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03:29:38 | def-pri-pub | I'm having an issue with trying to create a new Table for a custom `object` I've defined. |
03:30:46 | def-pri-pub | I've git this object here: https://github.com/define-private-public/toybox/blob/master/nim_js/3d_canvas_cube/cube.nim#L14 |
03:31:06 | def-pri-pub | But when I try to run this line: |
03:31:08 | def-pri-pub | https://github.com/define-private-public/toybox/blob/master/nim_js/3d_canvas_cube/cube.nim#L117 |
03:31:13 | def-pri-pub | I get an error from the compiler: |
03:31:24 | def-pri-pub | cube.nim(117, 53) template/generic instantiation from here |
03:31:24 | def-pri-pub | lib/pure/collections/tables.nim(427, 16) Error: cannot instantiate: 'A' |
03:31:28 | def-pri-pub | (pls halp) |
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03:51:05 | Araq | def-pri-pub: newTable() is too stupid to do type inference, write newTable[float, seq[Line]]() |
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04:00:48 | def-pri-pub | *sadface* |
04:00:55 | def-pri-pub | gotcha |
04:15:39 | Araq | but hey, you can leave out the ': TableRef[...]' declaration |
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05:01:25 | Araq | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/27904532/how-do-i-make-a-self-extract-and-running-installer |
05:01:45 | Araq | idea: produce a self-extracting 7z file and make it run 'finish.exe' after unzipping; patch 'finish.exe' to download optional GCC/Aporia packages |
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05:28:46 | subsetpark | > cube.nim(117, 53) template/generic instantiation from here |
05:28:46 | subsetpark | In general, what does this error message mean? I seem to only see it when there's some other, more concrete message about something obviously wrong |
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05:35:19 | ftsf | subsetpark, it means problem happened in template generated code, and the thing that generated it was on that line. |
05:37:34 | subsetpark | Ah... I see. So, not that 'template/generic instantiation' itself is bad, but just 'if you're looking for the template/generic that let to <problem>, look here' |
05:37:51 | subsetpark | So does that mean we can always expect *some* other more specific error message? |
05:39:34 | ftsf | yep i think so |
05:39:57 | ftsf | it's not an error message, but it tells you where the related error message happened |
05:42:58 | subsetpark | that makes a lot of sense |
05:43:24 | subsetpark | the wording is not very clear, but now i understand |
05:45:19 | subsetpark | next question... what's the difference between nake and the task functionality in nimble? they seem to overlap a lot. |
05:47:15 | Araq | nake works by compiling a builder app, nimble runs the tasks via an interpreter. |
05:47:32 | Araq | both approaches have their cons and pros. |
05:47:58 | Araq | nake supports Android builds out of the box afaik, Nimble doesn't |
05:48:53 | Araq | the Nimble task API was inspired by nake ;-) |
05:49:09 | subsetpark | ah, very interesting |
05:49:20 | def-pri-pub | Alright, the `html5_canvas` package is ready for the prime time: https://gitlab.com/define-private-public/HTML5-Canvas-Nim |
05:49:24 | subsetpark | I never thought about compiling builder apps |
05:49:31 | def-pri-pub | I'll make a post about it on my blog tomorrow. Night guys. |
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07:21:22 | dom96 | Araq: https://www.reddit.com/r/nim/comments/5mx31i/version_0160_released/dc9st51/?context=3 |
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08:42:41 | FromGitter | <dom96> From http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ |
08:42:46 | FromGitter | <dom96> > Q: How may I nominate a new language to be added to the TIOBE index? |
08:42:57 | FromGitter | <dom96> > it is sufficiently popular (more than 5,000 hits for +"<language> programming" for Google), |
08:43:21 | FromGitter | <dom96> Nim currently gets ~4100, we're not too far off. |
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09:42:26 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> @Araq great, the regression with static types I mentioned yesterday is already fixed! :-) |
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09:49:32 | Araq | I know. you're welcome. |
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09:58:22 | GustavoLapasta | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/master/lib/windows/winlean.nim#L441 -> field sa_data is private |
09:58:32 | GustavoLapasta | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/master/lib/posix/posix.nim#L466 -> field sa_data is public |
09:58:40 | GustavoLapasta | is it on purpose? |
09:58:55 | GustavoLapasta | I was trying to access that field on a windows machine. |
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10:00:58 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> I have a couple of questions on the new foreignDep feature of nimble |
10:01:15 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> Does it support alternatives? (install this *or* that) |
10:02:17 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> Does it work with transitive dependencies? (package A needs a foreignDep; do I get a suggestion when installing package B that depends on A)? |
10:03:10 | Araq | GustavoLapasta: unlikely, but what does this field do |
10:03:32 | Araq | andrea: transitivity should work out of the box. |
10:04:09 | Araq | no support for alternatives, I'm afraid. you can have an 'if' in your nimscript and try to make the choice for the user |
10:05:10 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> ok, thank you |
10:05:24 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> I'll put both :-) |
10:05:48 | GustavoLapasta | Araq it's part of a struct returned by getAddrInfo(), it contains the socket address in network format |
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10:11:18 | cheatfate | GustavoLapasta, push PR with patch please |
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10:12:15 | cheatfate | GustavoLapasta, but please do not use this field, because it very platform dependent, even bsd/macos has different format from other unixes |
10:16:01 | GustavoLapasta | Yes, actually I've been struggling a few hours now to get the uin32 network address passing an address string like "www.google.com" or "127.0.0.1" to nativesockets.getAddrInfo() or nativesockets.getHostByName(). Any hint would be highly appreciated. |
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10:22:22 | cheatfate | GustavoLapasta, https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/lib/pure/asyncdispatch.nim#L1124 maybe this code snippet help you |
10:25:24 | cheatfate | GustavoLapasta, and you can cast it.ai_addr to cast[ptr Sockaddr_in](it.ai_addr).sin_addr |
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10:26:56 | GustavoLapasta | sounds good, i'll give it a try. ty cheatfate |
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10:29:34 | Araq | can we please rename the 'dealloc' for this to something sane? |
10:29:53 | Araq | every time I read it it makes me cringe |
10:31:10 | Araq | from nativesockets import foo, bar, baz # dealloc not imported, watch the code crash and burn |
10:31:30 | Araq | it's a horrible design. |
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10:43:55 | cheatfate | Araq, agree, we can avoid this stupid dealloc... |
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11:13:35 | GustavoLapasta | <cheatfate> GustavoLapasta, and you can cast it.ai_addr to cast[ptr Sockaddr_in](it.ai_addr).sin_addr |
11:13:52 | GustavoLapasta | it works, that was the right solution, thanks again cheatfate. |
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11:48:54 | PMunch | Hmm, dom96 I read more of Nim in Action over Christmas. Even took quite a few notes on my Kindle for things that could be improved. But I haven't found a good way to get the notes off the device in a way that makes sense. I can only get the raw notes but that doesn't show their position in the text... |
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14:59:18 | yglukhov | dom96: ping |
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15:11:05 | def-pri-pub | Blog post about compiling Nim to JS (along with HTML5 Canvas bindings) is live: https://16bpp.net/blog/post/html5-canvas-bindings-for-nims-javascript-target |
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16:44:19 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> I know this has been discussed forever, but I just found this on HN http://eta-lang.org/ and I thought it is a really nice example of a clean design for a language website |
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16:58:52 | dom96 | andreaferretti: have you seen our new site? |
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17:01:00 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> uh? |
17:01:29 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> have there been any change lately? |
17:01:37 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> it looks the same to me |
17:03:33 | dom96 | andreaferretti: no, Calinou has been working on a new one. It's not finished yet https://github.com/nim-lang/website |
17:04:11 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> I did not know about that |
17:04:22 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> I will have a look |
17:04:23 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> :-) |
17:04:51 | Calinou | do check out the jekyll_prototype |
17:04:57 | Calinou | it's simple, clean and responsve :) |
17:04:58 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> is it just `jekyll serve`? |
17:05:07 | Calinou | yeah, you clone it, cd jekyll_prototype, then "jekyll serve" |
17:05:13 | Calinou | and access http://localhost:4000 |
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17:06:35 | kulelu88 | wow functional programming is complicated (eta-lang) |
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17:07:30 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> wow, much better! :-) |
17:07:55 | dom96 | Calinou: I made some attempts at adding logos of our top sponsors to the front page + an invitation to contribute, but I really suck at it and it so far hasn't materialised into anything visually pleasing :) |
17:07:59 | dom96 | I will keep trying though. |
17:08:15 | dom96 | yglukhov: pong |
17:08:41 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> I hope this lands soon! :-) |
17:09:25 | Calinou | I'm currently in an internship until January 24, btw |
17:09:30 | Calinou | also, I got a new laptop :) |
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17:11:16 | dom96 | Calinou: does that mean you have lots of time after the 24th? :) |
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17:12:48 | kulelu88 | do you guys read the HN comments after making submissions to HN? |
17:13:23 | Xe | kulelu88: generally if you ignore the hardcore rust fanbodys you're fine |
17:13:49 | FromGitter | <andreaferretti> there's http://hnreplies.com/ if you want to follow replies |
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17:15:39 | dom96 | kulelu88: I do |
17:15:42 | Calinou | dom96: I have about a week without classes between January 24th and February 1st |
17:15:49 | Calinou | (normally) |
17:16:02 | dom96 | oh D: |
17:16:43 | * | Calinou clones nim-website on new laptop, to see the site on a 4K display |
17:16:46 | FromGitter | <martinium> I have a stupid question. Does Nim have good parallelization support or does it only support concurrency? |
17:18:03 | kulelu88 | 1 comment stood out from the recent submission: "A casual skim through the top of the commit history indicates that Araq (Andreas Rumpf) is still doing almost all of the development. That's a red flag — being responsible for a complex language, compiler, standard library and documentation is a lot of work. (And it's of course a dangerous bus factor.)" |
17:18:35 | dom96 | martinium: it supports parallelization fairly well |
17:18:53 | dom96 | Calinou: Think you'll be able to use some of that time to work on the site? |
17:19:02 | dom96 | also, what laptop did you get? |
17:19:03 | Calinou | I'll try |
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17:19:21 | Calinou | Lenovo Yoga 910, with 16 GB RAM, i7-7500U, 512 GB SSD, 4K display, in black :P |
17:19:23 | FromGitter | <martinium> @dom96 does the Nim site use Jester? |
17:19:28 | Calinou | pretty good machine, it's a 13.9" convertible |
17:19:29 | dom96 | martinium: the forum does |
17:19:50 | dom96 | Calinou: nice |
17:19:52 | FromGitter | <martinium> @calinou that laptops specs are sex |
17:19:56 | def-pri-pub | Is there a tool out there were I can input Nim code, and have Syntax hilighted JS code spat out at me? |
17:20:16 | FromGitter | <xxlabaza> VS Code |
17:20:26 | Calinou | I considered many other machines (ThinkPads, MacBook Pros) but the performance/price wasn't as good, this one is quite expensive already |
17:20:41 | Calinou | also the finish on this machine is really good almost MacBook-level I'd say |
17:21:11 | FromGitter | <martinium> Macs are overrated |
17:21:18 | cheatfate | martinum: please explaing `parallelization`, because so many people uses this word wrongly |
17:21:20 | FromGitter | <martinium> They are good machines their laptops |
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17:21:37 | Calinou | yeah, also I have a slight preference for Windows 10 over macOS |
17:21:48 | Calinou | many MS tools are very good now, even Microsoft Edge is overall not bad |
17:21:49 | kulelu88 | eeuuww Windows |
17:21:56 | Calinou | unfortunately I can't use Linux for studies, kulelu88 :( |
17:22:01 | FromGitter | <martinium> @cheatfate parallelization means taking advantage of all the cpu cores in a machine. |
17:22:09 | Calinou | the university doesn't forbid it but we need Adobe/Office |
17:22:09 | def-pri-pub | Calinou: have you you heard about the good news of our lord and saviour Richard Stallman? |
17:22:12 | FromGitter | <martinium> Thats my definition |
17:22:20 | def-pri-pub | And is son Linus Tvorlds |
17:22:20 | kulelu88 | I'm kidding Calinou :) |
17:22:34 | Calinou | def-pri-pub: "old man yells at cloud" ;) |
17:22:40 | FromGitter | <martinium> Linux > Windows > macOS |
17:22:51 | FromGitter | <martinium> For development and running mission critical software |
17:23:03 | def-pri-pub | Calinou: I actually got to meet him once at SeaGL and ask him a few questions |
17:23:14 | FromGitter | <martinium> End user experience on windows is still the best when it comes to media consumption |
17:23:31 | def-pri-pub | I asked what he thought was the biggest threat to free software in the near future, and he responded with SaaS platforms. |
17:23:52 | def-pri-pub | /r/stallmanwasright |
17:24:03 | Calinou | apparently, Linux is still pretty bad with hiDPI displays :( |
17:24:16 | Calinou | while the latest Windows 10 builds are good for the most part with it |
17:24:38 | Calinou | on a clean install, nearly everything worked out of the box, including automatic display rotatio, touch screen, keyboard disabling in tablet mode... |
17:25:14 | FromGitter | <martinium> @calinou recent linux builds have excellent hidpi support |
17:25:19 | FromGitter | <martinium> At least ubuntu and arch |
17:25:32 | Calinou | well, the core OS might (with KDE or Unity) but the applications will hate it |
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17:25:41 | cheatfate | martinium: we have some problems with `parallelization` in macos currently :) |
17:26:00 | FromGitter | <martinium> I run a 4k display and a second 1920x1200 display and they perfectly |
17:26:05 | FromGitter | <martinium> Linux rocks |
17:26:24 | FromGitter | <martinium> @cheatfate what about on linux? |
17:26:54 | kulelu88 | people run servers on MacOS? wut? |
17:27:13 | def-pri-pub | Calinou: when Linux comes anything that visually related it always seems to be a shitshow for the end users. The only place where I've seen Linux excel in graphics is Ray Tracers (or at least running tem) |
17:27:17 | def-pri-pub | them* |
17:27:18 | FromGitter | <martinium> Back in the day |
17:27:27 | FromGitter | <martinium> Some people did @kulelu88 |
17:27:36 | FromGitter | <martinium> Back in the xserve days |
17:27:44 | FromGitter | <martinium> But i think for basic sites and file servers |
17:27:50 | def-pri-pub | I still get a crap ton of screen tearing when writing OpenGL apps or watching YouTube videos. |
17:27:59 | cheatfate | martinium: linux/windows supported by threads.nim, there only problem with macos, because it don't support to set thread affinity to cpu. |
17:28:04 | FromGitter | <martinium> MacOS is not a good os for performance. Linux and windows obliterate it |
17:28:37 | FromGitter | <martinium> All HPC set ups use either linux or windows |
17:28:40 | FromGitter | <martinium> 99% use linux |
17:29:42 | FromGitter | <martinium> @cheatfate so threads.nim is for both multithreading/concurrency and for parallelism? |
17:31:06 | def-pri-pub | martinium: I'm not sure what's really happended with OS X as of late in the terms of performance :/ |
17:31:07 | cheatfate | martinum: threads.nim is a tool using which you can implemenent parallelization and concurrency |
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17:31:36 | def-pri-pub | I had a late 2014 Mac Mini that I updated to Sierra in Mid 2015 and it completely drained all of the speed from the system. |
17:32:03 | cheatfate | martinum: BSD is faster then linux by design, and macos is using bsd's kqueue, but you are right nobody wants to use macos (maybe because it expensive?) |
17:32:03 | def-pri-pub | What also sucks too is that I can't put any more RAM into the thing. It's soldered onto the mainboard (unlike previous models). |
17:32:37 | FromGitter | <martinium> @def-pri-pub it is bloated. Apple cares about normal non-geeks and having a pretty UI with usability over performance |
17:33:41 | FromGitter | <martinium> MacOS even hides the real unix file system from users by default |
17:33:52 | FromGitter | <martinium> Something devs need to see and use |
17:33:53 | def-pri-pub | marinium: I've also heard from a few of my Art friends that they're starting to jump ship back to Windows because they haven't like Apple as of the past few years. |
17:34:17 | Calinou | these days, Microsoft is becoming a much stronger player vs macOS |
17:34:17 | FromGitter | <martinium> Yeah, that myth has taken a long time to dispel |
17:34:34 | Calinou | they make nice hardware (Surface Pro, Surface Book), and they show what they're capableof |
17:34:36 | def-pri-pub | what myth? |
17:34:39 | FromGitter | <martinium> Windows is much better for artists of all genres be it music movies artwork |
17:34:48 | kulelu88 | much stronger player ? they own 80+% of the desktop market |
17:34:48 | Calinou | Visual Studio Code is also a pretty nice editor (with good Nim support by the way) |
17:34:49 | FromGitter | <martinium> The myth that macs are better for graphics work |
17:35:00 | Calinou | kulelu88: I mean, innovation and coolness-wise |
17:35:04 | def-pri-pub | Calinou: Microsoft has really stepped up their game since they got rid of Balmer |
17:35:06 | FromGitter | <martinium> Windows outperforms them in all art software |
17:35:07 | Calinou | Microsoft used to be "lol, boring, crashes all the time" |
17:35:15 | Calinou | now it's closer to being the trendy thing |
17:35:26 | def-pri-pub | Windows is going to be the new Hipster OS |
17:35:29 | Xe | martinium: OSX used to be the top of the kek |
17:35:30 | FromGitter | <martinium> Windows 7 ushered the era of rock solid stability |
17:35:51 | FromGitter | <martinium> Used to be a long time ago since they were the first to work with color graphics |
17:35:51 | cheatfate | martinum: try to use wacom tablet with windows (restart services and drivers all the time) |
17:36:05 | FromGitter | <martinium> I have one and it works well |
17:36:10 | FromGitter | <martinium> Using win 10 |
17:36:35 | cheatfate | martinum: mine is always not working after sleep |
17:36:51 | FromGitter | <martinium> I uninstalled windows completely for ubuntu since rarely game anymore but win 10 is rock solid |
17:37:23 | FromGitter | <martinium> Lots of backdoors and spying but still better than mac and more performant lol |
17:38:06 | FromGitter | <martinium> If linux had more professional grade software available it would take over |
17:38:14 | cheatfate | more performant where? network? graphics? storage? |
17:38:43 | FromGitter | <martinium> As compared to mac |
17:38:52 | FromGitter | <martinium> More performant in cpu speed |
17:38:57 | def-pri-pub | I really just want the graphics stack to get better. The only way I feel that's going to happen is when it has more Market Share. |
17:39:02 | FromGitter | <martinium> Ui also more responsive |
17:40:01 | FromGitter | <martinium> Windows and mac are responsible for entire generation of people being computer illiterate |
17:40:09 | FromGitter | <martinium> Dumbing down tasks and interfaces |
17:40:18 | FromGitter | <martinium> Linux didnt coddle anyone |
17:40:52 | FromGitter | <martinium> Most people can only open a browser and go on web in addition to maybe using an office suite |
17:41:09 | FromGitter | <martinium> Thankfully most colleges use linux in their cs programs |
17:41:34 | FromGitter | <martinium> Windows 8 was a big loss for MS |
17:41:35 | def-pri-pub | martinium: I beg to differ on the "computer illterate part," It's moreso that most of the application that people now run are in a browser, and they are mainly sites like "Facebook," "YouTbue," "Twitter," etc. |
17:41:51 | FromGitter | <martinium> Thats just web though |
17:42:03 | def-pri-pub | It's the web & smartphones that have made people dumber |
17:42:04 | FromGitter | <martinium> They dont know how to move through their filesystem |
17:42:16 | FromGitter | <martinium> Dunno what anything means |
17:42:42 | FromGitter | <martinium> Web more information than ever yet people have gotten dumber because they seek pleasure and fun over knowledge |
17:43:19 | FromGitter | <martinium> Thats why languages like Nim with approachable syntax and speed can bring more back over into the knowledge realm |
17:43:42 | FromGitter | <martinium> New gen of school kids see C code and think its esoteric |
17:44:04 | FromGitter | <martinium> Due to the shift towards dumber easier interfaces etc |
17:45:50 | FromGitter | <martinium> Seems like that is changing though hopefully continues and more and more people are adopting nix thanks to web dev roles and scientific computing all being done on linux/unic |
17:45:53 | FromGitter | <martinium> Unix* |
17:46:12 | def-pri-pub | martinium: yeah, I'm a little saddened by that. I used to be a tutor (for CS) at my University. |
17:46:55 | def-pri-pub | They would start all of the kids out on Python. It's not a bad langauge, except for the fact that it doesn't enforce type. I swear to god half of the issues I had to solves for students in the first weeks related to type issues. |
17:46:57 | FromGitter | <martinium> Call me crazy but C made a lot of sense to me even though I only did the basics in it |
17:47:34 | FromGitter | <martinium> Python hides too much. Abstracts how things work that programmers should know about |
17:47:38 | def-pri-pub | I did a BASIC syntax first, then another BASIC variant (which compiled to C++). They both enforced Type strictly. Then I moved onto C++. |
17:47:45 | FromGitter | <martinium> Breeding an entire gen of mediocre programmers |
17:48:38 | FromGitter | <martinium> I am still learning and have dabbled in the low level langs but since I have a day job I wanted modern syntax and speed in a compiled lang. Nim is perfect for it |
17:48:39 | def-pri-pub | My department was more concerned with first teaching them the concepts of CS first (e.g. linked lists and algorithms) and then the hardware implementation next(Assembly and CPU architecture) |
17:48:52 | FromGitter | <martinium> Nice |
17:49:03 | FromGitter | <martinium> I def need to learn assembly |
17:49:09 | FromGitter | <martinium> Sometime in future |
17:49:20 | def-pri-pub | Eh, I wished they force everyone to take a "Learn Programming" class first before making them take the Intro to CS course. |
17:49:51 | def-pri-pub | Try MIPS first. It's kind of the de-facto learning language. It's also fun too. |
17:50:18 | FromGitter | <martinium> I'll look into that |
17:50:37 | FromGitter | <martinium> Nim lets you embed raw assembly in the code I think as well |
17:50:48 | def-pri-pub | https://www.amazon.com/Computer-Organization-Design-Fifth-Architecture/dp/0124077269/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484157033&sr=8-1&keywords=computer+architecture+and+organization+hennessy+and+patterson |
17:50:53 | def-pri-pub | ^^^ |
17:51:13 | def-pri-pub | That book. Teaches you MIPs and how the CPU works. |
17:51:47 | def-pri-pub | There' also a follow up book too that goes more into the CPU: |
17:51:48 | def-pri-pub | https://www.amazon.com/Computer-Architecture-Fifth-Quantitative-Approach/dp/012383872X/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1484157084&sr=1-3 |
17:52:25 | def-pri-pub | The two most impactful CS courses I think I ever took back at Uni where Computer Organization & Computer Architecture. |
17:53:04 | FromGitter | <martinium> Nice |
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17:53:17 | FromGitter | <martinium> I remember when I was curious about how circuits work |
17:53:42 | FromGitter | <martinium> Then realized that the circuit instructions are now atomically small |
17:53:45 | FromGitter | <martinium> Mind blown |
17:53:54 | FromGitter | <martinium> Cpu's seem like magic |
17:54:17 | FromGitter | <martinium> When you learn how they really work |
17:54:38 | def-pri-pub | Get that first book then. It's a pretty heafty read but really insightful. It's on my TODO list to re-read it. |
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17:56:27 | FromGitter | <martinium> I will def do that |
17:56:40 | FromGitter | <martinium> Will take some time to get through that beast though |
17:56:57 | FromGitter | <martinium> Thats as low level as one go before machine code |
17:57:16 | Calinou | here, students are taught PHP as first language, JavaScript as second |
17:57:19 | Calinou | but this is not CS, it's a multimedia course |
17:57:50 | def-pri-pub | what-chu-talkin' bout martinium. Machine code has a 1-to-1 correspondance with Assembly (unless you're using pseudo instructions) |
17:58:33 | FromGitter | <martinium> Oh ok thats good then |
17:58:51 | FromGitter | <martinium> Php for multimedia course makes sense if they are doing web tasks |
17:58:58 | FromGitter | <martinium> Php7 is fast |
17:59:14 | FromGitter | <martinium> Important thing is being able to study quality code |
17:59:28 | FromGitter | <martinium> I hear php suffers from lots of spaghetti code |
17:59:35 | euantor | My first language was Visual Basic .NET, taught in high school. At least it kind of enforces types, more than Python anyway |
17:59:41 | Calinou | PHP 8 will be even faster, it'll have a JIT! |
17:59:57 | Calinou | yes, tons of PHP code is crap; it doesn't mean you can't write good PHP code |
17:59:58 | FromGitter | <martinium> I love this focus on performance |
18:00:09 | FromGitter | <martinium> Its all due to mobile/portable smart devices |
18:00:23 | FromGitter | <martinium> Gotta get the most performance to save battery |
18:00:25 | Calinou | if you use a well-established framework and modern (5.6+, 7.0+) practices, you can end up having quite clean code |
18:00:38 | Calinou | well, PHP runs on the back-end, there's no battery life there |
18:00:51 | Calinou | it's just that PHP used to be slow as molasses |
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18:02:46 | def-pri-pub | I feel like people who write PHP should be switching to Hack and HHVM instead. |
18:02:51 | FromGitter | <martinium> It was slower than python |
18:03:01 | FromGitter | <martinium> But now its much faster |
18:03:15 | FromGitter | <martinium> Php 7 faster than hhvm |
18:03:26 | FromGitter | <martinium> Its actually pretty good |
18:03:41 | def-pri-pub | Really? |
18:03:41 | FromGitter | <martinium> As far as dynamic web languages go |
18:03:46 | FromGitter | <martinium> Yeah it is |
18:04:06 | FromGitter | <martinium> I looked at benchmarks when php7 was released |
18:04:10 | FromGitter | <martinium> Its really fast |
18:04:11 | def-pri-pub | I remember when Facebook first made HipHop to transpile their PHP codebase over to C and they crazy performance boosts. |
18:04:37 | FromGitter | <martinium> Yeah php7 now negates that |
18:04:38 | FromGitter | <martinium> Hehe |
18:04:48 | def-pri-pub | https://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/12/20/1433257/The-Environmental-Impact-of-PHP-Compared-To-C-On-Facebook?art_pos=12 |
18:04:52 | def-pri-pub | correct: it was C++ |
18:05:05 | def-pri-pub | correction* |
18:05:39 | Calinou | HHVM is a RAM hog compared to PHP 7, too |
18:05:46 | Calinou | it's also considerably hard to build |
18:06:04 | def-pri-pub | Soon enough, the only way to write highly scalable web apps is going to be in Assembly :P |
18:06:06 | Calinou | so, for 99% of users on small VPSes, you want PHP 7, not HHVM |
18:06:20 | Calinou | def-pri-pub: CPUs keep getting more powerful :P |
18:06:28 | def-pri-pub | Then after that ASICs |
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18:06:32 | Calinou | Go can be used to make web apps that scale, too |
18:06:38 | Calinou | or Rust, or a JVM language like Scala |
18:06:41 | cheatfate | guys this is #nim channel |
18:06:44 | FromGitter | <martinium> But people should make efficient use of all that power |
18:06:53 | cheatfate | this is not channel about php |
18:06:58 | cheatfate | or any other languages |
18:07:00 | FromGitter | <martinium> Otherwise its wasted potential |
18:07:12 | def-pri-pub | Calinou: other issues are going to be with memory fetch speed too. |
18:07:12 | FromGitter | <martinium> I think Nim can be great for webapps |
18:07:32 | FromGitter | <martinium> C is still considered the fastest lang behind asm |
18:07:48 | FromGitter | <martinium> So Nim with a few killer apps can make huge inroads |
18:08:06 | dom96 | cheatfate: true, but I think it's okay to let a little bit of offtopic chatter from time to time |
18:08:12 | dom96 | Especially when nobody else is chatting about Nim |
18:08:20 | FromGitter | <martinium> Development time would be greatly decreased while still being superfast |
18:08:33 | def-pri-pub | I was talking about writing an ORM library for Nim yesterday. I think that needs to happen first before Nim will be considered for Web Apps. |
18:09:04 | FromGitter | <martinium> @dom96 you actively working on jester? |
18:09:19 | FromGitter | <martinium> You have competition with crystal/kemal |
18:09:34 | dom96 | martinium: not actively |
18:09:47 | dom96 | I spent my last holidays working on Nimble |
18:10:13 | FromGitter | <martinium> I remember |
18:10:55 | FromGitter | <martinium> Hopefully I can learn enough to start feeling more comfortable. I am making many small apps a bit at a time |
18:11:08 | FromGitter | <martinium> Trying out stdlib features |
18:11:13 | FromGitter | <martinium> So I know what they do |
18:11:27 | FromGitter | <martinium> To learn how to use them etc |
18:11:40 | FromGitter | <martinium> A lot to learn but the syntax is very approachable |
18:12:02 | FromGitter | <martinium> Good for people like me who can only code after work |
18:14:23 | FromGitter | <martinium> @cheatfate are you a core contributor to Nim? Your name looks familiar |
18:15:03 | cheatfate | martinum: what does it mean `core contributor`? |
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18:18:21 | dom96 | I think he's wondering whether you have contributed code to the Nim compiler and/or stdlib |
18:18:30 | dom96 | The answer is: yes, cheatfate did :) |
18:18:44 | dom96 | and I would say a significant amount |
18:20:09 | kulelu88 | I remember someone else here saying they would work on a better HTTP std lib for Nim. Was it you? Xe |
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18:21:14 | cheatfate | dom96, not so significant as you |
18:21:33 | FromGitter | <martinium> Like do you work on the lang itself |
18:21:38 | FromGitter | <martinium> Is what I meant |
18:21:56 | dom96 | kulelu88: what's wrong with the current one? :) |
18:22:16 | kulelu88 | ehh nothing dom96 . It was just 1 of those "we can do it someday" type of discussions |
18:22:36 | FromGitter | <martinium> Do we mnow which libs need to be optimized further? |
18:22:46 | FromGitter | <martinium> Know* |
18:22:55 | dom96 | kulelu88: I see. |
18:23:07 | FromGitter | <martinium> A lot of stuff needs to be tracked and probably already is |
18:23:33 | FromGitter | <martinium> I think Araq needs more contributions from fellow skilled programmers like many in this room. |
18:24:01 | FromGitter | <martinium> Would help get Nim to a stable 1.0 version sooner rather than later. |
18:24:30 | Xe | kulelu88: i was, then depression hit me in the kneww |
18:24:50 | kulelu88 | Xe: no worries about it. I hope you get better :) |
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18:33:43 | kulelu88 | dom96: is the Nim syntax similar to Cython in some ways? |
18:36:46 | dom96 | don't know enough about Cython to give an answer |
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18:43:29 | Calinou | I never got Cython to work, but I got Nim to work |
18:43:33 | Calinou | that's a difference I guess :P |
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18:46:01 | Araq | Nim has a type system. Cython thinks optimization means to annotate trivial locals with "int" and "float". |
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18:50:00 | dom96 | he's asking about the syntax |
18:50:58 | Araq | dom96: ok, fair enough. Often "syntax" doesn't mean anything though and the question could have been "compare Cython to Nim for me" |
18:51:07 | kulelu88 | yeah no doubt that Nim probably runs circles around Cython |
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18:56:06 | euantor | The one thing that we're missing from the HTTP libraries (in terms of marketing anyway) is HTTP2 support. That seems to be how you sell HTTP libraries these days |
18:58:01 | GustavoLapasta | Porting c code to nim. In my machine size_t is defined as "unsigned int" so I would translate it to Nim's "uint", but c2nim translates it to a plain "int". Why isn't "uint" correct? |
18:58:43 | Araq | GustavoLapasta: it's correct, but more cumbersome to use :-) |
18:59:04 | Araq | plus unsigned is viral and suddenly you end up with strange modulo arithmetic everywhere |
18:59:36 | Araq | and suddenly you cannot convert your numbers to float reliably anymore ;-) |
19:00:02 | GustavoLapasta | ah, I see. ty Araq |
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19:35:51 | subsetpark | I think you can reliably substitute 'Python' for 'Cython' in that syntax question |
19:37:38 | dom96 | In case anybody is interested, current numbers for tokio-minihttp vs. asynchttpserver https://gist.github.com/dom96/b3b6f45a5aba63077c090dd0ff9016e9 |
19:47:21 | dom96 | Latency is definitely much better when realtime GC is used (updated). |
19:49:57 | dom96 | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13376485 That's a good list of misconceptions about Rust, I myself thought that it did prevent race conditions. |
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19:51:36 | Araq | no it prevents data races. |
19:54:07 | dom96 | then how come steven says otherwise? |
19:58:14 | Araq | because not everybody uses the same definitions. |
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20:10:43 | Trustable | guys, what prefix do you recommend for object member variables to distinguish it from get/set method? |
20:11:13 | dom96 | give the method a prefix |
20:11:19 | Araq | Trustable: you can usually get away with the same name if the member is private |
20:11:20 | dom96 | getField() |
20:13:44 | Trustable | I don't, that different names are not required, but makes life easier I think. W |
20:14:00 | Trustable | I know, that different names are not required, but makes life easier I think. |
20:14:47 | Araq | use an 'f' suffix then, prefixes are harder to read than suffixes. |
20:16:38 | Trustable | so far I use 'f' as prefix. why is a suffic better to read? examples: obj.fTitle, obj.titlef, obj.titleF |
20:16:46 | dom96 | bleh |
20:16:48 | dom96 | please don't |
20:17:40 | dom96 | what's wrong with getField()? |
20:18:34 | Trustable | I prefer to avoid the 'set' and 'get' prefix, just write for example 'obj.title = "a"' |
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20:21:56 | dom96 | hrm, fair enough |
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20:24:46 | Trustable | so how would you name a member variable 'title'? I noticed, that '_title' is not allowed. |
20:25:42 | Araq | fTitle is fine, mTitle is fine, titleF is fine but uncommon |
20:26:45 | Trustable | ok, ty |
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23:10:51 | kulelu88 | is this the install documentation: http://nim-lang.org/download.html |
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