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| 14:20:40 | filwit | hi guys |
| 14:21:23 | Trixar_za | hi filwit |
| 14:22:28 | filwit | bleh, brb |
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| 15:48:41 | Araq | hi filwit |
| 15:48:48 | filwit | hi Araq |
| 15:48:54 | filwit | how's it been? |
| 15:49:23 | dom96 | hello everyone |
| 15:49:31 | filwit | hi dom |
| 15:50:06 | dom96 | filwit: I'm glad you're still with us, haven't seen you in a while :) |
| 15:50:32 | filwit | I'm here, I'm just at the end of a project that's been taking up all my time |
| 15:50:46 | Araq | filwit: working hard on closures |
| 15:51:11 | filwit | I have four days left (entering a contents hopefully), so all my time will be dedicated to that for until then |
| 15:51:21 | filwit | contest** |
| 15:51:30 | filwit | Araq: awsome! |
| 15:51:42 | filwit | awesome** (can't type atm) |
| 15:52:02 | Araq | yeah and then I'll fix some minor bugs and then I may work on the "compiler as a service" (TM) feature .... |
| 15:53:36 | filwit | awesome, compiler as a service is going to kick ass :) |
| 15:54:50 | filwit | really, the only other thing comparable (besides dynamic languages) is C#'s Roslyn and NRefactory projects, and neither is fully exploited yet |
| 15:55:29 | filwit | I haven't been able to work on Aporia for the last couple days, but I've been making this "intelligent indent" feature |
| 15:55:56 | filwit | but I kept thinking how great it would be to just get information about the AST and use that instead of parsing |
| 15:56:23 | Araq | hm? what do you have in mind? |
| 15:56:32 | filwit | so I'm pretty excited about that one :D |
| 15:56:43 | Araq | the compiler can easily return an AST |
| 15:56:51 | Araq | but I wonder what you're gonna do with it :-) |
| 15:57:47 | filwit | well, there are tons of possibilities. IDE suggest and intelligent indenting are just the start. |
| 15:58:01 | filwit | what would be really great, is to use if for a game engine editor |
| 15:58:54 | filwit | my idea is to have an Game Scene Editor (think Unity3D) which holds objects and you can write scripts in an external IDE (Aporia) |
| 15:59:45 | filwit | but all the "GameObjects" are actually just generated Nimrod types, which are compiled for you |
| 16:00:44 | Araq | can't really follow ;-) |
| 16:02:54 | filwit | well, in Unity3D there are objects that are constructed through the Editor, basically you have a "GameObject" which holds a list of "Components", each component is a unique construct used by the Game Engine, eg, Mesh, RigidBody, etc.. |
| 16:03:52 | filwit | the problem is all the scripts need to be written externally and by hand |
| 16:04:17 | filwit | comparing that to say Blender, where you can drag-drop "Constraints" onto objects directly in the editor |
| 16:05:02 | filwit | the problem, is that Blenders Constraints aren't very efficient because each one represents and small blob of code that can't be inlined. |
| 16:06:12 | filwit | so my idea is to have an Editor where there is a drag-drop constraints system, like Blender, but when you press run, all constraints are compiled into an effecient construction |
| 16:06:46 | filwit | I've been thinking about this kind of thing for awhile now, and there's a lot of parts to it that I can't really explain over IRC |
| 16:07:09 | Araq | yeah it's hard to follow |
| 16:07:18 | Araq | but just tell me what you need ;-) |
| 16:07:47 | Araq | we also have a (shitty) binary format for the AST and routines to load&store it |
| 16:08:22 | filwit | okay, I'll write up a more complete overview and post it somewhere once you get to compiler as a service stuff |
| 16:08:33 | filwit | that's awesome! |
| 16:09:56 | filwit | right now though I'm a bit pressed to finish everything up for my current game project |
| 16:10:17 | dom96 | filwit: Out of curiosity, what contest are you entering? |
| 16:10:56 | filwit | Microsoft's Dream.Build.Play |
| 16:11:33 | dom96 | nice. |
| 16:12:28 | filwit | our initial release will be for WP7 and Xbox (indi), but we will have other builds available later for Linux, Andriod, iOS, etc |
| 16:12:55 | filwit | we entered the contest a bit late so our project's a bit simple :S |
| 16:13:06 | filwit | but I'll show y'all when we're done :) |
| 16:53:59 | dom96 | filwit: So, what is the progress on closures? |
| 16:54:21 | filwit | don't know ;-) you should probably ask Araq |
| 16:54:24 | dom96 | er, I mean Araq |
| 16:54:30 | dom96 | Sorry lol |
| 16:55:05 | filwit | ;) |
| 17:01:38 | Araq | dom96: progress is slow ... |
| 17:02:16 | dom96 | pity |
| 17:02:44 | Araq | my shoulder is hurting |
| 17:03:28 | dom96 | poor you :( |
| 17:03:51 | dom96 | I think I've caught a cold. |
| 17:19:35 | Araq | so! time for a beer to lessen the pain and get productive :-) |
| 17:31:27 | dom96 | I wish I had some beer... :( |
| 18:24:12 | filwit | honestly I'm not much of a beer person |
| 18:24:23 | filwit | if I do drink beer, it's gotta be dark |
| 18:24:57 | filwit | but I'm more about shots or mixed drinks if I'm gonna drink |
| 18:25:12 | filwit | beer usually just starts to run through me at a certain point |
| 18:25:22 | Araq | filwit: no problem; you're still welcome ;-) |
| 18:25:31 | filwit | haha |
| 18:26:34 | filwit | you know what's good that doesn't sound very good? |
| 18:26:43 | filwit | vodka and dr. pepper |
| 18:27:11 | Araq | hm I think somebody wanted me to try that |
| 18:27:22 | Araq | but meh, it indeed doesn't sound good |
| 18:27:54 | filwit | ya when I tried it the first time, I thought it was going to be a bad mix |
| 18:28:10 | filwit | but somehow the dr. pepper really masks the vodka |
| 18:28:19 | filwit | and the combo is really good |
| 18:28:35 | filwit | gotta get flavorless vodka though |
| 18:28:59 | Araq | so it masks a flavorless vodka? ;-) |
| 18:29:24 | Araq | well it better would |
| 18:29:27 | Araq | :D |
| 18:29:44 | filwit | lol, i meant don't buy the fruity vodka flavors or it tastes odd |
| 18:30:28 | filwit | btw, you guys see that new Square Enix tech demo? |
| 18:30:57 | filwit | it's fairly insane the quality of real-time graphics they're pushing with it |
| 18:31:52 | Araq | no, link? |
| 18:32:36 | filwit | http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UVX0OUO9ptU\ |
| 18:33:09 | filwit | I wounder what kind of hardware setup they're running that on though |
| 18:35:32 | Araq | wait ... this is all realtime rendered? o.O |
| 18:35:40 | filwit | ya it's nuts |
| 18:35:54 | filwit | the characters hair still blows my mind every time i see it |
| 18:36:39 | filwit | I'm not sure if they're using some sort of polygon layer system, or actually simulating each strand, but it's pretty amazing either way |
| 18:37:14 | Araq | yeah impressive |
| 18:37:30 | Araq | on the other hand you can do all sorts of tricks for a "tech demo" |
| 18:38:11 | dom96 | Have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvfn1p92_8 |
| 18:38:17 | dom96 | (Unreal Engine 4) |
| 18:38:38 | Araq | no ... argh stop it :-) |
| 18:38:41 | dom96 | I think all developers are getting ready for the next generation consoles |
| 18:38:43 | Araq | I need to get work done |
| 18:38:51 | filwit | not yet, but I hear they're on edge about a UE4 linux client |
| 18:39:17 | filwit | lol Araq, me too, me too... |
| 18:40:18 | dom96 | The internet unfortunately has the power to give valuable information but to also make you procrastinate :P |
| 18:42:11 | filwit | yes, but the trade is worth it ;-) |
| 18:42:37 | dom96 | of course :D |
| 18:51:32 | filwit | wow that Unreal tech is pretty nice |
| 18:51:44 | Araq | indeed |
| 18:52:45 | filwit | have you guys seen the Atomontage Voxel game engine? |
| 18:53:13 | filwit | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnboAnQjMKE |
| 18:58:05 | filwit | my brother (and I, a bit) made a voxel ray tracer awhile ago |
| 18:58:34 | Araq | I always thought voxels are the way to go :-) |
| 18:58:44 | Araq | but they got no hardware support |
| 18:58:50 | filwit | but it was GPU based and limited to what could fit into a 3D texture |
| 18:59:06 | filwit | well, the biggest problem is animation |
| 18:59:45 | filwit | but I agree, at a certain point voxels will be more efficient to render large scenes with lots of details |
| 19:00:47 | filwit | because tracing through data means you never process anything you wont use (like you do with rasterization) |
| 19:02:12 | Araq | hey, feel free to disagree, I have no knowledge of graphics programming whatsoever :-) |
| 19:02:28 | * | Araq can't be an expert in everything ;-) |
| 19:02:53 | filwit | I was actually agreeing with you ;-) |
| 19:03:26 | Araq | I noticed |
| 19:03:34 | Araq | and was disappointed :D |
| 19:03:42 | filwit | oh, lol |
| 19:04:11 | filwit | seriously though, I've thought voxels are the future for some time. Just animation's a big problem |
| 19:05:01 | filwit | my brothers voxel raytracer can be found at the bottom of his showcase, btw: http://reign-studios.com/showcase/ |
| 19:07:26 | filwit | not quite the Atomontage engine, but it was pretty cool to make ;) |
| 19:15:09 | dom96 | Damn. I wish I had a brother who is a programmer. |
| 19:16:47 | filwit | yes I'm very lucky, honestly I probably wouldn't be a programmer (or much of one) at all if my brother an I hadn't grown up and worked on programming together |
| 19:21:33 | filwit | unfortunately, he's a bit of a stickler about his code :) for instance I told him about Nimrods case insensitivity and he thought it was a horrible idea :( |
| 19:23:41 | Araq | filwit: implement a "show identifiers as I prefer" for aporia please :-) |
| 19:24:20 | filwit | Araq: what do you mean? |
| 19:24:34 | Araq | style settings: |
| 19:24:37 | Araq | * camelCase |
| 19:24:43 | Araq | * underscores_please |
| 19:24:49 | filwit | ahh... good idea |
| 19:28:21 | filwit | that shouldn't be difficult, although I'm not GTK expert, so I'm not sure how to make it *display* that without changing the actual file. But I will add that to my list of TODOs |
| 19:28:45 | filwit | perhaps a refactoring tool would be best first |
| 19:29:18 | filwit | but eventually it would be great to have that as a simple *view* setting |
| 19:29:40 | Araq | ugh no refactoring please; I want a *view* setting :-) |
| 19:30:07 | Araq | refactoring is a bit harder since for instance {.importc.} defaults to the name as spelt |
| 19:30:08 | filwit | k I'll make that the priority, though a refactoring tool would be useful as well |
| 19:30:30 | Araq | ok but a refactoring tool needs to understand a bit of nimrod to do it properly |
| 19:32:17 | filwit | k, I'll look into the view setting first then |
| 19:32:36 | filwit | and maybe wait until you're ready with compiler-as-a-service to tackle the refactorying |
| 19:32:48 | filwit | refactoring** |
| 19:32:58 | Araq | thanks, Aporia really needs this feature to convince people of Nimrod's weird casing rule |
| 19:34:12 | filwit | yes. Also, eventually if you still plan on allowing C {} brace styles (I'm not sure you are) that might also work nicely as a "view setting", if not a bit harder to make |
| 19:35:19 | filwit | eventually we might need to replace GTKSourceView with something we have a bit more control over, but again, I'm no GTK expert, so I'm not sure of it's limitations with things like this. But I have no problem learning |
| 19:35:39 | filwit | and I'm glad to help where I can |
| 19:35:41 | dom96 | What kind of control would you like to have? |
| 19:36:14 | dom96 | btw I think we should make sure that me and you don't work on the same thing for aporia. |
| 19:36:47 | dom96 | It seems you're eager to implement a lot of things; which I have absolutely no problem with :P |
| 19:37:12 | filwit | dom96: yes we need to coordinate our efforts |
| 19:37:23 | Araq | filwit: {} are fine with me but harder to do and require some thinking |
| 19:37:42 | Araq | as {} is a set constructor and the distinction between exprs and stmts is about to be removed |
| 19:39:07 | dom96 | filwit: Well currently I am very busy with exams, so I doubt i'll be implementing anything. Although it would be good if you could pop into this channel once in a while and mention what you're working on :) |
| 19:40:31 | filwit | well, to respond to you both, I'm thinking that once compiler-service is ready, and the IDE has efficient access to the AST, then displaying the code might be best done ourselves (no GTKSourceView) because we could more easially adjust the display of code and work place the "cursor/selection" through the AST directly (which is something I wanted to mention to you once we're there Araq) |
| 19:41:14 | filwit | if the AST supported "selection", or we could build a selection model that matches the AST |
| 19:41:44 | Araq | that's a TON of work though |
| 19:42:05 | filwit | then it would make certain things much easier and efficient |
| 19:42:08 | Araq | plus gtksourceview works with other languages which is nice |
| 19:42:38 | filwit | Araq: I have no problem using gtksourceview if it can do what I want |
| 19:42:52 | filwit | Araq: but I also have no problem making my own, if it doesn't |
| 19:43:34 | Araq | alright |
| 19:43:45 | dom96 | hrm, i'm not sure I follow. |
| 19:44:18 | dom96 | What exactly do you need the gtksourceview to allow you to do? |
| 19:44:27 | filwit | well for instance, when you place the cursor down, the IDE should know exactly where that is in the AST, not just the "text" |
| 19:44:50 | filwit | similarly the selection need to know where what AST is selected |
| 19:45:09 | dom96 | I see. |
| 19:45:25 | dom96 | I think this could be possible. |
| 19:45:31 | filwit | if that is possible, then our suggest and refactorying, and viewing "styles" will be much, much easier to do |
| 19:46:21 | filwit | also, and this isn't really important, but I really don't like how the GTKSourceView doesn't style operators like "{" and ":" |
| 19:46:33 | dom96 | Wouldn't it be possible to find out where we are in the AST based on the location of the cursor in the source code? |
| 19:47:01 | Araq | dom96: yes of course |
| 19:47:47 | dom96 | filwit: How would you like it to be styled? I'm sure what you want can be accomplished by editing gtk's language file for Nimrod. |
| 19:47:55 | filwit | dom96: yes it is, but then you're basically breaking the entire beauty of "working" with the AST because you'll need to parse through the text of the GTKSourceView to understand where you are in the AST |
| 19:48:30 | filwit | dom96: rather than having the "source view" simply display the AST data like text |
| 19:48:35 | filwit | if that makes any sense |
| 19:48:52 | Araq | filwit: I fear a pure AST editor won't fly |
| 19:49:05 | filwit | what are you fears? |
| 19:49:10 | Araq | as rendering an AST to text is nontrivial |
| 19:49:21 | Araq | nimrod's compiler can in fact already does it |
| 19:49:37 | Araq | but it's never as good as a human is able to do it |
| 19:49:53 | dom96 | filwit: Are you actually thinking of being able to render the AST as a graph and allowing it to be edited that way? |
| 19:49:53 | Araq | newlines get lost and then there is the problem of string literals: |
| 19:50:20 | Araq | you can write "\xA" or "\10" or "\L" ... |
| 19:50:35 | Araq | and the AST doesn't keep this information |
| 19:50:58 | Araq | however, render it differently than in the original text and it will annoy users |
| 19:51:33 | filwit | dom96: the way the AST is displayed would be very easy to change, and other abstract ways of editing could be possible, but mostly Text editing is the most efficient way to code |
| 19:52:51 | filwit | Araq: I don't really want to "render it differently", I want the IDE to know exactly what AST is being manipulated *first* |
| 19:53:16 | filwit | Araq: and the reason is because then features like we see with the LightTable project become much more realistic |
| 19:53:36 | filwit | Araq: If we could accomplish something like that with Nimrod, it would surely turn heads |
| 19:53:37 | Araq | well the compiler can easily output an AST for you |
| 19:53:54 | Araq | but I don't get the details you have in mind |
| 19:54:00 | Araq | so just tell me |
| 19:54:49 | filwit | and again, I'm not saying GTKSourceView can't do this, I'm just saying I don't know and I need to find out first, but if I learn that I'm going to be fight with the "text editor" with every feature, I'd rather spend the time make the core component correctly |
| 19:55:21 | filwit | Araq: yes, I will need to write out all the ideas I have in mind for the IDE and present it in one pass |
| 19:55:37 | Araq | filwit: alright, I agree with you |
| 19:55:59 | Araq | in fact, your way of "omg it gets in the way, I'll do it myself" |
| 19:56:09 | Araq | is the nimrod way :-) |
| 19:56:35 | filwit | ;-) |
| 19:56:49 | Araq | and yeah, write some document about your ideas and post it somewhere |
| 19:57:48 | filwit | yes, I need to do that. Not just to convey what I'm thinking and what my goals are, but also so that you and dom can present alternatives or bring up reasons why some may not work or need to be changed |
| 19:58:36 | filwit | Plus, there can be pictures! |
| 19:58:44 | filwit | lots and lots of pictures! |
| 19:58:56 | dom96 | I sure like pictures! |
| 19:59:06 | filwit | they're the best |
| 20:02:58 | filwit | btw, Araq, what does the server run off of? |
| 20:03:08 | filwit | do you use some sort of CMS? |
| 20:03:18 | filwit | or is it pure HTML? |
| 20:03:37 | Araq | pure static boring HTML |
| 20:03:53 | Araq | I use my own tools to create it though |
| 20:04:03 | Araq | well in fact, the tools are part of the nimrod distribution |
| 20:04:05 | filwit | what part of it? |
| 20:04:21 | filwit | are made with Nimrod that is |
| 20:04:49 | filwit | for instance, do you manually update the "Latest News" ? |
| 20:04:49 | Araq | I like reStructuredText, so that's what nimrod's documentation generator supports |
| 20:04:58 | Araq | yes, I do |
| 20:05:28 | Araq | https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/blob/master/web/ticker.txt |
| 20:05:31 | Araq | is the code for it |
| 20:07:07 | filwit | okay, thanks |
| 20:07:10 | Araq | in fact https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/blob/master/web/news.txt is maintained on the fly |
| 20:07:27 | filwit | I'm mostly just worried about the style code :) |
| 20:07:28 | Araq | and then I convert it to HTML and upload it for a new release :-) |
| 20:07:43 | filwit | but I'll talk to you about that later when I have something to show ;-) |
| 20:08:25 | Araq | apparently the style is not on github |
| 20:08:42 | Araq | I mean the CSS and images |
| 20:09:15 | filwit | that's fine, I just wanted to know if the site was driven by some CMS |
| 20:10:38 | Araq | ok |
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| 23:58:04 | ccssnet | hi |
| 23:58:22 | dom96 | hello ccssnet |
| 23:58:56 | ccssnet | hi. im bored |
| 23:59:37 | Araq | don't try to sell stuff here |
| 23:59:42 | ccssnet | lol |
| 23:59:53 | * | ccssnet wasnt going to |