<< 18-01-2022 >>
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00:37:35NimEventerNew post on r/nim by OptimizedGarbage: Experience with Dr. Nim or other correctness-assurance techniques?, see https://reddit.com/r/nim/comments/s6js59/experience_with_dr_nim_or_other/
00:40:08FromDiscord<Rika> if you're writing a game you dont need formal proving id say......
00:40:36FromDiscord<Rika> though it certainly isnt a "do not"
00:40:46FromDiscord<Rika> just kinda a big time consumer
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00:57:40FromDiscord<Patitotective> In reply to @auxym "The wrapped library itself": 👍
01:11:52FromDiscord<Patitotective> any clue?
01:11:52FromDiscord<Patitotective> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3MCN
01:12:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There is no `wxnim` module
01:12:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> you want `import wxnim/wx`
01:14:09FromDiscord<Patitotective> Oh, thanks 🙃
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01:24:19FromDiscord<congusbongus> I think if you use VSCode with nim extension it can autocomplete imports
01:25:53FromDiscord<Rika> nope
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02:14:38FromDiscord<Patitotective> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3MCW
02:15:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://github.com/beef331/slicerator/blob/master/src/slicerator.nim#L37-L40
02:16:27FromDiscord<Patitotective> 👍
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04:21:56FromDiscord<huantian> oh that's probably better than .reversed huh↵unless one day reversed is lazy
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04:22:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It'll never be since it returns a sequence
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05:23:51FromDiscord<evoalg> slicerator ftw!
05:25:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> 100% of my users say the same, though you're 100% of my users 😛
05:38:24FromDiscord<Rika> I’d probably use it IF I WERE PROGRAMMING
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06:23:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Shame would be a lot cooler if you were
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06:50:57FromDiscord<Rika> Aw shucks too bad I’m wasting my time
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08:05:15arkanoidI really think arraymancer/datamancer should switch it's underlying memory model to apache arrow
08:05:53arkanoidAll mayor data manipulation players are going in that direction
08:13:38FromDiscord<that_dude> What is it using right now, and how can I read about the differences?
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08:28:04arkanoidthat_dude, the apache arrow model is described in it's own site. From what I know, the "numerical" based arrays are 1:1 between ArrayMancer <> Numpy <> Arrow, but strings are different among the three. Pandas now has a new "string[arrow]" type to use arrow memory model for strings, but Arraymancer doesn't do that and works with pointers
08:28:40arkanoidthis piece of code works with --gc:refc but doesn't compile with --gc:arc, can you tell me how to fix? https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3ME7
08:29:00FromDiscord<Rika> Maybe worth pinging mratsim
08:29:52arkanoidRika: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3ME7
08:29:54arkanoidups
08:29:59arkanoidRika: https://github.com/mratsim/Arraymancer/issues/417#issuecomment-593155129
08:31:45FromDiscord<Rika> Ah I see
08:31:59FromDiscord<Rika> I’m not math enough to get into it
08:33:40arkanoidpolars (rust), cudf (nvidia), pandas (python) .... https://arrow.apache.org/overview/
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08:50:57NimEventerNew thread by Giaco: Setting finalizer on object hierarchy won't compile with --gc:arc, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/8820
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09:04:50FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "I really think arraymancer/datamancer": The standard data layout is DLPack: https://github.com/dmlc/dlpack
09:05:05FromDiscord<mratsim> Arraymancer layout is compatible with Numpy, PyTorch and Tensorflow
09:06:11arkanoidmratsim, my experiments shows that that is true only for numerical data, but not string-based one, correct?
09:07:13FromDiscord<mratsim> With the Laser backend change at least at a low-level supports passing buffer in zero-copy mode between Arraymancer and others framework, to import a buffer you just need to set memowner to false: https://github.com/mratsim/Arraymancer/blob/master/src/arraymancer/laser/tensor/datatypes.nim#L38-L40
09:07:47FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "<@570268431522201601>, my experiments shows": It's not possible for strings. Memory representation of strings in Nim is different from C or Python
09:09:44arkanoidbut wouldn't be possible to adopt arrow memory model for strings in Arraymancer? Numpy can do that: https://arrow.apache.org/docs/python/numpy.html
09:11:08arkanoidcurrently, working with strings dataset locks nim datascience experience into limited set of tools
09:11:28FromDiscord<mratsim> Sure, but there are very few algorithms that makes sense for strings in Arraymancer. It's more for Datamancer.
09:12:27arkanoidsure, I'm talking about Arraymancer as Tensor for Datamancer
09:14:24arkanoidI've already succeeded in zero-copy passing from arraymancer -> numpy -> arrow (looking for link right now) but that's just for numerical data. When I work with datasets, I always have some string labels somewhere
09:14:31FromDiscord<mratsim> I think the best would be to create a package for the core memory representation, Call it "I took an arrow in the nim" and Have Arraymancer only have the algorithm.
09:16:00arkanoidhere https://github.com/SciNim/scinim/issues/8#issuecomment-991844883
09:16:02FromDiscord<Rika> LOL
09:16:47FromDiscord<mratsim> Either you wrap C/C++ like we did with flambeau https://github.com/SciNim/flambeau/blob/master/flambeau/raw/bindings/rawtensors.nim↵↵Or since it seems like Arrow is a versioned spec, you implement the spec from scratch.
09:18:27arkanoidwell, there's https://arrow.apache.org/docs/format/CDataInterface.html, then arrow exposes C api via gobject and I've successfully wrapped it automatically with futhark https://github.com/PMunch/futhark/issues/6#issuecomment-986969310, but there's also manual wrapping https://nimble.directory/search?query=arrow
09:21:04FromDiscord<mratsim> It seems like a simple enough format to implement in a separate lib from scratch
09:21:14FromDiscord<mratsim> the spec goes into physical layout details like https://arrow.apache.org/docs/format/Columnar.html#fixed-size-list-layout
09:21:31FromDiscord<mratsim> We just need a library name cc @Vindaar @Clonkk .
09:21:50FromDiscord<mratsim> and time.
09:22:25FromDiscord<Rika> ~~Skynim~~
09:22:33FromDiscord<mratsim> lol
09:22:36FromDiscord<mratsim> Archer
09:22:45FromDiscord<mratsim> or if there is a "Archer king" we pick that name
09:23:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Sterling
09:23:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Someone get the sterling reference please
09:23:30FromDiscord<amadan> phrasing
09:23:40FromDiscord<amadan> or do we not do that anymore?
09:23:41FromDiscord<Rika> Apollo? It’s a common name of course
09:23:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Ehhh
09:24:02FromDiscord<Rika> Oh sweet “Apollo stays the serpent Python”
09:24:03FromDiscord<Rika> Lmfao
09:24:14FromDiscord<Rika> Slays
09:24:16FromDiscord<Clonkk> A native implementation of the Arrow specs would be dope↵(@mratsim)
09:24:19FromDiscord<Rika> I typed stays and I don’t know why
09:24:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Just call it fletching cause it gets scinim where they want to go
09:24:35arkanoidNarrow
09:25:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Damn ark with the genius "add the first letter of Nim to the word" 😛
09:25:43PMunchNarkanoid
09:25:49FromDiscord<Clonkk> Quiver ? Fleche (to follow Flambeau footstep of french wordplay) ?↵(<@709044657232936960_arkanoid=5b=49=52=43=5d>)
09:25:59FromDiscord<Rika> Narco xd
09:26:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> He's not a nark
09:26:10FromDiscord<Rika> Quiver is a common name
09:26:19FromDiscord<Rika> I believe Apache has something named that
09:26:37FromDiscord<Clonkk> Go full meta then and call it `U+02192`
09:26:51FromDiscord<Clonkk> (unicode for right arrow)
09:26:52arkanoidreminds me Narc knight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEdv1VEaogA
09:27:16FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @Clonkk "Go full meta then": Very catchy name
09:27:31FromDiscord<Rika> Hey do you use that library with numbers for a name
09:27:34FromDiscord<Clonkk> Simple to remember as well
09:27:40PMunchHaha :P
09:28:35FromDiscord<Rika> Lul Arrowmancer
09:28:50FromDiscord<Clonkk> rofl
09:29:08FromDiscord<Clonkk> Isn't it a bit old to add "-mancer" to everything \:D
09:29:09PMunchHmm, I'm generalising the AVR stuff from Badger. I want to create a framework/library for this, but I'm struggling with a name
09:29:25FromDiscord<Rika> I mean wasn’t it supposed to integrate with Arraymancer
09:29:28PMunchI could call the framework Badger, and the keyboard firmware Badger-board or something
09:30:58FromDiscord<evoalg> I thought of a name but realized it was too cupid to mention
09:31:55FromDiscord<Clonkk> Call it `dart` like a small arrow, I'm sure noone has ever done that
09:32:02FromDiscord<Clonkk> No confusion possible here
09:32:36arkanoidPMunch: you can always go get some inspiration from old flash times https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGlyFc79BUE
09:32:42FromDiscord<mratsim> Or bolt
09:33:31PMuncharkanoid, the framework is called badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger
09:33:40PMunchAnd the keyboard is called mushroom
09:33:41arkanoidmake sense
09:34:04arkanoidand let me guess python api
09:34:30FromDiscord<evoalg> @mratsim you said "If you don't use sequences, strings and ref types, there is no garbage to collect" ... so if I only use arrays and such, could I use --gc=none? (remember you're talking to a baby who doesn't understand a lot)
09:34:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes
09:34:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I guess exceptions aswell
09:35:08FromDiscord<evoalg> would that make it possible faster?
09:35:20FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Allocations generally arent the reason programs are slow
09:35:23arkanoid also closures I guess, but unsure
09:35:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Dumb allocations are
09:36:00FromDiscord<evoalg> so gc doesn't really slow things down much huh?
09:36:30FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `ref`, `seq`, `closure`, `string` exceptions, are all the things that are heap allocated and create garbage, i'm sure i'm missing stuff
09:36:45FromDiscord<evoalg> ahhhhhh
09:36:52FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well it can slow down but generally the issue isnt the GC as much as not reusing memory or designing the code intelligently
09:37:08FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Aside from the allocation a seq and an array are going to be the same speed to iterate over
09:37:34FromDiscord<evoalg> oh!
09:38:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The issue with reference over value type is generally do to the cache locality, `ref` throws values all over the heap so when you're iterating over them you have to go back to ram more often
09:38:51FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> And going back to ram vs. cache is slooooow
09:38:56PMunchThe greatest speed increase is definitely in designing your program and algorithms
09:39:16FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @PMunch "The greatest speed increase": Nope, it's when you do no work 😉
09:39:38PMunchWell if you're not doing work you're not getting anything done, so speed is 0
09:39:43FromDiscord<mratsim> no work > carefully designed work > accidentally quadratic
09:39:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You're right, make all programs happen at compile time and cache every possible state!
09:40:09FromDiscord<mratsim> sometimes the only thing you can do is waiting (for the users, for the network, ...)
09:40:22FromDiscord<mratsim> async/await makes progress by waiting
09:40:39FromDiscord<mratsim> that's why you can handle millions of async tasks on a single CPU
09:41:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> "I dont get it my game's FPS is so low"↵"Have you tried giving inputs more often"😛
09:41:20PMunchYeah async is really neat if your code spends most of its time sitting around waiting for hardware
09:41:46PMunchHmm, that could be an interesting game concept
09:42:14PMunchThe faster you type the higher the framerate, and typing is somehow the core input
09:42:33PMunchI guess it would be similar to SuperHot though
09:42:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Superhot meets typing of thedead
09:43:16PMunchTyping of the Dead?
09:43:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Typing_of_the_Dead
09:43:49FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Arcade shooter turned into keyboard instruction
09:44:09FromDiscord<Clonkk> I propose a remake of Speed about a programmer who has a bomb in his computer and if he stops typing below a certain speed the bomb explode
09:44:11FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @evoalg "<@!570268431522201601> you said "If": it depends on what you want to do, if you want to avoid having to use NimMain when you use Nim as DLL, yes avoid those types and also top-level variable (i.e. wrap everything in a function)
09:44:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yea that's going right over Evo's head
09:44:44FromDiscord<evoalg> that's right 😉
09:44:57FromDiscord<evoalg> I realized I shouldn't have asked the question
09:44:58FromDiscord<mratsim> so what do you want to do?
09:45:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Evo is new to system programming in general
09:45:10FromDiscord<mratsim> meh, only way to learn is by asking questions
09:45:16FromDiscord<mratsim> to Google at least
09:45:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Evo just wants to not write unoptimized code that he learned to write from python, but he should ask a profiler instead of sages 😛
09:45:59FromDiscord<mratsim> oh, don't worry about GC then?
09:46:04FromDiscord<mratsim> (edit) "then?" => "then."
09:46:23FromDiscord<Clonkk> Yeah the rules is usually "if you don't understand GC, then don't worry about GC"
09:46:25FromDiscord<evoalg> ok ... I won't worry 🙂
09:47:16FromDiscord<mratsim> GC is for squeezing the last 10%.
09:47:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> My rule is "If it's slow profile it, if it's not carry on until it is" 😛
09:47:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> GC's get a bad wrap but they're nice generally
09:47:51FromDiscord<Clonkk> So... Make it work, then make it fast, then make it work after breaking everything to make it fast \:D ?
09:48:02FromDiscord<mratsim> basically, avoid quadratic behavior and then you're in good shape.
09:48:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes
09:48:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You left out "avoid sequtils for iterating"↵(@mratsim)
09:49:08FromDiscord<mratsim> When I need iteration, I write my own for loops 😉
09:49:24FromDiscord<evoalg> or use slicerator ftw!
09:49:46FromDiscord<mratsim> Or https://github.com/numforge/loop-fusion
09:49:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There we go 😛
09:50:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Fuck that's hard to read
09:50:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> ` forZip i, x in var a, y in b, z in c:` ah yes
09:50:50FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I have my new dumb `chain` macro which probably isnt much better `for i, x in chain a.items.filter(i > a.len div 2).map(x 10):` but alas
09:50:56FromDiscord<mratsim> or zero-copy views: https://github.com/mratsim/constantine/blob/master/research/kzg_poly_commit/strided_views.nim#L219-L245
09:51:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Depending what we're getting views into ... just use `[]` iterators
09:51:56FromDiscord<mratsim> I need to reverse, split or take 1 out of 2 very big integers.
09:52:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yea i just make toys so i dont need anything fancy
09:52:51FromDiscord<mratsim> that' the fancy part: https://github.com/mratsim/constantine/blob/master/research/kzg_poly_commit/strided_views.nim#L29
09:52:56FromDiscord<mratsim> (edit) "that'" => "that's"
09:53:06FromDiscord<mratsim> `lent UncheckedArray[T]`
09:53:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I recall talking about it prior
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09:56:52FromDiscord<evoalg> yay I can capture ctrl-c ... https://stackoverflow.com/questions/54713213/how-do-i-handle-ctrl-c-interrupt-in-nim
09:57:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Imagine if you couldnt 😛
09:57:49FromDiscord<Rika> Vim would be infinitely easier to exit
09:58:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Hey all modern vim walks you out
09:59:54arkanoidmratsim, how did you became so skilled in low lever data handling? Academic background or else?
10:00:01FromDiscord<Rika> If it has a prompt telling me how to properly exit, why can’t it just… exit
10:00:55FromDiscord<Clonkk> What ?! Quitting is super easy `sudo pkill -9 vim`, boom you're done↵(@Rika)
10:00:56FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I'm not UI-ologist↵(@Rika)
10:01:36FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @Clonkk "What ?! Quitting is": Not in list of sudoers, incident reported, yada yada
10:02:01FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "<@570268431522201601>, how did you": I was bored.
10:02:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I think you just kick the PC until the PSU cuts off
10:02:15FromDiscord<evoalg> at least vim gives you two different ways to exit
10:02:36FromDiscord<evoalg> oh three ways thx to beefy
10:03:18FromDiscord<mratsim> @arkanoid, @Clonkk @Vindaar ,↵↵Seems like Arrow is columnar only, i.e. it doesn't really support multidimensional Tensor: https://arrow.apache.org/docs/format/Other.html
10:03:32FromDiscord<Rika> I mean you could just wait for cosmic rays to kill vim with a memory error
10:04:24FromDiscord<mratsim> So you should be able to export/import with zero-copy but I can't use it for matrix or deep learning stuff.
10:04:49FromDiscord<evoalg> In reply to @Rika "I mean you could": as long as you have non-parity ram?
10:04:55FromDiscord<Clonkk> Well that sucks↵(@mratsim)
10:05:15FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @evoalg "as long as you": Most don’t AFAIK, thanks Intel
10:05:27FromDiscord<Clonkk> Reminds me of the xkcd about the butterfly effect↵(@Rika)
10:05:40FromDiscord<Rika> They had a comic about it, huh
10:05:44FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @Clonkk "Well that sucks (<@570268431522201601>)": I do think it's a better data structure for dataframes though.
10:06:02FromDiscord<Clonkk> https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/real_programmers.png↵(@Rika)
10:06:12FromDiscord<mratsim> representing nulls when you have an integer dataframes, or stuff that mixes integer and strings is such a pain.
10:06:33FromDiscord<mratsim> which is why I prefer to deal with deep learning 😉
10:06:45FromDiscord<Rika> Emacs has the dumbest chord combo sometimes ngl
10:06:50FromDiscord<Rika> Can’t get used to it
10:07:18FromDiscord<Rika> I’ll be honest I have a harder time exiting Emacs than Vim
10:07:19FromDiscord<Clonkk> Yeah I'm mainly concerned about numerical Tensor↵(@mratsim)
10:07:46FromDiscord<Clonkk> Well that's how on purpose because emacs wants you to do everything inside it↵(@Rika)
10:07:59arkanoidClonkk, without string manipulation, you're keeping a lot of science application outside nim domain
10:08:01FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @Clonkk "Yeah I'm mainly concerned": for numerical tensor the standard is DLPack which is the same repr as Numpy, Pytorch, tensorflow
10:08:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Emacs is an OS not a editor
10:08:24FromDiscord<Clonkk> Yeah, it's just not my personal use case↵(<@709044657232936960_arkanoid=5b=49=52=43=5d>)
10:08:41FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "<@805869905320214558>, without string manipulation,": sure but you don't need 3D strings manipulation.
10:08:41FromDiscord<Clonkk> I don't disagree
10:09:02FromDiscord<mratsim> which is Arraymancer domain, say when dealing with colored images.
10:09:18arkanoidmratsim, see Apache Arrow Tensor https://arrow.apache.org/docs/format/Other.html
10:09:30FromDiscord<mratsim> The page is empty
10:09:35FromDiscord<mratsim> there is no format for tensors.
10:09:56arkanoidempty? I see it with multiple devices
10:10:11FromDiscord<Rika> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/932939917632348160/IMG_6167.png
10:11:17FromDiscord<mratsim> There is no format, <tensor body> doesn't tell me how to make that compatible with other implementations
10:11:43FromDiscord<Rika> Ah that’s what you mean
10:12:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yea it's a nothing burger without cheese
10:12:13FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> We give it padding, then wave our hands vaguely
10:12:49FromDiscord<Rika> I assume it’s as the prose says
10:12:56FromDiscord<Rika> Columnar spec with the change
10:13:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> > tensor (multidimensional array) stored as Binary values and having serialized metadata indicating the data type and shape of each value. This could be JSON like {'type'\: 'int8', 'shape'\: [4, 5]} for a 4x5 cell tensor
10:14:33FromDiscord<mratsim> yes but that's for IPC, there is no description of an in-memory representation.
10:15:07arkanoidit must be somewhere, arrow is made for interop
10:15:26arkanoidhere's the C api (gobject based) for Tensor https://arrow.apache.org/docs/c_glib/arrow-glib/GArrowTensor.html
10:15:34FromDiscord<mratsim> And their columnar representation doesn't support Arraymancer use-cases.
10:16:46FromDiscord<mratsim> that's the same repr as Arraymancer. It doesn't seem to support null values or a mix of strings and ints and floats for example.
10:17:13FromDiscord<mratsim> so Arraymancer should be compatible with Arrow Tensor.
10:17:41FromDiscord<xx_ns> In reply to @Rika "If it has a": the same reason Ctrl-C doesn't close bash or zsh or any other interactive shell you're in
10:17:48FromDiscord<xx_ns> vim is also interactive, just like a shell
10:18:11FromDiscord<Rika> And plenty of other interactive programs do actually close with control+c
10:18:40FromDiscord<Rika> The shell idea is understandable, it’s the last program you want to close in a terminal
10:18:54FromDiscord<xx_ns> then those programs are incorrectly programmed 🙂
10:19:20FromDiscord<xx_ns> if i press Ctrl-C, i want my half-completed command to be erased, not the entire shell closing
10:19:29FromDiscord<Rika> Then there are a majority more incorrect programs than “correct” ones I assume
10:19:54FromDiscord<Rika> Where did you get this convention anyway
10:20:55FromDiscord<xx_ns> i mean that's just how programs which provide a shell (like bash, zsh, vim, etc) work
10:21:05FromDiscord<xx_ns> if my shell exited after i press ctrl-c, i would be so mad
10:21:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Let's take the pragmatic approach that ctrl + C should behave like `:q` in vim
10:21:53FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "here's the C api": Internally it's just that: https://github.com/apache/arrow/blob/36791327fabb0a137bb448dc10aeefa745640cf6/c_glib/arrow-glib/tensor.cpp↵↵It's pretty much this at the core: https://github.com/mratsim/Arraymancer/blob/master/src/arraymancer/laser/tensor/datatypes.nim
10:21:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That way we can say it will warn you of work needing to be saved
10:24:24arkanoidmratsim: so you think Arraymancer 1D Tensor -> Apache Arrow Array, Arraymancer 2D+ Tensor -> Apache Arrow Tensor ?
10:25:29FromDiscord<mratsim> Datamancer -> Apache Arrow, Arraymancer -> Numpy/PyTorch/Tensorflow compatible repr like today.
10:25:45FromDiscord<mratsim> and glue for conversion
10:26:41arkanoidmratsim, but aren't Datamancer columns Arraymancer Tensors? Sorry if this sounds too naive, just asking
10:27:08FromDiscord<xx_ns> In reply to @Rika "Then there are a": also idk what you mean by this - i just tested, and pretty much all of the interactive programs i use regularly like vim, midnight commander, nmtui etc do not exit on ctrl-c
10:27:09FromDiscord<mratsim> They are, but they support multiple backends
10:27:23FromDiscord<xx_ns> even in the linux kernel's `make menuconfig`, ctrl-c does not exit by default
10:27:39FromDiscord<Rika> Maybe I’m misremembering then
10:28:02FromDiscord<Rika> I still don’t know why you would have each program exit a different way from every other program
10:28:16FromDiscord<mratsim> or I'm confusing with the other dataframe package
10:28:36FromDiscord<mratsim> anyway I think Arrow would be a better backend than Arraymancer cc @Vindaar
10:28:52arkanoidok, but if I fill a Datamancer dataset in future Arrow mode, will I be able to run Arraymancer ops on single columns just like now?
10:28:57FromDiscord<mratsim> just for dealing with mixed data and nulls
10:29:38FromDiscord<mratsim> No because algorithms must take into account nulls and mixed values (string in a int column) so need to be adapted anyway
10:30:02FromDiscord<mratsim> if the datatype however is consistent yes
10:30:03arkanoidgot it, I guess the differences are just like from pandas to numpy
10:30:19arkanoidbtw, the pandas roadmap is filled with arrow references https://pandas.pydata.org/docs/development/roadmap.html#apache-arrow-interoperability
10:30:26FromDiscord<mratsim> you can use fromBuffer and point to the memory buffer of Datamancer/Arrow.
10:30:33arkanoidand pandas dtype string[arrow] already works
10:31:45FromDiscord<mratsim> basically, while at a high-level DataFrames and Tensors look similar. Tensors mostly deal with numerical types (except for text analysis but in that case characters are converted to integers)
10:31:57FromDiscord<xx_ns> In reply to @Rika "I still don’t know": again, that's just the convention for most interactive programs. I think why vim gets most of the heat for it is because `$EDITOR` is set to `vi` or `vim` on most distros by default
10:32:10FromDiscord<xx_ns> which, now that i think about, doesn't even make sense because even `nano` doesn't exit with ctrl-c!
10:32:15FromDiscord<mratsim> there are many special stuff that require special dance in dataframes.
10:32:27FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @xx_ns "again, that's just the": I am fine with it not being C-c, I mean why are they all different in the end
10:32:53FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @xx_ns "which, now that i": It shows how to at the bottom at all times
10:32:55FromDiscord<xx_ns> i mean `q` is the most used convention but there are exceptions
10:33:16FromDiscord<Rika> Vim does too but at the middle and it disappears if you type a bit and people are inattentive
10:33:18arkanoidmratsim, sure, I see each array/tensor as single dataframe column
10:33:25FromDiscord<Clonkk> From what I read, `GArrowTensor` could perfectly well be implemented as a `TensorConcept`↵(@mratsim)
10:33:26FromDiscord<xx_ns> In reply to @Rika "Vim does too but": vim shows it if you hit ctrl-c
10:33:28FromDiscord<xx_ns> since forever i think
10:33:39FromDiscord<xx_ns> i use neovim personally so i'm not too sure on that
10:33:41FromDiscord<Rika> Ah yeah that too but noobs don’t know of C-c either
10:33:46FromDiscord<xx_ns> or plain vi on embedded devices
10:33:52FromDiscord<Rika> Which is why they get flak
10:34:03FromDiscord<Rika> And probably a bit of bandwagoning effect too
10:34:27FromDiscord<xx_ns> well, "noobs" shouldn't be using `vi` 😁 and if they do get stuck, it's a quick crash course for them
10:34:38arkanoidmratsim, sure I've already experienced fromBuffer usage here: https://github.com/SciNim/scinim/issues/8#issuecomment-990573363, for numerical buffers zero-copy Arraymancer <-> Numpy <-> Arrow already seems to work
10:35:02FromDiscord<xx_ns> In reply to @xx_ns "well, "noobs" shouldn't be": anyways this topic is more suited for #offtopic probably
10:35:02FromDiscord<Clonkk> Dataframe column can change size while Tensor base element are always of the same size usually↵(<@709044657232936960_arkanoid=5b=49=52=43=5d>)
10:35:11FromDiscord<mratsim> sent a long message, see http://ix.io/3MEL
10:35:20FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @xx_ns "anyways this topic is": I don’t think we should continue it anyway
10:35:23FromDiscord<xx_ns> same
10:36:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Battling to the death would've been cooler
10:36:38FromDiscord<mratsim> https://tenor.com/view/game-of-thrones-i-demand-a-trial-by-combat-tyrion-lannister-gif-16328126
10:36:43arkanoidWhats the advantage of Arrow vs DLPack? Why apache went from first to second?
10:36:53FromDiscord<mratsim> Apache went both.
10:37:14FromDiscord<mratsim> Arrow for DataFrames, DLPack for deep learning / multidimensional arrays / tensors
10:38:07FromDiscord<mratsim> DLPack doesn't need to deal with mixed datatypes (float+int+string), DLPack doesn't need to deal with empty values, and AFAIK it doesn't need to deal with strings.
10:38:32FromDiscord<mratsim> but it has to deal with multidimensional arrays.
10:39:48FromDiscord<mratsim> I think here it's important to specialize and provide glue between stuff.
10:40:00arkanoidI've worked a lot with pandas, and afaik each column (pd.Series) is a numpy array or ndarray with single dtype, can't fit multiple types in same column. But you can have null/mask
10:40:55FromDiscord<mratsim> you can fit multiple types, it just become "object" and use Python dynamic dispatch. Which you can't do in C/C++/Rust/Nim.
10:41:10FromDiscord<mratsim> they use that to good profit for null values
10:41:21FromDiscord<mratsim> that's why Apache Arrow validity map is interesting.
10:41:40FromDiscord<mratsim> it avoids dynamic dispatch in the common case of mixing integer + some missing.
10:42:47FromDiscord<mratsim> but asume you have integers and some missing, you can't use Arraymancer sum anymore unless you 0 the missing stuff. But in that case you can't use product, unless you "1" the missing stuff.
10:43:16FromDiscord<mratsim> so even algorithms need to be specialized to Apache Arrow/Dataframe specificities
10:43:52arkanoidin all my experience with multiple datasets and fixing datascience work written by non-programmers (been working in research lab for years) I've found almost zero Python Objects used as Dataframe cells, but yeah, lots of sparse Dataframes with nulls
10:44:44FromDiscord<mratsim> obviously you didn't get Excel data, where people are supposed to put a scale from 1 to 10 and suddenly you get "I took an arrow in the knee"
10:44:45arkanoidwith pandas if you try to apply function to Series with nulls, you have first to replace them, or remove them, or impute them
10:45:48FromDiscord<mratsim> The worse being time field. Sometimes it's formatted as unix epoch, someties you get a random string.
10:46:22FromDiscord<Clonkk> unsanitized user input is hell to handle↵(@mratsim)
10:46:41FromDiscord<mratsim> so for data cleaning it's important to support mixed datatypes, which fortunately Arrow provide (except maybe on GPU)
10:47:10arkanoidwell, the only reason python datascience world is live and kicking, is because numpy is forcing some static typing into python scripts, forcing order into chaos
10:47:20FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @Clonkk "unsanitized user input is": Thank you for the idea: dataset from hell
10:47:41FromDiscord<Clonkk> Name of oyur punk rock band ?↵(@Rika)
10:47:48FromDiscord<Rika> Hey no lmfao
10:48:53FromDiscord<Clonkk> Well it was either that or your lastest thriller where a datascientist uses excel to solve murder
10:49:32arkanoidmy experience is that pandas is used more for preprocessing "dirty" original data. Load dataset as is into pandas, turn strings into types, handle nulls, name columns -> start doing science
10:49:44FromDiscord<Rika> Imagine a world where every data set was denormal
10:50:16FromDiscord<Rika> No ID numbers, extra columns used for arrays, etc
10:50:37FromDiscord<mratsim> sent a long message, see http://ix.io/3MES
10:52:35arkanoidI think it would be really sweet. But what about strings? If Datamancer goes Arrow, it would be able to handle string data, but then a non-null string column would not be able to be converted zero copy to Arraymancer
10:53:20arkanoidbtw, rust users uses polar, that based or arrow too > https://docs.rs/polars/latest/polars/
10:54:51arkanoidArraymancer currently uses nim strings as element, am I right?
10:57:18FromDiscord<evoalg> I'm glad I found this to capture ctrl-c https://stackoverflow.com/questions/54713213/how-do-i-handle-ctrl-c-interrupt-in-nim ... because when I look at https://nim-lang.org/docs/system.html#setControlCHook%2Cproc%29 it doesn't have an example and I would have been stuck. It seems a lot of things in system & manual for Nim don't have examples, and it forces babies like me to ask questions on here (which is something I've never had to do wit
10:58:28FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "Arraymancer currently uses nim": yes
10:59:02FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "I think it would": It can. Arraymancer is generic other the type.
10:59:08FromDiscord<mratsim> (edit) "other" => "over"
10:59:39FromDiscord<mratsim> If the Apache Arrow String has public proc, at least for `$` you can store them in an Arraymancer Tensor.
10:59:53arkanoidbut with copy
10:59:58FromDiscord<mratsim> no
11:00:50FromDiscord<mratsim> you just hand the `buffer: ptr UncheckedArray[ArrowBuffer]` to Arraymancer
11:02:01arkanoidwell, that would make Datamancer + Arrow a perfect marriage, and Arraymancer would still be capable to do all the low level superspeedy black magic it curretly does when dealing with multidimensional numerical tensors!
11:02:02FromDiscord<mratsim> basically, copy is necessary only for ownership.
11:02:30FromDiscord<mratsim> ownership is necessary with Nim strings/sequences or GC-ed types.
11:02:52FromDiscord<mratsim> or if the original owner disappears and delete its memory.
11:04:10arkanoidyeah I throw my zero-copy interop experiments to valgrind to double check this
11:05:07FromDiscord<mratsim> When I said, Arraymancer can be just the algorithm, I mean this: https://github.com/mratsim/constantine/blob/master/research/kzg_poly_commit/strided_views.nim↵↵This is a "strided view" for monodimensional arrays.↵It only neds memory to be valid while it processes it.
11:05:17FromDiscord<mratsim> (edit) "neds" => "needs"
11:06:14FromDiscord<mratsim> This is a generalization of openarrays ;).
11:07:54arkanoidyeah I've rolled my own views on seqs for a side project, too
11:09:08FromDiscord<mratsim> so do you want to tackle implementing the Arrow format?
11:09:33arkanoidbtw, I'd really happy to be able to load and preprocess science data via nim Datamancer, and them once it is in shape pass it to Arraymancer ad tensor for real work
11:11:35FromDiscord<Clonkk> If you want to tackle a Nim arrow implementation we can add you to the scinim Team if you're interested↵(<@709044657232936960_arkanoid=5b=49=52=43=5d>)
11:14:05arkanoiddo you mean building wrappers to Arrow C api, or reimplement pyarrow memory model structures in pure nim?
11:15:48FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "do you mean building": implementing in pure Nim.↵I've looked at the spec and it seems like the same amount of work to do any of those.
11:16:14FromDiscord<Clonkk> Ideally the second one as native implementation are often easier to work with but I can live with a good wrapper
11:16:37FromDiscord<mratsim> I'm sure people wants to ingest CSV at compile-time 😉
11:17:03FromDiscord<mratsim> the issue with the first one is distributing the C files along in Nimble.
11:17:16FromDiscord<mratsim> does it work well in Flambeau btw?
11:17:44FromDiscord<mratsim> For example BLAS on Windows is just hell.
11:18:34FromDiscord<Clonkk> The distribution of the shared library ? So far I haven't had any issue, it's just super slow to download torch on installation. If you mean in general, it still need works to have a higher level API easy to use↵(@mratsim)
11:19:30FromDiscord<Clonkk> That said we could use a way to distribute artifacts with Nimble
11:21:31arkanoida third option would be to use futhark to build C bindings automatically at compile time and build nim wrapper on it
11:22:17arkanoidsure I think a 100% nim implementation over stable Arrow C interface would allow compile time magic
11:24:28FromDiscord<Clonkk> Well you'd still to distribute the source code that Futhark needs as input ? At which point I don't really see the benefit of distributing C source file and wrapping them each compile vs just distributing the Nim generated file↵(<@709044657232936960_arkanoid=5b=49=52=43=5d>)
11:27:33arkanoidwell, you surely can distribute the generated nim file, but the original idea behind futhark afaik was to make it transparent and follow C api changes. What futhark need is -dev package installed and the equivalent info given by "pkg-config --cflags --libs arrow-glib"
11:30:57arkanoidin my experience, it takes a couple of seconds to generate nim bindings for C interface, and it caches the result to avoid doing that a second time if hash of the sources doesn't change. PMunch is the man here
11:32:00arkanoidcan nim do foreign function call at compile time?
11:32:53PMunchThank you, I'm so glad you like Futhark :) And yes you are correct, the idea was to build against the same library as you would if you where writing a C program. If you have a different version installed then Nim won't just silently assume an old version and introduce potential bugs.
11:33:02PMuncharkanoid, no, that's why I wrote Opir
11:33:26PMunchOpir is compiled and links against Clang, then Futhark calls Opir to actually do the C file parsing
11:34:50arkanoidyeah offline Opir -> json, compile time json -> futhark -> nim
11:35:34PMunchYup
11:36:16PMunchThe idea was that Futhark should be able to react to things defined in your project, however this is done mostly with a lot of `when defined` statements.
11:36:46PMunchIt does allow you to do things like a renaming/retyping callback proc and other such things though
11:39:21arkanoidyes, I've used that feature a couple of times when futhark didn't wrote the correct thing. It happens on const/enums
11:41:04PMunchYeah there are a couple known weaknesses
11:41:14PMunchHopefully I can iron out most of them after FOSDEM
11:41:50arkanoidapart from that, I never had a showstopper so far. The only one time I though it was one, it ended up being a nim regression
11:42:15FromDiscord<hugogranstrom> A C wrapper is better than no wrapper, but a pure Nim arrow package would be the best. Windows is awful when it comes to getting -dev packages and such.
11:43:38arkanoidI do agree, and I also consider it doable but I fear not having enough low level knowledge to build it with same quality as other scinim packages. I may try, I'm interested in learning, but I will require support and patience on your side
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11:48:52FromDiscord<vindaar> Seems like I've missed a lot these last couple of hours. Introducing a Arrow as a storage backend for Datamancer shouldn't be too much work, if the basic Arrow allocators are there. But it would certainly require us to use `fromBuffer` to hand the data to an Arraymancer tensor. Otherwise we end up missing things like `forEach` and add a few Arraymancer primitives (things like `concat` etc. that are used when resizing columns for example).
11:49:17FromDiscord<hugogranstrom> Quality-wise you can be rest assured you won't be too low, trust me 😉 If it works, it works. As simple as that 😄↵(<@709044657232936960_arkanoid=5b=49=52=43=5d>)
11:50:43FromDiscord<vindaar> So a separate `ArrowArray` thing that is used as a full replacement to the current Arraymancer.Tensor is a bit more work.Ideally of course we already want to have our concepts like `TensorConcept`, `VectorLikeConcept` etc. to have fully separate types (no `fromBuffer` needed), but still reuse most of the existing arraymancer, etc. code 🥰
11:52:47FromDiscord<vindaar> (I'd vote for a pure Nim version too though)
11:53:55FromDiscord<Vindaar> In reply to @mratsim "We just need a": @mratsim already thinking about the important things, I see
11:55:01arkanoidpoint is: I basically know zero about the internals of Datamancer/Arraymancer, but if you say that I can start playing with Arrow data structures for nim without knowing them in advance, I'm in
11:58:49FromDiscord<vindaar> Internals about Datamancer / Arraymancer we can answer. Yeah, just start from the basic of implementing `type ArrowArray` (or whatever it may be called) according to the spec. That's needed anyway. Once that is implemented we worry about introducing it as a Datamancer backend!
11:59:22FromDiscord<vindaar> what's your github name again?
12:01:13arkanoidme: https://github.com/arkanoid87
12:02:23FromDiscord<vindaar> ah, thanks
12:03:06FromDiscord<vindaar> you have an invitiation
12:07:03arkanoidthanks!
12:22:12FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @vindaar "Seems like I've missed": forEach needs special handling of missing values in a DataFrame package anyway no?
12:23:33FromDiscord<mratsim> also was forEach made public?It's backend agnostic and the main difficulty of forEach is dealing with multidimension, arrows is straightforward regarding that: https://github.com/mratsim/Arraymancer/blob/61188413abb269471ff5cbf4b9326ddd3c2a38c7/src/arraymancer/laser/strided_iteration/foreach.nim
12:23:40FromDiscord<mratsim> no "import tensor"
12:25:17FromDiscord<vindaar> well, `forEach` itself doesn't really care about missing values etc. If one has missing values in a `float` column, they are just NaN and it's up to whatever the user does whether that's a problem or not. If it's an `object` column, we use a regular `for` loop anyway
12:25:59FromDiscord<vindaar> ah, indeed. Didn't think about that as we have it as part of the arraymancer repo nowadays↵(@mratsim)
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12:27:25FromDiscord<mratsim> I think Datamancer can just use a for loop for everything. For parallelization, I'll think it over but I happen to have written so many threadpools in the past 2 years, maybe I'll be able to write them eyes closed xD
12:28:19FromDiscord<vindaar> sure, it could
12:28:34FromDiscord<vindaar> but as `forEach` works and is here, I don't see why not \:P
12:29:36arkanoidI fear that adding arrow for you is an easy task, so easy that my effor would end up just being a toy compared to what you would do in 10 mins
12:29:39FromDiscord<mratsim> well I'm not the one maintaining Datamancer 😉 :p
12:30:19FromDiscord<mratsim> I think it's a weekend task at least not the IPC stuff, just the data format.
12:30:37FromDiscord<mratsim> There might be some time spent figuring out the unions and strings and lists
12:30:44FromDiscord<vindaar> arkanoid "easy" is a very relative term. It may or may not be hard, but I agree with mratsim. It's at least a weekend project
12:31:19FromDiscord<vindaar> If it really was easy and little work, I would have done it already, btw (as arrow came up a few times before)
12:31:42arkanoidprobably me again and again :P
12:31:49FromDiscord<mratsim> I don't think it's hard inthe sense that the specs spells out stuff quite clearly.
12:32:56FromDiscord<vindaar> not only you ;)
12:33:00FromDiscord<mratsim> I would do stuff with seq first, and then for the ptr UncheckedArray (otherwise no zero-copy possible and not compatible with C) we can figure that out later.
12:38:48FromDiscord<enthus1ast> in a macro, how can i get the object type implementation of a ref object
12:39:33FromDiscord<enthus1ast> on an object type i can just call\: ty.getTypeImpl() , but on a ref this returns\: ref Foo2\:ObjectType
12:40:07FromDiscord<enthus1ast> i want to get the referenced object type details
12:49:09FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @enthus1ast "i want to get": You sacrifice a goat to sigmatch.nim
12:52:00FromDiscord<mratsim> I think this works for ref objects: https://github.com/status-im/nim-stew/blob/8a405309c660d1ceca8d505e340850e5b18f83a8/stew/shims/macros.nim#L184
12:53:58FromDiscord<enthus1ast> puh
12:54:16FromDiscord<enthus1ast> thank you @mratsim will have a look
12:55:59FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @enthus1ast "thank you <@570268431522201601> ": feel free to vent here once done: https://github.com/nim-lang/RFCs/issues/44
12:57:07FromDiscord<mlokis> Would someone listen to my idea of algorithm? I usually find flaws when i talk about my idea.
13:00:41FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @mlokis "Would someone listen to": don't ask to ask, just ask 😉
13:01:20FromDiscord<01> ye, just go ahead
13:06:03FromDiscord<mlokis> sent a long message, see https://paste.rs/H19
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13:14:13FromDiscord<mlokis> I came up with an idea that owner of the item should be the deepest dependency it has, so if you have modules `[a, b, c, d]` and connections `[a<-b, a<-c, b<-d, c<-d]` and you have tuple of `(i, j, k)` instantiated from `d` where `[i from a, j from b, k from b]`. Since there are no cyclic dependency allowed, either `b` nor `c` can possibly reuse the tuple. So we have two lowest dependencies and ownership of tuple will be taken by `d`.
13:14:46FromDiscord<mlokis> (edit) "b]`." => "c]`."
13:18:27FromDiscord<mlokis> @01 @mratsim is this explanation good? Does it make sense?
13:19:29FromDiscord<01> no clue
13:20:41FromDiscord<mlokis> In reply to @01 "no clue": i had one fundamental mistake here now its edited. Still nothing?
13:22:15FromDiscord<mratsim> so some kind of shortest path?
13:22:25FromDiscord<mlokis> no
13:22:36FromDiscord<mratsim> makes sense for me. That's what I do for task dependencies.
13:22:48FromDiscord<mlokis> finding shortest path is not a problem
13:23:35FromDiscord<mratsim> Ah no sorry, I randomize the owner: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/weave/cross_thread_com/flow_events.nim#L54-L57
13:23:35FromDiscord<mlokis> question is that lets say you make a change in `b`, you have to have guarantee that it has ownership of all types that depend on it
13:24:10FromDiscord<mratsim> so you have a direct acyclic graph?
13:24:11FromDiscord<mlokis> and that no two objects have ownership of same item
13:24:21arkanoidI have to handle a "not null-terminated string", not sure if handle it as a cstring and them remove the last byte, or go UncheckedArray[cchar]
13:24:23FromDiscord<mratsim> a tree if no cycle
13:24:42FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "I have to handle": seq[byte]
13:24:48FromDiscord<mratsim> or seq[char]
13:25:04arkanoidbut I am writing a C interface
13:25:10FromDiscord<mratsim> if you use a cstring or a string you'll have a read past buffer at one point
13:25:28FromDiscord<mratsim> then openarray[char]
13:25:38FromDiscord<mratsim> that's converted to pointer+len
13:25:47arkanoidit's not an argument, but an object field
13:26:41FromDiscord<mratsim> cstring as fields will likely lead you to point to invalid memory. I would use ptr UncheckedArray[char]
13:27:50FromDiscord<mratsim> string processing in C requires to rewrite the whole stdlib anyway because relying on `\n` is just hyper inefficient
13:27:59arkanoidyeah, I went the same way. Thanks. Is there difference from char and cchar here?
13:28:20FromDiscord<mratsim> I don't know cchar
13:28:32FromDiscord<mratsim> there is already signed char and unsigned char so shrug
13:28:48arkanoidcchar* {.importc: "char", nodecl.} = char
13:29:01arkanoidin system.nim
13:29:06FromDiscord<mratsim> char is fine.
13:29:55FromDiscord<mlokis> nim being transpiler makes everything so weird
13:30:16FromDiscord<enthus1ast> 🤪
13:31:11PMunch...
13:31:45FromDiscord<mlokis> i think i isolated what the algorithms inputs and outputs should be so am gonna prot it in python and see.
13:32:16arkanoidif nim is a transpiler, also gcc and clang are a transpilers
13:33:05FromDiscord<enthus1ast> please no transpiler / compiler discussion again...
13:33:38FromDiscord<mlokis> In reply to @arkanoid "if nim is a": i don't think transpiling into ir that is designed for it and some programming language is quite same thing
13:33:52FromDiscord<mlokis> (edit) "In reply to @arkanoid "if nim is a": i don't think transpiling into ir that is designed for it and some programming language is quite ... same" added "the"
13:33:53arkanoidsorry, I never experienced such a discussion before here, I'll just say: badger badger mushroom
13:34:58FromDiscord<mlokis> why cant we play nim here
13:35:39FromDiscord<mlokis> am pretty sure you can make nim minigame with discord bot
13:36:55FromDiscord<mlokis> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/Dc3
13:37:45FromDiscord<Rika> OH BOY
13:37:53FromDiscord<Rika> SOMEONE RESET THE TRANSPILER DAYS COUNTER
13:38:17NimEventerNew thread by Planetis: How to modify and redistribute software written with MIT license?, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/8822
13:38:20PMunchHaha, we should add that to NimBot :P
13:39:13PMunchBy the way: https://peterme.net/is-nim-a-transpiler.html
13:41:05FromDiscord<enthus1ast> core wars with nim script would be awesome \:)
13:41:16FromDiscord<Rika> that would be hard
13:41:28FromDiscord<Rika> i mean i cant imagine how it would work
13:42:26FromDiscord<enthus1ast> yeah must be a little different, but the idea of let two (or more) nimscripts fight each other is tempting
13:43:52PMunchCore wars?
13:44:02PMunchWho's maintaining NimBot?
13:44:31PMunchAnd is the code public?
13:45:38FromDiscord<Rika> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War
13:45:48FromDiscord<Rika> cool little minigame pitting programs against each other
13:46:26FromDiscord<Rika> ok so what if
13:46:32FromDiscord<Rika> redcode nim backend
13:46:50FromDiscord<enthus1ast> or vm
13:47:19FromDiscord<enthus1ast> ah backend so that i can run on the MARS?
13:47:19PMunchAh I see
13:47:24FromDiscord<Rika> or idk maybe just a program that can generate from nim-subset code
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14:15:08arkanoidmratsim, sorry for the naive question, but I'm unsure if I should write Arrow structs with manual memory management in mind (ptr instead of ref), or say in nimland and avoid unsafe
14:19:31arkanoids/say/stay
14:20:51arkanoidI mean, the api says "It is intended for the base structure to be stack- or heap-allocated by the consumer. In this case, the producer API should take a pointer to the consumer-allocated structure."
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14:22:05arkanoidthe way I handle this depends on the requirements of the consumer, or generally the intended nim software design
14:36:35FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "<@570268431522201601>, sorry for the": If we want them to zero-copy into CuDF and other stuff from the Python ecosystem or C++ (say if gradient boosted trees package accept Arrow format) need to use the same in-memory representation as Apache Arrow, so manual memory management
14:36:57FromDiscord<mratsim> but that can be easily changed later.
14:37:11arkanoidok, thanks, going into manual mode then
14:38:25FromDiscord<mratsim> I would go with Nim mode at first, layout the stuff. And then consider which libraries it's best to be compatible with (say CuDF, pandas/Dask?)
14:38:43FromDiscord<mratsim> and then look at those library what do they do with the arrow buffer we pass to them
14:39:02FromDiscord<mratsim> do they take ownership and in that case they need malloc-ed stuff from us.
14:42:49szahidis there something like "void" or none?
14:44:01FromDiscord<mratsim> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3MG4
14:44:30FromDiscord<mratsim> just an example, I don't have the full spec in my head.
14:45:16FromDiscord<mratsim> when we need to do manual memory management we can figure out what to replace ref ArrowDF if it's even needed
14:45:27FromDiscord<mratsim> and the buffer
14:45:30FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @szahid "is there something like": in what context? yes there is void
14:48:55arkanoidmratsim: the docs clearly says that the consumer has to allocate memory on heap or stack and pass a pointer of it to the producer, that is responsible of filling it. On release, the consumer calls release on the struct he owns and then the producer chains all the release recursively until done
14:55:59arkanoidin manual mode would be "var foo: ArrowArray (or malloc if heap is desired); createArray(foo.unsafeAddr); foo.release", in nim mode would be completely different
15:42:28FromDiscord<01> anyone here knows Haxe?
15:42:50FromDiscord<01> is there a more widely adopted language than Haxe, that's meant to be compiled to a lot of targets?
15:43:11FromDiscord<Rika> why are you asking here
15:43:13FromDiscord<Rika> in a nim discord
15:44:01FromDiscord<enthus1ast> @01\: you could try nim
15:44:03FromDiscord<enthus1ast> \:)
15:44:22FromDiscord<01> sorry
15:44:28FromDiscord<01> i thought i did it on off-topic
15:44:46FromDiscord<Rika> well what's stopping you from using nim
15:45:00FromDiscord<01> small ecosystem
15:45:05FromDiscord<01> nothing else really
15:46:42FromDiscord<Rika> would you fancy rust or go
15:46:49FromDiscord<Rika> or zig i dunno
15:46:54FromDiscord<01> go is large, which is great
15:47:06FromDiscord<01> but a lot of interface{}
15:47:06FromDiscord<Rika> but?
15:47:11FromDiscord<01> from experience
15:47:14FromDiscord<Rika> yes
15:47:18FromDiscord<01> also poor support for fp
15:47:19FromDiscord<enthus1ast> c / c++
15:47:29FromDiscord<enthus1ast> large mature eco system
15:47:41FromDiscord<01> ehh, yea, no
15:47:49FromDiscord<01> no standardized package manager/build tool
15:47:50FromDiscord<Rika> i would not wish such upon even my enemies
15:47:51FromDiscord<01> big time pass
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15:48:08FromDiscord<01> C/C++ is a mess imo
15:48:24arkanoidC++ is, C well, less
15:48:27*Schnouki joined #nim
15:48:35FromDiscord<Rika> not much less
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15:48:45arkanoidyeah, but yet
15:50:53FromDiscord<enthus1ast> think c++ got a package manager recently
15:50:59FromDiscord<01> they have it sure
15:51:04FromDiscord<01> just not a standardized one
15:51:06FromDiscord<01> afaik
15:51:15FromDiscord<01> Conan, and whatever Microsoft made
15:51:40FromDiscord<01> vcpkg, whatever that is
15:52:19FromDiscord<enthus1ast> i still can recommend nim, the eco system is not too bad, if something is missing you could quickly write it yourself, or wrap a library. I personally can live quite good with nim
15:54:36FromDiscord<Rika> if you cant get over the issues of other languages' ecosystem then ignore it first and weigh the other issues
15:54:52FromDiscord<01> wdym
15:56:18FromDiscord<Rika> if the ecosystem of each language arent "desirable" one way or another, look at the other stuff
15:57:05FromDiscord<enthus1ast> What do you miss?
15:57:10FromDiscord<01> ecosystem is just about the most important part though
15:57:42FromDiscord<Rika> yes, but you cannot make a decision on it at all
15:57:43FromDiscord<Rika> so ignore it
16:10:29FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @arkanoid "<@570268431522201601>: the docs clearly": let's move to the #science channel, are you in it?
16:11:26arkanoiddo you mean #nim-science?
16:12:50arkanoidwell, maybe you're no talking about irc
16:14:55FromDiscord<Rika> yes
16:15:00FromDiscord<Rika> they mean in discord
16:16:03arkanoidnever used discord in my life, worth trying? I'm too old for this new stuff
16:17:02FromDiscord<Rika> no
16:17:17FromDiscord<Rika> stay on irc if you have no issues with it
16:18:39arkanoidconfiguring discord, let's try
16:18:51FromDiscord<Rika> hes a goner..
16:19:10arkanoid?
16:20:05FromDiscord<Arkanoid> yo
16:33:40FromDiscord<Rika> hello
16:59:41FromDiscord<Patitotective> Is there another _npeg_ indentation example? https://github.com/zevv/npeg/blob/master/misc/indent.nim does not success (`ok=false`) and it doesn't actually capture the data into a table
17:12:28FromDiscord<gnu+linux user> In reply to @demotomohiro "You need to write": thonkuu
17:41:44arkanoidis it just me that once imported nimpy I got `.` template polluting the scope and I cant call normal nim procs anymore?
17:55:52PMunchHmm, is there a way I can define something like `const ext* = <something>` so that `import ext/implementation` would import `implementation` from what `ext` was defined as?
18:02:31PMunchI guess I could create dummy files in `ext` which imported based on the same rule..
18:02:39PMunchBut that seems a bit tedious..
18:03:27nrds<Prestige99> Hey PMunch, have you been running into issues with nimsuggest while using nimlsp recently?
18:03:58PMunchNothing in particular comes to mind
18:04:09PMunchBut my nimlsp might be compiled from an old version of Nim
18:04:29nrds<Prestige99> I've opened https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/19371 think it's been broken since 1.6.2
18:04:38nrds<Prestige99> but I haven't heard of others having the same problem so far
18:07:32FromDiscord<demotomohiro> Create a macro that takes `ext: static[string]` and produce`import ext/implementation` statement?
18:07:57PMunchPrestige, full disclosure I barely use any of the NimLSP features :P
18:08:54nrds<Prestige99> D:
18:09:44PMunch@demotomohiro, well yes, I could always create a `importImplementation` macro which expanded to `import ext/implementation`
18:10:37PMunchBut I want the user code to look like `import mylibrary; import ext/implementation` and mylibrary would then define `ext` in a way that the second import works
18:10:39nrds<Prestige99> It's just the diagnostics which are having issues, which are reported by nimsuggest. So likely just a nimsuggest bug
18:10:49nrds<Prestige99> or multiple nimsuggest bugs
18:12:07PMunchI could create all the files I want to define in a folder name `ext` which then imported mylibrary and then essentially turned into an include for whatever file I want, but that means I have to create all the files as dummies..
18:13:52PMunchPrestige, it definitely looks like a nimsuggest bug
18:17:37nrds<Prestige99> well at least I'm not crazy
18:17:55nrds<Prestige99> hopefully someone looks into this before 2.0 lol
18:18:49PMunchHave you tried running a bisect on it?
18:20:12nrds<Prestige99> Not yet, just tried different nim versions and found it started after 1.4.8
18:22:15nrds<Prestige99> I was going to bisect it but couldn't get nim to compile, will have to mess around with it a bit
18:26:42PMunchI wish there was an auto-bisect script shipped with Nim
18:27:08PMunchI had one that I used previously, but I think I've lost it..
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18:50:27PMunchUgh..
18:50:55PMunchSeriously, why can't I import the `os` module to use it in a macro when I'm compiling against AVR
18:51:02PMunchSuch a stupid limitation..
19:07:19PMunchIs there a way to have a package specific config file?
19:08:01PMunchI would like to have a config.nims file for my package that gets used when the package is used
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19:15:48PMunchThere really should be a way to import a module only for use in macros
19:15:53PMunchLike `static: import os`
19:28:08arkanoidif I have an object attribute and a function taking that object with same name, and I want to keep them as is, how can I tell nim to call the function istead of getting the attribute?
19:28:58PMunchBy using parenthesis
19:29:54arkanoiddoesn't seem to work. I actually have an iterator named like an attribute of the object it iterates
19:32:23PMunchHmm, curious
19:32:27PMunchI mean you can call it
19:32:42PMunchLike so: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3MHL
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19:34:21PMunchOh great.. You can't put an include in a `when compiles` statement either..
19:34:40PMunchSo I can't hackily test if a file exists that way..
19:43:10PMunchSo I can't import os and check if a file exists, because of a stupid limitation. And I can't try to include the file and check if that compiles because of some stupid limitation.
19:46:07PMunchAnd I can't patch the os module from my library to use my own version instead.
19:46:41PMunchAnd copying the stuff in the os module doesn't work because it relies on the compiler to override the implementation, and that is done on a per-module basis
19:49:54FromDiscord<Patitotective> Are there some alternatives to _npeg_?
19:50:13PMunch@Patitotective, what are you looking for?
19:50:24FromDiscord<Patitotective> offside-rule
19:50:31FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) "offside-rule ... " added "(indentation matters)"
19:50:53PMunchYou should be able to do that with npeg, no?
19:51:41FromDiscord<Patitotective> The _npeg_ example of indentation is poor so I don't know how to implement it
19:52:15FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) "it" => "a fully functional indentation parser"
19:52:32PMunchAnd instead of trying to figure it out you're looking for another parser which magically handles indentation?
19:52:58FromDiscord<Patitotective> In reply to @PMunch "And instead of trying": Both, meanwhile I'm reading this https://michaeldadams.org/papers/layout_parsing_2/LayoutParsing2-2014-haskell-authors-copy.pdf
19:54:29PMunchHmm, if I remember my npeg right I think you basically need to have a matcher that matches zero or more " " at the beginning of your line, and then in the match you pass that and your state object to a procedure which counts the length of that match and figures out where it goes
19:55:14NimEventerNew Nimble package! servclip - Manage your clipboard remotely, see https://gitlab.com/lurlo/servclip
19:56:34FromDiscord<Patitotective> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3MHR
19:57:39PMunchNot quite sure I understand what you mean
19:58:56FromDiscord<Patitotective> In the example https://github.com/zevv/npeg/blob/master/misc/indent.nim there is only one level indentation, what happens with two or more?
19:59:06FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) "level indentation," => "indentation level,"
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20:03:30FromDiscord<Patitotective> In reply to @PMunch "Not quite sure I": Should I share an example?
20:12:27PMunchIt should work fine
20:14:24PMunchHmm, it fails to match properly thought
20:14:27PMunchthough*
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20:15:43FromDiscord<Patitotective> Also I would like to see the implementation to generate an actual table, but I guess it's kinda complex because it requires object variants
20:15:48PMunchI mean p.match(data).ok returns false
20:18:11PMunchIt seems to fail on the `* !1` condition, that's strange
20:19:02FromDiscord<Patitotective> Maybe because it `&indentIn` and `&('\n' indentOut)`?
20:19:14FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) "Maybe because it `&indentIn` and `&('\n' indentOut)`? ... " added "(Doesn't consume the indentation)"
20:19:19FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) "indentOut)`?" => "indentOut)`" | "indentation)" => "indentation)?"
20:19:24FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) "(Doesn't" => "(doesn't"
20:20:46PMunchHmm, that might be it
20:22:41PMunchYeah, that seems to be it
20:23:06FromDiscord<Patitotective> And the solution is to remove the `&`, or?
20:23:18PMunchNo, that makes it fail much earlier
20:26:14PMunchIt almost handles two layers of indentation
20:26:44FromDiscord<Patitotective> In reply to @PMunch "It almost handles two": Why almost?
20:27:03PMunchYou can't drop two levels at the same time
20:27:31PMunchThis works: http://ix.io/3MI3
20:27:40PMunchBut remove the "t=10" statement and it fails
20:30:06FromDiscord<Patitotective> Maybe it should iterate backwards through `indentStack` until `$0` matches an element, and the index means the levels of indentation to get out from
20:30:10FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) "Maybe it should iterate backwards through `indentStack` until `$0` matches an element, and the index means the levels of indentation to get out from ... " added "(?)"
20:30:42FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) "Maybe it should iterate backwards through `indentStack` until `$0` matches an element, and the index ... means" added "it matched in"
20:31:06PMunchYeah the fix is pretty trivial: http://ix.io/3MI4
20:31:33PMunchBasically when getting out of indentation drop until the new indentation matches the current one
20:31:54PMunchIn fact I'm pretty sure you wouldn't need the indentStack at all
20:32:17FromDiscord<Patitotective> In reply to @PMunch "In fact I'm pretty": Then?
20:32:30PMunchJut use a number to track the current indentation
20:32:39PMunchI think that should work
20:32:51FromDiscord<Patitotective> Let me try
20:34:39FromDiscord<Patitotective> What is the opposite to the `inc` proc?
20:36:02FromDiscord<mratsim> In reply to @Patitotective "What is the opposite": dec
20:36:18FromDiscord<mratsim> you can also use inc(-1) I think
20:36:22FromDiscord<mratsim> or -=
20:36:27FromDiscord<mratsim> or += -1
20:37:18FromDiscord<Patitotective> In reply to @PMunch "Jut use a number": What do you think? http://ix.io/3MI5
20:50:40PMunchindOut could just also set the new indent level, maybe after verifying that the new level is lower than the old one
20:53:09FromDiscord<Patitotective> 👍
21:09:12madpropspatito detective
21:13:32FromDiscord<The Bron Jame (real)> How would I read input without making a newLine?
21:19:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `stdin.readChar` though it's blocking
21:26:29NimEventerNew thread by Reversem3: Nimble.directory down ? , see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/8824
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21:33:57FromDiscord<inv> what is wrong here? https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/933111994935038012/unknown.png
21:34:13FromDiscord<inv> autocomplete does not work
21:34:39FromDiscord<gerwy> In reply to @Patitotective "The _npeg_ example of": are you making a lang or something?
21:34:51FromDiscord<gerwy> because im making one too :3↵and its indentation based
21:36:40FromDiscord<Rosen> In reply to @inv "what is wrong here?": I also had it not work at all on windows
21:36:50FromDiscord<Rosen> Eventually gave up and just used vscode lmao but if you come up with a fix let me know
21:38:10FromDiscord<inv> @Rosen it is not windows. but WSL2
21:38:30FromDiscord<Rosen> oh dayum
21:38:53FromDiscord<inv> and for windows - the same problem - nvim made coredump and decided than no way to avoid vscode. but decided to try one more time in WSL2
21:39:23FromDiscord<inv> (edit) "and for windows - the same problem - nvim made coredump and decided than no way to avoid vscode. but decided to try one more time in WSL2 ... " added "and it does not work again. but vs+nim-plugin works fine again in WSL2 too"
21:41:59FromDiscord<IsaacPaul> Nim needs better error/error reporting for their tools. If autocomplete fails I'd like to see why. Perhaps I can open up the plugin and fix it. Currently using vscode without nimsuggest as that doesn't work for most of my projects.
21:42:37FromDiscord<Rosen> ok, so I copied the essence of that minimal config in my wsl2 env @inv and got autocompletion working correctly https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/933114181354422272/unknown.png
21:42:56FromDiscord<Rosen> dumb questions that have to be asked, you did :PlugInstall, right? And you're trying to use it on a .nim file that's on disk?
21:44:24FromDiscord<inv> I did. hm, with your example - it stuck for first autocomplete, but started to work later
21:45:09FromDiscord<Rosen> strange
21:47:21FromDiscord<inv> it works and does not work the same line and char. brrr
21:47:46FromDiscord<inv> it should be group_by here, and I see it ... sometimes https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/933115473057419324/unknown.png
21:48:19FromDiscord<inv> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/933115611532361818/unknown.png
21:48:26FromDiscord<Rosen> I'll try to get datamancer and repro that myself
21:48:32FromDiscord<inv> ctrl+space helps ... sometimes
21:50:00FromDiscord<Rosen> It's definitely that macro that's screwing it up
21:50:16FromDiscord<Rosen> Template, rather
21:50:22FromDiscord<inv> I do: `df.` then g - nothin, then r - nothing. then I delete last char , then ctrl+space - and I have it
21:50:56FromDiscord<inv> in vscode it works without any problem at all - that is why strange - I expected they use the same nimsuggesst
21:51:05FromDiscord<inv> (edit) "problem" => "problems"
21:52:01FromDiscord<inv> ah! looks like it is the same - but in vscode I type it faster 🙂
22:02:47FromDiscord<Patitotective> In reply to @madprops "patito detective": just like conan
22:03:34FromDiscord<Patitotective> In reply to @Life Sucks "are you making a": I'm making a preferences system yaml-like↵It is based on a Python library https://patitotective.github.io/PREFS/
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22:16:32FromDiscord<gerwy> Ah nice
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23:00:33FromDiscord<ajusa> Why does Nim get tripped up if I use the word include as an argument to a macro? Tried doing `foo(hx-include=5)` and it didn't compile. I know include is a keyword, but why is it an issue in a substring?
23:01:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> cause it's attempting to parse an include statmt
23:01:04FromDiscord<ajusa> Fwiw I used stropping to get the code working, but was curious as to why
23:01:31FromDiscord<ajusa> So include can't be used in any variables then? Or is it a macro thing?
23:01:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Some keywords cause the parser to go "ok we're looking for a X statement"
23:02:14arkanoidI have defined an iterator that works when used like "for x in myIt(y)", but doesn't compile if "for i,x in myIt(y).pairs():"
23:02:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=3MIA
23:02:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Since it's a `dotExpr`
23:02:21arkanoidwhat am I doing wrong?
23:02:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `import std/enumerate` `for x, y in enumerate myIt(y)`
23:03:11FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `pairs` is an iterator that is implemented for types
23:04:11FromDiscord<Patitotective> Hey @PMunch, I was wondering how to avoid that after you get out from two levels of indentation (to zero) the first level tries to indent out but it will fail since 0 is not less than 0↵http://ix.io/3MIz
23:04:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> you could also implement a `myItPairs(y)` which yields `(int, T)`
23:06:16arkanoidcould you please expand a little bit what you mean with `pairs` is an iterator that is implemented for types?
23:06:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://nim-lang.org/docs/theindex.html#pairs
23:07:41FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `pairs` is implicitly called when you do `for x, y in z` but it needs to be implemented for `z`, due to that you're using an `iterator` you'd either want to have a `pairs` variant or use enumerate
23:08:40arkanoidgot it, thanks
23:31:36FromDiscord<Patitotective> Hey @enthus1ast, did you start with the char's table macro?
23:32:10FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) "Hey @enthus1ast, did you start with the char's table macro? ... " added "I don't understand it yet 😅"
23:33:08FromDiscord<Patitotective> (Context: I want to convert `"\\n"` into `"\n"`)
23:33:44FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) "(Context: I want to convert ... `"\\n"`" added "unescape the backslash to get the actual escape sequence:"
23:33:49FromDiscord<Patitotective> (edit) removed "convert"
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23:53:08FromDiscord<evoalg> @ElegantBeef is the reason that a lot of things in system don't have examples because Nim is a small community? I'm referring to when I wanted to use setControlCHook but I was completely lost as how to use it in Nim if it wasn't for the example of stackoverflow? In python it's really easy to look up examples of most things I might want, but as I say I know Nim isn't a big community. Unless I'm looking in the wrong place for setControlCHook
23:54:30FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Kinda, someone probably didnt make an example, time for a PR from you
23:55:22FromDiscord<evoalg> so a PR isn't opening an issue?
23:55:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> A PR is a pull request, i'm suggesting you add a `runnableExample` to the `setControlCHook`
23:57:40FromDiscord<evoalg> oh ... I'm not experienced in using git ... I would somehow add it using git right?
23:57:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yep
23:58:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You'd fork the compiler, go into the nim file you want to add the runnable example to, add it, make a commit pushing to your fork, then make a PR to the Nim repo