<< 14-02-2017 >>
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00:12:40FromGitter<Varriount> carterza: My first guess would be invalid memory access
00:12:53carterzaI’m getting closer
00:12:54FromGitter<Varriount> In the shader
00:12:57carterzaI think it has to do with my matrices
00:13:25carterzahttp://imgur.com/a/ICIAY
00:13:27carterzagetting there...
00:13:42carterzaI could always get a job as a graphics freakshow artist if need be
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00:21:06carterzahttp://imgur.com/a/3JSfC
00:22:25FromGitter<Varriount> carterza: I even have a title, "Creatures from the Unaligned Buffer"
00:22:30carterzalol
00:22:53carterzaI like it
00:23:26krux02yea I wrote by the way a macro library that makes sure you never have an unaligned buffer again
00:23:59krux02https://github.com/krux02/opengl-sandbox/blob/master/examples/mesh_loading_tiny.nim
00:24:47FromGitter<Varriount> How complete is Nim's glm?
00:25:18krux02you mean this one: https://github.com/krux02/nim-glm
00:25:24FromGitter<Varriount> I remember when trying to follow OpenGl tutorials a while ago, I couldn't proceed to the more complex part because they all relied on glm or some other matrix library.
00:25:47krux02I made sure that every function from glsl is supported
00:26:51krux02I still only have a fork of the library, but my version is ahead of the original, and even there I basically revamped the entire thing to use generics
00:27:23krux02it has vectors, matrices and quaternions.
00:27:37krux02If you want splines, no luck have to implement them on your own
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02:13:28FromGitter<barcharcraz> I use my own vecmath library
02:13:32FromGitter<barcharcraz> but it prolly needs some love
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02:15:04krux02barcharcraz: I think there is really little creativity in making one
02:15:13FromGitter<barcharcraz> yeah
02:15:21FromGitter<barcharcraz> I don't think nim-glm was around when I wrote that
02:15:26krux02just put a bunch of datatypes and common operations together
02:15:29FromGitter<barcharcraz> (it still has some lurking T and P prefixes)
02:15:47krux02my suggestion is to use nim-glm
02:15:51FromGitter<barcharcraz> yeah same
02:15:56krux02because by today you could say I wrote it
02:16:38krux02it did exist when I started programming in nim, I didn't like it a lot but it did it's job for the time until I did a complete overhaul on everything
02:16:47krux02so by now I can say it is pretty solid
02:16:51krux02I can recommend
02:18:55krux02I wish there was some common simd type in the core of nim
02:19:09krux02so that I could just use that and implement basically just methods
02:19:51krux02So that when there are several vector type implementations around they are all from the same base class and therefore binary/argument compatible
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03:54:47FromGitter<vegansk> @Araq, why are we using ``assert`` in the compiler's code? It is dangerous because the compiler can produce the code that compiles but won't work as it should.
04:40:20raussI'm having some issues porting a cpp file to nim. Does anyone have a couple minutes to look at the .cpp file and my .nim file, and look for anything stupid I might be missing?
04:40:32rauss(it's pretty short)
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04:47:09FromGitter<vegansk> @rauss, post them as a gist
04:47:35rausshttps://github.com/Microsoft/Chakra-Samples/blob/master/ChakraCore%20Samples/Hello%20World/Linux_OSX/sample.cpp and https://gist.github.com/rosshadden/d2877ef77085c889d6e5f90e38b06650
04:51:09FromGitter<vegansk> And what's the problem?
04:52:18raussvegansk: The specific problem is in the comment on line 35, but I don't think it's feasible to get specific help for that. Can you just see if anything I'm doing looks blatantly wrong?
04:52:28raussI'm new to nim as of like two days ago
04:52:48raussAFAICT everything looks great on my end, and nothing wrong. So hopefully it's minor
04:56:48FromGitter<vegansk> @rauss, where are ChakraCommon and ChakraCore sources?
04:58:13rauss(finding links, sec)
04:58:39raussvegansk: https://github.com/Microsoft/ChakraCore/tree/master/lib/Jsrt
04:59:19raussvegansk: I can gist my .h files that I have manually mangled, or their .nim transpiled versions if you want
05:00:07FromGitter<vegansk> nim version please
05:01:31rausshttps://gist.github.com/rosshadden/d2877ef77085c889d6e5f90e38b06650 Added to the original gist
05:06:23FromGitter<vegansk> Read description here: https://gist.github.com/rosshadden/d2877ef77085c889d6e5f90e38b06650#file-chakracore-nim-L201-L204
05:06:57FromGitter<vegansk> You give it the buffer of size 0
05:08:23raussvegansk, You're completely right. I did that because the sample I'm porting passes `nullptr`. I'll see if changing it helps
05:09:36FromGitter<vegansk> Do something like: ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=58a2910f00c00c3d4f36c999]
05:12:14FromGitter<rosshadden> @vegansk Maybe something in the library itself is messed up, or unexpected. `len` does not get updated and stays `0`
05:12:32FromGitter<rosshadden> I'll poke around their source and see if I can figure it out
05:13:07FromGitter<rosshadden> @vegansk As far as sanity check, not even caring what those libs do, does everything look sane-ish?
05:14:44FromGitter<rosshadden> @vegansk The cast for instance seems suspect. I kind of just tried things until it was the expected type =\
05:14:47FromGitter<vegansk> First of all, don't discard error values, check them, maybe example fails before that line.
05:16:31FromGitter<rosshadden> Okay. Thanks for taking a look!
05:30:15FromGitter<vegansk> You are welcome :smile:
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05:46:51carterzanarrowed down the bug in my gl code to one spot for skeletal animation I think
05:46:57carterzaone matrix is causing the issue it would seem
05:47:04carterzaif I set that to identity i get the bind pose
05:50:36carterzaah nevermind it’s two matricies - I have a feeling all these problems I’m having stem from using glm and it not being the same row / column major as the code I’m following
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06:01:56FromGitter<optik-aper> I'm new to nim and right now I'm having problems with the os module (and some others). When I try to compile this code ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` ⏎ ⏎ I've noticed it happening with several libraries and I'm not really sure what could be going on. [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=58a29d52aa800ee52c9185e5]
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06:25:56FromGitter<optik-aper> Well, I suspect it has something to do my OS (void linux w/ musl). I installed nim on Ubuntu 16.04 and it compiled without issue. I'll investigate more tomorrow.
06:26:29FromGitter<vegansk> @optik-aper, show output of ``nim -v`` and ``nim dump``
06:27:50FromGitter<optik-aper> nim -v ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=58a2a365872fc8ce62320338]
06:31:34FromGitter<vegansk> How did you install Nim?
06:31:56FromGitter<optik-aper> xbps, the package manager for void linux
06:32:49FromGitter<optik-aper> I also, after I started having issues, pulled the repo down and compiled nim. I got the same results trying to compile that snippet.
06:37:05FromGitter<vegansk> Interesting. Can you also run this code: ⏎ ⏎ ```import system.platforms ⏎ echo targetOS ⏎ echo targetCPU``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=58a2a58f872fc8ce62320c2d]
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06:39:01FromGitter<optik-aper> ```linux ⏎ amd64``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=58a2a60400c00c3d4f371f65]
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06:53:32FromGitter<vegansk> It's ok here. Then I just don't know what happens :-(
06:55:39FromGitter<optik-aper> I suspect it's my unusual OS and maybe the fact that it's compiled against musl instead of glibc? I'm not sure. I'll do some more investigation... maybe set up a glibc filesystem to test it or do a fresh install of void w/ glibc. Thanks for you help.
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07:55:27carterzagetting further along… - http://imgur.com/a/fX4zI
07:55:32carterzastill not sure what the exact problem is
07:55:42carterzafixed a lot of matrix multiplication problems
07:57:25FromGitter<vegansk> @Araq, my opinion is that all of these issues (#5389, #5383, #5170) have the same source of problems (codegen) but different effects - from compile errors to runtime crashes. What do you think?
07:58:50FromGitter<vegansk> Maybe you can point me where to start search?
08:03:48libmanEven C++ now has an IDE daemon - http://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Clang-Clangd-Server
08:06:09FromGitter<vegansk> Where c codegen chooses if it must instantiate the new type or function, or use already existing?
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08:10:46FromGitter<vegansk> @libman, C++ has IDE daemon a couple of years :-) https://valloric.github.io/YouCompleteMe/#client-server-architecture
08:11:36carterzanow I’m really close… http://imgur.com/a/fzNJw
08:11:38carterzaand lol
08:36:36rokupsnow this is something nimsuggest should be http://langserver.org/
08:37:39rokupsjust read about clangd - they now provide a language server for c++. amazing times.
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09:28:18Jipok[m]Help me please. I have such a problem.
09:28:19Jipok[m]$ ./HelloWorld
09:28:27Jipok[m]libbgfx-shared-libDebug.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
09:28:28Jipok[m]libbgfx-shared-libRelease.so: cannot open shared object file:
09:28:37Jipok[m]No such file or directory
09:28:38Jipok[m]could not load: libbgfx-shared-lib(Debug|Release).so
09:28:45Araqvegansk: yes I'm working on it
09:28:54Jipok[m]$ ls
09:28:55Jipok[m]HelloWorld libbgfx-shared-libRelease.so
09:29:01Araqit's a serious regression... -.-
09:29:21AraqI use asserts only for stuff that cannot go wrong :P
09:29:42Araqthere is also internalAssert and doAssert which are not compiled away, so *shrug*
09:30:49FromGitter<vegansk> @Araq, thanks.
09:31:20cheatfateJipok[m], please put your .so file to /usr/lib
09:33:54cheatfateJipok[m], what os you are using?
09:35:09Jipok[m]fedora
09:35:53Jipok[m]I put it in the lib64. Thanks, it helped
09:36:07FromGitter<konqoro> what's the difference between nnkStmtListExpr and nnkStmtList in macros?
09:36:20Jipok[m]I'm just a beginner in linux and nim.
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09:39:12FromGitter<vegansk> @konqoro , ``(var x = 12; x)`` - is nnkStmtListExpr, you can use it where you need an expression
09:39:54Jipok[m]cheatfate: how to make a program to use the library from its current location?
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09:41:43flyxJipok[m]: add . to LD_LIBRARY_PATH
09:41:52FromGitter<konqoro> thanks @vegansk
09:42:42cheatfateJipok[m], try in your nim file {.passL:"-Wl,-rpath=.".}
09:43:24cheatfatemaybe this helps
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09:46:20Jipok[m]Thank you. Both methods work
09:48:16cheatfateJipok[m], what method you have used first?
09:48:45cheatfateJipok[m], because if you used flyx's method first then you don't know results of my method :)
09:48:57Jipok[m]dynlib: ".libbgfx...
09:49:39flyxcheatfate: depends on whether he did `LD_LIBRARY_PATH=. ./HelloWorld` or exported it
09:49:54Jipok[m]I tried them separately.
09:50:45Jipok[m]If the program is run under Windows. Where it will search dll?
09:51:01flyxafaik Windows by default searches the executable's directory
09:51:08rokupsAraq: finally fixed compiler bootstrapping with -d:nimCoroutines ;) this time 4 real. and GC seems to work. just scraped gc part and rewrote it from scratch. starting over helps sometimes. any way to get CI do it's thing with -d:nimCoroutines enabled?
09:51:26cheatfateJipok[m], https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms682586(v=vs.85).aspx
09:53:32Jipok[m]OK. I put an dynlib: ". only for Linux.
09:55:03FromGitter<dom96> @optik-aper this is a long shot, but could it be to do with the fact that you named your module ``import``?
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09:58:26FromGitter<vegansk> @dom96, I tried to name his test as ``import.nim``. It works
09:59:43FromGitter<dom96> In that case I bet it's musl
10:19:48Araqrokups: patch .travis.yml and appveyor.yml
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11:13:29rokupsdid i do it right? https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/5317/commits/3e440b0a05c7d3e43b2104b110ef2f5734f822b2
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11:31:16Araqrokups: that's one way of doing it, but I would do 'koch boot -d:release' later so that the tests run with the somewhat faster compiler
11:31:30Araqassuming that -d:nimCoroutines has some overhead
11:32:03Araqtests\testament\tester --pedantic all -d:nimCoroutines also seems overkill
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11:47:37cheatfaterokups, also remove `fasm` too, please
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12:25:52arnetheduckhey Araq, I looked at those test results someone posted for windows for the abi branch, but I can't say they look very abi-specific
12:26:05arnetheduckhard to tell if things are simply broken on win or if it's the patch's fault
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12:26:28Araqwin tests are green fwiw
12:26:39Araqwe now run them daily with appveyor
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12:30:55Jipok[m]Why nim is not friendly?
12:31:04Jipok[m]I mean the lack of ready-made packages for Linux.
12:31:13Jipok[m]Also on the main page there is a link to Aporia Ide. But it is a very bad option for beginners. Wouldn't it be better to do an article about the installation VSCode + Nim + Native Debug?
12:31:23Jipok[m]In the FAQ there is a list of plug-ins for editors. Some of the bottom has not been updated for years. This is very discouraged.
12:31:43Jipok[m]When I just want to see how to work with the GUI, I have to search for topics in the forum. Setting libui I find that nothing works with nim version downloaded from the site. Updating nim I have surprised to find that I no longer work the other packages.
12:32:10Jipok[m]By setting nimx I see that for the assembly of the simplest examples of a need nake. Okay, I go deal with this. As a result, I get a lot of errors and frustration.
12:32:39Jipok[m]Is it possible to make stable packages that are sure to work with the current stable version of the compiler?
12:32:56Jipok[m]When I open the package list, I am glad such a large number. But then it is found that many of them have not been updated for years and are not going to the current version of nim.
12:33:12AraqJipok[m]: libui is a recent development, I cannot speak for nimx
12:34:27zevlgnim-mode for emacs is powerful enough
12:35:00Jipok[m]emacs? rly?
12:35:40Jipok[m]simply setting Emacs for themselves - a difficult quest.
12:36:21zevlgwhy not? Emacs is pretty good since ~2014
12:37:21Jipok[m]I would say that in itself Emacs not friendly.
12:37:33Araqthat's a different topic.
12:37:48Araqtell me what's broken and should be removed from the website.
12:38:46Jipok[m]Aporia IDE?
12:39:37Araqis it broken?
12:39:44Araqor just not your cup of tea?
12:39:45Jipok[m]no
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12:40:26Jipok[m]why it was called ide?
12:40:56Jipok[m]it's just an editor with highlight.
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12:43:50Araqwell it has nimsuggest integration, hence IDE :P
12:44:32cheatfateAn IDE normally consists of a source code editor, build automation tools and a debugger.
12:44:51cheatfateMost modern IDEs have intelligent code completion.
12:45:10cheatfateso without debugger, Aporia is not IDE
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12:48:22Araqok, that convinces me, will rename it
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12:51:44dom96It was intended for Aporia to become an IDE
12:52:00dom96But GTK turned out too much of a pain
12:52:24dom96I would say that an IDE also has to have refactoring capabilities
12:54:36cheatfateAnd Jipok[m] is right about packages, i think packages must mention about OS they support and must be removed from packages repository if they remain broken for some time
12:55:04cheatfateor maybe not removed, but marked as `broken`
12:56:14dom96Agreed
12:56:20dom96We can use the `broken` tag for this
12:56:46cheatfatewhat about `os supported`?
12:57:54dom96hrm, would a new field in the .nimble files be acceptable for that?
12:58:54cheatfateit can be `generic`, eg. not using any os specific calls, or list of `os` supported
12:59:00cheatfatenew field will be good
12:59:17cheatfateand can be `unspecified` for old packages
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13:01:30rokupsAraq should fasm support be removed? Should masm support be removed from that PR as well? We dont really need them.
13:01:56Araqok, never got it to work with fasm either
13:02:00Araqremove it.
13:03:34rokupsjust fasm or both?
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13:08:43carterzaany opengl wizards online?
13:08:55carterzathat can tell me what is going on here with my skeleton - http://imgur.com/a/fzNJw
13:09:37dom96cheatfate: feel free to create an issue
13:10:38Araqrokups: both
13:10:52dom96carterza: heh, that looks funny :)
13:10:57flyxcarterza: what's your question?
13:11:28carterzawell something isn’t right
13:11:38carterzasome of the bones are rotated in the wrong direction it would appear
13:11:49carterzaI’ve gone over my matrix multiplication code like 100 times and I can’t find anything wrong
13:12:00carterzawondering if it’s a rotation issue or if it’s a parent to child transform issue or what
13:12:12carterzajust a general idea of what to look at next I guess
13:12:38flyxI don't think it is possible to determine that from an animated gif
13:12:44carterzaI can share code
13:13:05carterzaand last night people were able to help me just based on a gif :D
13:13:13flyxa frame-by-frame comparison may help
13:13:30carterzathey pointed me towards my matrices code which is where a lot of my problems were lying
13:13:41carterzasince assimp and glm are NOT row major / column major compatible
13:16:16Jipok[m]Araq: I did not mean to say that the nim or aporia bad. Just read an article about nim I am very inspired. I liked very much in that language. But all my joy broke about the inability to collect anything working.
13:19:15Jipok[m]carterza: are you a dEngine developer?
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13:21:40carterzaI’m the only dEngine developer :D
13:23:56Jipok[m]for the graphic output you are using pure Opengl?
13:24:08carterzammhmm
13:24:11carterzasdl2 for windowing
13:25:51Jipok[m]Have you considered the option to use a ready-made rendering library?
13:26:13Jipok[m]eg bgfx
13:26:37carterzaI did but I the bindings to bgfx are flimsy at best
13:26:50carterzaif someone were to write a cross platform renderer in nim I’d be all over it
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13:28:10carterzathe nim bgfx bindings are sketcy at best
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13:35:04Jipok[m]carterza: I wanted to try their hand at creating 2d games. What advice do you have for rendering?
13:35:26carterzawell if you can live with software rendering, there are some great guides on creating nim games with SDL2
13:35:37carterzathere’s even an sdl2 game engine Vladar built for nim
13:35:45Vladarsdl2 supports hardware acceleration
13:36:02carterzaoh yes I forgot about this
13:36:04carterzabut no batching
13:36:29carterzaso your draw calls wont’ be optimized unless you manage the opengl context yourself Jipok
13:36:34carterzaI gotta run to work, be back on in a few
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13:38:09Vladarwell, for a simple 2D game sdl2 pumps an impressive performance anyway https://github.com/Vladar4/nimgame2/tree/master/demos/demo1
13:39:55Jipok[m]What should not I use if I want to then compile the game into the js?
13:44:49VladarJipok[m]: if you want to use a js, you should rather look into HTML5 Canvas
13:45:38ehmryif you are not sold on sdl2, there is also libretro, I find it more portable than SDL
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13:46:07ehmrybut I don't write games, just port them
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13:55:34dom96It seems like we should use some of the code described here: https://blackhole12.blogspot.ch/2017/02/windows-wont-let-my-program-crash.html
13:55:43dom96To ensure Nim programs crash on Windows when they're suppose to
13:55:56dom96Although even that person couldn't get it to always crash
14:00:30FromGitter<optik-aper> @dom96 @vegansk It worked with that filename on Ubuntu. I'll let you know if I turn anything up. Thanks again.
14:12:58FromGitter<zacharycarter> Looks like nim bgfx got updated. Time to write xplatform windowing code
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15:20:51fvshi, can't find this in the manual - howto add element to start of seq instead of appending?
15:22:15Vladarfvs: insert, obviously
15:23:59fvsVladar, thanks. There are 6 references to "insert" on the mannual - none point to sequences/arrays :)
15:25:16Vladarfvs: https://nim-lang.org/docs/system.html#insert,seq[T],T
15:29:17fvsthanks, back to Nim after a while. Tend to forget these nuances.
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16:15:35demi-when writing code, it seems like prefixing functions and types with their package name is optional; most of the examples do not include the package name prefix, is this just stylistic convention and the only time to do this is to avoid potential name collisions?
16:17:03flyxdemi-: everything is imported by default. you can do `from mymodule import nil` to force prefixing.
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16:19:35demi-ok, i tend to write code like `os.joinPath()` rather than `joinPath()` so i know where it is coming from -- before this became a strong habit i figure i should ask to make sure that i'm not missing something about the import system as to why none of the examples use prefixing beyond "they don't _have_ to"
16:20:42FromGitter<andreaferretti> another reason is that Nim has unified function call syntax
16:21:12FromGitter<andreaferretti> which obviously requires a function name not prefixed by the module name
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16:22:17FromGitter<andreaferretti> for instance, the following are all equivalent: `os.joinPath("usr", "lib")`, `joinPath("usr", "lib")` and `"usr".joinPath("lib")`
16:23:15demi-yeah, i'm not a fan of that tbh
16:23:15flyx„obviously“ well it does not in C++ ;)
16:24:05flyxdemi-: you're not the only one, but we have discussed it multiple times and stayed with it.
16:24:15dom96demi-: when I first read your mention of "prefixing" I thought you meant: osJoinPath. But feel free to use `os.joinPath`, I wouldn't call that "prefixing" though.
16:25:47FromGitter<andreaferretti> I like it very much
16:26:16fvsIs it possible that restricting imports from a module (say math) may influence other modules that need other functions within math. I think I ran into this issue with alea recently.
16:26:28dom96I'm currently working in Python and all of my colleagues are using PyCharm's Alt+Enter import functionality
16:26:34FromGitter<andreaferretti> it lets you write some things more clearly but at the same time does not imply dynamic dispatch as in OO languages
16:26:37dom96Which inserts stuff like: from os import joinPath
16:26:52Xedom96: literally on the fly?
16:27:05dom96Xe: yeah, it's very nice.
16:27:13Xeno i mean
16:27:19Xeinstead of imports at the top of the file
16:27:32Xethey just pepper imports all over, is that what you're saying?
16:27:33flyxfvs: I don't really see what you're referring to. if your module imports some things from math, another module you use still imports whatever it wants from math
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16:29:06dom96Xe: no, PyCharm adds it to the top of the file.
16:29:53Xeah
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16:41:45libmanNim's syntax should be optimized for a decent IDE (or in-browser code viewer) that easily shows you what module anything you point at comes from. This results in leaner syntax. Optimizing for how code looks like in notepad / cat / paper / cave wall painting is no longer a priority.
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17:50:20FromGitter<barcharcraz> Yeah. ALSO languages with complex overload resolution have some different syntax goals than scripting langs
17:50:29dom96Araq: Has C's undefined behaviour ever been a problem for Nim?
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17:54:42Araqno.
18:08:35dom96I guess there is no way for me to convince this guy otherwise, right? https://twitter.com/ebassi/status/831524694738165760
18:08:49dom96(and his other tweet https://twitter.com/ebassi/status/831525017615740930)
18:10:35Araqdom96: tell him we have an LLVM backend too.
18:11:15dom96ok
18:23:56demi-i wouldn't bother tbh sounds incredibly non-sensical
18:24:04FromGitter<barcharcraz> Yeah
18:24:50Araqcoming soon: "illegal opcode" exceptions in Java
18:25:01Araqbecause Java JIT compiles to assembler... oh wait
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18:25:59demi-is the llvm backend coming to a stable release soon?
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18:43:08Jipok[m]How much really create the editor like Emacs, but only with nim instead eLisp?
18:43:12cheatfatei think apple will be forgotten before llvm based compiler becomes as fast as gcc
18:44:33FromGitter<barcharcraz> They are pretty close tbh
18:44:49dom96demi-: No plans for that currently.
18:45:04Jipok[m] To be more precise. How long it may take one person?
18:45:20demi-:(
18:45:28FromGitter<barcharcraz> I'm more excited for the ability to do stuff like D's Calypso
18:45:41cheatfateJipok[m], maybe year or two, if you don't have any experience in creation of editors
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18:48:18Jipok[m]And how long will it take to develop the editor similar finished Aporia?
18:50:08dom96demi-: compiling to C is an advantage in my book
18:52:09FromGitter<barcharcraz> Although I guess a clang based c2nim could be just as good as Calypso
18:52:25cheatfateJipok[m], if you don't have experience with `gtk` and `gtksourceview` - month or two
18:53:32FromGitter<barcharcraz> Can IRC bridge tell me who's in the channel?
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18:55:02dom96barcharcraz: don't think so.
18:56:04FromGitter<barcharcraz> All right. I want to interrogate filcuc about dotherside and nimqml
18:57:20cheatfateCompilation to C is a big advantage, but generated C code is too ugly now
18:57:55FromGitter<barcharcraz> Idk the C is an intermediate lang
18:58:16dom96filcuc isn't here
18:58:25federico3cheatfate: it could be more readable, yes, but that's not the main goal
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19:00:28cheatfatefederico3, until we dont have debugger, this is biggest disadvantage for newcomers and for me too
19:01:36FromGitter<barcharcraz> There's work being done on symbol files to fix that
19:01:43FromGitter<barcharcraz> I agree tho
19:02:39demi-dom96: what advantage does it have for direct compilation over something like LLVM IR
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19:03:24dom96demi-: Easier interoperability with C libraries and I'm fairly sure it's more portable also.
19:04:20federico3way more portable: Nim runs on ARM, mips, ppc, microcontrollers, the dishwasher
19:05:10demi-how is it more portable than what llvm can to by assembling a binary from it, or transpiling into C using llvm?
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19:06:28demi-that is what i don't follow
19:07:29*cheatfate call to libman
19:14:58cheatfatedemi-, its much better when developer has options to choose more, then just put all eggs on titanic like `llvm`.
19:15:43federico3demi-: what's your question?
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19:17:20cheatfatealso last PR's for llvm backend shows to me biggest problem... it needs one more pass to get all preprocessored constants stored inside of header files before start to compile your nim program...
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19:18:16cheatfateotherwise we need to have all constants already defined in stdlib
19:19:12cheatfateso we need to duplicate whole linux/bsd/macos/windows headers' constants to stdlib
19:19:28cheatfatewith all crazy #defines
19:21:14demi-federico3: i don't think i understand the argument that what exists now is more portable than using llvm
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19:25:36federico3demi-: Nim->C->clang->llvm or https://github.com/arnetheduck/nlvm ?
19:26:47demi-i'm asking how Nim->custom C code gen is more portable than Nim->llvm code gen
19:29:05cheatfatedemi-, is llvm has official support for arduino's avr-atmel?
19:30:14Araqdemi-: LLVM doesn't target every CPU arch under the sun, GCC does
19:30:33demi-cheatfate: possibly? https://github.com/avr-llvm/llvm
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19:30:59demi-Araq: sure, but why does it have to? it should be able to turn it into something that can
19:31:34Araqdemi-: I don't understand this remark.
19:32:28flyxhow can I suppress the 'CC: somefile.nim' output of nim c?
19:32:41Araqflyx: maybe --verbosity:0
19:32:42demi-my understanding of the llvm system is that I can write code in C or objective-c and llvm should be able to be used to transpile it to any language it has support for, eg javascript and the resulting codegen it does for javascript while work
19:33:09flyxAraq: ah yes, that worked. I tried --hints:off --warnings:off
19:33:42demi-so my question was based in the premise of cutting out the need for the middle-man compiler by using llvm to transpile as well as generate asm for a compiled binary
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19:34:31demi-so, to your point about not supporting every arch, yeah, but it doesn't have to have that support builtin if it can still transpile to C as it does now and give a compiler that does the ability to build that out
19:34:32ehmryif " cat string constants like ```Foo& Bar``` does that happen at compile time?
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19:35:36Araqehmry: yes
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19:35:55Araqsee? I knew it. the word doesn't even exist.
19:36:06Araqit's called "compiler" and "compile".
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19:36:52demi-transpiler is a source-to-source compiler
19:37:15Araqthen neither LLVM nor Nim are transpilers :P
19:37:53cheatfatedemi-, then GCC is transpiler too
19:37:54demi-i would disagree, as you turn nim source into C then compile that, you aren't compiling nim code directly.
19:38:28Araqneither does GCC, it emits GNU assembler.
19:39:16Araqah but assembler doesn't count because assemblers don't optimize (hmm they do) and assemblers do no deal with ascii text (hmm they do)
19:40:01Araqah but assembler doesn't count because you are not supposed to look at that code.
19:40:19Araqwell you know... ;-) neither is the generated C code for human beings.
19:40:57dom96AFAIK transpiler means you are translating a high level language to another high level language
19:41:08dom96TypeScript -> JavaScript
19:41:08AraqC is not a high level language.
19:41:13dom96Indeed.
19:41:27cheatfate20 years ago C was high level language
19:41:32dom96Araq: I'm not disagreeing with you, Nim isn't a transpiler.
19:41:49dom96Nim is still higher level than C.
19:42:16flyxC never was a high level language
19:42:22dom96"A source-to-source compiler translates between programming languages that operate at approximately the same level of abstraction, while a traditional compiler translates from a higher level programming language to a lower level programming language."
19:42:52flyxit has almost no type checking, types are optional in a lot of places, and so on
19:42:57Araqdom96: I disagree with that definition. source-to-source means the output is actually for human beings.
19:43:44dom96"Examples of transcompiled languages include Closure Compiler, Coccinelle, CoffeeScript, Dart, Haxe, Nim, TypeScript[4] and Emscripten."
19:43:48dom96omg
19:43:54dom96(From wikipedia)
19:43:56Araqyou can compile C to Java and I wouldn't call it a "transpiler".
19:44:05cheatfateflyx, "High-level language" refers to the higher level of abstraction from machine language. Rather than dealing with registers, memory addresses and call stacks, high-level languages deal with variables, arrays, objects, complex arithmetic or boolean expressions, subroutines and functions, loops, threads, locks, and other abstract computer science concepts, with a focus on usability over optimal program efficiency.
19:44:25cheatfateflyx, so C is exactly `high` `level` `language`
19:44:39dom96although Nim transpiles to JavaScript I suppose
19:45:14cheatfateflyx, The terms high-level and low-level are inherently relative. Some decades ago, the C language, and similar languages, were most often considered "high-level", as it supported concepts such as expression evaluation, parameterised recursive functions, and data types and structures, while assembly language was considered "low-level".
19:45:38Araqthese definitions all don't make sense. c2nim is a transpiler, you have to mess with the resulting Nim code and often even edit it.
19:45:40flyxcheatfate: C deals with memory addresses. and registers. it even has a `register` keyword.
19:46:23flyxcheatfate: you can paste your personal definitions here, but they will not change my view on the subject
19:46:50cheatfateflyx, this is wikipedia
19:46:55cheatfatehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-level_programming_language
19:47:12flyxyeah, wikipedia tends to be wrong on computer science definitions
19:47:44flyxbut I don't see any reason for arguing further
19:47:53dom96Cool. Somebody submitted my "Nim core developer" wanted thread to Hacker News.
19:48:44demi-Araq: ok, well, none of this debate was my intention at all, i merely wanted to know the merits of the current nim compiler vs llvm purely for direct compilation to an executable binary, not with regards to taking the intermediate C code and specifically compiling it for another platform
19:49:09demi-because based on the responses it seemed like there were but nobody gave direct details
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19:49:49Araqdemi-: sorry about the pointless debate.
19:49:58Araqbut I still don't understand your question?
19:50:20Araqso you like to know if compiling to C buys us efficiency?
19:50:52dom96Araq: I think the question boils down to "What advantages does compiling to C vs. LLVM bring?"
19:50:58demi-i completely understand and agree with it being portable, i was curious if there was anything else that tied the compiler to the current model
19:52:23Araqwell, it's like the answer to c2nim's model. LLVM wasn't ready when work on Nim began.
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19:52:53Araqin the meantime we figured we can also generate C++ code and hence have really good interop with C++
19:53:17Araqwhich is something an LLVM based compiler would struggle much more with.
19:54:15Araqstarting from scratch, would I do target C again? likely.
19:54:43dom96Which makes me wonder, would anybody be interested in writing tutorials for Nim? One good tutorial might be "Wrapping C++ libraries in Nim"
19:54:56dom96It would be a good thing to link to on the new website's feature list
19:55:58demi-dom96: i will likely write one about my experiences with nim soon, but for my own blog
19:56:09dom96demi-: great :)
19:56:55dom96Maybe we could hire a core documentor too?
19:57:13Araqcheatfate: btw new mangling rules have arrived, locals are not mangled if we can help it
19:58:12cheatfateAraq, thanks :) but is it possible to make mangling symbols less long?
19:58:34cheatfatemangled symbols
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19:59:41federico3speaking of C, did anyone try to run Coverity on the C sources?
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20:06:50subsetparkHaving intermediate C targets also means that calling Nim over a C FFI is relatively pleasant
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20:15:21Araqcheatfate: no and why does it matter anyway.
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20:15:45Araqhow hard is it to remove _HASH from the identifier
20:16:44demi-why not write a symbol demangler if it is that much of a pain?
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20:20:16Araqwith --debugger:native the compiler produces .ndi files you can use to see the mappings
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20:23:46libmancheatfate: wat?
20:25:15libmanI never advocated anything different from compiling to C.
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20:43:38carterzatime to switch out opengl for bgfx
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21:46:27FromGitter<raydf> Hello everyone
21:46:51FromGitter<raydf> is there any example of xmlparser usage?
21:51:08dom96raydf: https://github.com/achesak/nim-rss/blob/master/rss.nim
21:51:17dom96(Keep in mind that it doesn't follow Nim's style guide though)
21:52:09dom96This sort of thing should be in our `example` directory.
21:52:20FromGitter<raydf> thanks @dom96, found also https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/5359
21:52:53*dom96 can't tell if people need ideas on how to contribute to Nim or whether they just need more time to make their contributions
21:52:55FromGitter<raydf> np, i know there's a lot to do to get nim better.
21:53:51dom96raydf: be sure to use the xmltree module as well, using only the parser is tedious.
21:54:08FromGitter<raydf> any example for xmltree?
21:54:57FromGitter<raydf> how to parse a string to xmltree?
21:55:44dom96the link I posted uses xmltree
21:56:03dom96hrm, I think the code there can be simplified
21:56:17dom96surely 'xml.child("copyright").innerText' can be written as 'xml["copyright"].innerText'
21:56:25gokrCan this be interesting? https://github.com/vegansk/xmltools
21:56:51FromGitter<raydf> nice like the syntax
21:57:02FromGitter<raydf> is there any xpath compatibility or namespace handling?
21:57:13FromGitter<raydf> i'm trying to read a soap data
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21:57:27gokrAnd on Rosetta: https://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/XML/Input#Nim
21:57:51*gokr just googling here... gnite folks!
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21:59:44dom96I don't think there is any xpath support
21:59:47dom96not sure about namespaces
22:00:18FromGitter<raydf> is this using a xml lib binding or pure nim?
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22:02:01FromGitter<raydf> nevermind, reading the code right now
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22:12:59FromGitter<raydf> the httpclient lib is returning unhandled exception: SSL support is not available
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22:14:05FromGitter<raydf> where does one flag the compiling process in nimble for enabling ssl
22:14:07FromGitter<raydf> ?
22:16:38enthus1astcompile it with "nim c -d:ssl foo.nim"
22:16:44cheatfatehttps://nim-lang.org/docs/httpclient.html#ssl-tls-support
22:16:57cheatfateenthus1ast, i'm answered your question on forum
22:17:54FromGitter<raydf> @enthus1ast, thanks
22:18:30enthus1astraydf you can also create a file like yourname.nim.cfg and write "-d:ssl" into it
22:19:18FromGitter<raydf> ok, in the nimble file i used --d:ssl and it works
22:19:40enthus1astcheatfate: you basically create as seq
22:19:55cheatfateenthus1ast, yep and seq can hold any size of message
22:20:08cheatfateenthus1ast, i think it must work
22:20:47enthus1aststrangely i tried this as well (not exactly like you've done it) it ate it but i got incorrect results (always the same signature)
22:21:01enthus1astill try you code
22:23:58cheatfateit can be a problem with using array as argument
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22:24:36cheatfateyou need to check generated c code
22:24:45cheatfateis it passed as array, not as pointer
22:28:03FromGitter<barcharcraz> Native SSL on Windows would be rad
22:28:53cheatfatebarcharcraz: nobody trusts windows ssl implementation except microsoft :)
22:29:16FromGitter<barcharcraz> True
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22:32:09enthus1astcheatfate: you code works
22:32:16enthus1astty very much
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22:37:46dom96ooh yay, we're on the front page of HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13646372
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22:47:40carterzanice!
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22:56:21libmanYaaay! :D 
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22:57:40FromGitter<zacharycarter> hrm I need a image loading library
22:57:50FromGitter<zacharycarter> guess a stb_image wrapper is my best bet?
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23:04:14FromGitter<raydf> thanks @gokr for the xmltools lib info
23:10:37dom96It's awesome seeing things like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13648130
23:11:02dom96thanks for writing that subsetpark :)
23:11:21dom96It makes me want a "Companies that use Nim" page on our website
23:11:26subsetpark:)
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23:21:16dom96good night guys
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23:30:52carterzathis is a nice way to embed shaders in a file - https://github.com/Glowny/Areenajabat/blob/bddd09235a4f677a81cbfe2de6f9766d70030de1/src/graphics/vs_texture.bin.h
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23:42:45FromGitter<barcharcraz> can c2nim deal with pure virtual functions
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23:54:12carterzanot sure
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