<< 03-10-2013 >>
00:01:24fowlo
00:10:14MFlamerHey guys
00:13:52Araqhey; I'm waiting for your pull request :P
00:20:09Araqgood night
00:21:48MFlamerfor the table?
00:22:27MFlamerwere gettin close.
00:26:54fowltable?
00:31:18MFlamerI'm working on a lock free hash table
00:32:40MFlamerfowl: what are you up to?
00:37:49fowlwatching breaking bad
00:39:36MFlamernice, I just finished the finale a few days ago. I've seen them all.
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11:32:26Araqhey DAddYE
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16:28:09reactormonkhttp://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1nnanz/what_word_or_phrase_got_so_overused_that_it_lost/cck8re1
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17:10:22Araqping DAddYE
17:10:43DAddYEAraq: pong
17:10:55Araqah cool
17:11:09Araqwell I encoded the rules in "nimrod pretty"
17:11:27Araqso you might try again and make easy to follow pull requests :P
17:11:45Araqso that the current code base compiles with both --cs:none and --cs:partial
17:11:48DAddYEAraq: sure! Thanks man
17:12:12DAddYEdo we still have nim pretty?
17:12:47Araqyes? I think so
17:13:22DAddYEcool :D
17:14:04Araqand again, don't work hard, if there are problems, tell me
17:14:11DAddYEAraq: okay
17:14:13DAddYEwill do
17:14:19DAddYEthanks a lot!
17:14:49dyu_DAddYE: have you been working hard? :-)
17:15:10DAddYEdyu_: more than you think :D, check my fork :D
17:17:14dyu_hehe
17:18:09dyu_you did promise to change it by hand
17:18:24dyu_in the forums (regarding the T/P stuff)
17:18:49dyu_(or maybe it was in github issues)
17:19:10DAddYEdyu_: I did the first time
17:19:24DAddYEthen another time with pretty (initial version)
17:19:40DAddYEhand checking each file
17:19:58DAddYEin total I removed T/P and camelify 3 times
17:20:04DAddYEand the code base isn't that small :D
17:20:24Araqwell "nimrod pretty" still only deals with the consistency issue sorry
17:20:38Araqbut T/P stuff needs to be done incrementally anyway
17:20:49Araqwith type aliases
17:20:55Araq... I think
17:21:01dyu_though with the new feature zahary mentioned about auto-dereferencing would help
17:21:56dyu_eliminating the need for P prefix in some instances
17:22:53Araqhow so?
17:23:02Araqit's completely unrelated
17:23:40Araqalso the auto-deref feature is risky; we will try it but should it turn out to introduce too many bugs I'll remove it again
17:23:57Araqevery automatic conversion weakens the type system
17:24:09dyu_hrmm, well better not do it i guess?
17:24:54Araqwell it can be done already with 'converter'
17:25:00dyu_wysiwyg prevails I guess ... no surprises (explicit vs implicit)
17:25:26Araqwysiwyg is a pretty weak design rule IMHO
17:25:41Araqa[i] = a[j] + 4
17:25:43Araqvs.
17:26:10Araqassign(array.get(a, i), plus(array.get(a, j), 4))
17:26:30dyu_i'd take the former
17:27:25dyu_and the former is wysiwyg (if you ask a c/java person)
17:27:48Araqthis "overloading is bad" etc. stuff is a weak argument; you might as well use a Lisp syntax and call it a day
17:28:10dyu_nah, I actually prefer overloading
17:28:49dyu_not really sure why golang didn't implement it
17:29:25Araqif you like infix syntax, you have to like operator overloading; otherwise you end up with the () everywhere anyway and might just go with Lisp-like syntax
17:30:04dyu_that area I don't like (operator overloading)
17:30:45dyu_well, let me paraphrase ... not wysiwyg ... but explicit vs implicit
17:31:33Araqyeah but only to some degree. Make too many things explicit and you end up with verbose "baby talk"
17:33:49dyu_yea ofc
17:36:39Araqand of course using that slogan for a dynamically typed language is absurd ;-)
17:42:25dyu_Araq: btw, with --cs:partial, one can now declare a proc param as proc foo(foo:Foo): Foo = ...
17:42:28dyu_?
17:42:56Araqyou can do that already but only under some circumstances
17:43:01Araqbut yes
17:43:02dyu_then the local vars inside the function could also declare var bar:Bar
17:43:09Araqyep
17:43:11dyu_cool
17:43:23dyu_thanks
17:43:24Araqnot really but people are getting what they want
17:43:43Araqin the hope it helps growing the language ;-)
17:43:51dyu_hehehehe
17:44:41dyu_Araq: is the type classes impl still far away?
17:44:56dyu_I was wondering if it could be simpler (like scala type classes)
17:45:04dyu_mainly for duck typing
17:45:21dyu_and as compile time constraint
17:45:38dyu_so we can have something like what rust/go has
17:46:15AraqI don't know how far they are away, zahary said it's not much work left but he disappeared :P
17:46:19dyu_And you did advice people not to use inheritance/method
17:46:26Araqyes
17:46:35dyu_so that's our best option I think
17:47:44dyu_Araq: how do you feel about go's interface?
17:47:47Araqwell we already have 'system.compiles' so already lots of stuff is possible
17:48:21Araqgo's interfaces are neat but do not solve any hard problem and in fact makes problems worse
17:50:15Araqbut it takes articles to explain it and it's not common knowledge
17:50:28dyu_i see, so you prefer traits?
17:50:36dyu_ala rust
17:50:41Araqdepends
17:50:49Araqthe compile-time traits -- yes
17:50:59Araqthe runtime traits have the very same problems
17:51:15dyu_yea, I meant compile time traits
17:51:24dyu_ala rust
17:51:31AraqRust has both
17:51:36dyu_oh?
17:51:40dyu_didn't know that
17:52:19Araqactually ... thinking again about it ...
17:52:27AraqI might be wrong ... will check later
17:53:37Araqanyway there is a bijection from "tuple of closures" to "interface", so Nimrod already has them ;-)
17:54:23dyu_not sure if I follow
17:54:31dyu_can you give an example?
17:55:40Araqtests/run/tinterf
18:00:58dyu_cool. though it has an overhead of a closure
18:01:23Araqit's 6 words vs 4
18:01:26dyu_compared to a function that receives 'self' as the first arg
18:01:41dyu_and nimrod auto-mapping to that at compile time
18:01:56Araqso yes, it add overhead but not significantly unless you have large interfaces
18:02:10Araqwhich are a design smell anyway, rriiiiight?
18:02:58Araqalso we can add a pragma to make the compiler share the environment pointers
18:03:13Araqand then it's 0 overhead compared to a real interface
18:04:03dyu_sure you could do that ... but do you prefer it over simply implementing traits (or type classes)?
18:04:35AraqI think what we currently have is great but it discourages people from using interfaces
18:04:44Araqs/but/because
18:06:20dyu_well you're discouraging the use of methods, so that leaves us with that or traits :-)
18:08:22Araqyeah but compile-time traits are fine :P
18:09:57dyu_the moment that gets implemented, I promise I'ma start writing lots of nimrod code :-P
18:10:24Araqyes I know. There is always 1 show stopper left.
18:10:42Araq"what do you mean it still lacks dependent typing? o.O "
18:11:14Araq"wtf? It still lacks multiple inheritance?"
18:11:53Araq"what? I can't have multiple utils modules in the same project? "
18:12:50dyu_nah, for me that's the only one left ... duck typing
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18:14:34dyu_since I can't do object oriented programming (composition) without it
18:14:45Araqhu?
18:15:00Araqcomposition works fine already
18:15:31Araqand generics already duck type
18:15:36dyu_yea it does, but there are not compile time contracts
18:15:44dyu_there are no*
18:15:48Araqyes there are via system.compiles
18:15:50dyu_like interfaces or traits
18:16:04Araqbut I agree it's not a beautiful solution
18:16:06dyu_contracts that are tied to a type
18:16:16dyu_well not really
18:19:04Araqwell people use Nimrod for OO, so you're wrong :P
18:19:17dyu_yea, inheritance and methods
18:19:36dyu_that you put in the language ... but not recommend it :-)
18:19:57Araqthat is OO anyway, traits are part of the "generic programming paradigm". Perhaps. ;-)
18:20:35Araqthe essence of OO is runtime dispatching; if you don't use it ("compile time traits"), you do not use OO
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18:25:58dyu_ok... not OO programming ... DT programming
18:32:20AraqDT? dynamically typed?
18:32:41dyu_duck typing
18:32:56dyu_if it can quack, its a duck!
18:33:25Araqwell type traits are about to constrain the duck typing
18:33:35Araq*about constraining
18:34:08dyu_well your'e right :-)
18:35:28dyu_any kind of compile-time constraint whether traits or interface is fine with me
18:35:38Araqvia system.compiles?
18:35:40Araq:P
18:42:03*dyu_ still has no idea what system.compiles Araq is talking about
18:42:57Araqwithin a generic you can do:
18:43:14Araqwhen not compiles(a + 3):
18:43:38Araq {.error: "type of a needs to support addition with an integer literal".}
18:45:36dyu_I love the verbosity
18:47:03Araqyes it's not beautiful I know
18:48:55dyu_Araq: http://pastebin.com/Qsd34BZ6 ... think your impl of traits could be something like that?
18:52:24Araqsure why not, only uglier
18:55:12dyu_the simpler the better ...
18:56:00dyu_the keywords don't necessarily have to be the same
18:56:02dyu_only the structure
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19:22:07BitPuffinahoy!
19:22:13BitPuffinAraq: have you done the talk yet?
19:23:19Araqhey BitPuffin
19:23:21Araqhttp://forum.nimrod-code.org/t/256
19:24:43Araqand here is some feedback I got: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeSmVhMguFQ
19:24:46BitPuffinAraq: cool! I'll have a look
19:24:59BitPuffinAraq: did you see anything when you were there that was of interest?
19:25:32BitPuffinHahahaha
19:25:45BitPuffinAraq: Somehow I am not surprised
19:27:55Araqyes I saw lots of cool stuff I might steal :-)
19:29:26BitPuffinAraq: Nice! Like what?
19:36:15Araqthe new type system Odersky is working on
19:36:49Araqbuiltins for parallelism that JS will get
19:37:58BitPuffinAraq: for Scala?
19:38:21Araqhe said Scala might get it if he can get it compatible enough
19:38:32BitPuffinaha
19:38:38BitPuffinwell what was cool about the type system?
19:42:06Araqgah, don't make me explain it
19:42:12BitPuffinHaha okay
19:42:17BitPuffinguess I'll have to wait until it
19:42:20BitPuffincomes online
19:42:33BitPuffinWas the talk "The Trouble With Types"?
19:44:47Araqyes
19:46:36BitPuffinCool
19:46:44BitPuffinWell guess I am gonna have to be patient then
19:49:18BitPuffinI feel like almost all languages lack an elegant way to override stuff. I mean there is either the approach of making an interface and have a standard implementation, or you take a tuple (or whatever) of function pointers. And I suppose there is inheritance, but you shouldn't have to make everything an object. So I wonder if there is an ultimate approach
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20:08:03AraqBitPuffin: ever tried a dynamically typed language?
20:24:05BitPuffinAraq: yes, but I mean for a systems programming language
20:24:23BitPuffinAraq: you wouldn't really write a 3d game in say ruby
20:27:34MFlamerI started to try and learn a dynamically typed language once.........way too sloppy for me couldn't stand it.
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20:45:52MFlamermaybe sloppy is not the correct term. Coming from only statically typed languages, it just seemed to "loose" for me. I know a lot of people are very productive in them.
20:48:11Araqreally? I know nobody who is :P
20:48:20Araqonly people who think they are ;-)
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20:50:19BitPuffinAraq: hehe
20:50:30BitPuffinAraq: Well you are productive when it works
20:50:37MFlamerI was just being polite. Yes, I agree the productivity is an illusion
20:51:15EXetoCof what?
20:51:32AraqEXetoC: welcome to the world of logs
20:51:41Araqhttp://build.nimrod-code.org/irclogs/
20:51:46Araqfirst time is free
20:52:22EXetoCdidn't think of that
20:52:27EXetoCyeah, I can't stand python
20:54:06EXetoCthe interactive shell is helpful, that's all, but then again it's not like static languages can't have those
20:54:08EXetoCsane ones anyway
20:54:32Araqnimrod has a shitty one that is giving us bad press
20:54:43dom96hello BitPuffin, where have you been?
20:54:48MFlamer;-(
20:55:24BitPuffindom96: around? I think? Just haven't been very loud. Or my irc client hasn't been running haha
20:55:36EXetoCright
20:56:05BitPuffindom96: I also noticed that I had to add #nimrod to weechat, maybe that had something to do with it too. Was running quassel for a while on the laptop
20:57:44BitPuffindom96: but other than that I guess I have been a bit more busy than usual :P
20:59:40dom96You forgot about #nimrod, shame on you.
21:00:11BitPuffindom96: no just that I was using weechat before I switched to quassel and didn't find out about nimrod until I used quassel :P
21:00:25BitPuffinright now I am kind of getting to know javascript a bit closer :$
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21:00:54BitPuffinso I am reading eloquent javascript
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21:02:28*BitPuffin is preparing for objections
21:05:51BitPuffinAraq: actually I suppose with webgl you would write a 3d game in a dynamic language (js), but even then you can use nimrod and compile to javascript :P
21:05:59BitPuffinsomething that I hope to do
21:07:45AraqUnreal Engine runs on the browser now
21:07:55Araqvia JS
21:07:56dom96BitPuffin: what happened to your game in Nimrod?
21:08:16dom96IIRC you said you would have something done a month ago :P
21:08:18BitPuffinAraq: Yeah I know, old news :P
21:08:28Araqgood
21:08:47BitPuffindom96: still doing a game (well games actually) in nimrod, but for now not the one I mentioned!
21:09:07Araqany chance you do an RTS?
21:09:12BitPuffinAraq: That was done by compiling C++ to js with emscripten
21:09:24AraqI know
21:09:49BitPuffinAraq: Not planned for now no. If I ever feel like I can think of a reason to make one, maybe I will :)
21:10:37BitPuffinBut if nimrod turns out to be epic enough for a few projects I will create some really nice tools that should encourage devs to switch to nimrod
21:10:51BitPuffinand be finally liberated from C++ :P
21:12:59Araqmeh fine, I'll port mine to nimrod when 1.0 is out and I have time again :P
21:15:01BitPuffinAraq: you have made an rts?
21:15:17BitPuffinyeah get cranking on 1.0 :P
21:16:08Araqyeah I did years ago
21:16:31Araqit's crap but was great fun to build
21:16:46BitPuffinI had thought flowing around in my mind that when I have completed a game in nimrod and hopefully made enough income to be sustainable for a while to get familiar with the compiler and fix as many bugs as possible full time for like 2 weeks. But that would be way in the future
21:16:53BitPuffinby then I'd be better at nimrod :P
21:17:09BitPuffinAraq: was it 3d? :o
21:17:13Araqlol no
21:17:26BitPuffinhehe, okay
21:18:01BitPuffinMy current active project is probably one of my oldest
21:18:39BitPuffinlet's see when I came up with it
21:19:34BitPuffinaround 1st september 2011
21:19:42BitPuffinso I have been thinking about it a lot xD
21:20:26Araqthat might be good
21:21:50BitPuffinhttp://superfriendshipclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=353&p=4052&hilit=holochrist#p4052 some early days of the project, it isn't exactly much like what I had planned then. Although I will probably make something along the lines of what I had planned in some later installment
21:23:17dom96that's some scary shit
21:24:31BitPuffindom96: the monster?
21:24:36dom96ya
21:25:10BitPuffinthanks :)
21:26:27BitPuffinso now I am basically writing an engine from scratch
21:26:33BitPuffindiscard the Unity/UDK talk in there
21:26:38BitPuffinand most of the stuff
21:27:20BitPuffinpossibly one of the only things that will show up in the end is the monster
21:28:33BitPuffinbut yeah it should turn out nicely
21:30:26BitPuffindom96: how's school?
21:30:47shevydom96: how's the drugs?
21:31:14Araqdom96: shevy knows about your secret! :O
21:31:29shevywe all have to pay the bills somehow!
21:31:51dom96After the FBI took down DPR everything went downhill...
21:32:08dom96BitPuffin: Busy, tiring, sickening :P
21:33:05BitPuffinDPR? Don't you mean silkroad?
21:33:22BitPuffinis shevy new?
21:33:31BitPuffindom96: sounds like school to me
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21:34:52BitPuffinI engage myself in self study instead, so I can learn about the things that are relevant to me without other jizz
21:35:01dom96Yeah, Dread Pirate Rogers.
21:35:13dom96Well, I should have said arrested.
21:35:26*dom96 is tired
21:35:27BitPuffindom96: would have been cool if the took him down
21:35:34*dom96 blames school
21:35:35BitPuffindidn't even know that was his name
21:35:44shevyBitPuffin I was on and off here
21:35:49BitPuffindom96: telling ya, it is the jizz
21:35:53shevyI tried to work through python tutorial
21:35:57dom96oh and yeah, shevy has been here longer than you BitPuffin I think :P
21:36:03shevythen started to hate it and that's when I usually come to nimrod
21:36:24BitPuffinshevy: cool! Well hello
21:36:38shevythe only nice thing that python has is the official tutorial
21:36:48BitPuffinnimrod needs a book
21:36:50shevyruby documentation is rather awful still
21:36:51shevyyeah
21:37:04BitPuffinbut maybe we should hold on to that until we reach 1.0
21:38:36AraqI'm writing a book
21:38:58BitPuffinAraq: say whaaat
21:39:10dom96BitPuffin: Yeah. I am stuck with stupid ICT. I sincerely hope uni is more err positively challenging.
21:39:14Araqa book with pages and stuff
21:39:26BitPuffinAraq: you don't say
21:39:58BitPuffindom96: information communications technology?
21:40:09BitPuffinAraq: what's it called?
21:40:12dom96BitPuffin: yeah...
21:40:23BitPuffin"Why everything sucks and nimrod is yes"
21:40:46BitPuffin"Nimrod! No? Yes!"
21:41:13Araq"what the ... ? Nimrod? aaaaarrrrrghhhh"
21:41:14BitPuffin"How to not hate programming languages"
21:41:29dom96"Worshipping Nimrod: a step by step guide"
21:41:30BitPuffinAraq: that's a great title
21:41:52BitPuffin"Nimrod is watching you sleep, here is how you learn to enjoy that"
21:42:03Araq"Why everything that is 'common knowledge' in computer science is wrong"
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21:43:57BitPuffin"I hate everything, here is my programming language"
21:44:20Araqnice one
21:44:32BitPuffinfor sure
21:45:05BitPuffinno but seriously, is it called something generic like "The Nimrod Programming Language" Araq?
21:45:36BitPuffin"sit the fuck down and .nim that shit"
21:45:43Araqin fact I don't know the title, I thought about "Programming Nimrod"
21:46:07BitPuffinAraq: how far have you come?
21:46:19BitPuffinWill it be open sauce?
21:46:38Araqtable of contents + some other pieces
21:46:50Araqand no, you will have to pay for it
21:47:20BitPuffineven for digital download?
21:47:36Araqyes
21:47:49BitPuffinI see
21:47:53BitPuffinwell I guess that makes sense
21:47:59BitPuffingets some funding for the project
21:48:20BitPuffinon the flipside, having an open source book is attractive for newcomers
21:48:44Araqwe have that already and it's called the "manual"
21:49:04BitPuffinAraq: I know, but you know, beginners
21:49:17Araqwe have that already and it's called the "tutorial"
21:49:40BitPuffinAraq: Well there is still a great void between the tutorial and the manual
21:50:03BitPuffinat least if you don't know a lot about programming
21:50:28Araqthe tutorial 1 starts with zero previous knowledge ... I think
21:50:55Araqbut you know
21:51:16Araqgetting more people who are still learning how to program doesn't help nimrod a single bit
21:51:30BitPuffinI think it does
21:51:47BitPuffinbecause they will hopefully get good at it
21:51:51BitPuffinand make awesome nimrod stuff
21:52:04Araqyeah that's what beginners tend to do
21:52:29BitPuffinso how could it not help nimrod to get people who are learning how to program using nimrod
21:52:46BitPuffinI can see how even the tutorial is frightening to a new programmer
21:53:11BitPuffinand even if it wasn't, just reading the tutorial would not be enough to grasp the manual
21:53:17BitPuffinbut I digress
21:53:39Araqin my opinion we need more specialized articles
21:53:45Araqlike "concurrency in nimrod"
21:53:56Araq"generics in Nimrod"
21:54:01BitPuffinThat too
21:54:16Araq"Nimrod plus SDL == pure awesomeness"
21:54:25BitPuffinHehe
21:54:31BitPuffinjust needs to be updated to SDL 2 :P
21:54:34Araq"Partial redudancy elimination in Nimrod"
21:56:09BitPuffinshouldn't we perhaps consider breaking out some of the wrappers in to babel packages later as nimrod and babel matures?
21:56:32BitPuffinBut still keep them "officially" maintained
21:56:53Araqthat's what we are doing for the next release yes
21:57:09BitPuffinah! nice
21:57:16Araqbtw I improved the compiler so that now Babel should work flawlessly with it
21:58:00BitPuffinAraq: Ah! In what way was it flawed?
21:58:43Araqwell you can have package1/utils.nim and package2/utils.nim now in the same project
21:58:58Araqalso there is now "import x as y"
21:59:15BitPuffinAraq: Finally! nicely done
22:01:39BitPuffinshould be very useful
22:05:13BitPuffinzahary: so how is assignment delagators going? :)
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22:30:35OrionPKNimrod plus SDL plus Windows == pure headache
22:30:36OrionPK:p
22:31:09Araqreally? why?
22:31:16OrionPKonly if statically linked
22:31:30OrionPKbecause of the main swapping shenanigans SDL does, if u recall
22:31:43Araqthat's SDL 2
22:31:51AraqSDL 1 works nicely
22:31:58OrionPKhavent tried it
22:32:15OrionPKSDL1 doesnt change winmain?
22:32:23AraqI still don't believe that changed main in SDL 2
22:32:36Araqthat's foolish and they really should know better
22:32:49Araq*that they changed
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22:35:10AraqOrionPK: http://www.ginkgobitter.org/sdl/?SDL_SetMainReady seems to suggest it's not necessary
22:36:15OrionPKah, yes defining SDL_MAIN_HANDLED will prevent it from hijacking
22:37:05OrionPKi might have found that too, but found that my complaints were more memorable than the resolution ;)
22:37:19Araqwell you don't have to use "header: sdl2.h" and then it's not #included and there can't be any hijacking then
22:37:34Araqwhich is the way to go imho anyway
22:38:14Araqdependency on a header is stupid on linux as you then need some -devel package to compile your nimrod program
22:38:33OrionPKI think I was trying to get fowls lib working, not writing my own wrapper
22:40:44Araqfowl: fix your sdl2 wrapper please
22:41:07AraqOrionPK: any game finished that I can play?
22:41:20OrionPKany game started would be a better question :P
22:42:04OrionPKstill feeling too uninspired to start a game, no motivation to program in such vast quantities outside of work
22:43:12fowlAraq, whats wrong with it
22:44:08Araqdon't use the 'header' pragma if you do
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22:45:30fowlOrionPK, i was planning on taking out static linking anyways
22:45:46OrionPKmight as well
22:46:19BitPuffinAraq: Don't worry, games will come :P
22:46:37BitPuffinAraq: and if you want I'll send you early tech demos etc
22:47:08AraqBitPuffin: I'm fine thanks. I don't have time for games anyway.
22:47:38BitPuffinAraq: So that's why you asked for games? Haha
22:48:11fowlOrionPK, when i found out you had to do whatever you had to do for windows i couldnt figure out to get around it
22:51:18BitPuffinpeople should use nimrod in some LD-like jams so that it is at least present
22:51:49*BitPuffin looks sharply at dom96
22:58:12EXetoCpie
23:04:43fowlim working on 2 right now
23:04:48fowlslowly
23:05:20BitPuffinfowl: 2 games?
23:05:31fowlyea
23:06:43BitPuffinme too
23:06:53BitPuffinfowl: what kind of games?
23:14:19fowlones an action rpg the other is an atari-like system
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23:20:18Araqgood night
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23:38:20MFlamerAraq: you gone?
23:39:21MFlamerAside form some sugar, how are our object variants different than ADT's (Sum Types)?
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