| 00:01:09 | Varriount | flaviu: Also, I can't find where to set that information in the configuration file. |
| 00:01:26 | flaviu | Varriount: Edit buildbot/info/* |
| 00:01:32 | gokr | slave_dir/info/host & admin |
| 00:01:34 | flaviu | There are two files in that dir |
| 00:01:39 | flaviu | yep |
| 00:01:54 | Araq | er, can anybody reproduce https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/issues/1560 ? |
| 00:02:01 | Araq | works for me (tm) |
| 00:02:20 | Araq | but hrm bug report is for 0.9.4 |
| 00:04:23 | Araq | and I remember there was a related bugfix |
| 00:05:06 | Varriount | flaviu: Ok, done. |
| 00:05:30 | Varriount | flaviu: I'll probably have to restart the slaves. I'll do that as soon as they're done testing. |
| 00:05:41 | flaviu | Sure, sounds good! |
| 00:05:48 | Varriount | flaviu: I wonder how long the tester will take on the armv5 device... |
| 00:06:31 | flaviu | Well, csource bootstrap finishes in 20min.. |
| 00:07:31 | flaviu | Varriount: Have you set it up to chmod +x nim? |
| 00:08:36 | Varriount | flaviu: I've set it to copy whatever python's stat shows from one executable to the other |
| 00:08:58 | Varriount | flaviu: https://github.com/nim-lang/nim-buildbot/blob/master/normalize_nim.py |
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| 00:09:32 | Varriount | flaviu: Although, the armv5 slave may not have gotten that update before it restarted. |
| 00:10:31 | Varriount | flaviu: There's a hidden step that runs at the beginning of the main build operation which updates a script directory. It only shows if something goes wrong. |
| 00:10:58 | dom96 | why ChanServ, why? |
| 00:11:22 | Varriount | :< |
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| 00:12:24 | Varriount | Araq: Any particular reason the csources binary has to be built with -O3 ? |
| 00:13:01 | flaviu | I restarted it, lets see what happens |
| 00:13:55 | gokr | Varriount: IIRC koch will consider the boot a success if old nim compiler == new. As in "files are equal". |
| 00:14:33 | Araq | Varriount: there is no reason. |
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| 00:17:02 | gokr | Araq: But ... if you don't then I presume the koch boot will need one more "loop" to get to binary equal files, right? |
| 00:19:54 | Varriount | gokr: That's right. |
| 00:20:11 | Varriount | gokr: Booting from csources usually takes 3 loops |
| 00:20:39 | NimBot | nim-lang/nimforum new_async 707393a Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Added hr style. |
| 00:20:39 | NimBot | nim-lang/nimforum new_async 5d90a9e Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Add spacing between page num links. |
| 00:21:56 | gokr | Varriount: Right, so its very unlikely in any case that it matches with the one from csources. |
| 00:23:02 | gokr | So the question is - is it slower to compile csources with -O3, and let that compile next iteration (kinda fast) OR compile csources with a lesser -O and then compile next iteration kinda slow? :) |
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| 00:24:53 | gokr | Varriount: Ok, time to crash. I will fix autostart via systemd tomorrow, and... for 32 bits, I need to put the slave into a vagrant box I think. |
| 00:25:12 | gokr | Docker doesn't seem to do 32 bits. |
| 00:26:29 | gokr | gnite |
| 00:27:45 | Araq | dom96: http://build.nim-code.org/irclogs/ doesn't work |
| 00:29:02 | dom96 | nim-code.org? |
| 00:29:14 | dom96 | why should it? |
| 00:29:15 | Araq | er, i mean http://build.nim-lang.org/irclogs/ |
| 00:29:37 | dom96 | yeah yeah, I need to move us to Digital Ocean anyway |
| 00:34:09 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel b6e006f Araq [+1 ±4 -0]: fixes #1646 |
| 00:34:09 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel 9df3d9c Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: Merge branch 'devel' of https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod into devel |
| 00:36:33 | Araq | good night |
| 00:42:14 | flaviu | Can we use -Og for bootstrapping with gcc? |
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| 05:01:22 | Varriount | Araq: There's a bit of a problem.... |
| 05:01:29 | Varriount | with the tester. |
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| 05:06:43 | Varriount | Araq: On Windows, when a program crashes, the Windows Error Reporting dialogue shows up. This blocks the tester program from exiting. |
| 05:08:55 | Varriount | Araq: Now, there are two ways to stop the error dialogue from coming up. Either I can disable them globally by editing a registry key |
| 05:09:25 | Varriount | Araq: Or the program itself can disable them from appearing via an API call. |
| 05:11:55 | Varriount | Araq: Now, personally, I would prefer not to disable the error dialogue globally (through the registry) |
| 05:13:12 | Varriount | It means I can't tell when background processes start acting up. Plus, it means that if someone else wants to run a tester on windows, they have to do the registry edit. |
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| 05:15:57 | Varriount | Araq: Is it possible for the compiler to add the api call that disables error reporting to the start of nim main? |
| 05:16:34 | Varriount | Araq: Then it could just be a matter of the tester setting some compiler switch to disable the error dialogue. |
| 05:19:28 | Varriount | Araq: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/396369/how-do-i-disable-the-debug-close-application-dialog-on-windows-vista |
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| 06:44:28 | Varriount | Araq: Also, is there some wierd way in which 'koch test' produces output? The build slave on windows keeps killing the test process because it's not recieving proper output. |
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| 07:37:22 | gokr | Morning fellas! |
| 07:38:45 | gokr | Varriount: I have a bunch of computers here at home that aren't doing... anything useful... :) |
| 07:39:05 | gokr | Thinking of smacking a 32 bit Ubuntu 14.04 on one of them, and using that as the 32 bit slave. |
| 07:41:57 | * | uku quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 07:44:48 | gokr | Brian Rice, cocreator of Slate (slatelanguage.org), retweeted one of my Nim tweets. He has 800 followers, so... good :) |
| 07:51:17 | Varriount | gokr: Neat! |
| 07:51:29 | Varriount | gokr: I'm going to bed right now. :p |
| 07:51:39 | gokr | I see the 64 bit build came through :) |
| 07:51:54 | gokr | Where do you live? I perhaps asked before |
| 07:52:08 | Varriount | East US |
| 07:52:15 | gokr | Where there? |
| 07:52:25 | gokr | My coworker Ron lives outside Baltimore. |
| 07:52:26 | Varriount | Virginia, near Washington DC |
| 07:52:41 | gokr | ok cool. |
| 07:52:42 | Varriount | Baltimore is about an hour away from where I live. |
| 07:52:55 | gokr | Ah, I might visit him in ... easter. |
| 07:53:05 | gokr | That's an idea at least. |
| 07:53:07 | Varriount | Maybe we could have a get together. |
| 07:53:12 | gokr | Yeah! |
| 07:53:22 | gokr | I live outside Stockholm, Sweden. |
| 07:53:33 | gokr | So its 9 in the morning here :) |
| 07:53:44 | Varriount | 2 in the morning/night here. |
| 07:53:50 | gokr | Yeah, I know :) |
| 07:54:03 | gokr | Good work there on the bot |
| 07:54:16 | gokr | For our own purposes I am actually playing with Gitlab |
| 07:54:28 | Varriount | I'll investigate the output troubles with the tester tomorrow. I'm going to bet it's got something to do with output redirections |
| 07:54:28 | gokr | It has a CI thingy included. |
| 07:54:46 | gokr | Cool, I will see if I can set up one of my old laptops here as a 32 bit builder. |
| 07:54:49 | Varriount | gokr: CI is only really useful for us if it works on a wide range of platforms. |
| 07:55:33 | gokr | Yeah, but Gitlab CI has a similar approach that ... Buildbot. I think? |
| 07:55:49 | Varriount | Yeah. |
| 07:55:52 | gokr | Drone on the other hand, I agree, seemed limited on platforms given its docker focus. |
| 07:56:16 | Varriount | "GitLab CI is on-premises software that you can install and use on your server(s)." |
| 07:56:27 | Varriount | Hm, sounds interesting. |
| 07:56:33 | gokr | Its actually bundled with Gitlab now. |
| 07:56:41 | gokr | And Gitlab seems awfully neat actually. |
| 07:56:46 | gokr | Basically a github clone. |
| 07:56:56 | gokr | I am toying with it on that same server - it was trivial to install. |
| 07:58:16 | gokr | We use a fairly old Redmine + manual git repos today. That works, but Gitlab would cover it all - and better. |
| 07:58:16 | Varriount | Anyway, goodnight gokr, see you later. |
| 07:58:20 | gokr | yeah, gnite! |
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| 09:42:44 | gokr | Did the "effects" pragma go away? |
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| 10:06:38 | gokr | Damn, this exception model seems quite neat. |
| 10:07:29 | gokr | I presume methods trips the tracking though. |
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| 10:41:17 | gokr | Ok, so now a little Pentium-M laptop here at home is the 32 bit buildslave :) |
| 10:41:30 | gokr | Not useful for much else anyway. |
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| 12:09:40 | Araq_ | Jehan_: your PR actually breaks every threading program on windows with thread local storage emulation ... but I'm working on it |
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| 12:22:23 | gokr | The 32 bit laptop seems to work fine. But the tests do take some time :) |
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| 12:31:31 | gokr | Araq_: Am I correct in viewing the Exception model as basically being "just" like in Java, but instead of making "checked" being an attribute of the Exception itself (and thus strictly under control of the author of the raise) in Nim its an attribute of the caller (using the raises: pragma - or not using it)? |
| 12:32:29 | Araq_ | gokr: it's Java's done right. which means "do not get in my way" defaults and a smarter compiler behind it. |
| 12:32:53 | gokr | Yes. |
| 12:33:29 | gokr | I did some fiddling (later article) and... I do get the "raises Exception" thingy when calling for example parseJson(string). |
| 12:33:42 | gokr | It seems to originate from outOfMem handling or something. |
| 12:34:09 | gokr | So I need to handle both JsonParsingError and Exception. |
| 12:35:40 | gokr | I read a bit about the logic around the tracking, and I suspect these "Exception" pops up when the compiler notes "something can be raised here, just not sure what", right? |
| 12:39:12 | Araq_ | right. Well I need to add some warning so it's easier to see where these come from. |
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| 12:48:32 | gokr | I also noted that... if I make a module with a foo proc - and it claims "raises: []" - then I can compile that fine, as long as I don't try to call it. But if I add a call to it - then of course it notices that hey, this foo proc can raise an unlisted exception. |
| 12:50:23 | Araq_ | nah, I think you notice that because your proc is generic |
| 12:50:40 | Araq_ | and so the raises list is checked at instantiation time |
| 12:50:41 | gokr | hmmm, it uses return auto. |
| 12:50:51 | gokr | aha. |
| 12:51:17 | gokr | Ah! |
| 12:51:30 | gokr | You are ever so correct. |
| 12:51:41 | gokr | Ok, that's better :) |
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| 13:05:32 | gokr | Ah, 32 bit build came through :) |
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| 13:06:15 | gokr | 2h 20 min. cough. |
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| 13:07:38 | Araq_ | we can optimize the test suite |
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| 13:08:03 | gokr | Not that bad for a 512Mb Pentium-M though :) |
| 13:08:13 | Araq_ | and also have "low priority" tests |
| 13:08:30 | Araq_ | that only need to be run before a release |
| 13:08:42 | Araq_ | to ensure no regression happened |
| 13:08:48 | kokozedman | hey guys, is there an existing Google Protobuf project for Nim? |
| 13:10:41 | gokr | Not that my quick googling shows. |
| 13:10:49 | Araq_ | kokozedman: dunno. checked Nimble/Babel? |
| 13:11:40 | gokr | My babel says no. |
| 13:12:16 | gokr | back later |
| 13:13:36 | kokozedman | I've been looking for a while, but didn't come across anything... so I asked |
| 13:13:47 | kokozedman | gokr does confirm there isn't then |
| 13:14:09 | gokr | Well, I am fairly n00bish so... don't trust me :) |
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| 13:17:05 | Araq_ | Varriount: sure, disabling the error popup is what system/excpt.nim should default to. |
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| 13:22:06 | Araq_ | kokozedman: just wrap some C protobuf lib via c2nim ;-) |
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| 13:26:02 | Jehan_ | Araq: Huh, I'm honestly not sure why that would have broken something. All it does is insert C code that should compile pretty much always; the compiler proc is always there and it checks the functionality that it uses with `when declared`. |
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| 13:29:21 | Araq_ | Jehan_: setStackBottom sets a thread local variable |
| 13:29:44 | Araq_ | the TLS is not initialized yet at this point though |
| 13:29:48 | Araq_ | and hence it crashes |
| 13:29:51 | Jehan_ | Oh, I see. |
| 13:29:55 | kokozedman | Araq_: this is what I'm trying to do, not really sure how to work with c2nim... but trying |
| 13:30:17 | Araq_ | kokozedman: gokr has written a nice article about it |
| 13:30:34 | Jehan_ | Ugh, that's an annoying corner case. |
| 13:30:41 | kokozedman | oh, thanks... |
| 13:31:00 | Jehan_ | I'll have a look at it later. |
| 13:31:01 | kokozedman | gokr: do you mind sharing the link to your c2nim article? |
| 13:32:43 | gokr | check http://goran.krampe.se/category/nim |
| 13:32:56 | Araq_ | Jehan_: well I have a fix ... that for some reasons doesn't work at all |
| 13:33:25 | Araq_ | will look at it again later |
| 13:33:36 | Jehan_ | Araq: Details? I can't promise that I'll be able to look at it until tonight, though (work). |
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| 13:41:12 | Araq_ | well I just introduced another compilerproc initThreadVarsEmulation that's called before setStackBottom by the codegen |
| 13:41:37 | Araq_ | but the crash remains |
| 13:41:58 | Araq_ | but I did it half-asleep, so I'm sure it's something trivial |
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| 14:06:21 | gokr | kokozedman: I presume you found it: http://goran.krampe.se/2014/10/16/nim-wrapping-c/ |
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| 14:12:05 | kokozedman | gokr: yes, I did... being sucked-in by your other Nim articles ;-) |
| 14:12:15 | gokr | :) |
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| 14:27:02 | gokr | gitlab is really neat. |
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| 15:24:03 | kokozedman | how to get suggestions working in Aporia? I already enabled it in preferences, but it always end-up with a red text saying there is nothing |
| 15:24:41 | kokozedman | (Nim compiled from master branch) |
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| 17:02:07 | gokr | kokozedman: There may be some issue with Aporia and latest Nim, it kinda... stopped working for me when I moved to devel. Haven't investigated. |
| 17:03:31 | gokr | Varriount: Got the 32 bit working on an old laptop here, running Peppermint 5. So both Linux build slaves are now working. |
| 17:03:51 | gokr | Time to unpack a new TV bench :) |
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| 17:16:34 | NimBot | nim-lang/nimforum new_async 4d45981 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Fixes sidebar style on smaller screens. |
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| 18:03:16 | Araq | gokr: isn't that simply caused because it's now "nim" so aporia can't find it anymore? |
| 18:04:04 | gokr | Could be. |
| 18:04:33 | gokr | I did change the compiler command to use "nim" instead of nimrod - but the suggest is probably wired to nimrod. |
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| 18:08:32 | ldlework | gokr: well does it start working if you put a link? |
| 18:08:51 | gokr | I haven't tried, a bit busy right now |
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| 18:15:07 | lbmn | The future belongs to whatever language has the shortest domain name (tcl.tk being an exception). Don't delay, get a nim.xx domain name today! 3:) |
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| 18:27:32 | ldlework | isn't there a .im ? |
| 18:28:13 | wan | If you could buy back nim.pl |
| 18:31:19 | lbmn | .la (language) was open last time I checked. |
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| 19:25:41 | kokozedman | what's the way to create a ptr SomeType from within Nim? |
| 19:26:27 | kokozedman | might be doing things wrong, but I'm trying to bing a C library, and there is no function to create the struct, it's up to the user to allocate it |
| 19:26:39 | kokozedman | how to do that "allocation" right within Nim? |
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| 19:31:08 | Araq | you can use cast[ptr SomeType](alloc(sizeof SomeType)) or better just declare it as SomeType and use addr to get a pointer to it |
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| 19:32:58 | NimBot | nim-lang/nimforum new_async 9e7b889 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Syntax highlighting colors implemented. |
| 19:32:58 | NimBot | nim-lang/nimforum new_async fb24365 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±3 -0]: Better form styles. Implemented new design for post preview. |
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| 19:50:32 | kniteli | Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone else has tried using the vecmath library from nimble lately? I get a compile error on something the manual says should work (unless I'm misunderstanding it) |
| 19:51:25 | kniteli | Vecmath does this: result = TMatrix[TMatrix.N - 1, TMatrix.M - 1, TMatrix.T, TMatrix.O]() |
| 19:51:45 | kniteli | Where TMatrix looks like this: type TMatrix*[N: static[int]; M: static[int]; T; O: Options] = object |
| 19:51:46 | kniteli | data*: array[0..M*N-1, T] |
| 19:53:11 | Araq | -.- |
| 19:53:50 | Araq | yeah yeah yeah this matrix stuff doesnt work |
| 19:55:33 | kniteli | and the compiler doesn't like it |
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| 20:30:35 | Mat3 | hello |
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| 20:42:01 | NimBot | nim-lang/nimforum new_async 2ac0f93 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Margin bottom for <pre> code. |
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| 20:44:14 | Araq | hi Mat3 |
| 20:44:36 | Mat3 | hi Araq |
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| 20:51:01 | lbmn | https://www.facebook.com/copyfree.org/photos/a.220472174811436.1073741828.220434508148536/313302362195083/?type=1 |
| 20:51:54 | lbmn | If some Nimrod fan does more blogging about it, I'll do more sharing. ;-) |
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| 20:56:01 | ldlework | lbmn: About what |
| 20:57:52 | lbmn | Nim(rod). |
| 20:59:50 | lbmn | ex. https://www.facebook.com/copyfree.org/posts/313308992194420 |
| 21:00:25 | lbmn | Write about how Nim compares to other languages, write more tutorials, etc. More blogs == more attention == more contributions, eventually. |
| 21:00:40 | ldlework | lbmn: http://blog.ldlework.com/a-cursory-look-at-meta-programming-in-nim/ |
| 21:01:01 | lbmn | Excellent! |
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| 21:10:30 | Mat3 | Araq: I tested some register allocation schemes between different C style calling conventions. It is generally possible to reserve at least two registers in a safe way, directly accessing them though inline assemblation. Because it is not guaranteed a C compiler can use them for optimization purposes procedures need to be hinted as 'volatile' of course |
| 21:11:37 | Mat3 | ^can not |
| 21:11:50 | Araq | I see |
| 21:13:22 | gokr | lbmn: I presume you saw my articles? |
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| 21:15:46 | lbmn | I might have missed posting them. URLs? |
| 21:16:02 | lbmn | I'll try to keep up with http://www.reddit.com/r/nimrod/ from now on. |
| 21:16:19 | gokr | lbmn: http://goran.krampe.se/category/nim |
| 21:16:23 | ldlework | lbmn: mind posting my article to the reddit? |
| 21:16:46 | gokr | A whole slew of articles there. Feel free to spread, at least one of them has already seen some reddit action I think. |
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| 21:31:52 | lbmn | I don't use Reddit, I run the Copyfree Facebook Page. |
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| 21:43:17 | gokr | lbmn: Right, sorry. |
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| 21:58:50 | gokr | lbmn: But anyway, my articles are free to link to or whatever you wish. :) |
| 21:59:41 | gokr | And I have 2-3 more brewing, just need time to make them. I think the next one will be about "seq" and the one after that, probably Exception handling. |
| 22:05:05 | ldlework | We need a "Why Nim when there's Rust?" post |
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| 22:05:18 | ldlework | its like the only question I ever get when I bring up Nim :( |
| 22:05:57 | gokr | Mmm, you need people like Araq and Jehan etc to try to answer that. I don't know Rust, and I know too little Nim :) |
| 22:06:30 | ldlework | gokr: I have the same problem answering |
| 22:06:34 | gokr | But obviously there are differences, Jehan pointed out the obvious fact - Rust doesn't do GC, Nim does in an optional way. |
| 22:06:35 | ldlework | Though I have looked at Rust |
| 22:07:03 | gokr | Also, the error handling with I wrote about - seems very primitive in Rust. |
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| 22:11:22 | Mat3 | gokr: Rust appeal to C affiniates (one goal of this language is mimic C's syntax as much as possible) |
| 22:12:33 | ldlework | Mat3: yeah I totally feel that when I see the patterns and destructuring and ... wait what |
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| 22:22:19 | Araq | ldlework: how does Rust do --taintMode? how does it async+await? how does it deal with overflows? (hint: it doesn't) |
| 22:22:33 | Araq | the languages are vastly different |
| 22:22:44 | ldlework | Araq: I don't know anything you just said |
| 22:23:24 | Araq | you might as well ask "why do we need Ruby when there's Lisp" |
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| 22:23:49 | Mat3 | well, that's a good question I think |
| 22:24:00 | gokr | So in most aspects you mention and I did - one could say Rust is "lower level", right? |
| 22:24:11 | ldlework | :( |
| 22:25:17 | gokr | I mean, it doesn't do overflows - does it do bounds checks? The error handling model is... well, it seems almost non existent to me. Async stuff is a high level construct, as is GC one could claim. |
| 22:25:50 | gokr | But it does do more advanced type inference possibly, or? |
| 22:28:20 | Araq | gokr: it does bound checks. but it doesn't check for overflows |
| 22:28:29 | gokr | ok |
| 22:30:13 | Mat3 | gokr: Rust at least has a more solid type system than C and support some higher level abstractions (like generics, lambda expressions and closures) |
| 22:30:13 | lbmn | Because Rust is a conspiracy by former Java programmers to lower programmer productivity in a new century? |
| 22:32:01 | gokr | Mat3: Yeah, I mean... it has a lot of goodies for sure. My impression so far is that its "lower level" and also less focused on being practical and more focused on safety and ... no gc. |
| 22:32:02 | ldlework | I kind of just want to be able to illuminate why I'm learning Nim instead of Rust |
| 22:32:10 | ldlework | (in all honesty, i don't actually *know*) |
| 22:32:48 | Araq | ldlework: because Nim treats you like a genius, Rust like an idiot. |
| 22:33:00 | ldlework | Dangerous proposition |
| 22:33:03 | ldlework | :) |
| 22:33:23 | Mat3 | gokr: I think so. Garbage Collection for example is probably disadvantageous for (hard) real time applications |
| 22:33:43 | ldlework | Unless you're ocaml apparently! :) |
| 22:33:47 | * | ldlework tickles Jehan_ |
| 22:34:11 | gokr | Personally Rust felt all too complicated when I looked at it a year ago. Ok, so it has been simplified so people say. But every time I look at it - I get turned off. |
| 22:34:54 | ldlework | Dunno, Rust seems like a smaller language than Nim |
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| 22:35:31 | ldlework | When I look at the Docs, I see, normal procedural stuff, plus pointers, patterns, generics and traits |
| 22:35:37 | gokr | ldlework: But what is your reaction to the error handling in Rust? |
| 22:35:40 | ldlework | Which doesn't make me panic |
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| 22:36:02 | Mat3 | However, this languages is of same limitation as C for low-level programming (whereby decent C compiler at least offering some useful extensions for that purpose) |
| 22:36:09 | gokr | Not that the error handling is an example of "complicated" - rather... the opposite. |
| 22:36:20 | bjz | Araq: "Nim treats you like a genius, Rust like an idiot." I dunno - |
| 22:36:45 | ldlework | gokr: can't really say. since I haven't really written anything substantial in Rust, I haven't used it much |
| 22:37:06 | gokr | ldlework: But do read that section in their doc. If you can find it :) |
| 22:37:18 | Araq | bjz: oh really? why do macros have to end in ! then? that's language design for notepad users. There are plenty of other examples. |
| 22:37:22 | gokr | (hint: No point in searching for a section called Error handling or similar) |
| 22:38:37 | ldlework | Araq: PLEASE START BLOGGING |
| 22:38:46 | ldlework | ahem "Writing Articles" |
| 22:39:04 | Araq | bjz: why re-invent exception handling with 'try!'? what problems do exceptions cause in practice in all the languages that happen to have them that are not c++? |
| 22:39:06 | bjz | Araq: When I make a change to something, I know I can just step through the fixes - it will ensure the types/memory management works out. It offloads part of my concerns to allow me to think about other stuff. I guess Nim might be similar though - I don't feel like a simpleton using Rust though. |
| 22:39:16 | gokr | ldlework: http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2014/10/16/on-error-handling/ |
| 22:39:30 | Jehan_ | ldlework: Umm, no. |
| 22:39:55 | ldlework | Jehan_: no what |
| 22:39:56 | Jehan_ | ldlework: My point about OCaml was not that it's superior, but that it had soft realtime GC for a couple of decades. |
| 22:40:04 | ldlework | Jehan_: oh hey I was just teasing |
| 22:40:21 | ldlework | Jehan_: I read a lot more about OCaml and I'm willing to conceede there. |
| 22:40:26 | Jehan_ | So there's no real excuse for the state of the art to lag behind that. |
| 22:40:41 | ldlework | Jehan_: sorry you got upset last time, I hope you don't carry a grudge |
| 22:40:50 | bjz | Araq: macros use ! for tooling purposes - it lets you know that here you enter code where only matching delimiters are enforced. It means you don't need to know any semantics about the program. |
| 22:40:57 | Mat3 | Araq: Because obfuscating postfixes can ease parsing and have the advantage that reading code get a lot harder |
| 22:40:58 | Jehan_ | No, I was just getting frustrated, no ill feelings. :) |
| 22:41:20 | bjz | Araq: semantics of the macro I mean |
| 22:41:39 | Araq | bjz: that's totally unnecessary |
| 22:41:52 | bjz | Araq: it may be |
| 22:42:04 | bjz | Araq: that's just what I have been told |
| 22:42:30 | bjz | Araq: nim has much nicer macros than Rust, from what I've seen |
| 22:43:00 | ldlework | the macros are what made me stay |
| 22:43:08 | bjz | ie. they seem less separate from the rest of the language. |
| 22:43:23 | bjz | Araq: try! will be replaced with something richer in the future. |
| 22:43:45 | Araq | not to mention that the whole language design was done by brute force. it's nice that they came up eventually with an innovative design, but it still feels like they still don't know what they are doing. |
| 22:43:56 | bjz | Araq: but we can't have exceptions due to all the issues with unwinding |
| 22:44:19 | Araq | and the exception re-inventing way to do error handling is just the latest example of that |
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| 22:46:27 | bjz | Araq: it is an issue about making error codes cleaner, whilst also only having failure that can only be caught at the task boundary. It's neccesary to think a little differently. Nim has the benefit of being garbage collected - Rust does not/ |
| 22:47:04 | bjz | Araq: we don't want a repeat of the fiasco that is C++'s exceptions |
| 22:47:22 | bjz | https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/issues/434 |
| 22:48:40 | bjz | Araq: anyway, I feeli like they have taken a very iterative design process, but they have managed to come up with a design that feel quite coherent, and is very simple at its core. That |
| 22:49:21 | bjz | Araq: I was concerned at first design wise - I am usually more of a fan of a more considered approach, as you have taken. |
| 22:49:44 | bjz | Araq: anyway, gotta go |
| 22:50:47 | bjz | Araq: not trying to push Rust on you - just adding an alternative perspective. We are all trying to push the boundaries of the combinatorial space of language design, for the better. :) |
| 22:51:14 | gokr | Personally I am all for Rust succeeding (whatever that means) - and I felt it had some interesting ideas (borrowing etc) - but... for me personally I have a hard time grasping it. |
| 22:51:27 | bjz | gokr: no worries |
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| 22:52:00 | bjz | gokr: we need better docs etc. I think things will become a lot clearer once the dust has settled post 1.0 |
| 22:52:23 | gokr | Mmm, but some say "its a small language" - but... I don't think it is. |
| 22:52:37 | gokr | There are literally tons of mechanisms AFAICT. |
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| 22:53:50 | bjz | gokr: gotta go, sorry |
| 22:53:55 | gokr | no prob |
| 22:53:57 | Mat3 | personally, I dislike Rust's syntax (the same way as I dislike the syntax of C) - I found it hard to read |
| 22:54:01 | bjz | gokr: would love to follow that up |
| 22:54:05 | bjz | Mat3: +1 |
| 22:54:07 | gokr | Sure, I am around :) |
| 22:54:25 | Araq | you simply cannot have a decent small statically typed language in 2014. |
| 22:54:42 | Araq | the small languages are all dynamically typed. |
| 22:54:58 | gokr | You got a point there, but Nim feels (funny enough) smaller than Rust. |
| 22:55:16 | Araq | it also doesn't matter much. what matters is the complexity of the resulting systems. |
| 22:55:42 | gokr | Sure, I agree. But there is often IMHO a strong correlation with "lots of mechanisms" and "unreadable mess of code". |
| 22:55:44 | Mat3 | hmm, Go is a small but static typed language (one exception of a rule, probably) |
| 22:56:02 | Araq | Mat3: that's why I added *decent* |
| 22:56:11 | Mat3 | *lol* |
| 22:56:19 | Araq | of course, if you pretend to not need generics, etc. you can stay small |
| 22:56:39 | Matthias247 | Mat3: if you ccan call it static typed when you need interface{} for a lot of things :) |
| 22:58:08 | gokr | I have a friend that always said - if you are a good developer you can write good code in any language, C++ too. And he is right, and he was also the top student and a brilliant programmer. I always told him: Yeah, but lots of developers aren't good. |
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| 22:59:53 | gokr | So if you have a "larger" language, like Nim - you need lots of good example code. Libraries. Apps. So that you can learn how the Romans do it. |
| 22:59:53 | Mat3 | Matthias247: agree, however dynamic languages offering often more sophisticated methods (like runtime modifications dependent on state changes) |
| 23:00:57 | gokr | Now, Nim has that going. And since Nim also encourages "libraries in source form" its easy to read code and learn. And thank god, Araq and dom96 etc actually try to write readable fairly straight forward code - thus creating a style. |
| 23:01:05 | flaviu | Varriount: Actually, I'm wrong wrt to buildbot being in the arch repos |
| 23:01:18 | flaviu | It is there, I just messed up the tab completion |
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| 23:05:42 | Araq | gokr: we're living in a world where the same guys who insist on reviewing every single line of code that gets written also insist that you cannot reasonably avoid features that are baked into the language... |
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| 23:28:45 | Mat3 | ciao |
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