<< 05-08-2013 >>
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01:53:16skinkittenwho named the language?
02:24:49OnionPKaraq created the language, not 100% sure he named it
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03:55:33reactormonkoh, I broke c2nim with for(n = 0, c = nexttiled(mon->clients); c; c = nexttiled(c->next), n++);
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05:42:56reactormonkwhat's the nimrod-idiomatic way of format strings again?
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08:58:04BitPuffinHey guys!
08:58:25BitPuffinI'm having some trouble here, it's becoming a bit hard to decide where things belong
08:58:42BitPuffinI thought it would be nice to have matrices and vectors in separate files
08:58:52BitPuffinbut they can perform operations on each other
08:59:00BitPuffinlike vector * matrix mul
08:59:12BitPuffinproblem is, does that proc belong in matrix.nim or vector.nim?
08:59:38BitPuffinI'm considering just putting them in the same file, something like linagl/core.nim
09:00:11BitPuffinand then perhaps adding extra files like matrix_utils.nim for a module that constructs rotation matrices etc
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09:00:14BitPuffinand projection
09:00:51BitPuffinwhat do you guys think? is there a better way?
09:01:51BitPuffinanother thing that makes having them in separate modules is nimrods mutually recursive imports
09:02:01BitPuffinif both import each other at the top then they don't import anything
09:04:26Araq_put everything that supports matrix in matrix.nim
09:05:15BitPuffinAraq_: including vector stuff?
09:05:27BitPuffinthat's what I've currently done
09:05:32BitPuffinwhat about quaternions then?
09:05:58Araq_pure vector stuff should be in a vectors module
09:06:03BitPuffinor actually I haven't learned them yet so I don't know if they operate on matrices for example
09:06:07Araq_but matrixes obviously know about vectors
09:06:20Araq_but *shrug* do what suits you
09:06:26BitPuffinyeah
09:06:31BitPuffinthat was exactly my reasoning
09:06:50Araq_the guys that care are likely also the guys who never get anything done at all ;-)
09:07:20BitPuffinturns out though that it probably isn't a problem at all, if you are using both vectors and matrices you have imported both matrices and vectors
09:07:37BitPuffinAraq_: yeah true, sometimes you become sort of perfectionist you know :)
09:08:57BitPuffinthat's also why I won't optimize the stuff with asm yet like Mat2 wanted me to
09:08:58BitPuffinhaha
09:09:07BitPuffinuntil later I mean
09:09:12BitPuffinright now I gotta get done
09:13:45BitPuffinHmm, I think I might have done the reverse thing with the col and row procedures/templates
09:14:03BitPuffinor have I
09:14:40BitPuffinnah it's correct
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09:36:43dom96hello
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09:53:48BitPuffinhey dom96!
09:53:55dom96hey BitPuffin!
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09:54:11BitPuffindom96: what's going on?
09:54:29dom96Not much, really. heh.
09:54:37dom96Just woke up.
09:55:48dom96how's linagl going?
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09:57:24BitPuffindom96: going okay, had a bit of a crisis with weather or not matrices, vectors, quaternions etc should be in separate files or not but I decided to keep it that way with the help of Araq
09:58:46BitPuffinI just made Matrix types public so POST TO REDDIT OMG
09:59:02BitPuffintime to eat a sandwich
09:59:07dom96llol
09:59:30dom96I can see the headlines now:
09:59:40dom96"Linagl's Matrix types become public!"
09:59:50dom96"Developer takes a break to eat a sandwich!"
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10:01:21BitPuffinHahahaha! For sure
10:01:37BitPuffindom96: and then it's a link to the commit
10:01:44BitPuffindom96: and a link to the irc log ;)
10:01:54dom96:D
10:02:32BitPuffindamn, you couldn't link to a specific line in the irc log
10:02:55dom96yeah, we need to support that!
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10:03:00dom96And reddit about it!
10:03:27BitPuffindom96: really though matrices aren't all that far away from being complete in terms of basic operations
10:03:33BitPuffindom96: yeah for sure!
10:03:57dom96in all seriousness, you should write a blog post about it and post it to reddit.
10:04:16BitPuffinAbout exporting the matrix types?
10:04:22dom96lol
10:05:01dom96About finishing linagl and how much you love Nimrod.
10:05:40BitPuffinWtf, how did bitbucket figure out that EXetoC on github is EXetoC on bitbucket :D
10:05:58BitPuffindom96: yeah possibly, maybe when I get my website finished (bitpuffin.com
10:05:59BitPuffin9
10:06:00BitPuffin)
10:06:01BitPuffin*
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10:06:44BitPuffinor maybe I'll just post to tumblr or something
10:06:50dom96yeah, why not.
10:06:59dom96Does tumblr support code snippets?
10:07:09BitPuffinyou could embed gists or something I guess
10:07:25dom96ahh
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10:35:03BitPuffinhi EXetoC!
10:35:56BitPuffinEXetoC: What exactly are you working on with nimrod, I think you mentioned that you were working on something awesome a few days ago
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10:50:44EXetoCBitPuffin: It was probably not in a serious context. are you thinking of the time when I mentioned single-colored widgets? :>
10:51:26BitPuffinEXetoC: hmm dunno! Do you have a project
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11:15:55EXetoCBitPuffin: A 2D engine
11:23:59EXetoCyou prefer hg?
11:36:00BitPuffinEXetoC: cool!
11:36:07BitPuffinEXetoC: I most certainly do
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15:07:20EXetoCdom96: are you going to use OpenGL directly?
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15:10:40dom96EXetoC: yeah, I think so.
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16:13:19NewGuyHowdy doo.
16:13:28dom96hey
16:15:17NewGuyDoes nimrod's sleep() use high-precision? Or does it have the ~15ms error due to Windows' default ticks?
16:16:59dom96good question, for which I don't know the answer.
16:17:54dom96It seems to simply call http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms686298%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
16:19:53NewGuyDamn, yeah that's low-precision.
16:34:43dom96fix it and send a pull request
16:36:47NewGuyCurrently looking around for an alternative (on Windows at least). Haven't found anything short of setBeginPeriod(1) and setEndPeriod(1).
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16:38:55NewGuyInstead I'm just going to go ahead and rely on VSync to handle my idling.
16:39:11dom96what are you coding?
16:39:34NewGuyRight now I'm doing a quick little game to learn my some Nimrod.
16:39:41dom96cool
16:40:29NewGuyYeha, but I've just started moving toward more cross-platform (from Linux-only), so I'm running into annoying Windows bugs.
16:40:38NewGuy#first world problems
16:43:24dom96heh
16:44:02NewGuySo how are you this wonderful day, Dom?
16:44:14dom96i'm pretty good, what about yourself?
16:44:57NewGuyBit drowsing, 5 hours of driving yesterday and looking forward to another 2 today!
16:45:13dom96fun heh
16:53:00NewGuyHow heavy are channels?
16:53:15NewGuyOh, I keep forgetting Nimrod is OSS, I can just go look myself.
16:54:35dom96yes :)
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18:22:58Mat2hi @ all
18:23:51dom96hello Mat2
18:24:04Mat2hi dom96
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20:02:19filwithey dom96
20:02:22filwitjust got your email
20:03:02filwitalso, hello Araq and crew
20:05:38filwithmmm.. #nimrod seems less than lively today
20:07:12Araqhi filwit
20:07:17filwithi :)
20:07:24Araqsometimes we're working on things
20:07:45filwitwell stop being productive and talk on ur irc more!
20:07:51filwit:P
20:08:23OrionPKalready using my lack of productivity to browse reddit when I should be working
20:08:24filwitno, dom just emailed me about the logo license and something about you changing the style restrictions
20:08:44filwitthought i'd stop by and talk to him rather than email
20:08:56filwityes, thank god i never got into reddit
20:11:11*Mat2 study ARM assembly guides (and FASM/ARM)
20:11:52Araqwell the SI feature is up for discussion for now everybody dislikes my enforced style idea
20:12:30Araqwhich is nice so I now know what I shouldn't do at all
20:12:35filwitwhen you first told me about how you wanted to enforce case-sensitivity, i was against it
20:12:42filwitbut now i'm not so sure it's a bad idea
20:13:10filwitthe one thing that really bothers me which Nimrod uses (i'm just going through the forum thread) is the T/P thing
20:13:18Mat2well, I'm always for case insensitivity if I had the choice
20:13:27filwiti know you posted your thoughts about that on the thread though
20:13:58filwitcase insensitivity was... interesting to me about Nimrod
20:14:12filwiti've never used a language that did that before (plus ignore _)
20:14:33Araqit's quite a logical thing to do if you look at what an IDE does for you
20:14:42Araqbut yeah the SI is unique to Nimrod
20:15:05filwitwhich is logic for an IDE?
20:15:11filwitcase sensitive or insensitive?
20:15:17AraqIDE helps you edit the parse trees
20:15:27Araqit might as well render the tree as you prefer
20:15:45Araqand SI enables it to render it your way
20:15:53Araqsince it doesn't affect the semantics
20:15:57filwityes, lol, i had the same idea about a "syntax agnostic" IDE before
20:16:17Araqhowever
20:16:20filwitwhich would display in C-or-Python-or-Whatever style depending on your prefs
20:16:34AraqI think I found a satisfying solution for the P/T stuff
20:16:43filwiti'm interested
20:17:20EXetoCyeah, but it can be optional. but if the IDE is supposed to do it, then it's not going to be statically enforced by the compiler, so I don't know what the complaint it
20:17:40filwit^
20:17:58filwiti need to read Araqs original forum post
20:18:03filwitone sec
20:18:41dom96sorry was away filwit
20:19:04filwithey dom
20:19:11*dom96 reads scroll back
20:19:40Araqthings like Int, File, Socket etc. are clear
20:19:41Araqso the question is what to do with all the types that are not clear
20:19:43Araqand I think the rule should be "in doubt the ref version gets the Typ name and the value type the TypObj name" so we'll get quite some Obj suffixes but then so be it
20:20:29filwit^ is that in response to the T/P thing?
20:20:33Araqyeah
20:20:44filwitokay, what's wrong with 'ref T' again?
20:20:58filwit(not trying to fight, just wondering)
20:21:05Araqit's verbose and doesn't work as soon as you use the type
20:21:12Araqin a type conversion
20:21:19Araqor in the newish type construction expression
20:21:22filwitref rect: Rect :)
20:21:26filwitvar ref: Rect
20:21:37filwitvar rect: Rect ****
20:21:40Araqvar r: ref Rect ?
20:21:45filwitsure
20:21:55filwiti was just shortning the verboseness
20:22:06dom96filwit: I wish you would join sometimes without me having to email you :P
20:22:17filwiteither way, i still prefer that to TRect or PRect
20:22:29AraqI read some D code recently and it's pretty horrible IMHO
20:22:45filwitbecause I have to remember that those two versions exist in the library
20:22:50Araqyou never know if it's a class or a struct and so which semantics it has
20:22:52dom96Having to write 'ref' explicitly all the time would be a bit of a pain.
20:23:02filwityeah, D is really symbol-heavy
20:23:03dom96And we would have more people complaining that Nimrod is too verbose...
20:23:11filwitleast it's not as bad as C#
20:23:16Araqno
20:23:26Araqin C# the default is pretty much the class
20:23:30Araqso it's no big deal here
20:23:31filwitdom, I disagree about having to write 'ref'
20:23:44Araqit's different for D and Nimrod as value types are much more common
20:23:54filwitit's simple to type and universally easy to remember... if that makes sense
20:24:25dom96People coming from the C-world will dislike it because it's not as simple as writing '*'
20:24:32Araqbtw it took me a few months to recognize DateTime is a struct in C#
20:24:41Araqso the problem exists in C# too
20:25:19filwitwell C# is horrible about that (though VS helps with it's color coding)
20:25:26dom96filwit: Also, before I forget. What is the license then?
20:25:45filwitvar x = new DateTime() // heap alloc i think, even though it's a struct
20:25:47filwitsame for D
20:26:04AraqI think you're wrong
20:26:09filwitreally?
20:26:14Araqnew T doesn't heap alloc in C#
20:26:17filwitdom96: whatever you want
20:26:23dom96filwit: cool
20:26:25Araqif it's a struct
20:27:06filwithmmm. well i know it's like that in D
20:27:15filwitand we benched C# before and it was slower
20:27:18EXetoCI don't know if it makes sense to annotate the value type, but maybe I'm just used to * or ref
20:27:39filwitwell... maybe i'm confusing heap alloc with something else...
20:27:44Araqwell it depends of course, EXetoC
20:28:12Araqfor Vector and Matrix I would skip the T and not have the Obj suffix and expect people to know they are value types
20:28:28filwiti think using 'ref' makes much more sense, because: it's one thing to remember
20:28:37filwitthat's my main gripe with T/P
20:28:57filwityou not only have to create the T/P versions to be consistent.. you also have to remember multiple versions of everything
20:29:08EXetoCit's not hard to remember either way. users will encounter it over and over
20:29:15Araqso how do you do PNode(x: 1, y: 2) with 'ref Node'? right now you can't
20:29:29filwitEXetoC: sure, but there will be corner cases
20:29:52Araqthe T/P is everywhere and very very easy to remember
20:29:54filwitAraq: why doesn't ref Node(...) work?
20:29:57dom96The T/P is part of the name, I think it's just as easy to remember as any type name.
20:30:18filwitit's not really about "remembering" what T/P does
20:30:25filwitit's that sometimes it wont be there
20:30:30Araqit's annoying to always argue about what the potential newbie might be confused about
20:30:30filwitand 'ref' is universal
20:30:38filwiti only have to remember one thing for everything
20:30:53EXetoCindeed. they should learn the language
20:30:55Araqfilwit: that's a very theoretical argument though
20:31:01filwitokay Araq, I feel ya, I'm not here to start petty debates
20:31:05dom96You will still have to remember if a certain function takes a 'ref T' or not.
20:31:19filwit(even if that's what always happens when i come around, lol)
20:31:54filwitdom96: yes, but you only have to remember one way to pass a specific type as ref or value
20:31:58Araqwell the only reason to change the T/P stuff is that's admittedly ugly
20:32:02EXetoCjust do whatever you want. the most controversial part right now is the case sensitivity, but like you said, people will argue about all the other stuff either way
20:33:07dom96filwit: oh, is what you're talking about the fact that "PType" and "ref TType" is the same thing and that that is hard to remember?
20:34:40filwitdom96: it's not "hard" to remember... it's "easier" to remember one keyword which applies to all types, than to require: A) the Type creator to make multiple versions, and B) the Type user to _know_ that T/P versions exist in said library
20:34:41Mat2personally, I use prefixes for every variable, constant and type defination. usName for variadic records, cName for constants, fName for flags etc...
20:35:49AraqMat2: that's crazy ;-)
20:36:00filwit^
20:36:02filwit:P
20:36:37filwitthough i do thinks like isCondition or hasSomething for flags
20:36:41EXetoCI think the not stupid version of hungarian notation is fine, whichever it was
20:36:42filwitthings**
20:36:55dom96filwit: I don't think what you suggest will solve B) though. If the library uses a combination of value types and 'ref' types the user will still need to be aware of them.
20:37:55filwitdom96: it still makes it easier for the user to remember how to pass (the type he's using) to those functions which require it by ref
20:38:00filwitdom96: slightly...
20:38:16dom96The user has to type more though :P
20:38:26dom96Arguably a lot more.
20:38:33filwiti think the cleaner syntax pays off in the long run
20:38:44filwitbut that's just an opinion
20:39:29dom96I probably wouldn't mind it. Except for the issues that Araq describes with the construction syntax as well as the cast syntax.
20:39:30Mat2Araq: That's useful because the type of each defination is known by name (so you do not need to reread it though x files just to check up types in lousy type-systems
20:39:32filwitabout the case-sensitivity, personally I like how nimrod has really insensitive functions.. but maybe enforce PascalCase on types?
20:39:39EXetoCagain, this is a basic convention. I know the language now, so I don't have to pause and think about it
20:40:01filwitdom96: i'm not familiar with his arguments for those cases
20:40:01EXetoCfilwit: that was one of the suggestions
20:40:14EXetoCwhich he might've abandoned now
20:40:20filwitEXetoC: okay, didn't fully read the forum yet
20:40:32AraqI only abandoned the enforced style really
20:40:33dom96From my latest post in the forum thread: "Our options seems to be to make the first letter case sensitive, leave everything as it is, or switch to normal case sensitivity without enforced style like in all the other languages. "
20:40:39EXetoCok
20:40:48dom96Perhaps making the first letter case sensitive is a good idea.
20:41:15filwityeah that I can see as a benefit
20:41:29filwitI always do Pascal for types, and camel for funcs/locals
20:41:49Araqit takes away from the "render" feature though
20:41:53filwitbut I know a lot of MS C++/C# guys use Pascal for everything
20:42:18filwitAraq: you mean the IDE being able to control the 'look n feel'?
20:42:19dom96And I would love to have enforcement of PascalCase for types.
20:42:26dom96Like is done in Haskell.
20:42:32Araqfilwit: yeah
20:43:04filwitAraq: didn't you already fix this case: var rect: Rect .... rect.something # local ?
20:43:21filwitAraq: if so, why even fudge with the sensitivity issue?
20:43:48filwitAraq: i didn't really see a explanation for why you wanted to do that in your original post
20:45:31Araqyeah I "fixed" it but it only works in the places in the grammar where a type context is expected
20:45:36Araqlike after a colon
20:45:43EXetoCright, skipping the Obj postfix for certain things seems to be a good idea. it should be fairly obvious what it is in many cases
20:46:00filwitAraq: okay, so not "fully" fixed
20:46:23dom96filwit: We want to help with adoption. It seems that these T/P prefixes and style insensitivity scare people away from Nimrod.
20:46:38filwitAraq: that is really one of the only reasons I could see why enforcing CS on types would make sense
20:46:39EXetoCand sometimes I can't be bothered with the init prefix either, but mostly for types that are used all over the place
20:47:02Araqit's possible to fully fix it, filwit but it's complex and the lookup rules when it comes to generics and macros are already quite complex
20:47:16filwitdom96: yes, i agree.. it's was the first "well.. that's sux" moments I had when reading through the Nimrod doc
20:47:25Araqplus it's kind of weird
20:47:44Araqthe human being uses the case to disambiguate var parser: Parser
20:47:54Araqso the compiler should do the same
20:48:17filwityeah, that makes sense.. but it sounds like a lot of work
20:48:38filwita lot of work that other CS languages don't need to deal with
20:48:54filwitstill, the non-CS of Nimrod is kinda attractive in it's own right
20:49:27filwitso idk, from a purely marketing standpoint it might be worth it, idk
20:49:48Araqwell one other solution is to make CS based on the identifiers in scope
20:50:06Araqif they clash, use for these identifiers a CS based lookup
20:50:33Araqthat's quite what a human being does I guess, but it's also weird ;-)
20:50:37filwityeah that's what I thought you meant to do... so var rect: Rect ... every 'rect' after that (in the scope) would refer to the local not that type
20:50:51filwiti think that makes sense, personally
20:51:12dom96That sounds like it would create many confusing errors.
20:51:24filwit^ true...
20:51:33filwithard to parse bugs
20:51:39filwitbut IDE color coding could help there
20:51:48dom96You're expecting the language to be non-CS and it suddenly starts being CS.
20:51:52dom96And only in a specific scenario
20:52:00dom96Actually it's most definitely a bad idea.
20:52:04filwithaha, that's a good point
20:52:23Araqdom96: I dunno, I think in practice it will work out beautifully
20:52:39filwitps folks, you guys still teamspeak?
20:52:39Araqbut it's hard to implement and again works against the "render" feature a bit
20:52:41dom96Like, you define some variable and suddenly some code 5K lines away from your definition starts creating an error and you're confused as hell
20:53:24Araqdom96: once again, you can't design features by starting with the "omg what if" question
20:53:31filwitdom96, Araq: you guys still get on teamspeak regularly?
20:53:35dom96filwit: Not really. We use Skype more I guess.
20:53:58Araqdom96 is lying
20:54:13Araqtruth is: we gave up on nimrod and play Dota 2 all the time
20:54:19filwitLOL
20:54:22dom96lol
20:55:15dom96Araq: I can't help it, I have to think of 'what if' scenarios, it's my nature.
20:55:45filwitsame
20:56:02dom96It's thanks to this that I can think of possible bugs in my code :)
20:56:07Araqwhat if somebody nests his "if"s 30 levels deep? should we forbid it? why?
20:56:18Araqdoes that make "if" a bad feature?
20:56:34EXetoCyes, get rid of it
20:56:37dom96There is a difference between coming up with ridiculous 'what if' scenarios and perfectly reasonable ones :P
20:56:52Araqyou were totally unspecific
20:56:59Araqnot perfectly reasonable
20:57:14Mat2just a note: the syntax in Colorforth is identical to a specific highlighting colour (so no prefixes (and special syntax) used, only colours)
20:57:19dom96Yeah, fair enough. I was very vague.
20:58:07filwitlol EXetoC
20:58:15dom96But I was doing it with the hope that you may understand what I mean. Perhaps you're right and it won't happen in practive.
20:58:17dom96*practice
21:03:19filwitthe fuck is Colorforth?
21:03:38filwityou know a lot about abstract languages, Mat2 :D
21:04:00filwit(excuse my french)
21:05:37Mat2filwit: look here (the 4 definations are an IDE driver): http://www.colorforth.com/ide.html
21:06:10filwitoh god, large text is large
21:06:30*Sergio965 joined #nimrod
21:07:13Mat2(that's the commentary. Mr. Moore's eyesight is not so good this days)
21:07:43dom96filwit: I should probably give up... and i'm sorry for asking once again... but any chance you could finish that aporia icon?
21:09:05filwitlol, yeah dom96
21:09:11filwiti know i promised that awhile ago
21:09:13dom96yay
21:10:14filwitbut you didn't like my first design and wanted some border-line-gay pink unicorn or something so i gave up for a bit
21:10:24filwit(haha :-P)
21:10:50dom96HEY GITHUB'S PINK UNICORN IS AWESOME AND YOU KNOW IT
21:10:53dom96*cough*
21:11:01filwitlol
21:11:10filwitwait, github has a pink unicorn ?
21:11:15dom96I had this other idea of having the outline of a butterfly on a grey background, and the inside of the butterfly would be white with an inner shadow
21:11:21dom96I even tried it myself
21:11:28dom96But got annoyed by inkscape
21:12:01dom96Yes: http://fredericiana.com/media/wp/2009/12/github-fail-unicorn.JPG
21:12:22filwithmmm.. okay i think i see what your envisioning
21:12:28dom96lol
21:12:31reactormonkworks \o/ https://github.com/Tass/nim-kwin-tiling
21:12:35reactormonkbtw, what is the prefix/postfix for nimrod code?
21:12:39dom96I wasn't serious about the pink unicorn btw :P
21:12:48dom96reactormonk: cool, I saw that earlier!
21:13:01reactormonkdom96, now for some real tiling code
21:13:11reactormonkI'm grabbing the algos from dw
21:13:13reactormonkdwm
21:13:18filwitinteresting reactormonk, I just switched to KDE
21:13:24dom96filwit: I tried tracing this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bolboreta_GFDL97.jpg
21:13:25filwitlooks promising
21:13:52reactormonkfilwit, you can already load it, it maps the keys to gravities
21:14:11reactormonkso you have semi-tiling for starters
21:14:27reactormonkit's easier with emacs.
21:14:55Mat2How the come to this logo ... hmm, consuming mushrooms ?
21:15:47reactormonkfilwit, feel free to open any issues
21:16:05filwitthat's always the best way to make successful things Mat2, just look at mario
21:16:17dom96reactormonk: cool, so that means that Nimrod's JS backend is pretty good huh?
21:16:22filwitreactormonk: okay, will probably test it in a bit
21:16:26Mat2a preference for playing with Filly Unicorns ?
21:16:41dom96filwit: I sent you an email with what I managed to do, maybe you could finish it off?
21:16:58filwitdom96: ill take a look
21:17:45filwittell me what you do and dont like about it
21:18:04filwitactually, lets start that in private thread
21:18:05Mat2filwit: ehm.. ok. I had always prefered Giana's Sister
21:18:07dom96up close it just looks odd.
21:18:20dom96zoomed out it looks ok, but too plain I think.
21:18:25filwitoh Mat2, i was talking to dom about his design he emailed me
21:18:41dom96oh, private thread, ok.
21:18:52reactormonkdom96, yup, it works.
21:18:52filwitjust so we're not spaming this with design talk
21:20:35*NewGuy joined #nimrod
21:21:43dom96hey NewGuy
21:22:03dom96You're not really new anymore heh
21:22:07Mat2hi NewGuy
21:22:17reactormonkfilwit, there isn't much to it currently
21:24:34NewGuyOh hey guys! Sorry, looking at the logs.
21:25:05reactormonktrying to find out wtf mfact is. Short variable names are for asshats.
21:25:05NewGuyNah, but I think I'm going to stick with it ;)
21:25:49AraqNewGuy: sdl.sleep might do what you want
21:26:22dom96NewGuy: awesome :D
21:26:26reactormonkAraq, so, how do you write a repr?
21:26:28NewGuyHm? Oh really?
21:27:14dom96reactormonk: Nice to hear that the JS backend works. I have a cool project planned: a bridge between server nimrod (C) and client nimrod (JS).
21:27:20dom96It's a pretty obvious project really.
21:28:04Araqreactormonk: 'repr' takes too much time, I might deprecate it now that compile time iteration over object fields works
21:28:46AraqI mean it takes too much development time, it's still buggy apparently
21:28:56Araqand makes for a bad first impression
21:30:16OrionPKdom96 as a web dev, all I have to say to that is "uh oh" :P
21:30:31NewGuyAraq: Ah - alas this is not so. It has the same limitations as the standard C's sleep()
21:30:55dom96OrionPK: Why? :P
21:31:58reactormonkAraq, hm. I'd like a $ that matches objects
21:32:00NewGuyAraq: But all is well! both sleep(0) and friends, will still do what I need. As does using VSync to restrict it without any need for timers at all
21:32:21OrionPKdom96 I just get nervous about things that try to do "too much"
21:32:40reactormonkdom96, kinda like http://doc.opalang.org/ ? ^^
21:32:46OrionPKyou always seem to run into a wall where you can't do something the 'right way' and have to resort to hacks or ditch your progress
21:33:00AraqNewGuy: if you operate the GC in realtime mode it does busy waiting for you and is more accurate than sleep ... that's what I think anyway
21:33:42OrionPKdom96 have you ever used razor view engine in asp.net mvc?
21:34:01dom96OrionPK: I know what you mean. I've used all sorts of ASP.NET crap :P
21:34:08NewGuyAraq: You mean just let it do a step()?
21:34:27dom96OrionPK: My design will be superior :P
21:34:34NewGuyAraq: That would be pretty damn perfect!
21:34:39OrionPKheh
21:34:48OrionPKsomething like that would be pretty damn useful.. nimrod has filters which are nice but limited as yet
21:34:51dom96reactormonk: maybe, not familiar with it.
21:36:36dom96I'm not sure how well it will work out in practice. But having some transparency between client-side Nimrod and server-side Nimrod would be cool.
21:37:28AraqNewGuy: yeah, look it up in the docs though I don't remember it
21:37:56OrionPKwell
21:38:06OrionPKthe client side stuff has a long long way to go
21:38:31OrionPKlot of JS gets generated for not much nimrod
21:38:50NewGuyAraq: I was just looking at the docs, I didn't see anything about it doing busy waiting?
21:39:13NewGuyAraq: Just about setting the max-time for a step, the ability to trigger a step, etc. I'll look some more and see if I can find it though.
21:39:14OrionPKI would rather just write my own JS, or use typescript or something
21:39:15dom96OrionPK: I'm not sure, but I think it still needs dead code elimination.
21:40:22reactormonkOrionPK, it's not that bad
21:40:45OrionPKI havent used it for anything beyond just testing it out
21:41:09OrionPKbut another issue is debugging the generated js
21:41:21dom96I used it very little too.
21:42:51Associ8orcould be solved with sourcemaps
21:43:22OrionPKidk if sourcemaps would work
21:43:26reactormonkOrionPK, so far, I haven't had too many problems
21:43:34reactormonkOrionPK, http://sprunge.us/MfaX generated code
21:43:58OrionPKreactormonk whats it do?
21:44:19Associ8oranyway I don
21:44:35Associ8or't see why in this day and age, anyone would want to write JS by hand
21:45:09OrionPKnecessary evil
21:45:17NewGuyI assume not (since I can't find anything in the docs) but does Nimrod happen to have abstract types or interfaces?
21:45:53NewGuyOr should I just use inheritance with an object that throws an exception when it's methods run?
21:46:30Associ8orI don't think it's nessecary evil, in the same way that most people don't write ASM by hand anymore
21:46:51reactormonkOrionPK, tiling on kwin.
21:47:12Mat2get some sleep, ciao
21:47:19OrionPKI would scarcely know where to even put a breakpoint in that, reactormonk :P
21:47:30*Mat2 quit (Quit: Verlassend)
21:47:55reactormonkOrionPK, I added some echo statements, you can't put a breakpoint inside kwin anyway
21:48:24dom96NewGuy: What do you want to do? Perhaps you should just use inheritance.
21:48:50OrionPKNewGuy there was a forum post about this a couple months back I think
21:49:09OrionPKhttp://forum.nimrod-code.org/t/162
21:49:28NewGuydom96: Making the framework for game-states. Wanted to make an abstract State object that all the states used by the game would implement.
21:49:42NewGuyOrionPK: Thanks, man. You're the best.
21:50:11OrionPKnp
21:52:30NewGuyIt's a no-go. Like the thread said, that solution won't work with methods since they don't have any compile-time behavior - and the base-class must be implemented.
21:52:38AraqNewGuy: GC_step(x, strongAdvice=true) might be it
21:52:50Araqbut I agree somebody should improve the docs
21:53:04NewGuyAraq: I do directly remember you advising someone to come bug you on the IRC if they want something done.
21:53:28NewGuyAraq: So - can you please give us {.abstract.} for methods? I would be eternally grateful! ;)
21:53:34Araqno
21:53:43Araqhow should they work?
21:53:57NewGuyAraq: Damn, worth a shot. I have no idea.
21:54:01Araqgood luck figuring it out
21:54:06Araqit's far from trivial
21:54:36Araq(I have 1 solution at least but it's ugly)
21:54:44NewGuyYeah, I'll just go ahead with throwing an exception if the method is ever reached. Solves the problem just fine.
21:55:01Araqyou might also use closures instead of objects
21:55:02reactormonkAraq, kinda like traits in scala? You can say object X implement trait Y. Traits may have unimplemented methods.
21:55:32Araqreactormonk: Scala has 'class'. Nimrod hasn't
21:56:10Araqdom96: the JS codegen does dead code elimination since 0.9.2
21:56:28reactormonkAraq, nimrod has objects?
21:57:56Araqreactormonk: but methods are not bound to objects so it's hard to decide at which point the compiler should report an error that you didn't implement some .abstract method
21:58:17NewGuyAraq: I'd be willing to help out with documentation as I go.
21:58:22NewGuyIt's the least I can do.
21:58:30Araqawesome thanks
21:58:43Sergio965Does Nimrod have procedural macros?
21:58:59AraqSergio965: I don't know what you mean by that, but yes
21:59:04Sergio965Lmao.
21:59:08NewGuyAraq: What's the strongAdvice parameter do, though? Just asks it to enforce that maxTime?
21:59:17Sergio965http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro_(computer_science)#Procedural_macros
21:59:25Araqiirc, NewGuy
21:59:45AraqSergio965: the answer is still yes
21:59:51Sergio965Neat.
22:02:44NewGuyWell I'm off for lunch, thanks for the answers everyone. Enjoy!
22:02:54*gradha joined #nimrod
22:04:13EXetoCgradha: meow
22:04:54gradhaEXetoC: sorry, can't speak cat
22:05:33EXetoCmoo
22:05:58gradhaoh, I ate that one today
22:06:56reactormonkAraq, a trait has a generic that needs to be instanciated, that fills the 'bind to object' part. You can then explicitly say that type X implements the trait or implicitly if the abstract methods are defined.
22:06:57*NewGuy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
22:07:05*dom96 growls at EXetoC
22:07:54Araqreactormonk: here is how I read it "bli bla trait blub" :P
22:08:27EXetoCc(:)
22:09:05gradhadom96: saw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW9JX38lmM0 today, thought you may like it
22:09:30reactormonkAraq, try again
22:10:12Araqhmm "bla bla trait bla awesome blah replaced by roles in 2 years"
22:11:52reactormonkroles?
22:12:51Araqa role is a trait with multiple unbound F-row-polymorphism, reactormonk
22:13:09Araqand hence clearly superior
22:14:21reactormonkwhy do you need multiple uunbound?
22:16:06Araqso that I can reintroduce a nominal typing system on top of a structural system
22:16:37reactormonka bit less fancy for me plz
22:16:57Araqok, ok, the joke went a bit too far
22:17:14Araqreactormonk: I made up all this stuff
22:17:32*filwit quit (Quit: Leaving)
22:19:03EXetoCit sounds good. maybe you should tweak the terminology a little bit, and then try to make it the new OO
22:19:07dom96gradha: lol, i'm not much into MLP. I do like demoscene though. Comex might like it though.
22:19:53gradhause it against filwit as design argument for your aporia icon
22:20:18gradhathough those ponies are less manly than github's pink unicorn
22:21:01dom96The fact that comex likes MLP proves that using a 'unicorn' as an icon for Aporia is not that bad of an idea :P
22:21:13Araqreactormonk: I think Perl 6 really has "roles" though. I don't know how they compare to traits.
22:22:15*BitPuffin joined #nimrod
22:22:17dom96reactormonk: Don't worry, I think Araq is just drunk again.
22:22:22BitPuffinHey guys
22:22:27dom96:P
22:22:29dom96hey BitPuffin
22:22:35BitPuffindom96: is there an easy way to use sqlite with yar web framework
22:22:47BitPuffinand have you benchmarked it against other frameworks? :)
22:23:08dom96BitPuffin: Depends how you define "easy".
22:23:22dom96BitPuffin: It's as easy as using the db_sqlite module.
22:23:39gradhamaybe he's looking for exhu's ORM
22:23:45BitPuffindom96: hmm
22:23:51BitPuffinyeah an ORM might be nice
22:24:08dom96nimforum manages fine without an ORM
22:24:14gradhaunfortunately exhu has only talked about implementing one, so you'll have to use db_sqlite for the moment
22:25:21BitPuffinhmm
22:25:23BitPuffinis it easy to use?
22:26:20AraqI think exhu did implement one, he stopped using macros for it though due to their bugs
22:27:21gradhaBitPuffin: if you don't mind writing SQL statements it's fine
22:27:37BitPuffingradha: Hmm, well I don't think I do
22:27:43BitPuffinso it might be fine :)
22:28:24dom96alternatively you can use mongo or redis
22:29:04BitPuffindom96: is jester asynchronous?
22:29:24BitPuffindom96: Sure but mongo is not all that good and redis is in memory
22:29:32BitPuffinwhich isn't too much of a fit for this kind of website
22:29:50gradhaBitPuffin: examples of usage at https://github.com/gradha/the_hyperlink_vs_nimrod/blob/master/the_hyperlink_vs_nimrod.nim#L209 or https://github.com/gradha/the_hyperlink_vs_nimrod/blob/master/the_hyperlink_vs_nimrod.nim#L637
22:29:52dom96yes it is
22:30:07dom96I use redis for nimbuild btw :P
22:30:07gradhadom96: doesn't your pygment nimrodizer support triple quotes?
22:30:11BitPuffindom96: you mean async?
22:30:14dom96yes
22:30:19BitPuffindom96: oh coool!
22:30:25BitPuffindom96: what's the memory usage?
22:30:34dom96Very small.
22:30:57dom96It's not like i'm storing the great encyclopedia in there though.
22:31:16dom96gradha: dunno, it should?
22:31:30dom96btw it would be nice if someone created a page for all the nimrod pygments bugs they see
22:31:38dom96on the wiki maybe
22:31:43dom96So that someone can fix them all :P
22:32:20BitPuffingradha: I'll check it out, thanks :) I'm thinking I might just use jester for my dad's websites because it's pretty small and sqlite is small too. And his website doesn't need a huge amount of load
22:33:50*NewGuy joined #nimrod
22:35:32gradhaBitPuffin: you can see a smaller usage example in nimrod's examples/cross_todo/nimrod_backend directory
22:38:59gradhadom96: doesn't that pygment thing have some github issue thingy? in fact, were does it exist?
22:39:07gradhathingy
22:39:13dom96on bitbucket
22:39:27gradhaso bitbucket thingy
22:43:43BitPuffingradha: in the nimrod source tree?
22:44:13gradhaBitPuffin: yes
22:44:34gradhashouldn't be far if you have nimrod installed
22:53:20BitPuffingotta install nimrod on my desktop computer :)
22:53:27BitPuffinhaven't used it in a couple of weeks
22:54:05*gradha likes how people nowadays chat telepathically on IRC without computers
22:56:57*BitPuffin does too
22:57:03BitPuffingradha: no I've been on my laptop you see
22:57:30BitPuffinlast time I used this machine I probably didn't even know that nimrod existed possibly :o
22:58:23Araqyeah been too afraid of Nimrod's 'discard disaster hu?
22:58:42Araqand no ... I don't know what this is either
22:59:03AraqI read in some forum post about it
22:59:11BitPuffinAraq: whatchu talking bout
22:59:46Araqapparently we had a "discard" showstopper once
22:59:54BitPuffinwhen?
22:59:59gradhaso you discarded the showstopper?
23:00:04Araqa couple of years ago I think
23:00:54AraqI've implemented 'discardable' but not because of this but because it's useful
23:05:24*NimBot joined #nimrod
23:05:40gradhaAraq: you seem to be doing fine despite suffering people
23:08:10AraqBitPuffin: I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting you are one of these people
23:08:35BitPuffinAraq: hmm?
23:09:26Araqnever mind, you didn't misunderstood me then
23:10:37BitPuffinI can't recall you saying anything about people, was it during my reboot?
23:11:47gradhaBitPuffin: don't worry about that and download nimrod on that laptop so you can be whole again
23:12:05BitPuffingradha: ah well nimrod is on the laptop but not on the desktop :)
23:12:15BitPuffinI'm gonna start the process rajt nao!
23:12:48gradhagood man
23:12:58AraqBitPuffin: I said: my point is: People come up with stupid things to avoid learning something new
23:13:14BitPuffingradha: I'm a great man indeed
23:13:32BitPuffinAraq: Ah, well I learned nimrod so I'm definitely not one of those :D
23:13:49EXetoCyeah screw them
23:14:19Araqgah it was just a silly story anyway
23:14:38Araqactually it was supposed to be funny but since nobody laughs ...
23:14:47BitPuffinI might have to check the logs
23:15:01gradhaAraq: the world needs more blog posts about nimrod and people being stupid for not learning new things
23:15:32Araqgradha: the world also needs my register based VM for superior macro evaluation
23:16:01gradhaah, superior macro evaluation, the holy grail
23:16:20gradhaI'm keeping that as a title for a blog post
23:17:04EXetoCwhy aren't the types named {u,i}{8,16,32}? like the literals
23:17:11BitPuffinah it's actually spelled grail
23:17:29EXetoCtoo short?
23:17:37AraqEXetoC: the types existed before the literals
23:19:57gradhaI talked to the guys implementing libzip, they have planned file/memory stream API but aren't there yet, so for appending zips to executables I either improve libzip or design my own package format for modules
23:20:14EXetoClet's add a converter for that while we're at it :>
23:20:40gradhashould I improve libzip rather than reinventing the square wheel for nimrod?
23:20:43Araqgradha: what? libzip already has a streaming interface
23:20:54gradhanot for zip_open
23:21:07*Sergio965 quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
23:21:08Araqhmm that's possible
23:21:19gradhasorry, meant zipfiles module
23:21:42gradhazipfiles uses the C libzip lib, which implements zip_open, but only for files
23:21:55BitPuffindom96: is there a template language for jester?
23:22:26gradhaactually, the libzip guys have a prototype for the stream interface in their own TODO file
23:22:28dom96BitPuffin: Nimrod has compile-time templates so no
23:22:35Araqgradha: ah yeah I get what you mean
23:22:40BitPuffindom96: so?
23:22:47dom96the language is nimrod :P
23:22:59BitPuffindom96: well I mean for html stuff
23:23:13EXetoCso does he
23:23:17BitPuffindom96: look at vibe.d, that is also compile time
23:23:21dom96indeed
23:23:24BitPuffinand it's got a template lang
23:23:25gradhaAraq: I thought the embedding of modules could be traversing the current $PATH and recording all nim files to include in a zip which would be appended to the executable
23:23:36dom96I think you are thinking of different templates.
23:23:54gradhathat would require special dealing for includes, but other than that seems reasonable, and could also capture available babel modules
23:23:55Araqgradha: why? we have the prelude that tells us what is essential to include ;-)
23:23:57EXetoChttp://nimrod-code.org/filters.html
23:23:59BitPuffindom96: I'm thinking stuff like erb or whatever
23:24:08dom96^^
23:25:11BitPuffinEXetoC: interesting
23:25:19gradhaAraq: http://memegenerator.co/instance/40335169
23:26:14BitPuffinEXetoC: is that at compile time?
23:27:31Araqgradha: nimrod could copy a slice of the executable (well the resource part) to $TMP and zipfiles.open that
23:28:18gradhathat could do for a temporary patch to test the embedding
23:28:39gradhabut since it's readonly it would be nice if you could mmap that part of the binary and pass it to zip_open
23:29:17gradhahmm... did mmap crash if you deleted the file it mapped to while executing?
23:30:11BitPuffinEXetoC: so you just write that stuff in a .html file?
23:30:17AraqI don't think so, linux only deletes after nobody uses it anymore and windows holds a lock so it can't be deleted
23:31:09AraqBitPuffin: no in a .tmpl file that's include'd from your nimrod code
23:31:40BitPuffinAraq: Hmm, so, I use an include statement?
23:31:40Araqand yeah this means you need to copy&paste the HTML if you use a HTML design tool
23:31:51BitPuffinpff :P
23:31:55BitPuffinplease
23:31:59BitPuffinHTML design tool
23:32:04BitPuffin:D
23:32:08gradhalike notepad and the like
23:32:17BitPuffinyou mean text editor?
23:32:19*NewGuy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
23:32:33BitPuffinI wonder how I set the syntax highlighting to be html with vim in a file that isn't .html
23:32:51comexset ft=html
23:33:11gradhaor "set syntax=html"?
23:33:29*BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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23:34:58dom96It doens't have to have a .tmpl extension.
23:35:17dom96*doesn't
23:35:31BitPuffincomex, gradha both worked, thanks
23:35:42Araqgood night
23:35:52gradhabye
23:36:29BitPuffinnighty!
23:36:33dom96bye
23:36:41dom96I use a .html extension for them
23:36:43BitPuffinbut you just do include thefile?
23:37:20dom96include "thefile.html" ?
23:37:31BitPuffinit has to be surrounded by ""?
23:37:41dom96dunno
23:37:49BitPuffinwell I guess just to be safe :D
23:38:02BitPuffinis it relative to the source or relative to the compilation path or both
23:40:29dom96source I guess
23:47:48BitPuffinhmm, so all I do is include and it does all the nice stuff for me, neat
23:47:55BitPuffinwell then I guess jester is a slam dunk
23:48:15BitPuffindom96: you should document jester with an example of how to use filters in case you haven't, very helpful
23:49:57dom96Sure, can you create an issue for me?
23:50:05BitPuffindom96: yeah buddy
23:52:47gradhagood night
23:52:52*gradha quit (Quit: bbl, need to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZZC82dgJr8 again)
23:53:02dom96thanks
23:53:06BitPuffinno problem!
23:53:23BitPuffindom96: no babel package for jester? :/
23:54:01dom96there is
23:54:15BitPuffinooh right
23:54:16BitPuffinsorry
23:54:20BitPuffintotally missed that :s
23:56:35BitPuffinYou know this is totally nice
23:56:49BitPuffinI wonder what the memory usage could be of running jester with sqlite
23:57:01BitPuffinI wonder what kind of RAM I need for that
23:57:04BitPuffinwith debian