<<19-06-2017>>

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10:06:57skrylar_wonder what kind of politicking it would take to get the arch package up to date
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10:16:55FromGitter<BontaVlad> Made a simple neural network in Nim: https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/3007, feedback highly encouraged!
10:17:30skrylar_I read that book recently
10:18:54FromGitter<BontaVlad> Nice book, I have learned a lot
10:19:19skrylar_@BontaVlad eh just keep in mind that you don't want everything to be hardcoded like you have it
10:19:55skrylar_the "big" frameworks like torch and tensorflow have everything set up in "layer" objects that you can stack
10:20:34FromGitter<BontaVlad> This was just a learning project, I need to learn a lot more math to start working on something serious
10:20:40skrylar_your next step is probably to do something similar, so you can change the types of neurons or add more/less layers as-needed without too much fuss. its pretty easy since in nim all you have to do is chuck them in a seq
10:20:52skrylar_not as much as you think
10:22:09FromGitter<BontaVlad> It was a great small project, and nim was a pleasure to use.
10:27:11FromGitter<BontaVlad> @skrylar_, once I learn more about this subject I will change some parts of the code :). Thx for the info!
10:27:32skrylar_i highly recommend installing sage or at least sympy
10:28:09skrylar_it will calculate the derivatives for you once you start getting in to backpropagation and weird neuron types 8)
10:30:33FromGitter<BontaVlad> Sounds interesting, I started to watch some ML courses on youtube, and by implementing some algorithms in nim it forces me to learn nim as well as the math.
10:41:10skrylar_nim is pretty obedient
11:21:39koppehMhh.. how would you define a default value for a tuple type in a proc?
11:21:57koppehtype WindowSize = tuple[width: int32, height: int32]
11:22:23koppehproc init*(size: WindowSize = (400, 300)) results in this error:
11:22:32koppehtype mismatch: got ((int, int)) but expected 'WindowSize = tuple[width: int32, height: int32]'
11:22:59couven92koppeh, try (400'i32, 300'i32) instead
11:23:17koppehHmm, yes that works.
11:23:20skrylar_fun with pedantry
11:24:22koppehThen the calling end needs it to, hmm.. I'll to with just int and cast later, then.
11:24:31couven92koppeh, 400 is a literal for the `int` type. The `'i32` suffix specifies the literal explicitly as an int32 literal
11:25:17koppehBut this works: let i: int32 = 400
11:26:15koppehI would've figured the tuple equivalent would work too.
11:26:19couven92Hmm... I guess thats because the let statement includes a type specification
11:26:37skrylar_bother Araq about it
11:26:50skrylar_it *shouldn't* be ambiguous given you only have ints of a set type
11:27:07skrylar_where the problems begin is if you DO have a tuple for "int" and "int32"
11:27:15skrylar_but since that's not the case you shouldn't need the 'i32 silliness
11:27:36couven92koppeh, what about this: `let siz: WindowSize = (400, 300)` and then `init(siz)`?
11:28:06skrylar_it might also be allowable to have a const for your default value
11:28:22skrylar_const defaultfoo = (...) [..] proc stuff(foo: Foo = DefaultFoo)
11:28:42koppehConst doesn't work, same error.
11:28:51skrylar_you'd still have to do the 'i32 silliness in the const
11:28:52koppehAnd same with let.
11:29:05skrylar_it just hides it from the proc definition and keeps the consts separated (code hygiene)
11:29:16*koppeh nods.
11:37:31Araqone day I'll reimplement how Nim treats array and tuple literals
11:37:37Araqbut today is not this day
11:37:55couven92Araq, that bad, huh?
11:38:02couven92:P
11:38:24Araqactually it works as designed but now I know the design people want :P
11:39:13koppeh(I've had a few thoughts about my own language..)
11:40:00koppehMy friend doesn't really like some of those though.. heh.
11:40:44koppehOne of the things it tries to accomplish is making each of the bracket types clearly represent one concept and not have them change depending on context.
11:41:00couven92Araq, that reminds about this one: http://www.epcreation-services.com//scripts/thumb/phpThumb.php?src=http://www.epcreation-services.com//images/howthecustomerexplainedit1.jpg&w=680 (Software Engineering Explained)
11:41:59couven92(concerning the difference between what is designed vs. what people actually want)
11:48:25skrylar_koppeh then you have rust
11:48:36skrylar_or at least early versions of rust that used every possible sigil for something
11:48:48koppehNot even.
11:49:29koppehI use () instead of {} for blocks.
11:49:40koppehAnd [] instead of () for function calling.
11:50:01skrylar_i like what smalltalk did where they just sorta said here is a micro-syntax and then you just do whatever with it. although i think the vector syntax was nonstandard in squeak
11:50:46koppeh() is block / grouping syntax. Since blocks can have an implicit return value, (4) == (2 + 2) == (DoNothing[]; 4)
11:51:13koppehAnd [] would be object syntax.
11:51:49Arrrrmy eyes!
11:51:56koppehAnd function calling is not much different than passing an object to it that represents the arguments..
11:52:05koppeh"Arrrr my eyes!" ... pfft
11:54:54koppeh(Never have I seen a more fitting nick ^^)
12:01:47PMunchHmm, what is the deal with "Error: inheritance only works with non-final objects"?
12:02:14skrylar_you need to put {.inheritable.} on the object being inherited from
12:02:26ftsfPMunch, means your object must be inherited from RootObj or an inheritable type
12:03:16PMunchAh, this code was made from c2nim
12:03:22ftsf"Objects that have no ancestor are implicitly final and thus have no hidden type field. One can use the inheritable pragma to introduce new object roots apart from system.RootObj."
12:03:34PMunchhttp://ix.io/xFp
12:03:39PMunchThe objects in question
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12:47:41FromGitter<dandevelop> What is the backquote: ` used for in nim?
12:47:55skrylar_escaping identifiers
12:48:03skrylar_proc `foo=`()
12:48:13FromGitter<dandevelop> So those identifiers won't be mangled by the compiler?
12:48:27skrylar_incorrect
12:48:35skrylar_its so the parser doesn't become confused
12:49:11FromGitter<dandevelop> Is there any example of how this works somewhere online?
12:49:19skrylar_i just gave you one ._.
12:49:37skrylar_its used so the lexer/paser doesn't get confused when you are doing operator overloading and such
12:49:45FromGitter<dandevelop> Oh, I think gitter displayed it differntly
12:49:52skrylar_it does
12:50:02skrylar_gitter eats it as markdown
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12:50:39FromGitter<dandevelop> I saw only a proc foo= () and I was not sure what you meant
12:52:56FromGitter<dandevelop> Trying to understand when this would be useful
12:53:14skrylar_i just told you
12:53:44skrylar_setters have equals in their names. the parser doesn't always know if foo= means "set foo equal to" or "the identifier named foo="
12:55:15FromGitter<dandevelop> I got the setters part, thanks @skrylar_ I also saw this used with .emit and I was trying to understand the .emit use case
12:59:48Araqin emit it's used so that the compiler knows it's Nim code inside the string literal
13:02:00FromGitter<dandevelop> Thank you @Araq
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13:39:31FromGitter<gogolxdong> @BontaVlad how long did your epoch=3 take for training and based on what equipment?
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14:51:30FromGitter<BontaVlad> By using Neo matrix lib using a epoch 10 training took @30 min with a dataset of 60000 entries
14:52:18FromGitter<BontaVlad> PC config is 6GB of ddr3 RAM, Intel(R) Xeon(R) X5460 @ 3.16GHz 4 cores
14:53:26FromGitter<BontaVlad> I think the code could be optimized a lot(my code). You can also push matrix operation on the GPU, check Neo's api for doing that
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15:32:11FromGitter<andreaferretti> I didn't check your example, but it seems a lot
15:32:23FromGitter<andreaferretti> https://github.com/unicredit/neurotic takes a few seconds on the CPU
15:32:40FromGitter<andreaferretti> unfortunately, I have to finish porting it to neo
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15:46:48FromGitter<TiberiumN> Also you can try with a Intel compiler, maybe it will give you some speed
15:47:08FromGitter<TiberiumN> but it's not free, only trial, or education version for students (you can't sell software compiled with intel compiler)
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16:48:05chrisheller@Araq here is the pull request for passing in stdin, stdout, and/or stderr handles for startProcess. https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/6002
16:48:18chrishellerIncludes test cases as requested :)
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17:43:12Araqchrisheller: love it, thanks :-)
17:44:22chrishellerI was thinking of adding something to hide the need for callers to use get_osfhandle
17:45:39chrishellerSo that f.getFileHandle() would work cross platform when supplying handles for startProcess
17:47:04chrishellerSomething like getOSHandle(handle: cint) that would call get_osfhandle when windows is defined, but otherwise just return the cint handle.
17:50:03chrishellerLooks like os.nim sort of does that already in the getFileInfo proc.
17:52:21chrishellerI guess startProcess could be updated to take FileHandle instead of Handle so that the need for get_osfhandle could be hidden from callers that way.
17:56:26koppehIf you get a ptr+size to a string (from in this case OpenGL), what's the suggested way to get a string from that?
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17:57:42dom96koppeh: You can't. Strings are managed by Nim's GC.
17:59:35koppehCopy the contents into a new Nim string, then?
17:59:44koppehShould I look into strutils, maybe?
18:05:15dom96yeah, you can do that. I think copymem is what you'd use https://nim-lang.org/docs/system.html#copyMem,pointer,pointer,Natural
18:06:28koppehHmm.. there's no standard way of doing this?
18:08:55FromGitter<TiberiumN> can I use "||" openmp proc with this kind of "for"? ⏎ "for index, item in someStringSequence:"
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18:16:39dom96koppeh: Not as far as I know. It would make a good standard library addition though (if you want to create a PR).
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18:44:47Araqchrisheller: such an abstraction needs to be well thought-out and this Windows gotcha needs to be documented.
18:45:35Araqin fact, maybe we need to change the type to 'File' or Stream hmmm
18:47:46chrishellerI can try to add some additional documentation that explains it.
18:48:49koppehOh and.. is there just a general way of creating a string from a buffer and length?
18:48:57koppehKind of trying to find some options here.
18:49:17koppehAt the moment we're thinking of casting the GLchar pointer to cstring and using $ on that..?
18:49:24chrishellerAt least a quick comment in the doc for startProcess that says that on Windows, you need to provide "Windows handle" and not a C file handle.
18:50:41chrishellerBut that does not seem like a good long term answer though. It would be better to make it work cross-platform by default, and then if someone needs something platform specific, let them choose to do so.
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19:37:13chrishellerI just added a getRealHandle proc that is exported from osproc.nim and contains the documentation for why it is needed. The doc for startProcess now references this.
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19:39:40chrishellerThat doesn't completely hide the cross platform differences, but does at least make it much easier for someone. The tests look much cleaner with this change
19:43:46subsetparkCan someone correct my use of the do notation here?
19:44:23subsetpark scoreStates.sort do (x, y: ScoreState) -> int:
19:44:23subsetpark cmp(x.score, y.score)
19:44:29subsetparkWhere ScoreState is a tuple
19:44:40subsetparkError: 'do (x, y: ScoreState)-> int:
19:44:40subsetpark cmp(x.score, y.score)' doesn't have a concrete type, due to unspecified generic parameters.
19:45:20subsetparkOh, I understand. It's a generic in that case and needs to be parameterized there too. Got it!
19:45:58Araqchrisheller: it's not a "real handle" though, in fact, it's the opposite afaik
19:46:40chrishellerHah. I just added a comment in https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/6001 wondering about the name :)
19:46:58AraqgetFileHandle returns the file handle but to create a 0,1,2 "standard" handle you need this other call
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19:47:11Araqor maybe I misremember
19:48:10chrishellergetOSHandle() might be slightly better
19:49:01chrishellerNo, the get_osfhandle call is Windows specific to go from 0,1,2 file handles to a pointer to a "Windows handle"
19:50:47chrishellerstartProcess could be changed to take FileHandle instead of Handle, but then you can't pass in a pipe or other non-file Handles on Windows.
19:53:35chrishellerThe python code that I am porting is only using file handles, so I don't have any good test cases that use pipes on Windows.
19:54:34chrishellerI guess I could look at the unit tests for subprocess.py for some ideas
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19:59:26koppehHi, this is the friend I was talking about earlier.
19:59:46*Vi- waves
19:59:47koppehMaybe now she can explain some of her issues more directly.
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20:01:42Vi-Okay, the following... Using the opengl wrapper there doesn't seem to be a way to have a soft dependency on an extension
20:02:15Vi-Since it tries to load every single function in use when calling loadExtensions
20:03:31Vi-In this case I want to use glDebugMessageCallback on a 3.3 context, but its from 4.3 so I can't expect it to be available
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20:19:00FromGitter<zacharycarter> @Araq for karax: https://github.com/marko-js/isomorphic-ui-benchmarks
20:23:51dom96hello Vi-! I wish I could help you out but OpenGL is the one area I haven't had a chance to play with yet in Nim, hopefully if you stick around somebody else might be able to help you out though :)
20:24:17FromGitter<zacharycarter> I don't think there's much help that can be offered with that problem Vi- without changing the opengl wrapper itself
20:25:16FromGitter<zacharycarter> I don't really understand your question either though - if an extension is only available to a certain OpenGL version, wouldn't loading it with a lower version fail?
20:26:11AraqVi-: the extension loader is indeed non-optional but the way it does it under the hood shows how to accomplish such a thing
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20:28:00FromGitter<zacharycarter> Marko seems to be kicking ass in all the benchmarks
20:28:26Vi-Id use glGetProc and related but they arent exported
20:28:59Araqzacharycarter: thanks but karax is not yet optimized well (we're working on it though)
20:29:21Vi-But... there seems to be a way to make it use glew instead, would it still try to load everything in use then?
20:29:23FromGitter<zacharycarter> sure thing - I'm looking forward to being able to use Karax at work
20:29:36FromGitter<zacharycarter> using Vue at the moment which is a step up from react
20:30:12AraqI used Vue 1.2.
20:30:25FromGitter<zacharycarter> should give it another spin, Vue is pretty nice
20:30:36FromGitter<zacharycarter> also - https://nuxtjs.org/
20:30:54AraqI'd rather program with my own blood on a whiteboard
20:30:57FromGitter<zacharycarter> is really what I'm using
20:31:03FromGitter<zacharycarter> lol
20:31:11FromGitter<zacharycarter> You better not try react then
20:32:09Elronndis it possible to control the generated c code in nim?
20:32:21Elronndlike, to embed c code, in the same way you can embed assembly in some other languages?
20:32:51AraqVi-: I don't know about Glew, I'd add an export marker to glGetProc and submit a PR
20:33:44Araqzacharycarter: you can't patch JS with libraries and frameworks.
20:34:02Araqthe language sucks, you need to replace it.
20:35:31koppehWebAssembly? \o/
20:35:54Vi-hm, something else then
20:36:13Vi-I'll try useGlew, can I add -d flags to nimble somehow?
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20:36:30dom96Elronnd: {.emit: "c code".}
20:37:04demi-Vi-: you can specify them as part of your nim.cfg file
20:37:13Vi-Also, I kinda wonder why there isn't a pragma to define these flags
20:37:36dom96yeah, you put all flags in a .nim.cfg (or config.nims file)
20:38:14Vi-kay
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22:46:21skrylar_i've done a tiny bit of opengl stuff but not in nim
22:48:03skrylar_there seem to be two schools of thought with GL handling: either have all your calls be function pointers assigned through dlopen (or windows equivalent) or there's a special tag where you can get GCC to do it for you
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22:52:49AraqNim uses the "let the compiler do it" solution
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