<< 11-08-2019 >>

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00:13:43	FromDiscord_	<Shield> the part abotu Swap in https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/doc/destructors.rst
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01:23:33	FromDiscord_	<Shield> it may be the lack of sleep but I can't wrap my head around newruntime
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04:45:41	FromGitter	<bevo009> Can you assign a proc to a variable in Nim? ⏎ I can't find it mentioned in the docs ⏎ If it is possible, how would I fix this statement? ⏎ ```var msg = echo 42``` #error [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5d4f9d755178a724766839b0]
04:48:13	FromGitter	<bevo009> Arent these examples procs being assigned to variables? ⏎ ```var rs = initRand(6)``` ⏎ or ⏎ ```let name = readLine(stdin)``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5d4f9e0dbfd2887f53c9b482]
04:49:45	FromGitter	<bevo009> I know I could do this: ⏎ ⏎ ```proc a = echo 42 ⏎ a()``` ⏎ But that's not my question``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5d4f9e694e17537f520ebd06]
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05:07:31	rayman22201	@bevo009 https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1RhG
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05:24:54	FromGitter	<bevo009> That's interesting. Is it documented anywhere?
05:25:07	FromGitter	<bevo009> or maybe it's not idiomatic in Nim
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05:38:08	rayman22201	It is idiomic. Documented under closures perhaps?
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05:53:31	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> so there's no way to get a typedesc back from a NimNode after passing a typedesc to a macro - correc?
05:53:35	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> correct*
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05:58:12	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> actually I think I have another way of doing what I need to do so disregard my last qusetion
06:00:02	FromDiscord_	<Shield> what are you working on @zacharycarter?
06:00:22	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> still working on that macro for NimScript
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06:01:09	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> just adding some extra features - I'd like the feature to be smart enough to call each macro for every complex object nested inside another complex object
06:01:11	FromDiscord_	<Shield> use nimscript as a scripting language? or to replace hcr?
06:01:48	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> oh - well - I'm using it as an alternative to HCR, since HCR has some kinks I haven't been able to find the solution to on my own
06:02:07	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> and you can already use NimScript as a scripting language - but you have to embed the stdlib in your codebase which isn't ideal - but is another problem entirely
06:02:20	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> the macro I'm working on basically eases passing complex object b/w NimScript and Nim
06:02:55	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> it generates the vmhook to create an instance of a complex object from VmArgs and it also generates a proc to create a PNode from a complex object for calling setResult on
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06:10:05	FromDiscord_	<Shield> cool, hcr sounds great but I didn't have long compile times past the initial compiling
06:10:14	FromDiscord_	<Shield> yet
06:11:42	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> once incremental compiling is done it may make HCR etc kind of pointless
06:11:58	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> but I still think games present a special case where you can need to reload code, art assets, shaders, etc
06:12:10	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> so I don't think it's necessarily wasted on them
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07:30:15	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> is it possible to have a gathers all of the fields of an object which are also objects?
07:30:33	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I am trying to write a recursive procedure which calls a macro to do this - but I'm struggling
07:39:23	FromGitter	<mratsim> Something like this? https://github.com/mratsim/Arraymancer/blob/master/src/nn/optimizers/optimizers.nim#L74-L80
07:41:37	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> thanks - let me give that a go
07:42:20	FromGitter	<mratsim> basically when iterating with fields, you can use when foo is object for recursive expansion
07:43:08	FromGitter	<mratsim> it’s the same strategy as my flat iterator: https://github.com/mratsim/Arraymancer/blob/master/src/private/nested_containers.nim#L22-L30
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08:08:32	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> thanks @mratsim - I think I can get this working with your suggestion :)
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08:15:39	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> hmm - it does work kind of - it generates the procs but since the second proc that is generated calls the first proc - I get an error about the identifier being undeclared
08:16:30	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> even though I recurse before I generate the procs for the actual type
08:16:34	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> so that's weird
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08:42:47	shashlick	@mratsim - just saw this https://github.com/Qthreads/qthreads
08:48:49	FromGitter	<mratsim> yes I know about it, didn’t delve too much though
08:49:18	FromGitter	<mratsim> I like the lab report on parallel runtime they did in 2013
08:49:53	FromGitter	<mratsim> https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2012/1210594.pdf
08:52:19	FromGitter	<mratsim> There are so many libraries and papers and so little time to do actual code though :/
08:52:26	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> can anyone think of why this would be happening? If I echo my macro's result.repr - I can see `getBar` being created before `getFoo` (which calls `getBar`)
08:52:37	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> but I still get - Error: undeclared identifier: 'getBar'
08:52:47	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> maybe I need to generate a forward declaration?
08:53:07	FromGitter	<mratsim> maybe bind or bindSym”getBar"
08:53:18	FromGitter	<mratsim> instead of just ident”getBar"
08:53:19	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> hmm let me try that - good idea
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09:06:22	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> neither seem to work :/
09:07:44	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> oh well - maybe there's a different way to go about this
09:17:05	shashlick	Do you need code reordering
09:17:15	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> oooo
09:17:16	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> maybe
09:22:03	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> didn't help either
09:22:04	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> doh well
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10:40:50	FromDiscord_	<tomku> how do I declare a template string with some {vars} that can later on be fed to $? like so: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1Rit
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10:43:05	FromGitter	<Vindaar> @zacharycarter did you figure it out?
10:43:23	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> no - taking a break from it and just working on my game for a bit
10:43:42	FromGitter	<Vindaar> @tomku: this might be what you're looking for: https://nim-lang.github.io/Nim/strutils.html#%25%2Cstring%2CopenArray%5Bstring%5D
10:43:55	FromGitter	<Vindaar> ah, ok!
10:49:49	FromDiscord_	<tomku> @Vindaar: works like a charm, thanks!
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11:10:06	lqdev[m]	also, you can declare the string as const and feed it to fmt later
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11:44:29	Araq	ping clyybber
11:48:31	clyybber	Araq: Hi
11:48:41	Araq	did you find new problems?
11:48:58	clyybber	Araq: Nope. But I have an idea for an optimization
11:49:08	clyybber	A very simple one
11:49:14	Araq	hah, me too
11:49:30	Araq	move destructors into after "last usage of 'x'"
11:49:50	Araq	and then let 'wasMoved(x); =destroy(x)' cancel each other out
11:50:15	clyybber	Araq: Yay
11:50:36	clyybber	I think thats basically the branch based approach if I understand you correctly
11:50:48	Araq	=sink looks better and better.
11:50:52	Araq	;-)
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11:53:00	Araq	but if we want to optimize, we should write an optimizer, it doesn't affect the spec much.
11:54:17	clyybber	Btw, it *was* actually cooldomes patch that fixed our problems: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/commit/948c625f95d061e7f2608d9ead20d1fd05a64cd0#diff-c2f32b8561115a01d52343ae891a8640R381
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11:55:04	clyybber	Because it causes wasMoved(x) to be applied before x gets assigned to select(...)
11:55:58	clyybber	My Idea for an optimization is to not generate those blitTemps for the sink arguments, but instead only one temporary for the return value of select(...)
11:56:22	clyybber	So we transform: x = select(true, x, y)
11:56:41	clyybber	to: let tmp = select(true, x, y)
11:56:50	clyybber	wasMoved(x); wasMoved(y)
11:56:57	clyybber	x = tmp
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11:57:33	clyybber	Its a very minor optimization, but it depends on the number of sink arguments involved.
11:57:35	Araq	that's worse because missing NRVO
11:58:03	Araq	x = f(...) is often turned into 'f(..., x)' # construct inplace
11:58:37	Araq	er... doubt it's called NRVO but you get the idea.
11:59:36	Araq	also, usually you pass a construction to a sink parameter
11:59:59	Araq	and then we don't generate wasMoved anyway.
12:01:55	Araq	however there is bug https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/11833 which means we generate too few 'wasMoved' :P
12:02:24	Araq	and so I'm patching the spec and after that I can check where the implementation got it wrong.
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12:41:23	clyybber	Araq: 11833 happens because in injectdestructors:504 isSinkTypeForParam is false.
12:41:51	Araq	well system.`@` doesn't use 'sink'
12:42:11	Araq	which means worse codegen, but it should still be correct
12:42:21	clyybber	Yeah, thats what buffles me too
12:42:26	clyybber	It should still not crash
12:42:32	Araq	yup
13:02:38	dom96	Araq, easy merge? https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/11879
13:04:51	Araq	dom96: no. I don't understand it completely
13:06:10	dom96	It's similar to how this was fixed: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/8484
13:07:02	Araq	what's special about nkVarTy, nkBracketExpr? nothing
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13:08:29	Araq	so this patch is at best incomplete
13:08:47	Araq	and most likely the fix for nkVarTy was wrong too
13:08:47	dom96	The problem is that I can't call hasCustomPragma on a field that is `Point[float]` for example
13:09:00	dom96	Not sure why I can't reproduce it though
13:09:10	Araq	so? 'ref Point' is also affected then
13:09:16	Araq	(that would be nkRefTy)
13:09:31	dom96	That's possible
13:10:12	dom96	It's likely that this is incomplete, but at least it fixes the problem I am having
13:10:36	dom96	(and Vindaar too by the looks of it)
13:11:22	Araq	hmm, I remember this patch differently
13:11:29	FromGitter	<Vindaar> yes. Although for me personally it was only a blocker for that `doNotSerialize` PR
13:11:42	Araq	please rebase, mark it with 'XXX look into this further'
13:11:51	Araq	and if it's green, I shall merge it
13:11:56	dom96	yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to implement in my own serialization library
13:12:01	Araq	but as I said, it's incomplete.
13:12:42	Araq	krux02 also rewrote customPragmaNode but I don't know what happened with the PR
13:13:23	krux02	I looked at the PR recently
13:13:44	krux02	I think there was only something minor holding it back and then I forgot about it.
13:13:55	krux02	I should probably finish it.
13:14:38	krux02	it does split the functionality a bit nicer into procedures, and most importantly, it provides an api that takes NimNode (use from macros)
13:17:06	dom96	krux02, if you do finish it CC me in the PR (and possibly here) so that I can test it with my code
13:17:19	krux02	ok
13:17:21	dom96	anyway, I updated my PR
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13:29:00	krux02	dom96: this is my PR: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/11526
13:29:11	krux02	it is ready to be tested
13:29:57	krux02	it is feature complete, all that needs to be done now is to massage the test environment.
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13:34:01	dom96	krux02, commented with a stack trace that I get
13:34:11	krux02	ok
13:34:12	dom96	very odd
13:34:48	krux02	can you also post a code to use the serializer?
13:34:55	dom96	afraid not
13:34:56	krux02	I would like to make a test out of it
13:35:20	dom96	I think @Vindaar might have a test case of some sort though
13:35:35	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Really cool that you can view other people's solutions on Exercism, you can find like a ton of approaches to the same problem, this is a great tool for learning.
13:36:23	dom96	Nice! Big props to those that are creating exercises for Nim on Exercism :)
13:37:24	FromDiscord_	<tomku> yep! shame there are so few mentors though
13:38:04	FromGitter	<Vindaar> Unfortunately I don't have one either. As I commented here: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/11879#issuecomment-519496631, the problem started happening with an existing test case, after this commit: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/commit/28bb5650bb347520e41033181a064ac16646f6a8
13:38:27	dom96	but that test case reproduces it, right?
13:39:15	FromGitter	<Vindaar> yes, but only if that commit were merged ;)
13:40:02	FromGitter	<mratsim> BTW @Araq and @Clyybber can we create types that can't be copied, only moved?
13:40:57	Araq	https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/lib/system/widestrs.nim#L36 sure, and it's shipping
13:41:00	FromGitter	<Vindaar> the thing is I don't even know if it's really the same problem. The test case that breaks makes no use of a custom pragma
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13:41:25	dom96	Vindaar: hrm, but your change makes sense I think. Before the custom pragma wasn't checking all nodes it was supposed to
13:41:36	dom96	Yeah, but even if no custom pragma is used the nodes still are checked
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13:42:00	clyybber	Araq: Yeah, just declare `=` with an {.error.} pragma
13:42:22	clyybber	Oh, sry wrong tag, @mratsim
13:42:36	FromGitter	<Vindaar> yes, which is why https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/11415 happens
13:43:06	Araq	clyybber: if =sink doesn't need to check for self-assignment, does it even need to call =destroy ?
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13:43:38	Araq	and then why do we need =sink? it's always a bitcopy
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13:44:28	clyybber	Araq: But we leak if we don't =destroy x in `=sink(x, ...)`
13:44:58	Araq	not if we emit the =destroy before it
13:45:07	clyybber	Yeah, thats an idea that came to mind too
13:45:46	Araq	well I'm leaving it as it is now
13:45:58	Araq	maybe the self-assign check is required after all
13:46:36	clyybber	It is only required when the rexpression in an assignment includes the lhs symbol.
13:47:13	Araq	sure.
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13:47:22	clyybber	And since `=` makes a deep copy, we wont have problems with aliasing.
13:47:30	clyybber	Everything will just work
13:47:32	clyybber	I think
13:47:50	Araq	hmm if we don't have =sink we can get 'emplacement' for free, maybe?
13:48:06	clyybber	What do you mean with emplacement?
13:48:10	Araq	that's still a major missing piece
13:48:27	Araq	in C++ there is vector::emplace_back
13:48:49	Araq	it constructs the object directly at vec[vec.len]
13:49:32	Araq	we have to zero its memory so that =destroy doesn't do anything
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13:52:02	clyybber	Araq: Afaict emplacement is only saving one copy with a type with reference semantics. So it only matters for value types. But emplace back in cpp isn't that special right?
13:52:17	clyybber	It just takes whatever is required to construct the object in place
13:52:37	Araq	it uses some forwarding technique to make construction lazy
13:52:51	Araq	and so it can construct into uninit'ed memory
13:55:35	clyybber	Araq: I would introduce an `=overwrite` operator or something like that which doesn't care what location is it's destination.
13:55:45	clyybber	And use that in emplace_back
13:56:24	clyybber	Ah, but if =sink is a simple shallow copy, that won't be neccessary
13:56:51	clyybber	Hmmm, I like how everything convienently falls into place
13:57:16	krux02	clyybber I don't think you can do that
13:57:38	krux02	if you override =, you have to deconstruct the object on the left hand side of the operator
13:58:02	krux02	if you emplace, you may not deconstruct the object on the left hand side of the operator, because it is uninitialized data.
13:58:24	clyybber	krux02: Thats why I was talking about a new operator
13:58:31	clyybber	which wont deconstruct the object on the lhs
13:59:14	krux02	and when will that operator be called?
14:00:33	clyybber	`=overwrite`
14:00:42	clyybber	But as it turns out that wont be needed
14:00:52	krux02	My solution for an emplace back would be a macro/template that can be called like this ``emplaceBack(myInitProc, arg1, arg2, arg3)``
14:00:56	clyybber	When =sink doesn't deconstruct the lhs itself
14:01:25	clyybber	But rather the compiler injects a `=destroy`(lhs) before a `=sink`(lhs, ...)
14:02:07	clyybber	Then you could have some pragma or whatever that tells the compiler to not inject `=destroy`(lhs)
14:02:14	clyybber	an then we have a free emplacement
14:02:19	clyybber	I think thats what Araq meant
14:03:15	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> I think the documentation could be updated (added examples on certain procedure uses) from solutions on exercism.
14:05:09	*	laaron quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in)
14:05:36	dom96	btw we're overdue our yearly community survey
14:05:37	*	laaron joined #nim
14:06:18	dom96	I guess we can stop doing this if it's not valuable
14:06:25	dom96	but it was nice to get this signal every year
14:07:45	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> im up for a survey, wasn't the last one from 2017 ?
14:08:41	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> if you ask me, it's good to know whats going on in the Nim community, based on the data, one could see areas to improve for more growth
14:08:46	dom96	https://nim-lang.org/blog/2018/06/23/community-survey-2018.html
14:08:48	dom96	2018
14:11:05	FromGitter	<mratsim> BTW will we have destroy for ptr object in the future? That would really help wrapping C library with all the pointers and context that you need to manage.
14:12:38	Araq	mratsim: no, pointers are pointers, C++ doesn't attach destructors to pointers either
14:13:25	Araq	dom96: I think it's very valuable and what we improved was based on the feedback we got, even though sometimes it doesn't look like it
14:13:45	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Based on the surveys, tutorials/documentation and 1.0 is really the biggest issue, (documentation is also Godot's problem)
14:14:00	clyybber	mratsim: You can just wrap the pointer in an object.
14:14:35	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> im a bit behind my schedule on making those videos, constant shit going on, freaking holidays, and people keep bugging me xD...
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14:27:12	clyybber	Araq: So everything boils down to:\n * Inject `=destroy`(x) when before a `=sink`(x, ...) or a `=`(x, ...)
14:28:08	FromGitter	<Vindaar> @treeform: in case you're around, have you seen my chroma PR? https://github.com/treeform/chroma/pull/4
14:28:17	clyybber	Wrap (`=destroy`(x)` and) `=sink`(x, ...) in a self-assigncheck when `...` includes `x`
14:28:34	clyybber	And `destroy`(x) after its last use.
14:29:05	clyybber	And then we have a fast new runtime :D
14:30:09	clyybber	And the self-assign check AND the nil check in =sink will be gone
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14:32:53	clyybber	Btw Araq, I think I have found why 11833 is crashing
14:33:33	clyybber	Argh, nevermind, not yet
14:38:52	Araq	clyybber, krux02 proc add*(x: seq; y: sink T) {.nodestroy.} = copyMem(x[x.len], y)
14:39:03	Araq	we can do "emplace" already
14:40:10	dom96	krux02, Araq: I've reproduced it: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/11923
14:40:12	Araq	but copyMem doesn't always work, I guess
14:43:35	clyybber	=sink could be the new copyMem
14:43:42	clyybber	or will if we implement the above
14:44:16	dom96	btw am I missing something obvious? Why doesn't this compile? https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1Rjq
14:46:12	FromGitter	<Vindaar> because `Point` is defined after `MyObj`?
14:48:36	dom96	yep
14:48:41	dom96	Do we have an issue for this?
14:48:48	dom96	The error message is horrible
14:48:54	Araq	yeah, we do.
14:49:00	krux02	dom96: I tested your issue on my branch, here it works
14:50:03	dom96	There must be some other issue in your branch then
14:50:33	dom96	or maybe I just needed to re-bootstrap
14:53:35	Araq	clyybber: well Rust uses copyMem for moving, so there is some way to make it work
14:54:33	Araq	but how Rust does it precisely is not documented well and in a state of flux. It uses hidden 'wasMoved' bit flags
14:54:50	Araq	Nim uses the default(T) state for this.
14:55:26	Araq	more elegant IMO and Nim can move from array[index] and Rust can't.
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15:10:33	Araq	clyybber: did you play with .cursor variables?
15:10:51	Araq	IMHO we should simply remove them again, 'lent T' does the same (?)
15:13:54	clyybber	Yeah, looks like that to me.
15:14:06	clyybber	They both are always shallow copied and never destroyed.
15:15:00	Araq	ok, good
15:15:11	*	Araq removes them from the spec
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15:21:27	disruptek	clyybber: you deserve a lot of credit for the time you put in on this.
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15:31:37	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> Araq, do you have a like to the rust wasMoved bits?
15:35:21	Araq	arnetheduck: we had these bits too, they simply don't work well
15:35:56	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> er, oops, I meant link ;)
15:36:12	Araq	hmm, let me see
15:37:15	Araq	https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/drop-flags.html
15:37:34	Araq	https://blog.rust-lang.org/2016/04/19/MIR.html
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15:38:01	Araq	there always was an RFC that made me "WTF?!" :P
15:38:43	Araq	where they ignored the problems entirely. (The problem being: How do you store the drop bits on the **heap**?)
15:39:40	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> and thinking about the array[index] case, what does it actually mean to have moved away from an array? `default(T)` means you have two instances after the operation of `move` - is that the intended intuition?
15:39:45	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> thanks
15:40:27	aq60	Hi, when using the newruntime, and this `proc `toref`*[T](x: var T): ref T = cast[ref typeof(x)](x.addr)` theres an error: `nim-0.20.2\lib\core\runtime_v2.nim nimDecWeakRef attemt to read from nil`
15:42:45	aq60	Basicly im casting to ref in a loop, it passes with the first 5-6 objects, but on the next one it fails
15:44:48	Araq	aq60: that's simply not a valid cast, in no runtime, neither old nor new
15:45:07	Araq	'ref' means it's provably on the heap.
15:45:57	aq60	how should I cast ref, like you do .addr with ptr?
15:46:06	clyybber	disruptek: Thanks, it was more of a learning experience, now that we know =move is actually unneccessary
15:46:12	Araq	arnetheduck: it means you won't access array[index] afterwards anymore but when you do, at least it's deterministic and it will have the "empty" container in it
15:47:02	Araq	it's a compromise because nobody knows how to reason about heap locations effectively
15:48:21	aq60	It works with the old runtime
15:48:36	Araq	aq60: you simply got very very lucky
15:48:46	aq60	:)
15:48:54	disruptek	clyybber: sure, but you got your hands dirty and newruntime as a research project is the beneficiary. ;-)
15:48:56	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> well, there's "shouldn't" and "won't" - there's no way for the compiler to prevent it, so code *will* access it - there's no point pretending otherwise - the interpretation that there are two instances after `move` seems more correct and honest at that point, and seemingly it provides the correct explanation for what goes on instead of leaving a black box of uncertainty
15:50:23	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> I mean, consider the simple case of iterating over the array - if you explain to users that "it means you won't access it", intuitively the for loop should skip it?
15:54:05	clyybber	arnetheduck: It is consistent with the fact that Nim initializes to 0. So if you want to you can imagine, that by iterating over the moved location you create a new T in it
15:54:35	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> (what I'm after is a mental model for the feature that allows me to derive behaviours in corner cases - a simple model, but not a simplistic one)
15:55:39	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> clyybber, that doesn't "work" though - iterating over something is not a mutating operation
15:56:04	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> neither is reading it by accessing array[index] after the move
15:56:04	clyybber	arnetheduck: Then imagine it was always there
15:57:06	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> well, that's what I suggest as interpretation: after `move`, you have two instances - a new one where the previous one was, and a moved-to one
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15:57:25	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> but I wonder if it's a) correct and b) the simplest one
15:57:46	clyybber	arnetheduck: Well, yeah, but it doesn't matter. I can also pretend there is an instance of *something* at any pointer/
15:58:10	disruptek	why isn't `import net` an "unused import" here? https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1RjL
15:58:26	disruptek	something to do with the `to()` call.
15:58:31	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> not really - most languages declare that there's nothing at `nil` for example and build logic around that
15:59:13	clyybber	arnetheduck: Well, then theres nothing at the previous location
15:59:21	clyybber	Since the move nils out the source
15:59:48	clyybber	Or default(T)'s out the location. It doesn't matter
16:00:45	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> well, that's the point - there's language in the standards that says that at address 0, there *can't* be an instance - it's simply invalid to interpret it as one, 0 or not..
16:01:31	aq60	still waiting for the proper way of casting a ref :)))
16:01:53	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> this is not an opinion really on whether it's good or not to use default(T) as a marker, just an exploration of the consequences
16:02:55	Araq	aq60: there is *none*, ref points into the heap and usually there is a header with a refcount etc that the compiler wants to touch
16:03:55	Araq	disruptek: I don't know, report it please
16:04:21	aq60	I knew i should model the objects with ptr, but no, I wanted to try the safe ref :))
16:04:27	disruptek	arnetheduck: to me it seems like a simple model, but not a correct one. the fact that we can discern the difference in conversation means that the difference isn't captured by the model. if that's the case, as long as the difference has semantic relevance, then the model is insufficient, right?
16:04:47	disruptek	Araq: okie.
16:06:24	Araq	disruptek: there is always a way to talk about things that are not captured by the programming model. Does "" for an email address mean that you don't know the address or that you know that the user has no email address?
16:06:45	disruptek	exactly, it's insufficient to capture the semantics.
16:07:17	disruptek	i would not say that this is "always" the case, though.
16:07:23	Araq	insufficient depends on the context, "" is good enough for you to notice that you cannot send an email to this person
16:07:39	disruptek	well, we decide what the semantics will be and how the data will reflect that.
16:08:15	shashlick	@mratsim that's how I made shared - ptr in object
16:08:36	shashlick	https://github.com/genotrance/shared
16:08:51	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> and even if you have "" and nil both, it's not enough to capture that the user has two email addresses - likewise, if you say that default(T) is the thing, then there are certain things you can't express / do efficiently, but the argument here is that in relation to other features in the language, it's a reasonable tradeoff
16:08:54	shashlick	But it still suffers from multiple gc issue
16:09:10	disruptek	i guess if `default(T)` was written as `nonexistent(T)`, it would satisfy my point; does that make sense?
16:09:52	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> you have to pay the price for `nonexistent(T)`
16:10:10	disruptek	ie. the programmer conveys the semantic intent instead of picking and choosing from data which is (merely by convention) matching their intent.
16:10:27	disruptek	hey, nothing in this life comes free. ;-)
16:10:48	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> so you can use an `option[T]` if you need that - default(T) for that is "no instance". done.
16:11:22	disruptek	isn't that kinda accidental and arbitrary, though? what if the default value for a type is not "no instance"?
16:11:31	disruptek	it's convention, right?
16:11:58	Araq	well it's just a bunch of bits, the rest is convention, of course.
16:12:18	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> no, it's design: you know that default(T) works in way X, so you design option(T) (or you seq, or whatever else you're doing) to work this way
16:12:36	Araq	well yeah. that's what we do.
16:12:41	aq60	so this is blasphemy? https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1RjP
16:12:42	disruptek	so default(T) is nonexistent(T), by spec.
16:13:09	disruptek	i'm fine with that, if that's the case; i got the impression that there was some "third way" here.
16:13:15	Araq	well I would say "empty", not "nonexistent".
16:13:22	Araq	and I'm not sure these are the same.
16:13:23	Araq	;-)
16:13:43	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> no, it's not - it's default(T) - you can't distinguish between the two - that's what I'm trying to say: you have two instances after move - that intuition covers this potential ambiguity
16:14:22	disruptek	same same. the issue is whether the programmer needs to discern between these, and whether they can provide that discrimination to the compiler, right?
16:15:30	clyybber	Well, ram is flat, so empty and nonexistant is the same really?
16:16:47	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> well, it has other consequences to: when do you run the destructor for a type in the array case? once when moving and once when the array is destroyed?
16:16:50	disruptek	depends on how many dimensions your ram has. :-P
16:17:38	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> it seems that after you've moved from array[index], you'll have two destructor calls: once for the new instance in array[index], and once for the location you moved to
16:17:50	clyybber	arnetheduck: The reason for moves is to elide destructors. So you will only destroy something that isnt default(T)
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16:19:06	clyybber	Araq: I fixed 11833
16:19:17	clyybber	I'll make a PR
16:19:24	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> well, you will only sometimes *not* destroy something that is `default(T)` - you can't assume in your destructor that it's not `default(T)`?
16:19:44	clyybber	Araq: Are you ok with me cleaning up injectdestructors a bit while I'm at it?
16:20:44	clyybber	arnetheduck: You put a check in the destructor: `if x == default(T): return`
16:20:51	clyybber	And put it at the top
16:21:07	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> well, then you *are* calling the destructor
16:21:14	clyybber	arnetheduck: I mean, we could also move that check out of the destructor and wrap every destructor call in it
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16:21:22	clyybber	It doesn't really matter
16:21:35	clyybber	arnetheduck: But this way it provides a bit more flexibility
16:21:54	clyybber	And that flexibility can of course also be used to make shit go break
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16:23:03	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> it means that all destructors must always be written in a way that they work with `default(T)`.. for example in `C++` you can enforce in a constructor that an instance never enters particular states like default(T) and it's therefore possible to write "optimal" code for the destructor that assumes that it's never in that state
16:23:40	clyybber	arnetheduck: Ok, does it do that with static analysis?
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16:24:10	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> well, it does that because constructors are the only "legal" way to create instances - in nim, there's no such thing
16:24:39	clyybber	arnetheduck: Yeah. Does CPP do that with static analysis?
16:24:42	clyybber	Or at runtime?
16:25:07	clyybber	Because if it does it at runtime, there probably isn't any performance benefit over Nims design
16:25:26	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> it's part of the language - I wouldn't call it static analysis really, but I guess you could
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16:26:15	clyybber	arnetheduck: Yeah, but how does it guarantee that it will never enter a particular state? With runtime checks I assume
16:27:02	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> no, once a constructor exists, that's the only legal way to construct an object (there's no `default(T)`)
16:28:28	clyybber	Ah, ok.
16:28:42	clyybber	Destructors in nim rely on default(T) though.
16:29:02	clyybber	Since ATM we don't elide them at compile time.
16:29:35	clyybber	But even if we do there will be cases where we can't statically determine wether a variable has been moved, and thus the destructor body skipped
16:31:17	clyybber	And for those cases we have a state which indicates that the object is not really there (just like a nullpointer)
16:31:53	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> sure, so that's something that you need to consider when explaining/documenting what move does - for example by saying that the destructor is *sometimes* elided.. c++ has this quirk too - the language allows the compiler to elide copies in certain cases - more recent versions provide stronger guarantees in some of those cases by requiring an elision
16:32:29	clyybber	Yeah
16:32:30	disruptek	ah, so you already have an `empty(T)` or `nonexistent(T)`.
16:32:52	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> for example, the number of times a copy-constructor will be called might differ between an optimized and a debug build, and that's something you need to be aware of as programmer, or you'll introduce bugs
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16:33:52	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> it seems like for destructors, nim will be similar - sometimes they'll be called and sometimes not
16:34:11	clyybber	Yeah, depending on wether the location got moved
16:34:15	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> so the two-instances intuition is slightly wrong also
16:34:32	disruptek	it may never be empty or nonexistent, too.
16:34:36	FromGitter	<arnetheduck> but it's still more correct than "won't be accessible"
16:34:41	clyybber	bbl
16:39:00	Araq	clyybber: oh yes please, clean it up
16:42:30	disruptek	Zevv: got a link to example where you cannot generate valid ast for a Table type, as per https://github.com/zevv/npeg/issues/9 ?
16:44:42	Araq	"two-instances intuition" is the wrong idea. You teach them how it really is and why, your fellow programmers should be able to cope. ;-)
16:49:52	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I have no idea to do when I get errors like - `first type mismatch at position: 1 required type: ptr obj but expression 'o' is of type: ptr obj`
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16:50:21	Araq	you have 2 different 'obj' types of the same name
16:50:47	Araq	there is logic in the compiler to use moda.obj vs modb.obj then but it doesn't always trigger, unfortunately.
16:51:17	Zevv	disruptek: oh great, yes, Id love some more brains on that. Do you want the short simplified version where I probably ask the wrong question, leave out relevant details and make my self hard to understand? Or would you like the long version, taking a lot of your time, but having a higher chance of making my actual problem clear?
16:51:23	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> okay thanks - actually I just figured out what's causing it - this is interesting
16:51:33	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> so I had an import at the top of my file which wasn't valid
16:51:48	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> but it had the same name as the module from the object I was trying to use
16:51:51	disruptek	Zevv: start with the simple one. :-)
16:52:03	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> so I guess the compiler first complained about them not being the same type of object
16:52:13	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> before it reported that the module I was trying to import, didn't actually exist
16:52:27	disruptek	i'm just wondering, because i have some table types i'm generating, so we're probably traversing the same ground...
16:52:28	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> but thanks for the explanation - that helped me figure it out
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16:55:01	Araq	aq60: cast[ref typeof(x)](x.addr) cannot ever work reliably.
16:55:38	Zevv	disruptek: well, I have this partly working. It seems have had three problems: getAast/quote do builds AST-generator code with knowledge of the underlying objects that is not available in the context that tries to execute that code - for example, for Tables it tries to emit the .data and .counter fields which are internal to the Table implementation.
16:55:51	aq60	Thats my question, what do you use for address?
16:55:59	aq60	Araq
16:56:15	Zevv	Then there was a problem that getAst is not properly generating code for variant types - which it does not have to because const variant types are not supported anyway
16:56:23	Araq	the problem is not the 'addr', the problem is the 'ref', use 'ptr' instead
16:56:35	dom96	Zevv: rayman22201: any plans to continue with the spawn+await efforts?
16:56:39	aq60	I have a C program that has some heavy usage of pointer arithmetics
16:56:43	disruptek	Zevv: got a link to the first part, with the tables and .data?
16:56:45	aq60	Im porting it to Nim
16:56:54	Zevv	third is that the data structure I am trying to ast-ize also holds NimNode code blocks, which does not work
16:57:03	Araq	that works easily, but you need to learn about 'ptr' :P
16:57:24	Zevv	disruptek: I have a branch, one sec. Basically I provided manual newLit() procs for my objects
16:57:48	aq60	I just changed all procs and objects to use ptr, it works with the newruntime too :)
16:58:59	Zevv	disruptek: https://github.com/zevv/npeg/blob/newlit/src/npeg.nim#L43
16:59:13	disruptek	const variant types... this is a concept that is breaking my little brain.
16:59:26	Zevv	dom96: not sure. After the initial first work we kind of gave up because of motivational reasons, but I guess we should be able to pick that up again
16:59:59	rayman22201	@dom96 in theory yes. But I don't have a timeline.
17:00:15	Zevv	disruptek: why? You have type T which is a variant, and you make a const instance of that type?
17:00:37	Zevv	dom96: and I guess we have to make some new plans, because we were not on the right path it seems
17:01:08	disruptek	just seems like an oxymoron.
17:01:29	dom96	Zevv, it would be an awesome feature, happy to help any way I can
17:01:30	Zevv	disruptek: so basically I got my tables exported from the macro, but now I have no clue how to get them back in to generate code from it
17:03:15	Zevv	disruptek: this is what I was trying: https://github.com/zevv/npeg/blob/newlit/src/npeg.nim#L43
17:03:19	Zevv	highly illegal, but it compiles :)
17:06:31	Zevv	I think my whole problem comes down to this: I can use a macro to transform Ast A into Ast X. But what I *want* to do combining multiple AST blocks from multiple macro calls, and generate one single new Ast from that.
17:07:00	Zevv	So Ast A and Ast B, mangle them and create Ast X
17:07:16	disruptek	right, but where does the const part come into play?
17:07:22	disruptek	A and B are const?
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17:07:45	Zevv	macros run at compile time, so I was trying to do Ast A, store it in a const. Then call another macro passing Ast B and the const data, and create Ast X
17:07:55	disruptek	are you trying to A +-> B =-> X?
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17:08:11	Zevv	that kind of sums it up.
17:08:28	Zevv	I'll write a tiny practical example of the real thing.
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17:10:22	disruptek	seems like you want to permute existing ast with another ast as input. i think you are going to need some more data around the ast though; it won't be enough to just guess at the intention, right? maybe the data is as simple as an operation? i guess having it be const is important from an interop perspective.
17:10:28	Zevv	disruptek: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1095365
17:11:18	Zevv	that's npeg syntax: first grammar 'p' defines a rule called 'ip_address'. I want to be able to reuse that thing in another macro invocation at a later time.
17:11:49	disruptek	actually, that seems easier.
17:12:00	Zevv	Another approach I tried was to postpone the actual transformations until the last stage and simply store the original Nim ast of the patterns I would like to later import.
17:12:11	Zevv	But: NimNodes can not be stored in consts.
17:12:35	disruptek	they are kinda a pita, right? like poison.
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17:13:20	Zevv	well, I have this fun thing with macros. It takes a few hours to understand how it all fits together and understand the power. Then you go "Yoooooo this is sick!" and start building great stuff.
17:13:24	Zevv	And then you Hit. A. Wall.
17:13:37	Zevv	And another, and another. And now I'm black and blue and painted myself in a corner
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17:14:22	Zevv	macros seem to be this all-empowering feature, but later I found out they are really ment to do this one thing.
17:14:48	Zevv	And I'm not complaining - they're super useful and make life easier in tons of ways, but I feel I'm tring to bend this into a shep it's not ment to go
17:14:53	Araq	as in: "They can only transform ASTs"
17:14:59	Araq	? :P
17:15:10	Zevv	right. Only one ast to one ast.
17:15:13	*	laaron quit (Remote host closed the connection)
17:15:28	Zevv	which is of course the whole purpose of macros :)
17:15:45	disruptek	the problem, i think, is that we're not used to there being real limitations to our nim code. :-P
17:15:59	Zevv	^
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17:16:28	disruptek	you have to admit, we're kinda asking a lot of the implementation.
17:16:28	Zevv	I basiscally learned all this stuff building Npeg. I made a handful of detours and mis-implementations, and ended up with the current approach which is pretty cool imho.
17:16:40	Zevv	but I've reached a cul-de-sac now.
17:16:40	*	Jesin joined #nim
17:16:48	Zevv	oh definately :)
17:16:55	Zevv	*definitely*
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17:18:00	disruptek	honestly, i think this looks easier than it did. you're just basically chaining with imports, right? can a later import shadow an earlier env?
17:18:33	Zevv	I don't care at this point.
17:19:04	Araq	Zevv: in the longer run, with the new "Packed AST" idea and IC and "semityped ASTs" you won't have these restrictions anymore. maybe
17:19:04	Zevv	My biggest issue now is: where can I store my stuff inbetween macro invocations?
17:19:11	*	laaron quit (Remote host closed the connection)
17:19:21	Araq	in a .compileTime variable. Obviously.
17:19:56	disruptek	would it be easier to change the syntax so you do a withPatterns firstGrammar, secondGrammar: ... and then perform your lookups in some order through those?
17:19:57	Zevv	ok, but is there a real technical limitation at this time, or is it just me not figuring out how to do it?
17:21:25	Zevv	disruptek: that's also possible. The practical thing I'm trying to solve is just a method of reusing grammar rules as libraries. So ideally I could create a nimble package providing an URI parser with all its separate components. If someone wants to parse an uri, the do an import of this package, refer to it in their grammar and *poof* all rules are available.
17:21:26	disruptek	no, i don't see a technical limitation. seems to me you are making this harder than it needs to be, but what do i know? you're the expert!
17:21:38	Zevv	I'm not at all. I'm only learning this stuff :)
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17:23:15	disruptek	well, .compileTime. does work. you could make them procs although they are basically macros, right? or you can just operate on the outputs as straight data (albeit, compiletime ast).
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17:25:24	Zevv	well, what do you know. .compileTime. variables.
17:25:57	Zevv	I never realized those existed explicitly - I only used compileTime on procs
17:26:44	disruptek	so your grammar is a table of string, patt, and patt is a seq of instructions. seems like you only need to encode the order in which you perform grammar lookup.
17:27:42	Zevv	complicating factor is that instructions are variants (but I can easily drop that), and can also contain NimNodes which hold nim code
17:28:29	disruptek	i would just caution you to use as little compiletime as possible, as i've found it's a limiting poison. better off using it as rarely as you can, in my limited experience.
17:28:59	Zevv	would it not be easier if I were able to simply store the whole NimNode AST of a macro invocation somewhere, and pass that to another macro somehow?
17:29:03	disruptek	i don't think that's a complication; does it limit you somehow?
17:29:51	Zevv	well, it did when I tried to store my grammar in a const. But with ct vars that is probably not an issue
17:30:02	Zevv	going consts is probably my big mistake
17:30:05	disruptek	i don't think you can make the same assumptions about input once you start saying, "look, i will consume any valid nim ast that you want to give me."
17:30:22	disruptek	fact is, you only care about implementations of your (hopefully more limited) "Grammar" type.
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17:31:04	Zevv	well, this gramamar can *contain* any valid nim ast - which is the embedded nim code
17:31:21	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> aq60: pointer arithmetic in Nim isn't hard - I do it in my game code in some places
17:31:25	disruptek	yeah, but that's very different. you can make assumptions about what it contains because it's your code that's generating it.
17:31:31	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> there's a forum thread that has a bunch of templates for doing exactly this
17:31:46	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> actually - here: https://gist.github.com/oltolm/1738289b5ac866ec6a7e4ef20095178e
17:31:47	Zevv	disruptek: nope, its user supplied code.
17:31:50	disruptek	i mean, maybe you *want* to be able to compose npeg with any valid nim ast. i dunno.
17:32:20	Zevv	I thought of mitigating this by storing the embeddded code simply as text and parse it again later
17:32:26	disruptek	i thought the only input you want to consume is output from your `grammar:`, no?
17:33:22	Zevv	yes, but grammar: can in real life contain snippets of nim code.
17:33:24	disruptek	i would start with the simplest model that captures the semantics you want. i don't think that's raw and arbitrary nim ast.
17:33:59	disruptek	that's fine; it's not that you cannot support nim ast, it's that it will be wrapper and/or validated and/or generated by your own code, so you can make assumptions about how it will behave.
17:34:08	disruptek	s/wrapper/wrapped/
17:34:08	Zevv	true
17:34:37	disruptek	this is a neat library, thanks for the labor you've put in.
17:35:43	Zevv	it's *almost* finished :)
17:36:41	disruptek	well, i wouldn't be frustrated by an inability to craft what you think will be the last implementation -- the *next* implementation is good enough for now. ;-)
17:38:10	Zevv	oh very true. And it is already very usable as is, I use it a lot to create all kinds of ad-hoc parser scripts for log files or collecting data for which I ussually sed/awk/python/perl my way around.
17:38:37	Zevv	and it is used in production at one of my customers for some small things
17:39:28	Zevv	And I personally like the way how it maps on ABFN, for example https://github.com/zevv/npeg/blob/master/tests/examples.nim#L252 is almost literally the URI spec from the RFC
17:39:33	disruptek	yeah, i'm using it. it's not a complex use-case, but it buys me something significant, so i'm very happy.
17:39:49	Zevv	\o/
17:40:27	disruptek	yeah, that's awesome. 👍
17:42:11	FromGitter	<Vindaar> Zevv: you might have realized that now, but for reference this works: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1Rk7
17:43:30	Zevv	yes, I was just trying similar things, although I still have issues grokking all the semantics
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17:45:49	Zevv	can I create a macro that does nothing but returning a passed code block's NimNode AST so I can store that in a compiletime var?
17:46:25	Zevv	(given that this Ast is *not* valid Nim program code!)
17:46:37	Zevv	so I can't embed it into an anonymous proc, or something like that
17:46:41	disruptek	isn't that what `quote do` does?
17:46:54	Zevv	that is what I thought as well
17:47:02	Zevv	but then Nim tries to interpretet the block somehow as Nim code
17:47:33	disruptek	it just parses it; it doesn't invoke it.
17:47:50	Zevv	it does semchecks it seems: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1Rka
17:47:51	disruptek	also, it helpfully elides comments. 🙄
17:48:25	disruptek	well, that's not nim.
17:48:50	Zevv	no it is not, but it is representable in Nim AST, right
17:49:14	disruptek	yes, but it's kinda a big ask to expect `quote do` to successfully parse a grammar it doesn't know, right?
17:49:37	Zevv	why? The nim compiler parsed it into a nimnode tree already?
17:52:08	FromGitter	<Vindaar> all fine: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1Rkb
17:52:38	Zevv	what?!
17:53:08	disruptek	do we need to quote it again?
17:53:59	FromGitter	<Vindaar> nah, sorry. that was copy & paste
17:54:14	disruptek	good.
17:54:35	Zevv	pff i was mixing up two things, messing up
17:54:41	FromGitter	<Vindaar> i.e. this is fine https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1Rkk
17:54:55	disruptek	yep.
17:54:58	Zevv	I partly blame my kids to have stolen my laptop so im typing on my phone :/
17:55:23	Zevv	well vindaar, that should definitely get me going. the compiletime var was my whole problem
17:56:04	disruptek	yeah, i think you're much closer to making this work than you think. the question is just how you want to handle symbol resolution.
17:56:16	Zevv	this should work for me. I dont mind having one global pool for storing all grammars in, I can just make my own namespaces from there.
17:57:33	disruptek	looking forward to it!
17:57:33	Zevv	If I store grammars as nim ast and only transform to a parser at the last moment, I should be able to travers the global pool to find nimnodes defining the referenced rules, and just inject those nimnodes into the final grammar nimnode ast before doing the transformation
17:58:00	Zevv	great, thanks once more for hearing me ramble folks, always a pleasure!
17:58:19	disruptek	oh, so you won't even have `import` statements or any context passed by the user?
17:58:41	Zevv	thats details
17:59:22	Zevv	I probably want to do some kind of nested name spacing, but i guess one level would be enough. So if you import "uri" you just get all rules from the uri grammar available in your peg
17:59:43	Zevv	if i would later want to be more fine grained, that should be trivial
18:02:22	FromGitter	<Vindaar> hehe, good to hear. hope it works out :)
18:02:43	disruptek	your chroma pr looks pretty good, btw, vindaar.
18:05:37	FromGitter	<Vindaar> thanks! :)
18:06:27	FromGitter	<Vindaar> I needed HCL support to reproduce the ggplot2 colors :D
18:08:10	dom96	Anyone else wishes `echo` followed `print`'s suit and added spaces in between arguments implicitly?
18:08:20	disruptek	ah, always funny to see a pr that seems to quadruple the functionality of a lib. ;-)
18:09:00	shashlick	It does bother me that `echo a, b` doesn't add spaces
18:09:09	disruptek	dom96: yes. but, i think i'd be satisfied if only the logging templates did that. it really bothers me there.
18:09:39	Zevv	vindaar: what exactly causes the different behaviour between your and my macro?
18:09:53	Zevv	Min returns the output of quote do, but yours returns the output of quote do
18:10:01	FromGitter	<mratsim> @Zevv I've stressed the {.compileTime.} pragma in all kind of ways while writing a compiler in Nim macros. It works fine.
18:10:19	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Exercises on Exercism are labeled badly, all side ones but one are marked as EASY, i did reversing a string yesterday, took me an hour because im a slow learner, but it was easy like it was labeled. Today i went solving a "EASY" Run Length Encoder + Decoder(im close to finishing it now), and i spent a LOT more time on it and wrote a lot more code for it, it's definitely labeled wrong.
18:10:19	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie>
18:10:19	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> How do i contact the right person to change this ?
18:10:30	Zevv	mratsim: cool, thanks
18:10:51	FromGitter	<mratsim> The main issue to be aware of is to not do in-place modification but assign the complete modified object
18:11:09	FromGitter	<mratsim> There are 2 bugs from the past 3 weeks on that
18:11:19	Zevv	hmm but could I have a seq ct var and add elements to it?
18:11:30	Zevv	or should I replace it with a new copy of a seq?
18:15:36	Araq	no, you need to add
18:15:46	Araq	and IC kinda relies on it, read the RFC... :P
18:16:07	FromGitter	<Vindaar> zevv: sorry, was afk. The problem with your code was simply that you never assigned to `myNode`
18:16:53	Zevv	yeah I was messing up, sorry. I have my computer back, should be better now :)
18:16:56	*	joki1337 quit ()
18:18:24	FromGitter	<Vindaar> nothing to apologize for ;)
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18:21:13	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> without any kind of shadow shader:
18:21:20	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> (https://files.gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim/o7Mv/image.png)
18:22:04	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> it's actually a pleasant surprise that this renders - because I hadn't tried before
18:22:13	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I had just been using a map with all flat tiles
18:22:58	*	nif quit (Client Quit)
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18:23:48	Zevv	arghh. I just implemented peg libraries with 5 lines of code
18:38:33	Zevv	I'm too old to have my pride hurt. But it hurts my soul :(
18:39:15	FromGitter	<Vindaar> it just means it's an /elegant/ feature :) plus it's easy to maintain, hehe
18:39:22	Zevv	right :)
18:39:28	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> Zevv: are you into just PEGs or grammars in general?
18:39:45	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> because I built something from this whitepaper a few years ago -
18:39:51	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ab05/4224e6c43f96f06ece41f336b7a5a070a4e3.pdf
18:39:52	Zevv	So it was completely trivial. conclusion: my mistake was that I was trying to store intermediate grammars in consts, but needed ct vars
18:40:33	Zevv	zacharycarter: I miss any formal education on this stuff, but I have always been intrigued by grammars and parsers
18:40:50	Zevv	wow that's cool :)
18:41:31	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> yeah - they can be pretty powerful in the procgen world
18:41:31	Zevv	I saw a cool dungeon gen on HN the other day, let me look that up
18:41:50	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I think I'm going to try to incorporate procgen elements into my RTS
18:42:10	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> so I might use some sort of grammar for rules around different types of scenarios
18:42:39	Zevv	sounds like a fun project you're doing there :)
18:42:57	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> well - I have a game designer from work working with me on the concept for the game
18:43:14	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> we want to blend MOBA and RTS - so we're thinking about a RTS where the macro is much simpler but the micro is more complex]
18:43:20	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> and also oriented towards team play
18:43:41	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> you won't have to produce units - they'll be auto-produced but you still need to build buildings
18:43:51	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> like red alert 3 where that didn't work ?
18:44:09	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I'm not making red alert 3
18:44:26	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> just don't try giving EVERY unit a special ability
18:44:35	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> and fyi red alert 3 has 9/10 rating on steam
18:44:51	FromDiscord_	<Shield> good to see somebody working on an rts, I have a lot of questions about those
18:45:01	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> yeh.... that's why NOBODY cares about it and everybody prefers red alert 2
18:45:03	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> but no - you'll mostly control your hero character
18:45:09	krux02	auto production of units reminds of of the game: Z
18:45:32	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> the auto generated forces will be controlled by a dumb AI
18:45:35	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> also wehich rating, meta or users ? recent or overall ?
18:45:43	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I don't know - I just looked at google
18:45:53	krux02	but that was no buildings, just capturing of zones. The buildings the captured zones belong to you, and the more zones you have the faster you produce units.
18:46:05	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> but you'll build buildings to upgrade units as well as give your hero powers
18:46:10	Zevv	zacharycarter: do you have any concept art?
18:46:13	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> and if someone destroys a building - your hero loses that power
18:46:30	krux02	That game was a fast paced RTS, if you didn't play offensive and captured all sones you could as fast as possible you loose.
18:46:42	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> nah - I don't have any artist friends that I've convinced to work on the game yet with us, I want to get further along in developing the game before I try to recruit some
18:46:51	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> but it's good that I work at a game company now - it should be much easier :(
18:46:53	Zevv	:)
18:46:54	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> err :)
18:47:18	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> also - we want to have synergies between heroes and make hero roster construction important
18:47:27	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> but ultimately - every hero will be able to choose what skills they take
18:47:30	krux02	well, what I know about game companies is that you probably do so much crush that you have 0 time left for your own project.
18:47:33	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I'm not having some artist create 1000 hero models
18:47:42	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> not in Finland :)
18:47:48	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> pretty strict labor laws here
18:47:57	krux02	cool
18:48:13	krux02	we have labor laws as well here in Germany.
18:48:20	FromDiscord_	<Shield> how do you handle pathfinding? are you using simple A* or flow field? how does you do unit positioning and obstacle avoidance? what's your multithreading model? how do you handle networking?
18:48:59	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I haven't gotten that far but I'll probably do some sort of navigation grid - I'm sure A* will be a part of it as well as djikstra
18:49:12	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I don't do multithreading
18:49:34	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I don't do networking (yet) - I'm not sure what I'm going to do there, I haven't thought about it enough yet
18:49:55	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> but I'll be reading a lot of gafferon games
18:50:01	FromDiscord_	<Shield> out of all those things, networking feels the hardest, most rts use simulation with fixed time steps and other black magic that requires a whole change of the structure, there's also problems with float point accuracy...etc
18:50:17	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> yeah
18:50:33	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> well - I haven't worked on the simulation part of the game much yet
18:50:38	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I'm focusing on map generation / editing first
18:51:10	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> since that's pretty unlikely to need to need changes once it's implemented
18:51:27	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> also I need to work on skeletal animation and sounds - lots of plumbing work basically
18:52:05	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I'll probably try and use soloud for audio
18:52:06	FromDiscord_	<Shield> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bovlsENv1g4
18:52:55	FromDiscord_	<Shield> I honestly don't know how to handle different unit size with A*
18:53:00	FromDiscord_	<tomku> re: crunch in game dev - varies wildly between companies
18:53:43	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> well - I don't think you do unless you have include it as some sort of heuristic and even then it's not likely to produce reliable results
18:53:45	krux02	tomku: If you go AAA in the US, then crunch is basically everywhere.
18:53:48	FromDiscord_	<tomku> game i'm working on enters steam early access in a month and I'm already preparing for a grind
18:54:04	FromDiscord_	<tomku> but that's expected
18:54:06	FromDiscord_	<Shield> the problem with multiplayer rts is that the simulation needs to be deterministic, if your army movement depends on how fast your machine are, it will be bad
18:54:11	krux02	tomku: what game are you working on?
18:54:13	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I've been in Finland at Wargaming since May - and I've had two weeks where I felt like I wasn't getting enough sleep
18:54:27	FromDiscord_	<tomku> @krux02: last oasis
18:54:32	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> Shield: yup - that's why most games used deterministic lockstep
18:54:38	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> tomku: want to hook me up with a key :P
18:54:38	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> ?
18:54:43	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I'm in your discord
18:55:20	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I'm just joking btw - I'm sure there are fans more deserving of a key than I am
18:55:22	FromDiscord_	<tomku> i know we entered new beta last week, did you sign up?
18:55:22	krux02	I am just watching the trailler now, last oasis does look interesting
18:55:32	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I don't think so - I'll go do that
18:55:54	FromDiscord_	<tomku> but that's boring large project in UE4, let's talk nim stuff
18:56:24	clyybber	nim in ue4 :p
18:56:29	krux02	looks like the structures from Theo Jansen
18:56:47	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> kind of sad the Nim UE4 stuff died
18:56:55	clyybber	oh there was something?
18:56:59	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> yeah
18:57:06	clyybber	Shouldn't be too hard to revive it, right?
18:57:06	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> https://github.com/pragmagic/nimue4
18:57:24	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I just don't want to use UE4 - but I think there were limitations that made the author want to switch to godot
18:57:28	FromDiscord_	<Shield> a lot of nim stuff dies and language changes don't help
18:57:36	clyybber	Ah, endragor also did the godot bindings
18:57:55	FromDiscord_	<tomku> i got godot-nim to work with latest nim, looks pretty cool
18:58:03	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I'm very meh about godot
18:58:08	clyybber	tomku: Do you have your fork up?
18:58:20	clyybber	zacharycarter: I guess its because of the OO?
18:58:34	clyybber	Because thats the only thing that really bothers me about godot
18:58:34	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> clyybber: you mean the UE4 limitations wiith Nim?
18:58:38	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> oh
18:58:38	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> godot
18:58:42	clyybber	Yeah
18:58:46	FromDiscord_	<tomku> clybber: i used other people forks for both the bindings and the sutb
18:58:54	clyybber	tomku: Ah, ok
18:59:03	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> there are several things that bother me about it, but OO i sone
18:59:12	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> also - I'm still waiting for a 3d game built with godot to come out
18:59:16	FromDiscord_	<tomku> the latest opened issue on github has all the info
18:59:37	clyybber	zacharycarter: I made a small online shooter with my friends
18:59:46	krux02	@tomku: do you give credit to Theo Jansen in the game?
18:59:49	clyybber	the online rpc interface is really cool
18:59:56	FromDiscord_	<Shield> there is a 3d game out, but it's nothing fancy
19:00:24	clyybber	I couldn't figure out any way on how to do reverse kinematics though
19:00:25	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I'd rather just use Unity over Godot
19:00:32	FromGitter	<Varriount> Does anyone have a more thorough explanation of what this phrase means in Nim's destructors plan: "Objects that contain pointers that point to the same object are not supported by Nim's model. Otherwise swapped objects would end up in an inconsistent stat"?
19:00:32	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> if I was going to use a pre-made engine
19:00:57	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> making a game engine these days is pretty simple though
19:01:08	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> it's mostly just cobbling together libraries to use to create different subsystems
19:01:09	FromDiscord_	<tomku> krux02: you'd better off asking on the official discord, but im pretty sure we do acknowledge the inspiration
19:01:09	clyybber	Varriount: It means an object P containing and pointer to itself is not supported
19:01:48	clyybber	zacharycarter: Yeah, I also like to make my own engine, mainly because I don't need a fancy editor for proc gen
19:01:51	krux02	tomku: If they have an IRC bridge, then I might do that :P
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19:01:59	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> editors are super annoying
19:02:20	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> my #1 main beef with UE4 / Unity / Godot - is having to learn how to use them
19:02:25	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> it's super annoying
19:02:33	krux02	Well, I like editors, but they must be specialized for the game.
19:02:40	FromDiscord_	<tomku> clyybber: well I guess I'm your IRC bridge in a sense, then 😉
19:02:42	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> yes - like the map editor I'm buidling
19:03:01	FromDiscord_	<tomku> any nim exercism mentors around
19:03:04	FromDiscord_	<tomku> ?
19:03:05	FromDiscord_	<Shield> lol I've wasted more than a week trying to figure out IK with constraints but apparently they're expensive and most engines do 2 bones IK with either positive or negative rotation only
19:03:13	clyybber	tomku: Huh, wdym?
19:03:25	krux02	I never had fun in general purpose game editors, but building maps in Age of Empires 1 was very fun. Also making games for Jetpack.
19:03:35	krux02	making levels for Jetpack
19:03:55	clyybber	krux02: You came from scala right?
19:04:28	clyybber	Do you know if theres an up to date way to generate the equivalent of a public static field?
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19:05:23	clyybber	I found a commit that introduced @static in 2012, but it seems that got reverted
19:05:34	FromDiscord_	<tomku> @clyybber sorry, was meant to tag krux02
19:05:43	clyybber	tomku: Ah, ok :D
19:06:24	krux02	clyybber: public static does not exist in scala, you have to put the things in the companion object.
19:06:41	krux02	The companion object is like if you put values to the type
19:06:48	krux02	you can do something like that in nim as well
19:07:24	sschwarzer	Hi everyone. I have my Nim files in a `src` subdirectory and a `config.nims` in the project directory (the parent directory of `src`). By default, when compiling my main file under `src/vppdiff.nim`, the binary is placed there as well. How can I put the binary in the project directory? I tried `--outdir:..` in the `config.nims` file, but this gives me `Error: undeclared identifier: ':..'`
19:07:29	krux02	template typeProperty(_: typedesc[MyObjectType]): string = "MyValue"
19:07:40	clyybber	krux02: I know, sadly I have an annotation that requires a static field. https://github.com/scala/scala/pull/894 this one implemented it.
19:08:09	clyybber	For know I'm just resorting to a seperate java file and import that from scala
19:08:20	sschwarzer	Or is it not reocmmended to put the binaries in the project directory?
19:10:38	krux02	clyyber, well this is the Nim chat. I could help you to bring stuff from scala over to Nim, but I don't think that I can help you in scala. The scala thet I worked in was Scala 2.7 2.8 2.9 that think you are reffering to came into scala when I already moved on.
19:12:16	krux02	but I think scala java interop is really great on the scala side of things, so putting things as a java file and then just use it is a good thing.
19:12:19	clyybber	Ah, ok. Thank you anyways :)
19:12:30	clyybber	krux02: Yeah thats really cool
19:13:25	krux02	I think you shouldn't have cycling java scala dependencies though. I don't know if they support it, but it sounds to be like you are begging for something to break.
19:18:31	krux02	sschwarzer, how do you call the compiler?
19:19:10	sschwarzer	krux02: nim c src/vppdiff.nim
19:19:42	sschwarzer	I can compile if I leave out the `outdir` option, but then I get the binary in the `src` folder.
19:19:53	krux02	well you can move the binary with ``mv``
19:19:59	krux02	(bash command)
19:20:35	krux02	that is how the nim compiler is build as well. It is build in the source directory, and then when everything goes well, it is put in the bin folder, but only then.
19:20:52	krux02	sschwarzer, yes
19:21:07	sschwarzer	krux02: I was hoping to have `nim` doing this after compiling. Or can I put the `mv` somehow in `config.nims`?
19:21:08	krux02	leave out the output opiton, and then simply move the file. THat is how I would do it.
19:21:21	krux02	nope you can't
19:21:29	krux02	if you use nimble, maybe you can.
19:21:54	krux02	nimble as a task system. there you can specify tasts to do after the build has been completed.
19:22:05	sschwarzer	krux02: With `bin` folder, you mean the folder where the binary is placed, although this happens to be the source folder as well? (just asking for clarification)
19:22:40	krux02	with bin bin folder I mean a folder where you would like the binary to be placed.
19:22:53	krux02	but maybe it is better if you use nimble with default settings.
19:23:09	sschwarzer	krux02: I'll look into Nimble at some later time, I guess. I'm still not very acquainted with the language (although I like it :) )
19:23:10	krux02	build your project with nimble. then call nimble install and see what happens
19:23:38	sschwarzer	krux02: Ok, so I understood you regarding the "bin folder"
19:23:45	krux02	nimble puts links to executables that you build into $HOME/.nimble/bin
19:24:19	krux02	with bin folder I mean the folder where you eventuall want to have the binary.
19:24:26	krux02	the executable.
19:24:40	krux02	it doesn't need to be called bin though. You can call it whatever you want.
19:24:55	sschwarzer	krux02: I guess I'll do this later (like in days or weeks later :) ). For now, for development, it's good enough for me to have the binary in the `src` folder. I was just wondering if I could place it in the parent dir.
19:25:22	sschwarzer	I mean place it there easily.
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19:28:14	sschwarzer	krux02: Thanks anyway :)
19:28:31	krux02	np
19:28:39	sschwarzer	Yes, I'll look into Nimble at some point. :-)
19:31:17	Araq	--outdir: ".." ?
19:31:40	Araq	I mean, it's not like you can forget about Nim's syntax in a *Nim*script config file, duh.
19:33:39	sschwarzer	Araq: Hi, welcome back :)
19:34:16	sschwarzer	Araq: `--outdir: ".."` in the `config.nims` file creates a folder `".."` and puts the binary there :-D
19:34:55	Araq	switch("outdir", "..") # maybe like this then
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19:36:54	sschwarzer	Araq: no, doesn't work ...
19:36:56	sschwarzer	/usr/bin/ld: cannot open output file /home/schwa/sd/nim/vppdiff: Is a directory
19:36:56	sschwarzer	collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
19:36:57	sschwarzer	Error: execution of an external program failed: 'gcc
19:37:00	sschwarzer	...
19:37:04	Araq	clyybber: in the new spec f_sink(g()) is converted to f_sink(g())
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19:37:54	Araq	does that make sense? no need to use a temporary since sink parameters are destroyed in 'f' and there is no location to unset for 'g()'
19:38:57	FromGitter	<Vindaar> sschwarzer: that error happens, because the nim file you compile is called "vppdiff.nim" and the directory it is in "vppdiff". So gcc crashes when trying to create a binary in a directory, with a folder named "vppdiff"
19:41:23	sschwarzer	Vindaar: Ok, that makes sense. But what I wanted is to put the binary (named `vppdiff`) in the current directory (called `vppdiff`, but shouldn't matter), parallel to the `src` directory. So the path of the binary would be `sd/nim/vppdiff/vppdiff`.
19:42:45	FromGitter	<Vindaar> then either define `--outdir:"."` (not sure if that works), or simply compile with `nim c --out:vppdiff src/vppdiff`
19:42:46	sschwarzer	Vindaar: the Nim file is `sd/nim/vppdiff/src/vppdiff.nim`
19:44:26	sschwarzer	Vindaar: The combination of Araq's tip and yours worked: `switch("outdir", ".")`
19:44:33	sschwarzer	Thanks for your help!
19:45:09	FromGitter	<Vindaar> no worries!
19:45:12	sschwarzer	I had tried `..` instead of `.` because I thought, the directory should be relative to the source file.
19:45:41	clyybber	Araq: Yeah, makes sense
19:46:10	Araq	ok, then the spec is almost ready
19:46:22	clyybber	Nice, do you have it up somewhere?
19:46:25	Araq	it's not much more complex than before
19:46:31	Araq	just different.
19:46:32	sschwarzer	For the record, I also changed `--threads:on` to `switch("threads", "on")` for consistency
19:48:47	sschwarzer	So the information about using `--option...` as a convenience for `switch(...)` potentially is somewhat confusing. I read this here: https://nim-lang.org/docs/nims.html , section "NimScript as a configuration file"
19:49:09	sschwarzer	I mean I read there about the "convenience"
19:50:04	clyybber	Araq: Did you incorporate that =sink will have no self-assign check and also no =destroy call?
19:50:27	Araq	the =destroy call is still in there
19:50:48	Araq	and I don't intend to change it for v1
19:50:50	clyybber	Ok
19:51:04	sschwarzer	I had seen `--threads:on` in some `config.nims` somewhere and had wrongly assumed that `--outdir:.` would work as well.
19:51:17	clyybber	Its fine I guess. Perhaps there are cases where some controle over that `=destroy` call is wanted
19:57:31	Araq	clyybber: it's here https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/doc/destructors.rst
19:57:59	Araq	and I'll remove the wiki page
19:58:41	Araq	and if you enjoy it, mark in the source code the rewrite rules
20:03:43	clyybber	Araq: Cool, btw can I remove this branch: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/compiler/injectdestructors.nim#L220 or does it contain something for the future?
20:04:29	Araq	fine with me
20:05:27	Araq	so ... what was the bug?
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20:09:10	sschwarzer	I just found out that `xmltree.items` doesn't work recursively ;-)
20:10:25	sschwarzer	So there doesn't seem to be a way to recurse over all nodes if I don't care about the name (or rather only in the loop body). `xmltree` documentation is here: https://nim-lang.github.io/Nim/xmltree.html
20:11:09	sschwarzer	But if I didn't overlook something, I can write the recursion myself as in `findAll`, but without the tag comparison.
20:13:51	disruptek	sschwarzer: sure.
20:14:19	sschwarzer	I think the documentation for `items` and `mitems` is a bit vague here ("Iterates over any child of n.")
20:14:32	clyybber	Araq: p() didn't have a case for nkBracket
20:15:13	disruptek	sschwarzer: convention is that `items` yields immutable values while `mitems` values are mutable.
20:16:09	sschwarzer	disruptek: That's not my point. :) My point is that I thought that `items` and `mitems` both recurse down into the tree, but they don't. :)
20:16:16	Araq	clyybber: there is some unhealthy code duplication going on here
20:16:42	disruptek	i agree it should be improved. easy enough to submit a pr via github! :-)
20:17:00	clyybber	Araq: Yeah, the 3 way mutual recursion is really something rare
20:17:09	clyybber	s/rare/special
20:17:13	sschwarzer	disruptek: a PR for the documentation or a PR for improved code? :-)
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20:17:55	sschwarzer	disruptek: Of course, for the code change we would probably need a flag (?) to remain backward-compatible?
20:18:09	disruptek	sschwarzer: for the docs, at a minimum (it can be done via the web ui). i am wondering if we don't already have a treewalking generic that we could reference (or repurpose) for this. we have several tree types in stdlib...
20:18:28	disruptek	i wouldn't change the code; it's too breaky.
20:19:19	sschwarzer	disruptek: It would be really helpful if this (recursing) would be possible without writing the recursion yourself. Of course it's easy, but my intuition is that this should be supported by the standard library.
20:19:36	disruptek	should probably just come up with a simple api for walk() and then add it to xml, json, critbits, etc.
20:20:22	disruptek	iirc, we have a walk() for filesystem objects; maybe you can replicate that api for consistency?
20:20:31	sschwarzer	disruptek: Sounds good, at least for the moment. Also I agree it's nice if different tree-like structures behave consistently.
20:21:14	sschwarzer	By the way, I'm starting to lose track of the things I want to contribute to Nim. :-D
20:21:18	disruptek	gotta put some meat on the bone to make a stdlib patch worthwhile. ;-)
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20:22:19	sschwarzer	disruptek: Do you mean me or you here?
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20:23:30	disruptek	i can do it if you don't wanna, but, maybe run it up the flagpool and see who salutes. i think it should be accepted pretty readily if it touches 3+ modules.
20:24:40	clyybber	Araq: I have the PR up, looking at the spec now.
20:25:42	sschwarzer	disruptek: I would like to, but it's unrealistic for me to get this done anytime soon. :-( I have another (own) open source project to take care of, I need to prepare a talk for PyCon DE and I'm still in the beginnings of working with Nim.
20:26:33	disruptek	make an issue and if people want it, i will author the pr. fair? ;-)
20:26:41	sschwarzer	disruptek: Regarding Nim improvements, my first goal is to make sure that `osproc.waitForExit` doesn't deadlock.
20:27:31	sschwarzer	disruptek: Yes, sounds fair. I hope I'll be able to do it tomorrow. I want to go to bed now, and I'm traveling tomorrow.
20:27:48	disruptek	aight, i will keep an eye out. gn
20:27:54	clyybber	gn8
20:28:00	sschwarzer	disruptek: thanks! :)
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20:30:01	clyybber	Araq: That branch I removed is a duplicate
20:30:09	Araq	how so?
20:30:21	clyybber	A few lines above it is repeated
20:30:31	clyybber	So it is dead duplicated code.
20:30:51	Araq	ah indeed
20:31:03	Araq	ok then
20:31:50	clyybber	Ah, maybe I should add a test case
20:31:54	Araq	we don't implement (self-assignment-removal) yet, but there is an open issue for it :P
20:33:13	Araq	btw if you fear Nim is turning into C++, all it takes is to look at https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/lifetime#Access_outside_of_lifetime
20:33:28	Araq	and we're really far, far away from this complexity :P
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20:47:02	clyybber	Ugh, looks like the fix is causing leaks in other tests..
20:49:21	Araq	er, why not run 'tt destructor' on your local machine?
20:49:44	Araq	I can't develop without it, feedback cycle via the CIs is much too slow
20:50:02	clyybber	Araq: I just did it. Thats how I figured it out
20:50:11	Araq	ah ok
20:50:17	clyybber	But I used ./koch test c destructor, which was a mistake
20:50:30	clyybber	since that takes ages
20:50:53	clyybber	would be cool if we could make the tester use nim_temp
20:54:26	clyybber	Araq: Is nkBracket always an array constructor?
20:54:44	Araq	yes.
20:55:00	Araq	you can run testament/tester --nimexe:nim_temp cat destructor
20:55:09	Araq	or something along these lines
20:55:11	clyybber	Ah, thanks
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21:00:51	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Why does Nim in VS Code only shows procedures imported from a module after i use them once ? Is it because once i use a proc it does a hidden import on it or... ? I don't get autocomplete the first time.
21:01:17	*	HP-YC9 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
21:01:30	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Like i import strutils, call variable.isAlphaAscii(), no autocomplete, only the second time
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21:02:18	Araq	change the plugin setup
21:02:22	Araq	good night.
21:02:28	clyybber	gn8
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21:15:18	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> In the preference i see nothing of the sorts that helps with imports... idk
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21:24:01	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> I don't understand why Case statement doesn't work this way:
21:24:01	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1Rlq
21:26:17	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Thought maybe this would work: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1Rls
21:26:18	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> I don't get it.
21:29:15	solitudesf	thats not whatr case statement does. you're supposed to use plain ifs for that
21:29:57	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Okay, so what is the purpose of case then ?
21:30:19	solitudesf	to perform action based on a variable's value?
21:31:18	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> isn't that what im trying to do with it ? INstead of writing a bunch of IF statements i thought a single case with the same number of OFs would do the trick. Idk
21:32:46	solitudesf	no, you're not matching on values
21:33:02	solitudesf	you just check arbitrary conditions, that what if does
21:33:35	solitudesf	thats how it works in every language, you can read any programming manual
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21:34:16	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Woops, i guess my memory is foggy on that, my bad xD, it's been years since i coded for a week straight
21:36:01	disruptek	your if/else ladder is testing for boolean results of expressions while your case is testing for identity between the case X variable and the of Y, Y, Y constants.
21:36:49	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Yeah, i get that now.
21:37:26	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Im rushing trough things trying to get things done, and fail to understand some things.
21:38:49	disruptek	case statements are great because they can help prevent oversight when conditions change.
21:39:22	disruptek	it's all part of the correct-by-construction mantra.
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22:13:31	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Do you guys find any of the exercises on Exercism Nim Track difficult or time consuming ?
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22:34:44	FromGitter	<Varriount> Anyone read any interesting CS papers recently?
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23:43:55	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Man i suck, look how long of a code i wrote vs what someone else wrote xD...
23:43:55	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> MINE: https://exercism.io/my/solutions/e1e97e1bb04e40c7947f65608e1535ef
23:43:55	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Someone else's: https://exercism.io/tracks/nim/exercises/run-length-encoding/solutions/cf672220e5684ef78a5392cf720ba824
23:45:38	FromDiscord_	<Kiloneie> Sorry you can't see mine, here: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1Rmk