| 00:00:46 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod c9c985c Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: todo.txt changes |
| 00:00:46 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod f1e6b69 Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:Araq/Nimrod |
| 00:00:46 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod d67fa98 Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: mark and sweep without bitvectors |
| 00:00:46 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod ce1a762 Araq [+0 ±3 -0]: mark and sweep GC without bitvectors works |
| 00:00:46 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod edb62cb Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: small cleanups |
| 00:01:16 | Araq | does NimBot prune the commit history, dom96 ? |
| 00:01:28 | dom96 | it might |
| 00:02:33 | Araq | alright |
| 00:02:38 | Araq | well good night |
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| 13:20:22 | gour | dom96: my comment is posted now (http://mathprogrammer.com/blog/?p=12) |
| 13:21:40 | dom96 | "I�ve chosen to use Nimrod which is the only language which has brought some fresh air and enthusiasm for adequate programming in 21st century." |
| 13:21:43 | dom96 | Nice, I like that :) |
| 13:22:24 | gour | thanks |
| 13:41:41 | dom96 | wow |
| 13:41:45 | dom96 | I just realised something. |
| 13:41:58 | dom96 | Was looking through the old Nimrod forum: http://force7.de/heimdall/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=409&sid=ac196586cc8f3836ac8a816f53d5397d |
| 13:42:01 | dom96 | Found that link |
| 13:42:17 | dom96 | went to the guys github page |
| 13:42:26 | dom96 | and what do I see? https://github.com/wbhart/dpoly |
| 13:42:54 | dom96 | I wonder why he choose to use D in the end. |
| 13:43:07 | dom96 | But this is a weird coincidence |
| 13:47:13 | dom96 | I suppose the world of programming is a small world indeed. |
| 13:55:48 | * | gour nods |
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| 15:47:28 | Araq | well we still lack bignums |
| 15:47:52 | Araq | *I* wonder why left Lisp though ... doesn't make sense |
| 15:49:09 | dom96 | Well the guy in fact didn't even use the D implementation of bignums. |
| 15:49:54 | dom96 | he used GMP instead. |
| 15:50:53 | Araq | sure but we don't have GMP wrappers either |
| 15:51:00 | Araq | or do we? |
| 15:51:14 | dom96 | No, but come on. c2nim is easy enough to use. |
| 15:51:31 | dom96 | and GMP doesn't seem too complex? |
| 15:51:37 | dom96 | well the API that is. |
| 15:52:15 | Araq | *shrug* I wanted to wait until we have destructors in place |
| 15:52:32 | Araq | 'cause they make a lot of sense for it |
| 16:00:04 | gour | jsut saw that pone of the main guys behind qt port for android is approved in qt project...is there a plan to have nimrod useful for android platform (probably via qt)? |
| 16:01:01 | Araq | wtf my windows installer says "161MB of free disk space is required" :O |
| 16:01:26 | Araq | gour: we have android examples in the distribution |
| 16:01:37 | gour | Araq: which UI? |
| 16:01:58 | Araq | dunno, native java stuff I think |
| 16:02:57 | gour | uhh..java |
| 16:07:35 | gour | now i see that qt port works as "your Qt application is compiled as a dynamic library and a Java application wrapper is added to interface it with the Android environment." dark age when one of the major mobile OS player uses java :-( |
| 16:08:20 | Araq | so the qt port does the same :P |
| 16:12:20 | gour | yeah...i'd like to see crash of the whole mobile/tablet industry so that we can revert back to desktop & laptop/netbook machines only |
| 16:12:53 | gour | the present trend of having such powerful phones to paly games and watch videos is...simply madness |
| 16:21:39 | Araq | hm does anybody know a decent "cmd.exe" replacement? |
| 16:25:25 | gour | http://alternativeto.net/software/windows-command-prompt-cmd/?platform=windows |
| 16:25:53 | gour | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19772/cmd-exe-replacement |
| 16:33:14 | Araq | gour: thanks, console2 is sweet |
| 16:33:37 | gour | cool...i only used msys under windows |
| 16:47:06 | Araq | er ... ugh, it can't even select text ... |
| 16:51:53 | * | gour thinks that windows are simply not developer-friendly platform |
| 16:58:06 | reactormonk | gour, I tend to use scala on the jvm :-) |
| 17:09:42 | Araq | powercmd is cool though |
| 17:10:07 | gour | reactormonk: ahh...i'm investigating about possible/alternative GUIs to be used with nimrod...IUP looks good, but lack of unicode, localization support and mac os x driver is probably showstopper. i see there are tcl bindings for nimrod, but not sure whether using tk from nimrod would be feasible? |
| 17:10:42 | gour | i'd like to stay away from jvm, if possible...actually with nimrod is possible :-) |
| 17:10:53 | gour | ...we just need some decent gui option |
| 17:11:55 | reactormonk | gour, I kinda like tk, but I think tcl uses slightly different semantics than nimrod |
| 17:12:17 | dom96 | I think GTK/Qt is your best bet. |
| 17:13:49 | gour | dom96: well, no qt bindings...what do you think about gtk's future direction? many people are not happy with either gnome3 nor gtk...e.g. even gnucash devs considering to move to c++ toolkit |
| 17:15:55 | dom96 | I can't really say that I have evaluated their future direction. From what I have experienced with gtk3+ though: it discourages me from using it. But it's not like there is a good alternative out there. |
| 17:16:13 | dom96 | Qt might be one, but yeah, you need a wrapper. |
| 17:17:09 | gour | gtk2 is probably dead-end |
| 17:17:16 | gour | in few years |
| 17:17:18 | reactormonk | The signals are interesting to integrate into C |
| 17:18:50 | gour | ? |
| 17:23:48 | reactormonk | gour, qt signals. |
| 17:23:59 | gour | ahh, ok |
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| 17:40:54 | Araq | gour: have you looked into 'claro'? |
| 17:41:03 | Araq | it needs a maintainer though ... |
| 17:50:51 | gour | you were working on it in the past? i believe i saw something on github...let me check |
| 17:52:40 | Araq | I cleaned it up and gave it python based build script |
| 17:52:51 | gour | that's qt-based, which means c++, right? |
| 17:52:59 | Araq | nah, it's C |
| 17:53:08 | Araq | nothing to do with qt |
| 17:53:18 | gour | hmm, interesting |
| 17:53:20 | Araq | it wraps the native widgets |
| 17:54:03 | Araq | I would port it over to nimrod gradually and make it nimrod's default UI |
| 17:54:18 | Araq | but then I can't do everything :P |
| 17:56:13 | gour | "nimrod's default UI", this sounds compelling ;) |
| 17:57:10 | Araq | well I keep advertising it here but nobody wants to push it forward |
| 17:57:31 | Araq | and for aporia we heavily depend on gtksourceview anyway |
| 17:58:49 | gour | that's too bad...aporia wouls be good candidate to promote it |
| 17:58:56 | Araq | and most people here either write games or webapps ;-) |
| 18:00:06 | reactormonk | Araq, got a project in mind for a gui app |
| 18:00:16 | reactormonk | but other things first. |
| 18:00:36 | gour | otoh, i'll hardly find time to work on my desired project, what to speak about maintaining gui bindings alone |
| 18:00:48 | gour | reactormonk: gtk? |
| 18:01:26 | Araq | another thing to consider is: a new toolkit has to be learned |
| 18:01:53 | Araq | if we have wxwidgets and qt bindings people will use that because they're already familiar with it |
| 18:02:48 | Araq | but then they wouldn't learn a new PL either ... hm |
| 18:03:19 | gour | why not? |
| 18:05:25 | Araq | I mean: people who took the effort and learned Nimrod may as well learn a new UI toolkit |
| 18:05:35 | gour | ocaml has gtk, ada, qt/gtk, haskell qt/gtk/wx, D had few of them including dwt...so, it's easier to maintain bindings than wrote toolkit from the scratch |
| 18:06:06 | Araq | but we don't start from scratch |
| 18:06:15 | Araq | we can build onto claro |
| 18:06:24 | dom96 | I think if someone made a GUI toolkit like Factor's, that would be cool. |
| 18:06:34 | gour | i beleive it's easier to jump to nimrod from some prcoedural lang than to learn new UI toolkit...there is always question of ROI in terms of time |
| 18:06:36 | dom96 | But Claro is certainly cool too. |
| 18:06:46 | * | dom96 will try it for his next project |
| 18:09:26 | Araq | dom96: does factor's UI use native widgets? |
| 18:09:59 | dom96 | Araq: no, it draws them using OpenGL IIRC |
| 18:10:23 | dom96 | well probably not OpenGL, what am I saying. |
| 18:10:44 | dom96 | it draws them using something |
| 18:10:55 | Araq | maybe we should just embrace fowl's widget stuff |
| 18:11:04 | Araq | which uses opengl afaik |
| 18:11:17 | Araq | has been designed for games though |
| 18:11:35 | dom96 | fowl has widget stuff? |
| 18:11:39 | reactormonk | Or take a look at tcl? |
| 18:11:52 | reactormonk | because, uh, http://www.tkdocs.com/ |
| 18:12:03 | gour | reactormonk: new tk ha native look? |
| 18:12:06 | reactormonk | The docs are 4 years old again :-/ |
| 18:12:11 | reactormonk | gour, so not so 'new' |
| 18:12:25 | gour | i mean latest version |
| 18:12:42 | reactormonk | yep |
| 18:12:55 | reactormonk | I wouldn't know how to bridge nimrod and tk though |
| 18:13:17 | gour | via C :-) |
| 18:13:19 | reactormonk | Araq, I don't assume nimrod has runtime types, does it? |
| 18:13:30 | reactormonk | gour, bridge != api implemented |
| 18:13:42 | gour | just joking |
| 18:14:01 | gour | no idea either |
| 18:14:10 | reactormonk | There's a pure ffi to tcl binding |
| 18:14:35 | gour | but tk could be complelling being lighter than the c++ ones |
| 18:15:04 | gour | and active community |
| 18:16:35 | gour | it's interesting they switched to fossil instead of git |
| 18:21:42 | Araq | reactormonk: when I looked at it the last time, the C API was not separate nor documented |
| 18:22:00 | Araq | (or maybe I was too stupid to find it) |
| 18:40:42 | Araq | reactormonk: what have runtime types to do with it? |
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| 19:47:37 | exhu | Araq, i've looked at claro examples, it reminds me GTK. |
| 19:48:28 | exhu | i think FLTK is the best gui toolkit, but it lacks layout managers and fontconfig functionality. |
| 19:48:34 | exhu | and it's in c++ -) |
| 19:48:36 | Araq | brb |
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| 19:52:06 | exhu | FLTK is ultrafast and slimmest, if I were to write a toolkit, i would port FLTK (i.e. rewrite close to original but in pure nimrod). |
| 19:53:13 | gour | i've asked about IUP on their list and the main dev says they're not happy with GTK as multi-platform toolkit - see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lib.iup.user/368 |
| 19:54:08 | Araq | exhu: checked out claro's awesome DSL for describing layouts? |
| 19:54:11 | exhu | GTK is tooo heavy in that it depends on many libraries and some time ago it was ugly on Windows. |
| 19:54:51 | Araq | I've never used FLTK |
| 19:55:03 | Araq | I only noticed they use C++ as "C with classes" ;-) |
| 19:55:54 | exhu | Araq, c with classes is also a thing I liked about FLTK when I had to quickly write a small game level editor. |
| 19:57:15 | exhu | Araq, I don't see a DSL in claro, it's all in C in examples. |
| 19:57:42 | gour | anyone still working on claro? |
| 19:58:49 | Araq | the old claro website had a cool example |
| 19:59:01 | Araq | gour: it's been dead since years |
| 19:59:22 | gour | i see... |
| 19:59:34 | gour | Araq: what do you think about Tk in Nimrod? |
| 20:00:16 | exhu | Araq, as for FLTK one more minimalistic feature I liked was that each UI control had only one possible action associated with it, like buttons can only trigger "on_clicked" callbacks and not anything else. i.e. "keep-it-simple" is enough for many GUI stuff. |
| 20:00:47 | Araq | true, it also enforces you use the widgets appropriately |
| 20:00:52 | Araq | *to use |
| 20:03:04 | Araq | exhu: lt2 = layout_create( fr, "[combo][{10}][text]", *b, 25, 25 ); |
| 20:03:16 | Araq | is an example for it |
| 20:03:38 | Araq | they took regexes for inspiration ;-) |
| 20:04:02 | exhu | Araq, i can't found anything meaningful on claro gui toolkit in the internet, the only thing is the claro repo you have on github. |
| 20:04:16 | Araq | yeah, it disappeared |
| 20:04:22 | exhu | Araq, this layout string looks cryptic to me. |
| 20:04:23 | Araq | so I'm the owner now :P |
| 20:05:25 | exhu | Araq, i don't think strings and dictionaries (like in IUP) are a good idea for layout etc. when we have so many compiler-time features in Nimrod. |
| 20:06:02 | Araq | well sure |
| 20:06:32 | Araq | the nice thing about claro is that it code contains how to create buttons etc. on windows, mac and linux |
| 20:06:47 | Araq | it's hard to find people how know all 3 ;-) |
| 20:06:58 | exhu | Nim is good for data description. |
| 20:07:02 | Araq | IUP still has no support for mac, for instance |
| 20:07:30 | Araq | but yeah, we should port it over to nim |
| 20:08:01 | Araq | apparently zedshaw was behind claro btw :-) |
| 20:08:12 | reactormonk | How do I implement my own == for objects? Or why isn't it field equality? |
| 20:08:37 | exhu | Araq, yes, there was time when I wanted to write my own gui toolkit like FLTK and started googling for X11 protocols, found out that Xlib is wrong and that for new applications you must use xcb and there were no docs on how to use it and i gave up -) |
| 20:09:33 | reactormonk | exhu, wayland!!! |
| 20:10:00 | Araq | reactormonk: == for tuples is lifted from the tuple's components |
| 20:10:17 | Araq | the same is not done for 'object' because you may not want that |
| 20:10:36 | Araq | however, now system.nim could provide it |
| 20:10:44 | Araq | and you could deactivate it via: |
| 20:10:58 | Araq | proc `==` (a, b: TMyConcreteType): bool {.error.} |
| 20:11:07 | Araq | so maybe we should do that ... |
| 20:11:29 | Araq | gour: as I said, I'm unable to see how to use TK from its C API |
| 20:11:38 | reactormonk | Araq, upvote from me. How do I do hat? |
| 20:11:42 | Araq | (and TCL is just horrible) |
| 20:11:55 | reactormonk | Araq, aww. |
| 20:11:56 | Araq | reactormonk: check out how == for tuples is implemented in system.nim |
| 20:12:02 | gour | Araq: "we should port it over to nim", you mean IUP? |
| 20:12:04 | exhu | I tried to use TCL/TK in python, it's terrible and slow and terribly slow -) |
| 20:12:19 | Araq | gour: I mean claro |
| 20:12:36 | gour | Araq: there are several references how to use Tk from C(++) which i've found |
| 20:12:43 | gour | Araq: ahh, ok. |
| 20:13:09 | reactormonk | Araq, http://sprunge.us/EWNe <- ? |
| 20:13:20 | reactormonk | Araq, what's the difference between a tuple and an object btw? |
| 20:13:35 | gour | reactormonk: order? |
| 20:13:47 | reactormonk | gour, oh, an object is unordered. |
| 20:13:59 | reactormonk | That would explain <= and so on for tuples |
| 20:14:19 | exhu | Also I thought to use Cairo for 2D graphics in custom gui toolkits but it uses DOUBLE for coords etc, not sure if it's appropriate for most apps. |
| 20:16:34 | Araq | reactormonk: objects support more features; objects are nominal types, tuples are structural types |
| 20:17:04 | Araq | Cairo should be fine I guess, but you have to wrap coords then |
| 20:17:15 | exhu | tuples are good for interoperating with SQL results -) |
| 20:17:23 | Araq | in fact, "pixels" is not the proper unit either ... |
| 20:19:00 | exhu | pixel-bound UI is not proper, i.e. when you place controls on a "form" at certain pixel positions rather than using layout manager, that automatically sizes matching to current font, dpi etc. |
| 20:19:00 | Araq | reactormonk: s/: tuple/: tuple|object/ and you have what you wanted :D |
| 20:19:14 | Araq | yeah |
| 20:19:23 | Araq | layout managers suck too btw |
| 20:19:29 | gour | any gallery with claro widgets? |
| 20:19:46 | Araq | the proper way is to set anchors |
| 20:19:58 | Araq | like Delphi does |
| 20:20:41 | exhu | i saw like Lazarus does with anchors, it's complicated and ugly (often captions do not fit the controls when you change UI language, e.g. from english to german) |
| 20:21:20 | Araq | hrm but it's so sweet when you don't care about i18n |
| 20:21:38 | Araq | I don't think it's complicated |
| 20:21:56 | Araq | you insert a new widget and set its "anchor" property |
| 20:22:50 | exhu | and when the leftmost control receives a translated text that doesn't fit the bounds of that control, is overlaps over the anchored one -) |
| 20:23:19 | Araq | so what, prepare the bounds then :P |
| 20:24:06 | exhu | When I need GUI, I want only to place fields with captions, some checkboxes and buttons, and a working/drawing area of the document, i don't want to set anchors, positions etc. |
| 20:25:07 | exhu | Araq, "prepare the bounds" sounds like "take a big enough array for unknown arabic text" =) |
| 20:25:12 | Araq | actually Delphi/Lazarus style could be improved yes |
| 20:25:32 | Araq | because often it's obvious what the widget's default anchor should do |
| 20:25:52 | exhu | "arabic" here is not to offend anyone, i just can't read arabic script, neither understand. |
| 20:26:53 | Araq | exhu: it's not as simple as that |
| 20:27:14 | Araq | often you really don't care about arabic and if you do, you should really test the resulting layout anyway |
| 20:27:41 | Araq | "pray and hope the layout ends up looking nice" never works |
| 20:29:06 | exhu | Araq, yes testing is required for every language. But I don't like placing controls, I just want a 90% time working UI from the start without pixel-tuning. |
| 20:29:27 | exhu | like a web-form |
| 20:29:59 | Araq | websites do get this right, yeah |
| 20:30:28 | Araq | but the browser's layouting engine is not something you want in an UI toolkit |
| 20:32:36 | Araq | but hey, if you do the work, you decide how to do it ;-) |
| 20:32:38 | exhu | this one I liked http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?Harmonia |
| 20:33:29 | dom96 | I think the way GTK handles widget layouts is fine, and you can always place widgets wherever you like using GtkFixed. |
| 20:33:50 | gour | isn't it similar to e.g. wx? |
| 20:33:58 | exhu | Araq, unfortunately I'm too lazy and time-limited =) If programming were not my main work, i would probably participate more. |
| 20:34:03 | gour | probably qt does something similar |
| 20:37:12 | exhu | Harmonia is nice, but I don't like html/xml |
| 20:40:51 | * | gour considers that size of the community working on the original toolkit is important concern as well 'cause nimrod should stand on other's gui shoulders...possibly |
| 20:46:59 | Araq | never heard of "Harmonia" |
| 20:47:24 | Araq | how big is it? can't imagine an HTML engine can be small :P |
| 20:50:32 | Araq | gour: https://github.com/Araq/Claro/blob/master/doc/site/claro/src/images/screenshots/macosx/canvas-test.png |
| 20:50:44 | Araq | browse that dir for more screenshots |
| 20:54:51 | gour | ta |
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| 21:11:39 | Araq | hi fowl |
| 21:32:54 | fowl | hey |
| 21:36:02 | Araq | we talked about your UI widgets |
| 21:36:37 | Araq | can these be a starting point for a more general UI toolkit? |
| 21:36:50 | Araq | you use opengl to render them, right? |
| 21:40:08 | fowl | i use sfml mainly |
| 21:40:23 | fowl | you could use just opengl and ftgl though |
| 21:44:23 | fowl | i can get the collision detection done really fast with sfml because it has nice functions like getGlobalBounds() and handling input and window is important because you have to do it separately on all three platforms |
| 21:44:43 | shevy | wheeeee fowl is back |
| 21:45:27 | fowl | but the bad thing about sfml is that its a c port so theres overhead when things get copied from c++ classes to c structs and it requires users to have two libraries installed, sfml and csfml |
| 21:45:31 | Anaphaxeton | hi nimrod fellas |
| 21:45:52 | fowl | Anaphaxeton: sup |
| 21:46:28 | Anaphaxeton | having a headache and writting a cript! |
| 21:46:32 | Anaphaxeton | script! |
| 21:46:34 | Anaphaxeton | you? |
| 21:47:29 | Araq | fowl: I see; how would do a cross platform UI toolkit that is not tied to games? |
| 21:52:28 | fowl | i'd reimplement/port sfml :) |
| 21:54:26 | fowl | if we support opengles it would run on phones too :O |
| 21:55:31 | gour | fowl: what about using tk with nimrod? |
| 21:59:52 | gour | fowl: tk folks are those that switched to fossil ;) |
| 22:01:10 | fowl | gour: tcl and tk are stinky |
| 22:01:23 | gour | why? |
| 22:01:36 | gour | or do you prefer c++ toolkits? |
| 22:01:56 | gour | i'm looking at IUP, but it has soem deficiency |
| 22:02:33 | gour | fowl: as Araq said, something not tied to gaming |
| 22:03:05 | gour | ...and not to heavy, with good native look... |
| 22:03:11 | gour | *too heavy |
| 22:04:34 | Araq | native look and feel is nice |
| 22:04:53 | Araq | but it's not required when you have nicely looking widgets |
| 22:05:16 | Araq | in fact, the idea of a consistent UI is gone for good thanks to the web |
| 22:05:46 | gour | i cannot say for myself, but many say that e.g. Mac OS users expect some sort of 'system integration' one one's app |
| 22:05:56 | fowl | i was working on stuff to load the gui elements from json but i cant find the file now :/ |
| 22:06:39 | gour | but web cannot, imho, replace desktop widgets |
| 22:06:47 | gour | except for some very simple stuff |
| 22:07:14 | gour | and then there is no need for nimrod for such apps as well :-) |
| 22:09:12 | Araq | there is because JS is PITA :P |
| 22:17:01 | gour | personally i do not believe that web is market to attract many devs to nimrod |
| 22:20:47 | dom96 | why not? |
| 22:21:32 | gour | there are enough good-enough alternatives wich much more support, bigger communities etc. |
| 22:21:56 | dom96 | can you give an example? |
| 22:23:13 | gour | e.g. only haskell has few very good web frameworks solving concurrency problems, scaling etc. |
| 22:24:05 | gour | otoh, there is plethora node.js-like stuff |
| 22:24:47 | dom96 | haskell is too purely functional for my taste, and JS sucks. |
| 22:25:14 | gour | other devs, just don't bother and use django :-) |
| 22:26:05 | gour | i'm sure there will be people using nimrod for web stuff, but, imho, nimrod is much stronger as general-purpose/system language |
| 22:26:56 | gour | dom96: you can also try http://ocsigen.org/ |
| 22:27:27 | dom96 | There already are, the forum is written in Nimrod and so is nimbuild. |
| 22:28:40 | gour | those are examples that web apps can be written in nimrod, but not examples which demonstrate some special advantage to go that way |
| 22:29:06 | gour | to replace C(++) is much nobler attempt, imho ;) |
| 22:29:35 | dom96 | what would you say demonstrates that a certain framework gives an advantage? |
| 22:30:14 | gour | e.g. haskell & yesod/snap offer better security |
| 22:30:29 | Araq | how so? |
| 22:30:48 | gour | type-safe language and other haskell's features |
| 22:30:49 | Araq | we have a taint mode too |
| 22:31:02 | Araq | and typed sql strings etc. |
| 22:31:30 | gour | check http://www.yesodweb.com/ |
| 22:32:44 | Araq | gour: guess what, I already read about it |
| 22:32:58 | gour | Araq: i very much appreciate your work, but nimrod is still few-man band, while e.g. haskell's ghc enjoys better support |
| 22:33:16 | Araq | of course |
| 22:33:30 | Araq | but Nimrod is not missing anything to get yesod-like security |
| 22:34:29 | gour | it could be, but does it offer something compelling that people would choose less-supported language over other alternatives? |
| 22:34:56 | gour | for simple web sites, people can continue using php/django/ror |
| 22:36:14 | gour | but apps for yesod-like frameworks are not for common devs and meant to be run on shared hosting...for such use-cases, managers decide to use more safer options |
| 22:37:18 | gour | iow, if/when nimrod gets wider support/recognition, it might become attractive for web development as well, but i firmly believe that web won't be the primary factor of its success |
| 22:37:44 | gour | of course, i may be totally wrong...so the time will tell |
| 22:39:34 | Araq | I can't see how your arguments are specific to webapps |
| 22:40:13 | Araq | you may as well bring up the same reasons why nimrod won't ever succeed for systems programming |
| 22:41:17 | gour | they're, of course, not, but nimrod might attract other kinds of developers who will then propagate the language to the 'upstream' (managers in the companies) |
| 22:41:58 | gour | for system programming, too many devs are burnt with C++ and looking for replacement |
| 22:43:12 | gour | majority of web development is done with crap...systems programming is more critical, and as i wrote in that comment, nothing really fresh is coming on the scene |
| 22:44:47 | gour | moreover, nimrod is capable to replace many usages of scripting languages and this is big market used by many programmers |
| 22:46:45 | gour | otoh, in not too distant future, mobile industry will collapse, although it does not look so at all in the present moment |
| 22:47:43 | Araq | huh? what about Rust? |
| 22:48:10 | gour | i took a short look at it, but, to be frank, it's ugly |
| 22:48:21 | dom96 | gour: what makes you think the mobile industry will collapse? |
| 22:48:29 | Araq | C++ programmers don't care about ugliness ;-) |
| 22:49:17 | gour | dom96: because such crazy race of buying much more and so often does not have strong foundation...it's like a big tree but with shallow roots |
| 22:51:43 | dom96 | Yeah, but mobile devices will always be used. And therefore always bought. |
| 22:52:08 | dom96 | It's like microwaves or refrigerators. |
| 22:52:11 | gour | when i was studying at the university (it was some years ago), one professor was saying he would require 'computer license' similar to driving license to be authorized to use computers seeing so many people just buying 'em and creating lot of problems with it |
| 22:54:09 | gour | i don't own microwave (it's very unhealthy), have use of refrigerator, although keeping food there is also not very healthy, but i graduated without having mobile phone, although it is hard to explain to today's kids how we lived happily without it. so, no, it's not essential need ;) |
| 22:55:00 | gour | that's why i'd like to see some GUI toolkit in nimrod oriented for the desktop |
| 22:55:23 | Araq | that doesn't mean people won't buy mobiles in the future :P |
| 22:57:09 | gour | they buy so often 'cause most of 'em are just sheeps, but when the bigger crisis hit us, they will have to think before deciding what to buy next |
| 23:02:13 | gour | Araq: have you seen this:_ http://cpptk.sourceforge.net/index.html |
| 23:04:42 | Araq | gour: no, I'm not interested in TCL/TK |
| 23:04:49 | Araq | we have a tcl binding btw |
| 23:05:42 | gour | so, your vote goes to claro? |
| 23:05:43 | Araq | python adopted tk as its UI toolkit and nobody uses it |
| 23:05:51 | Araq | yes |
| 23:06:08 | gour | then we should just unite forces :-) |
| 23:07:00 | Araq | ok, fine with me |
| 23:07:19 | Araq | ask for help whenever you get stuck |
| 23:07:47 | Araq | first step is to compile claro and the nimrod example using it |
| 23:09:52 | gour | what does it mean 'based on Qt" when it's, as you said, dead for some years? |
| 23:14:50 | Araq | I never said it's based on Qt |
| 23:14:56 | Araq | it's not |
| 23:15:16 | * | gour was labelled as 'happy nimrod user? on IUP list |
| 23:15:48 | gour | so, this http://cubit.sandia.gov/claro.html is something else? |
| 23:17:01 | Araq | yeah |
| 23:17:09 | Araq | never saw that site before |
| 23:17:34 | gour | arghh... |
| 23:20:04 | Araq | gour: used to be http://www.clarographics.org/ |
| 23:20:16 | Araq | but as I said, it's dead |
| 23:21:11 | gour | so, your github account is all what remains from it? |
| 23:21:20 | gour | s/account/repo |
| 23:21:24 | Araq | I think so |
| 23:21:59 | gour | ok |
| 23:22:13 | Araq | I guess that means you're out, right? |
| 23:22:33 | gour | going to sleep now...hopefully will try to check it out tomorrow |
| 23:22:41 | gour | no, i'll try it out 1st |
| 23:22:54 | Araq | alright, good night |
| 23:23:00 | gour | 'night |
| 23:23:06 | * | gour quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0) |
| 23:49:40 | reactormonk | Araq, sadly we have no fieldPairs iterator for object, do we? |
| 23:49:58 | Araq | reactormonk: we do |
| 23:50:43 | reactormonk | Araq, nice |
| 23:52:05 | reactormonk | I don't need to recompile for system.nim, do I? |
| 23:52:14 | Araq | nah |
| 23:53:13 | reactormonk | doesn't pick $ up |
| 23:54:22 | Araq | so you defined $ for object too? |
| 23:56:40 | reactormonk | proc `$`*[T: tuple|object](x: T): string = |
| 23:59:01 | Araq | well you bootstrapped, right? |
| 23:59:32 | reactormonk | Think so |