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| 01:02:54 | PMunch | ftsf, ftsf_ you there? |
| 01:03:14 | ftsf_ | good morning! |
| 01:03:51 | PMunch | Or good night :P |
| 01:03:55 | PMunch | It's 3AM here |
| 01:04:28 | PMunch | Just wanted to check in with you if you had tested my pool implementation :) |
| 01:04:29 | ftsf_ | just arrived at the office here |
| 01:04:35 | ftsf_ | i haven't had a chance to play with it yet |
| 01:04:41 | PMunch | Oh wow, timezones eh |
| 01:04:44 | ftsf_ | went to sleep just after you dropped it last night |
| 01:05:20 | PMunch | Haha, that was earlier today for me :P |
| 01:05:33 | PMunch | Didn't realize you were that far away |
| 01:05:40 | ftsf_ | Sydney, au =) |
| 01:05:48 | ftsf_ | pretty far from most places |
| 01:06:08 | PMunch | Nice, Tromsø Norway here. Pretty far from stuff as well :P |
| 01:06:20 | ftsf_ | indeed, poles apart |
| 01:07:20 | PMunch | pastebin.com/npv13Hpt |
| 01:07:27 | PMunch | Added some comments on how the functions work :) |
| 01:07:34 | PMunch | Thought that might be helpful |
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| 12:43:36 | dom96 | https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/nim/updates/3-engaging-with-our-community |
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| 12:48:42 | jeffc | Hey Araq: I saw in https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/4437 something about replacing gc:none with gc:stack? Could you elaborate on that a bit? Are there plans to slim it down? Currently turning it on absolutely destroys the size of my firmware |
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| 13:08:43 | Araq | jeffc: really? ouch. gc:stack shouldn't really produce much code |
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| 13:15:43 | Salewski | Dom, the phrase "is a perfect way to learn Nim" may be a bit of a exaggeration. I would always recommend starting with the tutorial and other resources listed under "learning". I think that is even true for most languages. |
| 13:18:01 | Salewski | The last chapter was really interesting for me, because I have never done web development before. But that chapter is more about web and databases, not so much about Nim learning :-) |
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| 13:26:33 | gdelazzari | jeffc: that happens also to me when using gc:stack. In the generated stdlib_system.c I have "typedef NF TY24004[4194304];" and as expected ld complains: "region `RAM' overflowed by 33539740 bytes" |
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| 13:36:12 | Araq | gdelazzari: that only means that you didn't patch osalloc.nim line 154 |
| 13:39:29 | gdelazzari | Araq could you please explain how do I patch, modify, adapt, etc... all these files? Also, when you said that I need to adapt the core of Nim to my device, what do you mean? Do I have to change these files (what files exactly?) in the Nim compiler source and recompile a different Nim compiler for my platform? |
| 13:42:15 | Araq | you can copy the stdlib to your project dir, modify it and set --lib so that it's used instead |
| 13:42:33 | Araq | you can also create PRs against nim devel. |
| 13:42:52 | cheatfate | Araq, maybe we can get option for compiler to control this? |
| 13:43:06 | Araq | control what? |
| 13:43:17 | Araq | some devices have no OS, but plenty of RAM |
| 13:43:23 | Araq | other devices have no RAM. |
| 13:43:57 | cheatfate | and we can make control of 1024 |
| 13:44:00 | cheatfate | `1024` value |
| 13:44:13 | cheatfate | so people can adjust it without clones of stdlib |
| 13:44:31 | Araq | yeah, it that would be the only problem, we could read it from an env var |
| 13:44:44 | Araq | or introduce --define:foo=val |
| 13:45:17 | gdelazzari | What's exactly that huge value I see? Is that the 'Nim stack' size? |
| 13:45:43 | gdelazzari | I mean, stack/heap |
| 13:46:23 | Araq | some arbitrary heap size |
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| 13:50:27 | gdelazzari | Ok now I see the osalloc line you pointed out, but I don't understand what's PageSize and where it comes from, 4194304/1024 = 4096 means I have a 4k PageSize..? What's that...? My microcontroller has just 16k of RAM so adjusting that would even be better to save memory |
| 13:55:07 | Araq | so give it a size of 1K |
| 13:55:07 | cheatfate | Araq, and i think PageSize must be tweaked too |
| 13:58:08 | gdelazzari | I also think that it would be better to have the possibilty to tweak these values :) I don't think that cloning the entire stdlib just to change a couple of values is the best thing... |
| 14:00:55 | jeffc | Araq: Thanks for pointing that out. I'll try to come up with a generic patch so that these values can be (optionally) adjusted at compile time via a flag. |
| 14:01:11 | jeffc | gdelazzari: Unless you're already on it ;) |
| 14:02:29 | cheatfate | `Error: object constructor needs an object type` for line `result = Selector[T]()` |
| 14:02:42 | cheatfate | wtf? |
| 14:03:27 | gdelazzari | jeffc no, sorry, I still don't have a complete understanding of what's going on in the Nim compiler :D I just discovered Nim a couple of months ago and I find it an amazing language, for now I'm just trying to use it on microcontrollers |
| 14:04:27 | gdelazzari | However can someone explain me what's exactly 'PageSize'? |
| 14:04:50 | jeffc | gdelazzari: You might be interested in this: https://github.com/Jeff-Ciesielski/narm |
| 14:05:27 | jeffc | still a work in progress, but it is a working example of nim running on a microcontroller with a coroutine based RTOS |
| 14:06:15 | jeffc | Trying to sort out these last issues so that the required core functionality can just be installed with nimble |
| 14:06:19 | gdelazzari | What ARM mcus are you using? Maybe STM32? |
| 14:06:33 | jeffc | STM32f072 is what that targets |
| 14:06:50 | ephja | "result = findFirstFileW(newWideCString(a), b)" this takes up quite a big chunk of the CPU time, but I wonder if the double allocation will make that much of a difference. I wonder how TreeSize calculates the sizes so fast |
| 14:07:02 | jeffc | I'm also using Infineon XMC4000 series for another project (but can't open source a lot of that) |
| 14:08:15 | gdelazzari | I'm using the exactly same microcontroller. Take a look here https://github.com/gdelazzari/STM32Tool, I'm thinking of integrating Nim support on my tool. I'll check out your work for sure |
| 14:11:48 | ephja | garbage collection seems to have been the bottleneck though. disabling it reduces the time taken from 600s to about 20s |
| 14:12:08 | dom96 | Salewski: I hope you read IRC logs. I honestly don't think it's an exaggeration, Nim in Action contains far more details about Nim than the official tutorial currently does. The book is designed to teach through examples, I'm sure Chapter 7 has taught you things you don't already know. |
| 14:12:09 | Araq | gdelazzari: just grep for PageSize, unless you use the real full Gc, it can be any value really |
| 14:14:17 | gdelazzari | So actually, with 1024 * PageSize Nim was allocating 1024 pages whenever needed, is that right? If I change PageSize and that 1024 value I can change the memory Nim allocates when out of heap? |
| 14:14:49 | ephja | It would still be nice to avoid the temporary nim string though. I'll have to investigate it |
| 14:15:00 | ephja | oh and GC_fullCollect doesn't like SIGINT |
| 14:15:31 | ephja | hm wait a second |
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| 14:18:43 | Araq | gdelazzari: no it uses a 4MB sized global variable as its heap |
| 14:18:59 | Araq | because 'malloc' might not be available. |
| 14:19:33 | gdelazzari | So there is no way to use malloc()? I mean, calling it when more heap is required |
| 14:19:57 | Araq | there is -d:useMalloc |
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| 14:21:41 | gdelazzari | Does it work with --gc:stack? Because even with that I have that initial heap global variable |
| 14:23:19 | Araq | probably not |
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| 14:24:42 | gdelazzari | So with what GC will that work? With gc:none Nim asks to implement newObj |
| 14:26:16 | jeffc | gdelazzari: If I may... why are you trying to use dynamically created objects in firmware? |
| 14:28:32 | gdelazzari | I never use dynamic allocation on fw, obviously (unless I have to allocate some memory at the very beginning and never touch malloc() and free() again). But because I'm trying to completely port Nim, I think I'll have to allow users to use dynamic allocation if they're crazy enough |
| 14:29:40 | gdelazzari | jeffc: Do you think I shouldn't directly give the ability to allocate memory? |
| 14:29:44 | jeffc | I wouldn't |
| 14:30:06 | jeffc | If someone wants to get clever and wrap their own slab allocator or something, more power to them |
| 14:30:26 | jeffc | but IMO the biggest feature of nim for use in firmware is the additional safety it brings to the table |
| 14:30:30 | jeffc | (compared to C) |
| 14:30:47 | jeffc | Building in allocator support sort of goes agains that IMO |
| 14:31:30 | Salewski | Dom: "Salewski: I hope you read IRC logs." From time to time.... Let me say it in other words: Your books teaches advanced topics and application examples. "perfect way to learn Nim" would indicate to me to START learning Nim with that book, what I can not really recommend. I would have used a phrase like "the book provides you with a deeper understanding of Nim based on many real word examples." |
| 14:32:37 | Salewski | s/word/world/ |
| 14:32:54 | gdelazzari | jeffc yes you're right, I didn't think about that. But what if someone wants to use an already made library that uses dynamic alloc. which is well written to be memory-safe and they can't? Is that legit? |
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| 14:34:55 | ephja | so it takes about 10 minutes to collect 1.000.000 or so strings |
| 14:36:39 | ephja | the OS will have to deal with that :p |
| 14:39:29 | dom96 | Salewski: Why don't you stick around for a while so that I can reply to you? My book certainly doesn't teach advanced topics, it starts by explaining the basics and the level of difficulty rises a bit with each chapter. The book is meant to teach you Nim, it assumes you have no knowledge of Nim and it is my hope that people can learn Nim without any prior Nim knowledge using it. Why do you think that is not the case? |
| 14:39:43 | dom96 | *teach only advanced topics |
| 14:40:54 | jeffc | gdelazzari: I suppose it's a question of what you want to support and TBH it starts getting into "holy war/ religious argument" territory. IMO after initialization, it's never acceptable to use any sort of dynamic memory (and even then it's only to allow stack creation for an RTOS). BUT, in a world of arduinos and python on microcontrollers, if you're trying to attract ...casual users, it wouldn't be a bad selling point |
| 14:41:54 | jeffc | Every time I hear "dynamic memory" and "microcontroller", my mind immediately springs to Toyota's unintended acceleration bug, and I want to facepalm myself into a coma ;) |
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| 14:59:26 | gdelazzari | jeffc: I totally agree with you. The fact is that for my project that, as you said, tries to attract 'arduino and python' people to move to ARMs, it would probably be better to allow them to do whatever they want, even if they're shooting on their own foots. But I think I'll change my mind. |
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| 15:09:45 | Araq | well we surely need to ensure that things are smooth out of the box and not that people wonder how/if they need to implement copyString or whatever. |
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| 15:14:53 | Salewski | Dom, I had to do some other work away from computer... |
| 15:17:46 | Salewski | Do you really think your book can replace the tutorials, the niminxminutes, Gorans and Denis blogs and all that what was already available before the book? And maybe also large parts of the manual? |
| 15:19:28 | Salewski | I can not really believe that, only 300 pages, with some extended real world examples, web, database, nimble and all that. |
| 15:20:01 | jeffc | Araq: Is there a typical way to pass in compile time constant that map to values (the equivalent of the -D flag in GCC)? -d seems to only accept a symbol, and I'm not sure putenv is what I'm looking for. |
| 15:20:34 | dom96 | Salewski: Of course not. It doesn't offer everything that does resources offer, but it does offer enough to give you the knowledge to use Nim. |
| 15:20:39 | dom96 | *that those |
| 15:22:17 | PMunch | Do you get an editor by the way when you're publishing this way? I've only read the first chapter but it seemed a bit rough around the edges |
| 15:22:19 | Salewski | OK, personally I would avoid the term "perfect". And maybe add links to the other learning resources also. |
| 15:23:09 | dom96 | Salewski: But why? The whole point is to advertise the book |
| 15:23:37 | dom96 | Salewski: Writing "The book is on sale, but you can also use the tutorial or any of these resources so who cares" would be silly. |
| 15:24:06 | dom96 | PMunch: Yep, I do. What seemed rough? |
| 15:24:56 | PMunch | Just a couple of sections that had some weird phrasings and such. And it seemed a bit repetitious at points. |
| 15:26:04 | PMunch | I'm typing this while on a boat with crappy WiFi so I can't really pull up the chapter and find the exact parts right now but I can drop you some notes later if you'd like |
| 15:26:16 | dom96 | PMunch: Yeah, that would be awesome :) |
| 15:27:38 | ephja | I would use a really long ethernet cable |
| 15:29:41 | PMunch | Well it's a ~3 hour ride on a pretty fast boat so it would need to be one hell of a cable :P |
| 15:32:46 | Arrrr | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/4437#issuecomment-230106924 |
| 15:33:42 | Arrrr | What's the advantage of using that GC over just disabling any GC ? |
| 15:34:09 | Arrrr | I mean, what if i want to be alerted when i'm using traced references? |
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| 16:24:38 | PMunch | Hmm, interesting |
| 16:25:23 | dom96 | What's interesting? |
| 16:25:27 | PMunch | I'm cross compiling Nim with SDL to run on PC and Android (along with iOS but as I don't havea device that code is untested) |
| 16:26:03 | PMunch | And SDL reports finger down events on my laptop touchscreen in pixels, but on device as ratios |
| 16:34:31 | PMunch | Well, boatride is over. Got to go |
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| 16:40:55 | Araq | Arrrr: the advantage is that more code compiles. |
| 16:45:42 | Arrrr | Why ? |
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| 16:51:42 | cheatfate | Araq, i'm also like the idea to have possibility to turn off GC |
| 16:54:11 | Araq | gc:stack is no GC. it's already "turning off" the GC. it replaces it with region based memory management. |
| 16:55:41 | cheatfate | And looks like this region of memory allocated inside of executable... |
| 16:55:58 | Araq | not necessarily. |
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| 16:57:31 | cheatfate | then compiler needs option for 0 size region |
| 16:58:38 | cheatfate | or maybe its better to have overloaded function which returns region of memory? |
| 16:59:15 | cheatfate | so for projects with less memory you can overload something like getMemory() |
| 16:59:30 | cheatfate | and allocated memory by yourself |
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| 17:10:46 | Araq | yeah well, we already give users the opportunity via panicoverride.nim |
| 17:11:12 | Araq | we should just expand this and add mmap |
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| 17:30:09 | cheatfate | Araq, my blue dream is to make 20kb executables with Nim :) |
| 17:30:21 | cheatfate | or better 3kb :) |
| 17:30:46 | Araq | 20kB works for me |
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| 17:57:41 | jeffc | My firmware images (including an RTOS) are 16K in nim |
| 17:57:57 | jeffc | I think it's doable |
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| 18:00:09 | gdelazzari | jeffc how did you solve "system module needs 'copyString'" on your project when even just concatenating two strings? |
| 18:00:16 | jeffc | I don't concat strings :) |
| 18:00:18 | gdelazzari | Did you reimplement the stdlib? |
| 18:00:31 | jeffc | I just wrapped memcpy and used cstrings |
| 18:00:36 | jeffc | if I absolutely had to |
| 18:00:50 | gdelazzari | How do you write to UART? |
| 18:01:23 | gdelazzari | Did you just wrap printf? |
| 18:01:26 | jeffc | yep |
| 18:01:34 | jeffc | I export a _write function from nim |
| 18:02:41 | gdelazzari | I understand we should go really barebone on an MCU, but don't you think that having Nim's 'echo' working is... necessary? |
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| 18:03:28 | jeffc | If you really feel the need to, but a wrapped printf worked quite well for me |
| 18:03:44 | Araq | 1. --gc:stack allows echo etc. |
| 18:04:03 | Araq | 2. panicoverride doesn't use 'echo', that should give you some hints. |
| 18:04:42 | Araq | what should 'echo' do anyway? the device might not have a screen. or printer or plotter, or file system. |
| 18:05:04 | jeffc | Araq: possible style / future plan issues aside, I think PR 4443 will resolve the gc:stack issue on low end targets |
| 18:05:17 | gdelazzari | Yes that's true, but usually you have a serial connection to the PC you're developing on |
| 18:05:35 | Araq | gdelazzari: yes, but we cannot make all these decisions for you. |
| 18:06:15 | jeffc | Agreed with Araq. If it's a known board config, making that assumption is OK, but what if I'm using JTAG to emulate a filestream? |
| 18:06:43 | jeffc | I think having a really well defined hook for stdio is a better solution |
| 18:07:00 | jeffc | (and with newlib nano, all you have to provide is _read/_write) |
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| 18:07:10 | gdelazzari | Yes I understand, I just asked jeffc about his solution for this 'echo' thing |
| 18:08:20 | gdelazzari | However I noticed that using gc:stack all is working as Araq pointed out, so I think I'll go with that approach (for now= |
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| 18:18:07 | Salewski | I have these two lines of code, looks a bit redundant, but I guess there is no shorter way to express this? |
| 18:18:11 | Salewski | var com, sk, sym, sig, path, lin, col, doc, percent: string |
| 18:18:34 | Salewski | (com, sk, sym, sig, path, lin, col, doc, percent) = line.split('\t') |
| 18:22:52 | Araq | there is let (com, sk, ...) = line.split(...) if only tuple deconstruction would work with 'seq' |
| 18:23:13 | Araq | there is a macro for this in nimble though. or you can write it yourself. macros rule. |
| 18:25:06 | Salewski | Thanks. (I have still to learn using macros...) |
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| 19:26:22 | PMunch | dom96, how's the survey coming along? |
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| 19:26:50 | dom96 | PMunch: Good. Over 500 submissions so far :) |
| 19:27:41 | PMunch | Nice :) |
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| 20:07:12 | cheatfate | dom96, i think you need to write about this in book, https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/4439 |
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| 20:49:45 | dom96 | cheatfate: I'll try to include it in chapter 6 |
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| 21:32:13 | perturbation | hey guys - is it possible to import ospaths (or other modules) in a nimscript nimble file? I'm getting an "Error: cannot open 'ospaths'" message when I try |
| 21:33:11 | perturbation | never mind - I guess it's a known issue (https://github.com/nim-lang/nimble/issues/186) |
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| 22:37:11 | theweirdn8 | ello |
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| 22:42:01 | PMunch | Hi |
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| 22:48:53 | theweirdn8 | so do u work on nim |
| 22:48:56 | theweirdn8 | or u use it? |
| 22:50:32 | PMunch | Mostly use it |
| 22:51:12 | PMunch | But I've found some issues in the sources and had a pull request for one a while back |
| 22:51:29 | PMunch | So I guess I'm technically a contributor |
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| 23:33:47 | derlafff | hi guys. how to use nre module? If I simply replace 'import re' with 'import nre' it fails with |
| 23:33:48 | derlafff | lib/impure/nre.nim(246, 45) Error: undeclared identifier: 'Option' |
| 23:34:05 | derlafff | should I do anything else to make it build? |
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