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| 00:36:44 | filwit | sorry gradha, was talking on the phone |
| 00:36:48 | Araq | reactormonk: did that NimString fix help? |
| 00:36:57 | filwit | i don't have a lot of time to work on Nimrod features, ATM |
| 00:37:22 | filwit | but I'll stick around and try and help on minor things from time-to-time |
| 00:37:36 | filwit | got to go now though |
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| 00:40:01 | Araq | good night |
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| 02:09:40 | reactormonk | Araq, jup |
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| 19:51:09 | avarus | hi |
| 20:08:02 | Araq | hi avarus |
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| 20:40:37 | Araq | hi gradha |
| 20:40:45 | gradha | hi |
| 20:40:59 | Araq | now that your awesome world changing command line stuff is finished what are you up to? |
| 20:41:29 | gradha | at the moment I'm going back through notes, then back to world changing |
| 20:42:21 | Araq | do your notes include swig support? |
| 20:42:29 | gradha | let me check |
| 20:43:29 | gradha | nope |
| 20:44:26 | Araq | pity |
| 20:47:26 | Araq | do your notes include taking over "claro"? |
| 20:47:56 | gradha | not at all, I hate GUIs |
| 20:48:14 | dom96 | what exactly do your notes include? |
| 20:48:25 | gradha | I can put them online if you want to see |
| 20:48:51 | dom96 | hrm, sure. |
| 20:48:53 | gradha | hah, this one about the forum is nice: "account locking, with electric shock plugin" |
| 20:49:03 | * | gour wonders what kind of cli apps is gradha writing for iOS :-) |
| 20:50:07 | gradha | ok, my random todo at http://pastebin.com/tWtENGgM |
| 20:50:42 | gradha | gour: libraries for other developers |
| 20:50:48 | dom96 | wow, very nicely formatted. |
| 20:51:03 | dom96 | My todos are almost always all over the place. |
| 20:52:47 | gradha | it's more like a text file I add random stuff I later regret and discard anyway |
| 20:52:53 | * | dom96 tries to comprehend the spanish |
| 20:53:54 | gradha | you may want to ask, it's quicker and possibly I understand better the context |
| 20:56:58 | dom96 | I can deduce most of it. |
| 21:00:23 | dom96 | Earlier today I was thinking that perhaps it would be a good idea to set clear goals of what babel should and should not be, what it should and should not do etc. |
| 21:01:24 | gradha | does it need any more work? to me it seems it needs minor features like being able to specify git branches and stuff like that |
| 21:01:43 | gradha | oh, wait, the splash, how could I forget |
| 21:02:19 | dom96 | IMO it needs lots of work, and I still prefer the way packages are handled by cabal rather than the way we handle them now. |
| 21:02:35 | dom96 | (exhu mentioned that he preferred it too) |
| 21:02:59 | gradha | how is it better than typing "install blah" and have blah installed? |
| 21:03:49 | dom96 | The whole system is better if we have a central repository with different versions of each package nicely zipped up. |
| 21:04:43 | gradha | so you prefer the babel json to be split? |
| 21:04:55 | dom96 | My main gripe is that currently the packages.json file repeats a lot of information which is already present in the .babel files. |
| 21:05:47 | dom96 | And as soon as dependencies come into play they will need to be repeated in the .json file too... |
| 21:06:04 | gradha | why is the .babel file there? couldn't it be generated from the main repo with the big json? |
| 21:06:36 | gradha | 1) babel install blah 2) babel gets blah reading it in the github json 3) installs locally and generates the individual .babel |
| 21:07:09 | dom96 | Well the local .babel file means that you can install a package manually with 'babel install' in its dir. |
| 21:07:40 | gradha | sure, you can use that for testing, but once it gets into babel you could get rid of it, only developers need to touch it |
| 21:08:16 | gradha | also, maybe babel could provide a "babel push" which would read that local babel file, validate it, and prepare a diff against the github json |
| 21:08:59 | dom96 | I think that this information belongs with the source code. |
| 21:09:30 | gradha | what would happen if you didn't have it? |
| 21:10:04 | gradha | does something break if I delete ~/.babel/libs/argument_parser-0.1.0/argument_parser.babel ? |
| 21:10:15 | dom96 | For example, v0.1 of your package might require two additional packages. Whereas v0.2 requires 4 packages. |
| 21:10:24 | dom96 | Should the .json file contain this information? |
| 21:10:35 | Zor | hey Araq, you around? |
| 21:10:50 | dom96 | Another problem is that this packages.json file is not publically editable. |
| 21:11:11 | gradha | you don't want it publically editable |
| 21:11:46 | dom96 | Yes, but say you are tweaking your package's dependencies, should you make multiple pull requests while developing your library? |
| 21:12:09 | gradha | I would not use babel for development stuff |
| 21:12:32 | gradha | my idea of packages is that they are static, done, finished |
| 21:12:47 | dom96 | True. Perhaps that should be enforced. |
| 21:12:55 | gradha | people who want development versions will get the git version directly |
| 21:12:57 | dom96 | Currently it's bleeding-edge. |
| 21:13:18 | dom96 | But then without the .babel file you cannot install the development version :P |
| 21:13:33 | gradha | I'm not saying you get rid of that |
| 21:13:37 | gradha | let me explain |
| 21:13:50 | gradha | the .babel file is something the developer who creates/mantains a package writes |
| 21:14:02 | gradha | it is used for local testing |
| 21:14:33 | gradha | then, I have a finished version, so I "babel submit" and babel takes the .babel file, downloads the big json an figures out how to patch it |
| 21:14:46 | gradha | the patch is left in a file so you can submit it to github or something |
| 21:15:06 | dom96 | hrm, that's actually quite a nice idea. |
| 21:15:09 | gradha | that's the developer pov |
| 21:15:17 | gradha | but for the user, a .babel file is not useful at all |
| 21:15:24 | gradha | I mean, why would I even want to look at it? |
| 21:15:30 | gradha | it's part of the package system |
| 21:16:00 | gradha | so I don't mind if it's json, sqlite or xml, it's somewhere, and the system works, that's all a user wants |
| 21:17:21 | gradha | another thing I would like in a package manager is to point me to the documentation |
| 21:17:45 | gradha | maybe I could type "babel docs packagename" and it would say paths to the docs that came with the package |
| 21:17:55 | gradha | or maybe open them instantly with the OS's browser if they are html |
| 21:18:23 | gradha | the opening with the browser is probably easiest, you enforce all packages come with an index.html, and users don't care about paths and weird stuff |
| 21:18:41 | gradha | the developer can put in this index a quick menu like "read docs, go to website, contact, etc" |
| 21:19:05 | dom96 | Alright. Let me move on to another problem that I see with the current system. Because each package links to a github repository a malicious developer could easily submit some package and then a while later change the content of his github repo so that malicious code is installed on the users computer. |
| 21:22:13 | gradha | you have suddenly change the requirements from package manager to signed hardcore security and stuff |
| 21:22:49 | gradha | is that problem avoidable at all? |
| 21:23:15 | gradha | I mean, I put up a zip somewhere, a hacker changes, same problem |
| 21:23:16 | dom96 | It's avoidable if we switch to a central trusted repository ala cabal. |
| 21:23:47 | gradha | you mean cabal servers can't be hacked? |
| 21:24:57 | dom96 | They can, the point is it is much easier to edit a repo you own than to hack someone else's server. |
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| 21:25:52 | gradha | I only see that as a displacement of trust, which is not welcome. The central repo is just an app store, worse brouhahas happen when users start trusting "oh, it came from the repo" |
| 21:27:07 | gradha | the only thing sensible I see is adding checksums which babel can calculate and check, other than that, even if something comes from a central repo it can be a logical bomb |
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| 21:28:14 | gradha | that's the most download services provide, a checksum to at least know you got what you thought you wanted to get |
| 21:28:32 | gradha | IMO technology doesn't solve a social issue, which is trust and evilness |
| 21:29:46 | dom96 | A checksum would work :D |
| 21:37:50 | gradha | what else problems you want to solve with babel? |
| 21:38:34 | dom96 | Originally I planned to allow compilation and installation of applications. |
| 21:41:27 | dom96 | I still feel like there are many problems which I simply can't remember though. Every time I sit down to work on babel I think of something new, perhaps I am just thinking too much of what /might/ happen though. |
| 21:41:56 | gradha | play some starcraft2 instead |
| 21:42:34 | dom96 | meh |
| 21:49:01 | gradha | maybe you could try formalizing the issues on github |
| 21:51:57 | gradha | I tend to have a synchronization problem: when I sit to work I want to play, when I sit to play I want to work |
| 21:53:26 | dom96 | I barely ever bother rebooting to Windows to play anything. |
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| 21:54:12 | gradha | I know that feeling, I barely ever bother opening dosemu to play anything |
| 21:54:58 | gradha | wait, didn't try it after upgrading to mountain lion |
| 21:55:37 | gradha | pfiu... masters of orion still works |
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| 23:35:02 | reactormonk | Araq, http://felixge.de/2013/03/11/the-pull-request-hack.html maybe interested? |
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