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| 01:14:27 | Demos | yo dom96, what is the solution for nimble on 64bit windows, there don't seem to be 64bit openssl libraries available, can one disable ssl (I recall there being a compile switch to do this but I forget what it was) |
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| 08:57:44 | Araq | moin dom96 |
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| 09:11:44 | Varriount | Hi Araq |
| 09:11:52 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 3959a59 Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: documented void context |
| 09:11:52 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel a878550 Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: minor testsuite cleanup |
| 09:11:52 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel afc891d Araq [+1 ±2 -0]: fixes #1528 |
| 09:11:52 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 1562f74 Araq [+0 ±3 -0]: implicit return types for iterators are now deprecated |
| 09:11:52 | NimBot | 2 more commits. |
| 09:12:34 | Araq | moin Varriount |
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| 10:39:03 | Araq | oh yay I broke NimScript ... ffs |
| 10:42:58 | enamex | How much type erasure does Nim do currently? Any posts/threads about that? (am interested in the same question as understood and answered by different languages. So, here, you take "type erasure" to mean precisely what you'd want it to mean in Nim) |
| 10:44:49 | Araq | there is no type erasure. However, the typing is weakened for the good meta programming support (template a(x: untyped)) |
| 10:46:55 | Araq | ultimately everything is typed though and there is no "fallback" to any kind of top type (Java's Object) |
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| 11:34:17 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel bf698fb Araq [+0 ±4 -0]: fixes some regressions |
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| 11:35:12 | enamex | Uhuh, I see. Seems like "type erasure" means quite different things with Haskell, C++ and Java, though. |
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| 13:39:29 | Mat4 | hello |
| 13:40:37 | Araq | hi |
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| 13:46:50 | * | Mat4 stumbles about some instability testing Wayland |
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| 13:55:08 | strcmp1 | ah yeah wayland. linuxs reply to 2003. |
| 13:55:34 | strcmp1 | or maybe you can say 1995. |
| 13:57:24 | Mat4 | 1995 ? |
| 13:58:03 | strcmp1 | yeah, cos X11 is such 90s tech |
| 13:58:33 | strcmp1 | anyway its great theyre moving on. it just took way too long. |
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| 14:00:22 | Mat4 | I think the origin of X lays somewhare around 1979 (the client/server model which limitations the Wayland project try to compensate) |
| 14:01:10 | Mat4 | however its for sure true that development progress slowly |
| 14:02:34 | strcmp1 | X was ok when the competition was W95/98 or even XP. i think it was invented somewhere in the 80s btw. i dont like it. its one of the things that make linux desktop crappy for me. |
| 14:12:05 | Mat4 | agree |
| 14:12:44 | Mat4 | however at current I see no usable open-source alternative (yet) |
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| 14:14:59 | Mat4 | it is good to see that Wayland get community support (in one way or another) |
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| 14:15:46 | strcmp1 | i think wayland is next in line as far as evolution of X goes, and linux is still far more pleasant for me to use than Windows but take OSX, their windowing system seems pretty good. |
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| 14:18:04 | Mat4 | it depends, iprobably the dynamic ressource usage is higher (if I think about Display Postscript...) |
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| 14:32:33 | Mat4 | Araq: What is planned with the reserved function keyword ? |
| 14:33:24 | Araq | to make it a shortcut for proc foo(a, b) {.noSideEffect, ***.} |
| 14:33:37 | Araq | where *** denotes an effect we don't know yet |
| 14:34:07 | Araq | most likely: .writes [] |
| 14:34:42 | Mat4 | sorry, what effect .writes [] denote ? |
| 14:35:12 | Araq | that it doesn't write to any memory location reachable by its parameters |
| 14:35:52 | Mat4 | ah, I thought this is implicated by .noSideEffect |
| 14:36:15 | Araq | and since .noSideEffect means it doesn't access any global variable, it means it performs no externally visible write operation |
| 14:36:58 | Mat4 | makes sense (somehow), thanks |
| 14:37:41 | Mat4 | does future versions of Nim reserve the keyowrd 'fn' ? (I hope not) |
| 14:38:02 | Araq | nah that would be silly |
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| 14:46:10 | Mat4 | right, I write a template |
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| 14:55:50 | Mat4 | Araq: I'm not sure that these funcional declarations can be compiled efficient by a C compiler, because there should be some unavoidable overhead for allocating return arguments. For example structures as return argument need to be allocated andmostly arguments to be copied |
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| 14:59:35 | Araq | Mat4: we don't map effects to C. We have our own optimizers that can make use of the effect system. |
| 15:03:33 | Mat4 | yes, I know. How such cases are then handled ? I mean to return a structure there must be at least exist a prior, local allocated new one. How does the effect system allows converting argument usage to be reduced to a final pointer access ? |
| 15:06:21 | Araq | proc depthOfTree(n: ref Node): int {.writes: [].} means it doesn't write to 'n' or any node reachable by 'n' |
| 15:06:50 | Araq | that it writes 4 bytes to its result stack frame slot is irrelevant |
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| 15:11:48 | Mat4 | ok, so some optimization routine is able to follow the return usage (I think) |
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| 15:12:48 | Araq | I think you see this from a much too low level perspective |
| 15:12:59 | Mat4 | that can be |
| 15:13:44 | Araq | optimizers can transform f(x)+f(x) into f(x)*2 without considering stack slots |
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| 15:20:54 | Mat4 | right |
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| 17:40:26 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel c27019f Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: fixes generic instantations in concepts |
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| 18:57:23 | Mat4 | is something like 'type aType = type1 or type2' possible ? |
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| 18:59:37 | Araq | yeah with exactly this syntax. but note that it creates a generic type, not a union |
| 19:00:18 | Mat4 | ah thanks |
| 19:02:35 | Mat4 | the type system is really as good as the one of Ada (beside the newest standard maybe), that's nice |
| 19:05:14 | Araq | actually it can do lots of things Ada cannot even dream about, but thanks ;-) |
| 19:10:26 | Mat4 | as written, I don't know the newest Ada standard other that an extended type system should obviate external theorem solvers |
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| 19:13:58 | Mat4 | (Although I think this is unlikely) |
| 19:16:01 | enamex | ?? The new Ada obviates the need for external theorem solvers that the older one needed, or what? |
| 19:18:20 | Mat4 | in the past for this some Ada extensions exist (such as SPARK) which includes an theorem solver so yes |
| 19:20:09 | enamex | ah |
| 19:22:36 | Mat4 | SPARC extend ADA with contracs (an extended comment syntax) which are processed by an external program, the 'Examiner' <- theorem solver of some kind |
| 19:23:27 | Mat4 | Ada 2012 specify equivalent aspects as part of the language core |
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| 19:25:13 | Mat4 | ^contracts |
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| 19:27:47 | koz_ | Is the Nim Wikipedia article out of date? It says you can make Android apps with Nim, but I don't see anything about it on the Nim site anywhere. |
| 19:28:47 | Araq | koz_: $nim/examples/cross_calculator/android |
| 19:29:08 | yglukhov | koz, since Nim uses C as intermediate code, you can develop for every platform that supports C. In other words, literally, every platform ;) |
| 19:29:25 | Araq | well of course Android still says "fuck you, native code" |
| 19:30:53 | yglukhov | kinda yeah, but still it seems like they're not so against native code, given their recent android studio update, that now suppotrs NDK development |
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| 19:34:59 | Mat4 | I don't think that programming for the NDK makes sense as the new runtime environment is basical an efficient AOT compiler beside some exceptions (such as writing an interpreter) |
| 19:38:44 | koz_ | OK, thanks everyone. |
| 19:39:14 | koz_ | Mostly I'm looking into a way not to have to write the same code twice. |
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| 19:42:34 | Mat4 | hmm, you mean complete portability independent of the target ? |
| 19:43:42 | koz_ | Mat4: Basically, I don't wanna have to use language X for an iOS app, then language Y for Android, where X != Y. |
| 19:48:31 | Mat4 | for this I think you will need basical a wrapper for one of these cross-platform widget libraries (like wxWidget) and an abstraction for the operating environment |
| 19:51:28 | koz_ | Mat4: How hard would this be to roll in Nim? |
| 19:54:05 | Mat4 | I'm unsure. The time consuming part is abstaction of the operating environment |
| 19:54:11 | Mat4 | for sure |
| 19:54:45 | koz_ | I see. |
| 19:55:01 | Mat4 | writing a wrapper for a gui library should not be the problem |
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| 20:27:38 | Araq | Mat4: we have a wrapper for wxWidgets but I don't think wxWidgets runs on android |
| 20:30:15 | EXetoC | will the API change much? |
| 20:30:37 | Araq | EXetoC: you mean wxnim? no. |
| 20:31:12 | EXetoC | I'll try it then. using gtk again and it's annoying to use |
| 20:31:19 | Mat4 | Araq: I noticed wxWidgets as example for the class of cross platform GUI libraries (it support not Android but iOS) |
| 20:32:39 | Mat4 | Qt support Android (I don't know which versions) |
| 20:33:22 | Araq | EXetoC: didn't try it on Linux or Mac, but shouldn't be too hard to make it work |
| 20:34:37 | EXetoC | ok |
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| 20:46:23 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 148bbee Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Added some info about bugfixes to news.txt. |
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| 21:00:15 | EXetoC | right, pkg-config |
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| 21:06:11 | EXetoC | -.- |
| 21:20:47 | EXetoC | it works |
| 21:21:10 | EXetoC | it just spends ages on stc |
| 21:26:09 | dom96 | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10208629 :\ |
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| 21:34:30 | Mat4 | dom96: sorry, but these whole discussion is just irrational nonsense in my opinion |
| 21:34:58 | dom96 | really? Why do you think it's irrational? |
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| 21:42:34 | Mat4 | I don't see an effort for objective comparison of the reffered languages, only some interwoven monologs about non founded preferences |
| 21:43:21 | profan | ^ there could be an interesting discussion, but the post boils down to "i think nim has no direction", it's not productive :P |
| 21:43:27 | Mat4 | "If you aren't bound by C-linkage or zero-runtime/overhead requirements, then there are higher level, more flexible languages to use than Rust" |
| 21:44:50 | Mat4 | that's always true or false dependent which is assumed to be 'flexible' |
| 21:45:12 | profan | at least he didn't mention "weak typing" anywhere in his comments :P |
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| 21:48:07 | Mat4 | to be precise it is circular reasoning to assume that the vality of programming languages can be rated based upon generalisation of personal choice |
| 21:50:30 | Mat4 | thats like ... these language is better or not because it does not match my prefered language in style |
| 21:52:11 | Mat4 | the same logic as you're wearing green shoes. I don't like green so you have a bad taste |
| 21:52:28 | Mat4 | that's just irrational nonsense |
| 21:53:02 | Mat4 | as written |
| 21:53:18 | Mat4 | anyhow human |
| 21:54:31 | * | Mat4 beeing sick confonted with such 'discussions' |
| 21:55:42 | Demos | what's the status of #2599? |
| 21:55:47 | Demos | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/2599 |
| 21:56:11 | Araq | Demos: I think I have it working ... |
| 21:56:33 | Demos | I just ran into it |
| 21:56:47 | Demos | not in a very minimal test case though |
| 21:57:17 | Araq | in a template/generic you can use `[]`(a, i) instead of a[i] as a workaround |
| 22:01:55 | Araq | dom96: I would reply but hacker news doesn't accept my password reset |
| 22:02:42 | Demos | yeah I just exported tables from my module |
| 22:17:07 | juanfra | why nim-lang/csources has only one version tagged? 0.9.4 |
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| 22:31:29 | Araq | juanfra: I don't know. does it matter? it's all generated code, csources mostly misuses github as a file hosting service |
| 22:36:28 | juanfra | yeah, it matters from a package maintainer point of view. I would prefer something more formal. Something like to publish both tarballs (nim version + csources) in the web. |
| 22:36:51 | juanfra | not a big problem, btw :) |
| 22:37:37 | Araq | we have tar.xz releases |
| 22:37:49 | juanfra | yes, but not for the csources |
| 22:38:00 | juanfra | that is my point |
| 22:38:04 | Araq | the tar.xz includes the C sources you need |
| 22:38:12 | juanfra | oh |
| 22:39:52 | juanfra | sorry for the misunderstanding |
| 22:43:23 | juanfra | I've another question. Someone knows if nim would work on hppa/ia64? |
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| 22:49:48 | Araq | juanfra: the GC has some code to support it that has never been tested |
| 22:51:27 | juanfra | ok, thanks |
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