<< 20-10-2013 >>
00:01:51Araqdsrw: maybe astToStr suffices
00:03:32dsrwAraq: Thanks a lot. Looking at that now.
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00:17:02Araqgood night
00:20:30dsrwAraq: Thanks. I couldn't get what I wanted in a proc, but astToStr in a template did the trick
00:20:32dsrwhttps://gist.github.com/dsrw/7063228
00:22:14AraqOrionPK: also useful is the a & " " &? b concat operator that I just invented :P
00:22:31OrionPKwhats it do?
00:22:39Araqit concatenates a and b unless b is empty in which case it produces ""
00:22:57OrionPKthat is actually useful, shouldnt & just handle that?
00:23:24Araqno
00:23:31OrionPKshould throw an error?
00:23:35Araqdsrw: yup, works as intended
00:24:31AraqOrionPK: maybe you should look at the example I gave and you know ... use your brain
00:25:48dsrwAraq: Awesome. I'm just trying to get a feel for how far I can get without templates/macros. I appreciate the help.
00:27:30OrionPKAraq what am I not getting
00:30:42AraqOrionPK: it's obvious that & can't handle this case and throwing an error is wrong too
00:31:15OrionPKdoes '&' not already throw an error if you pass in a nil string?
00:32:21OrionPKseems like it would be an 'illegal storage access'
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00:34:21AraqI'm not talking about 'nil'
00:35:49OrionPKah
00:36:08OrionPKi thought you meant concatenate a & b unless b is nil, in which case it's ""
00:36:32OrionPKbut you meant the end result of a &? b is "" if b is nil
00:38:26Araqnot I meant a &? b is "" if b is ""
00:38:41OrionPKI thought you meant "something" &? nil == "something"
00:38:43Araqit's useful when 'a' is a separator
00:38:48OrionPKnot "something" &? nil == ""
00:39:06Araq"," &? "" == ""
00:40:16OrionPKyeah, that's cool
00:40:49OrionPKI also think "something" & nil == "something" instead of "SIGSEGV" would be nice
00:43:06Araq*shrug* 'nil' for strings is on its way out anyway
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00:45:13OrionPKcould be another nillable type with a $ operator
00:45:35OrionPKbut I guess that would be up to the implementor of that type
00:48:57Araq& doesn't invoke $
00:49:01Araqgood night
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02:21:03VarriountAraq, I'm looking at that Axis of Eval blog. Specifically the post on adding features to C++
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03:10:20VarriountAraq, I'm looking at that Axis of Eval blog. Specifically the post on adding features to C++
03:10:27VarriountGah, wrong terminal
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05:08:35VarriountAraq, any reason not to have a deleteRange, or a delete procedure that accepts ranges, for generic sequences? strutils already has a similar function for strings..
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05:36:17VarriountAnd a corresponding insertRange function as well? (Or would creating a new sequence be more efficient?)
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08:24:32AraqVarriount: we wait for 'generic' until we get ranges, I think; personally I don't like ranges because of NIH
08:26:36Araqhttp://nimrod-code.org/blog/writetracking.html
08:26:48AraqI decided I have no time, so I released it finally
08:26:51Araqsee you later
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12:08:51dom96hello xybre, welcome.
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13:40:17exhuhi
13:45:13BitPuffinI'm trying ocaml
13:45:34BitPuffinlet rodrigue = "The cid"; let diegue = "cid's father" how do I fix that lise?
13:45:42BitPuffinI tried putting a space before the ;
13:50:08exhuif someone can help http://forum.nimrod-code.org/t/284
13:50:27BitPuffinwoop
13:50:32BitPuffinwrong irc :P
13:51:12*BitPuffin is playing with ocaml
13:54:05dom96exhu: Have you tried binding TPaulinaContext.dpy ?
13:56:50exhubind TPaulinaContext.dpy gives Error: illformed AST: TPaulinaContext.dpy
13:58:17dom96You could create an accessor proc and then bind it as a workaround
13:58:38dom96I think templates will become binding by default in the future.
13:58:39exhudom96, too many private fields to write accessors for each
13:59:50dom96I don't think there is any other way.
14:14:55dom96exhu: how's Paulina going btw?
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14:18:53exhudom96, had no time for hobby programming, so no success yet
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14:21:21exhudom96, the main thing is that i will not use native controls and reuse only single window to display. this is to easily port the gui to opengl-based for writing games in the future.
14:22:54Araqhi exhu welcome back
14:23:09Araqwhat you want requires a compiler patch, but it's not unreasonable
14:24:04Araqfor now just make it public, binding rules in templates will change for 0.9.4 and support what you want
14:24:26exhuAraq, hi. I can circumvent it with procs.
14:24:53dom96exhu: You can always create a macro which will generate the procs for you.
14:25:00AraqI suppose you can, yeah
14:25:21Araqdom96: exhu doesn't use macros because they are buggy
14:25:26exhudom96, have never liked macros :)
14:25:49Araqwell my new vm is starting to work, fixing most macro issues
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14:28:10Araqexhu: does you stuff still work with the x11 wrapper. I'm afraid fowl made some breaking changes
14:28:34exhuAraq, it compiles but only with -d:use_pkg_config
14:29:05Araqhuh? any idea why?
14:30:43exhuAraq, well it compiles anyway but quits at start with "could not import: XkbGetDeviceIndicatorState"
14:31:57Araqwhy?
14:35:49exhuhave no idea, the sources seem the same for my private wrappers and those in lib/
14:36:23Araqok
14:37:07exhuBTW, i don't use this function why it's imported?
14:38:01exhuAraq, may be a compiler glitch?
14:38:29Araqno but x11 might be missing a {.deadCodeElim:on.}
14:40:28Araqugh X11 is once of the ugliest APIs around
14:40:48Araqtopped by ssh of course
14:40:52exhuAraq, maybe that function is deprecated
14:41:15exhui.e. not in the xlib anymore
14:41:23Araq*ssl
14:42:03exhuthat's why i prefer using pkg-config here, it's too much stuff to be studied to write bindings
14:42:43AraqdeadCodeElim fixes these things as a side effect
14:44:38exhuAraq, until i need that XkbGetDeviceIndicatorState function one time -)
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14:45:58Araqyou don't need what is deprecated :P
14:47:55OrionPKhttps://gist.github.com/onionhammer/7062992
14:48:14OrionPKthere u go araq, doesnt deref if u pass it another ref
14:48:30exhui found this function declaration in /usr/include, it doesn't match that in nimrod
14:49:03AraqI think somebody should c2nim x11 again from scratch ;-)
14:49:21Araqthe x11 wrapper has been a translation from FPC iirc
14:50:22Araqbut then wayland is just around the corner anyway, right?
14:50:56exhui don't want regenerating the bindings, i've added pkg-config support to them -)
14:51:45exhui would prefer only having those functions that i use, because x11 is huge
14:51:59Araqyeah I agree
14:52:18Araqwell there is no need to change anything if it works for you
14:52:38exhui've copied the bindings to my gui repo, so there's no problem if someone brakes
14:53:01Araqsmart move
14:54:02Araqnow of course I should tell you "omg code duplication, what if a bug gets fixed? then you need to edit your copy! any violation of DRY is EVIL"
14:54:06exhuyou see why i don't want to write a gui lib with native controls -)
14:54:28Araqbut I won't :P
14:54:50exhui use nimrod's binding by default and resort to copied ones until you merge the pull request then
14:54:59Araqbecause that happens so rarely that the benefits of the duplication outweighs the costs
14:57:08Araqhuh? there is a pull request?
14:57:14exhuBTW, on windows it seems that using LoadLibrary duplicates code
14:57:29exhuAraq, there was pull request in the past
14:57:41AraqI'm sure I applied it
14:57:44exhuAraq, you had no time to merge it for a week or so
14:57:56exhuAraq, and then merged
14:58:08Araqah, come on :P
14:58:47exhuAraq, i remember running two python copies that use a C-module compiled as DLL, and they used twice as much memory according to the monitor
14:59:15exhuAraq, after executing "import mydllmodule"
14:59:43AraqI see what you mean but it's hard to merge these loadLibrary calls due to modularity requirements
15:00:24Araqif you make a single x11 module that *includes* the submodules there will be a single LoadLibrary call
15:00:30exhuAraq, but linux dloader seems to be smart enough
15:00:57Araqwhat version of windows did you test?
15:01:20exhuAraq, it was in the times of winxp, i guess
15:06:03exhuit's pity windows is huge nowadays, it's too fat to use in a vm for quick testing. :( i wan't good old win98 back which occupied some 90 megs -)
15:07:15AraqI have win xp in a VM :-)
15:07:32Araqand I check proper releases still work on that
15:10:39OrionPKdisks are cheap these days
15:10:45OrionPK3tb hdd is like $100
15:19:05VarriountAraq, NIH?
15:19:27AraqVarriount: "not invented here"
15:20:20VarriountSo, you don't want to add a function that deletes a range of entries in a sequence because... it wasn't invented by nimrod?
15:20:31*Varriount is confused
15:21:00AraqI don't like D-like ranges because I haven't invented them :P
15:22:03Araqmore seriously though
15:22:18Araqdon't we already have that 'delete' somewhere?
15:22:41VarriountWe have the delete for single entries in a sequence, and for range in strings.
15:22:46Varriount*ranges
15:23:00VarriountBut not for ranges in sequences.
15:23:00Araqaha
15:23:06Araqadd it then please
15:23:30*Araq though you were talking about a D-like range concept
15:23:52VarriountI've already written the function. It's adapted from the the strutils delete function.
15:24:03VarriountWhat about the insert function?
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15:24:59VarriountAraq, preview of the code -> https://gist.github.com/Varriount/7071043
15:26:37AraqI think we should simply optimize s = s[0..k] instead
15:27:58Araqbut this requires 'delete' anyway, so ok
15:28:15Araqget rid of the ': void' return type I hate it
15:28:34Araquse 'shallowCopy' instead of '=' for s[i] = s[j]
15:28:49Araqname it "insert" instead of "insertSeq"
15:29:12VarriountIf I name it insert though, the parameters are ambiguous.
15:29:32Araqreally?
15:29:41VarriountYou could be wanting to add a sequence as an item in a sequence of sequences
15:30:02Araqthat wouldn't be 2 seq[T] then
15:30:02OrionPKwhy modify the first seq, why not just return a new one
15:30:16VarriountOrionPK, memory.
15:30:26AraqOrionPK: efficiency is the point here, otherwise you could simply use slices
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15:31:01OrionPKmmmk
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15:34:13OrionPKif you call it someSeq.insert(someOtherSeq,0) it's pretty straight forward whats going on imo
15:35:10Araqit also helps it doesn't return anything
15:35:15VarriountAraq, should I change strutils.delete to use shallowCopy as well?
15:35:30Araqno, chars have a trivial '=' operator
15:36:04Araq'shallowCopy' is a *move* optimization
15:36:15exhuOrionPK, cheap memory is a lame excuse for bloatware.
15:36:30OrionPKVarriount, pos could have default value of 0 probably
15:36:37OrionPKexhu it's the price of progress :P
15:37:35OrionPKyou might as well question why games take up more than 1.3 mb
15:38:06OrionPK1.4mb floppy disks arent the media of choice anymore
15:38:20Araqactually games are special in that you can *see* why they now take more than 1.4mb
15:38:37Varriount*cough*engines*cough*
15:38:52exhuOrionPK, i can justify games for creative contents, where video and textures demand it, but windows core suddenly bloated from decent winxp gigabyte to tens of gigabytes for win7 etc.
15:38:52OrionPKyeah, but they grew to kind of fill the space available, Araq
15:39:00OrionPKthats the point
15:39:04OrionPKcapacities get larger and larger
15:39:15OrionPKso things that fill those capacities get bigger and bigger
15:39:31Varriountexhu, I believe that Windows 7 makes heavy use of caching.
15:39:50exhuVarriount, caching files as files? -)
15:39:58Hannibal_SmithLittle OT: last Pokemon X game, lags sometime -- performance still matters today
15:40:27Varriountexhu, I thought you were talking about memory usage.
15:40:46OrionPKhe said memory, but we were talking about disk space
15:40:48exhuVarriount, hard disk space mainly
15:41:07VarriountLook at wikipedia's article on Windows Vista. Read the section on its development history.
15:41:07Araqthe reality is that more memory is useful for processing larger datasets and doesn't justify bloat, OrionPK
15:41:35exhuBTW, memory (RAM) is still scarce resource on mobile platforms and flash memory is still slow there too.
15:41:48VarriountAlso, you can always have more processing time, but you can't always have more memory.
15:41:58OrionPKim not justifying bloat, i'm just saying you should expect things to get larger as storage space gets cheaper
15:42:15Araqoh alright then
15:42:34OrionPKsame with network speed
15:43:06VarriountAraq, what's your stance on number values (0-9) in variable names?
15:43:09OrionPKlook at theverge.com and imagine how long that would have taken to load on dialup
15:43:42AraqVarriount: I think I prefer valA, valB over val1 and val2
15:44:06VarriountOk, gotcha.
15:44:06OrionPKI dont like valA valB either, boo @ meaningless variable names
15:44:34VarriountOrionPK, what if you have a function that works on two sets of similar data?
15:44:53exhuOrionPK, it halts my core i5, unfortunately there are many sites today that eath processing power and are unusable on my dualcore mobile phone.
15:44:55OrionPKsource, destination or maybe firstSet, secondSet?
15:45:17Araqsrc and dest obviously
15:45:41OrionPKim less want to abbreviate things
15:46:13OrionPKwont*
15:46:19Araqabbrevs are fine as english inherited way too many long latin words
15:46:22VarriountAraq, here's the code -> https://gist.github.com/Varriount/7071043
15:46:44Araqand I keep typing them wrong ;-)
15:46:56VarriountSo, put it in system.nim? Or where?
15:46:56OrionPKI dont mind abbreviations, it's a personal preference of mine to not abbreviate variable names
15:47:29VarriountToo many abbreviations makes me think of C and C++
15:47:57AraqVarriount: don't use var seq[T] for 'sTwo'
15:48:34Araqand name them 'dest' and 'src'
15:48:51Araqor 'source'
15:48:52Varriountcbstring = strct(sO,sT); scares me.
15:49:13AraqVarriount: that's not abbrev that's coding without vowels
15:49:17Araqbig difference
15:49:18Hannibal_SmithC++ don't use this type of abbreviations, Varriount
15:49:52VarriountAraq, well then, I like my vowels.
15:50:09Araqvowels are nice, yes
15:50:10*Varriount hugs the letter "A"
15:50:35OrionPKdefault 0 for pos :P
15:50:43dom96Wouldn't 'items' sound nicer than 'src'?
15:50:52VarriountOrionPK, only if Araq says so.
15:50:56OrionPKdom96 ya I like that
15:51:08Araqdom96: 'items' is the default iterator though
15:51:40dom96Araq: Would that cause problems?
15:51:58Araqno but it's confusing
15:52:42dom96'src' makes it sounds as if you're only inserting a part of it.
15:52:48dom96*sound
15:53:28OrionPK"sequence"?
15:53:37dom96'list'?
15:56:15VarriountAraq, add the functions to system.nim?
16:01:29OrionPKwhy make the second parameter a seq
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16:01:52OrionPKand not varargs
16:02:29VarriountBecause you con't expand a sequence into varargs, but you can put varargs into a sequence
16:02:50dom96I think openarray might be more appropriate.
16:03:21AraqopenArray is it, yeah
16:03:44VarriountFor which function? Insert, or delete?
16:03:48AraqOrionPK: we're careful with varargs, they can weaken the typing
16:03:57OrionPKgood to know
16:04:12AraqVarriount: the 2nd parameter of insert
16:05:11Araqand I'd prefer to add them to sequtils tbh
16:05:26Araqsystem is bloated
16:06:22VarriountYou know, I wish that strutils was named stringUtils, instead. I keep thinking "structUtils"
16:07:01Araqstrutils was choosen to adhere to DOS's 8.3 filename format, believe it or not
16:07:12VarriountO_o
16:07:29VarriountStory time?
16:09:20Araqno story here; I consider Nimrod incomplete if it doesn't run on DOS ;-)
16:09:50VarriountDo you have a computer currently running DOS?
16:10:33Araqno but I have dosbox :P
16:12:06VarriountAraq, should I write unit tests for the new functions?
16:13:29Varriount(Although, I don't see simple functions like these breaking unless Nimrod experiences a huge change)
16:14:07dom96some asserts in the sequtils module's 'when isMainModule' section should be enough.
16:14:23VarriountGotcha.
16:14:26Araqyou can also prove your code correct instead :P
16:14:43VarriountAraq, already have.
16:14:50VarriountDid so last night.
16:15:07Araqwhich calculus did you use?
16:15:14VarriountI needed these functions on last nights ongoing work to translate diff-match-patch
16:15:27VarriountAraq, calculus?
16:16:29Araqyou said you proved it correct. you surely used a calculus for that, right?
16:16:43Varriount-_-'
16:16:46Araq;-)
16:16:53OrionPKthink he means proove as in a proof, not that you tested it
16:16:58OrionPKprove*
16:17:53*Varriount throws Araq out the window.
16:18:12Varriount*Araq's proofs
16:18:45OrionPKvarriount used the "Works On My Machine" calculus
16:19:21VarriountAlso known as the WOMM theory.
16:24:46exhuspeaking about calculus, can you guys recommend Scheme instead of Lua for embedded scripting? :)
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16:28:35Araqnope, I can recommend Nimrod with its new VM though
16:29:05VarriountNimrod has a new VM?
16:29:22VarriountSince when?
16:30:23OrionPKAraq does 'from' support folders?
16:30:44OrionPKe.g. from foldername import somemodule
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16:32:30AraqOrionPK: no
16:32:37OrionPKcould it?
16:32:45AraqVarriount: it's in the new vm2 branch and it's what keeps me from fixing bugs
16:33:51VarriountAh, I see.
16:33:55AraqOrionPK: why should it? it doesn't make sense
16:34:15OrionPKif you want to import multiple files from a folder
16:34:38Araqoh jezz then don't use a folder
16:35:01OrionPKjust splooge out potentially hundreds of nim files into 1 directory?
16:35:53exhunimrod vm can be too fat for embedded scripting
16:35:59*Varriount looks at the Windows SDK header folder, and shudders.
16:36:14Araqif you have hundreds of nim files you might have some other problems
16:36:29OrionPKif the alternative is 5000 line long nim files, then I dont think so
16:36:34OrionPKif it's a large project
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16:41:08shevyhehe
16:41:38shevythe 1 million lines of code nimrod project
16:41:45shevyit can do EVERYTHING
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16:59:06VarriountBesides having a functional aspect, for me, seperating code into files helps me *mentally* seperate them.
17:01:29Araqyup but folders suck for navigation ;-)
17:02:20VarriountOr get too excessive *cough*java*cough*
17:02:21OrionPKmary mary quite contrary
17:07:56VarriountAraq, pull request sent.
17:09:49Araqty
17:11:24VarriountI might be sending a couple more pull requests this week. Mainly a bunch of little things - documentation additions, etc
17:11:33Araqcool cool
17:13:04dom96ooh, I like your usage of 'block'.
17:15:12Varriountdom96, ?
17:16:40dom96in your tests, normally I would just name the variables something else, using a separate never entered my mind.
17:16:45dom96*separate scope
17:19:21VarriountAlthough the functional features of the block statement aren't needed very often, they do help tell whoever is reading the code that "this section is seperate from other parts"
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17:29:49dom96Araq: Can you test babel on Mac OS X please?
17:30:10Araqok
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17:34:53OrionPKcan anyone explain this error? https://gist.github.com/onionhammer/7072696
17:35:04OrionPKmost relevant lines are 14-18
17:35:28Araqsetting.mget(key).add(newSetting) # should work
17:35:36Araqand yeah I know, I know
17:35:47OrionPKok, known issue?
17:37:47Araqit's not a compiler bug
17:37:59Araqbut it's a known gotcha
17:38:18Araqof the language
17:38:31OrionPKah hmm
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17:53:32OrionPKdoes the 're' module support named groups
17:54:28AraqI don't think so
17:55:15OrionPKpity
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19:40:22guaquaOrionPK: ran into the same issue myself. probably line 17 actually does an .mget instead of the regular one?
19:40:31guaquabecause it's forced by the var definition?
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20:32:05xybreHi dom96, thanks.
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22:41:04OrionPKdistnct
22:41:06OrionPKseriously?
22:41:16OrionPKthe "i" is too much extra noise? ;P
22:41:30OrionPKdistinct is a keyword?
22:49:35Araqyes
22:50:56Araqmaybe we should have used "unique" instead?
22:51:08OrionPKprobably preferably under the circumstances
22:51:19OrionPKthats the 2nd thing I looked for
22:52:11OrionPKfor the map proc, is there a way to skip items if they dont fit the pattern you want?
22:53:04Araq"filter" perhaps? I'm not really familar with sequtils tbh
22:53:23OrionPKmm, that probably works
22:53:32OrionPKthough it forces you to return the same type
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22:54:33OrionPKso I have to do a map() then a filter()
22:54:56Araqand "map" doesn't force you to return the same type?
22:55:25OrionPKthe whole point of map is to return something else
22:55:27OrionPKbased on the iterated item
22:55:45Araqyeah lol
22:55:49xenagierm... doesn't map return a list?
22:55:50*Araq is tired
22:56:03OrionPKxenagi, yeah it returns a seq
22:56:08OrionPKbut what I want is basically a 'mapfilter'
22:56:08OrionPK:)
22:56:26OrionPKinstead I have to map(callback).filter(callback)
22:56:31Araqso implement it, it's ~5 lines of code
22:56:33xenagii see
22:56:43xenagii think python calls that a list comprehension
22:56:59xenagi[ x for x in list if meets_cond(x) ]
22:57:35OrionPKaraq I will
23:01:41Araqxenagi: you're right
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23:10:39VarriountOrionPK, a goog project would be to implement python's itertools in nimrod.
23:10:46Varriount*good
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