<< 18-10-2013 >>
00:00:10Varriountfowl, or isNil[TPerson](personA)
00:02:47fowlhuh?
00:02:59VarriountOr maybe not.
00:03:52VarriountStop staring at me! I'm not crazy! Y-You're the one's w-who are crazy!!! *runs away sobbing*
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03:30:23VarriountSo, I get that Nimrod allows you to explicitly pass procedure arguments as either references or copies, but what does Nimrod do if you don't explicitly specify?
03:31:02Varriount*specify whether to pass by reference or by copy
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03:50:25OrionPKVarriount by value
03:50:42OrionPKunless it's a ref type
03:50:50VarriountSo, a copy?
03:50:53OrionPKyes
03:51:24VarriountAh, ok. You wouldn't also happen to know the underlying structure/mechanics of the sequence type?
03:51:50OrionPKnope, dont know the particulars of it.. I imagine it's a kind of linked list implementation
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04:55:03VarriountO_o
04:55:27Varriountimporting the ropes package into my code caused the compiler to crash.
04:56:01VarriountAnd not even a sigsev fault or stack trace, a full blown crash the windows has to stop itself.
05:08:33VarriountAraq, according to Windows, the Nimrod compiler crashes with a stack overflow when compiling a script that imports the Ropes package
05:09:45VarriountOr maybe it's just my module >_>
05:17:29VarriountOk, got it now.
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10:24:21shafirehi
10:25:16shafirewhat do you use in nimrod for tests?
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15:12:43dom96shafire: doAssert + when isMainModule or the unittest module.
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15:33:31filwithello
15:33:50dom96hey filwit
15:35:53filwitso, I'm wondering if passing as 'var T' (vs just 'T') has any performance penalties on procs which don't set the parameter
15:36:58dom96what's the point in passing 'var T' if you're not setting the param?
15:37:11filwitmacro generated code
15:37:24dom96ahh.
15:37:37filwitif there's a performance hit, i will make a different way through analysis or something
15:37:46filwitbut if not, then it's less work for me :)
15:37:50dom96I don't think so.
15:38:00filwiti would benchmark, but i haven't gotten that working yet..
15:38:12filwitgunna try C's time.h later, but i don't care atm
15:38:38filwitokay, so thanks dom96
15:40:02filwitbtw dom96, Aporia's suggest features work pretty well in my basic tests
15:40:04filwitnice job
15:40:10filwityou and zahary did that?
15:40:57filwitunfortunately, it doesn't work with my macro stuff :( but i didn't expect it too. I imagine that would be much more complicated
15:41:13dom96Not sure who did it exactly, I haven't changed anything in Aporia yet.
15:41:18dom96(To do with suggest at least)
15:41:38filwithmmm.. interesting..
15:45:31dom96nice to hear that you're still using it
15:46:12filwitwell i'm not really :-\
15:46:16filwiti use Kate mostly
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15:46:33filwiti made a Nimrod color scheme that works nicely
15:46:55filwitand Kate has the "100 mile view" like ...
15:47:07filwiti'm blanking on the name for some reason
15:47:59dom96a mini map?
15:48:08filwityes
15:48:19filwitdamn, that's gunna drive me nuts.
15:48:21filwithaha
15:48:22dom96I'm starting to consider rewriting Aporia in Qt
15:48:31filwitthat would be cool actually :)
15:49:01filwitmake it work better on Ubuntu platforms i think, and I've had better luck with KWin and Catalyst (in terms of performance) than others
15:49:38filwiti have a couple cool idea for Nimrod and Hymn
15:50:45filwitbasically i want to build a game-editor, but, like Unity3D, the code editor would be agnostic, at least in the beginning
15:51:10filwiteventually it would be nice to have text editor tools inside the editor, like Blenders tools
15:51:29filwitand i've seen a lot of Qt applications which seem to be pretty modular
15:51:56filwitKate and KDevelop share some of the same text-editor preferences
15:51:59dom96The only thing that I dislike about Qt is that in my mind its associated with KDE and I dislike KDE.
15:52:19filwityeah, that's how i was too for a long time
15:52:42filwiti still like Gnome's simple design, and it's spins like Cinnamon
15:52:52filwitPantheon looks very nice
15:53:01filwitbut i tried KDE and it worked the best for me
15:53:30filwiti actually enjoy all the features Dolphin has built-in, and I can setup my taskbar how i like it
15:54:02filwitand i really like Kate/KDevelop, i was really surprised how good they where since i'd never heard about them before.
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15:54:33filwithonestly, i hope the LXDE/Razor-Qt team can come up with a simple replacement to KDE
15:54:55filwitcause it is too bloated and ugly by default
15:55:03dom96Wrapping Qt sounds like a lot of work :\
15:55:23filwithaha, well, see, that's the thing..
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15:55:28filwitwas tempted to make my own UI
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15:55:46dom96I'm tempted too.
15:55:47filwitit's an idea my brother and I have had for awhile
15:55:56dom96In fact, I probably will.
15:56:15filwithmm.. well maybe we should work together then
15:56:30dom96sure.
15:56:36filwitthing is, i'm not sure our motives will be entirely the same
15:56:55dom96exhu is already creating a UI in Nimrod.
15:57:02filwitoh really?
15:57:04filwitthat's cool
15:57:05dom96and there is also claro.
15:57:30filwityeah, Nimrod is a great language to write a UI in i think
15:57:39dom96I'm thinking of just embedding webkit in a desktop app and creating a UI using HTML :P
15:57:42filwitcause it's macros just make the syntax clean
15:58:06filwitbleh, i really have a bad taste for web tech right now
15:58:24filwitway too slow
15:59:03dom96perhaps
15:59:04filwitbtw, i played with the new 'type Foo = generic ..' thing
15:59:38dom96oh? what are your thoughts?
15:59:41dom96I still didn't get a chance.
15:59:44filwitthat looks great, but is there any docs hidden somewhere at all yet?
15:59:59dom96there is a forum thread about it
16:00:14filwitthe one on the second page?
16:00:23dom96yeah: http://forum.nimrod-code.org/t/208
16:00:41filwityeah i read through it, that's how i was able to do any tests at all
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16:01:34filwitgenerics look like a cool, much more powerful, replacement to interfaces
16:02:31dom96yeah, I just hope that zahary has enough time to finish them.
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16:05:36filwitbtw, does nimrod-code run off Jester, dom96?
16:05:44dom96nimrod-code.org?
16:05:48dom96no.
16:05:49filwityeah
16:05:56dom96forum/nimbuild does
16:05:57filwitbut the forums do
16:06:02filwitokay
16:06:17filwitwhat are your plans for jester?
16:06:39filwitit looks pretty cool
16:06:46dom96Optimise it as much as possible and release version 0.1
16:07:08filwitwhere does it rate, in terms of performance?
16:07:38dom96It's not great. It doesn't have any support for parallelisation.
16:08:03filwitahh, yeah i see
16:08:13filwitnimrod forums run good though
16:09:17dom96yeah, and I think it hasn't even been compiled in release mode :P
16:10:51filwitlol
16:11:46filwitso i'm pretty excited about something Nimrod makes easy, for a editor/app-engine
16:12:49filwitone thing i've had an idea about in the past, was drag-n-droppable behaviors in an editor (similar to Blender's constraints)
16:14:29filwitbut the problem with that and any other language is how optimized they are to be useful in-game. if you have 5 "adjust position ..." properties on a character, that's 5 virtual calls per character, and that sux
16:15:20filwitbut with nimrod's macros, i can just say "event update: ..." and then you can drag and drop any number of pre-packaged constraints or whatever from an editor
16:15:40filwitand at the end of the day, i have full control over how it gets combined in a sane way
16:17:45filwitnevermind, it's just something I was trying to do in D before, that was giving me much more of a head-ache
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16:18:53dom96so what made you come back to Nimrod?
16:19:55filwithaha, chance
16:20:14filwiti dropped by to talk to Araq, can't remember why
16:20:38filwitand then got the idea i could port my app to Nimrod due to it's JS backend
16:20:40VarriountMeep!
16:20:46VarriountGood morning!
16:21:04filwit(i've no more plans to do that anymore, we've already switched to using Unity3D for it)
16:21:22dom96ahh, how's Unity3D btw?
16:21:27filwitbut it got me investigating Nimrod again, and I didn't realize you could do some of the things you can with macros
16:21:50filwitor rather, i didn't really see how they could fix most of the issues i was having before with Nimrod
16:22:22filwitand.. how clean of syntax they ultimately allow for
16:22:34filwitUnity3D's good
16:22:52filwitit's editor and prefab system make for easy hacking
16:23:04filwitit's one model i'm using for my design
16:23:18dom96I noticed that it grew in popularity over the past year or so.
16:23:39filwitUnity3D is limited in some ways, but you can do most anything you want with a little work
16:23:58filwityeah, it's cause it's just so damn easy to use an editor to wire together stuff
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16:24:28filwitwhen you're dealing with visual stuff i mean
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16:24:45filwithey fowl
16:24:57fowlhi
16:25:06filwitforgot to say hi to Varriount, he left, now i feel like a dick
16:26:06dom96he'll be back, not to worry
16:26:39filwitanyways, dom96, in short, I'm not porting my app over to Nimrod (it was just much more practical to go with Unity3D for many reasons), but I'm now thinking Nimrod is probably the best language to do a game-engine in
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16:27:59filwitit's macros just give me so much control, and the syntax is arguably much better for script-kiddies too
16:28:37fowloh sure filwit , take the easy route
16:28:48filwitlol, fowl
16:29:03fowlthe road more traveled
16:29:18*Varriount prefers to help build roads
16:29:45filwitit wasn't just my decision either. we brought on another developer, and needed to work together with something we both understood wel
16:29:47filwitwell*
16:30:04filwithi, btw, Varriount
16:31:30filwiteither way, my new nimrod project is more exciting to me anyways
16:32:33filwitso i'm honestly kinda glad i don't have to focus on getting Nimrod to play perfect in the web
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16:43:12filwitgtg, later folks
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17:20:58VarriountOk, so, as one who has never used gdb before, how would I go about debugging nimrod?
17:34:18fowlVarriount, my suggestion is dont, backtrace should be enough
17:34:54Varriountfowl, possibly, but not in the case of a stack overflow that doesn't give a backtrace
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17:35:27fowli dont know how to use gdb
17:35:41VarriountThe compiler either crashes completly (Windows has to stop it) or hangs whenever it tries to compile my program.
17:36:10VarriountI've found the code that causes it to hang/crash, however I would like to try and find/fix the bug
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18:10:53AraqVarriount: I think windows shows the dreaded "app crashed" window when a process returns != 0
18:11:17Araqso I think stack traces would work if only windows wouldn't be brain dead
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18:12:16VarriountAraq, I looked at the dump file that windows created
18:12:39VarriountThe error code suggested a stack overflow (though, knowing windows, I might be wrong)
18:13:32VarriountAraq, are there any known bugs involving the use of new()?
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18:18:40Araqno
18:20:59Araqthere is a known corruption with the latest version of nimbuild which I yet have to hunt down
18:21:15Varriount"Corruption"?
18:21:34Araqnimbuild runs the tester and then after some time crashes
18:21:45VarriountThis isn't with nimbuild
18:23:32Araqwell make a bug report, show me a gist etc.
18:23:42AraqI can't guess what's wrong ;-)
18:25:36VarriountAraq, here's the gist of the code -> https://gist.github.com/Varriount/7045833#file-dmp-nim-L73
18:26:18VarriountThat function is the one that causes the crash (found out by taking sections out of the program until it didn't crash)
18:26:43Araqlol that doesn't work :P
18:26:53Varriount?
18:27:11Araqif you have a corruption you can't bisect to get the cause
18:27:32Araqthat's why memory safety is so important
18:28:02VarriountCould you elaborate?
18:29:43Araqcorrupt(); stuffThatAccessesMemory();
18:29:56Araqyou comment out stuffThatAccessesMemory();
18:30:04Araqand say that's where the bug is obviously
18:30:17Araqbut it's wrong, it merely triggered the segfault
18:30:26Araqthe corruption happened in 'corrupt()'
18:30:56Araqline 128 is suspicous
18:31:10Araq result = newSeq[PDiff]() # should be that
18:31:30Araqno idea why it compiles
18:31:40VarriountJust so you know, that program doesn't actually compile - it isn't finished
18:31:54Araqoh alright
18:31:56VarriountIt's nimrod.exe that is crashing
18:31:59Araqit's a compiler crash
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18:32:13Araqwell let's see what I get ...
18:32:44VarriountMaybe it's a case of Linux > Windows
18:33:14AraqI'm on windows don't worry
18:37:30Araqwell I get the same
18:39:37Araqyup, stack overflow
18:40:38VarriountRight now I'm compiling nimrod with -d:useSysAssert and -d:UseGcAssert . And it just finished (after about an hour)
18:44:25Araq:O
18:44:33Araqawesome result! :-)
18:44:44VarriountOh, and I also set CFLAGS to -g
18:44:44Araqthis is a very good stress test
18:44:54Araqwell I'm doing
18:45:01Araqkoch boot --debuginfo --linedir:on
18:45:15Araqgdb nimrod.exe
18:45:20Araqrun c dmp.nim
18:45:20VarriountAraq, it's slooooooow
18:45:53VarriountAnd it crashed.
18:45:56VarriountProgram received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
18:45:56Varriount0x00000000004f3b6d in ?? ()
18:48:35AraqVarriount: that's why I'm showing you how to debug
18:49:17Araqdebugging nimrod is actually quite easy if you know how to do it
18:49:26Araqunfortunately nobody knows :P
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18:50:12VarriountSorry, didn't mean to sound whiny.
18:52:04Araqwell --debuginfo --linedir:on means gdb understands nimrod code
18:52:13Araqso I run the compiler through gdb
18:52:42Araqand gdb tells me there is an infinite recursion in line sigmatch.nim:527
18:53:30Araqnow that means we have some invalid type graph which involves 'ref'
18:54:03Araqbut looking at you dmp datatypes I can't see any illegal type recursion
18:55:19Araqso I make the obvious modification:
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19:01:56Araqvar typeRelCounter: int
19:01:57Araqproc typeRel(c: var TCandidate, f, a: PType): TTypeRelation =
19:01:59Araq if typeRelCounter > 200:
19:02:00Araq debug(f)
19:02:02Araq debug(a)
19:02:03Araq assert false
19:02:05Araq inc typeRelCounter
19:02:20Araqand then set typeRelCounter before any important invokation of typeRel
19:02:27Araq*set typeRelCounter to 0
19:02:38Araqwhere "important" means "non-recursive"
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19:04:57dom96looks like a hacky fix to me :P
19:04:58Araqand then I run "nimrod c dmp.nim" again
19:05:18Araqit's not a fix, dom96, it's an aid in debugging
19:05:28dom96ahh
19:05:42Araqand then I notice I transformed the infinite recursion to an infinite loop
19:05:55Araqjust thanks to typeRelCounter
19:06:03Araqwhich doesn't make any sense whatsoever
19:06:47Araqso I'm going to the kitchen getting some schnaps
19:07:21VarriountI'll get some water. I'm under 21, and anything with alcohol in it tastes like rubbing alcohol to me.
19:07:52Araqand curse my decision to study computer science ...
19:08:20dom96Tea is the ultimate programmer's drink :P
19:08:34VarriountAnd sigh that your life-long dream of underwater basket weaving will never be fulfilled.
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19:24:45kryton9Hi guys
19:25:07VarriountHey!
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19:27:02kryton9I am expecting my order of a beaglebone black to arrive today.http://beagleboard.org/Products/BeagleBone%20Black
19:27:34kryton9I want to setup an always on LAMP server with it for low cost and low power usage.
19:27:41VarriountAnd what do you plan to do with it?
19:28:27kryton9Then get Nimrod working in Cloud9 IDE and then can work from any mobile device I have anywhere.
19:28:46VarriountThat would be nice..
19:28:49kryton9That is the plan anyways.
19:28:58circ-user-LkdVfVarriount: your code has an infinite ref in line 43. PDiff = ref PDiff
19:29:34VarriountAnd I'm guessing this is Araq talking?
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19:31:35circ-user-LkdVfno, just want to save sometime for Araq on tracing this infinite ref
19:32:08dom96nice catch
19:32:12VarriountMight it be wise to set a recursion limit or something on the typeRel counter then, to notify the user of this bug?
19:32:25Varriount*typeRel procedure
19:32:48dom96The compiler should be able to detect that the user is trying to create a type which is a ref of itself.
19:33:00kryton9Gotta run, just wanted to pop into say hi... sounds like you guys are into making things better for us in Nimrod, so thanks, and bye.
19:33:19VarriountHm.
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19:34:04VarriountWell, despite it being a silly error, at least I learned how to debug Nimrod. :)
19:35:04dom96Silly perhaps but you found a bug in the compiler, that's always good.
19:35:27VarriountNah, Araq found the bug, I just reported it.
19:37:55Varriountdom96, future warning for you. Compiling nimrod - -d:useSysAssert and -d:useGcAssert and with CFLAGS set to -g causes a major compiler slowdown
19:38:20VarriountIE, it took 30 minutes to compile simple script.
19:38:34Varriount*nimrod with
19:38:51dom96yeah I know, but thanks for the warning.
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19:47:36VarriountThis is probably a stupid question, but does passing a string into a function copy the entire string? or just a reference to the string?
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19:51:21Araqoh lol
19:51:51VarriountAraq, was curc-user-LkdVf you?
19:51:56Araqnope
19:52:03VarriountThen... who was it?
19:52:24Araqsome happy user of nimrod?
19:52:49VarriountHm. Do programmers have a patron saint?
19:55:24AraqI don't think so
19:56:40Araqand things are passed by copy or by reference as the compiler sees fit
19:56:58Araqwhich is allowed thanks to the parameter passing semantics
19:57:11Araqso don't worry, pass strings, they won't get copied
19:58:03VarriountSo, should I explicitly pair my various types (TPatch, TDiffSeq, etc) with reference types?
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19:58:26VarriountI did it because I assumed, looking at other modules like asyncio, that it was needed.
19:58:29Araqthat's what lots of code does and what many people dislike
19:59:00Araqalso history plays a role here: type Foo = ref object is kinda new
19:59:24Araqalso if you use 'ref seq' in gerenal you're doing it wrong ;-)
19:59:44VarriountSo, should I have explicit reference types?
20:00:30AraqI still like it but we're going through some transition phase
20:00:38Araqbut after 0.9.4 is out
20:01:20Araqso ... yeah use T/P like everybody else does except the whinners (hi DAddYE ;-) )
20:05:06*Araq noticed that 'debug' a cyclic type graph might as well trigger the endless loop
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20:31:02Araqalso .. 'seq' is not a linked list at all, it's a growable array
20:31:06*Araq is reading logs
20:31:30VarriountShould I add that to the internal documentation?
20:31:37*Varriount is updating documentation
20:32:14Araqno to the manual
20:32:46Araqthe internal docs are barely updated and nobody reads them
20:32:54*Varriount does...
20:33:28Araqusually when I say "nobody" and "everybody" I refer to the average joe reddit reader
20:34:09Varriount*shrug* I usually have a hard time expecting what the 'average' person would do.
20:35:22Araqoh that's easy, you simply extrapolate a dumber version of yourself :P
20:37:40DAddYEAraq: ahhahahah
20:38:24Araqcoming back from lunch, DAddYE ? ;-)
20:39:21DAddYEAraq: not yet, I'm going to get a coffee
20:39:33DAddYEbut yep almost done
20:39:36DAddYEhow are things?
20:39:59Araqnow I have 2 kids ...
20:40:21DAddYEyea I remember that
20:40:23DAddYE:D
20:40:37*Associat0r quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
20:40:39VarriountDo I want to know...?
20:40:47AraqI don't think so, the 2nd is 1 day old ...
20:41:12DAddYEAraq: mmm, I'm telepathic
20:41:17DAddYEbtw CONGRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATS MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
20:41:22DAddYEmale female?
20:41:27Araqfemale
20:42:00VarriountI would offer my services as a babysitter, but driving halfway across the US would really mess up my school schedule.
20:42:15DAddYEwooaaaaaaaa
20:42:16DAddYEname?
20:42:24Araqand driving to germany is even harder, Varriount
20:42:45*Varriount has lived in Germany
20:43:20*Varriount Garmisch Stuttgart, and swimming pools
20:43:24Varriount*misses
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20:55:47Araqhow can miss german swimming pools, Varriount ? are they special in any way?
20:56:02VarriountHave you ever been to the US?
20:56:21Araqyes, but not in any swimming pool
20:56:43VarriountThe swimming pools here are plain compared to ones where you live.
20:58:13VarriountOnly one slide, if any. No warm pools, or sand-boxes. No high divingboards.
20:58:31Araqok I see
20:58:46Araqso you miss the "Spaßbad" ;-)
20:58:55VarriountYes.
21:00:59Varriount*facepalm* I should have realized you were German. I remember reading through the nimrod site when it was still a .de site... something like force7.de?
21:01:08*Endy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
21:01:13Araqyup
21:01:48Araqwow you took your time to decide you like to help :P
21:03:17VarriountI barely knew anything more than Python at the time. Even now, as it is, the bulk of my knowledge is theoretical (I do a /lot/ of reading) .
21:04:21VarriountI think the concept I got stuck on back then was dynamic dispatch, and the way nimrod lets you do both len("hello world") and "Hello world".len
21:04:33Araqthat's great, I never read anything :-)
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21:05:38Araqit's always either full of greek symbols are too verbose, so I skim instead
21:05:45Araq*or too verbose
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21:09:07VarriountAraq, btw, my mother misses Glühwein
21:09:40Araqmeh I never can drink more than 4 of those ...
21:09:51Varriount:p
21:10:51Araqor maybe I can but can't remember at the same time :P
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21:27:28VarriountI;m going to go ahead and guess that Sequences are arrays that are grown by a certain size when more space is needed?
21:27:40VarriountAkin to Java lists?
21:28:13Araqyes except I have no idea about Java anymore
21:29:28VarriountIt's ok, I don't think anyone has a clear idea about Java these days. They just tend to muddle through it.
21:31:11Araqwell I will switch careers for good before working in Java again
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21:33:11AraqOrionPK: a seq is not a linked list
21:33:34OrionPKcool
21:33:54OrionPKi wasnt the one who wanted to know though
21:35:42Araqno you're the one spreading lies :P
21:35:50OrionPKlol, not lies, guesses :P
21:35:58Araqso it's much more important to tell you
21:36:00OrionPKI'm pretty sure I said I didn't know
21:36:34Araqtry with an "educated guess" the next time :P
21:36:47OrionPKooh burn :P
21:37:01OrionPKso you told me what it *isn't*, what is it, then, at a high level?
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21:42:40Araqa growable array
21:42:46Araqc++ calls it a "vector"
21:43:05Araqshowing once more it can't even get the very basic terminology right
21:43:29Araq(vectors are of a fixed size in math)
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21:45:12OrionPKgotcha
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22:36:08AraqVarriount: fyi the compiler checks for illegal recursions but this check is mixed with "sizeof" computations for types and for 'ref T' the size is clear without looking at 'T' ...
22:36:34Araqso the compiler doesn't catch your faulty type definition
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22:42:28OrionPKi dont know how, but microsoft is letting me download visual studio 2013 premium
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22:51:26VarriountO_o
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