<< 17-11-2021 >>
00:11:22FromDiscord<evoalg> In reply to @tk "http://ix.io/3Fci - this kind": tk sorry I'm just wondering what output are you wanting from that instead?
00:23:01tkFromDiscord: I would like the behaviour of collect: for x in y: {x} except that instead of what looks like a single-element set of x I want an actual set there
00:23:08tkso the end result is a union of all sets collected
00:23:15tker, evoalg: sorry, muscle memory
00:28:14tkhttp://ix.io/3FcO - as an unrelated note - AOC 2019 day 3 in nim. Comments (except for regarding the use of 3 space indent and snake case) welcome
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00:35:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Hmmm collect doesnt seem like the right thing here, you're iterating over a collection then wanting to return a single one?
00:35:54tkwell that's kind of what it does in the {x} case
00:36:09tkit returns a single HashSet
00:37:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> What's the expected output from the collect i guess is what i need to ask
00:37:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> is it `{1, 2, 3}`?
00:38:13tkso I would like collect: for i in 1..3: {i} and collect: for i in 1..3: let s = {i}; s to behave the same
00:38:40tkor some way of doing what the former does with the latter
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00:40:25tkhttp://ix.io/3FcN - a slightly improved version of the code before
00:41:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Hmm i wonder if a new `collect` variant needs to exist so you can do `collectWith(call):`
00:42:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> though i guess that'd result to be the same as `collect(initHashSet, incl): for x in 1..3: let s = {i}; s`
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00:42:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Oddly the collect macro reasons the proc to call by expression's value
00:43:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I know that really makes collect manually done, but presently i cannot reason anything that makes any sense here
00:44:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> alternatively instead of adding the call to `incl` you just make the expression value be `incl(s)` or `add(s)`
00:45:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Ah fuck yea i like this idea more take a type as the first parameter and make it have to have a `init(_: typedesc[T]): T`, then you can just do `collect(HashSet[int]): for i in 1..3: let s = {i} incl(s)`
00:46:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I'm sure someone will say "that's fucking dumb"
00:47:43FromDiscord<impbox [ftsf]> that'd be rude and dismissive and not a nice thing to say
00:48:04FromDiscord<impbox [ftsf]> Instead I'll say, what is `collect` anyway?
00:48:32FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's a macro to short form block statements
00:49:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Both are the same
00:49:18FromDiscord<impbox [ftsf]> I'm looking at the examples and I don't get what they're trying to do
00:49:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3FcS
00:50:00FromDiscord<impbox [ftsf]> hmm, so useful when you want to initialise a variable with a complex thingy?
00:50:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's like list comprehension in python
01:37:13FromDiscord<evoalg> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3Fd0
01:37:48FromDiscord<sharpcdf> I'm reading through the documentation on the `importJs` pragma(`importCpp`), but it isnt really specific, can anyone give an example of the pragma in action?
01:44:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Here's a shitty binding ontop of some of the MRAPI https://github.com/beef331/mrapi/blob/master/src/mrapi.nim
01:44:36FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> This shows the JS and the Nim wrapping it all in one file so it's "nice"
01:52:41FromDiscord<sharpcdf> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Here's a shitty binding": if I may ask, why does it use `{.importC.}` instead of `{.importJs.}`?
01:52:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3Fd3
01:52:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> They do the same thing so only reason is i was using importc
01:53:07FromDiscord<sharpcdf> oh alright
01:53:18FromDiscord<sharpcdf> thanks
01:55:30FromDiscord<sharpcdf> In reply to @Elegantbeef "They do the same": how does the nim compiler find what file contains the given functions? does it just go through all `.js` files in the same directory?
01:56:06FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Nope it doesnt know anything about the js files
01:56:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It just says "yep this is a proc", it's a runtime error
01:56:40FromDiscord<sharpcdf> then how do you give the js files to it?
01:56:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You dont need to
01:57:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> As long as you point it to the right name it doesnt matter
01:57:15FromDiscord<sharpcdf> oh ok
01:57:20FromDiscord<sharpcdf> nice
01:57:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's the same thing with C, the error doesnt happen in Nim's compilation it's in C's compilation
01:57:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Cause Nim just says "Hey i'm calling X here which resides in C"
01:57:52FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Or Js in this case
01:58:20FromDiscord<sharpcdf> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Cause Nim just says": i think i know what you're saying, but what if I want to import an external javascript/c library, like raylib or react native?
01:58:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You import it?
01:59:20FromDiscord<sharpcdf> do you just do `{.importJs: "someFile.js".}`?
01:59:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> When you do `importC`/`importJs` what nim does in the generated code is write what you told it, so if you do `proc doThing{.importJs: "heh".}` when you do `doThing()` it'll write `heh`
02:00:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You might be thinking of https://nim-lang.org/docs/jsffi.html#require%2Ccstring ?
02:00:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> But you do not import js files into Nim, you import js function/type names and then nim just emits what it should
02:00:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> So that mrapi example is the same regardless if that js is in the nim file or in another file
02:00:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> All you have to do if it's in another file is ensure it loads before the nim file does
02:11:31FromDiscord<evoalg> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3Fd6
02:15:15FromDiscord<ajusa> Anyone know which version of tcc Nim is compatible with? I get segfaults with the version that I seem to have
02:15:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I've used tcc with devel/1.60 no problem
02:16:05FromDiscord<sharpcdf> In reply to @Elegantbeef "All you have to": not sure i understand, if you have a function that is defined in javascript(in either a local file or something like react), would you still just copy the function like normal with `{.importJs.}`?
02:16:13FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Possibly the `asClosure` does some magic so there might be a chance they're missmatches↵(@evoalg)
02:16:41FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You just need to annotate the procedure in nim
02:17:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Actually yea seems fine evoalg, i actually tested that
02:17:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The `resetableClosure` cannot be reassigned presently
02:17:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It creates a anonymous object and uses it
02:18:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Like for the example i gave previously `a` is a `AnonResetClos`gensym150\`
02:18:51FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> And no that doesnt mean "i cant write procs that use it", since i have a concept that matches with it
02:19:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3Fd9
02:19:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> But that's mostly an implementation detail no one needs to see
02:25:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> evoalg is presently going "Why did i ask anything"
02:27:04FromDiscord<ajusa> In reply to @Elegantbeef "I've used tcc with": I needed some additional tcc flags for math looks like (there's a github issue in the nim repository about it opened in the last month)
02:27:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Ah
02:27:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I know i had to disable simd for pixie with TCC
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02:46:04FromDiscord<evoalg> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Actually yea seems fine": Thank you Elegantbeef - I'm still trying to wrap my head around closures, and when I've studied them a lot more I'll be able to as some sensible questions
02:49:59FromDiscord<deech> How do I re-export a module I imported?
02:50:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `export moduleName`
02:53:10FromDiscord<deech> thanks! Just looked that up in the manual. Can you specify the symbols to re-export? eg. `from A export a,b,c`?
02:54:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> no you just `export a, b, c`
02:54:52FromDiscord<deech> Ah nice, and I guess if I import the module qualified I can do `export module.a, module.b, module.c`?
02:55:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Possibly
02:55:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> i do not know
02:55:04FromDiscord<impbox [ftsf]> or just export a
02:55:21FromDiscord<impbox [ftsf]> since you imported it it's not in your current module
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08:59:40NimEventerNew post on r/nim by SamLovesNotion: How to embed Nim expression inside a string? Like template strings in JS., see https://reddit.com/r/nim/comments/qvv4cs/how_to_embed_nim_expression_inside_a_string_like/
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13:12:41FromDiscord<ynfle (ynfle)> How can I use `HashSet` for NimNodes
13:14:10FromDiscord<licenziato> hi
13:29:51FromDiscord<hmmm> yea boi I just became a grown up nimmer, I just defined a proc that doesn't end with return but has a big grownup result stuffed in there somewhere
13:30:10FromDiscord<hmmm> I think disruptek would be proud
13:30:18FromDiscord<hmmm> where is disruptek btw
13:30:38FromDiscord<Marisol> Hey everyone, I'm just starting to learn nim, looking for tips/directions to get started... I've read and tried some of the examples in docs, but other than that it's very hard to find tutorials. I'm thinking to make a simple REST JSON API (with CRUD ops) with sqlite database... Is there maybe a repo or example or something that I can study and tinker?
13:35:08PMunchynfle_(ynfle), by implementing a `hash` proc for them I believe
13:35:23PMunch@hmmm, haha nice :P
13:35:36PMunchAnd I think disruptek is off in some other channel
13:37:39PMunch@Marisol, don't know of anything specific for that. You can use https://github.com/dom96/jester for the REST part, the built in `json` module for the JSON part, and the built in `db_sqlite` module for the database.
13:42:17FromDiscord<Marisol> In reply to @PMunch "<@800992449316126741>, don't know of": Thanks! I'll try it
14:02:54FromDiscord<enthus1ast> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/6A0
14:19:02FromDiscord<dom96> In reply to @Marisol "Hey everyone, I'm just": Thanks PMunch for suggesting my library 🙂↵In addition I would also suggest using the `norm` package instead of db_sqlite (unless you're comfortable writing all your SQL from scratch), norm will take care of a lot of boilerplate
14:19:26PMunchOoh, that's a good suggestion
14:19:38FromDiscord<dom96> Please feel free to ask if you run into any issues. For what we lack in tutorials we can hopefully make up in real-time help 🙂
14:19:43PMunchAnd of course, Jester is still my go to choice when I just need a quick and dirty REST API
14:22:48FromDiscord<dom96> ❤️
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14:33:46FromDiscord<hmmm> In reply to @PMunch "<@800992449316126741>, don't know of": I'm a big fan of jsony library, I think any library that ends in y is bound to be superior to any competition 🧐
14:41:25FromDiscord<dom96> brb, forking Nim to Nimmy
14:43:21FromDiscord<hmmm> I wouldnt overstep my buounds like that, araqy should be in charge of the fork
14:57:18FromDiscord<Mr Axilus> On the topic of Nim favouring structured programming (result over return), it's common to verify arguments with something like `if arg == nil: return nil`, or a more complicated check. Is that stylictically to be avoided? If so, what's the recommended alternative?
14:57:45FromDiscord<Zoom> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3FfT
14:58:21FromDiscord<Zoom> In my book, expressions \> statements
14:58:22FromDiscord<Mr Axilus> Lol, it did its best
14:59:14FromDiscord<GalacticColourisation> hey, does nim by default compile down to C and then use a C compiler to compile to machine code?
14:59:26FromDiscord<dom96> yep
15:00:00FromDiscord<dom96> In reply to @mraxilus "On the topic of": that's fine, usually `result` is handy when you're building up a result, for example you're returning a string or seq and you want to add items to it
15:01:18FromDiscord<enthus1ast> [Zoom](https://matrix.to/#/@Zoom:matrix.org)\: yeah, i also avoid auto, but for returning procs and longer stuff i occasionally use it.
15:02:01FromDiscord<Zoom> Overloading `default` when? \:P Without it `results` aren't as attractive.↵(@dom96)
15:02:58FromDiscord<Mr Axilus> In reply to @dom96 "that's fine, usually `result`": I thought so, but it doesn't follow the "rule" of one entry and exit point; hence why I asked.
15:03:42FromDiscord<dom96> In reply to @Zoom "Overloading `default` when? \:P": Sounds to me like a fairly nicely scoped feature, could be fun way to get into compiler coding for someone... although then again I know there are those who are very against any new features being added to Nim 🙂
15:07:48FromDiscord<Zoom> If I recall correctly, you can define default for a type, but it doesn't get invoked by default or something silly like that. Need to check.↵(@dom96)
15:12:34FromDiscord<Zoom> https://github.com/nim-lang/RFCs/issues/290↵(@dom96)
15:12:43FromDiscord<Marisol> In reply to @dom96 "Thanks PMunch for suggesting": Cool, and surprisingly it looks stable, thanks!
15:13:18FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @dom96 "Sounds to me like": It’s an RFC right now
15:13:34FromDiscord<Zoom> And https://github.com/nim-lang/RFCs/issues/252
15:14:31PMunch@GalacticColourisation, yup
15:14:36FromDiscord<dom96> A little off-topic but I have some possibly controversial opinions about the RFC repo. It makes writing proposals far too easy and brings no expectation for implementation. IMO we should get rid of all the issues and set up a formal RFC process.
15:14:45FromDiscord<GalacticColourisation> thank you!
15:15:13PMunchWell, by default is maybe a stretch
15:15:16FromDiscord<dom96> So we've got a couple RFCs about the same thing, where are the implementations? are they all waiting on their RFCs to be accepted?
15:15:25PMunchWhen you do `nim c <file>` that's what it does
15:15:35FromDiscord<haxscramper> well, maybe we first need to get a roadmap for the language
15:16:01FromDiscord<haxscramper> Without that any sort of RFC process is largely meaningless
15:16:06PMunchIf you do `nim cpp <file>` it does the same thing, but with C++ compiler, and `nim js <file>` converts your file to JavaScript to embed on a website (or, with an extra flag, run in Node)
15:16:11FromDiscord<haxscramper> Ok, I wrote 252 more than a year ago, so what?
15:16:27FromDiscord<haxscramper> it got accepted, what now?
15:16:29FromDiscord<dom96> implement it
15:16:32FromDiscord<GalacticColourisation> ah, i see, is there not an option for direct compilation to machine code?
15:16:51FromDiscord<haxscramper> when I did 245 I put multiple spec revisions and tried to somehow coordinate my efforts everyone interested, haven't seen it anywhere
15:17:03FromDiscord<dom96> implementation is far more important than RFCs anyway
15:17:04PMunch@GalacticColourisation, nope, why would we do something that your C compiler is already great at?
15:17:14FromDiscord<GalacticColourisation> true
15:17:39FromDiscord<haxscramper> this does not work in general case, being able to write good RFC does not equate to being a compiler developer↵(@dom96)
15:17:46FromDiscord<dom96> @GalacticColourisation if you'd like to reimplement years of GCC/clang lessons then go right ahead 🙂
15:18:12FromDiscord<dom96> In reply to @haxscramper "this does not work": so what? You expect Araq to implement all the RFCs?
15:18:19FromDiscord<dom96> That obviously cannot work
15:18:22FromDiscord<GalacticColourisation> oh, the PR will be accepted? i wrote something similar for my own language a while ago
15:18:28FromDiscord<dom96> You can learn to be a compiler developer
15:18:46FromDiscord<haxscramper> And just to remind you, 252 was accepted in form of `field: type = defaultValue`, not for `default()` hook
15:18:51FromDiscord<haxscramper> `default()/=init`
15:18:55FromDiscord<haxscramper> so those RFCs are different
15:19:20FromDiscord<haxscramper> [Edit](https://discord.com/channels/371759389889003530/371759389889003532/910549047683719238): when I did 245 I put multiple spec revisions and tried to somehow coordinate my efforts everyone interested, haven't seen it done anywhere else for any RFC
15:19:24FromDiscord<dom96> In reply to @GalacticColourisation "oh, the PR will": Doesn't need to be mainlined into Nim, you can easily build a compiler outside the main repo and move faster
15:19:26PMunch@GalacticColourisation, I'd be impressed if you managed to do it. But it probably wouldn't be merged as that would mean the core devs would have to maintain it
15:19:38FromDiscord<GalacticColourisation> ah, okay
15:19:38PMunchAnd there isn't really much point to having the feature
15:19:46FromDiscord<GalacticColourisation> yeah i see
15:19:56FromDiscord<haxscramper> https://github.com/arnetheduck/nlvm↵(@GalacticColourisation)
15:20:12FromDiscord<GalacticColourisation> oh, nevermind, someone did it already
15:20:22FromDiscord<Zoom> Not many like to do hard work if the chance of it being accepted is very low. Prior discussion should lead to correct implementations.↵(@dom96)
15:20:43FromDiscord<dom96> of course, but even accepted RFCs apparently don't get implementations
15:21:04FromDiscord<haxscramper> I expect core devs to at least have a roadmap where those efforts are coordinated
15:21:14FromDiscord<dom96> also rejecting an implementation is much harder than an RFC 😉
15:21:45FromDiscord<haxscramper> And right now barrier to entry to the compiler development is pretty high
15:21:56FromDiscord<haxscramper> Yeah,
15:22:00FromDiscord<haxscramper> nimble PTSD
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15:22:35arkanoidhello! Which nim gui library/binding would you consider production ready for a windows desktop app?
15:22:50FromDiscord<haxscramper> I mean people can work on something provided there is at least an explanation on how to implement things, and you don't feel like you just have to pick a task at random
15:22:59FromDiscord<dom96> All we can do is push Araq to publish a roadmap more regularly
15:23:09FromDiscord<dom96> complaining here is preaching to the choir 🙂
15:23:25FromDiscord<haxscramper> well, complaining to araq is basically meaningless as well
15:23:40FromDiscord<haxscramper> like, if we need to push community leader to just do something wrt. to managing community
15:23:54FromDiscord<haxscramper> what is the point if he does not want to do this?
15:24:02FromDiscord<Zoom> That's kinda bad.↵(@dom96)
15:24:12FromDiscord<haxscramper> does not understand utility of doing so\
15:24:24FromDiscord<dom96> In reply to @haxscramper "like, if we need": huh, what do you mean?
15:24:49FromDiscord<dom96> In reply to @Zoom "That's kinda bad. (<@132595483838251008>)": yeah, but it's a fact of life and pretty universal everywhere
15:25:05FromDiscord<dom96> but especially in open source
15:25:21FromDiscord<dom96> we should definitely do more to avoid it though
15:25:26FromDiscord<haxscramper> In reply to @dom96 "huh, what do you": I mean if we have to constantly remind core development team to talk about their plans, goals, in a way that community can rely on for their expectations,
15:25:35FromDiscord<haxscramper> remind again and again
15:25:56FromDiscord<haxscramper> why bother even, not like we can push them to a state when they would be doing so willingly
15:26:27FromDiscord<dom96> I mean. You sound like you've given up already, so I feel like there isn't much I can say to convince you that reminding it is worth it
15:26:45FromDiscord<haxscramper> each time someone in chat asks for the roadmap, and all I can do is just say "well, there is no such thing, but last time I've heard we've been working on the XXX and YYY"
15:27:16FromDiscord<haxscramper> In reply to @dom96 "I mean. You sound": well, it moves us a little closer to having a real roadmap, yes
15:27:24FromDiscord<haxscramper> maybe it will be written at some point
15:27:27FromDiscord<haxscramper> then never updated
15:27:37FromDiscord<haxscramper> or completely forgotted like these "community meetings"
15:28:00FromDiscord<haxscramper> (edit) "forgotted" => "forgotten"
15:28:26nrds<Prestige99> What about something living (like I think godot uses github milestones, a kanban board, or whatever) that people can check out, at will
15:28:44FromDiscord<treeform> Can orc be used with async code yet?
15:29:15FromDiscord<dom96> yep, it can be and has been that way for a while afaik
15:29:26FromDiscord<treeform> oh cool
15:29:47FromDiscord<haxscramper> In reply to @nrds "<Prestige> What about something": it is not a question of tooling, it is a question of someone willing to maintain this
15:29:57FromDiscord<Zoom> Just an .md doc with points and links to RFCs/issues in the order of their priority/desirability which Araq could shuffle and tick would be nice.
15:29:59FromDiscord<dom96> In reply to @haxscramper "it is not a": idneed
15:30:01FromDiscord<dom96> (edit) "idneed" => "indeed"
15:30:05FromDiscord<haxscramper> and this can't be done by some random contributors
15:30:11nrds<Prestige99> I mean it'd be integrated into the workflow of the maintainers
15:30:15FromDiscord<dom96> It could be 🙂
15:30:17FromDiscord<haxscramper> because random contributors can't define a central roadmap
15:30:41FromDiscord<haxscramper> In reply to @dom96 "It could be 🙂": well, let me throw together a project real quick, and see what araq thinks of my priorities
15:30:55FromDiscord<dom96> No, you ask Araq what his priorities are and then you put them in a doc
15:31:00FromDiscord<dom96> Ask him to verify and you're done
15:31:40FromDiscord<haxscramper> are you serious? we need to attach some special person to ask questions and the copy-paste responses
15:32:28FromDiscord<haxscramper> (edit) "the" => "then"
15:32:57FromDiscord<haxscramper> and then as the person who answered the question to verify if their response was understtood/copied correctly?
15:35:24FromDiscord<Zoom> 🤷 My boss phones me and drops a bunch of stuff to work on me verbally, even though all following communication goes through e-mail. I know he reads from his own damn paper notes, and we're playing in a remote typist... 🤦‍♂️↵(@haxscramper)
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15:37:16FromDiscord<haxscramper> Yeah, except in this case I would need to call the boss, say something like "well, what are our plans", write down the explanation and then everyone else should use it as a reference roadmap
15:38:09arkanoidI guess it's "no one" then
15:42:26FromDiscord<Zoom> My post on the forums on the plans for work on documentation attracted so many comments speaking how the docs are fine, even though my point wasn't to criticize per se. In any state of the docs, the work is never done and there's no visible roadmap for it. Instead i got "keep your cs101 out of my docs".
15:44:15FromDiscord<haxscramper> haven't seen this one - which forum post was it exactly?
15:45:13FromDiscord<haxscramper> alright, found it - https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/8091
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16:00:27FromDiscord<Zoom> sent a long message, see https://paste.rs/Fsv
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16:04:29FromDiscord<haxscramper> Documentation improvement is an iterative process, and the only thing we can do is to streamline the process of detecting and addressing documentation issues. At this point I already remember most of the stuff I use, and so most of the people participated in the discussion on the forum (like araq/vindaar/stefan etc.)
16:05:14FromDiscord<haxscramper> So we can fix the docs but can't really see what is wrong, and new people can't fix but at least can see
16:05:48FromDiscord<haxscramper> `nim doc` result arrangement is not ideal as well, but that is a technical issue mostly
16:07:47FromDiscord<haxscramper> and in general, all talks I've seen about the documentation missed a very important part - attempt to formulate the definition of the problem, and instead devolved into "I like this, I like this, don't bring your CS here, no I find python docs unreadable, yes, rust docs are good etc. etc."
16:11:09FromDiscord<dom96> In reply to @haxscramper "are you serious? we": It's just an example of how some "random contributor" could make this happen
16:12:26FromDiscord<dom96> I don't think it should be expected, but I think in general there isn't anything that a "random contributor" can't do.
16:13:27FromDiscord<haxscramper> well, actually I think we have an example of sorts
16:13:40FromDiscord<haxscramper> https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/8627
16:14:24FromDiscord<haxscramper> From what I've seen, the current roadmap can be aptly summarized as "IC"
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16:15:31FromDiscord<haxscramper> so, we have a "random contributor" who also wants to know about nimble, and they get a reply "about Nimble, development has been outsourced, wasn't ready for 1.6.0 and I don't know the plan either"
16:16:16FromDiscord<dom96> is that a quote? I can't find it
16:16:42FromDiscord<haxscramper> ctrlf "about Nimble, development has been outsourced, wasn't ready for 1.6.0 and I don't know the plan either" in this chat
16:16:53FromDiscord<haxscramper> https://discord.com/channels/371759389889003530/371759389889003532/905422111747743805
16:17:13FromDiscord<haxscramper> after that I closed my RFC btw
16:17:40FromDiscord<haxscramper> because I didn't want to deal with this
16:17:51FromDiscord<dom96> oh, in this chat
16:18:37FromDiscord<haxscramper> you would be really hard pressed to find "random contributor" who had at least the same level of meticulousness when digging up the responses, composing the RFC
16:19:07FromDiscord<haxscramper> so we had a "random contributor" try this game, it was fun while it lasted, in the end it resulted in "I don't care"
16:21:33FromDiscord<haxscramper> And just to remind you, araq is not exactly willing to go into great lengths talking about plans and subtasks, especially when it comes to random bystanders, so someone would have to sit through this, ask all the questions understand the responses, compose them into something that regular people can rely on. We're already looking at insanely high prerequisites that could be met by just a handful of people here
16:22:23FromDiscord<dom96> _sighs_
16:23:07FromDiscord<haxscramper> I understand that everyone is sick of this circular discussion
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16:23:28FromDiscord<haxscramper> well, I probably need to just stop doing this, I'm certainly not making things better
16:24:12FromDiscord<haxscramper> (edit) "well, I probably" => "Probably "
16:25:00FromDiscord<dom96> Ugh, I'm not even sure it's worth discussing this further. But: asking Araq in chat or on the forum randomly about his plans is different to literally pinging him and saying "Let's sit down and come up with a roadmap that we can publish"
16:25:04FromDiscord<dom96> This stuff seriously isn't hard
16:25:13FromDiscord<dom96> Yes, it can be annoying
16:25:19FromDiscord<dom96> and yes it would be great if we didn't have to do it
16:25:34FromDiscord<dom96> but that's what we've got to work with, so let's make the best of it
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16:29:53weirdweirdhuhwhy is overloadableEnums experimental?
16:31:35nrds<Prestige99> Is anyone doing that yet @dom96? Would be great to see a roadmap
16:32:18FromDiscord<dom96> not as far as I'm aware
16:32:35FromDiscord<dom96> I'm certainly not, I've got more important things to bug Araq about 😛
16:32:36nrds<Prestige99> just not a priority for the nim team I guess?
16:33:41weirdweirdhuhi guess it should be experimental since it's new, but no bugs will be found because no one will turn it on
16:33:49nrds<Prestige99> Without a roadmap, how are the devs deciding what to work on, just anything they feel like? Lol
16:34:14weirdweirdhuhdoes it make sense for some {.experimental.} features to be enabled by default
16:34:48FromDiscord<dom96> weirdweirdhuh: good point, indeed this is a trade off: we can kill it but we have less people actually finding problems with it
16:35:08FromDiscord<dom96> on the other hand, is it really that difficult to enable it?
16:35:22FromDiscord<dom96> it's not significantly more difficult after you find out about it and realise you need it 🙂
16:37:32nrds<Prestige99> or @dom96 if you're not so much involved in the process anymore, who could we ask about it? I think it would be beneficial to nim's community to see this happening by leadership
16:37:38weirdweirdhuhit looks like a convenience feature so i don't know if anyone will think they need it
16:37:55FromDiscord<dom96> Prestige: did you miss what I wrote above? Get in touch with Araq
16:38:13FromDiscord<haxscramper> no, I mean we paid community manager for example
16:38:17FromDiscord<haxscramper> or some other core develoeprs
16:38:23nrds<Prestige99> To be his notary?
16:38:32weirdweirdhuhit's not even in the blog post for 1.6
16:38:42arkanoidwhere can I read about "orc vs rust borrow checker"?
16:38:44nrds<Prestige99> I just want to see a roadmap, I don't want to be involved in the development of the language itself
16:39:09FromDiscord<dom96> weirdweirdhuh: feel free to make a PR to add it to the 1.6 release notes, or better yet: make a forum thread to raise awareness 🙂
16:40:56FromDiscord<dom96> @haxscramper fwiw I am not sure that we have a community manager per say anymore, they are working on different things
16:41:39FromDiscord<dom96> but you know what might be an idea? Maybe ping them too? 😛
16:41:44FromDiscord<haxscramper> well, I mean if we don't even know what each team member is doing, that is certainly not going anywhere
16:42:45FromDiscord<haxscramper> In reply to @dom96 "but you know what": yes dom, I know I can ping people, but what I also know is that we won't get anywhere if basic requests like having a concrete set of goals, requires pinging every single person involved
16:43:11FromDiscord<dom96> we got to 1.0 just fine
16:43:11weirdweirdhuhwhat would be a roadmap? a feature list for each version?
16:43:13FromDiscord<haxscramper> so I need to ping miran to ask them if they are willing to be a araq's notary?
16:43:58FromDiscord<haxscramper> In reply to @dom96 "we got to 1.0": yes, we also got to the 0.20 "just fine" and to 1.2.0 "just fine' and to 1.4.0 "just fine" and to 1.6.0 "just fine"
16:44:14FromDiscord<haxscramper> except not a single person understands what "just fine" really means
16:44:25FromDiscord<haxscramper> so yes, features were added and they work
16:44:39weirdweirdhuhi thought there were labels like 1.6, 2.0 etc for issues on github
16:44:48FromDiscord<haxscramper> this is the definition of "just fine"? Well, not a bad one, but it is hard to manage expectations with something like these
16:45:11FromDiscord<dom96> it's certainly not "we didn't get anywhere"
16:45:25FromDiscord<haxscramper> I never said that
16:45:31FromDiscord<dom96> ugh
16:45:36FromDiscord<dom96> you said we won't get anywhere
16:45:57FromDiscord<dom96> I meant "well, we got to where we are just fine"
16:46:01FromDiscord<haxscramper> we were talking about roadmap specifically
16:46:14FromDiscord<dom96> no, you were talking about pinging people
16:46:34FromDiscord<haxscramper> if we need to have a person tasked with pinging everyone in order to compose the understanding of where the project is heading
16:47:45FromDiscord<dom96> there really is no point in discussing the pedantic details of the merits of pinging people or not
16:48:03FromDiscord<haxscramper> no, it is a fundamental issue in this discussion
16:48:14FromDiscord<haxscramper> people doing things because they understand this is important
16:48:15FromDiscord<dom96> Fine. So I have no solution for you
16:48:17FromDiscord<haxscramper> vs someome forcing them to
17:03:45FromDiscord<hmmm> we need a roadmap for tutorials too 🧐
17:04:19FromDiscord<hmmm> 1) Programming 101 2) GUI in nim 3) Godot with nim 4) Webstuff with nim
17:04:32FromDiscord<hmmm> people will flock to the cause and we will be rich 🧐
17:05:54FromDiscord<haxscramper> we have a gui in nim at least https://github.com/StefanSalewski/GtkProgrammingBook/blob/master/gtkprogramming.adoc
17:06:25FromDiscord<haxscramper> and programming 101 http://ssalewski.de/nimprogramming.html
17:07:22FromDiscord<arnetheduck> In reply to @Marisol "Hey everyone, I'm just": A slightly more advanced example would be the server we're using: https://github.com/status-im/nimbus-eth2/blob/unstable/beacon_chain/rpc/rest_beacon_api.nim and its corresponding client: https://github.com/status-im/nimbus-eth2/blob/unstable/beacon_chain/spec/eth2_apis/rest_beacon_calls.nim - this is part of a larger application that also uses sqlite (https://github.com/status-im/nim-e
17:15:02FromDiscord<vindaar> this is an important point. In terms of Nim too many things are "just obvious" to me nowadays. It's hard to see the flaws in projects one is very involved in, which is why I appreciate input from outsiders↵(@haxscramper)
17:17:55FromDiscord<hmmm> Programming 101 is perfect, I would plaster that stuff all over the official site. The GUI one is a bit bookish detailing the library functions, it should be something like, let's build this cool app step by step using nim and library xyz in 30 fokkin minutes, with pictures, github repo and fancy narrative skills. I think wnim is polished enough to get a great result
17:20:19FromDiscord<hmmm> Godot-nim needs a tutorial just to be able to install the damn thing but I think a series on small game (not too basic) would be killer since godot is the stuff of the dreams
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17:41:22weirdweirdhuhif closure iterators can be implemented as a library, could AST iterators be implemented as a library as well?
17:45:31FromDiscord<brainproxy> when I run `nimble install` in my project, I end up with multiple versions of `foo` dep in `~/.nimble/pkgs`, e.g. `foo-1.2.3` and `foo-#bar`↵↵is there a way when invoking a nimble task and/or the nim compiler to tell it to "use `foo-#bar`, don't use `foo-123` ?
17:45:54FromDiscord<brainproxy> (edit) "`foo-123`" => "`foo-1.2.3`"
17:46:26FromDiscord<brainproxy> locally and in CI I can simply `rm -rf ~/.nimble/pkgs/foo-1.2.3` but that's kind of a pain
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17:57:21FromDiscord<haxscramper> In reply to @weirdweirdhuh "if closure iterators can": what is an AST iterator? regular inline iterator?
17:57:37weirdweirdhuh@haxscramper yes sorry
17:58:09FromDiscord<haxscramper> inline iterator can theoretically be be implemented as a library, but this would require very nontrivial `typed` macro
17:58:25FromDiscord<haxscramper> Well, CPS etc. stuff,
17:58:51FromDiscord<haxscramper> https://github.com/nim-works/cps/tree/master/docs
17:59:30FromDiscord<haxscramper> In reply to @brainproxy "when I run `nimble": you can pass `--path` to the nim compiler explicitly or by setting `nim.cfg` for your project
18:00:02FromDiscord<haxscramper> but `nim c` and `nimble install` currently can't communicate dependency information between each other
18:02:55FromDiscord<haxscramper> regular inline iterator compies to a state machine basically
18:03:14FromDiscord<haxscramper> if you look at codegen it is a `while(1); goto` kind of thing most of the time
18:03:46FromDiscord<haxscramper> Because you have `continue/break/labeled-break/finally/yield`, all of these might affect control flow in unstructured way
18:04:48weirdweirdhuhmakes sense thank you
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18:37:49FromDiscord<dom96> In reply to @brainproxy "when I run `nimble": Nim compiler will always pick #head
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18:39:39FromDiscord<brainproxy> In reply to @dom96 "Nim compiler will always": in this case it's picking `foo-1.2.3` (which is a dep of one of my deps), but in my project's `.nimble` I depend on `https://github.com/blah/foo.git#bar`, which is the one I want the compiler to use
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18:52:14FromDiscord<brainproxy> one solution, based on what I inferred from @haxscramper, is that if in my nimble task I pass `--path:/home/user/.nimble/pkgs/foo-#bar` to the compiler, then it takes higher precedence in the search path than `foo-1.2.3`
18:52:22FromDiscord<brainproxy> not sure if that's the best solution, but works for now
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19:52:37FromDiscord<brainproxy> @dom96 just curious, when using choosenim on macOS, why isn't there a prebuilt compiler, etc. like there is when using choosnim on Linux?
19:53:20FromDiscord<brainproxy> (edit) "choosnim" => "choosenim"
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19:59:16FromDiscord<dom96> we just don't have CI set up to build macOS nightlies
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20:25:38FromDiscord<ynfle (ynfle)> Why are object fields in a `TypeDef` `Ident` not `Sym`
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20:34:06PMunchBecause you're looking at `untyped` data
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21:24:54FromDiscord<sOkam!> Does this mean nim can use "header" files?↵Is there a preffered filetype for them, if that's the case? https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/910641670314401822/unknown.png
21:27:35FromDiscord<Recruit_main707> nope, forward declarations must happen within the same file as the definition afaik, sadly
21:28:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You're right
21:28:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Forward declarations in nim are about having cyclical procedure calls in a file
21:29:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I originally didnt like it, but i've grown to like that i know code i'm calling is declared or forward declared above the code i'm currently at
21:30:23FromDiscord<Recruit_main707> im still originally disliking it xD
21:33:53FromDiscord<sOkam!> i mean, if you include a file, is that not immediately added to the top of the current one? 🤔↵thought that was the context of the `include` keyword
21:34:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Eh you never really want to use include
21:34:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> include is more for splitting a file across multiple files
21:34:38FromDiscord<Recruit_main707> now that you mention it i guess it would work xd, but why tho
21:34:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You can technically use it for forward declarations, but Nim is not C there is no benefit to that
21:35:53FromDiscord<z3nchada> hello. I am looking for a contact for a nim-lang dev for a potential bug disclosure. Would anyone happen to have a contact?
21:36:23FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> A security bug or a normal bug?
21:37:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> If security related https://github.com/nim-lang/security/security/policy#reporting-a-vulnerability
21:37:14FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @Recruit_main707 "now that you mention": dunno if there's any benefit, just trying to understand the boundaries of the language 🤷‍♂️↵i'm guessing it could serve for sorting functions in a non-linear way, so you avoid making the mistake of calling something that hasn't been declared yet.↵also guessing it could potentially become useful if the app is very interconnected (as in oop)
21:37:21FromDiscord<z3nchada> In reply to @Elegantbeef "A security bug or": potential security. Exploitability is unknown potentially unlikely. It is a DOS vector and could be used maliciously depending on the project.
21:37:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> So then yea follow the link
21:37:46FromDiscord<z3nchada> In reply to @Elegantbeef "If security related https://github.com/nim-lang/sec": thanks. Sorry I didn't see this earlier.
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21:37:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's fine
21:38:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I dont know if i follow how it benefits, if something isnt declared yet it errors
21:39:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You can forward declare all your procedures in the file you're working on, if you want that behaviour
21:39:20FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Though you rarely need forward declarations, only in the rare case you have a cyclical proc call
21:39:27FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @Elegantbeef "I dont know if": unless it has been declared in a header-like file
21:40:08FromDiscord<sOkam!> that's what i'm understanding at least atm, might be wrong ofc
21:40:14FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It'd still lack a definition and error
21:40:22FromDiscord<sOkam!> why?
21:40:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> And nim's `include` only works on a single file, and not globally
21:40:52FromDiscord<ynfle (ynfle)> Is the bridge to gitter working?
21:41:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3Fil
21:41:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's matrix so hopefully
21:42:06FromDiscord<sOkam!> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3Fin
21:42:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Exactly my point, if you only have the forward declaration it'll error
21:42:57FromDiscord<sOkam!> so that tutorial is wrong then? 🤔↵not reading from the manual yet, but got the link from the official website
21:43:10FromDiscord<sOkam!> if i understood, that last image will error?
21:43:27FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3Fio
21:43:33FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> What you just linked will work
21:44:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The thing is Nim doesnt make a single file like C so a forward declaration is only in a module's scope
21:44:30FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> So the point of making an "header" is pointless
21:45:23FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @Elegantbeef "So the point of": sorting things in non-linear way is the point I was initially thinking about
21:45:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I dont follow
21:46:42FromDiscord<sOkam!> if you define A, then B, then C... and they depend on the previous one to work, then you are forced to sort them in that order inside your file
21:46:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes
21:47:10FromDiscord<sOkam!> with a "header"-like file I was mentioning, you could sort them C, B, A and they would work
21:47:11FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Or you can forward declare all of them and then dont have a order issue
21:47:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Sure, but you dont need a header for that, you just forward declare them
21:48:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3Fit
21:48:32FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Sure, but you dont": its for organization. starting to read a file and having to scroll through tens of lines of declarations to reach the first block of not-boilerplate content is kinda annoying in terms of tidiness
21:48:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Sure but you dont often need forward declarations
21:48:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I rarely use them
21:49:13FromDiscord<sOkam!> ofc in terms of functionality its the same, but for organization in a non-linear way it could work. at least that thought is what started the Q
21:49:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> But i'd be lying if i said i didnt find it nicer to read since code you depend upon is written above where you're at unless it's forward declared
21:50:14FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There is the experimental code reordering though that'll probably soon be deprecated soon and might not always work
21:50:27FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual_experimental.html#code-reordering if you want to read about that
21:50:35FromDiscord<sOkam!> it takes mental energy to read that boilerplate, even if skimming. i noticed so far, in my personal case, that if I reduce that annoyance then I can code for much much longer
21:51:12FromDiscord<sOkam!> hence why i got interested in nim, since there is no damn curly bracers everywhere, and everyting can be so cleanly organized
21:52:16FromDiscord<sOkam!> (edit) "everyting" => "everything"
21:54:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I'm curious, what code are you talking about?
21:54:43FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @Elegantbeef "I'm curious, what code": wdym?
21:55:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> > ↵> takes mental energy to read that boilerplate, even if skimming. i noticed so far↵>
21:55:32FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @Elegantbeef "> > takes": Everything verbose c# style is the perfect example
21:55:42FromDiscord<sOkam!> Reading that style exhausts me real fast
21:55:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Ok so this is a hypothetical
21:56:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I thought you were reading a nim module with a lot of forward declares
21:57:08FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @Elegantbeef "I thought you were": ah nope. im going through the introductory tutorials, and trying to make a mental model of whats possible in nim
21:58:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Ah, then yea forward declare is a relatively uncommon tool, unless you need it. So i wouldnt be overly concerned about it
21:59:06FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> it does require linearity so i guess there is the issue anyway
21:59:08FromDiscord<K.io.S> hey guys I was reading this article:↵https://users.rust-lang.org/t/nim-multithreading-faster-than-rust/36239↵They claim that since Nim version 0.19.4, there are "random thread contention problems" in Nim. Can anybody confirm that threading is randomly broken? I haven't used it, but I haven't heard that to be the case.
21:59:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> But i'll shush since i'm just repeating myself
22:00:01FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Ah, then yea forward": i found myself naturally sorting in a nonlinear way. thankfully the language that im using supports it, otherwise I would have had a lot of trouble resorting things in my mental model 🤷‍♂️
22:01:56FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I dont know if there are any thread problems with Nim, i've used them a bit in a variety of projects and no issues
22:03:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://streamable.com/5antvr is 1024x1024 multi threaded particles, never had random issues with it, so guess might depend on what they're doing?
22:05:43FromDiscord<K.io.S> In reply to @Elegantbeef "https://streamable.com/5antvr is 1024x1024 multi": My thoughts were that they might be using things that became obsolete after the GC changes. Who knows.
22:06:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean 0.19 and 1.0 are still 2+ years old now
22:06:23FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> are 2+ years old now\
22:06:41FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> So between new GCs and just general progression, might not be an issue anymore
22:42:01FromDiscord<evoalg> I read here sometimes of people meantioning nim.cfg ... what is nim.cfg used for?
22:43:30FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> there are multiple ways to pass flags to the compiler on a project basis, `nim.cfg` is one way of doing such, say you have a program which requires threads and you want that on you make a config file with `--threads:on` then you never have to pass that option
22:44:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `nim.cfg` is more meant for locally, you can do `yourFile.nims` or `config.nims` aswell
22:44:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> the `nims` are running nimscript which means you have a subset of Nim at your disposal
22:44:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://nim-lang.org/docs/nimc.html#compiler-usage-configuration-files
22:45:46FromDiscord<evoalg> Thank you for your answer that explains everything! (and that I can understand)
22:46:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Eh they dont explain everything, everything is a lot
22:46:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> To answer that email here, i dont have anything setup for that
22:47:06FromDiscord<evoalg> no worries I'd though I'd ask 😉
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23:00:28FromDiscord<evoalg> "flatty" was mentioned some time ago ... "Flatty - serializer and tools for flat binary blobs" .. what does this module do? What is a binary blob and why would I want to flatten one? Or should I just not worry about it since it's probably to do with some C stuff that I'm not interesting in right now?
23:00:50FromDiscord<evoalg> The module description didn't really tell me
23:00:51FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> If you want to convert an object to a binary format and store it or share it
23:02:17FromDiscord<evoalg> ahh instead of using some json to store it or share it, ok
23:09:56FromDiscord<IsaacPaul> I had to look up what it means to be flat lol↵> Access to serialized data without parsing/unpacking
23:11:45FromDiscord<IsaacPaul> I suppose you get through-put at the cost of increased bandwidth compared to protocol buffers
23:13:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well you can always apply compression to reduce the bandwidth a bit
23:14:09FromDiscord<IsaacPaul> That's true.. I wonder if that makes up for the difference 🤔 it would be interesting to compare
23:14:58FromDiscord<treeform> In reply to @evoalg "ahh instead of using": Flatty is like 10x faster then jsony. I made flatty for binary files and network packets.
23:15:43FromDiscord<treeform> I recommend using supersnappy to compress the whole thing after.
23:17:02FromDiscord<treeform> I use flatty when I controll both ends. I use JSON when I don't.
23:19:30FromDiscord<evoalg> makes sense thank you!
23:20:19FromDiscord<IsaacPaul> I've written a serializer before (in c#).. it was a pretty fun project. (https://github.com/izackp/AutoBuffer)
23:21:40FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I've written multiple serializers for Nim, it's quite fun
23:21:56FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> This reminds me i should replace my RPC's backing with disruptek's frosty
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23:47:22FromDiscord<hmmm> In reply to @treeform "Flatty is like 10x": hey tformy last time I tried flatty I remember it didn't eat seq[seq[float]] or something, while jsony gobbled it just fine. Was I drunk or it's true and there is some reason for it?
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