<<13-07-2012>>

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00:44:51	filwit	ah ha!
00:45:06	filwit	finally got Arch Linux setup again, after my Power supply hit the fan
00:45:32	filwit	looks like you folks are probably asleep though
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00:49:01	ccssnet	hi
00:49:04	ccssnet	bye
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02:47:15	Trixar_za	of course Araq would quote Rammstein
02:48:37	Trixar_za	Humans are just creatures of the eye
02:48:38	Trixar_za	Beautiful things are what I want
02:48:52	Trixar_za	Der Mensch ist doch ein Augentier
02:48:52	Trixar_za	Sch�ne Dinge w�nsch' ich mir
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08:18:36	Araq_	SchalaZeal: most of your wrappers don't compile :P
08:18:48	Araq_	you keep forgetting '=' in proc defs
08:18:54	Araq_	which is a common typo
08:19:06	Araq_	I'll think how to improve it :-)
08:20:39	SchalaZeal	ah
08:21:10	SchalaZeal	You've tried the jpeg/turbojpeg ones?
08:24:45	Araq_	no, just skimmed the code
08:24:59	SchalaZeal	ah
08:25:29	SchalaZeal	well I didn't know CDecl's had to have =... thought that was for body definitions
08:27:01	Araq_	sure
08:27:09	Araq_	you missed the = for body definitions
08:27:30	SchalaZeal	Where abouts?
08:28:39	Araq_	https://github.com/Schala/nimrod-modules/blob/master/lib/pure/minecraft.nim
08:29:02	Araq_	and newTag() seems to be an endless recursion
08:29:10	Araq_	that will crash with a segfault
08:29:19	SchalaZeal	Hmm
08:29:24	Araq_	and you'll blame Nimrod ... ;-)
08:29:27	SchalaZeal	bloody java code
08:29:38	Araq_	though it can't do much about it
08:29:58	SchalaZeal	oh the first newTag?
08:30:13	SchalaZeal	it calls an overloaded counterpart\
08:30:24	Araq_	btw c2nim can translate C function bodies too
08:30:39	Araq_	and thus Java if you make the Java sufficiently C-like
08:31:07	SchalaZeal	Well, the thing is everything is an object in Java
08:31:14	fowl	how does it call the overloaded counterpart? htey have the same arguments
08:31:33	Araq_	oh ok
08:31:45	SchalaZeal	........oh wait
08:31:53	SchalaZeal	I must've misported it
08:32:03	SchalaZeal	fudge
08:32:33	Araq_	no ...
08:32:44	Araq_	line 42: proc newTag*(aType: TTagType, aName: cstring, aValue: PValue): PTag =
08:33:15	Araq_	line 54: proc newTag*(aType: TTagType, aName: cstring, aValue: PValue): PTag =
08:33:24	SchalaZeal	I know, just noticed a signature match
08:33:30	Araq_	--> same signature
08:34:20	Araq_	btw never again make a pull request with code that doesn't even compile :P
08:34:23	SchalaZeal	Minecraft's map API is made for languages that hold your hand
08:34:45	SchalaZeal	I felt rather embarassed by that
08:35:05	Araq_	you misused my credulity :P
08:35:10	fowl	ugh i did something wrong, my sprites are coming up in weird colors
08:35:31	SchalaZeal	To test compile, do I just import it?
08:35:36	Araq_	though my reading of the diff should have spotted that too
08:35:53	SchalaZeal	oh wait
08:35:58	SchalaZeal	compileOnly
08:36:33	Araq_	btw fowl, the way to do it is:
08:37:02	Araq_	proc floatPath(x: PJSon, path: openArray[string]): float =
08:37:18	Araq_	... # return 0.0 if some component doesn't exist
08:37:32	Araq_	to get rid of the excessive checking
08:38:07	Araq_	obj.floatPath("fieldA", "innerField", "etc")
08:39:26	Araq_	SchalaZeal: there is also 'nimrod check'
08:40:18	SchalaZeal	........Alright, I officially have more blonde moments and brainfarts with programming than otherwise
08:42:07	fowl	Araq_, im expecting missing sections and fields so i cant just check obj["fieldA"]["innerField"] without knowing that fieldA exists and is a JObject and that innerField exists in it
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08:59:40	Araq_	fowl: that's why I'm suggesting this helper proc
08:59:57	Araq_	in 'floatPath' you need to check these things
09:00:17	Araq_	but you only have to program it once in 'floatPath' instead of
09:00:24	Araq_	bloating your whole code base
09:01:06	fowl	o
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09:17:24	Araq_	hi filwit
09:17:39	filwit	hi Araq
09:18:06	filwit	been down for the last day and a half trying to figure out my computer :-S
09:19:01	Araq_	that's not good
09:19:11	Araq_	dom96 got arm to work with a tiny patch
09:19:12	filwit	oh, btw, I tried to merge the upstream Nim repo into my github fork, but it won't compile now :/
09:19:21	Araq_	he he he
09:19:23	filwit	nice!
09:19:30	Araq_	the commit says "breaks bootstrapping"
09:19:42	Araq_	you need to recompile from C sources
09:19:52	Araq_	that's why they're part of the repo, after all
09:19:54	filwit	ahh, didn't read the message
09:19:56	Araq_	./build.sh
09:20:11	filwit	I should have tried that, I forgot bootstrapping will fail sometimes
09:21:49	Araq_	no release can compile the next release btw ...
09:21:56	filwit	anyways, I'm liking this new setup I've got
09:22:11	filwit	I was running a dual-boot of Win7 and Ubuntu
09:22:18	Araq_	we always change enough to break something ;-)
09:22:27	filwit	now I've dual booted with Win8 and Arch :)
09:22:39	filwit	heh, I like breaking changes
09:23:03	filwit	means things get caught and fixed
09:24:17	filwit	bleh, I'm getting a build error...
09:24:41	filwit	one sec, re-extracting and trying again
09:24:57	filwit	k, it's good now
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09:26:58	Araq_	so filwit, what have you worked on?
09:27:22	filwit	nothing person
09:27:30	filwit	like I said, I've been down
09:27:51	filwit	my whole computer died, and I thought It was my Mobo
09:27:58	filwit	but turned out to just be the power supply
09:28:23	filwit	personal**
09:28:46	filwit	but I'm going to be trying to get the TType/PType stuff resolved
09:29:24	filwit	I was tracing through those files trying to understand some of the compiler internals
09:30:06	*	Trix[a]r_za is now known as Trixar_za
09:30:28	filwit	it doesn't seem to complicated, but i still need to get my barings a bit
09:30:56	Araq_	oh ...
09:31:17	Araq_	I thought that means "had less time for nimrod" ;-)
09:31:26	Araq_	not "had no time for nimrod" :-)
09:32:21	filwit	ha! I barely have enough time as it is.
09:32:32	filwit	I've got more projects than just Nimrod you know :)
09:33:22	Araq_	thats bad
09:33:40	Trixar_za	I also derive some weird pleasure of using .die
09:33:53	filwit	no, I like Nimrod
09:33:59	filwit	I won't just leave
09:34:29	filwit	and eventually I hope to have more free time in the day to spend on it
09:34:49	Araq_	good
09:34:50	filwit	but right now I work + make games with my brother in an attempt ot change careers
09:35:05	filwit	that plus the rest of life has pretty much all of my time
09:35:51	Araq_	Trixar_za: 'die' for 'quit'?
09:36:06	Trixar_za	It's for the python imbot
09:36:15	Trixar_za	It restarts the server - and kills the users on it
09:36:16	Trixar_za	:P
09:36:26	Trixar_za	It's what the nimrod imbot will eventually replace
09:47:30	Araq_	filwit: your help is appreciated but don't be annyoed when I do the PType TType stuff ;-)
09:47:56	Araq_	it's simple for me and often I long for simple braindead things to code :D
09:48:46	Araq_	most other the things left to do require hard work
09:48:59	Araq_	(like proper coroutine support)
09:50:53	Araq_	I also thought about your object[] proposal and think it should be the other way round:
09:51:06	Araq_	tuples should support indentation syntax instead
09:51:19	filwit	heh, np, I don't care how other's code so much as the ability to code things right ;P
09:52:13	filwit	oh wait... you mean you're going to implement the TType/PType stuff?
09:52:36	filwit	either way, I'm still going to try so I can learn the internals a bit more
09:53:33	filwit	also, I agree that indentation for Tuples makes a lot of sense
09:54:18	filwit	the only reason I was saying Object[] was more of an after-thought to have everything be consistent, since you need Tuple[] syntax
09:55:11	filwit	but it's completely unnecessary
09:55:49	Araq_	"oh wait... you mean you're going to implement the TType/PType stuff?" - yes.
09:56:07	filwit	Okay, well Araq_, If you're going to do the PType TType stuff then is there another easy task I can attempt?
09:56:14	filwit	I have a bit of time this morning
09:56:45	filwit	and I'd like to spend it on Nimrod trying to do one of the things on my feature requests
09:56:58	filwit	but I don't know which one would be easiest
09:57:04	filwit	any ideas?
09:58:04	filwit	proc indentation doesn't sound too hard...
09:58:13	Araq_	tuples with indentation support
09:58:19	Araq_	should only require parser.nim changes
09:58:31	filwit	okay, I'll try that, thanks
09:58:42	Araq_	proc indentation is fine too
09:59:18	fowl	with proc indentation, will you be able to do proc A() = B() B() = ...
09:59:30	fowl	because without it B has to be define before A
10:00:09	Araq_	now that's a much harder change :P
10:00:23	fowl	in the way that type X = object b: B B = object .. works
10:00:30	fowl	ah
10:01:08	Araq_	and I am always thinking about this as it as a "show stopper" for people
10:01:26	fowl	i guess it has to be linear because theres the possibility of dynamic methods
10:01:54	Araq_	who of course never think about the consequences ...
10:02:44	fowl	it means your most important procs end up near the bottom and the procs that never get called are towards the top
10:05:14	filwit	I'm really not a fan of forward declarations
10:05:28	filwit	though I'm sure addressing them isn't the most trivial of tasks
10:05:36	Araq_	and guess what? I even like it this way ...
10:07:02	filwit	you're crazy sometimes
10:07:06	filwit	:O
10:07:08	Araq_	it's not easy with macros
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10:18:13	filwit	Araq_, I just had the best idea for factories....
10:18:29	filwit	;) I know how much you like talking about them
10:18:40	filwit	seriously though, I made a gist for you
10:18:42	filwit	https://gist.github.com/3104079
10:18:51	filwit	I think it's perfect
10:19:55	filwit	the idea is to have a 'factory' keyword (just like 'method', 'template', 'proc', etc...)
10:21:05	filwit	but it's unique in that it invisibly calls 'new(this)' (on 'ref object's only), and it overloads based on return type
10:22:44	filwit	oh, and the most important part is that a 'factory' function must be invoked through the return type, eg, factory new(): Person = ...; var philip = Person.new()
10:24:02	filwit	idk, I like it, but it may be flawed somehow, or you may not like it
10:24:15	filwit	let me know :)
10:31:22	filwit	(...I'm a bit obsessed, I know...)
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10:36:15	Araq_	filwit: I most certainly will not make 'factory' a keyword for a start
10:36:26	Araq_	and btw 'uint' is not 'natural'
10:36:29	Araq_	it's a hack
10:36:40	*	Araq_ despises unsigned
10:37:09	filwit	well... darn :(
10:37:37	filwit	I thought you where adding in uint as a distinct type, btw
10:37:50	filwit	or did you deside against that?
10:38:00	filwit	decide*
10:39:58	Araq_	'uint' already exists
10:40:10	Araq_	but it's only supported for C interfacing
10:40:18	Araq_	not as some general "natural" type
10:40:27	filwit	ah, I see
10:40:28	Araq_	which is called "naural" in nimrod ...
10:40:35	Araq_	er, "natural"
10:40:47	Araq_	maybe I'll change it to 'nat' to encourage its usage
10:41:04	filwit	so you really hate my factory idea, eh?
10:41:20	Araq_	I don't hate it
10:41:30	Araq_	I dislike the keyword for a start
10:41:46	filwit	well, besides the keyword
10:41:56	Araq_	and I dunno what's wrong with your new(c: typedesc{T}) idea
10:42:23	filwit	it's ugly and requires you to do: new(c)
10:42:29	filwit	>:D
10:42:43	filwit	i know, I'm being picky
10:43:11	filwit	It's just, compare these two:
10:43:35	filwit	proc new(c: typedesc{T}): Foo = ...
10:43:55	filwit	factory new(): Foo =
10:44:14	filwit	(i know you don't like 'factory', i'm just using it as any example)
10:44:25	fowl	proc new(c: type(Foo)): Foo = ... call using Foo.new() because tis rewritten to new(Foo)
10:44:41	filwit	yes fowl, I know
10:44:57	filwit	nevermind... it's fine I can live with this
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10:45:23	filwit	besides, you all probably like named factory functions anyways...
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10:55:07	Araq_	the real problem is that you all have been spoiled by c# ... :P
10:55:43	filwit	yes, that is true :)
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10:58:22	Trixar_za	I haven't written a single line of code in C# - yet
10:58:25	Trixar_za	:P
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10:59:24	apriori__	and I currently need to write java for my work.. and hardly can resist vomiting...
10:59:37	Araq_	and somehow expect a random guy to come up with something as convenient as a compiler written by team of fulltime programmers ...
10:59:58	Araq_	you need to compare nimrod to archaic C instead :D
11:00:07	Trixar_za	[12:57:33] [Trixar_za] I haven't written a single line of code in C# - yet
11:00:07	Trixar_za	[12:57:36] [Trixar_za] :P
11:00:09	Trixar_za	There
11:00:10	Trixar_za	:P
11:00:22	Trixar_za	Unless you count 'clones'
11:00:36	filwit	it is pretty amaizing what you've come up with so far
11:00:52	Trixar_za	I have, however, been spoiled by Python
11:01:40	apriori__	python has nice syntax.. but its butt slow
11:01:52	Araq_	and fyi I now plan to tackle the forward declaration problem and the recursive module dependency problem at the same time ;-)
11:02:09	Araq_	as it's a very disruptive change in the compiler
11:03:27	filwit	well I'm having a hard enough time getting procs to compile with indentation...
11:04:14	filwit	but I blame your excessive use of abbreviations and not my merit as a programmer ;-P
11:05:03	Trixar_za	Hmmm
11:05:05	Trixar_za	I wonder
11:05:09	fowl	I Dont get why this isnt working :/ https://gist.github.com/3104298
11:05:20	apriori__	excessive use of abbriviations? take a look at rust :P
11:05:40	fowl	TVideoMode is borked or something
11:05:42	apriori__	fowl: error message?
11:06:51	apriori__	also.. if that is supposed to be C-interop, use the c type aliases
11:07:05	*	Trixar_za tries to do the python challenge (http://www.pythonchallenge.com) in Nimrod
11:07:09	apriori__	you might have struct size issues
11:07:28	filwit	apriori__: ya, not a fan of rust
11:07:38	fowl	apriori__, added the error message a comment on the gist
11:09:03	apriori__	fowl: I'd check the struct sizes
11:09:59	fowl	you were right
11:10:03	fowl	changing it to cint worked
11:10:08	fowl	and i got a window :O
11:10:12	apriori__	:)
11:10:35	fowl	tyty
11:10:39	apriori__	np
11:11:39	fowl	I read about tuple expansion (not sure thats the right term) like var (x, y) = mytuple
11:12:02	Araq_	fowl: are you sure sfRenderWindow_create takes TVideoMode by copy?
11:12:13	fowl	so i tried in the place its most needed, for (x, y) in seq[tuples]: but it didnt work :/
11:12:46	fowl	yes Araq_ : sfRenderWindow* sfRenderWindow_create(sfVideoMode mode, const char* title, sfUint32 style, const sfContextSettings* settings);
11:12:46	Araq_	fowl: it does work in 'for' without the () ... but you have to be careful
11:13:03	Araq_	that's unusual
11:13:20	Araq_	and I think there is a 'bycopy' pragma for that
11:13:32	Araq_	otherwise you're at the whim of Nimrod's optimizer
11:13:46	Araq_	which may decide to pass it by reference instead
11:14:08	Araq_	(yeah I know, I shouldn't do this for 'cdecl' ...)
11:14:43	Araq_	fowl: use: for x, y in items(seq_of_tuples):
11:14:58	fowl	i feel like there are tons of useful undocumented things ._.
11:15:19	fowl	cool i will try it
11:16:01	Araq_	fowl: I barely maintain the tutorials :P
11:16:08	Araq_	the manual is much better
11:16:14	apriori__	Araq_: no wonder.. writing docs/manuals is boring ;)
11:16:32	Araq_	hey, most of the stuff I do, I also document
11:16:39	apriori__	good ;)
11:16:43	Araq_	but it's annoying to update both the spec and the tutorial
11:16:48	apriori__	yeah
11:16:49	Araq_	so the spec gets all the love
11:16:57	apriori__	the spec is way more important
11:16:59	Trixar_za	erm
11:17:04	Trixar_za	How do I do the power to?
11:17:11	Trixar_za	like 2^38
11:17:15	Araq_	math.pow or something
11:17:23	Araq_	or 'shl'
11:17:47	apriori__	with shl only valid for base 2
11:18:59	Araq_	ha who needs any other base anyway ;-)
11:19:07	fowl	proc pow*(x: float, y: int): float {.importc: "pow", header: "<math.h>".}
11:19:07	apriori__	hehe
11:19:54	fowl	lol, i didnt know there was math.pow
11:19:56	fowl	i even looked for it
11:19:59	Trixar_za	import math
11:19:59	Trixar_za	var number = pow(2, 38)
11:19:59	Trixar_za	echo number
11:20:02	Trixar_za	Doesn't work
11:20:02	Trixar_za	:P
11:22:09	filwit	can I use build.sh without building a release?
11:22:17	filwit	or should I just use koch?
11:23:11	Trixar_za	import math
11:23:11	Trixar_za	echo pow(2.0, 38.0)
11:23:16	Trixar_za	works, but that's just lame :P
11:23:35	filwit	bleh, koch takes longer than build.sh even without -d:release
11:24:00	filwit	I just want to get the best compile-times for testing
11:24:22	fowl	weird
11:24:24	Araq_	no you want the most error checking for testing :P
11:24:29	fowl	i didnt know the power could be a float
11:24:40	Araq_	otherwise you could do: 'koch boot -d:quick'
11:25:20	filwit	doesn't koch extract files and stuff? or does -d:quick turn that off?
11:27:36	Araq_	'koch boot' does a full bootstrap (3 cycles) in debug mode
11:27:42	Araq_	no wonder it's slow ;-)
11:27:51	filwit	ya that's what I thought
11:28:10	filwit	-d:quick helped a lot though
11:28:25	filwit	but what's the fastest way to build the compiler?
11:28:37	filwit	koch boot -d:quick?
11:31:15	Araq_	nimrod c -d:quick compiler/nimrod.nim
11:31:17	Araq_	I think
11:31:26	Araq_	that saves you the cycling
11:31:40	Araq_	but the .exe will be in nimrod/compiler
11:31:49	Araq_	er, I mean:
11:32:15	Araq_	lol, no it's correct I think
11:32:45	filwit	k, let me try
11:33:21	filwit	btw... your build script is ginormous
11:33:33	filwit	:-V
11:34:10	filwit	why are you defining all the file paths manually?
11:34:34	filwit	nevermind... I don't want to think about that right now.
11:35:02	filwit	nor do I understand bash scripts much
11:35:16	Araq_	it's a generated script ...
11:35:34	filwit	ahh, that makes sense
11:38:14	filwit	yes the last code you gave works much faster, thanks
11:44:25	*	Trixar_za is now known as Trix[a]r_za
11:52:04	Araq_	argh
11:52:15	Araq_	filwit: how to serialize to xml in c#?
11:52:23	Araq_	the output should go into a file
11:54:00	filwit	http://support.microsoft.com/kb/815813
11:54:20	filwit	just write it to a file streamer instead of the console
11:54:21	apriori__	Araq_: out of curiosity... what are you doing in c#?
11:55:05	filwit	FileStream**
11:55:08	Araq_	never mind I found it
11:55:16	Araq_	stupid microsoft articles ...
11:55:42	Araq_	apriori__: sometimes I have to work for money ...
11:55:52	apriori__	Araq_: sad thing ;)
11:56:16	apriori__	as I said earlier.. I'm currently also working... yuck, java.....
11:57:10	apriori__	"java" should become an established synonym for "boilerplate code"
11:58:11	filwit	I'm okay with Java's naming conventions.. but the lack of structs and operators is horrible
11:58:27	apriori__	filwit: but operator overloading is horrible
11:58:47	apriori__	filwit: it could make math related code more readable
11:58:53	apriori__	that must not ever happen
11:58:56	filwit	you don't write math code I see :)
11:59:03	filwit	oh, lol
11:59:31	filwit	yes, for math code I would never use function calls
12:00:06	filwit	but that's not really Java's main problem, it's it's lack of structs
12:00:14	apriori__	well, I'm also a bit careful with operator overloading.. reuse established symbols wherever possible, and clearly document new introductions
12:00:43	filwit	though I hear the Server JIT can avoid heap allocation
12:00:57	apriori__	it can
12:00:59	Araq_	filwit: sometimes
12:01:01	filwit	yes, operator overloading can quickly be abused, that's true
12:01:09	apriori__	but some people just forget.. JIT is far from being "for free"
12:01:31	filwit	well, JIT compilers can be AOT compilers too
12:01:37	apriori__	AOT?
12:01:44	filwit	Ahead Of Time
12:01:47	apriori__	k
12:01:52	filwit	means compiler once, cache result
12:01:58	filwit	compile*
12:02:07	apriori__	yeah
12:02:26	filwit	actually, I think AOT compiling is the most logical
12:02:32	apriori__	actually, its not really those details that bother me about java
12:02:50	apriori__	its the philosophy of saying "object orientation above everything else" - no matter what.
12:03:12	filwit	meh, I'm used to C#
12:03:27	Araq_	and Java is not even a good OO language to begin with ...
12:03:43	apriori__	Araq_: which one is a better OO language in your opinion?
12:03:47	filwit	in some ways, I like Pure OOP code
12:04:05	apriori__	filwit: well, sometimes I like OOP... but not always
12:04:11	Araq_	Scala, but that's a bit unfair as it's much younger
12:04:25	filwit	mostly because with OOP you understand what's happening... Compiler.write vs write (File? IO?)
12:04:34	apriori__	I so often see examples, which just bloat a huge OOP model over a simple task, with no benefits what so ever
12:04:56	filwit	apriori__: documentation
12:04:58	fowl	check out io
12:05:05	fowl	http://iolanguage.com/
12:05:22	fowl	thats good oo :>
12:06:02	filwit	that's the one thing I don't like about abbreviations, it can be overdone without commenting documentation, then later someone has to do a bunch of research to figure out what's going on
12:06:21	apriori__	a proper documentation is better than using code as documentation
12:06:42	filwit	whereas with OOP and longer names, things can still be unclear, but on average you're better off
12:06:52	filwit	that is true
12:06:56	apriori__	depends on your way of thinking, I guess ;)
12:07:57	fowl	its about forward thinking for me, which is clearer: toString(length(someArray)) or someArray.length.toString
12:08:09	filwit	I just don't mind typing out full words, especially with Intelisense where you just press Tab to complete the word
12:08:11	*	Araq_ never found longer names improve anything ...
12:08:31	Araq_	filwit: intelisense can't *read* code for you ...
12:08:46	apriori__	Araq_: agreed on that one
12:08:55	filwit	actually, my mind ussually has a harder time typeing Abreviations because I auto-type the word without thinking and have to think about how to abriviate it
12:09:13	Araq_	I never type 'length' correctly :P
12:09:19	apriori__	well.. I don't randomly abbriviate either.
12:09:21	Araq_	abbrev ftw
12:09:22	filwit	Araq_: no, i mean when you have a function name that is longer
12:09:34	filwit	you only have to type out half the name and hit tab
12:10:05	filwit	oh, but you mean you don't like actually reading the code itself?
12:10:15	filwit	idk, to each his own
12:11:08	apriori__	really.. guys writing code like this should be shot in the head:
12:11:12	apriori__	path.append(PuzzleRuntimeParameters.getInstance().getProperty(PuzzleRuntimeParameters.RESULT_DIR, PuzzleRuntimeParameters.DEFAULT_RESULT_FILE_DIR)).append("/").append(PuzzleRuntimeParameters.getInstance().getProperty(PuzzleRuntimeParameters.INPUT_DIR, PuzzleRuntimeParameters.DEFAULT_INPUT_DIR)).append("/").append(doc.getPuzzleOrderType().getOrderNumber()).append(".xml");
12:11:17	apriori__	a single line
12:11:23	apriori__	total character count 390
12:11:58	filwit	fowl: io lang looks interesting
12:12:48	filwit	apriori__: lol
12:13:16	filwit	though to be honest, that's only bad because they didn't put returns in it
12:13:29	apriori__	hm?
12:13:46	filwit	jQuery would be unreadable if you strung everything together
12:13:58	apriori__	yeah..
12:14:06	apriori__	some proper formatting would already improve it
12:14:16	apriori__	there are dozens of lines like that
12:14:46	apriori__	anyway.. that's not my code and I'm not responsible for it.. so I won't fix such stuff either.
12:14:47	filwit	but there are some really redundant words in there, like 'get'
12:15:01	apriori__	filwit: don't get me started on the getter/setter discussion ;)
12:15:24	filwit	lol, ya I had that convention...
12:16:00	apriori__	the funny thing is.. there is a rule at my work, which says "getters and setters shall only get and set"...
12:16:06	apriori__	which makes like zero sense.
12:16:14	filwit	plus, why CAPATALIZE the enums if you're going to prefix every one with 'PuzzleRuntimeParameters'??
12:16:30	apriori__	no freaking idea
12:17:03	filwit	wait.. you have to write a get/set method for private fields?
12:17:12	filwit	instead of just making them public?
12:17:15	apriori__	yup
12:17:25	apriori__	makes sense, doesn't it?
12:17:34	filwit	wait, Java doesn't have C#'s property syntax does it?
12:17:37	apriori__	nope
12:17:48	filwit	ya, that blows monkey chunks
12:17:54	filwit	I feel for you man
12:17:59	apriori__	that's one of the reasons I suggested the synonym "boilderplate code" for java...
12:18:12	apriori__	actually.. its quite convenient to generate such mess using the IDE
12:18:21	apriori__	but in my opinion.. such mess shouldn't be needed in the first place
12:19:13	filwit	ya, I really don't understand how the most popular language out there (short of C) still hasn't added some basic features
12:19:53	filwit	idk, they probably don't like property syntax or something
12:20:03	apriori__	I don't know...
12:20:09	filwit	but beyond syntax, C# is just much faster
12:20:19	filwit	mostly because of Structs I think
12:20:36	apriori__	there is nothing wrong about transparently relaying all external access to internal members through property functions which read/write the members
12:20:59	filwit	there was a prototype project where some folks ported Android to Mono C# (which is slower than MS C#) and it ran like 20x faster
12:21:10	apriori__	well..
12:21:23	filwit	maybe not 20x...
12:21:27	apriori__	currently at my work we rewrite a project which was formely developed in C + C++
12:21:43	apriori__	in java.. and its already a hell lot slower and consumes like 10x more RAM
12:22:02	fowl	android ndk wrapper for nimrod would be cool
12:22:20	filwit	fowl: the NDK doesn't do everything you need
12:22:31	fowl	oh :/
12:22:35	apriori__	but since the guys at my work got the opinion "rather than thinking yet another day to increase the peformance by 5-10%, I'd just put an additional maschine at the task"
12:22:46	filwit	for instance, to play a sound, the NDK actually invokes the Java libs
12:23:16	filwit	which in turn, invoke driver level shit or libs or something like that
12:23:49	fowl	weird because the site said it was only recommended to use the ndk for performance critical things
12:24:11	filwit	yes, because performance critical things usually means math stuff
12:24:50	filwit	one sec, let me look something up
12:26:17	filwit	I'm not completely clear on what the NDK does and doesn't do (we use Mono Droid which does a lot for us)
12:26:43	filwit	but I know at some level you pretty much have to work with the SDK, because all of the userspace code is written in Java
12:27:42	filwit	so all Activity events have to pass through that, including OnPaint events, even though the NDK does have access to OpenGLES directly of course
12:28:48	Araq_	the Java stuff is always a bad joke ...
12:30:57	filwit	yes, we've had more problems with the Android and their API's than any other platform
12:31:53	filwit	even with MonoDroid doing pretty much all the work, Android is still pretty cluttered... it's like writing for PC where one device may support certain shader ops while another doesn't
12:32:14	apriori__	filwit: don't get me started on "shaders" either ;)
12:32:29	Araq_	see you later guys
12:32:33	*	Araq_ quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901])
12:32:34	apriori__	bye Araq
12:32:34	filwit	bye
12:33:17	filwit	Shaders are only a problem in GLSL and only then because everyone wants to make their own implimentations of OpenGL and only half follow the standard
12:33:34	filwit	while DirectX and HLSL usually just work as expected
12:34:18	filwit	even though I'm a big Linux fan, one of the biggest problems with the system is Driver and OpenGL support
12:34:20	apriori__	the problem with GLSL and OpenGL and OpenCL is simple.. its khronos.. and its incapability
12:34:47	filwit	well it's the same problem as the web really
12:34:54	apriori__	hm?
12:35:07	apriori__	you mean.. standardisation.. but pretty much ignorance of any standard?
12:35:09	filwit	you have like three major players who all want to make their own version and not share code
12:35:19	filwit	yes, that
12:35:32	apriori__	yeah..
12:35:39	apriori__	well, I actually never used directX etc.
12:36:00	filwit	so writing OpenGL code for Mac is usually pretty different that OpenGL for Linux or Windows (don't use OpenGL on Windows BTW, it sux)
12:36:02	apriori__	just because its wndows focused, which I don't accept when writing code
12:36:20	apriori__	currently I'm doing a project on university...
12:36:29	filwit	yes, I'm not a fan of Microsoft usually
12:36:31	apriori__	in which we use opengl and the program runs on mac, windows, linux and freebsd
12:36:49	filwit	so you think....
12:36:50	apriori__	and quite often the shader stuff was a pain in the ass
12:36:56	filwit	;)
12:37:19	apriori__	like.. different versions, different drivers with random issues, different shader compilers, different compiler behavior
12:37:29	apriori__	the funniest compiler definetly was my nvidia driver on linux
12:37:47	apriori__	which accepted _everything_... even mixed GLSL versions and created the proper semantics out of that.
12:37:56	filwit	Open Source drivers or Proprietary?
12:38:01	apriori__	proprieatary
12:38:13	apriori__	the open source ones are by far the best when it comes to standard conformance
12:38:20	filwit	oh ya, the NVidia drivers will eat pretty much and GLSL code you give it
12:38:30	filwit	while the ATi ones are the pickest thing on the planet
12:38:42	filwit	you get one thing wrong and it dies
12:38:45	apriori__	the mesa one for the ati card of one of the project guys was actually.. pedantic when it came to GLSL versions and what is supported by which
12:38:59	filwit	and it's usually different from ATi card to ATi card
12:39:11	apriori__	yeeh.. try the mesa one ;)
12:39:19	apriori__	its even more pedantic than ati's one
12:39:30	apriori__	but I even support that..
12:39:38	filwit	I have, it's not really and Option at this moment unless you target it
12:39:38	apriori__	be pedantic.. I don't care.. as long as its correct
12:39:40	filwit	nice
12:39:54	filwit	I feel your pain though
12:40:18	filwit	though I hear mesa's getting better now with Intel pushing development forward
12:40:20	apriori__	well, really.. somebody has to clean up this fucking mess the khronos group keeps constructing
12:40:38	apriori__	OpenCL is yet another abomination...
12:40:49	filwit	I've never used OpenCL
12:40:58	apriori__	khronos stripped like 90% of the design from GLSL
12:41:07	filwit	lol, I see
12:41:16	apriori__	which implies.. all that mess with uploading source code, incompatible designers.. a weak DSL
12:41:27	apriori__	not even support for c-style #include
12:41:41	apriori__	so you always need string templates to write actually maintainable code
12:42:13	filwit	you'd think they'd hack on the GCC or something and get it to work for them...
12:42:25	apriori__	I really doubt that
12:42:32	apriori__	khronos never did such things
12:42:37	apriori__	it just pushed out a C lib
12:42:58	filwit	ya
12:43:08	apriori__	with OpenCL they actually realized, that the C lib is a such a mess, that they really wrote an official C++-wrapper
12:43:22	filwit	still, I wish more folks up stairs would learn to play nice with Open Source projects
12:43:25	apriori__	which uses a hell lot of template and traits magic to simplyfy all that messy buffer management
12:43:48	filwit	it would make life easier for everyone if there was a more universal and open code base
12:43:57	apriori__	well..
12:43:58	filwit	for core things like rendering to a GPU
12:44:14	apriori__	I am in the open source community for a long time now..
12:44:34	apriori__	though I never really joined an open source development effort besides creating a linux distribution and sending in minor patches
12:45:09	apriori__	the open source community is not easy to deal with.. because its so against the commercial philosophy of most companies
12:45:23	apriori__	and quite often both sides simply don't understand each other...
12:45:50	apriori__	the open source guys oversimplyfy with "let all be free".. which is just pure utopia
12:46:14	filwit	meh, I'm an idealist with similar goals :)
12:46:26	apriori__	well, I can see the point
12:46:31	apriori__	e.g., with NVIDIA.. I can understand why they simply don't want to release their drivers source code...
12:46:35	filwit	but I understand that practically speaking, it's unrealistic atm
12:46:36	fowl	i use linux out of poorness
12:46:41	fowl	[:
12:47:01	apriori__	because its pretty much the only advantage over ATI.. ati, since I know them, always had sucky drivers.. but better hardware than NVIDIA
12:47:51	filwit	ya I was thinking the same thing with this recent NVidia AMD discussions on Phoronix
12:48:23	apriori__	and people just don't get.. when NVIDIA says "we don't want to release it, because it contains IP and research and stuff"... its so damn true. sure one can just dissamble the driver and reverse engineer it.. but one sees with nouveau, how long that takes.
12:49:14	filwit	well that's not exactly true, right?
12:49:25	apriori__	well, I think so
12:49:27	filwit	don't most drivers require special compilers?
12:49:36	apriori__	what do you mean?
12:49:48	filwit	well it's not like they can build it with the GCC
12:50:02	apriori__	well.. that's more firmware related stuff
12:50:05	filwit	they have their own in-house compilers that build the source to binary
12:50:15	filwit	so even if they released the source
12:50:16	apriori__	well, maybe.
12:50:22	apriori__	I doubt that would be the actual problem.
12:50:59	apriori__	the problem is just.. having code "encoded" into ASM is much better than having it readable as plain text.. for everyone to make sense out of it.
12:51:00	filwit	unless they release the compiler source as well (which is pobably third party) then it would only help the Linux community understand had to help
12:51:32	apriori__	I mean.. really... dissamble even only a quite small application... and compare the disasm output of it with the actual code. you need a hell lot longer to make any sense out of the ASM
12:51:42	apriori__	yeah, that are the other issues
12:52:02	apriori__	IP... cooperations with other companies which would not want a public release
12:52:32	filwit	one other issue is that the chips designes are mostly understood, but the manufactoring techniques are not (so i've heard)
12:52:50	filwit	not that the chips are fully understood, obviously
12:52:54	apriori__	yeah.. it's much simpler to design a chip than to build it
12:53:02	apriori__	one friend explained that to me a while ago...
12:53:14	apriori__	its also the reason why its so damn hard to enter the chip business as a newcomer
12:53:28	filwit	ya, guarded secrets and all that
12:53:30	filwit	damn
12:53:33	apriori__	one needs very specific and unimaginable expensive radiation sources for chip manufacturing
12:53:39	filwit	that's why I'm support the Venu Project :)
12:53:45	filwit	but that'd a different topic
12:54:03	filwit	and maybe a bit unrealistic for today
12:54:24	apriori__	well, I don't think its "wrong" to dream...
12:54:31	apriori__	in fact.. it would be a very bad idea to stop it.
12:55:06	filwit	ah, see I think it's actually the most practical thing that can happen
12:55:22	filwit	not just some idealistic dream of utopia
12:55:35	apriori__	yeah, I know...
12:55:43	apriori__	but.. getting even way more off topic here...
12:55:48	filwit	anyways... ya
12:55:49	filwit	lol
12:56:13	apriori__	it won't happen that early... since we're far away from developing a "species mind"
12:56:25	fowl	a species mind
12:56:32	fowl	what is that, sounds freaky
12:56:53	filwit	see, that's what I think is a common mis-conceptions about the project and how it would realisticly work
12:56:57	apriori__	well, that we stop just only caring for ourselves and think about "what is good for humanity"
12:57:08	filwit	I don't think it's practical to rely on "the good of humanity"
12:57:27	apriori__	well, I think.. it would already change a hell lot
12:57:29	filwit	you'll always have cases, no matter how rare, which will potentially corrupt the sytem
12:57:42	filwit	you have to have security messures to guard against that sort of thing
12:58:14	filwit	to me, it has to work liek a repository, only one that distributes resources to projects of demostrable merit
12:58:23	filwit	without human opinion
12:58:25	apriori__	well, sure. but those would not really be needed if people would just follow a quite simple rules: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law."
12:59:06	apriori__	centralized resource management?
12:59:13	filwit	... now see... i can't even understand that...
12:59:14	filwit	lol
12:59:26	filwit	yes, a centralized resource management
12:59:32	apriori__	filwit: is english your mother language?
12:59:37	filwit	yes
12:59:47	filwit	I just didn't undestand that last part
12:59:47	apriori__	hm, then I guess, you just don't know the word "maxim"
13:00:15	filwit	no, it was the "will that it should become a universal law." bit
13:00:49	apriori__	rather understand it as: "act only according to that maxim, which you would, at the same time, like to become a universal law"
13:01:01	filwit	ah I see
13:01:13	apriori__	and about centralized resource management .. I think that's a very, very, very bad idea.
13:01:19	filwit	though I still think that's too philosophical for us to rely on
13:01:32	filwit	really?
13:01:37	apriori__	unless severe systematical changes would occur, which would make abuse of such power coming with that impossible
13:01:59	filwit	exactly though, the problem is the potential for abuse
13:02:30	apriori__	well, sadly.. history shows.. it's always a bad idea to centralise power
13:02:32	filwit	if you remove human involvement from the desicion making, you don't have potential for corruptions or abuse
13:02:45	apriori__	what should do the decisions then?
13:02:51	filwit	yes, but I like to think we haven't explored all our options yet
13:03:08	filwit	an simple algorithm
13:03:24	filwit	a very simple, open source, process
13:03:39	filwit	it's the one thing I'm not fully nailed down on, i admit
13:03:58	apriori__	well, that's the crucial part
13:04:03	filwit	because at any point, if a human "commity" or some such thing gets involved, then it falls apart
13:04:07	apriori__	because no human will accept overly external decision making
13:04:09	filwit	yes I agree
13:04:23	filwit	well, see my idea is this
13:04:53	filwit	if you only are concerned with feeding and housing youselves and helping others do the same
13:05:04	filwit	then the algorithm is very simple
13:05:22	filwit	weight the evidence (so long as it's transparent and repeatable)
13:05:40	filwit	and distribute resources to projects of most worth
13:06:05	apriori__	the problem is...
13:06:14	apriori__	"worth" is not really caclulateable
13:06:26	apriori__	because its very subjective
13:06:38	filwit	ah, but it is because it's based on what we want
13:06:49	apriori__	yes, simple because we're individuals
13:06:55	apriori__	and how I hope you don't want to stop that :)
13:06:57	filwit	so all we do, is go to a website and vote for projects
13:06:59	filwit	:)
13:07:24	apriori__	well, that would be a pretty much direct democracy
13:07:26	filwit	of course, projects which supply needs, like food services take presidence
13:08:11	apriori__	the problem with such systems is... if you would require to vote on everything, development will pretty much stop
13:08:23	apriori__	because people are so busy informing themselves about the projects
13:08:28	filwit	well no, because the projects would be devided into catagories
13:08:51	apriori__	well, maybe.. but even then.. you would require a minimim vote count
13:09:03	apriori__	and such a system would provoke "popularity" abuse
13:09:12	filwit	well, it's not based on pure votes
13:09:18	filwit	the votes only help direct the system
13:09:19	apriori__	then what?
13:09:25	filwit	on merit of the method
13:09:33	filwit	so basically I think of it like this:
13:09:46	filwit	There is 5 ponds of raw steel
13:09:57	filwit	Bob has a method of turning that into 1 Bike
13:10:08	filwit	Fred has a method of turning that into 2 Bikes
13:10:14	filwit	Everyone wants a bike
13:10:31	apriori__	well
13:10:39	filwit	so basically, Freds method is given the steel
13:10:45	apriori__	that would suffer from the usual "everyone wants everything" problem
13:10:48	filwit	because his is demostrable better
13:10:52	filwit	(transparency is key)
13:11:04	filwit	well that's where the algorim comes in
13:11:15	filwit	it simply won't dish out to every project
13:11:20	apriori__	you didn't quite describe that "magical algorithm" :)
13:11:24	filwit	it's the same software that warehouses use today
13:11:40	apriori__	you mean that prediction algo?
13:11:53	apriori__	which calculates the need for restockings?
13:12:33	filwit	yes, and distributing a limited supply to stores with need it most
13:12:52	filwit	(in the case of stocking today, which ones have the most potential to sell product)
13:13:05	apriori__	hm..
13:13:17	apriori__	I doubt that's so easy
13:13:23	filwit	I'm sure it's not
13:13:33	filwit	but I alwso think it's to close to pass up
13:13:48	filwit	there's probably an elegant solution in there somewhere
13:13:57	apriori__	well, maybe...
13:14:03	apriori__	but humans won't like that...
13:14:06	apriori__	I can assure you ;)
13:14:19	filwit	possible, but then human only like what gives them the most stuff
13:14:31	apriori__	I'm quite sure about that...
13:14:56	filwit	and if you slowly build a system wich is more effecient than ours today, then they will eventually be one over because they'll see the personal gain
13:15:18	filwit	at the end of the day, it's has to be better than our system now, or people wont for for it
13:15:20	apriori__	I've seen some quite intriguing behaviour of my nephew, when he was just 2 years old.
13:15:24	filwit	which means it has to be proven
13:15:33	filwit	and that means it has to slowly evolve to get there
13:15:43	apriori__	I mean, that venus project video tells "nobody get's born with greed etc."...
13:15:58	apriori__	but I've seen quite different things from little children... small children are utmost selfish.
13:16:31	apriori__	yeah, maybe.. but currently we're more slowly evoling in yet another hell.
13:16:36	filwit	yes I think many members of the Venus Project and Zeitgeist Movement are fooling themselves
13:16:40	apriori__	*evolving
13:16:58	filwit	yes, unfortunatly
13:17:32	filwit	if you ever have a few hours to kill, I recomend watching "where we're going" by Peter Josphen on Youtube
13:17:36	apriori__	and I really doubt that "technology" will solve any of these issues...
13:17:50	filwit	it's one of the more technical explanations for a "Resource Based Economy"
13:18:06	filwit	but it's also flawed in my opinion, or I should say, incomplete
13:18:26	filwit	what do you mean by "technology"?
13:19:08	apriori__	well, our last focus of the last century was primarily evolving technologically., but in my opinion, the humans mind and spirit doesn't quite catch up.
13:19:53	apriori__	if you see the behavior of human kind as a whole.. its like a small, very bad educated children
13:20:00	filwit	see I look at it a bit differently, I think that humans have been placed into a world we're unfamiliar with, we're not adapted yet, and we're like children learning to play nice
13:20:18	filwit	yes, I agree
13:20:22	apriori__	that might be the more optimistic view :)
13:20:34	filwit	:)
13:20:44	filwit	honestly though, I think most humans are good at heart
13:20:46	apriori__	sure we're not adapted yet
13:20:51	filwit	we just have problems picturing it all
13:20:59	apriori__	but with technology evolving ever faster.. we won't ever catch upt with that.
13:21:01	filwit	it's hard to imagine some starving kid in africa
13:21:18	filwit	when everyone you know, and everything you're around your entire life isn't anything like that
13:21:31	filwit	well, maybe we wont
13:21:38	filwit	but hopefully our kids will
13:21:44	filwit	or their kids
13:21:54	filwit	maybe that'll be to late
13:22:04	filwit	but if you don't hope for that, what do you hope for?
13:22:14	apriori__	good question.
13:22:23	filwit	It's better to work towards that goal, than to give up IMO
13:22:38	apriori__	well, I don't quite give up...
13:22:50	apriori__	I just realize.. the influence one can get is very, very limited.
13:23:06	apriori__	especially in our current time and its utterly flawed values in nearly every aspect
13:23:11	filwit	we'll all die someday and we can find out what's on the other side, for now, it's important that we improve life for what we know and care about: our friends and family
13:23:29	apriori__	yup
13:24:07	filwit	that's true, but sometimes even a single person can start an avalanche
13:24:27	filwit	though he may not be responsible for all the power it yeilds
13:24:36	apriori__	yeah...
13:24:40	apriori__	that's quite rare though ;)
13:24:44	filwit	yes
13:25:04	filwit	I'm not thinking that's me, btw
13:25:17	apriori__	didn't understand that in that way.
13:25:31	filwit	but one thing I think has more impact that we give it credit for, is polite conversation
13:26:16	filwit	anyways...
13:26:36	filwit	how did we get here from OpenGL, eh?
13:27:00	filwit	btw, you said you use Linux
13:27:03	apriori__	the problem is.. with that (not even anymore, if you actually properly anaylze the actual basics of it) capitalistic system, we did a major mistake. current structures absolutely require that you are an egoist and pretty much bad human to become very (financially) succesful and thereby get influence. which pretty much resulted in having the worst of mankind in position of most influence
13:27:04	filwit	what distro you on?
13:27:19	apriori__	well..
13:27:24	apriori__	no idea, how we got there ^^
13:27:33	apriori__	but I like a good conversation ;)
13:27:39	apriori__	distro: arch linux
13:27:48	apriori__	I've gone through many already...
13:27:59	filwit	(completely agree with you illustration of capatalism btw)
13:28:10	filwit	cool, me too. Just installed Arch again on my machine
13:28:18	filwit	dual booted with Win8 Preview
13:28:26	apriori__	oh
13:28:31	apriori__	yeah, got windows 7 for some gaming
13:28:40	filwit	ya me too
13:28:50	filwit	I kinda switched to Linux ~ a year ago
13:29:08	filwit	actually, it was because of the stuff we where talking about that I switched
13:29:13	filwit	or that I started playing with Linux
13:29:20	filwit	I stayed cause it's awesome though
13:30:02	filwit	but I never even considered using anything but Windows until I started thinking about Open Source and heard about the Venus Project
13:30:11	apriori__	former distros I tried/used: (started with an age of 14) redhat (gave up quickly), suse, debian, gentoo, freebsd (not really linux, I know :P), yoper (which I helped developing for about 2 years), slackware, mandriva, arch
13:30:19	apriori__	interesting..
13:30:30	apriori__	I came into contact with linux in school
13:30:40	filwit	it sorta bleh me away that there was a system out there that was completely free that was better in many ways than the one I had been paying for my entire life
13:30:41	apriori__	mainly because of financial reasons..
13:30:41	filwit	lol
13:30:59	apriori__	the school wasn't quite able to afford a 2nd computer pool room
13:31:06	apriori__	yeah, I can understand that
13:31:08	filwit	I tried Ubuntu and Fedora before Arch
13:31:15	apriori__	ah, forgot ubuntu
13:31:18	filwit	ya
13:31:19	apriori__	and I learned hating it :P
13:31:37	filwit	I actually just had that installed on this machine to try out 12.04
13:31:45	apriori__	still got it on my work laptop though, because I'm too lazy to properly maintain it
13:31:53	filwit	lol
13:32:10	apriori__	yeah, with linux...
13:32:16	apriori__	what I simply loved about it...
13:32:26	filwit	honestly, I want to make a Arch distro some day, that's build for grandmas to use (meaning it needs a software center with pics, ratings, etc)
13:32:28	apriori__	when I came into contact with it.. I started learning.. a hell lot.
13:32:51	filwit	LOL, god. I learned everything I know about Linux from Arch
13:33:01	filwit	just by trying to install the damn thing
13:33:06	apriori__	yeah, my path was quite.. different ;)
13:33:17	filwit	school?
13:33:24	apriori__	suse was like a blackbox for a linux system.. but extremely open compared to windows of course
13:33:35	apriori__	quite early we didn't like suse anymore
13:33:54	apriori__	and we switched the entire computer pool room which I maintained with another collegue to debian
13:33:59	apriori__	and.. then we started learning...
13:34:08	apriori__	we were very short on resources
13:34:14	apriori__	only pentiums with 150 MHz etc.
13:34:18	apriori__	maxium was 233
13:34:19	filwit	why did you switch them to linux btw?
13:34:25	filwit	what did they have one them before?
13:34:29	apriori__	nothing...
13:34:35	filwit	ahh, i c
13:34:38	apriori__	consider that a room made of scrap :)
13:34:49	filwit	lol, 150mhz....
13:34:52	apriori__	old, used pcs
13:35:02	apriori__	by that time.. the windows pool room already had 1GHz machines
13:35:26	apriori__	yeah.. star office and later open office was no fun on a 233 MHz machine
13:35:37	apriori__	and well, we used icewm as window manager
13:35:52	apriori__	with a lot of scripts for basic tasks.. like mounting etc.
13:35:54	filwit	that's all way before my Linux days
13:36:01	apriori__	these were the times in which no auto mount existed
13:36:11	apriori__	hehe, ok
13:36:12	filwit	I came in when Gnome Shell was just about to be released
13:36:25	apriori__	yeah, mounting was pretty much the most.. challenging for windows users
13:36:35	apriori__	gnome shell? hell.. that's late ;)
13:36:53	filwit	ya, kinda a newb :-V
13:37:00	apriori__	ah, whatever
13:37:05	filwit	though I know computers, so it works
13:37:11	apriori__	yeah...
13:37:19	apriori__	well.. I learned many basics of linux back then...
13:37:23	apriori__	down to the kernel level
13:37:33	apriori__	which changed a hell lot in that time
13:37:51	apriori__	starting with the 2.6 series.. it gained much momentum
13:38:05	apriori__	but ... some problems are still not fixed.. more than 10 years later
13:38:13	apriori__	still the sound system is utter junk
13:38:22	apriori__	still the gui api situation is junk
13:38:38	filwit	AMD seems to be the worse
13:38:40	apriori__	still the inter-distro standardisation is junk
13:38:51	apriori__	I really meant GUI, not drivers..
13:39:12	apriori__	back when I was working at yoper..
13:39:13	filwit	My brothers AMD + NVidia machine atually gets higher frame rates with OpenGL on Arch than on Win8 with DirectX
13:39:24	apriori__	I tried to establish a dialogue between distros...
13:39:37	apriori__	in order to come up with a shared. compatible packaging system...
13:39:45	apriori__	but those discussions ended quite early
13:40:07	apriori__	yeah, you remember when I talked about that university project a while ago?
13:40:13	filwit	ya
13:40:29	apriori__	its a solid body simulation solving huge differential equations etc.
13:40:38	filwit	nice
13:40:40	apriori__	that one runs 50% faster on linux than on windows.. on the same machine
13:40:55	apriori__	all because of different thread scheduling etc.
13:41:10	filwit	what versions fo Windows and Linux btw?
13:41:20	apriori__	windows 7, latest updates
13:41:24	apriori__	latest arch
13:41:27	filwit	wow really?
13:41:29	filwit	nice
13:41:37	filwit	I was expecting XP or 2000
13:41:44	apriori__	yeah, I guess the problem lies in the windows implementation of OpenMP
13:41:48	apriori__	I guess.. it simply sucks ;)
13:42:08	filwit	OpenMP?
13:42:28	apriori__	C, C++ annotations via pragma for automatic parallel execution of sections (e.g. for loops)
13:42:29	filwit	just looked it up
13:43:06	filwit	is it mostly used for science applications?
13:43:15	filwit	or server stuff?
13:43:33	apriori__	more science applications..
13:43:39	apriori__	but its simply.. a matter of convenience
13:43:48	filwit	right
13:43:51	apriori__	you just annotate a for loop to run in parallel.. and done
13:43:55	apriori__	no manual thread management etc.
13:44:08	filwit	I see
13:44:22	apriori__	but.. apparently, like I read in a microsoft documentation, microsoft's implementation doesn't quite seem to properly reuse thread pools
13:44:27	apriori__	so its not really only "scheduling"
13:45:48	filwit	well I know LuxRender for Blender renders faster on Linux than Windows
13:46:10	filwit	unfortunatly my AMD drivers usually get worse performance in Blender itself
13:46:20	apriori__	well, you will really see a difference, if you increase the processor count
13:46:21	filwit	and any 3D application
13:46:30	filwit	ya
13:46:31	apriori__	plain windows 7 is not up to more than 8 cores
13:46:45	filwit	that's the max?
13:46:53	apriori__	I read that somewhere...
13:46:57	apriori__	don't quite know, though
13:46:58	filwit	interesting
13:47:08	apriori__	so take that unverified ;)
13:47:12	filwit	It might just be the settings for the Desktop version
13:47:24	apriori__	yeah.. for most desktops it should be enough
13:47:28	apriori__	in the liftetime of windows 7
13:47:58	filwit	I used to help out the tech support folks at my company, and Windows Server can be pretty secure if you lock it up right
13:48:14	filwit	but the Desktop additions aren't set up that way at all
13:48:39	filwit	only the Windows 2008 Server additions are setup that way
13:49:04	filwit	anyways, idk about all that stuff
13:49:25	filwit	an administrator guy used to tell me all about it (he was big into Windows stuff)
13:49:27	apriori__	I saw windows server in "action" in a hospital...with an IT team of fools
13:49:36	filwit	lol
13:49:45	apriori__	that was quite funny.. when I guessed the main domain password in just 3 tries...
13:49:59	apriori__	which sounds stupid, I know.. but it was that god damn simple
13:49:59	filwit	hahaha
13:50:14	filwit	probably the nurses name right?
13:50:19	apriori__	nope
13:50:21	apriori__	city name
13:50:24	filwit	lol
13:50:29	filwit	of course
13:50:37	apriori__	1 try was the bosses name
13:50:40	apriori__	2 the hospital name
13:50:41	apriori__	3 city
13:51:24	apriori__	I just tried it though, after the only collegue in that group with a brain told me.. "come on.. try guessing it!"
13:51:36	apriori__	so I knew beforehand.. it had to be something obvious
13:51:44	apriori__	otherwise I wouldn't waste time on trying ^^
13:51:49	filwit	ya
13:52:22	filwit	I've looked at a lot of doctors email/passwords
13:52:35	filwit	usually they're all their lastname or wife's name
13:52:39	filwit	or something like that
13:52:52	apriori__	the stations passwords were the most funny ones
13:52:54	filwit	it's actually funny how many just use their username
13:52:57	filwit	as their password
13:53:14	apriori__	hehe, yeah
13:53:17	apriori__	they we're actually written on a post-it and pinned to the monitor...
13:53:24	filwit	lol
13:53:40	filwit	hahah, you reminded me of my first job
13:53:48	apriori__	and.. not funny enough, they were: "station%stationnumber%" "1234567"
13:54:44	filwit	nice
13:54:45	apriori__	btw, where are you from, filwit?
13:54:58	filwit	well right now I live in Florida, US
13:55:07	apriori__	uff.. I feel for you, mean ;)
13:55:23	apriori__	ohm, man, I meant
13:55:24	filwit	but I'm originally from Oregon, and I've lived in Texas and Iowa
13:55:37	filwit	whatever, I love it here in Florida!
13:55:44	filwit	sunshine all year round :)
13:55:50	apriori__	am I right that texas tends to be a bit more.. orthodox?
13:55:56	apriori__	yeah, I can imagine that.
13:56:03	apriori__	I more meant the country
13:56:07	apriori__	and its.. "administration"
13:56:46	filwit	ya, Texas is a bit much if you're on the outside of "Fundamental Christian"
13:56:59	apriori__	^^
13:57:24	filwit	and the State board is crazy, and so it the local government
13:57:38	apriori__	well.. I'm more.. agnostic
13:57:53	filwit	ya, me as well.
13:58:03	apriori__	well, german goverment it also far from being any sane at all
13:58:04	filwit	though back when I lived there I wasn't
13:58:06	apriori__	*is
13:58:10	filwit	so It wasn't too bad
13:58:51	filwit	ah, I hear most European countries are pretty open
13:59:05	filwit	(open to others i mean)
13:59:17	filwit	but maybe that's just something you hear in the states
13:59:21	apriori__	I've not anything against people believing in something, unless: 1) they don't accept people who don't believe it 2) they absuse their believe as excuse or 3) they are inconsequent in it
13:59:37	apriori__	depends on what you mean with "open to others"
14:00:18	filwit	well, I've lived in many places in the US, here in Florida people could give a damn what you are and what you think (except those in-state)
14:01:02	apriori__	hm.. snce english is not my mother language, I don't quite understand that sentencde
14:01:06	filwit	but in places like Texas and Iowa, if you're not a beer guzzlin, foot-ball watching, christ feering Man, then there's something wrong with you
14:01:14	filwit	but that's not everyone
14:01:17	apriori__	"give a damn" in that sense.. so, do they give a damn.. or don't they?
14:01:46	filwit	they don't
14:01:49	filwit	not in florida
14:01:54	filwit	means they don't care
14:02:01	filwit	there's too many people here
14:02:17	filwit	too many different cultures and backgrounds
14:02:39	apriori__	yeah, quite the same here in germany...
14:02:41	filwit	don't get me wrong, there's lots of run-down neighbor hoods that are bad
14:02:42	apriori__	with some exceptions though
14:02:56	filwit	but most people you meet are nice and open-minded
14:03:26	apriori__	that's what I hear from some friends which visited the US...
14:03:33	apriori__	they were in california and florida
14:03:59	filwit	well see, those are the two most open-minded places (besides Oregon and Washington)
14:04:09	filwit	because of all the people
14:04:32	filwit	but there's crazy people everywhere in the world
14:05:03	filwit	here it just seems like we round up all the ones in our country, and elect them for office XD
14:05:20	apriori__	^^
14:05:30	apriori__	frankly...
14:05:54	apriori__	not even 10 horses could pull me into the US to live there.
14:05:58	apriori__	no matter where...
14:06:04	filwit	lol
14:06:18	apriori__	not with the goverment you have there..
14:06:29	apriori__	and the former 3.. and likely the next 3
14:06:45	apriori__	but I don't mean that as an insult.. I hope you understand that.
14:06:55	filwit	ya, it's getting kinda crazy with all the legal bullshit they're putting into our laws these days
14:07:13	apriori__	well, things also change over hear.. to the worse.
14:07:15	filwit	and all the drug related "crimes" that people go to prison for...
14:07:24	apriori__	but.. in my eyes the US are already way beyond that
14:07:38	apriori__	I mean.. just take the latest NDAA
14:07:41	apriori__	its just mad
14:07:52	filwit	see, this is something I really can't stand about Americans
14:08:08	filwit	actually, it's not just Americans, it's most people
14:08:22	apriori__	like?
14:08:31	filwit	why would I be offended that you think the government that runs the place I'm in is crazy?
14:08:48	filwit	I didn't have any say on who was in office really
14:09:02	filwit	but I see so many Americans with this stupid pride
14:09:24	apriori__	actually.. that's the sole reason why I just made that clear.
14:09:37	apriori__	because I made the same experience .. especially with americans.
14:09:50	filwit	ya, i hear ya
14:10:22	apriori__	interesting thing is.. there is an american in my project group at university
14:10:35	apriori__	I talk with him alot about US politics and foreign policy etc.
14:11:22	apriori__	he is not really a "proud" american, one can say.
14:12:06	filwit	lol, I have to show you this video...
14:12:11	filwit	one sec
14:13:04	filwit	do you guys say a pledge of allegiance to Germany in grade school?
14:13:26	filwit	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=618U-_8o31k
14:13:32	apriori__	hell, no
14:13:37	filwit	^ funny, and so true
14:13:57	filwit	^ this is why so many americans are so "patriotic"
14:14:28	apriori__	well, partriotism is unfortunately quite often synonym to stupidity
14:14:49	apriori__	I mean... who the fuck is proud on where ones parent fucked? it's just ridiculous
14:15:18	filwit	hahaha, amen to that
14:15:47	filwit	seriously, patriostism is a really really silly concept that's hundreds of years out of date
14:15:55	apriori__	sure...
14:16:07	apriori__	guess what.. we germans learned that by hard.
14:16:16	apriori__	therefore.. you hardly every hear that word in germany
14:16:29	apriori__	because it instantly get's that 2nd tone of nationalism
14:16:42	apriori__	*hardly ever
14:16:52	filwit	yeah I guess I never thought about how that must effect the population now
14:17:21	apriori__	well... the german feeling for guilt is quite obvious, pretty much everywhere.
14:17:35	apriori__	everywhere in its foreign policy, economic policy.. the policy in the EU etc.
14:18:06	filwit	heh, it's not like you did those things to the Jews
14:18:28	apriori__	sure not... but its a historic burden.
14:18:30	filwit	one thing I don't agree with is paying for your father's sins
14:18:37	filwit	that's true
14:18:38	apriori__	and the "allies" make sure, germany won't ever forget that..
14:19:00	apriori__	I mean.. just take a look at EUs press releases, especially in britains tabloid papers
14:19:20	apriori__	I know those are harldy intellectual, but they represent the peoples spirit in a way...
14:19:24	filwit	like most americans, I have very little clue as to what goes on outside of the US
14:19:42	filwit	unfortunately
14:19:49	apriori__	like, when germany wins a soccer game against england, the tabloids release headlines like "NAZY bombers strike again"
14:19:59	filwit	LOL
14:20:04	apriori__	I'm not kidding
14:20:09	filwit	hahaha
14:20:14	filwit	that's fucked up
14:20:17	apriori__	indeed
14:20:52	filwit	anyways, guess it sells
14:21:04	filwit	have you ever seen Fox News?
14:21:17	apriori__	while I think (I'm actually only half german, half pakistani) germany was guilty in many ways for the 2 wars, many other countries were not quite as unguilty for that as they think
14:21:22	apriori__	yes, quite often
14:21:31	apriori__	I often see some excerpts on youtube etc.
14:21:37	apriori__	I try to follow the US situation as well
14:21:41	filwit	I use to work for a guy who acted exactly like some of those guys on Fox news
14:21:42	filwit	...
14:22:07	apriori__	uff
14:22:10	filwit	ya
14:22:21	apriori__	well, fox news is clear show business...
14:22:56	filwit	actually, my dad (didn't grow up with him), is actually more like Westboror Babtist Church (sometimes, he's a little crazy and goes back and forth)
14:23:17	apriori__	hm.. I don't quite understand?
14:23:31	filwit	hmmm...
14:23:33	apriori__	he is more.. conversative (let's say in the american sense)?
14:24:01	apriori__	in what way is he "a litte crazy"?
14:24:38	filwit	http://www.issues.cc/uploads/63014530137.jpg
14:24:54	apriori__	oh...
14:24:57	apriori__	crazy in that way?
14:25:03	filwit	yes
14:25:05	filwit	sometimes
14:25:43	filwit	anyways, my mother (who I did grow up with) is ver religious too, but not like that
14:26:13	filwit	so I know very well how crazy some people here can be
14:27:00	filwit	I guess just different issues in different places
14:27:03	apriori__	I have 3 points further up.. (hope you read them) about people with beliefs :)
14:27:15	apriori__	actually.. there is nothing completely wrong with being religious
14:27:21	filwit	oh, one sec
14:27:37	apriori__	15:59:08] <apriori__> I've not anything against people believing in something, unless: 1) they don't accept people who don't believe it 2) they absuse their believe as excuse or 3) they are inconsequent in it
14:27:56	filwit	oh yes, I read that
14:28:06	filwit	I'm actually an Atheist myself
14:28:26	apriori__	I once, was, too..
14:28:30	filwit	but I don't grudge people for believing in things
14:28:30	apriori__	but turned into agnostic
14:28:37	apriori__	yeah.. thats the other point
14:28:47	apriori__	I somehow want to distance myself from people doing just that
14:28:47	filwit	well, I'm actually both :)
14:29:03	filwit	I'm an Agnostic Athiest
14:29:20	filwit	thought I suppose one is the better term because the other describes what i'm not
14:29:25	apriori__	^^
14:29:48	filwit	honestly, I don't care much about religious things these days
14:29:58	apriori__	well, me neither...
14:30:06	filwit	I did when I was a bit younger, because I was raised very strongly christian
14:30:17	apriori__	though.. I once had a girl friend (although only quite short time) which was religious
14:30:34	apriori__	well, there are at least some good things in that...
14:30:41	apriori__	the development of proper moral values etc.
14:30:52	apriori__	but quite often my point 3) applies
14:31:15	filwit	yes, I agree with you free points
14:31:24	filwit	three**
14:31:29	apriori__	and.. I've I say about myself, that I bow to strict principles and don't do it, that I'm a hypocrite
14:31:34	apriori__	*if I say
14:31:50	apriori__	grr, I'm too stupid to type, today:
14:31:56	filwit	no worries
14:31:59	apriori__	and.. If I say about myself, that I bow to strict principles and don't do it, then I'm a hypocrite
14:32:02	apriori__	so
14:33:18	filwit	these days I care much more abou the Venus Project stuff we where talking about earlier than anything religious
14:33:29	filwit	mostly because I think it's thinking about a solution
14:33:36	filwit	rather than focusing on a problem
14:33:42	apriori__	yeah...praying won't solve anything
14:34:04	apriori__	politics won't either ;)
14:34:14	filwit	yep
14:34:19	apriori__	e.g.
14:34:21	apriori__	take the EU
14:34:32	apriori__	(you said, you don't know that much of what is happening elsewhere)
14:34:45	filwit	yes, virtually nothing
14:34:51	apriori__	once only a monetary union.. is now slowly formed into a super state
14:35:03	apriori__	and I'm completely against that
14:35:18	filwit	ah yes
14:35:37	apriori__	even.. many EU countries somehow feel more and more controlled by germany.. and its big influence in the EU parlament
14:36:19	filwit	interesting, didn't know Germany had such a major role in the EU
14:36:30	apriori__	and I agree on that. germany is the most powerful country in the EU, the strongest economy etc.. but we don't know jack about the life of people in say spain.. so we shouldn't have influence on their internal stuff.
14:36:32	apriori__	yet we do.
14:36:39	filwit	AH! The Nazis are rising again!
14:36:49	apriori__	hehe
14:36:54	filwit	:P
14:36:56	apriori__	should be a english head line
14:37:04	apriori__	but sadly enough...
14:37:10	apriori__	these are current headlines in greece
14:37:16	apriori__	and I completely understand them.
14:37:20	filwit	what's up with greece?
14:37:28	apriori__	greece is in dept.. massively
14:37:37	filwit	ya, right, I heard that
14:37:38	apriori__	ohm, debt
14:37:47	filwit	something like 40% unemployment right?
14:37:52	filwit	crazy
14:37:57	apriori__	yup, that's only youth unemployment
14:38:06	apriori__	the problem lies in the very beginning of the EU, in its construction
14:38:23	apriori__	when it was created.. germany already was the strongest country in the EU
14:39:15	apriori__	and by creating a shared currency.. pretty much any EU country (which is in the monetary union.. e.g. england is an exception here) could take credits with the interest rates of the german economy, no matter how strong their economy actually was
14:40:06	apriori__	therefore, several countries, like greece, italy, spain, portugual and ireland took massive credits.. so many, which their economy couldn't actually pay back properly.
14:40:34	filwit	heh, just good business, right?
14:40:40	filwit	(jk)
14:40:42	apriori__	and that's the actual root of the problem. those countries lived way above their power.. and also the germany economy can't sustain that
14:40:47	apriori__	pretty much
14:41:01	filwit	well it's true
14:41:05	filwit	it's like you said before
14:41:14	filwit	our system premotes egotism
14:41:27	apriori__	yeah, but I just want to describe..
14:41:28	filwit	the domination for that sake alone
14:41:35	apriori__	there is no real "guilt" this time with germany
14:41:42	filwit	because to be the dominate, is to be respected
14:42:04	filwit	I guess that's nothing new, but it also shouldn't be premoted in government
14:42:14	apriori__	those other countries put themselves into a huge pile of mess.. and someone needs to resolve it.
14:42:16	apriori__	yeah, right.
14:42:27	apriori__	the problem with the monetary union is, though...
14:42:35	apriori__	there is no "legal" way out of it
14:43:23	apriori__	the usual way, a country would solve such mess, is by devalualing its currency (we just ignore how little sense that globally makes, like, intantly saying work there is worth less than elsewhere)
14:44:16	apriori__	the EU parlament enforces austerity measures on greece
14:44:41	apriori__	like.. spare this sum in your goverment, or we won't pay you the next chunk of credit etc.
14:45:38	apriori__	from a simple monetary standpoint, it absolutely makes sense to enforce that... but the problem is, its completely undemocratic. the EU get's completely control over greece
14:46:43	filwit	in effect, you've bought their country
14:46:52	apriori__	not only germany.. but the EU
14:47:01	filwit	now you have legal slaves
14:47:05	apriori__	and in a way.. since germany has so massive influence... in a way germany.
14:47:20	apriori__	yeah, it's unacceptable
14:47:49	apriori__	clearly.. greece made mistakes.. but they just simple be left out of that monetary stupidity union
14:48:32	filwit	Western civilization has been exploiting cheap labor for years
14:48:34	apriori__	furthermore.. the finance system in the EU is corrupt..
14:48:42	filwit	so I guess this is just an evolution of that
14:48:48	filwit	only against itself
14:48:49	apriori__	well, maybe.
14:48:58	apriori__	yeah.. its just against the weaker..
14:49:02	apriori__	through monetary measures
14:49:09	apriori__	and they talk about "saving greece"
14:49:09	filwit	yes
14:49:11	apriori__	and crap like
14:49:17	filwit	ha
14:49:20	apriori__	"if the euro dies, so does the EU"
14:49:28	filwit	saving their funds into a bank maybe
14:49:34	apriori__	that's the point
14:49:35	apriori__	I mean...
14:49:40	apriori__	one can just outrage...
14:50:00	apriori__	the current italian minister of finance.. is a former hedgefond banker
14:50:28	apriori__	he was not voted in or anything
14:50:31	apriori__	he just got control
14:50:55	filwit	yes, see it's exactly this soft of thing that a new system needs to guard against
14:51:04	apriori__	also.. the former president of the EU.. was a former banker....
14:51:47	apriori__	really... constructing a new system from scratch will take hundreds of years
14:51:48	filwit	in theory, we have check and balance to stop that from happening right now, but because the entire system is based around election and the friends of the elected...
14:52:09	apriori__	if.. we survive that long.. given how fast the destruction of rights etc.. progresses
14:52:31	filwit	idk, I think things may change a bit faster than taht
14:52:44	apriori__	idk...
14:52:47	filwit	though I don't expect them to happen suddenly, nor do I want them too
14:52:50	apriori__	what I just told you about the EU...
14:53:01	filwit	I would never support a new system unless it was proven to be effective
14:53:04	apriori__	I hardly believe more than 5% of the EU actually know such stuff
14:53:25	apriori__	nor actually understand the implications
14:53:45	apriori__	yes.. but thats another point, why progress is so damn difficult
14:54:08	apriori__	there are politics who are sane.. but they don't get a chance, because people think "your idea is too utopic"
14:54:44	filwit	it doesn't matter what they think, this is what I meant by it being purely practical
14:54:53	apriori__	or, people vote for such a guy.. he gets the power/influence and starts implementing the solution, which will take longer to succeed (say like 10 years, when he is supposed to have this place for only 4 years until reelection)
14:55:15	apriori__	and people just run out of patience
14:55:26	filwit	it has to be built, and work, and start on it's own accord
14:55:37	apriori__	nor actually understand.. that the mess we did in the last decades won't be resolved in 4 years
14:55:42	filwit	meaning it needs to be external from the rest of government
14:55:50	apriori__	hm
14:56:04	filwit	see, I completely agree with what you're saying
14:56:06	apriori__	like a second system starting in parallel?
14:56:25	filwit	it will never happen if people start trying to vote something new into "power"
14:56:26	apriori__	and it would some day obsolete the other one?
14:56:32	filwit	or it will just get corrupted
14:56:57	filwit	what has to happen, is something completely unique, and completely technical has to be started
14:57:06	apriori__	well, maybe.
14:57:10	filwit	like just a website which takes in and distributes resources to projects
14:57:15	filwit	donated resources
14:57:16	apriori__	but I also see great danger in that...
14:57:19	filwit	or somethign like that
14:57:32	apriori__	people having influence today.. won't just give that up.
14:57:45	apriori__	so such a new system will be corrupted from the beginning on
14:57:57	filwit	and yes, eventually, people will start to gradually support this system more and more because it yeilds better results
14:58:17	filwit	yes, that's true
14:58:28	filwit	but they don't have any power without the support of the people
14:58:40	apriori__	maybe..
14:58:54	apriori__	I guess.. this will result in a new rise of "apple like hype" :P
14:59:02	filwit	don't get me wrong, I don't think it's just going to happen overnight
14:59:09	filwit	LOL
14:59:36	apriori__	yeah...you're right
14:59:40	apriori__	one needs to be patient
14:59:52	apriori__	question is.. what/who will win the race
15:00:46	filwit	well, I hope for the best
15:01:09	filwit	and even if we can limp along long enough to start this , I think it's enevitable
15:01:20	filwit	inevitable*
15:01:40	apriori__	and, well.. about "where are we going" ...
15:01:41	filwit	simply because our level of technology is rising to fast
15:02:02	apriori__	that would be a total technologlical society... I can't really support that.
15:02:33	filwit	no, it would be just about the oposite, IMO
15:02:46	apriori__	removing any human involvement in labour?
15:02:49	filwit	see, right now we work for a few people who own technology companies
15:03:40	filwit	but if we where free to invent technologies that we enjoyed making, and that benefited people, technology isn't a bad thing
15:04:00	apriori__	agreeing on that
15:04:12	filwit	in the imediate future, there's no way machines can invent things
15:04:24	apriori__	but.. if technology takes away from people... that must not always be good.
15:04:25	filwit	so humans minds still need to do all the inventing
15:04:29	filwit	but that's the fun part
15:04:52	filwit	that's what we go to school for, it's what motivates us, because our creations become part of our identity
15:05:32	filwit	I wouldn't say technology takes away
15:05:35	filwit	it changes things
15:05:37	filwit	for sure
15:05:48	filwit	for instance, the very fact that we're talking across the world right now
15:05:56	apriori__	yeah, sure
15:05:56	filwit	but it's also only through text
15:06:03	filwit	so it's a bit inhuman
15:06:13	filwit	but that's only because it's in its basic forms
15:06:14	apriori__	If I'd be completely against technology, I wouldn't study CS ;)
15:06:45	filwit	we reach out to others not because we want to hide behind computers, but because we're seeking like minded people in the world
15:06:52	filwit	before we never had that option
15:07:11	filwit	I'm here because of a general interest in programming and Nimrod as a language
15:07:23	filwit	and because I enjoy talking to people who know about such things
15:08:00	filwit	most of the people I know in real life are not into such things
15:08:21	filwit	but through technology we can all communicate more than we ever could before
15:08:26	filwit	and that's a great thing
15:08:31	filwit	seriously
15:08:47	filwit	it's funny, I was watching this video about human empathy
15:09:03	apriori__	yeah, you're right
15:09:11	filwit	and how, when people where just tribal, anyone outside the tribe was the "alien other",
15:09:23	filwit	aliens are easy to kill, because you can't relate to them
15:09:42	apriori__	yeah
15:09:45	filwit	then as things evolved, it became blood ties, then national ties
15:10:04	filwit	and now, I'm talking to someone in Germany when I should be working ;)
15:10:24	filwit	do you think I could go to war with a country who's people I can relate too?
15:10:59	filwit	if we could communicate with eachother like we can now, I'm sure World War II would have been much harder to fight in
15:11:37	filwit	we're still fighting people today of course
15:11:51	filwit	but people here honestly have some crazy idea about Muslims
15:11:52	apriori__	yeah, you might be right..
15:12:04	filwit	and the Middle East in general
15:12:08	apriori__	well, my father is muslim
15:12:30	filwit	cool :)
15:12:34	apriori__	he has some strange views.. and quite some I don't like at all, but he is far away from the "stereotype"
15:12:46	apriori__	e.g. views about women...
15:13:05	filwit	yes, my father is Christian, and he has similar views :)
15:13:13	filwit	(about women)
15:13:18	apriori__	and he is quite confusing in that topic.. sometimes quite archaic and conservative.. then.. way modern than most people
15:14:04	filwit	that's intersting
15:14:43	filwit	see, it's kinda funny but many americans fear Muslims because they're so strongly Christian
15:15:08	filwit	and I think that's why we're (as a country) able to go to war with the Middle East
15:15:26	apriori__	e.g. about emancipation.. he is one seeing it like 10 times stricter than most would. like wanting "real emancipation" and not simple overpreferation of women (like its implemented e.g. here in the EU)
15:15:40	filwit	because when you can't relate to someone, you don't have empathy toward them
15:15:45	apriori__	yeah, clear religion abuse..
15:16:17	apriori__	my father knows many views, though
15:16:37	apriori__	he read the bible as well as the koran
15:16:46	apriori__	and he says, there are many, many similarities
15:17:38	filwit	well they spawn from the same jewish religioun, so I imagine they do. Though I've never read the Koran
15:17:48	filwit	I've read the whole Bible though
15:17:59	filwit	when i was young
15:18:16	filwit	that's cool, sounds like you have an intersting background
15:18:19	*	zahary quit (Quit: Leaving.)
15:18:21	apriori__	well, I once watched a documentary... which showed some historic hints indicating that the 3 world religions have a common predecessor
15:18:53	filwit	yes, i've watch similar documentaries
15:19:03	apriori__	I actually never read the bible nor the koran..
15:19:03	filwit	and I find them easy to believe
15:19:06	apriori__	I might someday...
15:19:16	filwit	they're interesting
15:19:32	filwit	but I was taught to read them religiously
15:19:36	apriori__	yeah.. those religions seem like 3 different views (interpretations) of the same thing
15:19:54	filwit	as if every passage might hold some hidden truth and speak to me about my current situation
15:20:06	filwit	ya, idk
15:20:15	apriori__	well, it even might... like any book has influence on us.
15:20:24	apriori__	anything we read and see...
15:20:43	filwit	true, but I meant it in a more direct way
15:20:48	apriori__	I know ;)
15:21:21	filwit	but you're right, of course, everthing has an impact on our perspective I think
15:22:02	filwit	I would probably have never called myself and Atheist if it hadn't been for my religious upbringing
15:22:22	filwit	not because I think my views are wrong, but because I probably would have never cared to think about such things
15:23:01	apriori__	well... it might sound arrogant.. but very simple reflection leads to a way of thinking which some day ends in the question: what is more likely? (or similar)
15:23:45	apriori__	for me, it was more the pessimistic view point: "if there is a god, is he such an asshole to alllow so much crap to happen?" was the question I asked myself
15:24:00	apriori__	now I didn't quite want to accept, that, if there is a good, that he's an asshole :P
15:24:22	apriori__	*is a god
15:24:47	filwit	lol
15:25:03	filwit	it's not quite the same path I took
15:25:09	apriori__	one other thing in my life.. which really also influenced me, was .. (same on me) star trek :P
15:25:17	apriori__	*shame on me
15:25:21	filwit	haha
15:25:25	filwit	love that show
15:25:30	filwit	so corny sometimes...
15:25:38	apriori__	hehe, yeah
15:25:55	filwit	but honestly, some of the best ideas (in the Next Generation)
15:26:46	filwit	so where you raised Muslim?
15:26:58	apriori__	nope.. I was given free choice.
15:27:11	filwit	nice
15:27:17	apriori__	though.. we had christmas etc.
15:27:38	apriori__	so in a way.. I was raised in local culture.. without religious bounds
15:27:48	filwit	that's cool
15:28:03	apriori__	yeah, I liked it, too ;)
15:28:05	filwit	not everyone here is raised really religously either
15:28:09	apriori__	sometimes.. as a child its not that easy, though
15:28:25	filwit	I'm probably giving off an odd impression of american people
15:28:41	apriori__	well, not really
15:29:03	filwit	ya, plus I'm obviously not the only one you talk too :P
15:29:09	filwit	so whatever
15:29:10	apriori__	people over here also vary wildy.... why shouldn't that be that case elsewhere?
15:29:20	filwit	true
15:29:52	filwit	gah, it's horribly late in the day here
15:30:03	filwit	and I need to get off of here or I'll never get anything done
15:30:07	apriori__	GMT -6 ?
15:30:20	filwit	it's 12:00 here
15:30:35	apriori__	k
15:30:40	filwit	I haven't done anything I'm suppose to be working on :O
15:30:41	apriori__	5:30 pm here
15:30:47	apriori__	sorry about that ;)
15:30:54	filwit	haha, np
15:30:59	apriori__	but I really enjoyed the dicussion. thank you
15:30:59	filwit	enjoyed the break
15:31:11	filwit	though I was planning on working on Nimrod stuff this entire time
15:31:20	apriori__	damn :P
15:31:24	apriori__	araq will kill me ;)
15:31:41	filwit	I'm sure Araq will be thouroughly pisseed that we spammed his IRC channel with so much non-Nimrod stuff
15:31:43	filwit	hahah
15:31:51	filwit	he keeps all this logged
15:31:55	filwit	lol
15:32:01	apriori__	araq is also german
15:32:07	filwit	ya i know
15:32:17	apriori__	maybe he reads what I wrote and thinks.. "what pile of crap did he wrote?!"
15:32:19	apriori__	;)
15:32:38	filwit	lol
15:32:47	filwit	alright man, thanks for the talk
15:32:50	filwit	bye
15:32:56	*	filwit quit (Quit: Leaving)
15:33:15	*	apriori__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
16:40:37	dom96	hello
16:53:47	Araq	omg indeed
16:54:00	Araq	they spammed our channel
16:54:09	Araq	and both left ...
16:56:41	dom96	lol?
16:58:15	Araq	dom96: read the logs ;-)
16:58:31	dom96	It's not like anyone else was having a more on-topic conversation
16:58:41	dom96	Even though it's off-topic, at least the channel is alive.