<< 09-05-2023 >>
00:01:23FromDiscord<sOkam!> tru
00:01:51FromDiscord<arne> @sOkam! all nimble related issues are solved by not using nimble anymore and instead put all dependencies in submodules and manually add them to the path
00:03:09FromDiscord<sOkam!> that sounds like hell
00:03:21FromDiscord<sOkam!> submodules are a gigantic PITA
00:04:27FromDiscord<sOkam!> I will never understand the nimble hate. Conversation should be about improving it, not bitching about it đŸ€·â€â™‚ïž
00:14:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> @arne\: seems easier to just use atlas at that rate
00:15:42FromDiscord<auxym> git submodules are sort of workable once you wrap your head around it... but dear god, the reason I'm not using C is because I don't want to go back to that sort of dependency management. nimble isn't perfect but let's improve it. (or maybe atlas, should have a look at it sometime)
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00:29:18FromDiscord<auxym> on another note... is this the perfect name for an endians lib or what? https://github.com/auxym/bight
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02:28:34FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @auxym "on another note... is": nice!
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02:50:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> @auxym\: cmon `bigib` would've been better
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02:53:20FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> As a sorta aside, all 3 BE cpus alive are angry that you do not compile time abstract this
02:57:46NimEventerNew post on r/nim by AbbreviationsJust336: Any Documentation on Winim?, see https://reddit.com/r/nim/comments/13cddjt/any_documentation_on_winim/
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06:42:45FromDiscord<arne> In reply to @sOkam! "I will never understand": It took me a long time to get where I am. But I was all for improving nimble ... 4 years ago
06:59:10FromDiscord<Girvo> Anyone know of any implementations of a readers-writer lock that I can take a look at? Also known as single-writer or push locks
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07:10:34FromDiscord<Girvo> In reply to @Elegantbeef "As a sorta aside,": Man I _wish_ there was only 3 BE CPUs. sobs in Modbus forcing me to deal with endianness in all kinds of bullshit ways
07:12:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Right there's 4 sorry
07:14:15FromDiscord<Girvo> To answer my own question: https://github.com/tdely/nim-rwlocks that is all I've found.
07:15:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It seems like a relatively simple algo
07:18:16FromDiscord<Girvo> Yeah it is. I guess the broader question I have, is would it be possible to get `guard:` like semantics around a different mutex implementation? Such that I could write my own `withLock` proc that also included a timeout?
07:19:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Remember that you just need a `{.lock[lockHere].}: ...`
07:20:16FromDiscord<Girvo> In the context of the `withLock` block?
07:20:24FromDiscord<Girvo> Ah I think I'm remembering now yeah
07:20:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/version-1-6/lib/core/locks.nim#L81
07:21:13FromDiscord<Girvo> Okay yeah sweet. Should be feasible to write my own but around FreeRTOS's Semaphore/Mutexes then
07:21:39FromDiscord<arnetheduck> In reply to @arne "<@186489007247589376> all nimble related": https://github.com/status-im/nimbus-build-system
07:22:40FromDiscord<Girvo> `withLock(someLock, 1000.Ticks):` will be quite nice in allowing me to work around some possible dead-locks. Gotta work out the right way of handling the "it timed out" block too, but I'll deal with that when I get to it
07:24:36FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yea it's a surprisingly reusable system
07:26:12FromDiscord<Girvo> Pretty straightforward interface too. And yeah neat, nim-rwlocks does something similar. Has it's own `withReadLock(l: RwLock)` template
07:28:55FromDiscord<Girvo> Oh I could easily do my own RW Lock via `xSemaphoreCreateCounting` too for the reader lock, I think.
07:49:33FromDiscord<4zv4l> is it possible to redirect stderr to a file ?↔like if the program panic, to write the message somewhere else than on the terminal ?
07:59:07FromDiscord<Girvo> `./example 2>example-err`?
08:18:21PMunchHmm, valgrind is complaining about atomics in threads
08:19:29FromDiscord<4zv4l> In reply to @Girvo "`./example 2>example-err`?": it's on Windows↔I simply added a boolean 'hide' in the config so we can check the terminal window for debugging even if that's not the best
08:19:48FromDiscord<Girvo> I've not done STDERR stuff on Windows in yonks
08:20:17FromDiscord<Girvo> Oh. Lol. @4zv4l its the same command in Windows too
08:20:21FromDiscord<Girvo> https://www.rushis.com/windows-command-prompt-redirecting-stdoutstderr/
08:21:31FromDiscord<Girvo> Sending it to stdout/stderr and using the built in shells redirection is the way to go, IMO, coz it means it plays nicely with other tools "for free" 🙂
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08:26:04FromDiscord<4zv4l> well the program is ran using Image File Execution Options and I am not sure the registry key accepts redirection xD↔but for debugging yeah could just run it in the command line and redirect stderr↔thanks for the info !
08:31:43NimEventerNew thread by Araq: Unique refs > `isolate`, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10185
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08:57:44om3gaHi! I was not into this relatively new methods for http backend services. What is really async in this web server: std/asynchttpserver? I understand that browser can send simultaneously multiple requests, but in case if it not utilizes http pipelining, how async being achieved in that case?
08:58:57om3gaor how requests being served in parallel, since there is one connection to the reverse proxy
09:02:47om3gaI read explanations on stack overflow, but still not very clear: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QCmEE.jpg
09:04:10om3gafor example my backends do the same and return to the client results by portions, while during processing the data my modules really do that in parallel
09:04:52NimEventerNew thread by hunterbr: Is there a way to see the NIM version in an NIM executable (binary) ? , see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10186
09:06:07FromDiscord<4zv4l> am I the only one getting this with `nimlsp` on neovim ? https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1105420421349773342/nimlsp.txt
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09:21:49om3gaplease ignore my question
09:22:05om3ga:) I found better explanation
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10:43:50FromDiscord<Ras> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vvW
10:44:21FromDiscord<Ras> i'm probably missing something fairly obvious
10:44:57FromDiscord<Rika> Nim or Nim script?
10:45:24FromDiscord<Ras> nim, but i'm using it in a compile time context too if that's what you're asking
10:48:30FromDiscord<Ras> should i just not do that?
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10:49:56FromDiscord<Ras> indeed, moving it to runtime fixed the cast
10:51:32FromDiscord<Rika> Compile time context can’t do much of cast iirc
10:51:35FromDiscord<Rika> Only limited cases
10:51:36FromDiscord<Sim> Welp, I fixed it by reinstalling the driver đŸ€·â€â™‚ïž It was working fine everywhere else though, so I guess it's some Windows shenanigans...
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11:49:49FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @Girvo "To answer my own": The Art of multiprocessor Programming, by Herlihy and Shavit, chapter 8.3
11:50:58FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @Elegantbeef "It seems like a": It gets complex easily if you want to avoid starvation (i.e. locking a writer out of writing if there are too many readers)
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13:27:15FromDiscord<&Makarov/0> hello friends , m really struggling to choose between nim and Rust !
13:27:30FromDiscord<&Makarov/0> m interessted in knowing the limitation of nim đŸ„č
13:27:35FromDiscord<&Makarov/0> and where nim can beat rust
13:28:05FromDiscord<&Makarov/0> cause i actually hate rust syntax , i just find it exhaustive , i tryed nim for a bit i found it good enough and fun to use
13:28:28FromDiscord<&Makarov/0> specially when i start implementing the pipe operator using the template constructs 😁
13:28:35FromDiscord<&Makarov/0> but i still dont know how to choose
13:28:36FromDiscord<voidwalker> well then you just answered your dillema
13:28:47FromDiscord<&Makarov/0> In reply to @voidwalker "well then you just": it IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS A DILLEMA 😂
13:29:01FromDiscord<&Makarov/0> but still not convinced
13:29:01FromDiscord<voidwalker> For me it was simple, I decided I'm too stupid for rust
13:29:21FromDiscord<voidwalker> not coming from a solid programming background
13:29:51FromDiscord<&Makarov/0> hahaha
13:30:12FromDiscord<voidwalker> I decided that I will give rust a go though, when I upgrade my iq with a few points, after learning nim well
13:30:13FromDiscord<&Makarov/0> i understand , for m coming from a elixir ! đŸ„č
13:31:46FromDiscord<voidwalker> Limitations of nim, libraries, while we have a lot, are still lacking. for example, there's no ipfs client lib, no torrent library or wrapper, no dht
13:32:07FromDiscord<voidwalker> gui libs are much more immature vs what you have in rust
13:33:49FromDiscord<Rika> Most libraries are immature compared to Rust
13:33:50FromDiscord<voidwalker> but the language is super easy to learn, so you won't be wasting much time learning it, and see how you like it
13:34:36FromDiscord<voidwalker> Depends what you want to use it for. Some people love it for malware development : D
13:34:46FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @&Makarov/0 "i understand , for": Do you use it often? You might miss a lot of elixir features
13:40:16FromDiscord<choltreppe> does macro expansion not work inside a concept def?
13:50:13FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @voidwalker "Limitations of nim, libraries,": while there's no ipfs client per se, you might be interested in nim-libp2p, or parts of it
13:50:29FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> https://github.com/status-im/nim-libp2p
13:51:19FromDiscord<voidwalker> yeah, i know of it.. the parts that interested me are tied to chronos and some ethereum specific libs unfortunately
13:51:37FromDiscord<voidwalker> dht and uTP respectively
13:54:53FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @voidwalker "Limitations of nim, libraries,": if you can find that lib: https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs/issues/300
13:55:40FromDiscord<mratsim> also gogolxdong had an IPFS video demo somewhere
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14:01:08FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @voidwalker "yeah, i know of": But they have been audited, and are battle tested with billions in prod.
14:01:29FromDiscord<mratsim> and the DHT and UTP is used in libp2p which is not Ethereum specific
14:01:53FromDiscord<mratsim> UTP is separate from libp2p actually: https://github.com/status-im/nim-eth/blob/master/eth/utp/utp_protocol.nim
14:02:42NerveQuestion: I'm linking brotli statically. On Linux, I can generate a single .a, but right now on Windows I have three: libbrotlicommon, libbrotlienc, and libbrotlidec. The functions I've written signatures for are in enc and dec, but depend on some stuff in common. Nim/GCC are complaining that they can't find the functions in common even though I've included all three static lib files with --passL.
14:02:43NerveAny ideas?
14:04:12Nervebasically, how do I ensure that functions from a lib file that I'm not directly writing FFI signatures from get properly linked and are available to other library files?
14:06:03FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @Nerve "basically, how do I": static library should appear last in the gcc calls so it might be easier to write a nim.cfg or a nimble script like here: https://github.com/mratsim/constantine/blob/master/constantine.nimble#L214-L215
14:06:09FromDiscord<mratsim> (edit) "library" => "libraries"
14:10:12NerveWait, does nim do --passL in order? Do I need to put common first (or last)?
14:10:47NerveHoly crap putting it last may have worked
14:11:33NerveOkay it appears it worked
14:15:27FromDiscord<mratsim> =}
14:19:18NerveSo note for future: If anyone is linking against libbrotli statically on Windows, just:
14:19:31Nerve1) Use cmake-gui with default flags, then run make
14:20:01Nerve2) Link against the -static.a library files in order with --passL flags: enc, dec, common.
14:20:22NerveThis all assuming MinGW, of course.
14:22:00NerveThe cmake part is for building libbrotli, I should clarify.
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14:28:46FromDiscord<Nerve> Back on Linux, whew. Windows is the dark realm.
14:31:12FromDiscord<Rika> welcome back
14:56:05FromDiscord<SirOlaf> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vws
14:57:23FromDiscord<SirOlaf> Trips me up every time I use generics
15:02:35FromDiscord<Rika> because it's not from RHS to LHS
15:02:59FromDiscord<Rika> stuff like that is generally called "reverse inference" iirc
15:05:31FromDiscord<SirOlaf> Seems like it would be trivial to support though, so I thought that it's not wanted for some reason
15:06:13FromDiscord<Rika> well, is it trivial to support?
15:06:26FromDiscord<SirOlaf> No idea, seems like it would be
15:07:48FromDiscord<SirOlaf> But no point looking into it if araq or someone already clarified why it's not a thing
15:09:16FromDiscord<Rika> i have no idea if its trivial and i would say it doesnt seem trivial at all to support but eh
15:13:59FromDiscord<SirOlaf> I say it's trivial because when generic argument list is missing you could check if lhs is specified and use that instead, but there's lots of deceptively simple things in the compiler so I could be very wrong
15:14:28FromDiscord<SirOlaf> https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/3025#19018 only thing on it I could find is this, but making an exception for generics makes sense in my mind
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16:24:15FromDiscord<jtv> Uh, "reverse inference"? That's a new one. Traditional hindley-milner unification-based type inferencing will update type info about the variable as it goes along, and that info can cascade. So it's easy to infer no matter which way you parse the expression, but it's clear that Nim's doing something else there
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16:37:11FromDiscord<Rika> reverse inference has been mentioned in this very server before
16:37:43FromDiscord<Rika> nim does not use HM type system because of something related to overloading, at least from what i recall araq saying
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17:12:57FromDiscord<jtv> Hindley Milner is super old (early 70's), there's been plenty of work based on it with unification-based systems. It's really about the type rules you apply around it, tbh.
17:14:44FromDiscord<jmgomez> In reply to @jtv "Hindley Milner is super": Not so long ago that was discussed in the forums, the summary is that you either have good overloading or HM like inference cause both together are NP-complete
17:16:32FromDiscord<jtv> If you want full inclusion polymorphism, you can't do full HM, but you can absolutely apply it in many situations where you aren't going to have dynamic binding
17:16:54FromDiscord<jtv> It's not a binary thing, there is lots of space in between
17:17:16FromDiscord<jmgomez> @pietroppeter linked this paper http://web.cs.ucla.edu/~palsberg/paper/dedicated-to-kozen12.pdf if you want to do more
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17:18:35FromDiscord<jtv> I know the literature and have implemented more than a few type systems in my career
17:18:39FromDiscord<jmgomez> Yeah I guess to some extend you are right but at the core of it there is that. But if you feel like it, you can always do a pr and improve it
17:18:49FromDiscord<jtv> I even wrote a paper with Jens
17:19:07FromDiscord<jtv> (The author of that paper)
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17:25:21FromDiscord<jtv> In general, when we talk about NP Hard problems, that’s worst case, but there are not a lot of hard instances. This is why public key cryptography doesn’t use NP hard problems at the moment
17:26:02FromDiscord<jtv> It doesn’t preclude approximations or constraints that are very practical.
17:27:07FromDiscord<jtv> Take 3SAT as an example, there are some pretty good solvers and they work really well for small even medium problems
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18:23:34FromDiscord<pietroppeter> In reply to @jmgomez "<@588390287810887693> linked this paper": This is the thread for context: https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10072#66447
18:24:20FromDiscord<pietroppeter> Note that I know next to nothing about type theory, just used Google to find that out and seemed relevant
18:57:35FromDiscord<jtv> sent a long message, see http://ix.io/4vxp
18:59:19FromDiscord<jtv> There’s also the option to make it a dynamic type check instead, tho I have never loved that option
19:42:52FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Oh hey it's the forum post where I needlessly rambled for quite some time
19:52:27FromDiscord<deech> One unexpectedly useful feature of Haskell's overloading (via typeclasses) is return type polymorphism which means that when dispatching looks at the function name, argument types and also the return type, eg. `proc p(s:string):int` is distinct from `proc p(s:string):bool`.
19:52:44FromDiscord<deech> (edit) "One unexpectedly useful feature of Haskell's overloading (via typeclasses) is return type polymorphism which means that when dispatching ... looks" added "it"
19:53:46FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah, I agree, have also found it useful
19:54:17FromDiscord<sazk07> that's interesting
19:54:29FromDiscord<jtv> Beef, if that's the only post you've ever rambled in, I'd be shocked 😄
19:54:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's not
19:54:49FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> But it's the one I've rambled in the most
19:55:06FromDiscord<jtv> If that's you rambling the most, you're doing quite well
19:57:41FromDiscord<deech> For further reading on co/contravariance and type inference I highly recommend Stephan Dolan's thesis (https://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/cs257/archive/stephen-dolan/thesis.pdf). I'm not a type theorist but found sections of it readable. I'm also not aware of any industry language that has implemented it.
19:58:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I can barely read what I write and you're sending a thesis
19:59:19FromDiscord<deech> As an aside Stephan Dolan is an absolutely outstanding writer, the stuff I understood was due to him not my knowledge.
20:00:30FromDiscord<jtv> Overloading and objects are the two places where you generally need to start requiring types. I think for objects, people should use them sparingly anyway, and if they want to use them, then go ahead and declare all your types... even if you do you'll tend to have way too much unneeded run time checking
20:03:42NimEventerNew thread by arnetheduck: Intops - core primtives for working with integers efficiently, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10187
20:09:50FromDiscord<Nerve> In reply to @jtv "Overloading and objects are": Objects as in Nim objects, like records/structs? Or objects in the class+instanced sense?
20:15:01FromDiscord<jtv> objects in the OO sense, meaning dynamic dispatch, and usually overloading
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20:23:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> @jtv\: do you mean people should generally try to use concepts/generics only and use objects when it's a specialisation?
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20:32:25FromDiscord<ieltan> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/Kbz
20:32:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `WaitableEvent[T]`.... `Future[T]`
20:32:51FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Concepts are not runtime values they're constraints
20:33:35FromDiscord<ieltan> Well, alright but then this doesnt work:↔`var dispatchListener = initTable[string, WaitableEvent[T]]`
20:33:49FromDiscord<ieltan> I have to replace T by the event in question
20:33:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes
20:34:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Concepts are not runtime values
20:34:08FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You either want an object variant or to use inheritance
20:34:08FromDiscord<ieltan> .. and create a table for each event
20:34:09FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah, more or less.
20:35:59FromDiscord<ieltan> my goal is to have a table that can hold multiple value type (events whose values are known), what can i do to acheive that without making a dozen tables ?
20:36:21FromDiscord<ieltan> (edit) "values" => "types"
20:36:52FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Object variants, inheritance, ...
20:37:11FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://internet-of-tomohiro.netlify.app/nim/faq.en.html#type-how-to-store-different-types-in-seqqmark
20:38:24FromDiscord<ieltan> I tried object variant but not being able to set the same argument name for each type lead me to a deadend
20:38:32FromDiscord<ieltan> I'll try inheritance, thanks !
20:38:40FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Or try fungus
20:38:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Fungus allows shared name fields due to using tuples
20:38:51FromDiscord<ieltan> what's that ?
20:39:11FromDiscord<ieltan> Can I get a link please ?
20:39:18FromDiscord<ieltan> oh wait nvlm
20:39:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I literally just gave you a link that had a link
20:39:27FromDiscord<ieltan> its in the link you sent me
20:39:27FromDiscord<ieltan> yeah
20:39:30FromDiscord<ieltan> thanks 🙂
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21:20:47FromDiscord<Arathanis> why do I sometimes see a `:` prefix in a template/generic instantiation?
21:21:21FromDiscord<Arathanis> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vxR
21:21:22FromDiscord<Arathanis> w/o the ":" it will not compile.
21:22:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Cause you left out that it's a method call
21:23:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `a.b[: T]()` requires `:` to disambiguate whether it's a method call or `[]`
21:24:14FromDiscord<Arathanis> wouldn't that be defined as `method authenticate` rather than `proc authenticate` though?
21:24:32FromDiscord<Arathanis> oh wait, i follow you now
21:24:55FromDiscord<Arathanis> this section of the manual: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1105606349116678215/image.png
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21:58:11FromDiscord<BoomBang> For some reason
21:58:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> @
21:58:23FromDiscord<BoomBang> oh wrong time
21:58:27myrix@e
21:58:33FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's never the wrong time
21:58:39FromDiscord<BoomBang> Ok
21:58:42FromDiscord<BoomBang> so
21:58:48FromDiscord<BoomBang> every time I run my code
21:58:59FromDiscord<BoomBang> I get this error, for example:
22:00:23FromDiscord<BoomBang> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vy0
22:00:33FromDiscord<BoomBang> (edit)
22:00:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Did you import the `[]` operator for your type?
22:01:11FromDiscord<BoomBang> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Did you import the": How do you do that?
22:01:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> put an export marker on your `[]` procv
22:01:50FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> proc\
22:02:35FromDiscord<BoomBang> In reply to @Elegantbeef "put an export marker": oh yeah
22:02:50FromDiscord<BoomBang> `last_asts` is a seq
22:03:07FromDiscord<BoomBang> that's what made me confused for the most part
22:03:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> is `body` a seq?
22:03:28FromDiscord<BoomBang> In reply to @Elegantbeef "is `body` a seq?": yeah
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22:04:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well you're missing a `[]` somewhere
22:04:20FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Or calling `[]` on something that doesnt accept it
22:05:21FromDiscord<BoomBang> Oh yeah
22:05:36FromDiscord<BoomBang> it just doesn
22:05:44FromDiscord<BoomBang> (edit) "doesn" => "doesn't let me do `delete()`"
22:06:26FromDiscord<BoomBang> in some specific yet (imho seemingly) arbitrary cases
22:07:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well without full code it's hard to say
22:07:35FromDiscord<BoomBang> I have the full code in a github i think
22:09:06FromDiscord<BoomBang> https://github.com/BoomBangYeeted/Artii
22:10:36FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Compiles fine here so you didnt push your changes
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22:27:35FromDiscord<BoomBang> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Compiles fine here so": phew...
22:27:44FromDiscord<BoomBang> at least i didn't commit the code
22:34:02FromDiscord<jtv> That's what branches are for
22:34:15FromDiscord<jtv> Work in a branch, push the branch, someone can look at it
22:34:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Indeed
22:34:41FromDiscord<jtv> `git checkout -b buggy`
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22:47:02FromDiscord<BoomBang> In reply to @jtv "That's what branches are": yup
22:47:07FromDiscord<BoomBang> i just forgot to commit
22:47:19FromDiscord<BoomBang> but my new code didn't work so at least it still will
22:56:20NimEventerNew Nimble package! gamepad - Cross-platform gamepad driver, see https://github.com/konsumer/nim-gamepad
23:31:14FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> Anyone have a pathfinding algo implementation in nim that I can modify for my own use?
23:34:29FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> oh https://github.com/Nycto/AStarNim
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