| 00:19:14 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Hey leorize, if you're around, I have a quick question about the sans-io approach↵↵If my callback is synchronous, won't there be an issue with async sockets? Like, won't it block? Or is that up to the implementor to figure out? |
| 00:20:30 | FromDiscord | <leorize> why would you even have a callback in sans io? |
| 00:21:22 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> To receive the bytes from a streaming protocol? |
| 00:21:47 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Since Minecraft has `VarInt`s which means the size isn't known until you read the bytes |
| 00:21:56 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Beef talked about it yesterday when sans-io came up |
| 00:24:20 | FromDiscord | <leorize> so ask for more bytes |
| 00:24:29 | FromDiscord | <leorize> return a "need bytes" event |
| 00:24:42 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> In reply to @leorize "so ask for more": Which is why I'm using the callback |
| 00:24:45 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> In reply to @leorize "return a "need bytes"": I can do that |
| 00:24:57 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Result types would be suitable here, I'd imagine |
| 00:25:03 | FromDiscord | <leorize> don't do callback, tell the caller what they need |
| 00:25:12 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Alright! |
| 00:27:13 | FromDiscord | <leorize> but shouldn't you be buffering a bunch of bytes? |
| 00:27:14 | FromDiscord | <leorize> it's inefficient to read n \< 4k bytes at a time |
| 00:29:29 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Unless you have a incorrectly formatted packet the entirety of your message should be received and in the buffer afaik |
| 00:30:11 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Atleast if you read all the available data |
| 00:33:54 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> In reply to @leorize "but shouldn't you be": Wdym? |
| 00:34:27 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> MC formats packets as VarInt (id), VarInt (length), <length> bytes |
| 00:34:42 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> So that's the only time I'd be needing to request bytes individually |
| 00:41:18 | FromDiscord | <leorize> read as much as you can |
| 00:41:24 | FromDiscord | <leorize> then parse |
| 00:42:46 | FromDiscord | <leorize> the length tells you how many bytes following should be interpreted as varint |
| 00:42:58 | FromDiscord | <leorize> not how many bytes should you read |
| 00:43:48 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Wait MC uses variable length ints but uses an entire byte for length? |
| 00:44:53 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> In reply to @leorize "not how many bytes": What? |
| 00:45:14 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> The length is for how many bytes belong to the packet |
| 00:46:11 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Wait MC uses variable": No it's the id of the packet as a VarInt, then the length of the packet data as a VarInt |
| 00:46:15 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Right but if you read all available data to the buffer you only have an issue if there is a malformed packet |
| 00:47:18 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Your buffer should never have a unfinished packet as far as I know |
| 00:47:58 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Though I'm just an evolved monkey at a keyboard so there should be a lot of salt |
| 00:48:20 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> That's... A true assumption to be fair, if that assumption is correct then I don't need to do what I'm doing since it's already implemented |
| 01:03:33 | FromDiscord | <leorize> your packet is just a framing rule |
| 01:03:48 | FromDiscord | <leorize> it doesn't mean anything more than that |
| 01:04:09 | FromDiscord | <leorize> clients will send data in a stream, your job is to make sense of it |
| 01:04:55 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> If I'm using non-blocking io, my concern is I don't want to lose data because I've read too much and don't need it |
| 01:05:19 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> So just requesting more bytes is probably what I'll do |
| 01:05:39 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> If you return the length used and the event you suddenly do not have the read issue |
| 01:05:54 | FromDiscord | <leorize> what does it even mean to read too much? |
| 01:06:35 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> They mean they attempt to read a var int but it is an invalid varint and now their api is in a bad state |
| 01:06:45 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> ^^^ |
| 01:06:54 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> In reply to @Elegantbeef "*If you return the": I don't understand |
| 01:06:57 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> They're imagining the case where you read `0xff 0xff` and you're at the end of the stream |
| 01:07:46 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> In reply to @Elegantbeef "They're imagining the case": Yeah, seems to be a possibility with how MC sends packets according to the people in the MC protocol discord |
| 01:09:25 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> If you return the amount of bytes you read from the buffer and the error state from the procedure you do not ever have a case where you consumed incorrect data |
| 01:09:59 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> think about it if you attempt to read a packet id but there is not enough data you emit a `(0, NeedData)` then you user code goes "Oh we need more data to continue so we read more to the buffer" |
| 01:10:13 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Ooooh |
| 01:10:21 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Okay that makes sense now, thank you |
| 01:10:46 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> My brain sucks at interpreting info so thanks for being patient |
| 01:11:58 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> I still say it's likely a non issue as if you read the entirety of data waiting your packets will be fully there |
| 01:12:17 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> You never receive a partial packet |
| 01:13:00 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> While packets are in the process of being sent though? Ah example would be with chunk data since that can be large |
| 01:13:01 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Minecraft uses TCP on top of it iirc |
| 01:13:14 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Yeah it does |
| 01:13:17 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> The entire message will be together |
| 01:13:35 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Atleast if I'm remembering how sockets work |
| 01:14:10 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Unless we're talking about super large packets that need multiple sends and to be recombined |
| 01:14:35 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Yeaaah |
| 01:14:48 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Likely a non-issue for the most part but better to be safe |
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| 01:36:05 | FromDiscord | <sanspapyrus683> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#pasty=zeBhdnPzhdeJ |
| 01:36:29 | FromDiscord | <sanspapyrus683> any way to get like c++ behavior where nim auto-assigns a value of 0 |
| 01:37:09 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> use a CountTable instead |
| 01:40:46 | FromDiscord | <sanspapyrus683> 1. tysm!↵2. why does it say you're a bot what |
| 01:41:10 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> It's a bridge to Matrix |
| 01:42:25 | FromDiscord | <sanspapyrus683> oh cool |
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| 05:32:08 | FromDiscord | <__nycto__> I think I know the answer to this, but I’m going to ask anyway: is it possible to mark a global variable as gcsafe at the declaration instead of the usage? |
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| 05:44:40 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Nope |
| 05:44:54 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Either pass it as a parameter or cry in global memory usage |
| 05:47:22 | FromDiscord | <__nycto__> My tears shall be ones and zeroes |
| 05:54:09 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> On the plus side you can always make a template inside the proc that wraps access with the cast |
| 06:14:45 | FromDiscord | <girvo> Anyone know the best way to deal with/represent BigDecimal Java numbers/postgres `numeric(precision, scale)` numbers?↵↵Trying to filter out uint64's that are bigger than our `numeric(19, 3)` (or `BigDecimal(19.3)` in the Java API side |
| 06:15:35 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> https://github.com/status-im/nim-stint ? |
| 06:16:31 | FromDiscord | <girvo> Its for the server side so stack/heap doesn't worry me, but I'll take a look |
| 06:17:03 | FromDiscord | <girvo> I think I just need to work out what the maximum value is for numeric(19, 3) and then just do a uint64 `<` comparison in this case |
| 06:17:47 | FromDiscord | <girvo> We're getting uint64 data via Modbus RTU, and sending it to our Java API via JSON -- which can sometimes send a number bigger than what the Java API and database will accept |
| 06:19:00 | FromDiscord | <girvo> Though stint looks very useful for some other stuff haha, so thanks for that one |
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| 07:05:25 | FromDiscord | <ezquerra> Is there a way to check at compile time if a procedure is called with one of its arguments being "static"? I know that you can declare a proc argument as static, and then nim will enforce at compile time that the value of the argument is known at compile time. Is there a way to _not_ declare an argument as static, but do something special at compile time _if_ the argument happens to be static? |
| 07:06:36 | FromDiscord | <odexine> Overloading? |
| 07:06:56 | FromDiscord | <odexine> I don’t know if static counts in overloading |
| 07:09:32 | FromDiscord | <ezquerra> Thanks, I'll need to check if that works. Is that the only way? Overloading doubles the amount of functions you must declare (i.e. you now have 2 versions of the function) so if you have many functions that you want to change in this way in could be inconvenient (compared to a `when arg is static` if that were possible) |
| 07:11:03 | FromDiscord | <odexine> I don’t think you can know whether an argument is static at the call side |
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| 07:18:05 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#pasty=JwKenMTDOzHp |
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| 07:45:36 | FromDiscord | <albassort> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#pasty=zvMeXXLJudKv |
| 07:45:38 | FromDiscord | <albassort> this is new |
| 07:45:47 | FromDiscord | <albassort> was compiling before |
| 07:46:09 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Yea before it was wrong |
| 07:46:13 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> drop the `{}` |
| 07:46:43 | FromDiscord | <albassort> but they look nice |
| 07:47:05 | FromDiscord | <albassort> they kinda make dont make much sense tho |
| 07:47:32 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> They make sense if you have 2^64 bits of memory sitting there and want a set |
| 07:48:42 | FromDiscord | <albassort> my pc only has (2^64)-1 |
| 07:48:59 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Sucks to suck |
| 08:26:55 | FromDiscord | <pedogirl> sent a long message, see https://pasty.ee/pufuaRlXpffs |
| 08:27:03 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> <@&371760044473319454> |
| 08:27:10 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> What the fuck |
| 08:27:21 | FromDiscord | <pedogirl> do you like chíld pórn ? |
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| 09:00:06 | Amun-Ra | admins? |
| 09:07:25 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> FFS.. |
| 09:10:24 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> In reply to @Amun-Ra "admins?": Is there anything IRC specific? |
| 09:11:06 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> I think we've managed to ban and clear everything on the Discord/Matrix side |
| 09:13:07 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> If anyone wants a project by the way I'd love a Matrix bot which listened for bans and then banned and removed everything from that user across rooms |
| 09:13:25 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> Currently it's a very tedious, error prone, and manual process to ban someone |
| 09:20:04 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> If mjolnir is setup that's doable |
| 09:21:09 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Atleast on the matrix side the bridge needs to properly propagate deletions |
| 09:22:09 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> It'd just be `!mjolnir ban user ...` then `!mjolnir redact ...` |
| 09:24:37 | Amun-Ra | pmunch: sadly, I don't think there is… |
| 09:25:04 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> It'd also allow having a joint ban list with other servers to reduce spam further |
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| 09:48:22 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> We have Mjølnir set up.. |
| 09:48:41 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> But I don't think anyone really knows how it works or how to use it |
| 09:48:58 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> !mjolnir help |
| 09:51:51 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> I tried to figure it out at some point, but never managed. |
| 09:53:29 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> https://github.com/matrix-org/mjolnir/blob/main/docs/moderators.md#quick-usage did you follow this? |
| 09:54:45 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> I literally just found that, not sure if it existed last time I looked at this |
| 09:54:54 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> !mjolnir rules |
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| 10:58:15 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Sort of tempted to do a macro that uses arrays of arrays to store objects and field data now :P |
| 10:58:30 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Or seqs of seqs |
| 11:05:37 | FromDiscord | <odexine> Why? |
| 11:16:40 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> hello guys |
| 11:17:34 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> just a little question, how many bytes would you allocate on the stack in one go (an array or a really big object) until you go "yeah, that goes on the heap" ? |
| 11:19:10 | FromDiscord | <odexine> I don’t know, a few kilobytes! |
| 11:19:13 | FromDiscord | <odexine> ? |
| 11:19:14 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> I need to define a threshold generally saying `if size > threshold: malloc; else: ...` |
| 11:19:52 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> i see 🙂 |
| 11:20:27 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> I was going for 2.6kB |
| 11:21:15 | FromDiscord | <0ffh> That seem like a very specific number, may I ask your reason? |
| 11:22:31 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> my own experience and profiling that showed me user inputs and interacting with api and parsing specific data rarely needed to exceed 2kB |
| 11:23:11 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> + 0.6 is a additional margin |
| 11:23:17 | FromDiscord | <nnsee> In reply to @ieltan "just a little question,": i mean that's dependent on a lot of things, the lifetime of the object being one thing for example |
| 11:25:25 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> In reply to @nnsee "i mean that's dependent": fair enough, i am currently trying to implement a flexible array that benefits from optimizing "small" seq by allocating on the stack instead |
| 11:25:40 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> and if it reaches a certain threshold it would reallocate on the heap |
| 11:26:46 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> surprisingly i didnt find sometime like this yet on Nimble except https://github.com/bpr/vla which is very barebones |
| 11:27:06 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> (edit) "sometime" => "something" |
| 11:27:41 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> There was some work on that for strings |
| 11:27:54 | FromDiscord | <pmunch> Short string of optimisation |
| 11:30:48 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> Right, from the sounds of it SSO is similar but i'm not familiar with the theory behind it but the implementation seems to ressemble what i am trying to do with a "general purpose" (not really) array custom array. |
| 11:31:16 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> (edit) removed "array" |
| 11:42:40 | FromDiscord | <ieltan> How does an implementation of SSO determines the ideal threshold at which it should allocate on the heap ? |
| 11:44:04 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> In reply to @odexine "Why?": Bored, and someone was looking for that before |
| 11:46:47 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Also I wonder if there's any use to making Nim's compilation process multithreaded, but that seems pretty hard to do with the AST symbol resolution stuff |
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| 16:17:03 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> how long does it take to learn nim and actually work on a project, if you practice and learn daily for 3+ hours? |
| 16:17:52 | FromDiscord | <odexine> depends on the proejct size? |
| 16:19:04 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> what if they were small ones, like 2d and 3d games, and web sites or apps? |
| 16:24:23 | FromDiscord | <isaacpaul> accurate estimates are probably one of the most difficult things to do in the field of software engineering. |
| 16:26:41 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> In reply to @isaacpaul "accurate estimates are probably": i see, but on average, how long? |
| 16:28:51 | FromDiscord | <isaacpaul> If you're a complete beginner and following a tutorial. Then technically you're working on a project. ↵I'm assuming you mean how long until I will be somewhat 'productive' and 'capable' in the language. That could be a few weeks to a few months as a complete beginner depending on how talented you are. |
| 16:28:59 | FromDiscord | <jviega> Have you ever programmed?? |
| 16:29:53 | FromDiscord | <jviega> Honestly, Nim is cool, but there is much more content to help beginners for many other languages, like Python |
| 16:29:59 | FromDiscord | <␀ Array 🇵🇸 🍉> also depends on previous exp and motovation↵(@isaacpaul) |
| 16:31:45 | FromDiscord | <␀ Array 🇵🇸 🍉> id personally recommend learning an easier langauge (like js) first then nim if you are completely new to programming |
| 16:32:42 | FromDiscord | <␀ Array 🇵🇸 🍉> lots of progeamming knowledge transfers when switching langauges and even libraries carry over to nim |
| 16:33:04 | FromDiscord | <isaacpaul> Yea probably. My first language was Basic then GML (game maker) then finally c++ |
| 16:34:51 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> In reply to @jviega "Have you ever programmed??": yea, been 4 years |
| 16:36:04 | FromDiscord | <jviega> Well, if you're familiar w/ a game engine that is wrapped already, I assume you'd be fine. I know there's a Godot wrapping |
| 16:36:50 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> In reply to @jviega "Well, if you're familiar": nope, i have tried my best to avoid game engines lol, might start soon tho |
| 16:37:52 | FromDiscord | <ikeepgettingfuckingtermed> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#pasty=XLefxeCJhZMQ |
| 16:41:41 | FromDiscord | <jviega> Well I'd probably pick a language you know better first. Easier than learning two major platforms at once |
| 16:44:32 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> In reply to @jviega "Well I'd probably pick": im quite new to nim, so i dont know it better |
| 16:46:15 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> so i should avoid nim? |
| 16:53:28 | FromDiscord | <jviega> Given the lack of resources for helping new people learn what you're trying to learn, probably. |
| 16:57:39 | FromDiscord | <that_dude.> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#pasty=YdxrrCIrmvHq |
| 17:34:48 | FromDiscord | <saint.___.> In reply to @marioboi3112 "so i should avoid": I think you can start with nim it's fine |
| 17:35:02 | FromDiscord | <saint.___.> Depends on the project you're trying to do though I guess |
| 17:36:41 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> In reply to @saint.___. "Depends on the project": what could be some exceptions? |
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| 17:37:15 | FromDiscord | <saint.___.> No idea really |
| 17:37:25 | FromDiscord | <saint.___.> Like if you want to make a mobile app or something |
| 17:37:30 | FromDiscord | <saint.___.> For example |
| 17:38:38 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> sorry if i'm getting annoying guys, bear with me, just wanted to know a bit more about the pros and cons of nim before i dive in 😅 |
| 17:38:56 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> In reply to @saint.___. "Like if you want": so you can't do that in nim? |
| 17:41:55 | FromDiscord | <␀ Array 🇵🇸 🍉> its possible to do it but it may be more work than learning kotlin/java/swift/objc and using that for mobile platforms↵(@marioboi3112) |
| 17:42:33 | FromDiscord | <␀ Array 🇵🇸 🍉> those lanagauges also have better resources |
| 17:44:40 | FromDiscord | <␀ Array 🇵🇸 🍉> android\: https://nim-lang.github.io/Nim/nimc.html#crossminuscompilation-for-androidios\: https://nim-lang.github.io/Nim/nimc.html#crossminuscompilation-for-ios |
| 17:44:47 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> In reply to @␀ Array 🇵🇸 🍉 "its possible to do": i see, have you heard of this lib tho https://github.com/iffy/wiish |
| 17:45:42 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> seems like its on alpha tho |
| 17:46:31 | FromDiscord | <␀ Array 🇵🇸 🍉> i haven't, sad it doesnt support the wii↵(@marioboi3112) |
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| 17:50:03 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Oh something fun I learnt recently, apparently Raylib can be compiled to the Wii |
| 17:50:19 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Apparently, if my memory is correct |
| 17:50:20 | FromDiscord | <marioboi3112> In reply to @␀ Array 🇵🇸 🍉 "i haven't, sad it": lol, dont know why you would be sad if it doesnt support wii when you are targeting mobile devices |
| 17:50:50 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Ah, it worked on the N64, so probably does work on the Wii |
| 17:50:58 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Ray pinged everyone for it, that was pretty neat |
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| 19:52:10 | FromDiscord | <0x42656e> In reply to @ikeepgettingfuckingtermed "hey, i need to": Hi, maybe this will help you: https://nim-lang.org/docs/httpclient.html#code |
| 20:00:16 | NimEventer | New thread by xioren: Nim procedure args vs C and the need for pointers., see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/11147 |
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| 20:56:13 | arkanoid | funny, my program works full speed in release, but crawls to sluggish speed with danger. I have no logic describing this |
| 21:05:30 | FromDiscord | <morgan> so cstring becomes a char pointer, right? is there another compat type that handles char arrays as a value type? like a char[64] or whatever not a pointer to that |
| 21:06:01 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#pasty=PYRtVUKkZDEw |
| 21:07:17 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> That test + this file: https://github.com/Nimberite-Development/ModernNet/blob/master/src/modernnet/io.nim#L82 + this function https://github.com/Nimberite-Development/ModernNet/blob/master/src/modernnet/buffer.nim#L67 seem to be the only culprits I can spot |
| 21:07:46 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Though, I think it's likely the function in `io.nim` that I'm not seeing the logic error in |
| 21:07:56 | FromDiscord | <intellij_gamer> In reply to @morganalyssa "so cstring becomes a": `array[64, char]` should be that type I think |
| 21:08:29 | FromDiscord | <morgan> yeah im just wondering if there's something that makes it a little easier to interop with normal nim strings, i could write my own procs for that |
| 21:08:52 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> In reply to @morganalyssa "yeah im just wondering": Use `openArray[char]` where you'd normally use a string type |
| 21:09:39 | FromDiscord | <intellij_gamer> If only strutils used openArray 😔 |
| 21:09:48 | FromDiscord | <morgan> tho probably all i need to do is convert string to array of chars |
| 21:16:59 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Patito tried 😄↵(@intellij_gamer) |
| 22:02:57 | arkanoid | I've type-refactored my code, it compiles just as before, everything went smooth apparently ... but now malebolgia goes deadlock lol |
| 22:08:44 | arkanoid | nevemind, result seq for malebolgia doesn't like newSeqWithCap |
| 22:24:35 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> I am so fed up now |
| 22:24:44 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> My code is causing so much headache... |
| 22:24:56 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> I'd rather use the callback method I was gonna use before :/ |
| 22:36:30 | FromDiscord | <Elegantbeef> Then use it |
| 22:44:54 | FromDiscord | <Robyn [She/Her]> Wouldn't be following the philosophy :/ |
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