<<12-08-2012>>
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02:15:46Trixar_zawat
02:16:08Trixar_zaThere is a Klingon Programming Language?
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02:24:18reactormonkAraq: https://plus.google.com/u/0/110981030061712822816/posts/KaSKeg4vQtz
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02:37:04reactormonkAraq: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3040083&cid=40945131
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07:47:15Araqreactormonk: I already know this article ;-)
07:47:45Araqand there is a syntax for 'gensym' but I'm not gonna show you as it's about to be removed already
07:48:10Araqinstead hygiene will become the default and you can get rid of it with an 'inject' pragma
08:20:01shevyhehe
08:20:05shevyinject against hygiene?
08:20:07shevyis that a pun? :D
08:25:31Araqhe, good point :D
08:31:49Araqshevy: you keep raising that tutorial issue, but it's not as simple
08:32:11Araqif we expand the section about procs people who know all this stuff already are easily offended
08:32:28Araqwell I know I do
08:32:46Araqwhen I read something too verbose, I start skipping large fractions
08:32:52shevyyeah
08:33:04Araqwhat we really need is "Nimrod for scripters"
08:33:06shevyveterans need less information than newbies do
08:33:16Araqand "Nimrod for system programmers"
08:33:21Araqor something like that
08:33:33shevywhat about this - links to standalone examples or something like that?
08:33:45shevythe veterans could skip the html links to the examples
08:33:59Araqhm that's something to consider yeah
08:34:02fowlhey araq i was going to use typeinfo to iterate over the fields of a type to create a macro, but i probably can't do that at compile time can i?
08:34:10shevyand something like, at maximum only up to 3 html links to additional examples
08:34:18shevy(for any longer paragraph)
08:34:29Araqfowl: indeed, it's impossible for now :-/
08:34:44shevythat way the veterans don't have to read anything they don't want to, while the newbies could "dig into" a section
08:35:13Araqshevy: yeah but veterans only need a cheat sheet for the basic stuff
08:35:30shevyhehe
08:35:52Araqon the other hand, veterans should read the manual anyway ...
08:36:17Araqthe problem with the manual is the large introduction with bla bla that keeps people from reading it
08:38:06shevyI can understand that
08:39:14fowlAraq: whats needed for it to work
08:39:43Araqfowl: an API for traversing types within macros
08:40:00Araqthe typeinfo stuff shouldn't work at compile time as it's too level
08:40:06Araq*too low level
08:40:46Araqwe also need a 'fields' iterator for objects ...
08:41:03Araqthough it's hard to do with variant objects
08:53:04dom96good morning
08:59:18Araqgood morning, dom96
08:59:48dom96Araq: Sup? :P
09:08:12Araqugh trying hard to become awake
09:08:48fowl:/ i wouldnt know where to start
09:10:12dom96yes, same here.
09:19:26Araqdom96: about the UDP stuff
09:19:37dom96yes?
09:19:39Araqcan't you just assume no package loss via localhost?
09:20:36dom96I don't think so.
09:20:38dom96if I spam the server and no messages are read then when it overflows its buffer the messages are discarded
09:20:55dom96So I have to connect the clients sequentially, not all of them at once.
09:20:57Araqyeah but I'm talking about a *test*
09:21:20Araqnobody spams the machine that runs the tests, right?
09:21:33dom96no. You don't understand.
09:21:38dom96I mean if I spam in the test.
09:21:48Araqdon't do it then?
09:22:25dom96yeah, i'm not :P
09:23:25Araqbrb
09:50:27dom96wow
09:50:35dom96My nim-urbanterror still compiles
09:50:39Araq:P
09:50:51fowlwhats that
09:50:51dom96Nice backwards compatibility you got there :P
09:52:14Araqfowl: dom96 rewrote urbanterror in nimrod :D
09:53:23dom96hah
09:53:24dom96nah
09:56:58Araqso, fowl do you use aporia+suggest?
09:57:29fowlno i cant stand how it stops your typing when the box comes up
09:57:41Araq-.-
09:57:52Araqthat means nobody uses that features I guess ...
09:58:01Araqas I have the same problem ...
09:58:06dom96hah
09:58:12dom96Araq: Told ya :P
09:58:22AraqI thought it's useful for smaller projects :P
09:58:47Araqmaybe I should try it with --symbolFiles:on
09:59:16dom96It would already be good if it was faster than finding the right field or whatever
09:59:25dom96But I still don't have faith in its suggestive abilities sorry :P
10:00:05Araqthe gtk wrappers are insane ...
10:00:18fowlgtk frustrated me
10:00:58dom96You're preaching to the choir or whatever the phrase is :P
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10:11:02dom96The buffering change broke it though
10:14:17dom96I don't really see the point of sendTo when you can just use connect and then send
10:14:41Araqwell I have no idea what you're talking about
10:14:57Araq'sendTo' is not my invention, is it?
10:20:11dom96it's not no
10:20:22dom96I thought maybe someone else has an answer
10:23:31fowldom96: you dont connect with udp
10:23:58fowlevery language with a socket lib has sendto()
10:23:58dom96fowl: I know. But you can create a UDP socket and still use connect()
10:24:12dom96It doesn't actually connect
10:24:32fowlyea thats usually just a convenience thing afaik
10:24:34dom96I suppose it's just two ways of doing the same thing.
10:24:37dom96yeah
10:29:02dom96yay, well my sendTo works :)
11:59:08Araqsee you later guys
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15:14:59Trixar_zaDammit, I'm discovering how nice node.js is
15:24:12apriori__nooo!
15:24:21apriori__don't join the evil javascript fellows!
15:26:12Trixar_zaBut But... It's so pretty O_O
15:29:15apriori__javascript.. pretty?
15:30:38Trixar_zaNo, but node is :P
15:31:13Trixar_zaIt's like ugly parents having a sexy daughter
15:31:27Trixar_zaI'd still do the daughter even if the mother is ugly like sin
15:32:06apriori__now I got ya :P
15:38:04Trixar_zaI now understand what all the fuss is about
15:38:33apriori__hm?
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18:12:28AraqTrix[a]r_za: async io without continuations sucks :P
18:14:48Araqhttp://blog.ankurgoyal.com/post/6433642218/node-js-is-backwards
18:15:05dom96Interesting.
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18:19:33dom96Araq: So what's the progress on continuations?
18:20:21Araqwell ... it's hard to do efficiently ;-)
18:20:38Araqand it's only in the planning phase, no line of code has been written :P
18:23:25dom96bah
18:25:32Araqon the other hand it's easy to do it inefficiently ;-)
18:34:07dom96bbl food
18:40:12fowlAraq: can i fake a type declaration with a macro
18:40:37Araqdunno what you mean
18:40:47fowlmymacro: a: int b: string
18:41:57Araqno, but this should work: mymacro: tuple[a: int, b: string]
18:45:10fowlcool
18:58:19dom96back
19:12:35Amrykidso dom96:
19:12:37Amrykid<Amrykid> c:\users\alex\downloads\araq-nimrod-v0.8.14-394-g39c06b5\araq-nimrod-39c06b5\lib
19:12:37Amrykid[11:13:35] <Amrykid> \pure\sockets.nim(1221, 20) Error: type mismatch: got (cint, cstring, int, int32
19:12:37Amrykid[11:13:35] <Amrykid> , ptr TSockAddr, ptr Tsocklen)
19:12:37Amrykid[11:13:35] <Amrykid> but expected one of:
19:12:37Amrykid[11:13:35] <Amrykid> recvFrom(socket: TSocket, data: var string, length: int, address: var string, fl
19:12:38Amrykid[11:13:35] <Amrykid> ags: int32): int
19:12:40Amrykid[11:13:35] <Amrykid> recvfrom(s: TWinSocket, buf: cstring, len: cint, flags: cint, fromm: ptr TSockAd
19:12:42Amrykid[11:13:35] <Amrykid> dr, fromlen: ptr cint): cint
19:12:58dom96Don't spam the channel though please :P
19:13:00Amrykid(sorry for 'spam')
19:13:33dom96oh. I broke sockets on Windows :P
19:13:44dom96Give me a sec.
19:14:02dom96(I knew I forgot something; that was making sure it at least compiles on Windows. Damn.)
19:25:03dom96Amrykid: Alright. Try it now
19:28:28Amrykidhmmm...
19:28:34Amrykiddo i need to bootstrap again?
19:28:50Amrykidbecause i just tried patching those files with your updates (copy and paste)
19:28:51dom96no
19:29:24Amrykiddom96, i get this: https://gist.github.com/1e030e5867590e9d05e6
19:30:28dom96hehe
19:30:39dom96My sockets changes broke Aporia :P
19:38:06Araqer ...
19:38:18Araqalready using closures for asyncio?
19:38:22dom96yep
19:38:26dom96Is that bad?
19:38:37Araqnot if it works ;-)
19:39:14dom96Araq: Can I make gtk2 initialisation implicit when importing gtk2?
19:39:27Araqif it doesn't break code
19:40:39dom96Amrykid: ok. Another try. You should get Windows-specific errors now.
19:40:51Amrykidk
19:41:07dom96Araq: It seems initialising gtk twice doesn't cause any errors :P
19:41:24dom96So I will just deprecate `nimrod_init`
19:42:21Araqthat will break tests ...
19:42:26AraqI'm not sure
19:42:30Amrykidit compiled but:
19:42:31Amrykidc:/mingw/bin/../lib/gcc/mingw32/4.6.1/../../../../mingw32/bin/ld.exe: final link
19:42:31Amrykid failed: Permission denied
19:42:31Amrykidcollect2: ld returned 1 exit status
19:42:31AmrykidError: execution of an external program failed
19:42:59Amrykidnot sure if ld.exe is in use or...
19:43:00Araqthere was a reason why I didn't do it implicitely in gtk2.nim
19:43:16Araqthough of course I can't remember it :P
19:43:37dom96Araq: I should lecture you on the importance of comments :P
19:44:28Araqjust don't deprecate it
19:44:42Araqit's nice to be able to override the default
19:44:53Araqso that GTK doesn't mess with your command line
19:44:59dom96Initialising things twice is a bad thing though IMO
19:45:10dom96meh
19:45:18Araqtrue
19:45:22Araqwhy fix it?
19:45:26dom96Yeah.
19:45:28dom96I'll leave it as is
19:45:31Araqgood
19:45:38Araqgtk is incredibly verbose anyway
19:45:38fowlha
19:45:44fowlbest question ever "why fix it?"
19:45:49Araqthe one line won't cut it
19:46:08Amrykiddom96, ^
19:47:05Amrykidokay, now different error. can't load libgoobject or w/e.
19:47:09*Amrykid tries finding that
19:48:06Amrykidunless there are some binary differences... i have the correct file in the same dir :|
19:50:12dom96make sure the filename is the same
19:50:27dom96I'm amazed it compiles
19:50:41dom96Did I fix aporia on windows subconsciously?
19:50:59Amrykidyeah, they're the same
19:51:08Amrykid'libgobject-2.0-0.dll'
19:51:51Amrykidunless xchat-wdk (now called hexchat) uses a old version of gtk.
19:52:02Amrykidand never bothers to update the filename
19:52:16dom96Amrykid: Follow the steps in the github readme for Aporia plz
19:52:53Amrykidrawr
19:52:59Amrykidreadmes are for lusers.
19:53:06*Amrykid does it anyway
20:00:08Amrykidinstalled gtk. still can't load it
20:00:18Amrykidand yes, 'add to PATH' was checked
20:00:44Araqyou need to restart cmd.exe for the PATH changes to work
20:01:12dom96And that my friends is why I hate dependencies.
20:01:19dom96:P
20:01:30AmrykidAraq, you freaking psychic
20:01:42Araqwhy?
20:01:56Amrykidhow did you know i didn't close.... nvm.
20:02:07Araq;-)
20:02:47apriori_dom96: you could of course compile all static (which is not even really supported anymore with glibc)
20:02:52apriori_but that will open another class of issues
20:04:57dom96apriori_: I suppose yeah. Better to just create an installer for Windows.
20:05:25Araqnah an installer for windows is better
20:05:33apriori_then you could also join with other people to create a proper package manager for windows
20:05:44Araqcompiling all static is crazy talk
20:06:14dom96apriori_: Lets all use Steam! It will support apps soon.
20:06:25Araqsteam is evil
20:06:28dom96Or just wait for Windows 8 to close down everything with a app store type thing :P
20:06:30Araqit's not open source
20:06:43dom96Araq: I'm sorry, are you RMS?
20:06:46Araqwindows 8 will turn your PC into a tablet :P
20:07:29AraqRMS is my personal hero ;-)
20:07:34dom96I'm glad. Steam is finally seriously considering Linux.
20:07:41dom96*Valve I should say.
20:08:04Araqwhat's the gun guy's name again?
20:08:11Amrykidcould not load pcre.dll :|
20:08:17*Amrykid grabs that from dist
20:08:42Amrykidand... it works
20:09:05Amrykidexcept a big bug..
20:09:20Araqeric raymond?
20:09:26Amrykideverything doesn't resize with the window
20:09:50dom960_o
20:10:12dom96Amrykid: That seems like a GTK bug
20:13:14Amrykiddom96, it also died when i opened aporia.nim and when to compile file
20:13:18Amrykid*went
20:13:49dom96What exception?
20:13:57Amrykidone sec
20:14:21Amrykidit happens for compile current file and 'check'
20:14:25apriori_dom96: steam won't solve any of the underlying issues
20:14:47Amrykiddom96, https://gist.github.com/4f7fcec471ad027815c5
20:14:57apriori_though I must say, I liked valve anouncing they now work on linux support
20:15:06apriori_this might finally lead to useful graphics drivers
20:16:14dom96apriori_: Yeah, I was kidding about Steam as a package manager.
20:16:19dom96For Windows.
20:16:33Araqgetcwd doesn't work on windows?
20:17:01Araqdamn
20:17:07AraqI looked at the wrong file
20:18:26Araqwindows unicode problem?
20:18:58apriori_dom96: I dont have any humor, you know
20:19:00apriori_:P
20:19:03apriori_just sarcasm
20:19:59dom96Araq: Yeah. That's it I bet.
20:20:02dom96You still didn't fix that.
20:20:08dom96What's the command to disable that?
20:20:18Araqdunno look it up
20:20:18dom96Tell Amrykid so he can try it :P
20:20:28dom96*sigh*
20:20:41Araqit's documented now in nimrodc.html
20:21:09Araq-d:useWinAnsi
20:21:14Araqhttp://build.nimrod-code.org/docs/nimrodc.html#additional-compilation-switches
20:21:52dom96gah, beat me.
20:22:27AraqI like the quiet improvements of everything :P
20:23:26AraqI also figured the pragmas documentation is braindead
20:23:48Araqit's still grouped by a syntactic property
20:23:58Araqwhich doesn't help anybody
20:24:13Araqinstead the 'macros' section should mention the 'compileTime' pragma, for instance
20:24:55apriori_Araq: well, actually I'd love an overview of all available pragmas
20:25:04apriori_because I really get the impression, new come up daily
20:25:20Araqthat's true
20:25:23dom96I never know where to look for pragmas
20:25:31dom96It would be far nicer if they were all in the same place
20:25:36Araqgah
20:25:55Araqsome pragmas are too weird to put into the spec :P
20:26:32Amrykidtried useWinAnsi and same error
20:30:57dom96hrm.
20:31:06dom96I suppose we will have to fix osproc on windows then :|
20:32:01Araqdo you think bootstrapping on windows would work if osproc is broken?
20:32:27AraqI'm quite sure the constructed path is wrong
20:32:36dom96hrm, true
20:32:41Araqmaybe Amrykid has spaces in it for example
20:33:14dom96It's in the output:
20:33:15dom96nimrod c C:\Users\Alex\Downloads\nimrod-code-Aporia-v0.1.1-38-g8d1d587\nimrod-c
20:33:15dom96ode-Aporia-8d1d587\aporia.nim
20:33:28dom96It looks fine to me
20:33:57dom96And. Unknown OS error suggests that no error occurred.
20:34:08dom96So I bet the check for what some functions returns is wrong
20:34:20dom96Because IIRC that was wrong before ;)
20:34:40apriori_Araq: any progress on the closure issue, yet? :P
20:35:18Araqhaven't even looked into yet
20:35:18dom96Araq: There is a 'nodejs' define? 0_o
20:35:24apriori_ok
20:35:53Araqlooks quite simple though :P
20:36:08Araqand maybe my other changes already fixed it
20:38:11Araqdom96: move the line 'if success == 0: osError()' right after the createprocess call
20:38:29AraqI guess the FileClose() calls override errno
20:38:40Araqand thus there is no proper error message
20:39:02Araqbut only do that for debugging as it creates a memory leak
20:39:38dom96Maybe you should tell Amrykid to do it?
20:39:54AraqAmrykid: do it
20:39:59Amrykiddo what
20:40:09Araqchange your nick
20:40:20Amrykidno
20:40:24AraqI always feel bad talking with kids ;-)
20:40:37Amrykidbuy me a new nick then. :P
20:40:42Araqok then do what I told dom96 to do
20:42:38Amrykidsame error
20:42:50Araqstill unknown error? o.O
20:42:56Amrykidmoved the line up to right after the createprocess
20:43:11Amrykidyep
20:43:27Araqshould be after both createprocessA and CreateProcessW
20:43:54Araqand get rid of -d:useWinAnsi again
20:44:28Amrykid0_o you psychic..
20:44:46Amrykidbut now the console is spaming 'idle proc exiting'
20:45:54Amrykiddom96, ^
20:46:03Amrykidso it works im assuming
20:47:41Amrykidwait no..
20:47:47Amrykidadding that line makes it die
20:48:03Amrykidonly reason it worked was because at first it was only after the Ansi version.
20:48:20Amrykidadding it behind Ansi and Unicode CreateProcess calls kills it either way
20:48:29Araqthat's good
20:48:35Araqwhat's the error mesage?
20:48:42Amrykidunknown
20:48:54dom96lol
20:49:21Araqwell let dom96 boot windows and take a look then
20:50:58Amrykidalso the spaming of 'idle proc exiting' somehow disables editing
20:51:34Amrykidalso... clicking the close button isn't closing the app.
20:51:57Amrykidwhich means somewhere, its setting handled to true. :|
20:52:07Araqthat's because you made it worse
20:52:33Amrykidyeah, i guess compile an app makes it worse. Oh Araq, i love your logic so much.
20:53:14Araqwell osproc fails silently now and aporia goes into an endless loop or something
20:53:29Araqthe crash was better
20:53:38Araqthat's what I meant
20:54:23Amrykidshould have sad that first :|
20:57:03Amrykidand actually, that had nothing to do with my 'osproc' changes
20:57:16Amrykidbecause its still doing it after i reverted my changes
20:59:22Araqwell if resizing the window does not work
20:59:45Araqmaybe other things like shutting down don't work either
21:53:15apriori__Araq: this might sound stupid.. but how do I properly comment out blocks without causing identation errors?
21:53:31apriori__or a clearer question: what is the indentation rule for comments?
21:53:42Araqdiscard """ .... """ for commenting out works
21:53:58apriori__ah, multiline string literal, ok
21:54:10Araqso does 'when false' but then you need to indent properly
21:54:19AraqI prefer the 'when false' though
21:54:34apriori__yeah, I guess, it just takes a bit to get used to
21:54:54Araqand the indentation rule for comments is: comment is (ugh often) treated as a statement
21:55:00Araqif x:
21:55:10Araq # as if it were a statement
21:55:37Araqand yes this needs to be fixed somehow
21:55:50Araqas it's annoying in:
21:56:26Araqtype longnamehere {.final, pure.} = object # ugh, not much space left
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21:56:51Araqand subsequent comment lines need to be put on the same column
21:57:08apriori__yeah...
21:57:12apriori__I often ran into that issue
21:57:27AraqI'm not sure what's the best way to do it
21:57:48Araqbut the "comments are part of the AST" idea needs to be re-thought :-)
21:58:09AraqI guess only doc comments should be part of the AST for a start ...
21:58:26Araq(part of the AST == part of the grammar btw)
21:58:57apriori__I know a bit about the basics
21:59:23apriori__well, yeah.. but you would create a pre-processed language if you somehow treat comments not as part of it
21:59:50Araqtrue but you can't use only the AST for IDE support anyway
22:00:11Araqas string literals for example already are pre-processed
22:00:20apriori__okay
22:01:46Araq#change to int -> success
22:01:48Araqvar usage = "0"
22:01:51Araq--> nope
22:02:00apriori__let me recheck
22:02:05Araqit's the 'len' that is offensive
22:02:34apriori__hum
22:02:48apriori__same result here..
22:02:55apriori__strange.. what the hell did I do there? :P
22:06:07apriori__interesting...
22:06:13apriori__deleting the marked block doesn't help either
22:06:19apriori__I guess that was only the case for 0.8.14
22:06:30Araqyeah
22:06:52Araqthe 'len' is a big WTF
22:07:00apriori__why?
22:07:22Araqbecause it should trigger some semantic error
22:07:29Araqlike 'len' cannot be called
22:07:52apriori__ah
22:08:00apriori__so the problem is just, that it shadows a built-in proc?
22:08:18Araqin a way yes
22:08:38Araqin another way: it's stupid that locals are considered in generic instantiations
22:08:48Araqit's a feature that doesn't work well
22:08:56apriori__hm
22:11:19apriori__funny enough I didn't even quite realize that I accidently shadowed the proc len
22:11:43Araqonly because of the missing error message
22:11:49apriori__yeah
22:12:16AraqNimrod supports some kind of Koenig's lookup in generics
22:12:34Araqso that later implementations of '==' are considered in generic code
22:12:52Araqin fact, it's only useful for '==' and 'hash' and a few others IMHO
22:13:10Araqand it's only done that way to have some cute example code
22:13:16Araqbad bad bad
22:13:17apriori__hehe
22:13:36Araqinstead these symbols should be marked as 'open' within the generic code
22:13:44Araqthat solves all sorts of problems
22:14:18Araqit's quite like the 'bind' stuff for templates
22:14:23Araqit's the wrong default
22:24:46apriori__Araq: I was quite surprised that nimrod even allows utf8 chars as variable/operator/proc names
22:25:05Araqwhy?
22:25:20apriori__I don't know too many languages which even allow that
22:25:27apriori__scala, haskell.. any other?
22:26:10apriori__I'm currently talking about that with a friend of mine (also CS student, but frankly, better than me)...
22:26:27Araqfortress even supports unicode *operators*
22:26:28apriori__first I made the statement that I doub that's a good idea.. then he showed me some code.. which definetly changed my mind about that
22:26:44apriori__some code gets _incredible_ readable with "native" operator signs
22:28:32Araqlol I dunno
22:28:55Araqit's just that I dislike petty restrictions like these
22:28:56reactormonkapriori__: ruby
22:29:28apriori__reactormonk: ok
22:31:16Araqreactormonk: I'm reading luajit's code for fun
22:31:30Araqdon't ever excuse me of using too many abbrevs :P
22:33:09reactormonkAraq: why?
22:33:15reactormonkgimme sample ^^
22:34:36Araq MCode *mc = J->mcarea;
22:34:38Araq J->mcarea = NULL;
22:34:39Araq J->szallmcarea = 0;
22:49:23reactormonk...
23:14:50dom96good night guys
23:15:33Araqme too
23:15:35Araqgood night
23:22:01apriori__night
23:57:50apriori__anyone here?
23:57:58apriori__how would I use pointher arithmetic?
23:58:25apriori__something like var bla: ptr int = somePtr + someInt doesn't work