter | <barcharcraz> it was a project in japan in the 80s |
| 23:23:30 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @barcharcraz actually Intel is petitioning because some pruning instructions would allow them to save a lot of die space. ā Also, Intel is also running an emulator directly within the CPU because itās not worth it to implement everything in hardware |
| 23:23:52 | FromGitter | <barcharcraz> yeah |
| 23:23:58 | FromGitter | <barcharcraz> petitioning whom? |
| 23:24:17 | FromGitter | <mratsim> the compiler dev maybe? |
| 23:24:25 | FromGitter | <mratsim> have to find the article |
| 23:25:05 | FromGitter | <mratsim> this one is a start: https://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=25 |
| 23:26:15 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> @mratsim we have a lot to talk about |
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| 23:27:25 | FromGitter | <mratsim> probably this is a good discussion as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14559087. @barcharcraz, I probably misremembered, people are petioning Intel, but Intel doesnāt care. |
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| 23:34:52 | stefanos82 | @rayman22201: I think we both understand what each other meant to say, but due to luck of language restrictions, we couldn't express ourselves properly lol. basically what I mean is that we are using software that waste time and energy when it could be designed to produce faster results far more accurately and in less amount of time and effort. |
| 23:35:04 | stefanos82 | *due to lack |
| 23:37:53 | stefanos82 | for instance, the amount of energy that goes wasted with C++ and Java during compilation procedure...bloody hell, Go team decided to design a better language for their needs due to the massive amount of time and effort it took to compile their humongous binary files. Imagine, they were using their own data centers and they were still complaining that it was taking a great effort to finish. |
| 23:37:54 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> @stefanos82 lol. Fair enough. |
| 23:39:02 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> My comment was a response to why multi-threading is seen as a catch all solution to programming problems that @krux02 commented about. |
| 23:39:13 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> What you are explaining is true, but tangential to that point |
| 23:40:11 | stefanos82 | I get really irritated when I see projects such as KolibriOS that is designed with flat assembler and needs only 8MB RAM to run |
| 23:40:13 | stefanos82 | with GUI |
| 23:40:48 | stefanos82 | why do we need whole pack of GBs of RAM to compile a project the size of Chromium? |
| 23:40:52 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> MenuetOS and KolibriOS are freaking amazing feats of engineering |
| 23:40:53 | stefanos82 | it doesn't make any sense to me |
| 23:41:01 | stefanos82 | very true mate |
| 23:41:16 | stefanos82 | so we have the proof that *it can be done*! |
| 23:41:47 | stefanos82 | the real question is: who is behind the decision to sell billions of $$$ of hardware equipment? |
| 23:42:13 | stefanos82 | sure thing is not the ethical hardware designer or engineer who knows how to design things *the right way* |
| 23:42:29 | FromGitter | <mratsim> itās a tradeoff with development/maintenance time and hardware capabilities |
| 23:43:00 | FromGitter | <mratsim> and it doesnāt run on raspberry pi, which would love that |
| 23:43:07 | stefanos82 | that's the thing @mratsim; why do we need to push the limits of our own software when we have fast hardware, hypothetically speaking? |
| 23:44:00 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Your time, and all dev time cost much more than a processor *per day* |
| 23:44:21 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> exactly. economics wins over absolute efficiency every time. |
| 23:45:07 | stefanos82 | you see, both of you provide this type of answer based on the current facts, which I agree of course |
| 23:45:36 | stefanos82 | but we all know, if we had properly designed hardware and software, we wouldn't be dealing with so many exploits and security issues |
| 23:46:09 | stefanos82 | and we would be providing efficient development from the begin |
| 23:46:24 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> It's not just people or money, evolution works this way. That is why you get some weird animals in different ecosystems that seems to make no sense, but are optimal "enough" for their environment. |
| 23:46:35 | FromGitter | <mratsim> To be honest, I think all of us are like craftsmen, trying our best to create product we would be proud of. |
| 23:47:18 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> I hope we are. I have met developers who just want a paycheck... but non of them would hang out here. We actually care about our work :-P |
| 23:47:32 | FromGitter | <mratsim> And Iām pretty obsessed with performance as well. Just check āoptimizationā issues in my repos, I check the assembly my code produce and the number of hits of each instructions |
| 23:47:55 | stefanos82 | I know for sure that all of the people that care about their job and the quality they provide are the first to be let go |
| 23:48:08 | FromGitter | <mratsim> But, reality is, at one point you need to ship. Sometimes the dev is in charge and choose when to (not) ship |
| 23:48:28 | FromGitter | <mratsim> sometimes marketing or sales decide, and they oversell |
| 23:48:51 | stefanos82 | I was about to say something along the lines of @mratsim |
| 23:48:51 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Fun read: https://projectfailures.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/project-from-hell/ |
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| 23:50:28 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Iām pretty sure, people/management/crazy deadlines turn a lot of devs from craftsmen to āI canāt be bothered, leave me alone" |
| 23:51:37 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> very true, burnout is a real problem. I have experienced it first hand :-/ |
| 23:52:37 | FromGitter | <mratsim> But youāre also an artist, I think itās even worse for artists. I sit a meeting with people bikeshedding for 30 minutes about shades of blue ... |
| 23:52:52 | stefanos82 | the problem with management is that they don't allow any programmer to express their concerns about management's decisions |
| 23:53:15 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Another fun read, for artists this time @rayman22201 https://www.boredpanda.com/ridiculous-client-requests-photoshop-edits-nissin-cup-noodle/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic |
| 23:53:25 | stefanos82 | they don't ask whether is feasible, let alone plausible to implement a new feature |
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| 23:54:15 | FromGitter | <mratsim> itās also true in industry or in support, people on the field see issues, hierarchy sees numbers |
| 23:54:53 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> hahahaha. That article is pretty great |
| 23:56:02 | FromGitter | <rayman22201> I've read the first one before when it made the round on Hacker News. that one is more sad but true situation. |
| 23:58:03 | stefanos82 | @mratsim: what did I just witness...what is this abomination?! |
| 23:58:52 | FromGitter | <mratsim> =) I need to go to sleep. And yeah I think artists have it worse than programmers ;) |
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