<< 18-05-2023 >>
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00:22:33NimEventerNew post on r/nim by insomniac_lemon: Anybody still trying to make Godot 4.X bindings?, see https://reddit.com/r/nim/comments/13kj1cb/anybody_still_trying_to_make_godot_4x_bindings/
01:06:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> @sOkam! I assume you'll be interested
01:06:23FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> image.png https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1108561182564040824/image.png
01:06:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://github.com/beef331/truss3d/blob/guirewrite/src/truss3D/guiimpl.nim
01:07:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's wholly agnostic
01:07:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Doesnt use any specific vector, nor backend
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01:58:31FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> How can I only import those fields into another file
01:58:32FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> sent a long message, see https://paste.rs/WvO6n
01:58:41FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There is no selective importing of fields
01:58:45FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> For example, I know that NIm supports qualified imports with `from`
01:58:47FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> oh
01:58:55FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> That's kinda not fun
01:59:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> If you have access to the type you have access to the field if it's exported
01:59:08FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's kinda unimportant
01:59:33FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Well, I'm trying to do `from parse_git import MovedFile`
01:59:36FromDiscord<Rika> I don’t know a language that has field specific imports…
01:59:40FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> But that doesn't bring fields with it
01:59:47FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Haskell...↵(@Rika)
01:59:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That does bring the fields with it, if they're exported
02:00:14FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0 "Haskell... (<@259277943275126785>)": Okay, what else has it
02:00:42FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> I think you're right - my issue was unrelated - need to forward declare function
02:00:46FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Man - I'm so used to Haskell
02:01:03FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Haskell is so easy - I thought Nim would be too \:P
02:01:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It is easy
02:02:16FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0 "Haskell is so easy": A good amount of people would also say the opposite
02:03:30FromDiscord<JJ> ah, you'll be thrown off by the module system, coming from an ml descendant
02:04:36FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> @JJ\: you have a preffered FPL?
02:05:13FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> I used to use Nim a couple years ago actually
02:05:31FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> But I must have forgotten some of the finer details
02:07:14FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @apropos "ah, you'll be thrown": honestly the loss of pattern matching hits really hard in nim lol
02:07:32FromDiscord<JJ> In reply to @@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0 "<@572634810917322773>\: you have a": nim! ha
02:07:49FromDiscord<Rika> is nim really an fpl
02:07:55FromDiscord<Rika> its like uh
02:07:57FromDiscord<Rika> an fpl lite
02:08:15FromDiscord<JJ> actually if nim counts (which it definitely doesn't) then i'd probably say rust instead
02:08:17FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Building programs by value construction is the first thing that comes to mind in Nim
02:08:32FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> I think the answer is probably "no" (unless we're talking about enums), but is there a way to display the name of a constant (i.e. the identifier used in the source code) at runtime rather than its value?
02:08:39FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> isn't
02:08:47FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @michaelb.eth "I think the answer": technically yes
02:08:56FromDiscord<Rika> `astToStr` exists
02:09:15FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Rust has a pretty nice Macro system
02:09:17FromDiscord<JJ> i don't actually know too many purely functional languages. racket i suppose, just because it's the only one i actually know: i just hang out around enough haskell fans to know some stuff about it
02:09:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Constants fold in their callsite with any macro/template
02:10:14FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Honestly functional purity is overrated
02:10:24FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Now what's really cool is functional purity with laziness
02:11:14FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> I regularly build software using infinite lists in Haskell that would be hard using other approaches
02:11:46FromDiscord<JJ> i should learn haskell or ocaml but rust has adts so i just use rust instead. i don't think purity is very helpful without a full blown effects system.
02:12:23FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> unless you're using Elm
02:12:34FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> But yeah - generally you need an effects manager
02:13:14FromDiscord<JJ> laziness throws me off: it's one of those things i don't think i appreciate yet. rust's approach to laziness as types to chain maps etc is cool, but i think doing it entirely in the compiler like beef's iterators implementation would be better
02:13:58FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> http://yager.io/talks/CLaSH.pdf
02:14:01FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> page 14
02:14:29FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> It turns out that circuits are purely functional machines with state captured as infinite lists
02:14:40FromDiscord<JJ> In reply to @Rika "honestly the loss of": also 100%↵i've been playing around with writing an rfc for proper pattern matching in nim for quite some time but it's hard because for it to not be clunky you also do need proper adts instead of variant objects
02:14:40FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> That's primarily what I've been using Haskell for
02:15:21FromDiscord<Rika> god bless, verilog sucks
02:15:22FromDiscord<JJ> the downsides of variant objects (even ignoring the weird restriction of field names) far outweigh the downsides of adts imo
02:15:33FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The upsides of variants!
02:15:50FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> I could never really grasp variant in Ocaml
02:15:53FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> That just confused me
02:16:30FromDiscord<JJ> ik it makes reusing fields across multiple objects easier but i use that far less than having an enum of different objects rust-style
02:16:31FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> with polymorphic variants
02:16:54FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> haskell variants - much more sane
02:16:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Believe it or not james, but fungus is a perfect base to write a RFC for tagged unions
02:17:18FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> nim no has tagged unions?
02:17:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It has tagged unions
02:17:27FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Of course it does
02:17:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> They do not require unpacking so field names cannot be shared
02:18:14FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> hehe↵(@Rika)
02:18:15FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> yes
02:19:37FromDiscord<JJ> i don't really want object variants though
02:19:42FromDiscord<JJ> where did i put my notes
02:20:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Who said you did?
02:20:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Fungus is a fantastic basis to describe the relations and API internally that the compiler needs
02:20:29FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Maybe i'm just biased 😄
02:21:19FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> what is fungus?
02:21:24FromDiscord<JJ> https://github.com/beef331/fungus
02:21:39FromDiscord<JJ> oh i definitely agree adts are perfect for anything compilers
02:21:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5G
02:21:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> No i mean you said you wanted an RFC
02:22:09FromDiscord<JJ> the thing i was thinking of is a little more powerful - gah where did i put my notes
02:22:13FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> This library mostly describes the requirements for the type system to achieve your pattern matching
02:23:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Your notes are going to fall flat to me likely unless you use small words like 'I', 'a', and 'by'
02:23:14FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Fungus is cool - even if a little janky looking
02:23:29FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> I honestly wish all Python code would be replaced by Nim
02:24:25FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Is fungus a reference to the Rust fungus?
02:24:41FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It is indeed
02:24:50FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> As opposed to ferric oxide?
02:24:51FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I like pun filled/allusive names
02:24:59FromDiscord<JJ> well drat i don't know where they went, it was just some example code
02:25:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Jokes on you bub
02:26:13FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> rust is to metal as mold is to...
02:26:33FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> My lungs
02:26:41FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> oh no!!
02:26:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Sorry that's mould
02:26:52FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> chat GPT says "food"
02:27:08FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Never can trust AI i say
02:27:30FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> You have iron lungs?
02:27:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Nah I don't have polio
02:27:58FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Oh - 'nuf with the puns
02:28:17FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> You can't trust me?
02:28:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You use gitter of course i cannot
02:28:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That's like matrix but slightly weird
02:29:26FromDiscord<JJ> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5I
02:29:29FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Well - we're presently all using Matrix
02:29:31FromDiscord<JJ> arbitrary inline type composition
02:29:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> No james is on discord
02:29:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The rapscallion
02:30:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Get your ugly inline struct declaration and shove it
02:30:18FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Oof
02:30:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `typeof(Shape.Cube.dims)`
02:30:24FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> I'm kinda cracking up over here
02:30:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> What even is the type there James, and how would I access it in any sensible way
02:30:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Anonymous types make no sense to me
02:31:33FromDiscord<JJ> i don&#x27;t know what you&#x27;re talking about beef
02:31:41FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There we go
02:31:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The cooler james
02:31:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Even goes by JJ
02:31:51FromDiscord<JJ> christ the bridge fucked that
02:32:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Truth be told, I don't think bridges have the required anatomy for that
02:32:19FromDiscord<JJ> didn't even get my pfp much less my punctuation
02:32:43FromDiscord<JJ> yeah, james is actually my last name
02:33:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Fuck who gave me a keyboard
02:33:11FromDiscord<JJ> my first name sounds like a last name though and for a while i went by j-james everywhere so most people just called me james
02:33:13FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> image.png https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1108583036821458974/image.png
02:36:58FromDiscord<JJ> In reply to @Elegantbeef "What even is the": so that's another thing i was working on fleshing out in my notes, if i could find them [insert timmy turner's dad here]
02:41:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yay I have anchoring working with my gui rewrite
02:41:52FromDiscord<JJ> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5J
02:42:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That is a horrid syntax
02:42:27FromDiscord<JJ> i'm sure there are loads of edge cases, i kept discovering them while trying to seriously describe it
02:42:32FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It doesnt even align with Nim's present syntax
02:42:38FromDiscord<Dudugz> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/SyHL8
02:43:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Bleh you people and your weird desired syntaxs
02:43:32FromDiscord<Dudugz> lol, say that because you don't have a json configuration file with several fields
02:43:37FromDiscord<JJ> In reply to @Elegantbeef "It doesnt even align": yeah it doesn't at all. that's wrong and something i have to fix, i was adapting it from a model that used `match/of` and types following the colon for fancy types and a bunch of other Different changes
02:43:50FromDiscord<Dudugz> Then you have to create thousands of types just to be able to deserialize.
02:44:10FromDiscord<JJ> actually i'll put that in more proper nim syntax real quick i hope it doesn't break the bridge
02:45:41FromDiscord<Dudugz> If types could be created at runtime we wouldn't even need to define them when deserializing as it would be possible to create objects like JS
02:47:33FromDiscord<JJ> In reply to @@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0 "That's primarily what I've": also - sounds like i really should learn haskell. i thought that between rust and agda (in the future: learning it is a goal for the next few months) i covered haskell's major features (adts and type fuckery) but hadn't really though about laziness on its own
02:47:46*nanxiao quit (Quit: Client closed)
02:58:04FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @Elegantbeef "image.png": 100% 👀. thats epics
02:58:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Still uncertain how to abstract things like `Label` and `Button`, dont think I can without silly generics
02:59:56FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5M
03:02:12FromDiscord<JJ> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5O
03:02:33FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I do not get why people insist on calling those enums 😄
03:03:08FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes I know i called it an `adtEnum`, but they're not `enum` so stop it
03:03:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The worst part is that would cause issues with `proc doThing(t: enum)`
03:03:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It should be a `union` or other typeclassable type
03:04:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Edits are one way here Discord -\> Matrix
03:04:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The bridge is really sad
03:05:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> One day I'll write a Nim bridge, but that requires expanding the matrix api which is tedious 😄
03:05:16FromDiscord<JJ> probably a good idea to disallow edits as much as possible because irc
03:05:38FromDiscord<JJ> although i guess for code blocks it doesn't matter since those are like playground links or smth
03:06:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's a general bridge it's not nim specific so doesnt really matter 😄
03:06:36FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The Irc discord bridge can handle that and it's Nim specific
03:07:31FromDiscord<JJ> In reply to @Elegantbeef "The worst part is": wdym by this?
03:08:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You're using `enum` to declare an tagged union
03:08:04FromDiscord<JJ> also if i ever do finish a formal proposal in the future defo going to post it here to iron out all the edge cases
03:08:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> a tagged union\
03:08:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `enum` in Nim presently means an ordinal enumerated type
03:08:40FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> So why doesnt `doThing(Shape(..))` compile?
03:09:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> If it does compile that means we now need a new typeclass `NumericEnum`
03:09:32FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> We've conflated `enum` in your present state
03:09:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `union` is a better word in my view
03:10:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I still despise the internally declared types
03:10:48FromDiscord<JJ> what are the current semantics of enums around containing values?
03:11:45FromDiscord<JJ> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5P
03:12:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That and `Four = (4, "This is Four")`
03:12:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> This compiles
03:12:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5Q
03:12:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You've conflated `enum` to be more than a numeric data type
03:13:14FromDiscord<JJ> oh i see, right
03:13:25FromDiscord<JJ> i wasn't aware of the `enum` typeclass
03:14:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5R
03:14:20FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Whoops
03:14:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> One moment
03:14:36FromDiscord<JJ> (actually something similar came up with my stropping-as-case-sensitive proposal too: there's a conflict in a feature of nim i was totally unaware about. still haven't figured that out)
03:14:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There we go that's the sane API
03:14:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5S
03:15:04FromDiscord<JJ> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/qizJx
03:15:11FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It does
03:15:21FromDiscord<JJ> like currently?
03:15:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes
03:15:33FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> And it should continue to compiler
03:15:34FromDiscord<JJ> what on earth why
03:15:36FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> compile even
03:15:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> cause `enum` is a built in type class?
03:16:11FromDiscord<JJ> oh i'm dumb i was thinking it'd take types
03:16:27FromDiscord<JJ> and thinking that'd want a `seq[int]` or smth
03:16:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `typedesc[enum]` is what you thought
03:17:21FromDiscord<JJ> gross taking the literal label of an enum
03:17:22FromDiscord<JJ> hmm
03:17:42FromDiscord<JJ> it doesn't seem very useful, honestly
03:18:11FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well you're wrong
03:18:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://nim-lang.org/docs/json.html#%25_2
03:19:12FromDiscord<JJ> what the fuck
03:19:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://nim-lang.org/docs/typetraits.html#enumLen.m%2Ctypedesc%5B%5D
03:19:29FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Why is this so confusing?
03:19:31FromDiscord<JJ> okay that one seems useful
03:19:40FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> a typeclass across all enums is fantastic
03:20:09FromDiscord<JJ> sure, but it's across one variant of an enum!
03:20:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> "one variant"?
03:20:21FromDiscord<JJ> yeah
03:20:44FromDiscord<JJ> for `%` it's constructing a JsonNode with the label of the variant of the enum that was passed in right
03:20:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's jsonifying the enum
03:21:14FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That might mean string or integer
03:21:15FromDiscord<JJ> enumLen takes a `typedesc[enum]` which i think would remain fine
03:21:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I do not know
03:21:44FromDiscord<JJ> either is pretty gross, i think: that seems much better suited to a macro
03:21:49FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The simple fact is any code that presently expects `enum` to be an numeric type you've now made it so it now has to operate on a union or disable it
03:21:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Why would it be a macro?
03:22:04FromDiscord<JJ> (i say, like i have written more than a single-digit number of macros in my life)
03:22:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> How do you even constrain the macro to only accept enum
03:22:23FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Like the entire point of the typeclass is to restrain the input
03:22:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> A macro doesnt solve anything
03:22:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> "Always use the simplest tool for the job"↵JJ\: "So a macro?"
03:22:51FromDiscord<JJ> i don't think the label of the enum should be accessible by regular code
03:22:53FromDiscord<JJ> lmao
03:23:11FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean this works for `tuple` and `object` and `distinct`
03:23:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's wonderful when you're writing generic interfaces
03:24:07FromDiscord<JJ> i don't think i have an issue with typeclasses for `tuple` and `object` and `distinct` but i'm conceptualizing `enum` as very different
03:24:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's identical
03:24:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's a typeclass across all enums both Ordinal and not
03:26:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5T
03:26:05FromDiscord<JJ> a typeclass for `object` means all objects, a typeclass for `enum` means all enum variants: but i don't think enum variants should exist
03:26:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> What's an enum variant?!
03:26:37FromDiscord<JJ> uh, what do you call one of the enums of an enum type?
03:26:39FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Doesnt use any specific": what do you mean by `specific vector`? 🤔
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03:26:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Enum Field?
03:26:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean that it's bring your own render + vector
03:27:18FromDiscord<sOkam!> vector as in vmath/vec3?
03:27:28FromDiscord<JJ> an instance of an object or a tuple is like a whole thing right
03:27:34FromDiscord<JJ> but an instance of an enum is an enum field
03:27:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Of course sokam
03:27:48FromDiscord<sOkam!> kk. thats dope
03:27:57FromDiscord<JJ> which is, depending on the representation, only a number or only a label
03:28:08FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> "only"
03:28:35FromDiscord<JJ> i mean yeah
03:28:45FromDiscord<JJ> i don't think it's very helpful on its own
03:28:50FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5U
03:29:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well i disagree
03:29:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's symmetric with all other type introducers
03:29:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> No one is complaining "You can use `proc(r: ref)`"
03:29:52FromDiscord<JJ> i don't think it should be though
03:30:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I think you're wrong and we'll never agree
03:30:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> An enum is a specific type and it's good to be able to distinguish it for whatever reason you need
03:31:38FromDiscord<JJ> yeah, but as far as i can think of the reasons you need are scant to none compared to every other type, including objects and refs
03:31:55FromDiscord<JJ> with a ref generic you get a reference: you can like manipulate that and stuff
03:32:29FromDiscord<JJ> with an enum generic you only have the label. the json-ifying case is the only one i can think of
03:32:30FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> 😛
03:32:33FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/bbi6b
03:32:50FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> In fact that's what my dropdown is going to be
03:32:52FromDiscord<JJ> hmm wait what's this doing
03:33:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Constraining the T to be only an enum type
03:33:06FromDiscord<huantian> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/pVIt5
03:33:21FromDiscord<JJ> ah i see
03:33:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I'll probably be using that for making my dropdowns in my GUI
03:33:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Atleast one type
03:34:06FromDiscord<JJ> yeah my general thoughts are that enums as labels are much less useful than enums as type containers
03:34:11FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Another type will take a `seq[string]`
03:34:21FromDiscord<JJ> but i think you've convinced me it'd have to be something separate for nim
03:34:23FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I do not see why you cannot have `union` and `enum`
03:34:31FromDiscord<JJ> yea that's a good idea
03:34:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> A enum is an enumeration a list of values
03:34:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> A union is a overlapping declaration of types
03:35:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Who ever though a union was an enum was a silly willy
03:35:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> two typos in a single sentence i'm making great strides
03:36:08FromDiscord<JJ> coming at it from using them in rust i want to make it as rusty as possible, and i always use enums as labels on containers and nothing else really, but that is better i think
03:36:47FromDiscord<JJ> as long as that `%` operator is representing the label and not the underlying number. if it is i will cry (std/json makes me cry in general though)
03:37:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Conflation of the two types makes metaprogramming harder or more confusing, cause arguably a `union` is closer to `object` than `enum`
03:37:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I think it was using ordinal at one point
03:37:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I do not recall
03:37:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5Y
03:37:47FromDiscord<JJ> hmm, okay, i'm going to find my notes and see how this would actually work
03:38:10FromDiscord<JJ> that would then clear up some other semantics issues i was having iirc
03:38:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Probably, I still do not get why my syntax is so abhorrent
03:38:27FromDiscord<JJ> maybe it's actually feasible that'd be cool
03:39:12FromDiscord<JJ> fungus? if i understood it right it'd be less powerful than this
03:39:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Nope
03:39:27FromDiscord<JJ> much more so than variant objects currently ofc
03:39:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> This
03:39:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w5S
03:39:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It doesnt use `=` to confuse with the new defaults syntax
03:40:14FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It doesnt do anything odd, it's fairly concise
03:40:30FromDiscord<JJ> oh no that's nice
03:41:42FromDiscord<JJ> wait but, are you allowed to do nested objects and enums
03:41:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Nested?
03:42:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Suggesting nested type defs is a surefire way of getting any RFC declined
03:42:56FromDiscord<JJ> In reply to @apropos "hmm looks like the": was the `sides = enum` line a thing you had a problem with in this one?
03:43:09FromDiscord<JJ> looking at yours ig it wouldn't be needed at all
03:43:13FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Was the entire usage of `enum` for a union
03:43:20FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> And also `sides =`
03:43:30FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> In nim 2.0 `=` will be valid inside typedefs
03:44:06FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w60
03:44:16FromDiscord<JJ> yea i like your syntax much more i think
03:44:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Good cause it doesnt conflate anything and is practically fungus
03:45:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I know Zig and friends like the idea of declaring anonymous types, but I feel that it's a very odd thing
03:46:28FromDiscord<JJ> i originally wrote this for something where `:` is always used as a type declaration, and also inheritance and aliasing, so you have `type Foo: Bar` instead of `type Foo = Bar` and `type Foo: object` instead of `type Foo = object`
03:46:57FromDiscord<JJ> but yea putting them nested like that doesn't work with nim currently and is also ugly lol
03:47:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yea that's a big old breaking change that'd never be passed 😄
03:47:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The nice thing about the current OOP is it's also symetric
03:47:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I know C loves that 😛
03:47:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `if x of MyParent` is the same as you declare it
03:47:53FromDiscord<JJ> i never use it lol
03:48:28FromDiscord<JJ> i had a use case for it once, but just copy-pasted instead because it was not much duplication
03:48:52FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I use it for my GUI cause there is not much better to copy fields 😄
03:49:01FromDiscord<JJ> i rarely find myself reaching for oop methods outside of oop languages
03:49:14FromDiscord<JJ> yeah, gui is definitely one thing that oop is great at
03:49:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I'm not even really using any runtime polymorphism
03:49:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Just for field copying
03:50:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Everything is statically dispatched, I just want that `ref` so I can create closures
03:50:46FromDiscord<JJ> oh huh
03:51:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Is valid for instance
03:51:29FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/bIrXa
03:51:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> This is inside a tuple, not a sequence
03:52:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> simplescreenrecorder-2023-05-17\_21.51.56.mp4 https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1108602930958979122/simplescreenrecorder-2023-05-17_21.51.56.mp4
03:52:23FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Just for the showcase of what's going on
03:52:48FromDiscord<JJ> oh actually beef are you familiar with template identifier concatenation?
03:53:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes
03:53:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's technically not unique to templates
03:53:29FromDiscord<JJ> i'm not very experienced with templates but that's the thing blocking the literal stropping rfc
03:54:20FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Inside accquotes(what the compiler calls stropping) each identifier is looked up
03:54:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well not looked up but yea
03:54:51FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Each identifier is unique lexical stropping creates an array of identifiers
03:55:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That with a comma after "unique"
03:55:33FromDiscord<JJ> okay, so is `'foo'` useless? (pretend the quotes are backticks)
03:55:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's not useless
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03:56:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> cause `var \`var\` = 300\` is valid
03:56:13FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You're kidding me
03:56:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w66
03:56:47FromDiscord<JJ> ah, yes, good
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03:56:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> This is moot point
03:57:23FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w67
03:57:25FromDiscord<JJ> the tl;dr of my rfc is an extension of that but i was worried template identifier concatenation would cause issues
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03:59:16FromDiscord<JJ> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w68
03:59:21FromDiscord<JJ> (edit)
03:59:40FromDiscord<JJ> for use in C ffi: particularly the goddamn keyboard interface libraries
04:00:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Ugh
04:00:40FromDiscord<huantian> your Nim function doesn’t need to have the same name as the c function tho right?
04:00:43FromDiscord<JJ> haxstramper brought up that stropping is also used for template identifier concatenation: i didn't (still don't, actually) know enough about templates to know if that would be an issue
04:01:00FromDiscord<JJ> In reply to @huantian "your Nim function doesn’t": yes: but this makes c ffi harder
04:01:04FromDiscord<JJ> lemmie grab an example
04:01:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It likely wouldnt be an issue
04:01:14FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Just replace underscores with a unicode character
04:01:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Problem solved
04:01:23FromDiscord<JJ> case is the bigger problem
04:01:55FromDiscord<JJ> https://github.com/j-james/nim-xkbcommon/blob/main/src/xkb/keysyms.nim#L575
04:02:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean pmunch has resolved this
04:02:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I do not know if supporting bad code is a good idea
04:02:27FromDiscord<JJ> sure, it'd just be a small quality of life improvement for when you write manual wrappers
04:02:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> But we've probably heard enough of what i think
04:02:44FromDiscord<JJ> well it's not really about that
04:02:50FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It is really
04:03:06FromDiscord<JJ> i would argue most c libraries are bad code because i think c is kind of a bad language
04:03:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> If the case or underscores are important you're trying to support bad code
04:03:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> No one will dispute that having two longnames with casing as the only difference as bad code 😛
04:04:08FromDiscord<JJ> yeah no i agree that it's bad code: this would make it easier to make good code on top of it
04:04:27FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I do not know how really
04:04:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's no different than appending a number or unicode character to the end
04:05:38FromDiscord<JJ> essentially i imagine for high-quality c wrappers you have private 1:1 imported functions from the c library, and the idiomatic nim functions you export call them as needed
04:05:43FromDiscord<JJ> In reply to @Elegantbeef "It's no different than": i agree
04:06:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Just imagine if we used pascal instead of C we'd be in a star trek future
04:07:08FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It had full insensitivity and modules!
04:07:10FromDiscord<JJ> god
04:07:41FromDiscord<JJ> the more i learn about c the more i dislike it (i thought it would be the opposite)
04:08:08FromDiscord<JJ> in my ideal world c is a read-only language as the output of disassemblers and used nowhere else
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04:11:17FromDiscord<JJ> oh beef i found a better (worse) example
04:11:18FromDiscord<JJ> https://github.com/j-james/nim-xkbcommon/blob/main/src/xkb/keysyms.nim#L489
04:11:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Oh i remember how bad it can be
04:11:34FromDiscord<JJ> `XKB_KEY_C_h_cap_underscore_nocap` rofl
04:14:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's not like a unicode character is any less informative than that, C supports utf8 identifiers iirc, time to get to town making PRs!
04:15:33FromDiscord<JJ> blurgh
04:16:07FromDiscord<JJ> beef, to clarify, how would `'a b'` work inside a template? (with single quotes as backticks)
04:16:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> the same it works everywhere `a` and `b` are different identfiers, if either are a template paramter it's pasted there
04:17:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6a
04:17:37FromDiscord<JJ> ah okay i found the manual section
04:17:38FromDiscord<JJ> ty
04:18:42FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> sent a long message, see http://ix.io/4w6b
04:19:24FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> (edit) "http://ix.io/4w6b" => "http://ix.io/4w6c"
04:22:18FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> Seems to me Nim could be called a functional language in the same sense that a kangaroo is a horse if you hung a sign around its neck with the word "horse" written on it. 🤪
04:22:36FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> (edit) "is" => "could be called"
04:22:56FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You hang the sign and hope no one knows anything about biology
04:46:23FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> hmm, no Nim example-code for HOFs in wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_function
04:49:27FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Hood no one should use sequtils 😛
04:49:29FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Good even
04:50:29FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> perf bomb?
04:50:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Since they return a sequence and are not lazily evaluated each call allocates a sequence so chaining is bad
04:50:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Really bad
04:52:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There is a slightly hacky PR in devel that I made that allows chaining of iterators with 0 cost
04:53:27FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> Ah, right. For procs with small inputs (and I mean written with expectation that inputs are always small), seems like sequtils should be okay for the convenience, no?
04:53:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Sure if you're not anally retentive it's fine
04:56:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://github.com/beef331/slicerator/blob/itermacros/tests/titermacros.nim#L25 for instance
04:56:29FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> This is the same as the manually written loop mostly
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04:57:30FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @Elegantbeef "There is a slightly": nice!
05:01:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> If interested this is the closest Nim has had to good pluggable iterator operations https://github.com/beef331/slicerator/blob/itermacros/src/itermacros.nim
05:01:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Simple macro but easy to use code
05:04:12FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> thanks for link, definitely interested
05:05:55FromDiscord<voidwalker> what is the difference vs https://github.com/zero-functional/zero-functional ?
05:06:32FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It doesnt use an abhorrent syntax
05:08:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It also doesnt use macros outside from the defining operations
05:08:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> And that macro is practically just a thunk generator
05:09:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6h
05:09:30FromDiscord<voidwalker> btw is it possible to access/cast a single byte from an multi byte integer without using copymem ?
05:09:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's possible but aliasing is fun
05:10:08FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Generally it's suggest to use bitwise operators for what you're doing
05:10:43FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> isn't there something in nim-stew that helps with that
05:11:02FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> I might be thinking of something else...
05:11:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> No clue
05:11:04FromDiscord<voidwalker> I was trying to see if I can beat the countBits64 operation speed in nim by using a const count table for each individual byte
05:11:34FromDiscord<voidwalker> I got about 7% or so faster using copymem in individual vars
05:13:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's a single line to extract a byte from an int, so you'll love it void!
05:13:14FromDiscord<voidwalker> but I don't think it can be made faster than that, casting an individual byte still has to be copies somewhere
05:13:27FromDiscord<voidwalker> (edit) "copies" => "copied"
05:13:32FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You're likely copying anway
05:13:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> anyway
05:29:00FromDiscord<voidwalker> any ways to check if a variable is on the stack or heap ?
05:35:38FromDiscord<Rika> If it’s not within a ref it’s on the stack
05:35:52FromDiscord<sOkam!> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6k
05:36:25FromDiscord<Rika> upload[T: not seq](... ↵For the first one
05:36:33FromDiscord<voidwalker> https://github.com/bpr/vla/blob/master/src/vla.nim this uses alloca which is supposed to be on the stack, I just wanted to make sure
05:36:40FromDiscord<sOkam!> ty rika
05:37:09FromDiscord<voidwalker> T: not seq ? nice
05:37:23FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I'm scared you're writing an upload proc sokam 😄
05:38:06FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That's what I called my proc that handles the conversion of a ui to it's destination
05:38:50FromDiscord<sOkam!> its referring to `upload this data buffer to the GPU vram`
05:40:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Flashbacks to fighting generics
05:40:45FromDiscord<sOkam!> tru. they were so unintuitive to learn 😄
05:40:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean it's not even to learn
05:41:11FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Just today i was fighting Nim's generic resolution
05:41:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Since all my code is generic it really was a battle to make it work
05:41:39FromDiscord<sOkam!> ah yeah, makes senses
05:46:53Amun-Ravoidwalker: yes, alloca allocates bytes in the stack frame
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06:24:29FromDiscord<Dudugz> ``Error: 'args' is of type <varargs[string]> which cannot be captured as it would violate memory safety``↵trying to use ``varargs[string, `$`]`` but i think i can't with threads:on
06:28:06FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That's not the reason
06:28:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You're trying to use varargs with a closure
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06:34:33FromDiscord<Dudugz> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6r
06:34:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> How are you using foo?
06:34:52FromDiscord<Dudugz> calling it directly?
06:34:58FromDiscord<Dudugz> foo(1, false, "blah")
06:35:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Is foo inside a `async` proc?
06:35:22FromDiscord<Dudugz> yup
06:35:29FromDiscord<Dudugz> is this a issue?
06:35:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yep
06:35:38FromDiscord<Dudugz> ;-;
06:36:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Async procs are closures
06:36:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `varargs` cannot exist inside a closure cause it can point to memory that is freed
06:36:27FromDiscord<Dudugz> hm
06:36:35FromDiscord<Dudugz> well the way then is to use seq[string]
06:40:35FromDiscord<Ras> how much overhead does a cast usually incur? Should I worry about very heavily casting a `string` to `seq[uint8]` and vice versa?
06:40:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Cast has 0 cost
06:40:54FromDiscord<Ras> excellent, thank you
06:40:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> But you shouldnt cast between types like that
06:40:58FromDiscord<Ras> oh
06:41:37FromDiscord<Ras> why not?
06:41:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> there is a `toOpenArrayByte` for string, so write a proc that takes a `openArray[uint8]`
06:41:52FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Aimlessly casting around is not how a type system works
06:42:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Cast is a bitwise cast and is the wrong way around 99% of issues
06:42:20FromDiscord<Ras> well, it's pretty deliberate :D but i see what you mean
06:42:26FromDiscord<Ras> thanks for the openArray hint
06:42:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Unless you need to mutate the size always prefer `openArray`
06:43:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's what other languages call a slice
06:43:20FromDiscord<Ras> super, thanks
06:48:46FromDiscord<JJ> finished the adt portion of the rfc [@Elegantbeef](https://matrix.to/#/%40elegantbeef%3Amatrix.org)
06:48:47FromDiscord<JJ> nim-adts.md https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1108647352237035530/nim-adts.md
06:48:58FromDiscord<JJ> now it&#x27;s on to `match`
06:58:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Already lost me quit calling them enums! 😛
07:00:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `shape = Point()` should be how it's done
07:01:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `shape = Point` should be invalid cause `Point` should be a type
07:01:19FromDiscord<JJ> haha, don't worry i went with `union`
07:01:25FromDiscord<JJ> good idea
07:01:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I also do not think types should be comma seperated
07:02:18FromDiscord<JJ> for the `Empty, Error, Unit...` line?
07:02:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Also `Function: tuple[from, to: Type]` cannot compile
07:02:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yea
07:02:58FromDiscord<JJ> what's wrong with `Function`
07:03:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> A type contains a type that is not indirected
07:03:48FromDiscord<JJ> oh yea right
07:04:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Actually I dont know about `A, B, C`
07:04:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Just that it invites `A, B, C: tuple[x, y: int]`
07:05:00FromDiscord<JJ> hmm, `ref union` wouldn't be great here
07:05:14FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You only need the ref on the interal no?
07:05:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> internal\
07:05:40FromDiscord<JJ> yeah, i'm unsure of how to represent it syntactically
07:05:41FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6u
07:05:52FromDiscord<JJ> is `to: ref Type` consistent?
07:06:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `ref union` is fine imo
07:06:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Did you even look at my examples?!
07:07:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6v
07:07:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> One thing you do not mention is that each entry of the union emits a type
07:07:42FromDiscord<JJ> in fungus? or did i miss them earlier oh no
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07:07:50FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes in fungus
07:08:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> In nim you can put `ref` before anything and it creates a ref of that type
07:08:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's that simple
07:08:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6w
07:08:48FromDiscord<JJ> how did i not know this??
07:09:14FromDiscord<JJ> for some reason i thought there was a deliberate design decision to only allow it as a distinction between objects and ref objects
07:09:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6x
07:09:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Nope
07:09:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It'd be consistent to allow `ref union` in the type def
07:10:36FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You also do not mention that a tupleless Union branch is implicitly converted to the base type
07:10:40FromDiscord<JJ> also re: fungus i'll be looking at it and patty closely (and rust match) for `match` but do you know of others to check out
07:10:49FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> But this is really just fungus
07:11:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Eh patty emits a object variant
07:11:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Probably biased, but it doesnt help that much
07:11:49FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You're basically suggesting bringing fungus to Nim, so study its semantics 😄
07:12:09FromDiscord<JJ> haha, the closer i look, the more that's true
07:12:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `--expandMacro:adtEnum`
07:13:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6y
07:13:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The only thing fungus is probably really lacking is pattern matching
07:13:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That and the object construction
07:14:08Amun-Raare const objects passed to functions as pointers?
07:15:06FromDiscord<JJ> hmm i've got some stuff i could rewrite in fungus to get a feel for it
07:15:11FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I think they might be, hard to say
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07:15:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well looking at my examples compiled with `--expandMacros:adtEnum` would help you understand what it does
07:16:45FromDiscord<JJ> oh also re: commas and newlines for `union`s, the idea was that because they're a blend of object and enum semantics they should have a blend of object and enum syntax
07:17:15FromDiscord<JJ> or functionally something like the Type example is bound to come up a lot
07:17:30FromDiscord<JJ> perhaps it'd be better to stick with only commas though
07:20:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well it does invite `A, B: T`
07:20:29FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I guess that's fine
07:20:50FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Commas are probably fine there
07:20:57FromDiscord<JJ> yeah, that's a bit misleading
07:21:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well I do not think it's that misleading
07:21:36FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> A and B would be type T just distinct variations of the same branch
07:22:03Amun-RaI guess large objects that do not fit in a few registers are passed inside as pointers, https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6z
07:22:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Easier to look at the C compiled with `--mm:arc -d:danger` 😛
07:22:41Amun-Raright :)
07:23:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> In Nim that object would be passed by ref eitherway
07:23:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Anything larger than 24bytes is passed by ref as far as i know
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07:23:56FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Hence `{.byref.}` and `{.bycopy.}` existing for interop
07:24:09FromDiscord<JJ> with union construction, i'm unsure how viable it is without polluting the global namespace
07:24:15FromDiscord<JJ> that is probably a problem for later though
07:24:27FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> This is Nim there is no polluting global namespace
07:24:30Amun-Rahmm
07:24:53FromDiscord<JJ> that's actually so true you're right
07:25:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Each union branch is a type
07:25:22FromDiscord<JJ> oh, no, i guess it still is a problem if these are used similarly to overloadable enums
07:25:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> No it's not
07:25:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I already gave you the solution earlier
07:25:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Scroll up to my three `doThing`s
07:26:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> In the case of ambiguity you can disambiguate with the Union's type
07:26:36FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Otherwise you can disambiguate with the module
07:26:51FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Since a union like this is nothing more than a set of types
07:27:13FromDiscord<JJ> dur yeah
07:27:15FromDiscord<JJ> i need slep
07:27:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> And to read my messages
07:27:24FromDiscord<JJ> (edit) "slep" => "sleep"
07:27:33FromDiscord<JJ> rofl yeah
07:28:28FromDiscord<JJ> well tomorrow i will read through swift and haxe's pattern matching, make sure i'm not missing anything about rust's and racket's, and closely inspect your fungus
07:28:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Get really in there it's stuck on the big toe
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07:39:31FromDiscord<Dudugz> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6C
07:40:05FromDiscord<huantian> no i don't think so?
07:40:17FromDiscord<Dudugz> :/
07:40:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Just write your own `get` that is a generic
07:41:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6E
07:41:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Put an `=` in there
07:41:26FromDiscord<Dudugz> I tried but got error saying getInt(node, 0) is of type int and expected string, in case compilation error.
07:43:03FromDiscord<Dudugz> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6F
07:43:12FromDiscord<huantian> `when` not `if`
07:43:22FromDiscord<Dudugz> Oh :>
07:44:49FromDiscord<huantian> If you don’t like the colon generic syntax you can have it take a typedec[T]
07:46:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w6G
07:46:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> We did it!
07:46:56FromDiscord<huantian> Honestly I don’t know if I like get, I feel like as makes more sense
07:47:05FromDiscord<huantian> But that’s irrelevant
07:47:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yea it does
07:47:13FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> it's also cooler
07:47:24FromDiscord<Dudugz> Hm
07:47:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `name = bleh["name" as string` chef kiss
07:47:52FromDiscord<Dudugz> Agreed :v
07:48:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well implement it
07:49:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I'd say implement `as` and `to` or similar so you can chain
07:49:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `(bleh[..] as int).other()` is worse than `bleh[..].to(int).other()`
07:50:59FromDiscord<Dudugz> Hm yea, but you can bleh[..].as(int).other()
07:51:06FromDiscord<Dudugz> It's just not idiomatic i think
07:51:34FromDiscord<Dudugz> (edit) "bleh[..].as(int).other()" => "``bleh[..].as(int).other()``"
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07:59:12FromDiscord<Dudugz> :3 https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1108665074727534614/image.png
07:59:17FromDiscord<Dudugz> so much better
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09:17:31FromDiscord<sOkam!> what effect does `-d:useRealtimeGC` have on `arc/orc`?
09:17:48FromDiscord<sOkam!> does it do anything, or is it for the older gcs only?
09:19:30FromDiscord<Rika> I believe there is no effect for ARC
09:20:18FromDiscord<sOkam!> ic
09:20:28FromDiscord<sOkam!> does it affect orc, though?
09:26:34FromDiscord<Bung> am looking at chronos, when I use devel it doesn't need import posix, but when I switched to 1.6.0 it error about undeclared `sigprocmask` as it's defined in posix.
09:27:49FromDiscord<Bung> why this happen?
09:32:18FromDiscord<voidwalker> Any way to get the inner representation of whatever data a typeclass holds ?
09:33:56FromDiscord<sOkam!> @voidwalker you mean something like : https://nim-lang.org/docs/typetraits.html ?
09:36:14FromDiscord<voidwalker> I don't know, do I ? What can I use from there to see how a typeclass I define is actually.. represented in nim
09:36:34FromDiscord<voidwalker> Asking cause I don't really understand them, I'd like to get an idea
09:37:03FromDiscord<Rika> i dont understand, typeclass means typedef?
09:37:06FromDiscord<Rika> (edit) "typedef?" => "typedesc?"
09:38:59FromDiscord<voidwalker> I don't suppose there's a typeclass to string proc, so I guess something that outputs.. its ast node structure ? idk
09:39:44FromDiscord<sOkam!> by typeclass you mean `typedesc`?
09:40:09FromDiscord<Rika> typeclass is not a word commonly used in nim so i ask you, what you mean by that
09:40:12FromDiscord<Rika> (edit) "typeclass is not a word commonly used in nim so i ask you, what ... you" added "do"
09:41:22FromDiscord<voidwalker> `A type class is a special pseudo-type that can be used to match against types in the context of overload resolution or the is operator. Nim supports the following built-in type classes:`
09:42:58FromDiscord<Rika> OH those okay
09:43:14FromDiscord<Rika> but youre using it incorrectly
09:43:50FromDiscord<Rika> i mean, you use the word incorrectly
09:44:09FromDiscord<sOkam!> i think the word for it would be typedesc, since all "super types" match with the base typedesc if using `is` etc
09:44:12FromDiscord<Rika> typeclasses cannot be represented in nim because theyre not real types
09:44:29FromDiscord<Rika> it says in the text you sent that theyre "pseudo-types"
09:44:56FromDiscord<demotomohiro> In reply to @voidwalker "Any way to get": You probably need to read Nim source code if you want to know how type classes represented in Nim compiler at compile time.
09:45:16FromDiscord<sOkam!> in any case, `std/typetraits` is probably what you need, unless some functionality is not there
09:47:09FromDiscord<voidwalker> I just want a high quality introduction to generics and all the relevant stuff around them.
09:48:22FromDiscord<voidwalker> So I actually understand what happens instead of trying out various code until it compiles, and then until it works : P
09:49:25FromDiscord<sOkam!> maybe printing the ast of the type could be useful in that case
09:49:35FromDiscord<voidwalker> ok, how do you do that
09:49:39FromDiscord<sOkam!> there is functionality for that in `std/macros`
09:49:42FromDiscord<jmgomez> you can see typeclasses as constraints to generics
09:50:59FromDiscord<sOkam!> In reply to @voidwalker "ok, how do you": probably a start. but there might be something in there more useful. don't know the topic beyond this function https://nim-lang.org/docs/macros.html#dumpAstGen.m%2Cuntyped
09:52:33FromDiscord<jmgomez> TBH I dont see how that's gonna help you understand typeclasses
09:53:32FromDiscord<Rika> i dont even understand what you need help with
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09:59:08FromDiscord<voidwalker> I guess I forgot to read this: https://ssalewski.de/nimprogramming.html#_generics
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10:08:56FromDiscord<sOkam!> oh i didn't know about that tutorial. yeah, thats pretty much all there is to them on a practical level↵added to bookmarks, to be able to reference it. didn't know it exists, but that's a good one
10:25:45om3gaAmun-Ra: under MacOs all is the same: https://i.imgur.com/FFZxBHT.png
10:26:33om3gaOr maybe I misunderstand something, but should the total number of bytes be the same as residual ram?
10:28:28FromDiscord<Rika> heap usage isnt all usage
10:28:38FromDiscord<Rika> there's still stack and code no?
10:28:53FromDiscord<Rika> let me see what residual really means because i forgot
10:29:11om3gaI put the sleep there, to see leftovers
10:29:45om3gaRika: residual means the amount of ram actually used by process
10:30:00FromDiscord<Rika> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w75
10:30:49FromDiscord<Rika> residual -> resident i can read i swear
10:31:07om3ga:)
10:31:53om3gafor some reason playground not opening here
10:32:56om3gaError code 504
10:33:00FromDiscord<Rika> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/Svqci
10:33:03FromDiscord<Rika> but it includes stack
10:34:13om3gayeah, but max stack size as I remember is 100meg
10:34:17om3ganot the 1.8GB
10:34:38FromDiscord<Rika> ah i think i remember
10:34:47FromDiscord<Rika> nim gc frees memory as in marks it as free
10:34:51FromDiscord<Rika> but does not return it to the os
10:34:59FromDiscord<Rika> not until program execution finishes
10:35:32FromDiscord<Rika> i think if the os is feeling memory pressure then nim does free it back to the os but i dont actually know if thats true
10:35:42om3gathat's really what I want to avoid
10:36:11om3gaI use malloc, so it's not about how nim's alloc works
10:36:43om3galooks loke memory manager holds that allocations
10:36:45om3ga*like
10:37:35om3gamemory manager -> GC
10:38:32om3gaIs there any function that can force gc to free all that allocs?
10:39:11om3gaI tried to find by myself, but failed to do so
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10:41:45om3ga`=destroy`() frees, but at termination step the program segfaults
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11:42:37Amun-Raom3ga: what was the value of shared memory? RES includes SHR
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12:36:47NimEventerNew post on r/nim by Uwu_Uwu135: How to detect and even save key presses, see https://reddit.com/r/nim/comments/13kxxxo/how_to_detect_and_even_save_key_presses/
13:12:38FromDiscord<Bung> any clue https://github.com/bung87/scorper/blob/devel/tests/trouter.nim get stucked at last case with `gc:arc` and `gc:orc`
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14:36:39arkanoidI've just glanced into the world of hardware design, and I find potential for nim in there
14:50:07FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Some time ago - I started writing an HDL in Nim as a DSL'
14:50:07FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> That was two years ago
14:51:46FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Anyways, I seem to vaguely remember being able to collect values into a Seq in NIm inside a block
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14:55:43FromDiscord<typist🎯> nim defaults to c as the backend and typically adds GC, I like python so I'm comfortable with nim's syntax, meanwhile I need an "easier" C for bare metal, question is, is nim a good fit? I'm comparing nim with zig now, zig seems more close to the hardware, it's really a 'better' C for embedded systems and such. is nim for general c coding that size is not a big concern? both seems better than C but nim seems "larger" to me
15:01:26FromDiscord<Chronos [She/Her]> In reply to @typist🎯 "nim defaults to c": For memory management, there is `arc`?
15:02:03FromDiscord<Chronos [She/Her]> Alternative memory management system, not a GC, it basically inserts destructor calls on an object when it's no longer being used (from what I understand)
15:02:15FromDiscord<Chronos [She/Her]> I haven't used Zig so I can't comment on that really
15:02:30FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @typist🎯 "nim defaults to c": wdym by size?
15:02:51FromDiscord<Rika> also nim is embedded capable yes, relatively well suitd
15:02:51FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> Am I hallucinating?
15:02:52FromDiscord<Rika> (edit) "suitd" => "suited"
15:03:06FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0 "Am I hallucinating?": no, sugar.collect?
15:05:03FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> yeah - that's it
15:05:04FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> thx
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15:21:03FromDiscord<demotomohiro> In reply to @typist🎯 "nim defaults to c": There is #embedded channel for embedded/bare metal programming.
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16:28:25FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> I'd consider the following behavior in Nim surprising...
16:28:29FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> sent a long message, see http://ix.io/4w8u
16:29:07FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> oh
16:29:07FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> https://nim-lang.org/docs/strformat.html#nimfmt-vsdot-nimamp
16:29:11FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> mentioned right here
16:29:38FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> It'd make more sense if there was a `fmt` and `rfmt`
16:30:50FromDiscord<Rika> `fmt` is like that because it uses an alphanumeric name
16:31:07FromDiscord<Rika> changing it to `fmt`/`rfmt` would have the same problem
16:31:13FromDiscord<Rika> it is simply how nim was designed
16:31:23FromDiscord<Rika> if you want a hack, you can add a space and itll work normally
16:31:29FromDiscord<Rika> `fmt "xxx \n"`
16:31:42FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> ...
16:32:29FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> I'm starting to remember why I left for Haskell
16:33:21FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> but I guess for this particular project - I needed executables that were only KB in size
16:33:37FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> So Nim,C, or Zig were the only choices
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16:34:25FromDiscord<Rika> i feel you'd be especially peeved by zig due to its design decisions
16:36:01FromDiscord<@theperfectcomputer-628303036da0> yeah - prolly
16:42:30FromDiscord<Nerve> `echo &"hello \n"` should do what you expect
16:44:25FromDiscord<Rika> yes it was implied
16:49:55om3gaAmun-Ra: shared was not used there
16:50:46om3gaAmun-Ra: all the data should be in heap, it's ref type objects mostly and seq[char]
16:51:09om3gaseq[seq[char] also
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17:24:48FromDiscord<jmgomez> In reply to @Nerve "`echo &"hello \n"` should": Better switching to Haskell 😛
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18:07:37NimEventerNew post on r/nim by crevicepounder3000: How to write JsonNode to a json file?, see https://reddit.com/r/nim/comments/13l65ge/how_to_write_jsonnode_to_a_json_file/
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18:31:17FromDiscord<JJ> In reply to @typist🎯 "nim defaults to c": re: embedded, the usual recommended library is https://github.com/PMunch/ratel
18:36:15FromDiscord<JJ> nim is larger than zig or c: some objects that the compiler cannot infer the lifetimes of will be reference counted, so an extra byte attached to an object and an extra few cycles every time it is referenced. but these often are elided, and in exchange you have memory safety
18:37:17FromDiscord<JJ> and you can always turn off arc and manually manage pointers c-style though it's not recommended unless you're byte-golfing (and even then)
18:37:27om3gaexecutables are kilobytes in size only when not compiled statically
18:39:02om3gawhen compiler includes all used functions in executable file, with all the code of used functions the exe can be hundreds of kilobytes or even megabytes
18:40:43FromDiscord<JJ> oh, the stdlib can also be large - i know you can compile without it but i'm unsure why that's an option if the compiler only compiles in functions it needs
18:46:15om3gait definitely includes not the whole libc in it
18:46:45om3gabut it depends on what used in the code, some std functions use a lot other stuff inside
18:47:38om3gaalso there are some functions that cannot be compiled statically, for example getline() in C
18:48:21om3gafor that reason I coded my own getline
18:57:30FromDiscord<System64 ~ Flandre Scarlet> Did someone already created a context menu on ImGUI with Nim?↵If yes, how?↵Thanks for your answer
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20:05:22FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @System64 "Did someone already created": it shouldn't be any different than how you'd do it in C
20:05:23FromDiscord<demotomohiro> In reply to @System64 "Did someone already created": Doesn't imgui have any documentation about how do it?↵https://github.com/ocornut/imgui
20:05:41FromDiscord<Gumbercules> it's probably going to be easier to find an example of whatever you're trying to do, written in C/C++, and then port that to Nim
20:06:03FromDiscord<Gumbercules> this goes for all computer graphics related stuff, if you don't feel like digging into documentation / manuals
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20:20:18NimEventerNew thread by jojocoding: Get cursor position in terminal, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10204
20:36:16FromDiscord<System64 ~ Flandre Scarlet> In reply to @demotomohiro "Doesn't imgui have any": I found out why it didn't work, I missused it
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21:29:26NimEventerNew Nimble package! nmostr - Library for Nostr: a simple, open protocol enabling censorship-resistant social media., see https://github.com/Gruruya/nmostr
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22:30:51FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> Is there a way to unset an array? Would be nice if there was an unset proc for vars/arrays
22:31:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You mean `reset`?
22:31:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> "unset"
22:31:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That works on all datatypes
22:31:28FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> Well empty the array
22:31:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Arrays can never be empty
22:31:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> They're static size
22:32:08FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> What if I empty each value?
22:32:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> What do you mean by empty?
22:32:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> If you mean to zero that's what `reset` is for
22:32:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w9B
22:33:48FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> Well to unset a string i've been using strVar = "", so I was thinking I could just do the same, a space would work in my case but I can work with 0's
22:34:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `reset myString`
22:34:10FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> Ty
22:34:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `reset` 'unset's values
22:34:40FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> But remember that `= ""` deallocates the previous string
22:34:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Same with `reset`
22:35:39FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> It's the only way I could find to nil the variable. Reset would be easier though
22:36:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `setLen` allows you to reuse memory if you're of that dispostion
22:37:47FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> It's just for a TUI file manager. It's pretty basic but I have to clear the files array each time I change directories. I tried overwriting the values but it didn't seem to work
22:40:01FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> `reset` says it's immutable even though it's defined as var. Maybe it's due to using `seq`
22:41:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> How are you using it?
22:42:48FromDiscord<BoomBang> I have a large problem
22:46:15FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4w9C
22:46:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It'd set it to `@[]` every time you call `getFIles`
22:47:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There is no reason to do `@[]` as it's a local variable
22:47:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `var files: seq[string]` is the same and it will get cleared everytime it `getFiles` is called since it's a local variable
22:47:59FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> Well the files var is also returned from that proc and is passed to two other procs
22:50:29FromDiscord<Andreas> In reply to @wick3dr0se "Well the files var": how about simply using the `result`-return ?
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22:54:03FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> I haven't really messed with that yet but it may be a better solution. I'm still learning a lot and I'm too used to writing bash but I can put it on GitHub real quick if anyone wants to check it out
22:56:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> If you do not do `var a = getFiles(...); a.doThing()` you will not be able to reset it
22:57:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> the parameter has to be passed as `var` to another proc
22:59:32FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> That's how I'm trying to. I just uploaded it and I put a single comment where I'm trying to overwrite the array. It's just 54 LOC https://github.com/wick3dr0se/fml-nim
23:00:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `files: var seq[string]`
23:05:48FromDiscord<Andreas> In reply to @Elegantbeef "`files: var seq[string]`": ? really ? where happens the mutation on `seq[string]` ?
23:13:47FromDiscord<wick3dr0se> I could only get `files = getFiles("")` to work but that's what I needed! Thought I would've tried that by now
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23:42:53FromDiscord<turtlebasket> With nim macros, is there any standard way to just do the typical lisp quasiquoting stuff without any additional syntactic complexity?