<< 17-04-2016 >>
00:00:05Raizkrux02, cool
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00:00:17krux02Raiz, it's interesting it's productive, it has tooling, it has bugs
00:00:31RaizC is kinda broken and old, so I've been looking for an alternative
00:00:35Raizso, I found nim
00:01:36ephjagood choice!
00:01:41Raizis it true that I can write outstanding binaries without requiring a run-time?
00:03:04krux02a "run-time" is most of the time nothing more than a garbage collector, and you can write nim code without using the garbage collector (I am doing it)
00:03:22Raizhow about stdlib?
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00:04:12krux02stdlib is not a runtime, as the name already says
00:04:59Raizbut isn't writing useful programs require calling functions from others libs?
00:05:18krux02yes it is
00:05:23krux02and nim can call a c
00:05:33krux02there are a lot of c library wrappers
00:05:54krux02if you want to get started, I recommend you to play around on your own
00:06:03krux02start with for example sdl
00:06:08RaizI would definitely do
00:06:14krux02look at the tutorials for sdl and apply them to nim
00:06:26krux02(I use sdl2)
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00:07:14Raizalright, thanks for help
00:07:14krux02it's not a perfect wrapper, for example for event management you have to use the cast operator, but that's acceptable
00:07:57krux02but don't expect too much from the beginning, the error messages from the compiler could be from time to time a bit sparse
00:08:09krux02in other words non-informative
00:12:34Raizthere is no copying.txt file here: https://github.com/nim-lang/osinfo/tree/master/src
00:13:14Raizwhoever is responsible for this repo, he must fix it
00:13:22krux02ephja: thanks for the link, but apparently I can't use it to pass arguments to the passL pragma
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00:18:14ephjaRaiz: "See the file "copying.txt", included in this distribution, for details about the copyright."
00:18:21ephjanot sure if that's good enough
00:18:23ephjakrux02: ok
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02:49:17onionhammer"
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15:10:26nvt_Anyone here know how to extract the runtime type information from a ptr? I've found setObjectRuntimeType for initializing the rtti, but I have not found a corresponding way to retrieve it
15:11:57nvt_for context, I'm trying to figure out how to copy an object allocated in shared memory whose type is not known exactly at compile time
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15:19:39reactormonknvt_, construct an enum field for a kind object / ADT?
15:20:42BrotherLy_why would i use nim over java
15:23:15reactormonkBrotherLy_, maybe you like a type good type system, macros and speed?
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15:25:22Arrrrspeed + much less boilerplate
15:26:02nvt_To do an enum field for the object kind I would have to know all of the possible types ahead of time and declare them in one place. That would work, but I'd much prefer to avoid that
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15:26:55VarriountArrrr: You forgot not having to deal with the mind-numbing type heirarchies.
15:27:38ephjawhat's it like debugging such code? not too fun I imagine
15:28:35reactormonknvt_, your choices for are a) dynamic dispatch via method, b) data types a la carte
15:28:55reactormonknvt_, there is no reflection in nim that I know of.
15:29:04Varriountreactormonk: Uh, yes there is?
15:29:06nvt_hmm, but if nim can do the dynamic dispatch by method, it must be able to introspect on the type
15:29:12reactormonkVarriount, oh, tell me.
15:29:22Varriountreactormonk: http://nim-lang.org/docs/typeinfo.html
15:29:43ephjanvt_: does it?
15:30:36reactormonknvt_, you'll have to tell the compiler to attach the type information via e.g. typeinfo.
15:30:37nvt_ephja: it would seem that way, in order to decide which version of the method to call at runtime it has to know what the type is, yeah?
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15:30:57ephjanim's GC architecture is more flexible too, right?
15:31:07Varriountephja: In what way?
15:31:17reactormonkVarriount, from what I understand, this adds type information to the objects that isn't there by default?
15:31:19nvt_reactormonk: yeah, I'm attaching the type information with setObjectRuntimeType, what I don't know is how to get that back out
15:31:33reactormonknvt_, which problem are you trying to solve?
15:31:35nvt_though that's only necessary when you alloc with createShared or some such
15:31:58Varriountreactormonk: Reflection information is only added when it's actually needed.
15:32:16ephjaVarriount: can java's GC be enabled and disabled, and does it have a realtime GC?
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15:32:53nvt_Hah, fair question. Writing a game, all of the logic is broken up into different components that are responsible for some subset of the game/control/graphics logic
15:33:25nvt_They communicate by means of events, so, lighting updates in response to world change event, graphics updates in response to light change event
15:34:00reactormonkSo you basically want actors?
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15:34:18reactormonkOr channels.
15:34:33Varriountephja: It appears you can query information about a collection... but no, there doesn't appear to be a standard interface within the Java library.
15:34:36nvt_something along those lines, and yes, I am aware of channels
15:34:54nvt_but I don't think they fit with the threading model I'm going for
15:35:14reactormonknvt_, I'm just wary of switching over to dynamic typing, that's why I advise against it.
15:35:18Varriountephja: Oh, and there's System.gc(), which may or may not run a collection.
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15:35:47ephjaok
15:35:57nvt_reactormonk: yeah, I understand that it's not nim's preferred approach, I certainly wouldn't advocate it to other folk
15:36:04Arrrrjava's GC can be tweaked, but it is all dark sorcery
15:36:05nvt_but I am still interested to determine if I can do it
15:36:24ephjaSystem.out.println *shudder*
15:36:32Arrrrhahah
15:36:37VarriountArrrr: The only way I know of tweaking it is through command line arguments to the JVM.
15:36:49VarriountAs far as I know, there's no programmatic API.
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15:37:23ArrrrBut still it is an api
15:37:48nvt_And I think the specific situation of: you have a "ptr Base" that may contain "ptr Inherited1" or "ptr Inherited2", and you want to make a copy of it, also on the shared heap, is potentially relevant regardless
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15:39:38reactormonknvt_, hmm, go ahead and tinker. I've never done polymorphic OO programming, so I can't follow :-/
15:39:43Varriountnvt_: What's your problem again?
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15:40:36nvt_Varriount: Well, in specific, I have a "ptr Event", and I do not know the exact kind of event that is being pointed to. I'd like to make a copy of that event on the shared heap
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15:40:52nvt_to do that I need to allocate space for the new copy, so I need to know the size of the object that is pointed to
15:41:13Varriountnvt_: Interesting, I had this problem come up today in a thought experiment about RPC calls
15:41:37nvt_Varriount: hah, excellent, very timely then
15:41:49Varriountnvt_: Look at the code for the deepcopy procedure.
15:41:50reactormonknvt_, you can call getSize or something like that via typeinfo
15:42:01reactormonkah, it's just called "size"
15:42:30nvt_Let me experiment real quick, when I tried that out it was looking at the compile time type, I though
15:42:36nvt_thought^
15:43:16Varriountreactormonk: That will get the size of the object, but if there are any references/pointers in the object, it won't count them as well.
15:44:49nvt_so, just did some quick code, size gives me the same result for different types in the pointed to value
15:45:23nvt_but I may be doing something wrong
15:45:36reactormonknvt_, are they different size?
15:46:44nvt_yeah, I made a test object type "Base" with a single int, then a type "Foo" that inherits from Base and has two additional fields
15:47:16nvt_I then created a Base object and a Foo object on the heap, then took ptrs to each and stored them in "ptr Base" variables, then asked for the size of each
15:47:25reactormonknvt_, you should be able to use genericDeepCopy(src, dest, any.rawType) from what I see
15:47:44nvt_genericDeepCopy? Interesting, I missed that, that sounds very promising
15:48:21nvt_reactormonk: what module is that in?
15:48:28reactormonknvt_, no module, it's in system
15:49:00nvt_oh, I was looking at the system docs and I didn't see it, so I figured it must be elsewhere
15:50:31Varriountnvt_: I'd say that size is broken then, the code looks like it should give the size of the type: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/master/lib/core/typeinfo.nim#L146
15:51:37nvt_Varriount: I think what's happening is that if you just ask for the size of the variable itself, it tells you the size of a pointer (fair enough), if you derefer it and take the size of that it's derefering it into an object of the Base type regardless of what its actual type is, then taking the size of that, which is always the size of Base
15:52:14nvt_so I guess the size code is correct, it just doesn't help in this case unless I figure out a different way to use it
15:52:32reactormonknvt_, you wanted copy, try the genericDeepCopy.
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15:52:50nvt_reactormonk: it seems like the third argument to that deep copy function needs to be the runtime type of the object, am I wrong in that?
15:54:25reactormonknvt_, no, I think you're quite right.
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15:55:15nvt_I think I'll go dig on this for a bit, try using the stuff from hti.nim that the typeinfo module uses under the hood, see if I can figure something out
15:55:36nvt_thanks for all the help everyone
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16:08:20VarriountInteresting... The reason that size() is wrong is because the generated C code passes in only the parent section of the type
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16:21:32ephjashouldn't it be possible to apply macros (user-defined pragmas) to types and fields?
16:22:35reactormonkephja, types yes, fields not sure.
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16:37:51ephjareactormonk: this is wrong? "macro m*(x: typed): typed = result = x ... type T {.m.} = object"
16:38:31reactormonkephja, I'm not sure if x: typed is correct here
16:38:38reactormonkbut I don't know enough about macros :-/
16:41:23ephjaare you still sure that it's possible? :p
16:42:16ephjaI wanted to try something related to my serialization ideas, which was to annotate fields with pragmas in order to control the output
16:43:56reactormonkephja, I'd just go with the typeclass approach here, way easier.
16:44:16reactormonkYes, macros are easy, but still annoying to debug.
16:46:06reactormonkephja, aka proc encode[T](x: T): SerializedStuff = ...
16:48:41ephjawell it's not working on types (invalid pragma)
16:49:00ephjathe idea was to reduce the need for procs, but I might be able to simplify it anyway with metaprogramming
16:50:50reactormonkSo you want to generate the procs via macro?
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17:34:59ephjareactormonk: the idea was to specify serialization behavior declaratively by attaching metadata to types and fields, but I don't know if it would be useful
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17:41:11ephjafield: {.serialize: false.} for example, in order to skip it, but that might not be useful
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17:56:25ephjaanyway, the marshal module sometimes generates more data than necessary, but it is convenient
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19:57:48nvt_Hello again! Regarding the RTTI of objects on the shared heap, it looks like if they have been properly initialized (using setObjectRuntimeType or some other means) then the first section of the object's memory should be a pointer to a PNimType, which is itself a pointer to the TNimType which has all of the relevant type info
19:58:18nvt_so something as simple as the following should pull it out: proc getRtti(env: pointer): PNimType = cast[ptr PNimType](env)[]
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20:00:03nvt_I recognize that this is something of a hack, and my apologies in advance to anyone who understands the language better than I and is horrified by this approach
20:02:55reactormonknvt_, take a look at marshall
20:04:16ephja*marshall[0..^2]
20:04:48nvt_reactormonk, yeah, that was one of the places I looked through, I think it's the only place in the nim source that uses setObjectRuntimeType so it seemed relevant
20:08:36ephjaI'm trying something with typeinfo, but I guess it adds unnecessary overhead in some cases
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21:01:19krux02why does the {.compile: "file.cpp".} pragma not compile file.cpp, but instead just throws the error: "file.o" file not found
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21:47:52elroodkrux02, perhaps your nimcache directory contains a corresponding sha1 file, making the compiler believe the object file is present
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21:51:44krux02elrood: yes there are sha1 files, how did they get there?
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21:55:23elrooddon't ask me, maybe the object files got deleted somehow. sounds like it's worthy of a bug report anyhow, the compiler shouldn't rely on a hashfile's presence alone
22:04:04elrooduh, it's even worse. the hashfile is generated even if the source file's compilation fails
22:06:27elroodso even if the source is fixed there won't be an attempt to compile it again, since the hashfile is present and nim's compiler just assumes the object file has already successfully been generated
22:09:57krux02elrood: I think it should work like simple make: if object file is older than cpp => rebuild. No hash file generation. This is not perfect, since the object file does not depend on once source file alone, but it is at least a widely known behavior for c/c++ programmers.
22:13:11elroodactually, forget what i just said last, either the compiler is acting inconsistently or my not being entirely sober is the problem here. i'd be willing to admit it might be the latter
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22:26:38krux02elrood: for the moment -> rm -f nimcache/*.sha1 && nim c myfile.nim does the trick
22:28:25elroodyep. i'd still file a bug report for that, the compiler just relying on the existence of a hashfile is quite obviously insufficient
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23:34:58VarriountAnyone have a good prefix/suffix for string/sequence procedures that mutate their argument in-place?
23:38:31krux02Varriount, if you have verbs, you can use present and past form of them
23:40:32krux02alternatively I can recomment the wor inplace as prefix, it's easy to understand
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