<< 08-06-2015 >>
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02:27:52Varriountonionhammer: I swear, before the year is out I'm going to end up redoing the settings mechanisms in NimLime more times than is healthy.
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02:53:08cmk_zzzAny plans to implement the full rst specification? Lots of directives are missing
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02:53:58Varriountcmk_zzz: We wouldn't be averse to pull requests :D
02:54:58Varriountcmk_zzz: The main focus right now is the compiler. The standard library is largely supported by non-core developers.
02:56:37Varriountcmk_zzz: You can add an issue if you want - dom96 and I usually try to do some improvement to the stdlib when we can, however I'm tied up with fixing NimLime, and dom96 is busy with Nimble.
02:56:38cmk_zzzVarriount: Understood and that makes sense.
02:57:21cmk_zzzVarriount: I'll play around with it a little bit to see if I can make some changes. It is mostly the image and admonition directives I need at this stage
02:57:51Varriountcmk_zzz: Neat! If you any help understanding anything, I can help.
02:58:23cmk_zzzVarriount: thanks
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03:58:55fiocoWhat should I use for a nim GUI program?
03:59:35fiocoI'm currently using sdl
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05:17:08fioco__Is there a nim interpreter?
05:17:28Xeyes
05:17:34Xebut you probably don't need one
05:17:44fioco__Yes I do
05:17:48fioco__Link?
05:20:36fioco__Xe? And thanks for the info
05:20:49Xenimble install nrpl
05:22:52fioco__That's not an interpreter
05:23:37fioco__It uses the nim compiler in a tmp dir
05:24:14fioco__Cool, but not my need
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10:22:59r-kunimsuggest nimble package updated few days ago. so.. is nimsuggest supposed to be compiled from compiler tree or installed via package now?
10:23:32pigmejr-ku: afair still from compiler
10:24:13r-kuhmm.. i wonder what package is for then. maybe know what they are doing with that package there?
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10:25:25pigmejr-ku: afair it will be separate 'soon'
10:25:41pigmejdom96: what's the status of nimsuggest as nimble package ?
10:25:43r-kuokie good to know, thanks
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12:39:02ddddddIn the backlog, someone said """[...]"getting rid" of methods""". Is a feature of the lang to be removed or am I missing context?
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12:40:42ddddddIf it's something to be removed... is there a link to the rationale?
12:42:32vikatonwhat is """[...]"getting rid" of methods""".
12:43:57r-kuanyone care to review? https://github.com/Araq/Nim/compare/devel...r-ku:I64-magics-gone?expand=1
12:45:14ddddddvikaton, a quote of the log of the channel.
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12:56:04ddddddReading back a little more at http://irclogs.nim-lang.org/07-06-2015.html
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14:45:23reactormonkr-ku, open a PR if you want a review
14:46:08r-kui figured maybe its too big of a mess not worthy PR maybe i can avoid all that shame heh
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14:58:20r-kuwell be nice if i could run tests on my modifications. but so far running "./koch tests" results in "tests/testament/tester.nim(15, 22) Error: cannot open 'compiler/nodejs'". however i do run it from checked out repo root. and it even happens with devel branch (no custom modifications). is it broken or something changed? P.S. that file exists and permissions are fine.
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15:31:27reactormonkr-ku, gotta jump into cold water from time to time
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18:08:59reactormonkHow would you implement math with units, e.g. 20km/s*1h?
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18:16:10dddddddddistinct type aliases
18:17:28ddddddddtype Km = distinct int or float whatever
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18:22:50reactormonkdddddddd, hm. and the conversions?
18:25:18ddddddddits all about what you want imo, proc `*`(x: km_per_sec, y: hour): km = etc
18:25:33ddddddddand you can set converters from hours to seconds etc if you feel like it
18:26:19reactormonkdoesn't really scale though
18:26:48ddddddddyou can make it more general
18:27:21ddddddddmake it time * speed
18:27:27ddddddddinstead of specific
18:27:48ddddddddthen set up converter for km -> miles m -> km
18:27:58ddddddddmacro it if you want to
18:28:40ddddddddtime * speed = distance etc
18:28:55ddddddddat least thats how i would do it to catch everything at compile time
18:29:12ddddddddotherwise just dont make it distinct and hope you dont scew up
18:29:37ddddddddthats how the nasa destroyed some satellite
18:30:42ddddddddhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter#Cause_of_failure
18:32:07reactormonkdddddddd, exactly why ;-)
18:32:37reactormonkbut I'll have to think of something...
18:32:39ddddddddyou could setup your speed as object = distance: x, time: x
18:32:54ddddddddthat way you can keep your distance per time separate
18:33:09ddddddddand not have all the specif convertion between speeds etc
18:34:17ddddddddim pretty sure with something like that and macros it would not be that hard to do, and just scrape some wikipedia for all the type convertion or something
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18:38:18fiocoDoes anyone want to help me build a nim interpreter?
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18:42:21Arrrrfioco i think gokr_ was doing that
18:42:57fiocoI found a c interpreter
18:43:02reactormonkfioco, so you want to run nim code in the nimvm?
18:43:14fiocoArrrr thanks
18:43:29fiocoReactor monk: not exactly
18:43:30reactormonkfioco, I mean nim i gives you something similar, but it's kinda unsupported
18:43:36reactormonkfioco, usecase?
18:43:52reactormonkfioco, oh, and tab should auto-complete my nick in almost any irc client
18:43:53fiocoI want to run nim in another program
18:44:02fiocoI'll handle the input output redirect
18:44:16fiocoBut i at least need a nim to c source
18:44:27fiocoI'm looking at the official compiler now
18:44:47gokr_doing what?
18:45:06fiocoBuilding a nim interpreter
18:45:42reactormonkfioco, if you want the C source, that's easy
18:45:48gokr_No, i am building another lang, but in Nim
18:45:57fiocoOk
18:46:05reactormonk -c, --compileOnly compile only; do not assemble or link
18:46:15gokr_Nim does have a VM though
18:46:20reactormonkgokr_, not interested apparently
18:46:22fiocoReactormonk I found cling which runs stdc++11
18:46:38fiocoI need to embed it in another window
18:46:56reactormonkso just run the nim compiler without invoking the gcc
18:47:15fiocoI could port the VM i guess if it doesn't require compilation
18:47:21fiocoReactormonk can't
18:47:25gokr_reactormonk: ?
18:47:40reactormonkgokr_, read backlog
18:47:46fiocoI need independency
18:47:52fioco*independence
18:47:56reactormonkdescribe your use case a bit more
18:48:09fiocoI'm building something called nimlet
18:48:13*gokr_ on phone
18:48:15fiocoIt's a browser
18:48:29fiocoBut it supports nim code
18:48:47fioco<nim> echo "Hi" </nim>
18:48:53fiocoThat outputs hi
18:49:04fiocoOn screen,with the other html
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18:49:17pigmejreactormonk: ohey
18:49:20pigmejhey*
18:49:32pigmejdo we know something more than yesterday about sug/con ?
18:49:35fiocoBut I'm not going to make a newbie user run a compiler instalation And browser
18:49:39fiocoTo complex
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18:50:18reactormonkpigmej, nope, tried to get nginx running instead
18:50:23reactormonkand now it's time to cook :-)
18:50:28pigmejnginx with nim ?
18:50:49reactormonknah, contract work
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18:51:52fiocoSorry. Client crashed
18:51:55reactormonkfioco, so you basically want a nim editor in the browser with running code?
18:52:03fiocoNo
18:52:24fiocoI'm building a browser that executes server served nim code
18:52:33reactormonkpigmej, I would really just go with checking for parens or comma beforehand.
18:52:35fiocoSo I'll take say x.com
18:52:45reactormonkso like flash?
18:52:50fiocoIt has a <nim> tag
18:52:58fiocoIt executes all code there
18:53:04fiocoReactormonk but better
18:53:22fiocoIt will support a modified stdlib
18:53:27fiocoI'll sandbox it
18:53:32reactormonk<script language="nim" src="url"> ?
18:53:42fiocoTry <nim>
18:53:47fioco(For now)
18:53:56fiocoI plan on adding to that later
18:54:00reactormonkYou could also compiler it to js, there's nim js
18:54:09reactormonk... the compiler compiles to JS natively
18:54:22fiocoDoes nim js support sockets?
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18:54:27reactormonkyou can make it
18:54:29fiocoFile ops?
18:54:38fiocoTo much work :p
18:54:40reactormonkFFI works just like with C.
18:54:47reactormonkYour stuff sounds like a lot of work.
18:54:58fiocoMore work to hack js
18:55:08reactormonkNo need to hack js, it's all nim code
18:55:55fiocoI would need to add libs
18:56:00fiocoHack is the wrong word
18:56:25reactormonknot a problem either
18:56:42fiocoI'm better with nim then js
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18:56:58fiocoAlso That ^^
18:57:57reactormonktry the nim js part first and see how well it works for you.
18:58:09fiocoAnd I'm trying to do something new
18:58:19fiocoAdding a js lib has been some
18:58:22fioco*done
18:58:31fiocoI want to do something big
18:58:38fiocoBut i might
18:58:43fiocoThanks for the tip
19:00:04reactormonkeverything big starts with small steps :-)
19:01:57fiocoYep
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19:30:15fiocoIs there an option to specify the output in the nim compiler?
19:37:22fiocoNvm found it
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20:13:09ddddddddwow swift is being opensourced
20:13:24dtscodeIt is? yay
20:14:41Jehan`dtscode: Yup. :)
20:14:54Jehan`That said, initially they'll only support OS X, iOS, and Linux.
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20:15:30Jehan`Which is not surprising; Apple is in the business of selling hardware.
20:16:28Jehan`So, they're giving you a language that allows you to write code for their hardware and also for any server-side Linux code that you may need.
20:17:09dtscodeIf they open source it I can just port it to any arch I want :D
20:17:11Jehan`I do expect that someone will eventually write a Windows adaptation and get things to compile on *BSD, too.
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20:17:28Jehan`dtscode: Which may be not as trivial as you think, especially once you talk about the libraries.
20:17:43dtscodeof course its not trivial :p
20:21:43dom96The new cool programming language space is getting rather tight...
20:22:02Jehan`dom96: Heh. :)
20:22:43Jehan`The thing is, all of them have their up- and downsides.
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20:23:22Jehan`Also don't forget old languages that just haven't seen much adaptation yet but have matured nicely (e.g. OCaml).
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20:23:51Jehan`I'm honestly baffled by how much OCaml has been ignored for the past couple of decades.
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20:24:33dom96Guess I should give it a try.
20:24:34Jehan`Back in the late 90s/early aughts it was one of the very few options you had if you wanted to write high-level code with good performance.
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20:26:10Jehan`dom96: It doesn't stand out as much anymore; back then, they had some stuff going that other languages just didn't have; these days, most of them have caught up.
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20:27:10Jehan`For example, fast performance AND fast compilation.
20:27:24Jehan`A GC with a really, really good performance profile.
20:27:40Jehan`A time-traveling debugger (this one is still something that's rare).
20:28:17Jehan`It's difficult to describe how much better all this was compared to the alternatives back in, say, 2000.
20:29:14dom96Makes you wonder how people would feel about Rust, Go or Nim if they were at the stage they are now at in the year 2000.
20:29:34Jehan`dom96: I honestly don't know.
20:29:39dom96Maybe OCaml was just ahead of its time.
20:30:31Jehan`dom96: I also think that the internet just wasn't as "connected" back then.
20:30:56Jehan`People were still scattered across several communities.
20:31:11Jehan`And it was more difficult to get mindshare.
20:31:31Jehan`It still took ages for Python and Ruby to become popular.
20:31:46dom96True
20:32:55Jehan`Popularity is also a bit of a random thing. Merit does matter, but often "good enough" plus some random other factor can matter more.
20:33:59Jehan`Ruby took off because of Rails; Python became popular because over time it became sort of the standard scripting language for science and much of academia (because it was easy to learn for non-computer scientists).
20:35:16Jehan`I think smart language design these days is not to try and do it all, but figure out what target audience you want to appeal to and make life good for them.
20:35:36Jehan`There are lots of different audiences and no single language will be the right one for all of them.
20:36:40Jehan`E.g. why I see no problem with Rust, Go, and Nim co-existing peacefully. :) They do have some overlap, but they also have their unique features that sets them apart.
20:39:40Jehan`For example: One feature that Nim has that is really good for me is that source-only distributions are practical.
20:39:43dtscode<Jehan`> I'm honestly baffled by how much OCaml has been ignored for the past couple of decades.
20:39:52dtscodeBecause its a collection of old artifacts like ;;
20:40:21Jehan`I can bundle the compiler with my source code, the compiler will build in half a minute or so, then build my program in even less time.
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20:41:39Jehan`dtscode: Double semicolon is a Caml Light leftover. It's only needed in the REPL these days.
20:41:51Jehan`Well, and has not been needed since the mid-90s or so.
20:42:09dtscodeThe fact that its needed anywhere is my point
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20:43:15Jehan`dtscode: It's used in the REPL to denote the end of input. Not sure what's so problematic about it.
20:43:40dtscodeI never said its problematic. I said my issue with it
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21:12:03Xedoes nim allow unicode identifiers?
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21:24:12ozraXe: indeed it does :)
21:24:41Xehow does that interact with the case-insensitivity?
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21:28:26ozraXe: Al unicodes are verbatim except U+2013 (en-dash) which works magically like _ and hump (for lisp/dash-style identifier style)
21:28:40ozraThat is, you can name a proc `λ`
21:29:10Xeand it is the same as `Λ`?
21:29:15ozraAnd this is ok: `let a–var–name = another–var - yet–a–var`
21:29:45ozraSame as: `let aVarName = anotherVar - yetAVar`
21:30:12ozraXe: No, λ != Λ
21:30:44ozraUnicode points are not capital translated - only the old-school latin programming chars.. (traditional hump)
21:30:57ozra*case translated*
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21:34:56Xeumlated letters would also not count?
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21:46:37ozraXe: Exactly, åÅäÄöÖ etc. are considered different. It's only the 'traditional programming letters' a-zA-Z that are.
21:47:17ozraThis is mainly to let users choose their preferred style while still maintaining compatibility with existing libs, C etc.
21:48:02ozraAnd the first letter is always case sensitive. `var myType: MyType` is ok.
21:49:35dom96Xe: Case insensitivity does not apply to Unicode characters
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21:49:52Xedom96: what is defined as "unicode"?
21:50:20ozraXe all codepoints above 127
21:50:21dom96non-ascii
21:50:27Xeokay
21:53:16ozraAraq: Are you around? Found some more bugs while working on #1179. No bounds checks was done what so ever. Q: Should 0b10000000'i8 (and same for other bases) be allowed? Or should use be adviced to use -0b00000001'i8?
21:53:40ozra(bounds, regarding non base-10)
21:54:00ozra*user be adviced*
21:56:04Xeozra: how does that interact with a certain kind of case-sensitive hell in C code bound to nim?
21:56:14Xewhere foo_bar, FooBar and FOO_BAR are all defined
21:56:25Xe(function, macro, constant)
21:56:42VarriountXe: We have yet to encounter that problem.
21:56:54Jehan`Xe: Case insensitivity exists to facilitate interoperability with foreign and third-party libraries without having to copy their style; but it's difficult to even define case-insensitivity properly for Unicode, so there the downsides outweigh any benefits.
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21:57:29Jehan`Varriount: Actually, this has been a problem on occasion (very rarely, though); the solution is to give them different names in Nim.
21:58:34Jehan`Example: in posix.nim, struct stat vs. the stat() call.
21:59:15Jehan`The actual problem here is, of course, that struct identifiers use a different namespace.
22:01:58Jehan`An actual problem with case insensitivity is FD_SET() (the macro) vs fd_set (the type).
22:03:24notfowlOpengl hit this too
22:04:46Jehan`The thing is, though, making things case-sensitive would not make the problem go away, just lower the likelihood you encounter it.
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22:05:11Jehan`As I noted above, there are already multiple namespaces in C, and things get even more complicated when you interface with C++.
22:08:28Varriountonionhammer: Found a workaround for the settings bug. I think.
22:10:34ozraJehan`: FD_SET and fd_set should not clash. Initial is sensitive.
22:10:57Jehan`ozra: Oops, I forgot. That used to be the case, though.
22:11:08ozraBefore my time I guess ;)
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22:11:34onionhammerVarriount which settings bug?
22:12:03onionhammersorry i havent read up, had no times yesterday/today
22:15:00Varriountonionhammer: Sublime Text 3 is giving an invalid settings object.
22:15:22VarriountProbably because the new settings file is rather large.
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22:19:33ozraRight, Varriount, I've been fixing some syntax bugs in NimLime I encountered while working on #1179, added some more distinctions to, but I'll hold it for now, might fix some more...
22:20:20Varriountozra: Thanks! This settings bug is rather nasty.
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22:20:48VarriountHello mahlon
22:35:39Varriountozra: You programmed in Python at all?
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22:46:56ozraVarriount: never really. I just fix regexp's in the YAML, never fiddled with sublime before this either..
22:47:18ozraVarriount: what's buggin?
22:48:01dtscodeI should start using sublime...
22:48:30Varriountozra: Nothing. I just did some really... weird things in Python today when trying to fix this bug.
22:50:55ozraAnywhere to quickly post a pic to make a link here, anyone got a hint?
22:51:17Varriountozra: imgur.com?
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22:53:30Varriountonionhammer: I pushed a few commits to the repo. Can you test out doc-comment continuation?
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22:55:25ozraVarriount: needed login, terrorized your repo instead ;) - https://github.com/Varriount/NimLime/issues/31
22:56:52Varriountozra: Thank you for that lovely picture. I now cherish Window's font enhancements even more not.
22:56:54Varriount*now
22:57:22ozraVarriount: one possible way of twisted coloring (I've opted for redalert on assigns, obvious shout out on branch beginnings, etc. don't opt for beauty when editing ;-)
22:57:46ozraVarriount: Windows? Eh, not following X)
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23:00:12ozraVarriount: (think I got what you meant now.. hehe. I've worked hard to actually remove antialias, if that's what you mean ;-)
23:00:15Varriountozra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ClearType
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23:02:08ozraVarriount: You can set antialias mode (subpixel [=cleartype = default], full, off, etc.), hinting etc. per font, per size, per anything you want for specific applications or all in linux, haven't found anything come close to that in windows...
23:02:43ozraI've turned it off for everything below 11px.
23:03:02ozraMuch more readable to me :)
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23:07:20Varriountozra: I notice that multi-line if statements aren't coloured correctly.
23:07:50ozraVarriount: Ok. I'll make a todo..
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23:13:26ozraVarriount: Oh, right, maybe you're full time win user? Otherwise this is definitely for you: http://www.webupd8.org/2013/06/better-font-rendering-in-linux-with.html
23:13:37ozra(Infinality)
23:14:13Varriountozra: I'm a full time Windows user. Someone has to write code to support it.
23:14:35VarriountThough, I'll keep the link, in case I need to work with any Linux systems long-term.
23:15:21ozraVarriount: Right, I think we might have discussed before. I don't mind anyone using any OS, as long as I can keep my precious linux setup :)
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23:47:05onionhammer@Varriount still not working
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23:47:59Varriount-_-
23:49:21Varriountonionhammer: You sure you downloaded the latest commit? And that the doccomment file with the print lines was overwritten?
23:49:31onionhammeryep
23:49:42Varriountonionhammer: It works on my ST3. :/
23:49:48onionhammer:\
23:50:06Varriountonionhammer: Note that the line has to have text on it...
23:50:51onionhammer "nim.executable": "C:\\64\\Nimrod\\bin\\nim.exe",?
23:51:04VarriountThat... should probably be changed.
23:53:02onionhammershould just be "nim" probably
23:53:54onionhammerI tried it both in a proc and alone
23:54:34onionhammerit worked better before when i tested it last time
23:54:43onionhammerlast time u had me test on saturday i think
23:54:49Varriountonionhammer: Here, replace the code with this and tell me what the debug output is - https://gist.github.com/Varriount/4b5d6479216b6ab59622
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