<<12-02-2013>>

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00:00:47	Araq	good night
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15:35:48	gour	tutorial-2: "There is a syntactic sugar for calling routines:" maybe it's better to s/routines/methods ?
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17:59:42	reactormonk	gour, well, we have procs and methods - not sure what the umbrella term is
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19:49:35	apotheon	reactormonk: What's the definition of a Nimrod proc?
19:53:56	Araq	apotheon: a proc is a "procedure"
19:54:21	Araq	aka "function"
19:55:11	apotheon	righto
19:55:20	apotheon	The term "proc" gets used differently elsewhere.
19:55:42	apotheon	In Ruby, for instance, it basically refers to a callback or closure wrapped in an object interface.
19:55:57	apotheon	. . . so I wasn't sure what you meant here.
19:56:28	Araq	I wanted to have "func" for functions, e.g. procedures without side effects
19:56:39	apotheon	Do Nimrod procs always evaluate to a return value, or can they be purely side-effect tools?
19:56:52	Araq	the later
19:57:22	apotheon	They can evaluate to a return value, though, I'd guess.
19:58:07	apotheon	How strict are you with funcs not having side effects? Can they print to stdout?
19:59:50	Araq	procs can do everything until you start using Nimrod's effect system
20:00:06	Araq	proc p(): int {.noSideEffect.} = 12
20:00:55	Araq	if you use 'noSideEffect' there is still 'debugEcho' for debugging
20:01:15	Araq	similar to haskell's UnsafeIO
20:01:15	apotheon	interesting
20:01:32	apotheon	I'll take your word for it. I actually know Nimrod better than Haskell at this point.
20:07:50	reactormonk	Araq, so func => proc {.noSideEffect.} ?
20:08:21	Araq	reactormonk: that was the plan but there is no "func" keyword in nimrod
20:08:32	reactormonk	Araq, didn't you reserve it?
20:08:35	Araq	nope
20:08:48	reactormonk	Araq, damn. Deprecate it?
20:09:37	Araq	why? it is that cute and sexy?
20:09:57	reactormonk	Araq, huh? You intended to use func.
20:10:49	Araq	but I consider it useless now that we got a more finely granular effect system
20:11:25	reactormonk	so we're stuck with proc ^^
20:11:42	Araq	yes, we're "stuck"
20:12:11	reactormonk	Does it matter?
20:12:22	Araq	not to me
20:12:29	Araq	otherwise I would take "func"
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21:03:21	gour	func could still be nice syntactic sugar
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21:37:37	gradha	will nimrod convert an openarray or varargs into an array? any runtime penalizations?
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21:39:10	gradha	I guess it's not possible, since the array needs to know the size in advance
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21:40:46	Araq	gradha: yes
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21:59:06	apotheon	Araq: It's pre-1.0 software. You're allowed to make backward compatibility breaking changes.
21:59:25	apotheon	I'm fine with proc as the keyword, though.
21:59:37	gradha	maybe nimrod should rename proc to some character which requires unicode and by annoying people gain popularity with respect to go and others
21:59:56	gradha	after many blogs are really hate venting podiums
22:00:12	gradha	s/after/after all/
22:00:45	gradha	btw, any annoying thing in rust?
22:01:14	Araq	ha, and I thought Nimrod is already insulting enough
22:01:32	reactormonk	Araq, we could use →
22:01:33	apotheon	gradha: yes
22:01:35	Araq	annoying thing in rust: "the perlish type declarations"
22:01:55	apotheon	I find function type signatures in Rust annoying.
22:02:02	Araq	see?
22:02:06	apotheon	s/signatures/declarations/
22:02:17	apotheon	I'm not sure what's perlish about them, though.
22:02:24	reactormonk	Araq, template → = proc # valid?
22:03:04	gradha	to continue today's yes feeling, reactormonk: yes
22:04:15	reactormonk	nope, not possible :-(
22:04:35	gradha	come on, being positive once in a while can be fun
22:04:56	reactormonk	template → = proc
22:05:01	reactormonk	foo.nim(1, 19) Error: complex statement requires indentation
22:05:10	gradha	sorry, coudn't resist
22:05:35	Araq	apotheon: I don't mind introducing new keywords but I don't see the point of 'func' anymore
22:05:41	gradha	the differences I see between rust/nimrod is that proc is fn and the ending colon is ->, what's so perlish about that?
22:06:09	Araq	rust uses ~ @ and * iirc for its pointer types
22:06:11	gradha	oh, wait, type declarations
22:06:26	apotheon	Araq: Like I said, I'm fine with proc as the keyword anyway.
22:06:50	gradha	I like ?, I'm sure it mangles the irc log good
22:06:57	apotheon	Oh, pointers.
22:07:05	apotheon	I wasn't talking about pointer types.
22:07:13	apotheon	I don't care about that, actually.
22:07:48	apotheon	I was talking about this kind of type declaration BS:
22:07:49	apotheon	fn is_three(num: int) -> bool {
22:07:49	apotheon	num % 3 == 0
22:07:50	apotheon	}
22:08:08	apotheon	Who the fuck needs to declare a return type?
22:08:12	Araq	what's wrong about it?
22:08:15	reactormonk	I usually do so.
22:08:17	apotheon	It's cluttering.
22:08:31	reactormonk	Just because scala inference sucks ;-)
22:08:54	gradha	but how could you forward declare without return types?
22:09:20	*	apotheon is drawing a blank on "forward declare".
22:09:37	Araq	nimrod requires a return type declarations too ...
22:09:57	apotheon	Hm. I guess I would probably find that annoying in Nimrod, too, then.
22:09:57	gradha	I wonder if you could overload % to make that function not compile
22:11:54	Araq	apotheon: you can use ': auto' to make nimrod infere the return type
22:11:59	Araq	but it's still clutter
22:12:21	apotheon	Oh, right, I see the return type declarations. I forgot about that.
22:12:53	apotheon	It's not *quite* as distracting as "-> bool", but yeah, it's kind of annoying to me.
22:13:08	apotheon	gradha: What is this about "forward declare"?
22:14:11	gradha	not having to write the return type for a function is nice if you have the function code
22:14:29	gradha	but how could you do that with C imported functions, for example?
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22:15:00	apotheon	Dunno. I've never dealt with that from a language design perspectives.
22:15:09	apotheon	s/ves/ve/
22:15:34	apotheon	I just find it annoying, whether it's necessary (given the language's design philosophy) or not.
22:16:15	gour	Araq: how to declare proc not having side-effects without using any pragma?
22:16:22	gradha	Araq: is nimrod capable of compiling a binary library and distributing just that with some pseudo-header like related .nim file?
22:16:57	Araq	gradha: only via DLLs
22:16:59	Araq	gour: no
22:17:14	Araq	gour: you simply can't do that ;-)
22:17:49	gour	Araq: so how is then func not making sense any longer?
22:18:01	gradha	is there any example on this DLL binary compilation mechanism?
22:18:28	gradha	and I guess that leaves static linking out of the question
22:18:41	Araq	gradha: build the stdlib as DLL, build your package as DLL and provide a .nim that imports from that DLL
22:19:08	Araq	but then people will need to use the stdlib's DLL too ...
22:19:17	Araq	so it's rude to do that
22:19:51	Araq	you can also build a static lib by hacking around with the C compiler's options
22:20:21	Araq	and import from that like you would from C
22:20:58	Araq	gour: the language is beyond the point where you can write real world programs without using pragmas anyway
22:21:47	gradha	any proc to transform a varargs into seq?
22:22:02	apotheon	reactormonk: Why do you use Scala, by the way? Are you stuck at work using the JVM?
22:22:11	gour	Araq: that's ok, but that's why i still see the use of 'func' keyword
22:22:39	reactormonk	apotheon, a bunch of NLP stuff runs on the JVM. And https://github.com/utcompling/applied-nlp
22:22:50	Araq	gradha: dunno I think system.`@` can do it
22:23:04	apotheon	reactormonk: Ah, suck.
22:23:15	reactormonk	apotheon, just bought two ramsticks so I have ~8GB for the jvm
22:23:20	apotheon	The JVM seems like an *awful* place to do NLP.
22:23:31	reactormonk	apotheon, and I gotta admit it's better than java in any way.
22:23:34	reactormonk	why so?
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22:23:49	apotheon	reactormonk: Scala is better? Yeah, from what I've seen that seems highly likely.
22:24:33	apotheon	reactormonk: Doing natural language processing in a limited, bureaucratic language like Java seems like it would be painful; the JVM is an ugly thing that causes lots of problems; the usual complaints about Java/JVM.
22:24:51	apotheon	Maybe I'm missing something, though.
22:25:07	apotheon	. . . like the fact mobile devices use JVMs a lot.
22:25:35	apotheon	I guess mobile devices are places for NLP to have a lot of value, and if the JVM is the environment you have available, I guess you use it.
22:26:43	apotheon	s/, and/ and,/
22:26:56	apotheon	that'd've been better
22:27:37	reactormonk	apotheon, indeed. Java is waaaay to verbose. Scala makes the jvm usable again
22:28:06	apotheon	reactormonk: From a programming perspective, yeah. As a user, there are portability issues.
22:28:34	apotheon	I try to avoid saddling users with such problems, but I'll have to suck it up if/when I get into Android development, I suppose.
22:28:39	reactormonk	apotheon, portiability issues?
22:28:52	gradha	I remember people doing pythong on java named jython, isn't python good for NLP?
22:29:22	apotheon	reactormonk: Java's really portable, at least across installs of the same JVM, but getting the JVM itself working is somethings a gigantic pain in the fourth point of contact.
22:30:24	apotheon	For a while, for instance, the JVM port's license issues required several instances of user intervention, some of which required getting stuff from a webpage on Sun's site.
22:30:32	apotheon	(on FreeBSD)
22:30:39	apotheon	(forgot that part of the sentence)
22:31:01	apotheon	I'm not sure how things stand now. I haven't installed the JVM on anything in years.
22:31:13	reactormonk	apotheon, openjdk nowadays
22:31:27	apotheon	The runtime. Whatever it was.
22:32:03	apotheon	The increasing frequency and absurdity of Java runtime security issues in recent years have been pretty big turn-offs, too.
22:32:18	apotheon	. . . and I've never met a Java user application I liked.
22:32:44	apotheon	They tend to be a bit more tolerable on Android than on more general-purpose OSes, at least.
22:34:01	gour	Araq: ...as sintactic sugar...will nimrod's docs stay in reST format for the foreseeable future?
22:34:19	gradha	apotheon: aren't there multiple JVM vendors? with Oracle being the popular one
22:34:34	apotheon	gradha: Kinda . . .
22:34:41	Araq	gour: yes. why? we can generate PDFs too
22:34:43	gradha	the security problems seem to be specific to a JVM, not the language itself
22:35:01	gradha	any viable alternative to oracle's jvm?
22:35:05	apotheon	gradha: . . . which only increases the portability problem, because Java code tends to fail when used on a different runtime than the one on which you tested it, from what I've seen.
22:35:13	gour	Araq: just to focus on reST/Sphinx for my own docs :-)
22:35:32	apotheon	gradha: On Android, there's Dalvik! Har.
22:36:36	gradha	I seem to remember some openjava from my debian days, maybe black-something?
22:37:46	gradha	so openjdk and icedtead
22:38:25	gradha	yes, I remember reading about gnu's classpath for something at the uni
22:38:39	apotheon	I remember that. Black-something. It was the "open source" alternative, but apparently was to the Sun JVM like Gnash was to Flash in those days -- which is to say, it works on hello world, but not much else.
22:39:47	gradha	maybe it runs on hurd
22:42:02	gradha	Araq: lately I haven't seen much bugsquashing, are you working with zahary on the gc and related stuff?
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22:42:11	apotheon	Damn, the name of that JVM alt is going to bug me.
22:42:26	gradha	apotheon: the blackmesa one? hehe
22:42:37	apotheon	har
22:42:40	Araq	gradha: indeed
22:42:55	Araq	though I'm now back at fixing bugs
22:43:35	apotheon	Blackdown!
22:43:40	apotheon	I got it.
22:44:13	apotheon	Hmm. It seems it wasn't open -- just a licensed port.
22:44:21	gour	tutorial says that "Documentation comments start with ##" any more info in regard?
22:44:51	apotheon	Apache Harmony is probably on its way to evaporating after the whole Java Community Process FUBAR.
22:45:09	gradha	apache harmony? sounds evil
22:45:41	apotheon	Of course it is -- they went open source, but used the Apache License 2.0, which is a bit like giving you cookies that are cyanide flavored.
22:45:51	apotheon	. . . and on top of that, it's Java.
22:45:56	apotheon	(har)
22:47:03	gradha	I'd buy those cookies
22:47:28	apotheon	You don't have to pay for them. Just install Flash. They're called Flash cookies.
22:49:18	gradha	pity, I was thinking about edible ones, amazon would make a million on them. They would run out of gift paper though.
22:54:27	apotheon	sure
23:03:34	reactormonk	gour, don't know :-/
23:03:38	*	gradha quit (Quit: bbl, have youtube videos to watch)
23:06:19	gour	reactormonk: ok...btw, my suggestion /s/routines/methods was in the context where tutorial talks specifically about the latter
23:06:33	Araq	but it doesn't
23:07:11	Araq	x.p where 'p' is a proc is perfectly fine too
23:07:25	Araq	the "method call syntax" is not restricted to methods :P
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23:08:59	gour	why not naming the section then as "Routines call syntax" or something
23:09:20	Araq	because there is no such thing as a "routines call syntax"
23:10:04	gour	to me, it's a bit confusing mixing 'call syntax' under the 'Methods' section
23:10:21	Araq	it's MCS because its influence has been OO
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23:11:31	gour	right, but then 'There is a syntactic sugar for calling routines' is confusing 'cause such term is never used before, iirc
23:11:44	Araq	hrm alright
23:11:53	gour	not a big deal, just short note ;)
23:14:00	reactormonk	gour, fork, change, request
23:14:32	gour	reactormonk: :-)
23:17:51	gour	reactormonk: did i mention that after using DVCS since 2003, now i've settled on fossil (at least, for private stuff), although i used git for some time...
23:19:18	apotheon	gour: Fossil's nice.
23:19:29	apotheon	I tend to prefer Fossil and Mercurial.
23:19:34	*	gour nods
23:19:34	apotheon	Git and Bazaar don't really do it for me.
23:19:43	gour	bzr is dead now
23:20:16	gour	considering size of nimrod, fossil could be nice all-in-one solution
23:24:04	reactormonk	Klingon Code Warriors embrace Git; we enjoy arbitrary conflicts. Git is not for the weak and feeble. TODAY IS A GOOD DAY TO CODE.
23:24:13	apotheon	gour: Dead?
23:24:34	apotheon	reactormonk: Klingons think prune juice is a warrior's drink, too.
23:24:45	apotheon	reactormonk: I'll stick to Fossil and Mercurial, thanks.
23:25:14	reactormonk	apotheon, that's from the fossil page
23:25:21	gour	apotheon: yes, the development stalled...you can check mailing list archive where e.g. martin pool wrote about 'lessons learnt'
23:25:23	reactormonk	In git (or rather, the git community), the development history is part of the published aspect of the project, so it provides tools for rearranging that history so you can present what you "should" have done rather than what you actually did.
23:25:27	reactormonk	hmmm
23:26:22	apotheon	gour: wow, news to me
23:27:19	reactormonk	apotheon, Zed Shaw loves it (this being negative is entirely subjective)
23:27:43	apotheon	reactormonk: Zed loves what -- Git?
23:27:47	apotheon	Bazaar?
23:27:54	apotheon	Fossil?
23:27:57	apotheon	Prune juice?
23:29:03	gour	reactormonk: i like and agree with the following comment written by richard hipp in regard to git vs fossil: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.fossil-scm.user/10188/focus=10356
23:30:05	gour	otherwise, i accept git is very powerful, but, too often, too much for my taste and everyday's needs
23:31:21	apotheon	http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.fossil-scm.user/10221
23:31:31	apotheon	That's why I don't like Git, in a nutshell.
23:31:43	apotheon	That, and the provincial smugness of its proponents, but that's another story.
23:32:13	gour	:-)
23:34:26	gour	i like that fossil is single binary, no fiddling with extensions etc.
23:34:36	apotheon	gour: The comment I see there is yours, by the way.
23:34:43	apotheon	(given the URI you provided)
23:34:55	gour	ahh..it's late here..forgive me :-)
23:35:30	reactormonk	gour, well, with git <something> you have the single binary feeling
23:35:35	*	gour wanted to paste URL provided by apotheon
23:36:21	gour	reactormonk: ok, but that's not the main reason i use fossil ;)
23:38:07	gour	before fossil, i liked darcs the most
23:39:06	apotheon	reactormonk: What is this about a single binary feeling?
23:40:40	reactormonk	apotheon, don't bother too much
23:41:53	Araq	the nimrod compiler is a single binary ...
23:42:00	apotheon	Does it feel like one?
23:42:04	apotheon	I'd like to poke one.
23:42:17	apotheon	Maybe I'd see what "single binary feeling" means, then.
23:43:28	Araq	no it doesn't feel like once because it's useless without system.nim
23:43:36	Araq	s/once/one
23:45:51	apotheon	ah