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| 00:04:56 | dom96 | good night |
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| 00:20:26 | Varriount | xtagon: What are you working on currently? |
| 00:21:48 | Skrylar | 78% done with sadness \o/ |
| 00:22:15 | vbtt | wat |
| 00:24:02 | renesac | Error: ambiguous call; both math2.isEven(x: TReal): bool and math2.isEven(x: TInteger): bool match for: (int literal(2)) |
| 00:24:14 | xtagon | Varriount, at work right now. I work for PhotoLynx (software development for the photography industry) |
| 00:24:15 | renesac | <-- we need to sort out this conversion precedence problems |
| 00:24:23 | xtagon | Varriount, what are you working on? Anything cool? |
| 00:25:31 | Varriount | xtagon: Well, I plan to stab myself this weekend with nimrod+opengl |
| 00:25:48 | xtagon | Varriount, not sure if you're a masochist, or a hero |
| 00:26:07 | xtagon | Varriount, in any case, good luck! :D |
| 00:26:10 | vbtt | Varriount:are you still thinking about implementing coroutines? |
| 00:26:34 | Varriount | vbtt: Not without Araq's help |
| 00:27:01 | vbtt | of course. he said he will mentor if it gets accepted in gsoc. |
| 00:27:14 | Skrylar | vbtt: oh, console wrappers |
| 00:27:54 | Varriount | I wish we had a Java to Nimrod converter :/ |
| 00:28:51 | Varriount | There's this one java library - libgdx - that I wish nimrod had. It was a game library that could run on android, mac, linux, and windows. |
| 00:30:21 | xtagon | Varriount, a cross-platform game library for Nimrod would be awesome. filwit is working on a game framework, but I don't know if it's cross platform or not. |
| 00:31:14 | Varriount | xtagon: I looked at a lot of cross platform game libs, and libgdx was arguably one of the best. |
| 00:31:24 | Skrylar | xtagon: so Godot bindings? :O |
| 00:31:31 | Varriount | The only drawback was that it was written in Java. |
| 00:31:47 | xtagon | Skrylar, huh? |
| 00:31:50 | Discoloda | anything written in Java is a large drawback |
| 00:31:57 | Skrylar | xtagon: http://godotengine.com |
| 00:32:35 | Skrylar | alternatively, Allegro 5.x is still nice |
| 00:32:39 | Skrylar | there's also Orx |
| 00:33:19 | xtagon | Skrylar, haven't had a chance to try Godot yet. |
| 00:33:27 | reactormonk | Discoloda, unless you have scala and TACC |
| 00:33:33 | xtagon | Skrylar, is it written in C/C++ or something that could be wrapped in Nimrod? |
| 00:33:45 | Skrylar | xtagon: yeah, its done in C++ but uses a custom scripting language |
| 00:33:56 | Skrylar | to their credit they explained why |
| 00:34:38 | Skrylar | they've been using it in-house for the past ~10 years, and the scripting system is basically the same 'scripts on nodes' system Unity uses |
| 00:35:00 | Skrylar | but yeah, one could write modules for it using nimrod |
| 00:36:09 | xtagon | Skrylar, what is the benefit of using a scripting language in a game as opposed to just writing it native? Easier cross platformness? |
| 00:36:21 | Skrylar | Writing game code native in C++ sucks for one |
| 00:36:37 | xtagon | Skrylar, yes, but let's assume it would suck much less in Nimrod |
| 00:36:45 | xtagon | for the sake of this conversation |
| 00:37:05 | renesac | fast iteration w/o having to recompile? |
| 00:37:07 | renesac | sandboxing? |
| 00:37:19 | Skrylar | yeah, sandboxing is one. Plus you can store scripts in a scene, which means you know |
| 00:37:23 | Skrylar | Modders can make maps |
| 00:37:29 | xtagon | Ah |
| 00:37:31 | Skrylar | and your triggers still work |
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| 00:37:52 | Skrylar | Unity does stupid crap like tag "put script #48 on this node" which means modders can't actually put behavior in the scene without you writing your own anyway |
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| 00:38:04 | Skrylar | whereas Godot can actually put scripts INSIDE the map files, like Unreal does |
| 00:39:05 | fowl | what i am writing is turning into j-exprs |
| 00:39:14 | Skrylar | but yeah its largely an issue of supporting mods, not having to recompile massive amounts of code for every minute change, and sometimes the scripting language is specialized differently (e.g. is specifically tuned for an actor model) |
| 00:39:20 | Discoloda | you can put QC scripts into maps in Quake 1 |
| 00:39:56 | fowl | "logic": ["<", ["entities-alive", ["group", "asteroids"]], 100] |
| 00:40:12 | Skrylar | looks like a painful lisp |
| 00:40:33 | * | Skrylar wonders about that quote where "every system will end up with a [poorly done] reimplementation of CLOS" |
| 00:41:13 | Discoloda | same can be said of erlang processes and message passing |
| 00:41:25 | Skrylar | erlang processes are kinda nice |
| 00:41:57 | Varriount | While I don't mind game engines, I tend to prefer frameworks/libraries that don't force you into a certain design. |
| 00:42:05 | Skrylar | not really doable for most architectures though; i mean, they built the VM to specifically support hot reload and shipping live code between machines |
| 00:42:45 | Varriount | The only thing I won't touch is Unity, mainly because of how... commercial it is. |
| 00:42:53 | Skrylar | Varriount: eh, its give or take |
| 00:42:58 | Discoloda | Varriount: i think if you want a game engine like godot or Unity, it would be best to build it in three pieces. the framework, the engine, and the editor |
| 00:43:01 | fowl | Skrylar, im already using json to define entities and everything else in the "game", i think it works nicely |
| 00:43:15 | Skrylar | Modular is nice because anyone can use Horde3D or OGRE in weird ways |
| 00:43:19 | Skrylar | but |
| 00:43:22 | Skrylar | Wasteful |
| 00:43:25 | Varriount | Discoloda: I don't want a game engine, a library would be nice. |
| 00:43:30 | Discoloda | and allow the framework to be used seperatly |
| 00:43:59 | Skrylar | Consider OGRE basically has half of an asset manager as part of the core, and a game engine needs to track more than just the ones OGRE supports. So now you have two asset managers onboard you don't need |
| 00:44:16 | Skrylar | Most of the renderer's i know of work like this |
| 00:46:14 | Skrylar | Discoloda: the editors *are* separate... |
| 00:47:37 | Discoloda | doesnt Unity compile a game, embedding the engine |
| 00:48:08 | Discoloda | and i dont think it has an exposed "engine library/framework" |
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| 00:56:01 | Skrylar | no, its "scripted" using C# |
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| 01:05:21 | Skrylar | okay, did a full bind for ncurses.h; i'll prod it in to compiling after dinnerfood |
| 01:11:37 | filwit | xtagon: my game engine is based off SDL2 and OpenGL. Will be fully cross-platform, sans Xbox/WP8 (at least initially) |
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| 01:12:41 | filwit | though my personal motivations towards Linux and Steam OS will be a big focus |
| 01:13:06 | filwit | i have to take off, later folks |
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| 02:13:27 | vbtt | can i do compile time type introspection? e.g. list all fields of an object type? |
| 02:15:55 | vbtt | i found typeinfo/fields() - but i think that's runtime |
| 02:16:24 | OrionPK | why not try them at compile time |
| 02:16:34 | vbtt | yeah i will. |
| 02:16:37 | OrionPK | you can do a lot of stuff at compile time w/ compile time procs and macros |
| 02:17:45 | vbtt | right. i'm trying to implement parseJsonAs(jsonString, MyObject) |
| 02:18:07 | vbtt | it should create a new MyObject and fill in the fields, if they match the json. |
| 02:20:14 | vbtt | golang does something similar in its standard json lib and is very useful. |
| 02:23:01 | fowl | vbtt, the marshal module uses runtime type info |
| 02:23:15 | fowl | idk about compiletime |
| 02:25:02 | vbtt | fowl:thx |
| 02:25:11 | vbtt | compiletime is not strictly necessary |
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| 03:35:20 | Skrylar | eh, go uses rtti for that because they lack good compile time type information :) |
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| 04:23:19 | Skrylar | hmmm |
| 04:23:29 | Skrylar | Apparently I made the compiler lock up |
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| 05:14:08 | Skrylar | interesting |
| 05:14:16 | Skrylar | semtypes.nim(695) liftParamType |
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| 07:59:12 | Skrylar | You know what would be really strange for nimrod? |
| 07:59:17 | Skrylar | LADSPA support |
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| 10:52:51 | Skrylar | Araq: okay, i made a source file that infinite loops the compiler somehow; poke me later and i'll post it, i also got that same file working but i can duplicate the compiler lockup with the unfixed .nim |
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| 11:01:42 | Araq | skyfex: poke. make a bug report |
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| 11:08:44 | Araq | Skrylar: poke. make a bug report |
| 11:08:57 | Araq | skyfex: ignore what I said to you |
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| 13:00:15 | Araq | hi girvo wb |
| 13:00:41 | girvo | Hey Araq! Sorry I've been awol, just started a new contract so have been flat-out |
| 13:01:05 | Araq | bah, you said you would help with everything :P |
| 13:01:36 | Araq | nimrod needs you, please stay |
| 13:03:24 | girvo | Araq: I will I will :) it's only an 11 week contract anyway, I needed to get some money lol |
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| 16:28:05 | dom96 | Seems namecheap is under attack so you guys may have some problems resolving nimrod-lang.org |
| 16:28:21 | dom96 | http://status.namecheap.com/?p=14846 |
| 16:29:07 | EXetoC | oh no |
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| 16:40:31 | OrionPK | fucking asshats |
| 16:41:33 | OrionPK | cant access the nim-lang forum |
| 16:41:43 | OrionPK | or some of my own domains |
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| 18:18:23 | Varriount | Why do people ddos domains? |
| 18:18:56 | dom96 | Why do people DDoS? |
| 18:20:31 | OrionPK | because they're fuckwits |
| 18:22:22 | Matthias247 | :) |
| 18:25:25 | carum | is that what's happening right now? :( |
| 18:27:11 | * | nande joined #nimrod |
| 18:27:26 | reactormonk | dom96, now that would explain certain things |
| 18:28:22 | Discoloda | reactormonk: everytime i see your name, i think of Ascension the card game |
| 18:28:27 | reactormonk | Discoloda, indeed |
| 18:30:12 | Discoloda | ah, you know of the game? |
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| 18:41:30 | reactormonk | exactly |
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| 18:52:54 | filwit | macro blah(size:int) # 'size' is a PNimrodNode ? How to get it's value?.. Macros.intVal(size) seems to work, but then $ of the value gives me a "can't evaluate at compiletime" error |
| 18:54:35 | reactormonk | filwit, that's because Macros.intVal only gives you a placeholder for the variable? |
| 18:54:38 | Araq | macros.intVal is the thing, yeah |
| 18:55:07 | filwit | hmm.. repr might work instead of $ |
| 18:55:35 | Araq | try size: static[int] |
| 18:55:47 | Araq | then 'size' is an int in the marco's body |
| 18:56:00 | Araq | and then think about it why it makes perfect sense this way :P |
| 18:56:04 | filwit | Araq: awesome, thanks. will try |
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| 18:57:42 | filwit | Araq: though this isn't the problem i'm having (since Macros.intVal worked), though i didn't know about the static[int] thing (and that's nice to know). What seems to be the problem is when i do "..." & $size |
| 18:57:57 | filwit | Error: Can't evaluate at compile-time |
| 18:58:19 | filwit | (on the $size part) |
| 18:59:09 | filwit | i'm trying to answer this guys question on the forums (about generating matrices), and was going to use Macros.eval() to shorten the code, but maybe i'll just write it all out with nodes.. |
| 18:59:33 | Araq | yeah the $ thing not working looks like a bug |
| 18:59:54 | filwit | okay. will use nodes then |
| 18:59:59 | Araq | the guy's question makes no sense to me |
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| 19:00:17 | Araq | the manual has an example of how to define matrixes |
| 19:00:34 | Araq | and dependent types have nothing to do with it |
| 19:01:15 | Araq | what's up with dependent types recently anyway? it's not like *any* non accademic language has them |
| 19:01:46 | filwit | he probably is only using 'matrix' as an example. He wan't to know how to generate types with similar structure, but have fancy things (like size*size array length) |
| 19:01:57 | * | brson joined #nimrod |
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| 19:06:05 | dom96 | gah, namecheap is still screwed. |
| 19:06:59 | filwit | damn.. there's no way i can answer this guys question without $(size) working since he wants the size part of the typename |
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| 19:07:20 | Araq | hi felipejoys welcome |
| 19:07:22 | dom96 | Araq: Do this please: https://www.namecheap.com/support/knowledgebase/article.aspx/923/10/what-is-the-difference-between-your-dns-system-v-1-and-v-2 |
| 19:07:59 | Araq | brb |
| 19:08:10 | felipejoys | Thanks, was that auto or did you type that out |
| 19:08:28 | dom96 | Or we can just wait until they fix their DNS servers. |
| 19:08:37 | dom96 | felipejoys: He typed it out. Welcome :) |
| 19:08:51 | felipejoys | Thank you. Frst timer. |
| 19:09:41 | felipejoys | *FIrst |
| 19:10:26 | filwit | dom96: 68, for the record |
| 19:10:32 | filwit | :) |
| 19:11:07 | filwit | nevermind, zahary's logged in tree times... |
| 19:11:09 | felipejoys | I'm sort of a newbie, and I haven't used nimrod yet |
| 19:11:15 | felipejoys | I did just download it though |
| 19:11:21 | felipejoys | DOes it have networking libs? |
| 19:11:50 | filwit | felipejoys: standard libs can be found here: http://nimrod-lang.org/lib.html |
| 19:16:34 | felipejoys | Thanks, I'll check them out |
| 19:18:13 | felipejoys | This all looks like fun :p |
| 19:19:06 | filwit | "fun and party all day" is Nimrod's official slogan |
| 19:19:13 | filwit | (just kidding, it really isn't) |
| 19:19:23 | filwit | (but it is fun, i agree) |
| 19:19:30 | felipejoys | XD |
| 19:19:46 | felipejoys | Is nimrod a good language for a beginner to learn? Most of my experience comse from game maker studio........... |
| 19:21:25 | filwit | I think Nimrod is a good language to learn for a beginner. Constructs in Nimrod are straight forward. You're not going to have to wrap your head around complex inheritance models any whatnot in the beginning... that said, Nimrod goes really deep with meta-programming, and that part will take you awhile (but it's really powerful!) |
| 19:21:40 | filwit | Ultimately, you'll just have to try it out and see |
| 19:22:14 | renesac | the problem for a beginner is the lack of tutorials aimed to beginners |
| 19:22:23 | felipejoys | I don't have a clue of what meta=programming is |
| 19:22:29 | filwit | yes, that is unfortunately true |
| 19:22:56 | renesac | I would recommend learning python, then C, then nimrod |
| 19:24:05 | Varriount | renesac: Or do like I did, and go from python, then being forced to write java, to nimrod |
| 19:24:20 | renesac | yeah |
| 19:24:49 | Varriount | Though, Java tends to restrict your programming to such an extent that it limits your thinking |
| 19:24:55 | filwit | why would you suggest somebody new learn C? Memory issues are the biggest challenge for a programmer to get grips with |
| 19:25:07 | renesac | well: an scripting language (python, lua, ruby), then an "compiled language" that deals with native types (C, Java, etc) |
| 19:25:27 | Varriount | nimrod does deal with native types :3 |
| 19:25:54 | renesac | yes, but we don't have tutorials aimed at beginners for that, that is why |
| 19:26:28 | renesac | filwit, C shows you what the computer is doing (well, almost, but apart from assembly it is the best) |
| 19:26:43 | renesac | and why things are efficient or inefficient |
| 19:26:49 | renesac | how pointers work, etc |
| 19:26:59 | felipejoys | I never quite understood pointers |
| 19:27:01 | filwit | renesac: yes.. thus my question "why would you suggest it for a new programmer?" |
| 19:27:14 | Varriount | It's either learn C, or have an unholy passion for reading about it and the inner workings of a computer. |
| 19:27:22 | Varriount | (I did the latter) |
| 19:27:23 | felipejoys | I followed a book, but the last chapter was pointers. So I had to stop cuz I didn't get it when I tried |
| 19:27:46 | renesac | well, after learning python, he isn't a totaly new programmer anymore |
| 19:27:49 | Varriount | felipejoys: Pointers are pieces of data which point to a section of memory. |
| 19:28:17 | filwit | honestly, I would just learn a very basic language first, like Javascript.. It's easy to wrap your head around, and easy to play with (just drop a html file into a browser) |
| 19:28:19 | Varriount | Like writing down your address on a piece of paper |
| 19:28:32 | Varriount | Javascript is wierd. |
| 19:28:40 | renesac | yeah, python, javascript, lua, ruby... |
| 19:28:48 | renesac | what floats your boat as scripting language |
| 19:29:00 | Varriount | But not bad-wierd, just wierd-wierd |
| 19:29:20 | renesac | I suggested python because it is the most similar to nimrod |
| 19:29:24 | filwit | i hate Javascript with a passion.. doesn't mean it's not a good starting place for newbs |
| 19:29:25 | renesac | IMHO |
| 19:29:44 | felipejoys | Varriount: okay so a pointer is a memory section filled with data that points to another section of memory |
| 19:30:04 | felipejoys | Right? But I don't know quite what to do with it |
| 19:30:06 | Matthias247 | filwit: it's the same for me. But javascript is very trendy for beginners because it looks easy |
| 19:30:09 | renesac | http://learncodethehardway.org/ <-- this course is good |
| 19:30:17 | Matthias247 | but it has so many pitfalls |
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| 19:30:37 | Varriount | felipejoys: You use it to tell other parts of the program where data is, without copying the data to new sections of memory. |
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| 19:31:12 | felipejoys | Like a system path,, when windows know by just a string where something is located? something like that? |
| 19:31:21 | felipejoys | even when it varies on different computers |
| 19:31:39 | Varriount | It's much easier for me to hand you a piece of paper with my address on it, and have you give that to your friends, then for me to copy my house and give it to you. |
| 19:31:43 | Matthias247 | Varriount: I also l did first understand pointers when I thought of them as memory adresses. I never liked the "pointer points to xyz" explanaitons from my first programming lessons :) |
| 19:32:06 | Varriount | felipejoys: Not quite like the path variable |
| 19:32:35 | Varriount | Matthias247: My education in programming is very.. haphazard. |
| 19:32:59 | felipejoys | I meant one of those system paths like %indows or something, that everry windows computer will know where the program and files folder is... not just a regular pathing |
| 19:33:01 | Varriount | I enjoy reading a great deal, so I'll read about things that I have no actual experience in. |
| 19:33:05 | Matthias247 | wow, I didn't know the word haphazard :) |
| 19:33:10 | Varriount | felipejoys: Sorta |
| 19:34:05 | Varriount | felipejoys: In lower level programming languages, data that is passed to functions is copied into the function |
| 19:34:27 | Varriount | Which means memory must be allocated |
| 19:35:08 | Varriount | If I pass a huge data structure to a function, the entire thing will be copied, which isn't very efficient |
| 19:35:11 | renesac | felipejoys, http://www.ntu.edu.sg/home/ehchua/programming/cpp/images/MemoryAddressContent.png |
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| 19:35:40 | filwit | bbl |
| 19:35:41 | renesac | the 'content' column is your computer memory |
| 19:36:10 | Varriount | But if I pass a pointer, which is ussually quite small (the size of an int) then I'm only copying a small amount of memory, while still allowing a function to access the actual data |
| 19:36:20 | renesac | it is full of bytes, and each byte has an adress (the address column) |
| 19:37:00 | renesac | FF is a byte with the value 255 in hexadecimal |
| 19:37:30 | renesac | some datatypes are larger than one byte (the pointer itself (last item in that example) is 4 bytes) |
| 19:38:03 | Varriount | renesac: Aren't memory regions split into 4 bytes? Or was it 4 bits? |
| 19:38:32 | renesac | it stores the number 90000000 that is the address of the first element in the example |
| 19:38:41 | renesac | Varriount, no, neither of those |
| 19:39:07 | renesac | it is adressable byte by byte, and you may think it is split by pages |
| 19:39:21 | renesac | a page is usually 4KB, unless it is a huge page |
| 19:39:37 | renesac | page size is architecture dependent |
| 19:39:59 | Matthias247 | though data structures will usually get aligned at 4 or 8 byte multiples |
| 19:40:07 | renesac | yes |
| 19:40:17 | Varriount | ^^ That's what I was thinking |
| 19:40:18 | Matthias247 | depending on 32bit or 64bit mode of your CPU |
| 19:40:43 | renesac | and some architectures, like some PPC, MIPS, ARM, etc, don't like to load unaligned values |
| 19:40:44 | Matthias247 | reading is faster when data is aligned. But you can also do unaligned things |
| 19:41:10 | renesac | on modern x86, unaligned loads are almost as fast as aligned ones |
| 19:41:34 | renesac | except for SIMD, where you need more alignment |
| 19:41:53 | renesac | but even there things are improving |
| 19:42:37 | felipejoys | Sorry, reading now. I'm working atm |
| 19:43:38 | renesac | Matthias247, http://attractivechaos.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/does-packed-struct-hurt-performance-on-x86_64/ |
| 19:43:42 | felipejoys | So a pointer is like a variable that holds a reference? |
| 19:43:48 | renesac | yes |
| 19:44:19 | felipejoys | And I should use it instead of copying huge amount of stuff |
| 19:44:22 | felipejoys | Right? |
| 19:44:30 | renesac | usually, yes |
| 19:44:39 | felipejoys | Okay... that was through |
| 19:44:55 | renesac | in higher level languages it is many times done automatically for you |
| 19:45:21 | felipejoys | I heard I have to clean the memory in c and c++, which is why I avoid those |
| 19:45:30 | felipejoys | Sounds.. really troublesome |
| 19:45:47 | renesac | more or less |
| 19:46:15 | felipejoys | Do I have to clean the memory in nimrod? |
| 19:46:23 | renesac | you can have memory leaks on GCed languages if you keep unused pointers around |
| 19:46:29 | renesac | felipejoys, usually no |
| 19:46:40 | Matthias247 | I you have the experience and good guidelines for it it's not that bad. But for the beginning a language with automatic memory management is easier,, because you don't have to learn everything at once |
| 19:46:51 | renesac | yes |
| 19:47:10 | felipejoys | well that's a huge plus for picking nimrod then |
| 19:47:24 | Matthias247 | I had to start with pascal :-) |
| 19:47:43 | felipejoys | I started with c++, but gave up on pointers cuz I didn't get them back then |
| 19:48:00 | felipejoys | Then moved to game engines like game maker... which to me are productive |
| 19:48:27 | felipejoys | (PAnd visual) |
| 19:48:43 | Matthias247 | if you want to have fast success hat games then C# and Unity are for sure worth a look |
| 19:49:15 | felipejoys | I'm into 2d so I'll pass on unity, c# is really object oriented and I have to grasp that too |
| 19:49:33 | felipejoys | Haven't gotten much into it |
| 19:50:17 | felipejoys | I wanna do coding now though... |
| 19:50:17 | reactormonk | renesac, I don't know C, and I'm still here ;-) |
| 19:50:59 | reactormonk | felipejoys, one of the downsides of nimrod is there aren't too many fancy documentations on how to start programming the same time you start coding nimrod |
| 19:51:02 | Matthias247 | objects are everywhere. Only the trendy functional guys seem to hate them :) |
| 19:51:27 | reactormonk | Matthias247, I prefer functional, but I use objects there too. They just shouldn't change state ;-) |
| 19:51:33 | felipejoys | No I like objects, but there's so much stuff like inheritance and such |
| 19:51:54 | reactormonk | felipejoys, you can't have too much inheritance in nimrod, because of value-based objects |
| 19:52:15 | reactormonk | felipejoys, if you add a field in a subclass, the object just became bigger than the space allocated for the superclass |
| 19:52:50 | reactormonk | for `true' inheritance, you need references. |
| 19:53:05 | felipejoys | I would probably follow better if I knew what value-based meant, and in comparison to what heh |
| 19:53:32 | Matthias247 | inheritance is also not that difficult. multiple-inheritance is a real mess, but apart from C++ it's used nowhere |
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| 19:55:07 | felipejoys | YOu guys know your code, heh, I'm just trying to make this specific app that doeosn't exist yet |
| 19:55:18 | felipejoys | That I really really want lol |
| 19:55:37 | Matthias247 | You might simply start with Nimrod and maybe SDL as a 2d graphics framework to play around with some basic stuff |
| 19:55:47 | Discoloda | python its used a lot, I know in particular it is used a lot in the Django framework |
| 19:56:22 | Matthias247 | I used SDL many years ago (in c++) and remember it as quite easy |
| 19:56:31 | felipejoys | I know this a socially retarded question, but if you guys were hired (yes by me) to make something that (I think) is relatively kinda simple, how much would you ask for it |
| 19:57:11 | felipejoys | And yes I know how socially retarded thsi questoin is, but even any KIND of answer would help me :P |
| 19:58:19 | EXetoC | sure, anything that has to do with business is retarded :> |
| 19:59:01 | felipejoys | even an "I wouldn't do it" or "i charge on a line basis" would help |
| 19:59:45 | Matthias247 | I wouldn't do it unless you are a company with enough money to rip off :-) |
| 19:59:52 | EXetoC | seems like a normal question to me |
| 20:00:02 | EXetoC | per-line charge eh? interesting |
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| 20:00:57 | felipejoys | I don't have a compan and I'm not rich but yes I am willing to pay |
| 20:01:02 | felipejoys | *company |
| 20:01:06 | filwit | per-line charge? writes inline-asm everywhere.. |
| 20:01:34 | felipejoys | Well your ethic would be in place and I would ask someone to review it probably. Or something. |
| 20:01:42 | Matthias247 | unfortunatly lines-of-code metrics are still beloved |
| 20:01:44 | felipejoys | (directed to filwit ) |
| 20:02:03 | filwit | lol, :P |
| 20:02:06 | Matthias247 | there are a lot of good tutorials and books out there |
| 20:02:20 | Matthias247 | don't think you need to pay someone especially for you |
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| 20:02:38 | felipejoys | I would like to though, cuz I see coding as my hobby and not as my living |
| 20:02:46 | * | nande quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 20:02:48 | felipejoys | Also I don't have that much spare time |
| 20:02:58 | filwit | felipejoys, real question: what kind of app are you trying to make? |
| 20:02:59 | felipejoys | I don't know howo mnuch spare time it wouldl take, even |
| 20:03:13 | felipejoys | Uhh, a collaborative pixel art app |
| 20:03:19 | felipejoys | For windows |
| 20:03:28 | felipejoys | Think GraphicsGale but "multiplayer" |
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| 20:03:34 | filwit | ahh, cool. like iScribble or PaintChat? |
| 20:03:41 | felipejoys | "for windows" I mean not android other mobile |
| 20:03:48 | felipejoys | *nor |
| 20:03:57 | * | Varriount can do the network protocol |
| 20:03:57 | felipejoys | Well it could be but it's mostly for myself and friends so |
| 20:04:14 | felipejoys | There is no website for pixel art |
| 20:04:26 | felipejoys | Nor app |
| 20:04:27 | filwit | iScribble can do pixel art |
| 20:04:29 | felipejoys | Like collaborative |
| 20:04:35 | filwit | just zoom-in |
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| 20:04:44 | felipejoys | I don't think so, it doesn't have a grid and the tolls aren't pecific |
| 20:04:57 | filwit | you create a private board |
| 20:05:10 | filwit | and you can zoom really far in, though there's no grid, true |
| 20:05:51 | filwit | if it's just for a "amoung friends" thing, that's probably how you can do it right now without a custom-made app |
| 20:06:27 | Varriount | filwit: But he also wants something to help him get deeper into programming. |
| 20:06:43 | felipejoys | It's kinda the opposite |
| 20:06:51 | felipejoys | I'm into that kind of coding atm cuz of that app |
| 20:07:10 | felipejoys | Usually I would be fine playing with game maker and making pixel art :P |
| 20:07:25 | * | Varriount shudders at the thought of game maker |
| 20:07:38 | Varriount | Sorry, I have.. bad memories |
| 20:07:51 | felipejoys | I used to compare it to pure codnig, but actually gm is okayish. it is only for 2d but it does a good job at it to me |
| 20:07:52 | felipejoys | np |
| 20:07:59 | felipejoys | It's just my opinion :) |
| 20:08:13 | felipejoys | it even has native networking nowadays |
| 20:08:20 | felipejoys | okay now im just avertising, sorry offtopic |
| 20:08:38 | felipejoys | DONT GET GM! ITLL TURN YOU INTO LAZY |
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| 20:09:10 | felipejoys | But yeah I would like to pay someone as a freelance job just for this app |
| 20:09:36 | felipejoys | a paint tool with online, but not as a central server |
| 20:09:39 | felipejoys | ip connect, you know? |
| 20:09:43 | felipejoys | (of course you do .-.) |
| 20:09:48 | reactormonk | felipejoys, beware that developing is kinda expensive, and it also requires maintenance etc. |
| 20:10:39 | felipejoys | I'm sure it's not that cheap but i don't want photshop multiplayer heh |
| 20:10:58 | felipejoys | more like something with less tools than windows paint and more exclusive to pixel art |
| 20:12:10 | reactormonk | felipejoys, collaboration sync is possible, there are algorithms for that, but it's not trivial. |
| 20:12:34 | filwit | it's not that hard either though... |
| 20:13:02 | filwit | if i had more time, i would take you up on that offer, felipejoys |
| 20:13:18 | felipejoys | how much would you charge me to do it? |
| 20:13:25 | felipejoys | i would save until you do have the time |
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| 20:14:15 | filwit | dunno exactly, haven't charged anyone for this kind of thing before. would have to spend time thinking about each peice to give you a realistic quote |
| 20:14:43 | felipejoys | I see |
| 20:15:15 | renesac | felipejoys, you could try asking iScribble for a grid and some extra tools |
| 20:16:06 | Varriount | http://blog.interfacevision.com/design/design-visual-progarmming-languages-snapshots/ |
| 20:16:20 | felipejoys | That is true, I'll give it a shot, maybe it'll work out |
| 20:16:22 | Varriount | The good, the bad, and the... odd |
| 20:16:49 | filwit | nah, iScribble hasn't been updated in years. Doubt they'll add any more features to it |
| 20:16:50 | OrionPK | dom96 is namecheap back up |
| 20:17:10 | dom96 | OrionPK: Still down for me. |
| 20:17:24 | filwit | i remember asking one of the upper-admins about it awhile back, said others have requested similar tools/updates to no avail |
| 20:17:36 | OrionPK | hrmm |
| 20:17:44 | OrionPK | where is that status? |
| 20:18:00 | dom96 | I can't even load their status page now. |
| 20:18:12 | dom96 | status.namecheap.com |
| 20:18:21 | OrionPK | i cant even load that |
| 20:18:44 | reactormonk | Varriount, lighttable in there? ^^ |
| 20:18:46 | felipejoys | okay, just to make sure, I'm really serious about that freelance app I would pay someone for |
| 20:19:02 | felipejoys | It could take you a couple months or more, i wouldn't mind, I want it :( |
| 20:19:12 | Varriount | I can load nimrod's website, but it appears to be an old version - the news is old |
| 20:19:24 | reactormonk | felipejoys, best thing is if you split it into parts and check with people if your estimantes are realistic to build the parts |
| 20:19:46 | felipejoys | reactormonk: I kind of have no idea. |
| 20:20:05 | felipejoys | I would be saving and checking with a couple of people I do know that program i fit's reasonable |
| 20:20:13 | felipejoys | if it's* |
| 20:20:16 | reactormonk | felipejoys, get one, then come back if you want to spend money. You can also pay someone to do that for you, but there aren't too many designers in this channel |
| 20:21:10 | Varriount | reactormonk: Yep, although the screenshot seems to be broken |
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| 20:22:26 | filwit | felipejoys: i sent you a PM |
| 20:22:38 | felipejoys | oh so thats where that sound came from |
| 20:22:41 | felipejoys | sorry, reading it |
| 20:22:45 | filwit | ;P |
| 20:25:31 | Varriount | Anybody here checked out micklat's nimborg? |
| 20:28:19 | felipejoys | G2g, thanks everyone |
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| 20:42:36 | xtagon | OrionPK, do you mean Namecheap's website is back up, or their DNS service? |
| 20:42:49 | xtagon | OrionPK, because I'm still having DNS issues with them |
| 20:43:48 | OrionPK | xtagon i didnt say it was back up |
| 20:44:16 | xtagon | OrionPK, I misread "is namecheap back up" for "namecheap is back up" heh |
| 20:51:06 | OrionPK | im able to get to status.namecheap.com now though |
| 20:51:53 | xtagon | The status page said to switch to DNS v1 as a workaround |
| 20:52:00 | OrionPK | ah |
| 20:52:17 | xtagon | Luckily all my important domains were using CloudFlare DNS |
| 20:54:33 | skyfex | Araq: How was the semantics of this code decided? https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/blob/devel/tests/exception/tfinally.nim |
| 20:54:51 | skyfex | As far as I can see the code is quite ambigous, so I wouldn't have known how to resolve it |
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| 21:01:03 | skyfex | Hmmm.. if it were me, I might have made return in a final-stmt a compiler error. Is there a use-case for that? |
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| 21:21:21 | tinAndi | hi, i was able to create my first win32api program :) but if i start the .exe also a terminalwindow appears. Is there a commandline switch for the compiler to create gui prgrams? |
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| 21:23:21 | EXetoC | you should be able to find it if you look |
| 21:24:20 | EXetoC | actually, I've never used --app, but I think it's of relevance |
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| 21:32:01 | tinAndi | thank you, that was the hint i needed. i should have seen it. it's --app:gui |
| 21:32:45 | EXetoC | tinAndi: *highlight* |
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| 21:34:26 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod devel 20948c3 Zahary Karadjov [+0 ±2 -0]: fix #945 |
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| 21:46:45 | tinAndi | btw: UINT = int32 is the only type that is not exported from windows.nim. i do not know why, but is there a reason? (i needed half an hour to find out ;) |
| 21:52:30 | reactormonk | tinAndi, maybe because it's defined somewhere else? |
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| 21:56:19 | tinAndi | i don't know i startet with the wingui.nim example and uint is the only basic type missing. it's in windows.nim, and there it is the only ,so called 'basic type' that is not exported. |
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| 22:23:44 | reactormonk | tinAndi, hm. open an issue. |
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| 22:29:38 | EXetoC | tinAndi: system.nim defines uint |
| 22:31:48 | EXetoC | so perhaps it should be renamed or something. anyway, just use int32 instead if you want |
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| 22:54:18 | EXetoC | tinAndi: a couple more at least |
| 22:55:09 | fowlmouth | tinAndi, that uint should probably be replaced with system.cuint |
| 22:58:12 | EXetoC | I was just assuming that there's a good reason why they're all signed |
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| 23:14:36 | tinAndi | win32api seems not very popular in new (and not so new) languages... |
| 23:15:13 | tinAndi | maybe that's why all the people stick with visual studio ... |
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| 23:20:59 | EXetoC | using the API directly really is that common? |
| 23:21:53 | Matthias247 | using winapi directly is a mess :) |
| 23:23:10 | Matthias247 | tinAndi: there's your question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17275710/console-opens-when-running-gui-c-application |
| 23:23:11 | tinAndi | for small programs, that you like to give away it's much better than using gtk+ or wxwindows there are not installed on a basic window machine |
| 23:23:31 | tinAndi | .net nowadays is on every windowmachine |
| 23:24:13 | Matthias247 | I use c# apps for gui nowadays |
| 23:24:28 | Matthias247 | it's so much more convenient :) |
| 23:29:28 | tinAndi | haha, i just program for fun :) as a hobby and i like my apps to be portable and small (focused to windows) but you are correct .net is the way to go nowadays. api programming is a mess |
| 23:31:13 | tinAndi | but api programs are really small and have no dependences |
| 23:31:43 | EXetoC | ~1 dependency :> |
| 23:32:10 | Matthias247 | there's also no real dependency for .net programs, because it also comes preinstalled :) |
| 23:32:21 | Matthias247 | but just do what you like :-) |
| 23:32:47 | Matthias247 | and of course interfacing nimrod with .net would be hard :) |
| 23:34:05 | tinAndi | :) sure becouse i do it for fun (and hey, try to setup a windows hook with .net ;) have fun) |
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| 23:35:23 | tinAndi | i just have to learn more about nimrod (sometimes it is easy but sometimes it is really weired) ... |
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| 23:39:10 | tinAndi | bye |
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| 23:55:13 | reactormonk | btw, is there an org-mode babel for nimrod? |
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