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| 00:07:30 | reactormonk | A contemporary, robust technology stack, so that both users and administrators alike have another choice BESIDES php. ^^ |
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| 19:52:19 | NimBot | nimrod-code/Aporia aceb569 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±2 -0]: Unsaved tabs now have a tooltip. |
| 19:52:19 | NimBot | nimrod-code/Aporia 6d6d172 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±2 -0]: Suggest is now restricted to being activated only on Nimrod files. |
| 19:53:27 | Araq | nice, aporia is constantly improving :-) |
| 20:04:55 | Anaphaxeton | hi guys |
| 20:05:45 | shevy | hi haxetonana |
| 20:06:12 | Araq | hi Anaphaxeton |
| 20:06:33 | Anaphaxeton | yeah, halfbanana |
| 20:09:33 | dom96 | hey Anaphaxeton, what's up? |
| 20:09:46 | Anaphaxeton | i went for a little vacation |
| 20:10:09 | Anaphaxeton | feeling refreshed :) |
| 20:10:10 | Anaphaxeton | you? |
| 20:11:55 | dom96 | was at the gym today, so feeling the opposite of refreshed I guess heh. |
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| 20:13:32 | Anaphaxeton | were i at the gym today i would be in intensive care now |
| 20:16:30 | shevy | what kind of gym |
| 20:16:53 | shevy | Anaphaxeton hey it depends what kind of gym... if it is martial arts, after a while you wouldn't feel too tired anymore |
| 20:17:21 | shevy | if it is however power lifting then I think you will always feel tired, in the event that you try to exhaust your whole body as much as possible |
| 20:17:23 | dom96 | I spent 30 minutes on the rowing machine :P |
| 20:17:29 | shevy | ok |
| 20:17:30 | shevy | he is tired |
| 20:17:36 | Anaphaxeton | any type of activity beyond typing and walking more that 100m a day is dangerous |
| 20:17:37 | Anaphaxeton | :p |
| 20:17:37 | shevy | and has a muscular back |
| 20:17:54 | shevy | some days I dont even manage 100m |
| 20:18:07 | shevy | but sometimes you have to go out!!! |
| 20:18:15 | Anaphaxeton | same here |
| 20:22:07 | Anaphaxeton | reading the ATX specs |
| 20:22:34 | Anaphaxeton | i want to make a custom "rack/case/whateverthatholdsmotherboards" |
| 20:29:51 | Araq | what's a rack/case/whateverthatholdsmotherboards? |
| 20:30:08 | Araq | oh ... I see |
| 20:31:54 | Anaphaxeton | :p |
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| 21:20:18 | apotheon | Have I mentioned my thoughts on C++ replacement languages here? |
| 21:20:29 | apotheon | (in the abstract) |
| 21:21:37 | apotheon | There have been suitable replacements for C++ for quite a few years now, but they haven't managed to really displace C++ at all. I think that the unique history of C++, combined with its closeness in some respects to C, is to blame for the lack of actual displacement of C++ in the world -- a displacement I think the world desperately needs. |
| 21:22:31 | apotheon | I think that all adds up to circumstances where a necessary (but perhaps not sufficient) condition of successfully displacing C++ is being a suitable replacement for C, as well. I don't know if that would mean it would *displace* C, but it could serve as a replacement. |
| 21:22:33 | Anaphaxeton | describe such a displacement |
| 21:23:07 | apotheon | displace means it substantially pushes C++ (or whatever it's displacing) out of its dominant position in the market, marginalizing the victim of displacement |
| 21:23:33 | apotheon | So . . . Go will never displace C++ because it cannot stand in for C. |
| 21:24:15 | apotheon | It can *replace* C++, in various circumstances, and may displace it within Google and in a few scattered other contexts, but it's not going to *displace* C++, really. |
| 21:24:30 | apotheon | It's just not, technically, a suitable replacement for C at all. |
| 21:25:10 | Araq | oh I see, I need to be careful now ;-) |
| 21:25:14 | apotheon | I don't think that being a suitable replacement for C *should* be a requirement for displacing C++ -- just that, for various reasons, it *is* a requirement. |
| 21:25:22 | * | Araq looks up "displace" ... |
| 21:26:10 | apotheon | http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/replace |
| 21:26:11 | apotheon | http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/displace |
| 21:26:15 | apotheon | decent definitions |
| 21:26:26 | Araq | well I know what it means |
| 21:27:16 | apotheon | I'm just using etymologically consistent definitions of the terms in English, with some precise differentiation between them. These words aren't CompSci jargon in this case. |
| 21:27:47 | apotheon | I really, really want C++ to be displaced in this world, in at least the vast majority of cases. |
| 21:28:34 | Araq | well I think I can follow you ;-) |
| 21:28:44 | apotheon | Its popularity got whittled down for a high tide mark to a more reasonable core competency coverage, with some extension into fuzzy-boundary area, but it's pretty stable there now. |
| 21:28:49 | Araq | but I thought that the last times too with discussions with you |
| 21:29:00 | Araq | so I'm more careful |
| 21:29:04 | apotheon | hmm |
| 21:29:13 | * | apotheon resolves to try to be less of a beartrap in the woods. |
| 21:29:35 | apotheon | Araq: What do you think of my analysis of the matter? |
| 21:30:12 | apotheon | I don't exactly have any hard evidence and statistical number crunching and so on to back it up, particularly. It's more of a general observation. |
| 21:31:21 | Anaphaxeton | apotheon, what about D? |
| 21:31:31 | Anaphaxeton | it can easily replace both C and C++ |
| 21:31:35 | apotheon | Part of the reason I think this is that any time I get into a discussion with a rabid C++ partisan, and pick at his defenses until I get an actually direct, simple argument from him, it always depends in some way on the relationship of C++ to C. |
| 21:31:55 | apotheon | Anaphaxeton: D is fucked because of its long-term proprietary status. |
| 21:32:18 | apotheon | Anaphaxeton: New C++ replacement language efforts are cropping up with relative regularity now, and D will disappear in the noise. |
| 21:32:23 | Anaphaxeton | there is this nice D1,5 project... |
| 21:32:53 | apotheon | If the implementation was distributed under a copyfree license early on it might have Changed The World, or some such. |
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| 21:33:26 | apotheon | Instead, it was kept proprietary for a long time, then ultimately became open source only by way of GCC infrastructure, so . . . too little, too late. |
| 21:33:45 | apotheon | That's what I think, anyway. |
| 21:34:17 | apotheon | Objective-C might have been where C++ is now, or at least have divided the market more evenly with C++, if it was not strictly proprietary for years. |
| 21:34:34 | apotheon | Now, ObjC is just the Apple language. |
| 21:34:47 | apotheon | (socially speaking) |
| 21:35:07 | apotheon | . . . and that basically only happened because Saint Steve of Jobs declared it so. |
| 21:35:27 | apotheon | I'm not sure whether that will last now that he's gone. Time will tell. |
| 21:35:38 | Anaphaxeton | Jobs is not a Saint |
| 21:35:44 | apotheon | I was being facetious. |
| 21:35:44 | Anaphaxeton | he was not even Christian! |
| 21:37:06 | Araq | apotheon: I'm not sure I agree with your analyses but go on please |
| 21:37:47 | Araq | and I'm especially interested what you think that Nimrod needs in order to re-/displace C++ |
| 21:38:22 | gour | more core devs to be safe option* |
| 21:38:24 | gour | ? |
| 21:39:21 | gour | reactormonk: thanks for working on emacs mode...i might use it |
| 21:40:16 | apotheon | Araq: I think that pretty much summed up the analysis in this case. I mean, I could comment on other languages' failings as C++ displacers (OCAML: licensing, not a C replacement; Haskell: long obscurity, too "weird", not supported by libs sufficient to be a C replacement; LISP: has its own popularity problems; etc.), but I've pretty well spelled out the core of my argument. |
| 21:41:05 | Araq | but I fail to see what that means concretely |
| 21:41:19 | Araq | which features does the "C++-Killer" need? |
| 21:41:38 | apotheon | Araq: For Nimrod, I basically just think to achieve maximum popularity as a C++ replacement (possibly to the level of really displacing it) it needs to be able to do C core competency stuff (secure memory management, driver and OS kernel dev, et cetera) and not make anything *harder* than it is in C, in addition to being a generally better thought out language. |
| 21:41:42 | gour | support!! |
| 21:42:12 | apotheon | Araq: My point wasn't so much about features as about the major barrier stopping many potential C++-displacers from fulfilling that potential. |
| 21:42:13 | Araq | gour: I know, but can't help it |
| 21:42:23 | * | gour nods |
| 21:42:33 | apotheon | gour: Support . . . ? |
| 21:42:45 | apotheon | That's pretty vague. What kind of support is needed? |
| 21:42:55 | apotheon | maybe s/needed/lacking/ |
| 21:43:06 | gour | apotheon: which company will inest in language with one core dev for the only compiler? |
| 21:43:13 | gour | *invest |
| 21:43:30 | apotheon | Araq: Note that I haven't really been able to get into Nimrod much, yet, so I don't have a lot of concrete advice to offer. |
| 21:43:47 | apotheon | gour: Ah, this goes back to the "more core devs" thing. |
| 21:43:54 | gour | yep |
| 21:44:24 | apotheon | As soon as I have both time and (especially) a copyfree implementation installed, I plan to dive into Nimrod a bit more. I'd like to help out if I can. |
| 21:44:35 | Araq | gour: we're 3 core devs |
| 21:44:46 | gour | ?? |
| 21:44:57 | apotheon | I was wondering about that. I got the impression there was at least one more core dev. |
| 21:44:58 | Araq | but it'd be nice if one of us could work fulltime on it |
| 21:45:16 | gour | some $s are needed |
| 21:45:21 | Araq | yep |
| 21:45:30 | gour | catch-22 |
| 21:45:43 | apotheon | Araq: Hey . . . if I got to the point where I was competent enough to be a core dev . . . would you pay me 10 USD per hour to be a fulltime dev? |
| 21:46:06 | apotheon | I'd totally take that job, if I thought I was qualified. |
| 21:46:43 | apotheon | It seems like it'd be a really fun job. |
| 21:46:51 | Araq | ha |
| 21:47:07 | Araq | the last sentence shows you're not up for the task :P |
| 21:47:11 | apotheon | 10 * 40 = 400 per week |
| 21:47:20 | apotheon | not a huge expense |
| 21:47:24 | q66 | <Araq> the last sentence shows you're not up for the task :P |
| 21:47:25 | q66 | hahaha |
| 21:47:27 | apotheon | Araq: I've never worked on a compiler. |
| 21:47:32 | apotheon | . . . so yeah. |
| 21:47:48 | apotheon | Not qualified. |
| 21:48:06 | Araq | don't worry, I can't pay any salaries anyway |
| 21:49:22 | apotheon | My name got into commit logs for TenDRA (which is now sadly defunct), but didn't do anything that constituted real compiler work to get those commits. |
| 21:50:16 | apotheon | s/didn't/I didn't/ |
| 21:50:35 | apotheon | Mostly, I was doing documentation. |
| 21:50:47 | gour | Araq: considering you're hanging in #ada and are very well versed with Ada language, is there something fundamentally missing in nimrod's design in the terms of achieving Ada's stability/security or Nimrod is more suitable for replacing C(++) as discussed abobe? |
| 21:50:49 | apotheon | Any code I submitted was trivial. |
| 21:50:59 | apotheon | s/submitted/contributed/ |
| 21:52:02 | apotheon | Araq: Do you find Nimrod unfun to develop? |
| 21:52:21 | apotheon | Anaphaxeton: By the way . . . how did you come by that nick? |
| 21:53:21 | reactormonk | gour, go on, it's somewhat crude |
| 21:53:42 | reactormonk | gour, it should do code completion for a single file. |
| 21:54:14 | Araq | gour: apart from the fact we're still at 0.9.0 and not 1.0.0 and you can't have commercial support etc. etc. I can't see what's missing from a stability/security point of view |
| 21:55:41 | Araq | but Ada/Spark in particular is about the features it *lacks* as much as it is about the features it got |
| 21:56:13 | Anaphaxeton | apotheon, it means what you know it means apotheon |
| 21:57:42 | Araq | apotheon: "Complexity" seems to be a lot like "energy": you can transfer it from the end |
| 21:57:44 | Araq | user to one/some of the other players, but the total amount seems to remain |
| 21:57:46 | Araq | pretty much constant for a given task. |
| 21:58:29 | Araq | I tried hard that ordinary Nimrod code is "natural" code |
| 21:58:59 | Araq | so IMO it hides quite a lot of complexity |
| 21:59:07 | apotheon | Araq: I guess I'd buy that principle of conservation of complexity as a kind of rule-of-thumb for deciding how to distribute effort. |
| 21:59:13 | Araq | which means it's in the compiler ;-) |
| 21:59:32 | apotheon | Just don't turn the compiler into something like Perl internals. |
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| 22:00:11 | apotheon | "an interconnected mass of livers and pancreas and lungs and little sharp pointy things and the occasional exploding kidney" |
| 22:00:22 | apotheon | - Nat Torkington on Perl internals |
| 22:00:43 | Araq | yeah but the perl guys always pretend they're poets |
| 22:01:16 | gour | Araq: thanks...when i think more about FP which I like, I see it's more to have strong type-system (which is not FP-exclusive) as well as side-effects free functions when desired...iow, i'm not FP puritanist :-) |
| 22:01:34 | apotheon | Araq: I think that's the guys writing Perl, not the guys wrestling with Perl internals. |
| 22:01:53 | gour | Araq: i just read a bit about Spark, and believe we won't need it soon |
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| 22:02:33 | Araq | I dunno, it seems the community is mostly about concerned with puns |
| 22:02:45 | Araq | s/about// |
| 22:04:13 | apotheon | Araq: There's a lot of Perl poetry archived at PerlMonks. |
| 22:04:34 | apotheon | Literally, poetry written in Perl. |
| 22:04:55 | apotheon | It's not all *good* poetry, mind you -- but most "poetry" in *any* language is crap, so that's not abnormal. |
| 22:05:29 | Araq | I don't consider a programming language to be a language |
| 22:06:00 | Araq | so poetry in a programming language misses the point |
| 22:13:38 | * | gour --> sleep |
| 22:13:46 | gour | see you tomorrow, folks |
| 22:13:58 | apotheon | g'night gour |
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| 22:14:44 | apotheon | AFK for a bit |
| 22:14:44 | apotheon | ta |
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| 23:47:02 | reactormonk | is there a repr implementation in js? |
| 23:47:23 | Araq | only for enums and other basic types |
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| 23:49:16 | Araq | you could implement the rest analogous to how it's done for the C backend |
| 23:51:46 | reactormonk | plain JS objects too? |
| 23:51:59 | Araq | sure why not |
| 23:52:09 | Araq | use Nimrod's asm statement for that ;-) |
| 23:57:37 | reactormonk | first I need to implement my own rawEcho |
| 23:58:02 | Araq | dunno, look it up |
| 23:58:08 | Araq | it's not hard to provide |