<< 07-08-2015 >>
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08:19:39Varriountonionhammer: What do you think about heuristic project configuration file finding?
08:20:21Geometryhas there been any java libraries or programs converted to nim?
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08:42:37VarriountGeometry: Possibly.
08:43:28VarriountGeometry: Generally speaking, the kind of object-oriented programming enforced by the Java language doesn't work too well in a language like Nim.
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09:16:16GeometryVarriount, true, seems like there would be some work involved.
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09:20:18GeometryI haven't discovered any conversions from java as yet
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09:37:11NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 842a263 Yuriy Glukhov [+0 ±1 -0]: Fixed defer test.
09:37:11NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel b251625 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge pull request #3189 from yglukhov/defer-test-fix... 2 more lines
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09:49:51gokrVarriount: Regarding "kind of OO", I am not sure what you mean. IMHO "normal OO" works quite fine in Nim.
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10:01:44yglukhovgokr: interfaces? ;)
10:02:22gokrWell, sure, but if we disregard those (and the aqueducts) :)
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10:03:25gokrAnd fowl is messing with interfaces, so we hopefully have those too eventually.
10:04:37gokrAnd you can go quite far without interfaces IMHO.
10:07:52ekarlsois there interfaces in nim ?
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10:16:17coffeepotekarlso, there is concepts, which are kiiiiiinnnd of like interfaces http://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#generics-concepts
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10:23:42baabelfishconcepts = static interfaces
10:23:49baabelfishjust about
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10:26:12baabelfishyou just don't have to "implement" your class from a specific interface, instead concepts are used as requirements for any type that is passed to a templated function and checked at compile time
10:27:01baabelfishhttp://nycto.github.io/AStarNim/astar.html this is a nice example where one should use these
10:34:07coffeepothey awesome AStar :D What a cool unit!
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10:35:50coffeepotsometimes it's hard to keep track of what is out there for Nim, I wrote a super simple read only ini file reader the other day because using parsecfg was a bit too strict for some of the sloppy inis I was processing
10:36:23coffeepot...turns out someone had already done a really powerful ini file processor using trees and all sorts
10:37:58coffeepotI can't see a link to the source for this A-Star module though unfortunately
10:39:05coffeepotah got it https://github.com/Nycto/AStarNim
10:40:14baabelfish...but really concepts are just for better compiler error messages and documentation when using static duck typing
10:41:39Araqok, this made my day. people in #nim knowing what 'concept' actually does. :-)
10:42:17baabelfishAraq: thanks, I have read too many C++ standardation documents
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11:01:27gokrekarlso: fowl is working on making interfaces.
11:02:50gokrIIRC his interfaces are generated from concepts.
11:07:04baabelfishAraq: what does "- ``concept`` needs to be refined, a nice name for the feature is not enough." mean actually?
11:08:41Araqwell for a start identiiers are *unchecked* within a concept declaration
11:09:12Araqthis is very error prone
11:09:22Araqmake a typo and the concept simply doesn't match, yay
11:14:09baabelfishat least it's a compile time error
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11:15:51thekilonwell done on making this really interesting language
11:15:55*thekilon is now known as kilon_
11:16:30kilon_the documentation also seem well made
11:17:31kilon_I am interested in using nim together with another language Pharo
11:17:53kilon_I use Pharo as a replacement to python, and I want to use nim as a replacement for C
11:18:13Jehan_kilon_: You may want to talk to gokr about that. :)
11:18:16kilon_mainly to create c dlls that pharo will use
11:18:19baabelfishnim seems like a quite nice replacement for python also in my mind
11:18:29gokrhey
11:18:45kilon_Jehan_: its was actually gokr blog posts that introduced me to nim ;)
11:19:12kilon_baabelfish: yeap certainly it is
11:19:13gokrkilon_: We actually have some neat macros that generates .st file on the side that you file in - containing auto generated FFI calls.
11:19:14Jehan_kilon_: Well, his company is doing pretty much that.
11:19:43kilon_gokr: as a wrapper for dlls that nim creates ?
11:19:48gokryeah
11:19:53kilon_impressive
11:20:01gokrSo ... you compile the nim file, and it creates a dll (or .so) + a .st file
11:20:19kilon_very nice
11:20:22gokrYou file in the .st file, that gives you a class with class side methods - one per proc.
11:20:31gokrWith proper signatures.
11:20:37gokrFor the types that Squeak FFI supports.
11:20:47gokrThen you basically just use it.
11:21:01kilon_is it open source ?
11:21:26gokrIt should be, but... not sure if we published it openly, let me check
11:21:34kilon_sure
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11:22:07kilon_my project is making pharo control python, i use sockets which is kinda slow, so i was thinking creating a dll to make things go faster
11:22:30gokrWe drive Urhonimo this way.
11:22:34kilon_basically pharo sends string messages to python to exectue them
11:23:01*kilon_ googles urhonimo
11:23:17gokrIts not published yet, but we can probably publish it - might just want to fix the README first
11:23:50Rishavshi. raw beginner here. i was wondering how you create a new object? I can see two ways in the example; [xyz = object] and [xyz ref object of RootObj]
11:24:08Rishavswhich is the proper way and is there any difference between the two?
11:24:23kilon_here is my project --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPGDQc5LUvE
11:24:33baabelfishRishavs: you mean defining a type?
11:24:37kilon_ah nice i work with 3d graphics too, Blender in my case
11:25:04gokrYou can use Blender to produce content for Urho3D
11:25:19Rishavsnot sure. as i said i am a raw beginner who knows some JS and python
11:25:37baabelfishRishavs: http://nim-lang.org/docs/tut1.html#advanced-types-reference-and-pointer-types these tutorials are quite nice
11:25:44kilon_yeap Blender is very powerful
11:26:02gokrkilon_: There is an addon for Blender that exports directly to Urho3D.
11:26:16gokrBut the generic formats work fine too.
11:26:27Rishavsthanks bf, i went through them. i think i am on an info overload T_T
11:26:27kilon_gokr: i am not suprised, though i have not heard of Urho3d before
11:26:43gokrRishavs: For OO you might want to check my blog
11:26:53gokrRishavs: http://goran.krampe.se/category/nim/
11:27:00kilon_gokr: python inside Blender is very powerful, has complete access to Blender apart from deep internal stuff
11:27:14Rishavsthanks!
11:28:32baabelfishRishavs: you might want to read about pointers and value types also
11:30:24Rishavsi tried
11:30:30Rishavsbut there is just so much to absorb
11:30:39Rishavsas a scripting lang user
11:30:44Rishavstoo many new things
11:30:46Rishavs:(
11:30:51baabelfishheh
11:30:52kilon_Rishavs: hehe i can feel you, I come from python too :D
11:31:01Rishavsi just found a really nice article
11:31:06Rishavswhich should help me
11:31:06kilon_and i used to code in C++ long time ago
11:31:17baabelfishthis is the reason I think C++ is the best language to learn
11:31:17Rishavshttps://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/wiki/Nim-for-Python-Programmers
11:31:35Araqif you come from python my usual recommondation is to use 'type Foo = ref object'
11:31:46Araqor perhaps ref object of RootObj
11:32:23Jehan_Araq: RootObj or RootRef these days?
11:32:26Rishavsmy oops are really shaky
11:32:36Rishavsnever had to write more than 100 line simple scripts
11:32:50Rishavs:D
11:33:00AraqJehan_: well it doesn't matter, the 'ref' is stripped away in an 'of'
11:33:30baabelfishAraq: btw what is the nim equivalent of of std::decay?
11:33:40Jehan_Rishavs: You can basically think of a `type X = ref object ...` as the equivalent of `class X`, except that methods are declared separately and not as part of the type declaration.
11:33:56baabelfishI managed to create ref ref's accidentally when fooling around
11:33:57kilon_Rishavs: dont worry too much about it, take it step by step
11:34:00Jehan_It's not a true equivalence, but close enough for government work.
11:34:42kilon_Rishavs: i have create thousands of lines of code of OO python, but still it was a very line by line workflow
11:34:51Rishavsthanks everyone, i will now go read up on gokr's blog and and that nim-python article and come right back when i cant understand something
11:35:01gokrSure, welcome!
11:35:36kilon_I did read gokr blog posts on nim OO but I have to confuse i found them a bit confusing, but then it was only a first read
11:35:37gokrNote that my OO blog articles were written "as I learned" so... I should write a summary some day.
11:35:47kilon_*to confess
11:35:58gokrYeah, I got a bit wordy in them :)
11:36:27kilon_well nim approach is rather unique to OO from what i have read
11:36:34kilon_so it will take some time to get used to it
11:36:49gokrWell, I am not sure if its unique, but its quite pragmatic.
11:38:16Rishavsdo you mean composition over inheritense?
11:38:16kilon_i take your word for it, gokr, i started reading about nim just yesterday. By the way do you use it frequently ?
11:38:44gokrNim? sure, we use it a lot. More and more. I mean, heck, we hired Araq ;)
11:39:13Araqbaabelfish: do we need one? seems to be a hack required by C++'s rather unsatisfying type system
11:39:29gokrRishavs: If you use ref objects + methods its quite vanilla.
11:39:33kilon_oh you hired him, nice
11:40:15kilon_well if nim impressed a smalltalker, i feel obliged to at least take a deep look at it :D
11:40:16gokrRishavs: if you mix procs with methods, you need to know a bit more what you are doing, but it still works quite as expected I would say.
11:40:34gokr(procs being statically resolved, methods dynamically resolved)
11:41:07baabelfishAraq: it quarantees more safety to library user when using templates
11:42:18gokrkilon_: Nim has a very interesting "balance". Superb performance and interop with C/C++ but still being quite reasonable to work in (gc, easy to write and read etc). And then, tons of really interesting features to keep your interest :)
11:42:18Rishavsone question; do we have something like "this" is JS or "self" in python?
11:42:27Rishavshow do i refer to shared procs/metods?
11:42:43gokrRishavs: First argument. Just call it "self" and you are set :)
11:42:52Rishavssweet!
11:43:04kilon_gokr:
11:43:05gokrSo all procs/methods simply have the first argument being the "receiver".
11:43:34gokrSince Nim allows you to write "myProc(a, b)" as "a.myproc(b)" you have the OO style right there.
11:43:36kilon_gokr: the pythonic syntax and the promise of easy interface with C/C++ libraries is what have made it very appealing to me
11:43:48gokrkilon_: Indeed.
11:45:58gokrRishavs: For an example of a "shell-ish" app in Nim, I wrote blimp: https://gitlab.3dicc.com/gokr/blimp
11:46:20gokrIts very procedural, not much OO in there, so its probably easy to understand.
11:48:00Rishavsoh, i am able to write procedural code with simple functionas/procs
11:48:15gokrSure
11:48:21Rishavstoday i tried my hand at oops and realized i know nothing
11:48:28Rishavsbut thanks
11:48:30gokrAlso, koch.nim etc is also interesting to read
11:48:35Rishavs:(
11:49:34kilon_macros seem very interesting to as a lisp fan
11:50:56gokrkilon_: They are and its one of those "enablers" in the language. You don't have to use them, but you will pretty soon realize a lot in Nim is based on them and they do enable a lot of the language evolution to happen outside of Araq's head.
11:51:26gokrAnd of course, the Nim compiler is written in Nim - that also helps.
11:52:32kilon_definetly
11:52:56kilon_so for IDE Aporia is the best choice ?
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11:53:41coffeepotgokr, in blimp what does the stuff in square brackets do; [remote], [blimp] etc?
11:54:20gokrIn the config file?
11:54:32coffeepotin blimp.nim
11:54:47coffeepotsorry
11:54:51coffeepoti missed the """ :D
11:54:56gokrAh :)
11:55:15gokrYeah, its just a section marker in the config file
11:56:20gokrSo in short - blimp uses scp to handle big files inside git. It stores a small file in git with the md5sum hash in it, and then installs itself as a git filter to do the magic.
11:57:03gokrIts just like many other similar tools, but perhaps a bit more lightweight, no dependencies, 600 lines of code. Just plain scp.
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12:05:24kilon_hmm no binaries for Aporia
12:05:40kilon_oh well can use emacs instead
12:05:50coffeepotaporia is included in the binary for nim I think
12:06:41kilon_hmm let me look because i got the binary
12:08:38kilon_nope not there
12:10:21coffeepotthat's weird, the nim install from the website? I thought it included aporia under the dist folder
12:10:46coffeepotit's been a while since I used the website download though
12:11:38kilon_yeap downloaded that zip
12:12:33kilon_oh wait my bad , you mean the window binaries coffeepot, i am on macos
12:12:40coffeepotyeah from here http://nim-lang.org/download.html
12:12:47coffeepotah ok sorry :)
12:12:59kilon_yeah what i got was the source
12:13:06kilon_my mistake sorry
12:13:18coffeepotI should stop assuming windows lol
12:13:41coffeepotif you have nimble installed i think you can just nimble install aporia
12:13:51coffeepotor just use emacs like you were gonna XD
12:15:32kilon_yeah building GTK on macos is a PITA
12:15:47kilon_which is what aporia uses
12:15:58kilon_i tried to build GTK once, it was a nightmare
12:17:35coffeepoti used nimline with sublime for a while, worked pretty well
12:22:32coffeepotone thing I do like about windows is people tend to release .exes for stuff so I don't have to set up all the dependancies
12:28:47kilon_you mean installers
12:28:53kilon_thats what macos has too
12:29:12kilon_but usually apps are self contained so there is no need for installation which is even cooler
12:29:23coffeepotbut not gtk?
12:30:34kilon_GTK is a pita on macos
12:30:47kilon_frankly macos devs just dont use it
12:30:51kilon_QT is the king
12:33:18kilon_i dont think GTK is doing very well on Windows either
12:34:57coffeepotyeah doesn't look like there are any pure QT bindings for nim, though there is this https://github.com/PhilipWitte/NimQt
12:37:26coffeepotlooks like we have QML bindings tho
12:37:50kilon_well if nim is so easy to use with C++ should not be a problem
12:38:13coffeepotthe ffi is pretty easy to work with
12:39:30kilon_thats good enough for me
12:40:17kilon_though i wont be doing gui coding with nim, most likely i will be building small libraries to speed up Pharo
12:40:21coffeepotjust in case you haven't seen it, http://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#foreign-function-interface
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12:41:04coffeepotcool, sounds ideal :)
12:42:54kilon_no i have not , thank you coffeepot, will read it now
12:43:08coffeepotnp :)
12:43:23kilon_coffeepot: what project you work on ? and how long you have been using nim ?
12:44:12gokrkilon_: Its not out yet, but I think Araq is doing a wx wrapper
12:44:19coffeepotbeen fiddling about with nim since early in the year, but I'm no expert. I wrote an odbc library that I'm just in the process of sorting out to upload to github, so I can use nim at work with sql server
12:45:05coffeepotother than that, scripting at work gets done in nim and I'm cobbling together some opengl game stuff at home
12:45:12gokrkilon_: for wrapping of libraries you would use c2nim
12:45:16kilon_coffeepot: and what you think about nim ?
12:45:17gokrWhich is very capable these days
12:45:52gokrkilon_: I might have time to rewrite that README and release squeaknim later, but now I gotta go
12:45:58kilon_gokr: i am a bit perplexed with c2nim, as far as i have read it converting c code to nim code, is it really that efficient ?
12:46:09kilon_yeah sure
12:46:14kilon_see you later mate :)
12:46:26gokrAbove all c2nim generates wrappers.
12:46:39gokrBy parsing C/C++ headers.
12:47:06gokrSince Urho3D is C++, Araq spent quite some time recently making c2nim very capable. Templates etc, its no walk in the park.
12:47:21gokrcya
12:47:24kilon_ah ok
12:47:28kilon_then its a bit like cython
12:47:30kilon_ciao
12:47:40yglukhovhttps://github.com/Araq/wxnim ;)
12:48:05kilon_thanks
12:50:26coffeepotwell I originally started looking to learn a new language and came to python. Got all excited then realised dynamic typing wasn't for me. Found nim, and it's pretty much everything I personally wanted from a language: static typed, compiled to machine code (even better, to C so nice and portable and it's easy to use the billions of C libs out there
12:50:27coffeepot), produces tiny exes & doesn't include stuff you don't use in the exe, runs pretty close to C speed (which is great as I like writing simple games in my spare time), has loads of compile time checks, and recently I realised metaprogramming was the thing I never knew I needed
12:51:40coffeepotI was pretty disappointed that it wasn't easy to wrap up python into a single .exe to distribute (I know there's py2win etc). I'm surprised how important this is to me - one exe to distribute and no dependancies! :D
12:53:42coffeepotas for coding in nim, aside from metaprogramming which I am just learning how to work, everything is incredibly straight forward. UFCS is amazing and all languages should have it :) Everything kinda just seems simpler in nim
12:54:26coffeepotI find things that I had huge object frameworks before just fall into place easier with composition
12:56:01kilon_well i feel your pain, one of the reason why i gave up on python for pharo was how simple was with pharo to distribute my code, pharo does not even need to be installed
12:56:28onionhammer@varriount i like :)
12:56:31coffeepotyeah, I hate dealing with dependencies
12:57:04coffeepotnim seems to produce pretty lean exes too, even with debug builds.
12:57:50kilon_I am not a fan of compiled languages, because that means maintaing binaries for multiple platforms
12:58:52kilon_and i have to confess for that reason alone i will try to use nim as little as possible
12:59:20kilon_but still i will learn it
13:00:25coffeepotI *think* you can pass a config to compile from that can include different compile targets, but not sure
13:00:49coffeepotif it's not compiled though, surely you have to include the interpretter?
13:01:30coffeepotthat was the problem i had with python, even py2exe just includes the interpretter wrapped up in the exe
13:02:55coffeepotalso, python is super slow unless you're using numpy or something
13:04:35coffeepotI found that everything that I wrote that was too slow, I'd have to redo in C or Cython anyway, so why not just use a language that was compiled :3
13:05:23kilon_python slowness is a bit exaggerated
13:05:41coffeepotwell it depends what you're doing :)
13:05:51kilon_as a matter of fact it can beat C++ (see strings) and i would not be suprised if some python libs can beat nim libs too
13:13:16kilon_but yeah some pure python stuff are notoriously slow, sometimes even 1000 times
13:13:38kilon_but cython offers similar fuctionality to nim
13:13:47kilon_if you want to speed things up easily
13:14:41coffeepotyeah, tbh originally I was like "Yay Cython!" but I'd say Python isn't really built to have static types so it seems a bit clunky
13:15:01coffeepotin nim, you can write similar code to python with type inference but it's checked at compile time
13:15:44coffeepotbear in mind that I've mainly worked with statically typed languages so I'm biased (C, C++, Delphi)
13:17:18kilon_actually there are plans to introduces static types to python , they call it optional typing or something
13:17:42kilon_I am a huge fan of Delphi myself, I hate C++, I am ok with C
13:17:50coffeepotI did hear that, hopefully this'll allow better optimising
13:18:05kilon_i think they do it more for bug fixing
13:18:48kilon_frankly i never had issues with types
13:19:23kilon_but dont have an issue with static typing either
13:19:31kilon_both have pros and cons
13:20:20coffeepotyeah tbh Delphi is a really nice language to work with and the later versions are fairly good for modern features, but it suffers a bit from supporting backwards compatability
13:21:51coffeepotalso it's much less sophisticated than modern languages like nim at it's core. Generics for instance, they work okay in Delphi, but it seems limited when you want to support something a bit more sophisticated. In nim, generics are simple and powerful by comparison
13:22:20coffeepotalso delphi's inlining is shit lol
13:25:29AraqCython's notion of a "type system" is "let's annotate "ints" and "floats" to get performance"
13:26:27Araqhow do you do a set of enum in Cython? "int"?
13:26:28kilon_There is also Delphi open source child, Lazarus and Free Pascal
13:27:19kilon_Araq: hmm no idea, i have barely used cython but i have heard a lot of good things about it by people who have performance wise , it was funded by google at some point
13:28:41kilon_coffeepot: I tried to go back to Delphi after python but I could not :D But the IDE is still awesome
13:28:58kilon_this IDE is for seminar on how IDEs should be made
13:29:11coffeepotLazarus is amazing but it's not something I consider moving forward from Delphi. For a start generics are even more clunky. The GUI stuff is stellar though. I've considered using Lazarus front end / nim backend a few times
13:29:58kilon_well who knows maybe some coders will pick lazarus and use it as a nim IDE
13:30:02coffeepotyeah Araq is right, Cython has type annotation but it's a poor substitute for a language built for static types
13:30:08kilon_how you call yourselves ? nimers ?
13:30:25Araqnimsters, I think
13:30:34coffeepotnumulons :3
13:30:38kilon_well Cython is not a language, its a tool to create wrappers for python
13:30:52kilon_lol
13:31:00coffeepotnumulonions?
13:31:04kilon_nimsters sounds a bit like hamsters
13:31:13coffeepotnimmers?
13:31:18coffeepot*ahem*
13:31:31VarriountMeh. I've always like 'nimster' more than 'nimmer'
13:31:34kilon_nimeronians :D
13:31:44VarriountI guess that could work too though.
13:31:49kilon_nimster it is then
13:32:02kilon_i would not choose Cython over nim
13:32:21kilon_nim looks more well though out
13:32:40coffeepotyeah that's the key, everything is very well considered in nim and Araq knows his stuff
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13:33:41coffeepottbh I've learnt more about programming from learning nim than in years of actual programming as a job, because the reasons for things are made explicit
13:34:14kilon_is there a plan when nim v 1 will be release, should i be worries that if i wrote code will be broken in a few months ?
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13:40:39def-kilon_: i haven't seen much breakage over the last year, and when something breaks it's usually easy to fix
13:43:22Araqfrom time to time I design "Nim version 2" which throws out every feature I don't like. The result is an unusable language that doesn't support a single nimble package out there. it's a great cure. ;-)
13:45:04AraqI mean it's a cure for me, then I can continue to work on Nim version 1.
13:47:47kilondef-: thats very good to know
13:48:57kilonyeah python devs were eager for python 3 except the users :D who would have guessed that people hate to rewrite code
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13:49:20kilonbut in the end, you cant stop progress, so some breakage is ok for me
13:52:42Araqbut there is no progress in requiring print to have () :P
13:53:23kilonAraq: functions in python are objects so maybe there is ;)
13:53:46Araqso? procs in Nim are firstclass too
13:54:01reactormonkAraq, start with converters?
13:54:09kilonyes but print "this" is a statement
13:55:19kilonwell was a statement
13:55:50kilonand python is no nim to have macros to manipulate its syntax
13:56:06kilonmaybe making it a function maybe it made it more flexible
13:57:39kilonAraq: the full explanation if you are interested is here --> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3105/
13:58:17Araqthey could easily allow to omit () for every statement level function call to get more consistency with 'print'
13:58:53kilonthats doing things more than on way, and its considered as not pythonic
13:59:39kiloni dont agree with this minimalistic philosophy "one way" of doing stuff, but I dont disagree either
14:00:45kiloncurrently just using print with the '()' will reference the object itself which is the function so you can do
14:00:49kilona = print
14:00:55kilona("hello world")
14:01:02baabelfishI would love a definition for progress in the context of programming
14:01:37Araqthe tradeoff here is "breaking every Python 2 module" vs. "a minor violation of 'there can be only one way' "
14:02:10Araqwhere "there can only be one way" never made any sense to begin with since Python is dynamically typed
14:02:16kilonwell 3 was generally a major breakage in many ways so they had little reason to stop at print
14:02:47kilonbut i rather no talk about python politics
14:03:00kiloni am not affiliated nor qualified to talk about the python internals
14:03:24Araqit was obviously a stupid decision.
14:03:29kilon:D
14:04:04kilonyou think if nim becomes very popular like python wont be making stupid decisions ?
14:05:13coffeepoti think python's "one way" was more a method of avoid the chaos of dynamic typing ;)
14:05:19kilonbut in any case as a language designer you more about this than me
14:05:45kiloncoffeepot: no the idea is a language and a library that you can fit inside your head
14:06:01Araqno, I already made every mistake.
14:06:20kilonpython started as scripting language for C/C++
14:06:27Araqfrom now on stuff only gets better and better :P
14:06:32kilonlol
14:06:41kiloni seriously hope so
14:06:44kilon:D
14:06:57coffeepotsure, but the code written in the language doesn't fit in your head because you gotta track what these typeless identifiers refer to (at least, in my limited experience). Not knocking python though, as I say I'm a bit biased towards static typing
14:07:33kiloncoffeepot: and as i said, i never had an issue with that, and as we say in Pharo, dont blame your language , blame your IDE
14:07:56coffeepotIDEs certainly do help. Pycharm is amazing
14:08:08kilonwell unless your language is C++
14:08:19bogenkilon: if python started as a scripting language for C/C++ I can't figure out why you only get one global python scope/instance when you embed python in C/C++... very short sighted.... so, as I scripting language for C/C++, to me python is a fail...
14:09:12kilonbogen: i am ok with people who hate/dislike python, i love it because it was very easy to learn and very productive with it
14:09:37coffeepoti guess I'm thinking of a specific example where I was trying to convert a python script to nim, and I ended up pulling my hair out trying to work out what these identifiers actually were, and kept having to backtrace through defs to work out what it was passing :) I'm not a python pro though. On the other hand, dynamic typing is pretty powerful in
14:09:37coffeepot it's own right, it just vexes me :)
14:10:17kilonwell variable names can help here
14:10:31bogenkilon: I use a python a lot to, and I do recommend it for some stuff. I just see of much of the standard C python implemenation as being fundamentally flawed
14:10:51kilonin Pharo we also have a tool, called inspector that displays the object and you can browse through the class and find all sort of info
14:11:22kilonbogen: i cant disagree with you there, have no clue about python internals
14:12:04kiloncoffeepot: so i think when you get confused about your kind of data, IDE must be blamed, this is essential tooling
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14:13:03kilonyou can even say I care more about IDEs than I care about language
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14:13:53AraqI will create my own editor from scratch soon ...
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14:14:20Araqall the existing ones suck ;-)
14:14:43coffepotyeah to be fair I was working in plain text, no ide. But I can do that fine in nim because the compiler will tell me off if I do something dumb
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14:15:30coffepotI hear there's a project to bring nim to intellij IDEA... with debugging... that would be so sweet
14:16:35kilonAraq: love the idea of IDEs written for one and only one language and written in that language
14:17:15kilonas cool as languages written in themselves, which is what nim and pharo is and python is not
14:17:25bogeneditors and ides should not be shared. (apart from line editors). It should be a requirment that if you want to be a programmer and you don't want to use a line editor, then you need to write your own editor/ide. That would thin out the global programming ranks down to about what they should be
14:18:08Araqmeh, mine wouldn't be a traditional IDE, it would start as a terminal+editor hybrid
14:18:36kilonwell one has to start from simple
14:18:39Araqso that I never to use pathetic terminals ever again
14:18:42kilonmaking an IDE is a ton of work
14:18:56kilonespecially a good one
14:19:03coffepotdepends on what you consider an IDE
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14:20:03kiloncoffeepot: if was in snob mode, I would say that i consider Pharo/Smalltalk and Delphi as the only true IDEs
14:20:05bogenif I can shell out or run an external command and gets it's output in my editor, I consider that an IDE
14:20:13kilonmaybe emacs too ? maybe
14:20:50coffeepotimho if aporia had integrated debugging and nimsuggest suggested procs and vars after '.', I would be totally happy
14:21:04kilonthe rest of IDEs I have used are from very bad to meh ok
14:21:14Araqspeaking of which, why 2>&1 >error.txt doesn't work?
14:22:14Araqkilon: yeah but I would only implement what I personally need when I need it. and maybe I wouldn't even open source it
14:22:25kilonwhat I want from an IDE, is inspector , debugger, manipulation of live objects, version control gui, auto completion, method and class finder , onboard documentation , gui designers
14:22:46kilonAraq: ah ok
14:23:05kilonanyway i am ok without an ide with nim for using it for small code fragments for small libs
14:23:06coffeepotto me gui designers shouldn't be a requirement. Delphi only has that because the vcl is tied to the language
14:23:15kiloni love using emacs anyway
14:23:20coffeepotother than that i agree
14:24:18kiloni may wrap nim to use the Pharo ide anyway, gokr already have made his own integration from he told me
14:24:44kilonbut i should be ok with just emacs or Sublime
14:25:14kiloncoffeepot: if i was making gui apps, a gui design would have been a must have
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14:25:37kilonactually XCode on macos is pretty decent
14:26:07Araqkilon: IO redirection doesn't work for OpenQwaq, any idea?
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14:27:41kilonAraq: well i took a look at OpenQwaq because it has an interface for python as an example to use for my own project that also interface with python and ended up making my own socket implementation
14:27:48kiloni did not understand the code frankly
14:28:10kilonits a dead project anyway
14:28:15kilonif i am not mistaken
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14:29:22kilonAraq: you could ask at the squeak mailing list
14:29:50Araqnever mind, it kind of worked
14:29:50kiloni am not even using squeak, i am using pharo, its a fork for squeak but have changed so much its no longer compatible
14:30:11kilongood
14:30:13AraqI have Pharo open right now too
14:30:25Araqlooks quite nice
14:30:31kilonits awesome
14:30:54kilonhas its flaws, but is so brilliantly designed
14:31:03kiloneven for a smalltalk
14:31:32kilonif you have pharo 4 or 5, hit shift+enter, for the Spotter tool
14:31:48kilonits a finder, on steroids
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14:32:28kilonfull navigatable with shortcuts, has previews, its own plugin system and much more
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14:32:37kiloncan even nagigate through directories
14:35:07kiloni extended it with only few lines of code, to even search help documentation and preview it and open it on enter
14:38:25kilonhere is a tutorial i made for Spotter --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNh6VtPy8m4
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15:32:45drewsremIs there an option to have packed seqs?
15:33:14drewsremor are seqs never aligned?
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15:38:43Jehan_drewsrem: What precisely do you mean by a packed seq?
15:38:55Jehan_Internally, a seq is basically a dynamic C array.
15:39:21r-kudrewsrem if you want some kind of abi compatibility use arrays
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15:40:06Jehan_struct { ssize_t capacity, len; ElemType data[n] }, basically.
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15:40:30Jehan_Oops, missed a semicolon, but you get the idea.
15:42:43drewsremThanks I see
15:44:57sparrkHey guys, I've been working on putting together a ffi tutorial for calling Nim from Ruby. I'm still kinda new to Nim and I'd like some help figuring out how to *debug* when I get these types of problems: `SIGSEGV: Illegal storage access. (Attempt to read from nil?)` My
15:45:20sparrkNim code is here https://gist.github.com/zachaysan/eacba793c66f848a7135 and the Ruby code calling it is here: https://gist.github.com/zachaysan/71c0cf0ddf63782992a8 everything works except the very last line of ruby
15:46:43coffeepoti think you need to call new(Person) as it's a ref
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15:49:10coffeepotas in, var p: Person; new(p); p.age = 55
15:49:11sparrkAh thank you very much
15:49:24sparrkoh, no, the Nim code worked
15:49:25coffeepot:)
15:49:29sparrkbut the key insite
15:49:31sparrkinsight
15:49:58sparrkwas to change the Person declaration to ` Person* = object`
15:50:13sparrkthanks for your help!
15:50:34coffeepotnp :D
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16:02:19drewsremIs there some bitarray module I'm overlooking?
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16:04:03Jehan_drewsrem: Depends on what exactly you need?
16:04:26drewsremJust a container that compactly stores bits
16:04:43Jehan_sets are bit arrays underneath, but have a fixed length with a maximum size of 64k.
16:05:03Jehan_The intset module is a flexible, sparse bit array.
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16:05:05drewsremAh that'll do it
16:05:07Jehan_intsets*
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16:16:16drewsremit seems sizeof is broken in macros, if I take a typed param X and I echo X.getType.sizeof I always get back 8 it seems
16:16:29drewsremor I'm confusing things
16:18:19fowlBecause thats a pointer its size is 8bytes
16:20:38drewsremAny solution?
16:20:44drewsremI can't dereference it in a macro?
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16:21:51drewsremI can but I can't sizeof it
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16:23:09fowlWell
16:23:13fowlIts a nimnode
16:23:16fowlAst
16:23:37fowlSurely you dont want the size of that but the underlying type right
16:24:12drewsremI do
16:24:22drewsremah
16:24:23drewsremno
16:24:24drewsremyes
16:24:26drewsremthe latter
16:25:08drewsremMacro, takes a typed param, echoes the size of the type of typed param
16:25:22drewsremAh which is Nimnode
16:25:24drewsremso nvm
16:25:26drewsremWhat you said
16:26:48fowlYou have to find the symbol you need from that ast (its not real code coming from getType(), its a type graph) and emit sizeof(thesym)
16:27:01fowland you cant get that at compile time afaik
16:27:29drewsremmeh
16:27:58drewsremfowl, thanks tho
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16:30:20drewsremright, the compiler does alignment and stuff, can't work
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16:32:57fowlAt best it could only guess what size c will give the data
16:39:16drewsremWell nim does know the size of types like uint8 int16 etc. right
16:39:22drewsremand packed objects
16:39:30drewsremSo that's something
16:39:38drewsremI guess
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16:49:29Demosyou can pretty much predict data layout
16:49:45Demosand C actually provides alignment flags
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17:06:32grumblyI've a git nim repo question (the #git irc is silent). One local copy I have is from version 0.10.2 (devel). I'm trying to update via 'git fetch origin devel' then 'git merge origin devel' but the result is... I'm now at version 0.10.3. What's going on?
17:08:12grumblyAs a workaround I delete my local repo, then git clone again to get the latest. Why do I have to do this every time, and only for the nim repository. I don't have this issue with others.
17:09:42Jehan_grumbly: Huh, nim-lang/nim devel should be at 0.11.3?
17:11:59Jehan_And git describe HEAD gives me: v0.11.2-987-gb251625
17:12:35Jehan_(On devel.)
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17:15:12reactormonkgrumbly, try devel branch
17:16:55grumblyI thought the devel branch was what I was trying by 'git fetch origin devel' then 'git merge origin/devel'
17:17:09grumblyAnd I was on my local devel branch
17:18:00grumblyAh, the stored remote repository was using the old ...Araq/nim.git address. That's probably why.
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17:19:42grumblyAnd I had several old local copies, attempting to update them in turn so it seemed like it "kept happening" over a long period.
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18:29:43ldleworkHi guys
18:29:47ldleworkHow's Nim coming along?
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18:57:07Demos_it's pretty cool
18:57:09Demos_u should use it
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19:07:32zaspardNim is working out great ldlework. I've been running it in production for 2 weeks now. Granted it's doing some fairly basic stuff (postgres, api crawling, and classifying) but I haven't had problems and it is lighting fast.
19:08:57sparrkQuestion: are there any concerns with creating shared objects in Nim and the automatic GC if you are only using one .so file?
19:13:49Demos_there can be
19:14:00Demos_you gotta be careful when doing heap memory across a library
19:14:12Demos_from nim -> nim it should be fine though
19:14:27Demos_as long as you use nimrtl
19:16:11sparrkWell I'm making a guide as part of a push to get more Ruby devs interested in Nim
19:16:24sparrkI've put it up here for now: http://nim.community/answers/create_a_shared_library/ but I'm not sharing it around yet
19:16:43Demos_most ruby devs probably don't know that much about how shared libraries work
19:16:53Demos_and just use them as dependencies for their ruby project
19:16:57sparrkI have a client meeting now, but I log this channel, so if you have any more information I'll see it when I get back
19:17:04Demos_OK have fun
19:17:07sparrkI know Demos_ but that can change with the right guides :)
19:17:18Demos_right, but if I were a ruby dev I would not really care
19:17:22sparrkAnd thanks for your help
19:17:26Demos_I would care about the metaprogramming and speed
19:17:41Demos_and the fact that using other nim libraries from nim is seamless (and does not require a shared library)
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19:35:16NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 94e5041 Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: fixes #3193
19:35:16NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 2e4b59f Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: fixes #3192
19:35:16NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel c733b31 Araq [+2 ±2 -0]: breaking change: symbol lookups in generics follows spec more closely; fixes #2664
19:38:31Araqhrm, I broke bootstrapping?
19:39:10AraqVarriount: what's wrong with the builders?
19:41:39dom96NimBuild is building it fine
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20:32:21NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 87815cb Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: attempt to fix bootstrapping; refs #3139
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20:34:15Araqwhen it becomes ever more hard to support building 0.11.3 from 0.11.2 it's high time we release a new version, right?
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21:25:07baabelfishwhat is the equivalent of "const T& myVar"
21:25:14baabelfishappend question mark
21:27:01baabelfishin function parameter context
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21:45:31fowlbaabelfish T
21:45:54fowlBut hang on I'll link you to something
21:47:28baabelfishfowl: compiler works these thinks out for me then? :)
21:47:33baabelfishthings*
21:48:14fowlYea
21:49:06fowlThe param will be immutable, will be passed by ref if its bigger than 8 bytes (some rule like that)
21:49:07gokrVarriount: The 32 bit Linux builder is down, but I will fix it after the weekend. We got guests in that room and its noisy :)
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21:49:57baabelfishfowl: if I manipulate it, it will copy it implicitly?
21:50:16baabelfishI need "Nim for C++ programmers" :D
21:56:38Araqyou cannot manipulate it, it's immutable
21:58:13baabelfish"cannot be assigned to" indeed
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22:02:43shodan45so what's new in nim? I've been away for a few months :/
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22:04:57Araqshodan45: r-ku implemented proper coroutines for Nim
22:06:09dom96Araq went to OSCON
22:06:13dom96and did a tutorial
22:06:46Araqoh yeah
22:07:02dom96Araq: I still didn't get an email from them btw
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22:28:04baabelfishWhy isn't initialization allowed in the definition off a type?
22:28:08baabelfishof*
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22:33:51dom96baabelfish: I'm not sure there is a reason. But it would just be some syntax sugar.
22:34:21dom96If you would really like to see it then create an RFC/Feature request on Github, describe exactly what you want though.
22:34:29dom96with examples etc
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22:38:21baabelfishdom96: ok
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22:56:42NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 7bc3d7d Yuriy Glukhov [+0 ±1 -0]: Fixes #3186
22:56:42NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 8668c42 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge pull request #3190 from yglukhov/fix-3186... 2 more lines
22:57:07NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 3fe3979 Ryan Gonzalez [+0 ±1 -0]: Fix contributing guide rST
22:57:07NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 06a8c37 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge pull request #3156 from kirbyfan64/contr_fix... 2 more lines
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