<< 13-11-2014 >>
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00:39:46VarriountDwarf, Gnome, Elf.. do linux developers have some thing for fairytale creatures?
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00:41:07Varriountflaviu: Just an FYI, the config in the nim-buildbot repo isn't up-to-date. I'm updating it right now.
00:46:52flaviuVarriount: Ok, great.
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07:41:10gokrGoood morning!
07:42:32gokrclang an "academic project"? Hardly. AFAIK its Apple all the way.
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07:43:10gokrOr... oh, I was thinking of LLVM.
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08:26:51NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel bc5879b Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: fixes error propagation for macros.parseExpr
08:26:51NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 06a4ab5 Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge branch 'devel' of https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod into devel
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08:41:45Araqsomebody should wrap this: https://github.com/arrayfire/arrayfire
08:43:29Araqin the header files there is a pure C part that can be wrapped easily
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11:46:01jabSo I just pulled from master and compiled, but when running ./bin/nim c koch I get this error: "Error: execution of an external program failed
11:46:52kokozedmanjab: it should also tell you how to know what happened: it should mention about running with --parallelBuild:1
11:47:38jabWhich I did, and it has a bunch of "nimcache/koch.c:152:13: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘void’" erros
11:48:41kokozedmanjab: looks like something got broken somewhere ... try earlier commits
11:48:50kokozedmanI did not get that kind of error
11:49:07kokozedmanI pulled last week, and working my project around that
11:49:43jabhttp://nimrod-lang.org/download.html I followed this (git section), which also doesn't have bin/nimrod updated to bin/nim
11:49:48jabI'll try that
11:50:08kokozedman0.9.6 is still Nimrod
11:50:14kokozedmanmaster is already Nim
11:51:22jabright
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12:16:50Araq0hi jab. can please create a bug report for this which mentions OS, CPU, C compiler version?
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12:17:25Araq0it's like the C compiler doesn't read nimbase.h without telling you
12:17:44jabSure
12:19:35Araq0thanks
12:21:25Araq0also master should still produce a nimrod exe, not nim ... but oh well
12:21:37Araq0might as well release 0.10.2 finally
12:25:46jabAraq0: https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/issues/1651
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12:51:49kokozedmanAraq0: 0.10.2? is that a compiler only version, or is that also a Nim version?
12:54:50Araq0kokozedman: there is only 1 version for both. devel is currently 0.10.1, once released it becomes 0.10.2
12:55:20kokozedmanAraq0: so, there is no 0.9.8?
12:55:41Araq0that is correct
12:56:34kokozedmaninteresting... so, around what timeframe are we planning 0.10.2?
12:57:00kokozedmanI mean, release date (rough)
13:02:20jabhttp://sprunge.us/jYgZ?nim
13:02:27jabAny idea why this error happens?
13:06:00Araq0jab: -+- has never been implemented for set[char], there is a bug report for that
13:06:12Araq0-+- is never ever used in the real world
13:06:30Araq0so we didn't notice for a looooonng time ... ;-)
13:07:06jabahh, i see
13:11:35Araq0kokozedman: 0.10.2 anytime soon, major show stopper is that the new website/forum is still not ready
13:12:07Araq01.0.0 afterwards, some time after christmas
13:13:35kokozedmanhmm :) looks like things are humming along, and getting fast these days ... 3 releases this year if that happens ... 2 already in the bag
13:17:24Araq0dunno about that. bugs still take awfully long to actually get fixed
13:17:55Araq0in my mind 1.0 is actually about promising we won't break everything again
13:18:08kokozedmanI'm also still in the deep process of learning Nim, I'll try to contribute as much as I can once I get the hang of it
13:18:15Araq0and maybe it will be an official beta
13:19:19Araq0whether we admit it or not, we release something and *then* people use it and find the bugs
13:19:51kokozedmanright
13:19:59Araq0and we don't have the resources to do all the QA upfront before a release
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13:35:26jabIs there a strict style to adhere to? I notice most examples are using 2 spaces, with type/var/const on their own lines
13:37:32Araq0the wiki has a style guide
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15:13:46kokozedmanwhat's the way to have an enum of a specific type? if it's a proper thing to do, like uint64
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15:46:49NimBotnim-lang/nimforum new_async 4f7396d Miguel [+2 ±0 -0]: Forum search added and some modifications done.
15:46:49NimBotnim-lang/nimforum new_async 3f08e94 Miguel [+0 ±4 -0]: Forum search added and some modifications done.
15:46:49NimBotnim-lang/nimforum new_async a28e353 Miguel [+0 ±1 -0]: defaults restored for ThreadsPerPage, PostsPerPage
15:46:49NimBotnim-lang/nimforum new_async 8569a89 Dominik Picheta [+2 ±4 -0]: Merge branch 'new_async' of https://github.com/Leu-Gim/nimforum into Leu-Gim-new_async... 5 more lines
15:46:49NimBot1 more commits.
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16:36:30NimBotnim-lang/nimforum new_async 4dd8b0d Dominik Picheta [+0 ±2 -0]: Removed extraneous postId code.
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16:42:04boydgreenfieldWith babel, is there an easy way to specify a range dependency on a private git/mg repo? Ie., what do I need to put in my .nimble file? Notably, I can’t get this syntax to work for the example: `nimble install nimgame@"> 0.5”`
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17:04:43gokrThat's pretty... surprising: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2014/Nov-12.html
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17:14:33Varriount|Busygokr: Gonna give up on us now and switch to C#? :P
17:23:55gokrhaha! no worries
17:24:03kokozedmanVarriount|Busy: been tempted many times with other languages as well... decided finally Nim was the right balance for most things
17:24:17gokrWe did however contemplate quite deeply to use the NeoAxis game engine earlier.
17:24:26kokozedmanC++11, C#, Vala, Julia, Go, ...
17:25:07gokrI have worked a bit with C# and its not half as bad as Java, but still, as a Smalltalker all the boiler plate hurts my eyes.
17:25:34gokrAnd the mobile story on C# is pretty good these days.
17:26:08Varriount|Busykokozedman: Funnily enough, one of my primary reasons for sticking with Nim is not just the language itself (though that plays a part), A large part of it is the development experience.
17:26:35gokrDone two Nim contributions now btw. Blimp and Lapp.
17:27:10Varriount|Busygokr: I think I saw blimb the other day. I don't recall seeing lapp
17:27:23gokrVarriount|Busy: Hehe, mmmm. And still compared to Smalltalk the "IDE" side of Nim is.... a small dark cave in the middle of a desert. ;)
17:27:55gokrhttps://gitlab.3dicc.com/gokr/lapp
17:28:07Varriount|Busygokr: I'll take your word for that, since I don't have any experience with smalltalk.
17:28:25gokrIts pretty nifty, although can use some improvements. I didn't do the original port of Lapp, it was done by the primary author Steve Donovan (Lua fame).
17:28:41gokrBut he ok'd me publishing it, was just happy it was not forgotten.
17:28:43Varriount|Busygokr: Though, I like the ST2/3 Plugin that onionhammer and I have worked on.
17:29:11gokrSmalltalk is like the ultimate IDE, browsers, debuggers, explorers, refactoring tools, yaddayadda.
17:30:33gokrChange code while its running, code right in the debugger and so on. There is nothing even close I would bet, if we only look at the "immersive interactive incremental IDE"-part of it.
17:30:53kokozedmanVarriount|Busy: in some way, I also experienced a highened/enlightenment with Nim than in any other languages I have seen so far
17:31:57Varriount|Busy'Nim: Makes you higher than a kite made from hemp'
17:32:02kokozedmanand the presence/contribution/help of Araq here is very important for the language itself, and the community is thriving, none of these bashing behaviors seen in some other places
17:32:03gokrNim on the other hand has VERY good performance, very good C/C++ eco system integration, very good platform support, very good multicore support, good low level libraries etc.
17:32:39Varriount|BusyOh yes, speaking of which...
17:32:51gokrIf Nim could recreate just 10% of the Smalltalk environment - I would be happy enough :)
17:33:12kokozedmanI can just sit here all day and read the flow of information, and I already learn many useful stuffs
17:33:49kokozedmangokr: really??? isn't that kind of mouthful?
17:34:05kokozedmanI never seen nor known Smalltalk
17:34:18kokozedmanbut that sounds like... out of this earth
17:34:19gokrDownload pharo.org and take a look.
17:34:22Varriount|Busygokr: Reminds me of feature in the Python framework 'Twisted'
17:34:34gokrSmalltalk is the original UI environment and OO language.
17:34:51gokrIt was what awed Steve Jobs at PARC.
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17:34:52kokozedmanVarriount|Busy: I don't know, but Twisted really repels me
17:35:01Varriount|Busygokr: There's a module called 'manhole', which lets you connect to a running python application, and modify stuff real-time.
17:35:09gokrThe team behind IBM Smalltalk is the team that built Eclipse.
17:35:32gokrStill, it's not close to Smalltalk. In Smalltalk you are always in runtime.
17:35:45kokozedmanhmm... quite a history
17:35:50gokrYou actually code in "realtime" in runtime.
17:35:56gokrThere is no other mode.
17:36:20gokrThe Smalltalk history is amazing, its a source of so much today.
17:36:35Varriount|Busygokr: Wait, so what about a 'while' loop?
17:36:45gokrUnit testing was born there, Ruby is a copy of Smalltalk, UI was born there etc etc.
17:36:55gokrWhat while loop?
17:37:12Varriount|Busygokr: Er, nevermind.
17:37:12gokrRefactoring browser tools was born in Smalltalk.
17:37:26kokozedmangokr: at first glance, it is one of these language really excellent for really really fast prototyping, like in 15 minutes I need this idea proven
17:37:55gokrkokozedman: And still its also the language used to build some of the largest most advanced information systems on earth.
17:38:08gokrLike you know, stock markets, factory control systems, bank systems etc.
17:38:24gokrSmalltalk was really big in 1980-2000.
17:38:46gokrAnd is still used by several companies as a "secret weapon".
17:39:04gokrJP Morgan has a Smalltalk system called Kapital juggling trillions (yes) of dollars in derivatives.
17:39:25gokrIts one of their jewels, making them TONS of money.
17:39:30kokozedmanthat's freaking massive!
17:40:00gokrhttp://www.cincom.com/pdf/CS040819-1.pdf
17:40:37gokrOk, gotta run. But if you don't know Smalltalk - then you have something to learn :) Its a golden source of history and marvellous meta capabilities.
17:41:07kokozedmangokr: thanks for the enlightenment
17:41:20kokozedmanbut Nim is the right choice for my current project :)
17:41:33kokozedmanwill look into Smalltalk in my free time
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17:47:42gokr_Regarding while loop - threads. ;)
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18:48:40Varriount|BusyHello kemet
18:49:54Varriount|Busygokr: Smalltalk looks like a neat language. It's a shame Java came in and muscled it out of the way. :/
18:50:25Varriount|BusyLooks a lot more elegant and succinct than Java. *shudders*
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20:09:56Araqdef-: dude, update your PR please, I'm too lazy
20:12:00Mat3hi all
20:13:14gokrVarriount: Yeah
20:14:11Araqgokr: can you reproduce https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/issues/1651 ?
20:14:48Araqdom96_: website ready this weekend?
20:15:13dom96_Araq: Sorry, seems unlikely.
20:15:26dom96_But i've got 4 lectures tomorrow so who knows.
20:15:48Araqdom96_: ok, can we release anyway and just change the logo?
20:16:00Araqthe new website makes more sense for version 1.0 anyway IMO
20:16:53gokrAraq: Hmmm, I will try.
20:17:05dom96_Araq: sure, but you need to get asyncscgi working.
20:17:20Araqno way
20:17:29AraqI'm busy with bugfixes
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20:20:08gokrAraq: I get the same actually.
20:20:26gokrSo... first of all, its "nim" now on master, not "nimrod".
20:22:10TrustableHi all, I'm also trying a bootstrap
20:22:48Araqgokr: ok that sucks
20:23:17gokrSo... something at nimbase.h, around line 130...
20:24:06gokrehum, nah.
20:24:16gokrOk, I will paste in gist
20:25:04gokrMust be something with N_NOINLINE
20:26:16gokrhttps://gist.github.com/gokr/f9754de4be76321b0204
20:29:46Araqthat makes no sense
20:31:20Araqgokr: please change line 130 in nimbase.h to the following:
20:31:33Araq# define N_NOINLINE(rettype, name) __attribute__((noinline)) rettype name
20:31:43Araqand try if it then works
20:32:54gokrOk, so before that - I copied nimbase.h from devel - into master, and then it works.
20:33:07gokrAnd the difference... is small in that file.
20:33:11Araqer :O
20:33:28Araqok, whats the difference?
20:33:57gokrpasting priv msg
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20:35:01gokrHehe, oops
20:35:06gokrDid you get it?
20:36:00def-Araq: done: https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/pull/1653
20:37:42Araq- var cbName = newIdentNode("cb")
20:37:44Araq+ #var cbName = newIdentNode("cb")
20:37:46Araqhuh?
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20:39:30def-cbName isn't used anywhere
20:40:22*ldlework pimps Nim to the Rust community.
20:40:24ldleworkteehee
20:40:29*ldlework skips off into the forest.
20:40:58Varriount|Busyldlework: You naughty boy/girl. :3
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20:42:00def-ldlework: on the irc channel or where?
20:42:08ldlework#rust-offtopic
20:42:30gokrHmmm, kinda silly that we build devel on Nimbuild - and then master breaks ;)
20:43:45gokrWe should probably keep a better eye on master, right? Build that too?
20:45:20Varriount|Busygokr: Hm. How about a nightly build for master?
20:45:32gokrYeah, seems smart. Protecting it a bit.
20:45:54gokrldlework: That channel... is that correct?
20:46:04ldleworkits not on freenode
20:46:08gokrah
20:46:10ldleworkits on the mozilla IRC
20:46:16gokrIt looked very empty ;)
20:46:32gokrSo are they throwing stuff at you or?
20:46:34def-gokr: i was there a few seconds before you^^
20:46:40gokrHehe
20:47:01Araqdom96_: please look at the diff:
20:47:36*gokr gonna install Nim on my MBP
20:47:37Araqhttps://github.com/def-/Nimrod/commit/f52fd8785f3c3247ef5b018738f2920b79b7f8f6#diff-e7d29941cb2ca6bf4e0f5c627239bc7bR1305
20:48:20def-Araq: i didn't fix all warnings, only the ones i got when compiling my test programs
20:48:25def-ther are surely more
20:48:37Varriount|Busygokr: https://github.com/nim-lang/nim-buildbot/issues
20:48:41Araqno worries
20:50:29Araqldlework: er ... we don't convert Rustians to Nim, that's not polite
20:50:57ldleworkAraq: I'm being incredibly polite, thank you.
20:51:11Araqok ;-)
20:52:23ldleworkAraq: I'm talking about macros to a Rust guy. And he's saying Rust's macros can't be as nice as Nim's because it is important for Rust to be able to parse macro invocations without expanding the macro
20:52:34ldleworkAlso for having arbitrary syntax in the macro invocations
20:52:46ldleworkAre these fundamental limitations to Nim's macro design?
20:53:11Araqyes
20:53:14Araqwell
20:53:27Araqit's not fundamental at all, it's simply good design
20:53:42ldleworkAraq: not allowing arbitrary syntax in macro invocations?
20:53:46ldleworkor
20:54:04Araqif your DSL diverges from Nim's syntax too much you have to embed it in a """string literal"""
20:54:17Araqso the syntax is fixed
20:55:02Varriount|BusyThe input to a macro must be able to fit in nimrod's ast
20:56:58gokrHa, Nimrod listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macro
20:57:09gokr(sorry for mentioning the "w" word)
20:58:21Varriount|BusyOk, we really need to resubmit an article.
20:58:59Varriount|BusyBecause there are many links on that page that don't fit the reference criteria, but still have importance enough to be on wikipedia.
20:59:13ldleworkAlso we have a number of Nim blogs at this point
20:59:26AraqVarriount|Busy: I'd rather delete everything in wikipedia that doesn't fit their braindead criteria
20:59:46Varriount|BusyAraq: That's just being petty.
20:59:58Varriount|BusyHere, evidence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elixir_%28programming_language%29
21:00:29Varriount|BusyAnd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_%28programming_language%29
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21:01:47Varriount|BusyAraq: Do you know where a copy of the wiki page contents is located? I'd like to re-post it.
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21:03:28dom96_Araq: looking at it now
21:05:03dom96_Varriount|Busy: Don't re-post it, there is a process you need to go through.
21:05:31dom96_Varriount|Busy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Nimrod_%28programming_language%29
21:05:44dom96_You can resubmit it through that.
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21:07:39dom96_Araq: I think that's fine.
21:09:04NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel f52fd87 def [+0 ±12 -0]: Fix some deprecation warnings caused by renames
21:09:04NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel c507fe3 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±12 -0]: Merge pull request #1653 from def-/name-fixes-2... 2 more lines
21:10:20Varriount|Busygokr: I don't suppose you could add your articles to the reference section?
21:10:44gokrMmm, can I ?
21:11:10Varriount|BusyYep. I think you count as a secondary source.
21:11:48Varriount|Busy"Secondary Source: Any document that draws on one or more primary sources and interprets or analyses them; also sources such as newspapers whose accuracy is open to question."
21:12:10gokrSo, how do I do that?
21:12:57gokrThe version there says 0.9.4 btw
21:13:28Varriount|BusyGo down to the references section, click 'edit', and add a citation to own of your blog posts.
21:14:28gokrAnd... should I link to my category or to specific articles?
21:16:01Varriount|BusySpecific articles. We'll also need to add some information to the article which actually references your blog posts.
21:16:53dom96_Varriount|Busy: That really won't help.
21:17:21dom96_Varriount|Busy: gokr's articles are not a reputable source.
21:17:31gokrNah :)
21:17:53Varriount|Busydom96_: We might as well try. Better than doing nothing.
21:18:15dom96_sure
21:18:17gokrDoes googling show up any... magazine article or anything new?
21:18:33dom96_Varriount|Busy: Ask for a review in #wikipedia-en
21:21:24Varriount|Busydom96_: I will when I get home.
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21:34:17Mat3ciao
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21:38:07Varriount|BusyI wonder if gokr's port of lapp could be used as a secondary source.
21:38:34gokrShould perhaps write an article about that one.
21:38:49onionhammeri agree
21:38:52gokrAlthough its not my idea, but the idea itself is quite nice. We should improve it.
21:38:54onionhammerjust delete the ones that dont meet the criteria
21:39:08onionhammerit at least raises awareness of how dumb that policy is
21:39:15Varriount|Busygokr: I got the impression that lapp is, at least in the lua community, a well-known piece of code?
21:39:40gokrIn Lua, I think so. Steve Donovan is very known there, author of Penlight etc
21:39:50gokrPenlight being one of the primary "stdlibs" there.
21:40:13Varriount|Busygokr: Perhaps we could get in contact with him to make a statement?
21:40:22gokrI am in contact with him :)
21:40:26gokrSince yesterday ;)
21:40:44gokrThey were actually looking at Go - and I told him to, naaaa, get back to us instead.
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21:40:55gokr(where he works)
21:41:22Varriount|BusyIt's just... so unfair that Nim can't have a wikipedia article. Nim is relevant, and, if not ubiquitous, at least somewhat known.
21:41:43gokrI agree.
21:42:51Varriount|BusyAll because the definition some wikipedia editors use for 'secondary sources', and 'notability' is so rigid.
21:45:05Araqyay at least onionhammer agrees with me
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21:46:10Varriount|BusyAraq, onionhammer: stop being petty. It might make you feel better, but it won't raise any awareness as to other's stupidity.
21:47:30Varriount|BusyThe editors can just point to this- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OTHERCRAPEXISTS
21:51:01AraqVarriount|Busy: that's the point. we help them get rid of the "other crap"
21:54:33gokrWhat's this... book about Nimrod?
21:55:44ldleworkBOOK?!
21:56:03gokrYeah, aren't you guys tracking shit? :)
21:56:09ldleworkBOOK?!
21:56:13gokrhttp://www.books.ru/books/nimrod-programming-language-1090625/
21:56:23ldleworklol wtf?!
21:56:27gokrI am trying to verify its validity - but it has an ISBN number
21:56:39ldleworkIt has got to be a scam
21:57:23def-sounds like the wikipedia article printed
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21:57:34gokrSame book other place: http://www.setbook.net/books/969707.html
21:57:48ldleworkheh crazy
21:59:42gokrDoes look kinda scammish - not sure.
22:00:32Araqit's a scam.
22:00:44gokrYep, I also concluded that now
22:01:00gokrFound same thing, same authors - but about the ship Nimrod :)
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22:03:02blazerhi guys
22:03:45blazerdoes anyone know the preferred way to dynamically load a nimrod function?
22:04:02blazerlike maybe create a .so and use loadLib or something of that sort
22:04:28Varriount|Busyblazer: importc and dynlib.
22:04:49blazeryeah i was trying that
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22:04:57blazerbut i can get backa pointer type
22:05:12blazeri dont know how to call the function using a pointer
22:05:18blazerand im unable to find it in the docs
22:05:47gokrHummm... stumbled over Zahary's repo... grip. Some kind of new Nim language?
22:05:47Varriount|Busyblazer: You shouldn't have to use a pointer.
22:06:16blazerhttp://pastebin.com/Squq5tVP
22:06:30blazeri *need* to dynamically load the code
22:07:00blazerso it cant be predefined in the code that wants to use it
22:07:06blazeridkk if thats clear
22:07:20Varriount|Busyblazer: Look at the code example in the pragma pragma section: http://build.nimrod-lang.org/docs/manual.html#pragma-pragma
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22:07:56blazeroh this looks good
22:08:02blazerthanks :)
22:08:11Varriount|Busyblazer: It is in the manual.
22:08:35blazeryeah ... but its not obvious that i'd need pragma pragma
22:09:03blazeri dug a bunch of other not so useful stuff
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22:11:05flaviugokr: A fork that went nowhere, it's pretty old as you can see.
22:11:20gokrBut... he did do something with it recently.
22:11:41gokrif you look at the grip branch.
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22:12:04gokrSeems to be added support for ".g" files.
22:12:12gokrAnd its own... syntax etc?
22:14:16Araqgokr: it's Nim with support for his own syntax I think
22:14:32Araqsince the parser is pluggable that very easy to do
22:16:15blazeractually i dont which dll or function to call before compilation (it will come from configuration files .. i know its not the greatest idea but its a long story)
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22:16:32blazerso i need to load library and function dynamically
22:16:41blazerand im unable to find examples
22:17:40Araqblazer: cast[proc (x, y: int): int {.cdecl.}](getProcAddr("foo")(2, 3)
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22:19:27Araqer, 'symAddr'
22:19:40Araqlol I don't even remember that API
22:20:11Araqblazer: is the DLL written in Nim?
22:20:23Araqcause then you also need to build against nimrtl.dll
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22:21:01blazerAraq: thanks worked like a charm :)
22:21:31blazeri used checkedSymAddr instead of getProcAddress
22:21:51blazeryeah
22:22:18blazerAraq: yeah the dll is also writtten in Nim
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22:22:47blazerAraq: im looking for the forum post now
22:22:59AraqI know your forum post
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22:23:08Araqthat's why I'm asking
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22:29:05blazerAraq: when you mean build against nimrtl.dll do you mean both the library and the client or just the library?
22:29:13Araqboth
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22:30:38blazerok thanks :) lemme try it out
22:32:12tinAndihi, as I'am still on nimrod 0.9.4. The break to 'nim' will be on 0.9.6 to 0.10.0???
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22:34:44AraqtinAndi: that is correct. 0.9.6 is quite compatbile with 0.9.4. biggest change iirc is the declared vs defined split
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23:47:30dom96_Araq: I may actually be able to get the new website design working.
23:48:10Araqdom96_: better hurry up there are only ~50 high priority bugs left
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