<< 20-12-2019 >>

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00:05:53	loading	hi
00:05:59	disruptek	hello
00:06:06	loading	hows life
00:06:43	disruptek	fair to middling.
00:06:46	disruptek	you?
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00:08:19	clyybber	gn8 ppl
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00:10:55	loading	hi
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00:26:50	shashlick	yay choosenim 0.5.0 is finally out - https://github.com/dom96/choosenim/releases/tag/v0.5.0
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01:27:49	russellb	folks
01:27:59	russellb	nim beginner
01:28:15	russellb	any sources and example projects to learn nim is much appreciated
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01:30:16	disruptek	russellb: what kinda projects are you looking to author?
01:34:19	russellb	physics simulations
01:34:30	russellb	numerical computations
01:34:37	russellb	@distruptek
01:35:10	disruptek	scientific computing is mratsim's department.
01:35:30	disruptek	!repo arraymancer
01:35:32	disbot	https://github.com/mratsim/Arraymancer -- 9Arraymancer: 11A fast, ergonomic and portable tensor library in Nim with a deep learning focus for CPU, GPU and embedded devices via OpenMP, Cuda and OpenCL backends 15 533⭐ 48🍴 7& 6 more...
01:36:02	disruptek	!repo weave
01:36:03	disbot	https://github.com/mratsim/weave -- 9weave: 11A state-of-the-art multithreading runtime: message-passing based, fast, scalable, ultra-low overhead 15 70⭐ 6🍴
01:36:35	disruptek	i'm a guy that writes the dogshit that smart folks are too busy to bother with.
01:37:18	russellb	I am coming from rust
01:37:52	russellb	I find nim libraries documentation is not elaborate in comparison to rust.
01:38:01	russellb	i m firm on nim though.
01:38:14	russellb	excellent combo of syntactic ease and compiled power
01:38:46	russellb	libraries are good start from first impression
01:38:50	disruptek	yeah, the tech is there, it's just early days for the community.
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01:40:49	russellb	however, I find lot of similarities conceptually b/w rust and nim
01:40:59	russellb	except borrow checker and gc
01:41:04	russellb	bc & gc
01:41:11	russellb	;-P
01:41:20	russellb	algebraic data types
01:41:40	leorize	well, languages designed to make programming safer will always be kinda the same :P
01:41:58	russellb	typedefs and methods (in nim lingo - procs)
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01:43:27	russellb	@leorize: rust has all the mines burried under the hood with walk paths paved off from them
01:44:00	russellb	lot of unsafe code in the std library
01:44:18	leorize	that's the same everywhere :P
01:44:26	russellb	just not allowing hte novice user to make some memory error
01:44:35	leorize	just that we don't label code paths in Nim as "unsafe"
01:44:37	russellb	but ofrces to think ahead of typing
01:44:47	leorize	if you see cast, addr, and ptr, then it's unsafe
01:45:00	russellb	but others doesn't claim to be memory safe as rust does
01:45:44	russellb	ptr are inherently unsafe? is it?
01:46:06	leorize	yep, due to the fact that they are not managed
01:46:14	leorize	ref on the other hand is totally safe
01:46:21	disruptek	it's a feature.
01:48:56	russellb	any overhead on "ref"?
01:49:02	leorize	russellb: of course as with all "unsafe" feature, you can write abstractions on top of them that make them safe :)
01:49:15	leorize	other than the gc, no
01:50:00	leorize	and we are experimenting with different models that eliminate the full-fledged GC we have
01:50:31	russellb	well I need to study nim's GC mech yet.
01:51:02	russellb	any novel ideas in it, so far?
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01:51:43	disruptek	i mean, yeah.
01:52:13	leorize	https://github.com/nim-lang/RFCs/issues/144
01:52:15	disbot	➥ Proposal to add 'owned' refs to Nim ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=24U9
01:52:18	leorize	https://github.com/nim-lang/RFCs/issues/177
01:52:22	disbot	➥ Unify Nim's GC/memory management options ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=24Ua
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01:57:23	russellb	owned 'ref's would be great
02:02:26	leorize[m]	it'll be a long road there
02:02:40	leorize[m]	the majority of written nim code is incompatible with it
02:03:31	leorize[m]	with that said, the current system still works pretty well as long as you do things single threaded
02:04:12	leorize[m]	or if you multi thread without sharing data
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02:06:00	russellb	multi threading would be great in this era of multi-core processors
02:06:23	russellb	But for an evolving stage it should be O.K.
02:06:57	russellb	How do you people forsee the nim's position in next 3-5 years?
02:07:18	russellb	Is it being used in production somewhere?
02:07:35	disruptek	production? sure.
02:07:46	leorize[m]	!repo nimbus
02:07:47	disbot	https://github.com/status-im/nimbus -- 9nimbus: 11Nimbus: an Ethereum 1.0 & 2.0 Client for Resource-Restricted Devices 15 311⭐ 41🍴 7& 7 more...
02:08:34	leorize[m]	!repo reelvalley
02:08:34	disbot	no results 😢
02:09:59	leorize[m]	!repo nimforum
02:10:00	disbot	https://github.com/nim-lang/nimforum -- 9nimforum: 11Lightweight alternative to Discourse written in Nim 15 438⭐ 35🍴 7& 1 more...
02:10:29	watzon	I'm fairly certain every semi-popular language is being used in production somewhere. I just got done working for a company that was using Crystal in production
02:11:00	russellb	Crystal in production?
02:11:08	russellb	That's interesting
02:11:21	watzon	Yep. NeuraLegion uses Crystal for pretty much their whole stack
02:11:26	russellb	nimbus sounds like a serious project
02:11:59	russellb	watzon: that's interesting and inspiring to hear
02:14:49	watzon	I'd say there's definitely hope for Nim in that area. It's a great language, and a lot of people love the Pythonic syntax.
02:14:56	watzon	Not to mention it's fast
02:15:47	disruptek	more go than go.
02:16:00	disruptek	and less google.
02:17:17	disruptek	this is pretty exciting:
02:17:19	disruptek	!repo nlvm
02:17:20	disbot	https://github.com/arnetheduck/nlvm -- 9nlvm: 11LLVM-based compiler for the Nim language 15 245⭐ 18🍴 7& 1 more...
02:20:57	russellb	that's nice.
02:21:04	russellb	disruptek: Have you tried this?
02:21:30	disruptek	yeah, but i need to follow devel/1.0 for now.
02:22:00	disruptek	i'm hoping to run nim/nlvm in graalvm.
02:23:41	russellb	o.k
02:24:05	russellb	post your experiences, best through a blog
02:25:02	disruptek	i don't really understand blogs.
02:25:10	disruptek	who has time to search out content like that?
02:25:37	disruptek	i'd rather write code. but, i'm old.
02:25:45	disruptek	only a few more years left, if i'm lucky.
02:26:35	russellb	!!
02:27:31	disruptek	i'm working on this:
02:27:33	disruptek	!repo nimph
02:27:34	disbot	https://github.com/disruptek/nimph -- 9nimph: 11a nim package hierarchy manager from the future 🧚 15 22⭐ 1🍴 7& 1 more...
02:28:57	russellb	lemme check this out
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03:14:19	FromGitter	<iffy> Since I didn't find a library for this already: https://github.com/iffy/nim-keyring I'll work on Linux when I next get a chance
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04:14:39	voltist	I find it very hard to believe that nothing has been said on this channel while I have been away. Something must be wrong with my ZNC server...
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04:26:28	shashlick	its been quiet for the last hour at best
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05:23:32	disruptek	$ nimph downgrade sdl2_nim
05:23:37	disruptek	rolled sdl2_nim from 2.0.10 to v0.95
05:23:50	disruptek	i swear this person hates me.
05:24:26	disruptek	rolled sdl2_nim from 0.95.0 to v2.0.10.0
05:24:35	disruptek	it's madness, is what it is. sheer madness.
05:27:18	shashlick	someone's got to disrupt you too buddy
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05:51:27	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> (https://files.gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim/nrIm/image.png)
05:51:33	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> starting to look pretty good I think
05:52:10	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> it doesn't look as tiled anymore
05:59:05	FromGitter	<juancarlospaco> New choosenim is not updating?. Info: Already up to date at version 0.4.0
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06:06:23	shashlick	looks like it is not updated on http://nim-lang.org website, need to ping dom96
06:07:13	watzon	Hmm mine says version 0.5.0
06:08:27	shashlick	https://nim-lang.org/choosenim/stable still shows 0.4.0
06:09:04	shashlick	also unclear where it downloads the binaries from
06:09:21	shashlick	when you update or run the init.sh script
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08:37:36	Araq	ping mratsim
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08:38:45	Araq	interesting how things are done in Swift land, https://gist.github.com/lattner/429b9070918248274f25b714dcfc7619
08:40:28	Araq	they did without the Future abstraction
08:41:14	Araq	not sure if it's a big difference in practice, the closures still need to allocate anyway
08:41:50	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Hey i'm learning threads with nim i have a question about threadpool
08:42:15	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I have a variable that is global inside of my package, but i know this variable will be thread safe, how can i specify it ?
08:42:42	FromDiscord	<Milerius> (i get a Error: 'mm2_init_thread' is not GC-safe as it accesses 'mm2_instance' which is a global using GC'ed memory)
08:43:12	Araq	it never is threadsafe IME
08:43:22	Araq	when the compiler tells you that it isn't
08:43:48	Araq	can't outsmart the system. well, you can easily do
08:43:54	Araq	{.gcsafe.}:
08:44:06	Araq	use global here # I know what I'm doing
08:44:15	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Yeah i tried that
08:44:59	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Ah nice that compile now
08:45:00	FromDiscord	<Milerius> thanks !
08:45:14	Araq	but keep in mind that it's unsafe, the memory backing up refs/strings/seqs is thread-local and "it's immutable" doesn't count either as the GC introduces write barriers
08:45:20	Araq	which are not threadsafe either
08:45:24	FromDiscord	<Milerius> It's because this variable is accessed once at the beginning of my program
08:45:28	FromDiscord	<Milerius> and once at the end of my program
08:45:34	FromDiscord	<Milerius> (It's an osproc.Process)
08:45:44	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I want to create the process in an async way
08:45:50	FromDiscord	<Milerius> And close it at the end of the program
08:46:28	FromDiscord	<Milerius> So far i got: https://gist.github.com/Milerius/4dbdad26e6021b3b6a0074225e110607
08:46:33	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Not sure it's the good way to do that
08:47:58	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I think Since i access this variable only Twice in the program it's "safe"
08:48:02	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Not sure too.
08:49:03	FromDiscord	<Milerius> i use it in the main like: initProcess()
08:49:03	FromDiscord	<Milerius> and then: defer closeProcess()
08:52:37	Araq	sounds ok to me too
08:52:49	Araq	there is also an async osproc package somewhere
08:53:46	FromDiscord	<Milerius> 😮
08:54:19	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Also, another question
08:54:20	FromDiscord	<Milerius>
08:54:20	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Is the equivalent of std::atomic_bool from c++ create a regular integer and nim and use atomicInc/atomicDec ?
08:54:25	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Or we have an atomic boolean ?
08:54:44	FromDiscord	<mratsim> @Araq I've been thinking on coroutine based multithreading. This one is a very efficient, very concise and also performant multithreading library based on whaat looks like coroutines: https://github.com/chaoran/fibril
08:54:57	FromDiscord	<mratsim> import std/atomics and use Atomic[bool]
08:55:14	FromDiscord	<Milerius> :OOOO
08:55:16	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Perfect
08:55:20	FromDiscord	<Milerius> thanks ratsim
08:55:23	FromDiscord	<mratsim> Actually it's the only library that is more efficient than mine on fibonacci 😉
08:56:04	FromDiscord	<mratsim> it would be easier as well to mix async/await with spawn/sync
08:56:35	FromDiscord	<mratsim> but AFAIK the current design of weave still allows to switch to coroutines-based tasks
08:56:39	FromDiscord	<Milerius> @mratsim Where is the doc for atomics ?
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08:57:39	FromDiscord	<mratsim> no docs, but C++ reference would work
08:58:01	FromDiscord	<mratsim> there are 2 competing atomics package and no final API was chosen
08:58:04	FromDiscord	<mratsim> you can read here: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/lib/pure/concurrency/atomics.nim
08:58:20	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I read but
08:58:25	FromDiscord	<Milerius> i don't understand how we set a value
08:58:31	FromDiscord	<Milerius> when i set = true it's not workin
08:58:32	FromDiscord	<Milerius> when i set = true it's not working
08:58:42	FromDiscord	<mratsim> foo.store(true, moRelaxed)
08:58:52	FromDiscord	<mratsim> if you want relaxed memory semantics
08:59:21	narimiran	Nim Community Survey 2019 is here! https://nim-lang.org/blog/2019/12/20/community-survey-2019.html
08:59:35	FromDiscord	<Milerius> ah nice
08:59:41	FromDiscord	<mratsim> here is a simple example of Atomic bool on SPSC channel: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/unused/channels/channels_spsc_single_object.nim#L45
09:01:16	Araq	the C++ memory model is quite good but the names are terrible
09:01:36	FromDiscord	<mratsim> fetchAdd and AddFetch 😛
09:01:41	FromDiscord	<mratsim> and no fetchXor
09:01:51	FromDiscord	<mratsim> sorry fetchNeg
09:03:36	FromDiscord	<mratsim> btw, I started to use formal verification, I think a backend to a formal verification language 'maybe spin?) would be helpful
09:04:12	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I used TLA+ but it's higher level, both supports goto though
09:04:46	Araq	I planned to nimZ3
09:05:21	FromDiscord	<mratsim> ah right
09:05:50	Araq	Z3 supports separation logic iirc and everything that lacks separation logic isn't future proof :P
09:06:10	FromDiscord	<mratsim> TLA+ can use isabelle or Z3 for proofs as well
09:06:52	FromDiscord	<mratsim> i.e. it does model checking (exhaustively check all states your application can be in and ensure no deadlock, livelocks or any other constraint you don't want violated)
09:07:16	FromDiscord	<mratsim> or it does proofs by deferring to a SMT like Z3 or a proof assistant like Isabelle
09:07:37	FromDiscord	<Milerius> @mratsim Are you using Thread Sanitize with nim?
09:07:42	FromDiscord	<Milerius> To verify that you are thread safe
09:07:52	FromDiscord	<mratsim> planned but not yet
09:08:20	FromDiscord	<mratsim> probably will be my own tool, I was thinking of the name "Lage Nim COllider" :p
09:08:23	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I'm supposing i can just link to check
09:08:30	FromDiscord	<mratsim> See: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/issues/18
09:08:31	disbot	➥ [Testing] Concurrency: Race detection / Model Checking / Formal Verification
09:08:58	Araq	so ... as I also asked on the forum, what does 'spawn' use ideally?
09:09:04	FromDiscord	<mratsim> for now I've used Valgrind/Helgrind but it's very noisy the output is not usable
09:09:19	FromDiscord	<mratsim> what do you mean by "what"?
09:09:47	FromDiscord	<mratsim> ah
09:09:51	FromDiscord	<mratsim> sink move or deepCopy
09:12:17	FromDiscord	<mratsim> It does like this "spawn fnCall(x, y, z)"
09:12:17	FromDiscord	<mratsim> x, y, z will be serialized into a task
09:12:18	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I create an "async_fnCall" function that is also referenced in the task and is just in charge of passing a pointer to the serialized x,y,z and returning the future: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/weave/parallel_tasks.nim#L125-L150
09:13:53	Araq	yeah I'm familiar with this idea
09:15:21	Araq	you use pointers for everything, right? thread local heaps are dead
09:16:06	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I have a thread-local context and a custom threadsafe memory pool
09:16:53	FromDiscord	<mratsim> when I refactor the thing in an explicit state machine I will reduce the context
09:17:03	FromDiscord	<mratsim> it's there: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/weave/datatypes/context_thread_local.nim
09:17:05	FromDiscord	<Milerius> How we add a default flags when using nimble build ?
09:17:15	FromDiscord	<Milerius> i want to compile with --threads by default
09:17:33	FromDiscord	<mratsim> either you use a .cfg: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/weave.cfg
09:17:40	FromDiscord	<mratsim> which will work with both nimble and nim
09:17:49	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Nice !!
09:18:00	FromDiscord	<mratsim> or you configure nimble with flags like this: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/weave.nimble#L26
09:18:18	FromDiscord	<mratsim> that would only apply to nimble commands
09:18:55	FromDiscord	<Milerius> i like cfg
09:19:40	FromDiscord	<Milerius> you need to specify the cfg to nimble ?
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09:20:04	FromDiscord	<mratsim> no
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09:20:11	FromDiscord	<mratsim> the nim compiler picks it up automatically
09:20:20	FromDiscord	<Milerius> It's not working for me 😢
09:21:14	FromDiscord	<Milerius> (i mean nimble doesn't pickup the flags inside my cfg)
09:21:17	Araq	mratsim: what's on your opinion on this design: 'new' uses a shared memory heap but the RC ops are *non*atomic
09:21:36	FromDiscord	<mratsim> My memory management scheme is explained here: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/tree/master/weave/memory
09:21:36	FromDiscord	<mratsim> And the issues with cactus stacks and such here: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/weave/memory/multithreaded_memory_management.md
09:21:36	FromDiscord	<mratsim> And the memory access patterns of the runtime here: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/weave/memory/memory_access_patterns.md
09:21:36	FromDiscord	<mratsim>
09:21:36	FromDiscord	<mratsim> But in short my memory pool covers all my needs and its pointers all the way down.
09:22:14	FromDiscord	<mratsim> can't we have type FooShared {.atomic.} = ref object
09:22:25	FromDiscord	<mratsim> for non atomic ref counting
09:22:35	FromDiscord	<mratsim> and type FooTL = ref object
09:22:50	FromDiscord	<mratsim> for thread local ref counting so non-atomic?
09:23:14	Araq	we can do everything C++ can but we're getting into composability problems
09:23:39	FromDiscord	<mratsim> @milerius, it must be called with the same name as your nim file that imports everything
09:23:49	Araq	yes, ok so now I have shared_ref[T], can I put JSON inside it?
09:24:39	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I think it would be less likely to miss a use-case by listing use cases we want to support
09:24:54	Araq	(JSON is my favorite example because it's so common)
09:25:15	clyybber	Araq: You mean because json itself doesn't return shared_refs?
09:25:17	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I don't mind having non-atomic by default, atomic is costly
09:26:32	Araq	indeed it is
09:26:59	Araq	clyybber: exactly, we're sitting on a codebase full of refs
09:27:18	Araq	and as far as I'm aware so is almost everybody else
09:27:28	clyybber	Hmm, that is indeed a problem
09:27:45	Araq	it's also a problem in C++ and Rust btw
09:27:57	Araq	what pointer type to choose for my library
09:28:16	Araq	I've seen JSON implementations in C++ based on shared_ptr
09:29:18	clyybber	Ideally shared would be a top level type attribute like var or static
09:29:29	clyybber	But I don't know how that can work at construction
09:30:08	Araq	at the same time, pretending that you can "just use X" if only Nim had a shared heap and atomic refcounting is a terrible idea, all you do is to turn data races into race conditions
09:31:18	clyybber	Araq: Could a normal ref be promoted to an atomic ref?
09:31:22	Araq	take the Table[string, string] data structure and put a lock around it, it doesn't work.
09:31:51	Araq	because you cannot query a table about its size when it's concurrently being added to
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09:33:03	Araq	clyybber: yes, we can traverse the subgraph and set a flag ("now shared!")
09:33:08	clyybber	Ok
09:33:20	clyybber	We can move normal refs around threads safely though
09:33:22	clyybber	Right?
09:33:30	clyybber	But only move
09:33:35	Araq	right
09:33:48	FromDiscord	<mratsim> concurrent collections need dedicated maintenance
09:34:16	FromDiscord	<mratsim> a data race detector would be nice as well
09:34:19	FromDiscord	<mratsim> (Go has one)
09:34:29	Araq	(I know)
09:34:47	Araq	race detection is far worse than race prevention though
09:35:07	clyybber	Araq: So with respect to threads a normal ref is like an owned ref and an shared ref like a normal ref
09:35:16	clyybber	weird analogy I know
09:35:41	Araq	clyybber: you can also assert ref.refcount == 1 before passing it to a thread
09:36:11	clyybber	Yeah
09:37:00	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I've noted race detection techniques here: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/issues/18#issuecomment-565858939
09:37:00	FromDiscord	<mratsim>
09:37:00	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I'm pretty sure Go race detector is based on this: https://github.com/dvyukov/relacy as Dmitry Vyukov wrote the Go scheduling runtime as well (and also Tensorflow/Eigen scheduler)
09:37:01	disbot	➥ [Testing] Concurrency: Race detection / Model Checking / Formal Verification
09:37:49	FromDiscord	<mratsim> there are links to writeups
09:38:45	clyybber	Araq: We need something like lent/sink for threads
09:38:52	FromDiscord	<mratsim> and Rust has this one which uses some techniques from a paper to limit state explosion: https://github.com/tokio-rs/loom
09:39:13	FromDiscord	<mratsim> @Clyybber, like Send/Sync?
09:39:37	clyybber	yeah
09:39:48	clyybber	I'm coming more from pony though, but its the same
09:39:59	FromDiscord	<mratsim> oh you did Pony?
09:40:09	clyybber	yeah
09:40:14	FromDiscord	<mratsim> but the behaviour: isolate and stuff are a bit to numerous
09:40:45	FromGitter	<alehander92> i think they were mostly a combination
09:40:52	FromGitter	<alehander92> of 2-3 orthogonal things
09:41:35	FromDiscord	<mratsim> ah I see
09:43:05	FromDiscord	<mratsim> @Clyybber: https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/5692#35488
09:43:37	Araq	mratsim: I think I nailed this problem a couple of years ago with the .guard annotation for when you need locking/atomics and analysable array slices for true parallelism
09:43:52	FromGitter	<alehander92> https://tutorial.ponylang.io/reference-capabilities/capability-matrix.html
09:44:08	Araq	and nothing else comes close because it's a static mechanism
09:44:13	FromGitter	<alehander92> so it seems to me one could do it with less primitives
09:44:21	FromGitter	<alehander92> but yeah its still relatively many
09:44:34	FromGitter	<alehander92> but its more obvious why
09:44:58	Araq	the "disjoint check" is exactly what I want in reality and Z3 should give it us
09:45:32	Araq	*to us
09:46:48	Araq	clyybber: what do you mean by that?
09:46:51	Zevv	so did you ever get started with Z3?
09:46:59	Araq	"sink" and "lent" for threads?
09:47:09	clyybber	ownership basically
09:47:10	Araq	Zevv: I managed to build it...
09:47:36	Zevv	that's something
09:48:24	FromGitter	<alehander92> so is z3 in 2020 program
09:48:28	FromGitter	<alehander92> or 2021
09:49:35	clyybber	Araq: Owned ref is equivalent to ponys iso. When we send it to another thread/actor nothing should point to it. It must also behave like a sink arg
09:50:10	clyybber	so we can't use it until it is returned to us again
09:51:23	Araq	in 2020 program because we're insane
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09:51:47	Araq	clyybber: same as unique_ptr, you can write it as a library in about 30 lines
09:51:49	FromDiscord	<mratsim> replied to detail task packaging: https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/5692#35490
09:52:09	clyybber	Araq: Yeah
09:53:44	clyybber	I just had an idea for an optimization for atomic ref counting.
09:54:31	clyybber	Each thread stores its own non atomic thread local refcount along it, and the atomic refcount only gets decremented when the thread local refcount is 0
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09:55:29	Araq	yeah, known to me
09:55:30	FromDiscord	<mratsim> that means that all threads need to keep a hashtable though
09:57:20	Araq	problem with optimizing RC ops is that I'm naive and believe in hardware. eventually atomicInc will have the cost as inc if there no contention
09:58:01	Araq	so far this doesn't happen though for reasons I don't know, plenty of runtimes are betting on refcounting
09:58:23	Araq	Python, PHP, Perl, Swift, C++, Rust, ...
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09:59:26	FromDiscord	<mratsim> on x86 atomicInc relaxed is the same cost of inc
09:59:44	Araq	not on my benchmarks, it was significantly slower
09:59:46	FromDiscord	<mratsim> the high cost is because you need to flush and reload the cache
10:00:05	Araq	no, the cache is ok, it's the write buffer that gets flushed
10:03:59	Araq	mratsim: anyhow, the real underlying issues are:
10:04:10	Araq	- how can I use weave with async?
10:04:47	Araq	- can weave replace async?
10:05:20	Araq	- how to make it work well with Nim's strings/seqs, maybe refs
10:07:34	Araq	- how to use it with openArray
10:09:00	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I don't know (for all of those)
10:09:38	FromDiscord	<mratsim> 1. Async is a complex beast as well and i'd rather have cheatfate work on it or someone who deals with it on a day to day basis
10:09:53	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I can only make sure we work well by providing good channels primitives
10:10:04	FromDiscord	<mratsim> and allow event loop in threads or spawning threads from event loops
10:10:44	FromDiscord	<mratsim> strings/seq/refs: depends on the GC: that's probably the hardest. I looked into the nim channels implementation and I was completely lost
10:11:05	FromDiscord	<mratsim> openarray should work as long as we can have them as values
10:11:49	FromDiscord	<mratsim> however, the escape analysis is a bit harder and you would need a "sync" before returning
10:11:59	FromDiscord	<mratsim> to ensure there is no escape of the pointer
10:12:31	Araq	I know, that's why there is 'parallel' + 'spawn' in Nim, spawn alone doesn't cut it
10:13:24	Araq	it's also where concurrency and parallelism diverge, parallelism is like "structured programming" for me, in the end there is a 'join'
10:13:56	FromDiscord	<mratsim> in the end, I started without those answers and by avoiding to requiring them because it's too hard
10:14:02	FromGitter	<alehander92> https://plg.uwaterloo.ca/~migod/papers/2019/scam19.pdf might be interesting
10:15:45	clyybber	looks like a scammy link :p
10:18:46	FromGitter	<alehander92> A Study on the Effects of Exception Usagein Open-Source C++ Systems
10:18:51	FromGitter	<alehander92> yeah, its strange :P
10:21:21	Araq	skimmed it, but doesn't look that interesting, sorry
10:21:46	Araq	also, once again: I don't even like exceptions anyway, it's just that the proposed alternatives are worse
10:22:26	FromGitter	<alehander92> yeah, i mostly like the methodology, its useful to build more tools enabling some kind of metrics on corpuses of code
10:23:00	Araq	and the points brought up against them are often *objectively* wrong.
10:23:41	FromGitter	<alehander92> lang design can use some more "data" in decisions, but its very hard to measure it
10:27:12	Araq	maybe some day I'll finish my "quirky exceptions", the C backend seriously needs it
10:28:00	Araq	mratsim: maybe 'spawn f(args)' is the wrong idea too, the args have marshalling semantics in
10:28:05	Araq	- your implementation
10:28:08	Araq	- my implementation
10:28:31	Araq	- for async too (cannot use a 'var T' over there either)
10:29:17	Araq	it's cute syntax but maybe we are better off with an explicit task type that programmers are responsible for
10:29:39	Araq	easier to implement, clearer cost model
10:31:43	FromDiscord	<mratsim> or both
10:32:39	clyybber	disruptek: 10 now https://github.com/nim-lang/packages/pull/1280/files :p
10:32:40	disbot	➥ Fix vcs protocol for diff
10:32:47	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I have both implemented in TBB, the closure approach takes 600ms on my machine on fib(40) and 1000ms with the task approach:
10:32:47	FromDiscord	<mratsim>
10:32:47	FromDiscord	<mratsim> https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/benchmarks/fibonacci/tbb_class_fib.cpp
10:32:47	FromDiscord	<mratsim>
10:32:47	FromDiscord	<mratsim> https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/benchmarks/fibonacci/tbb_closure_fib.cpp
10:32:57	FromDiscord	<mratsim> the task approach is also very verbose
10:33:24	Araq	verbosity is where Nim shines, you can always hide it via macros
10:33:49	FromGitter	<alehander92> but those macros might end up looking as spawn f(args) :P
10:33:49	FromDiscord	<mratsim> also var T on multithreading is bad anyway
10:34:21	Araq	alehander92: yes but then the underlying task structure remains exposed
10:34:31	FromDiscord	<mratsim> go disables it, you have to use channels
10:34:49	FromDiscord	<mratsim> it's not composable also, if you want to do "andThen"
10:34:54	Araq	what? Go doesn't have references anyway, only pointers
10:37:10	FromGitter	<alehander92> the task thing does sound interesting
10:37:31	FromGitter	<alehander92> if its easy to sugar-ize it for the simple usecases
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10:42:37	Araq	also what sometimes bothers me: f(a, b, c) is itself not composable, in stack based languages it's push a; push b; push c; call f
10:43:13	Araq	and it's rather easy to push to somewhere else (a channel?)
10:44:02	Araq	assembler is much more flexible than C code, calling C a "portable assembler" means you have no clue about assembler
10:44:34	FromGitter	<alehander92> hm, but how do you want to compose
10:45:04	Araq	for example, I wrote a VM, it needs to support calling into native code
10:45:31	Araq	the calling convention is known. at runtime. enjoy doing that with C (or C++, Nim, D...)
10:46:28	FromDiscord	<mratsim> The whole point of weave was to be usable from JIT code
10:46:40	PMunch	Hmm, why doesn't this work? https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=24Vb
10:46:43	FromDiscord	<mratsim> because I want to JIT some linear algebra kernels
10:46:45	PMunch	Sure x is static..
10:47:51	PMunch	s/(Sure)/\1ly/
10:50:13	Araq	PMunch: it's not static enough
10:50:27	Araq	const x = 100 should work
10:50:56	PMunch	Not static enough?
10:56:51	clyybber	Araq: How would I prepend an element in your owned ref doubly-linked list?
10:57:39	Araq	via proc prepend. what's the problem?
10:59:59	clyybber	If we do `head = Node(value: newValue, next: head)` that wont work
11:01:17	Araq	alehander92:
11:01:24	Araq	however, popular async frameworks for the Rust programming language, such as tokio.rs, have also chosen to incorporate error handling directly into their Future constructs, because doing so was found to be more practical and ergonomic than trying to compose theoretically-orthogonal Future<T> and Result<T> constructs."
11:01:31	Araq	from https://gist.github.com/lattner/429b9070918248274f25b714dcfc7619
11:01:53	Araq	in other words, Result<T> is junk that doesn't really work... ;-)
11:02:31	FromGitter	<sheerluck> hi all. I stumbled upon funny thing. I have working code with `template until(cond: typed): typed = if cond: break` from https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/1970 ⏎ But as soon as I add the line `import strutils` nim says "Error: invalid control flow: break"
11:03:03	Araq	sheerluck: import struilts except until
11:03:11	FromGitter	<sheerluck> oh. Thank you
11:03:15	Araq	but don't use 'until', write real Nim code please
11:03:49	Araq	templates and macros don't exist just because you cannot let go of Rubyisms
11:04:21	Araq	or of Pascal (do we have people coming from Pascal?)
11:04:52	Araq	clyybber: well 'head' is the last read
11:05:09	Araq	as it gets overwritten just after that
11:05:18	Araq	there is some support for this in the DFA
11:05:34	FromGitter	<sheerluck> @Araq You've convinced me. I will fix my code immediately.
11:06:02	Araq	wow, Christmas is near
11:06:10	Araq	gotta buy a tree, bbl
11:11:48	FromGitter	<alehander92> yeeey
11:12:03	FromGitter	<alehander92> otherwise Araq, interesting link ill read more of it later
11:12:06	FromGitter	<alehander92> thanks
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11:16:55	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Hello, i'm discovering thread in nim:
11:16:55	FromDiscord	<Milerius>
11:16:55	FromDiscord	<Milerius> https://gist.github.com/Milerius/bf2884fba202c911c2a32e02b4565447
11:16:55	FromDiscord	<Milerius>
11:16:55	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I know i'm doing something wrong, (i'm trying to execute a task every 30s in my background thread)
11:16:56	FromDiscord	<Milerius>
11:16:58	FromDiscord	<Milerius> What is the idiomatic way according to my code snippet ?
11:19:13	dom96	https://nim-lang.org/blog/2019/12/20/community-survey-2019.html
11:19:24	dom96	Has narimiran created this from scratch?
11:29:50	federico3	one response per row for the tools? odd
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11:37:25	FromDiscord	<mratsim> is there an issue for the templates eating stacktraces? That's so annoying
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11:46:55	FromGitter	<alehander92> mratsim i have that "runtime stacktrace including macro expansion points" idea started in a branch somewhere
11:47:19	FromGitter	<alehander92> but for now it mostly generates info that i use in gdb
11:54:17	clyybber	Araq: It fails to compile though.
11:56:25	clyybber	seems like a dumb bug though
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12:06:26	clyybber	Araq: See #12941
12:06:28	disbot	https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/12941 -- 3Newruntime last read analysis broken ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=24VA
12:12:14	FromGitter	<bung87> how to handle this `"en1�\x13\b\x06�@“`
12:12:48	FromGitter	<bung87> when echo a string converted from a cstring
12:15:04	FromDiscord	<mratsim> @dom96 wasn't that fixed in nimble 0.11? https://github.com/fragcolor-xyz/nimtorch/issues/18#issuecomment-565824215
12:15:05	disbot	➥ Nimble installation fails
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12:18:46	FromDiscord	<niv> hello. where could i go for some sample code and/or guidance to make a C-imported function awaitable?
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12:20:09	FromGitter	<sheerluck> I have completed my toy project https://github.com/sheerluck/Toy-Nim-Project-with-Kaitai ⏎ I would like to thank ⏎ ⏎ 1) @sealmove (Stefanos Mandalas) for KaitaiStruct Runtime Library for Nim ⏎ 2) @solitudesf for letting me print inside pure functions with debug_echo ... [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5dfcbc7944e1fb33f6fb46e2]
12:20:58	sealmove	wow sheerluck, what does it do?
12:21:11	FromDiscord	<mratsim> you should rename it to video downloader or what you are doing with it
12:21:54	sealmove	how did you parse ksy?
12:22:04	FromDiscord	<mratsim> one day I'll write a video processing tool in Nim. The current tools are meh
12:22:49	clyybber	mratsim: How do you reference repo code from an issue?
12:23:01	FromGitter	<sheerluck> @sealmove it just walks path and prints top10 longest movies (mkv+webm+mp4)
12:23:10	clyybber	I pasted the link with #L123-#L456 but it just appears as a link
12:23:32	sealmove	how did you parse ksy?
12:23:40	FromDiscord	<mratsim> right click on the line and get permalink or highlight lines, press Y and copy the URL
12:23:55	FromGitter	<sheerluck> @sealmove I cheated I just ported generated code from c++ :(
12:23:55	clyybber	thanks
12:23:56	FromDiscord	<mratsim> you need a precise commit or tags for github to inline the code
12:24:01	clyybber	ah, ok
12:24:07	FromDiscord	<mratsim> master:devel won't work
12:24:11	FromDiscord	<mratsim> v1.0.4 would
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12:25:12	sealmove	sheerluck: ah, ok, hope you can use nimitai soon
12:25:20	sealmove	i am making progress
12:25:34	sealmove	~10/132 pass right now
12:25:40	clyybber	mratsim: Doesn't seem to work: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/12941
12:25:41	disbot	➥ Newruntime last read analysis broken ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=24VA
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12:26:33	clyybber	oh
12:26:34	FromDiscord	<mratsim> edited in
12:26:35	clyybber	now it works
12:26:39	clyybber	ah, thanks!
12:27:02	clyybber	ah, so it was one hashtag too many
12:27:36	Araq	clyybber: we don't try to analyse global vars
12:28:00	clyybber	Hmm
12:28:09	clyybber	I think I can reproduce it without a global var, let me see.
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12:29:20	clyybber	ah, nevermind
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12:37:18	clyybber	Araq: Btw, your append proc in your RFC is broken
12:41:02	Araq	why?
12:41:30	clyybber	It doesn't compile
12:41:32	clyybber	dangling refs
12:41:43	clyybber	I can correct it if you want
12:42:01	clyybber	or send the correct variant
12:42:44	clyybber	Araq: This is how it should look I think: https://hastebin.com/fomexaciso.php
12:42:52	clyybber	oh
12:43:00	clyybber	nevermind, wrong paste
12:45:14	clyybber	Araq: Here it is: http://ix.io/24VK
12:46:07	FromGitter	<iffy> @zacharycarter what's that you're making?
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12:50:07	FromDiscord	<mratsim> @iffy, I'm looking into keyring, nice. THis might be relevant for you: https://github.com/status-im/nim-beacon-chain/issues/545 though we don't have a solution for secure heap management
12:50:08	disbot	➥ Protection of users private keys
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12:51:52	FromDiscord	<mratsim> Go is adding macros: https://github.com/dave/jennifer
12:52:52	lqdev[m]	no, it's not :) it's a separate generator. I'd be surprised if they actually merged it into mainstream, but I know they won't.
12:53:04	FromDiscord	<mratsim> of course I was joking 😉
12:53:20	FromDiscord	<Milerius> PMunch are you around ? :p
12:55:59	PMunch	Yup
12:56:07	PMunch	Always :P
12:56:16	FromDiscord	<Milerius> according to: https://gist.github.com/Milerius/6a72ca18eace612ea5d27ace7f20b74e
12:56:16	FromDiscord	<Milerius>
12:56:16	FromDiscord	<Milerius> is possible to represent correctly the json using jsonschema ?
12:56:40	FromDiscord	<Milerius> my json can be success.json or error.json
12:57:54	PMunch	What is ElectrumAnswer supposed to be?
12:58:09	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Either success.json or error.json
12:58:12	FromDiscord	<Milerius> may be i did it wrong
12:58:34	PMunch	Yeah.. You can't have an object that's either one kind or another
12:58:41	FromDiscord	<Milerius> When i receive success.json i would like to have ElectrumAnswerSuccess, otherwise ElectrumAnswerError
12:58:53	PMunch	But you can do answer: ElectrumAnswerSuccess or ElectrumAnswerError
12:59:03	FromDiscord	<Milerius> yeah but i don't have field answer
12:59:10	FromDiscord	<Milerius> The rpc is not from me :/
12:59:24	PMunch	Then you need to create the types and use isValid to check which one it is
12:59:43	FromDiscord	<Milerius> ok !
12:59:51	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Thank's for explanation !
13:00:29	PMunch	Note that isValid takes a paremeter "allowExtra" which dictates if extra fields is an error or not
13:00:55	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Oh this is cool
13:02:00	PMunch	I guess the extends mechanism could be expanded to include `or` functionality
13:02:12	FromDiscord	<Milerius> It's will be insane !
13:02:23	FromDiscord	<Milerius> For one specific reason
13:02:33	FromDiscord	<Milerius> If i want to store it in a container for Example
13:02:43	FromDiscord	<Milerius> It's will allow me to do: container[ElectrumAnswer]
13:02:56	PMunch	Ah, true
13:04:53	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I would love to help you integrate the functionnality, but i'm really a beginner in nim, i read all your code already
13:04:57	FromDiscord	<Milerius> But it's really advanced ^^'
13:05:12	PMunch	Haha, yeah the jsonschema module is quite messy..
13:05:15	FromDiscord	<Milerius> (bit magic for mec)
13:05:18	FromDiscord	<Milerius> (bit magic for me)
13:05:29	PMunch	TBH it's a bit magic to me as well..
13:06:13	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Yup i understand
13:06:20	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Maybe what can i do is
13:06:23	FromDiscord	<Milerius> when i receive the json
13:06:33	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I can put the whole contents into answer
13:06:40	FromDiscord	<Milerius> But it's will be a bit inneficient
13:06:50	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Especially for big json
13:08:00	PMunch	I mean for putting it in a container you can just cast it back to JsonNode
13:08:13	PMunch	That's free (same object in memory)
13:08:25	PMunch	And manually cast it when you get it out
13:08:33	PMunch	(This can of course be hidden with some templates)
13:08:48	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Or i can use the equivalent of std::variant ?
13:08:50	FromDiscord	<Milerius> in nim
13:09:00	PMunch	Yeah, that is another option
13:09:02	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Container = TypeA or TypeB
13:09:10	FromDiscord	<Milerius> it's work this way ?
13:09:31	PMunch	Depends
13:09:38	PMunch	On what you actually want to do
13:09:53	FromDiscord	<Milerius> well i really want
13:10:10	FromDiscord	<Milerius> electrum["error"].isSome:
13:10:54	PMunch	Hmm
13:11:01	PMunch	https://nim-lang.org/docs/tut2.html#object-oriented-programming-object-variants
13:11:09	PMunch	That is one option, but it's a bit much for this..
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13:14:03	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Yup anyway i will consider that is success
13:14:08	FromDiscord	<Milerius> :p
13:14:20	FromDiscord	<Milerius> But if you implement the include functionnality
13:14:22	FromDiscord	<Milerius> let me know
13:14:39	PMunch	Will do
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13:15:07	PMunch	Looking at the code now and trying to figure out what that would actually look like
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13:15:45	FromGitter	<bung87> `"bridge0�\x13\b\x06�A”` how to handle this? print to console , converted from cstring
13:15:46	FromDiscord	<Milerius> (if it's possible without specifying a name field)
13:16:23	PMunch	bung87, you ace probably given a length somewhere
13:16:30	FromGitter	<Willyboar> sealmove are you greek?
13:17:04	sealmove	yup
13:17:12	PMunch	Or that string is meant to mean something special
13:17:14	FromGitter	<Willyboar> me too
13:17:22	sealmove	nice
13:18:50	sealmove	there is at least another one, "planetis"
13:19:19	FromGitter	<Willyboar> I think i saw one in the forum
13:19:21	sealmove	and another one from Cyprus (forgot nickname)
13:19:47	FromGitter	<bung87> `name = castcstring (sdl.sdl_data.addr) ` then `$name `
13:19:55	FromGitter	<Willyboar> drkameleon
13:23:11	lqdev[m]	sealmove, Willyboar: planetis is on irc too. he uses matrix.
13:23:30	Araq	oh I just realized it's PR friday
13:24:34	clyybber	Araq: I think we'll have to decide between deep-immutability or deep-copy for multithreading
13:24:41	clyybber	it accomplishes the same task
13:24:58	Araq	Nim v1 says we do deep copies
13:25:42	clyybber	I know, what will we do in the future?
13:25:53	Araq	I like neither though, I like unique-ness and move semantics
13:25:59	clyybber	Me too
13:26:30	clyybber	Araq: Btw, pony uses owned refs moving and stuff too
13:26:44	clyybber	Like their iso thing is exactly like owned ref
13:26:51	clyybber	and their ref, well. Its like ref
13:27:13	Araq	can you have a ref inside an iso?
13:27:27	clyybber	Lemme see..
13:28:46	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> @iffy - 3d rts
13:28:47	clyybber	Araq: Yeah, but you cant read or write to it
13:28:55	clyybber	its a "tag" only used for identity
13:30:34	Araq	doesn't sound that useful
13:30:58	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I really want to know what disruptek thinks about the improvement
13:31:51	clyybber	Araq: You can convert the iso to a ref though
13:32:07	clyybber	And then you can access it normally
13:32:18	clyybber	afterwards you can recover it as a iso again
13:34:13	Araq	how does it do that?
13:34:20	clyybber	It has a recover statement
13:34:32	clyybber	Its like a block statement
13:34:36	clyybber	which returns an owned ref
13:35:25	Araq	https://stdlib.ponylang.io/json--index/#sending-json
13:35:38	Araq	but how does 'recover' work? runtime check?
13:36:02	clyybber	And inside it you can have result be some unowned ref. The ref is not allowed to be referenced by variables from outer scopes though, and this way they can guarantee that it is convertible to owned ref/iso
13:36:07	clyybber	Araq: No at compile time
13:36:20	clyybber	Its a smart idea.
13:36:21	FromGitter	<Willyboar> @narimiran no PHP in the survey? :P
13:37:17	Araq	clyybber: for sure, but I don't understand it
13:37:44	clyybber	Araq: https://tutorial.ponylang.io/reference-capabilities/recovering-capabilities.html
13:37:50	clyybber	This explains it a bit better than I can
13:38:28	clyybber	This means that when the recover expression finishes, any aliases to the result of the expression other than iso, val and tag ones won’t exist anymore. That makes it safe to “lift” the reference capability of the result of the expression.
13:38:46	clyybber	Quote from that link
13:39:30	sealmove	ponylang is still active?
13:39:54	FromGitter	<kaushalmodi> Milerius: I just `exec("curl ..")`
13:40:20	FromGitter	<kaushalmodi> Milerius: https://github.com/kaushalmodi/nim_config/blob/bda6f591a0cdd1ff2f158882a31dcc921eb103ba/config.nims#L168-L172
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13:42:01	FromGitter	<Willyboar> @sealmove looks like it is, they have a release few days ago
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13:42:40	Araq	clyybber: I think it only works when Pony already knows json.parse returned an iso
13:44:13	clyybber	No, it works also when f() would return a ref
13:45:57	clyybber	Araq: Inside a recover block you can't use variables from outer scopes to alias the result, that means when the recover block is finished the result can be safely turned into an owned ref
13:46:20	Araq	yeah I understand this part but it's not enough
13:46:30	Araq	you also need to know the constructors
13:46:31	clyybber	Yeah, it works in pony because refs cannot be shared
13:46:38	clyybber	Araq: Why?
13:47:03	Araq	and it looks like this is known by ^ " A constructor always returns an ephemeral type, because it’s a new object."
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13:50:10	clyybber	Araq: Yeah, if you think about it in nim terms it seems unneccessary, its kind of like a workaround for the fact that their constructors dont return an owned ref
13:50:39	Araq	they seem to return the roof though (^)
13:52:49	Araq	ah but I think I still misunderstand it
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13:53:11	Araq	so ... recover cannot access any location from outside?
13:53:17	clyybber	Nope
13:53:35	clyybber	No refs
13:53:40	Araq	string literals?
13:54:05	clyybber	Yeah
13:54:09	clyybber	Its not from outside
13:54:16	clyybber	Since its created
13:54:28	Araq	how can I parse json and recover it to be an iso?
13:55:34	clyybber	`recover json.parse`
13:55:57	clyybber	Though that doesn't make sense in pony..
13:56:10	Araq	// sending an iso doc
13:56:10	Araq	let json_string = "{\"array\":[1, true, null]}"
13:56:10	Araq	let sendable_doc: JsonDoc iso = recover iso JsonDoc.>parse(json_string)? end
13:56:12	Araq	some_actor.send(consume sendable_doc)
13:56:23	Araq	https://stdlib.ponylang.io/json--index/#sending-json
13:57:04	Araq	problem is that the JSon could be in a file and then you have pray file wasn't modelled as 'ref'
13:57:29	clyybber	Yeah
13:57:38	clyybber	But you can prove it at compile time
13:57:45	clyybber	But yeah thats the gist
13:58:03	clyybber	don't use refs from outside and what you'll be left with can be safely turned into an owned ref
13:58:41	Araq	definitely a new insight
13:58:47	clyybber	yeah
13:58:50	clyybber	seems useful
13:59:36	clyybber	I think it should be possible to do it transparently implicitly
13:59:54	clyybber	In static analysis
14:00:16	clyybber	For nim this could mean we could make working with owned ref much simpler
14:00:18	clyybber	easier
14:00:32	clyybber	By implcitly unowning it and recovering it again
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14:02:15	clyybber	This is really cool and makes me all excited about newruntime with owned refs again :D
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14:05:00	Araq	too early. B/D is both simpler and avoids a cycle collector
14:05:26	Araq	hard to beat
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14:12:49	PMunch	Hmm, interesting: http://ix.io/24VW/
14:14:13	FromGitter	<alehander92> sealmove: yes stefanos82 is from cyprus iirc
14:14:48	FromGitter	<alehander92> i and several other people are from bulgaria, so we almost can do a meetup :D
14:15:19	FromGitter	<alehander92> clyybber, interesting, one thing i wonder is how often is `tag` useful in pony
14:15:51	Araq	I don't really understand it so it must be wrong.
14:16:00	Araq	(kidding, of course)
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14:36:29	disruptek	hearts and minds, people; hearts and minds!
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14:39:19	disruptek	i can't get out of a hardware store without spending $200 and i can't implement any new nimph feature without adding 200 lines.
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14:41:37	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> disruptek: did you see the map rendering improvements I shared last night?
14:42:09	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> curious about your thoughts on them
14:42:36	ldlework	zacharycarter you still working on your game engine?
14:42:43	disruptek	no, sorry, irssi reset. where are they?
14:42:52	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I'll re-post
14:43:08	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> https://imgur.com/a/PYEBMNJ
14:43:15	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> and here's a short video
14:43:33	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> https://imgur.com/a/9vFj0J7
14:43:37	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> vs before
14:43:50	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> https://i.imgur.com/SC4WiAJ
14:44:07	dom96	That's awesome :)
14:44:12	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> thanks :D
14:45:44	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> ldlework: no, actually working on build a game now :)
14:46:07	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> but still writing a lot of the plumbing code myself
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14:57:28	disruptek	wow, that's /much/ better.
14:57:51	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> thanks!
14:58:13	disruptek	i always wondered how they did that. 😁
14:58:18	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> those two techniques combined - procedural stochastic texturing and triplanar mapping really worked well together
14:58:31	disruptek	yeah, it's night and day.
14:59:03	disruptek	one of those things that we noticed right away when it started arriving in games.
14:59:15	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> yeah
15:02:29	disruptek	thanks for sharing this stuff with us. it's really inspirational. 👍
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15:06:42	dom96	zacharycarter: what kind of game are you working on? Looks like an RTS to me
15:07:47	clyybber	bbl
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15:08:50	shashlick	dom96: saw the file name issue, will fix, meanwhile what else needs to be done for a choosenim release?
15:09:31	dom96	0.5.0 has technically only just been released, we might want to wait a bit before making another release
15:13:40	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> dom96: yup!
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15:13:56	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> disruptek: haha of course, I appreciate the positive feedback
15:14:32	FromGitter	<alehander92> this is too complicated for me
15:14:44	FromGitter	<alehander92> you literally said like two unclear words for me in one sentence
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15:18:16	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> :P I didn't know about them until yesterday
15:18:37	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> https://www.martinpalko.com/triplanar-mapping/
15:18:42	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> https://blogs.unity3d.com/2019/02/14/procedural-stochastic-texturing-in-unity/
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15:20:45	dom96	zacharycarter: written in Nim? using any engine or doing everything yourself?
15:22:38	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> written in Nim and doing everything myself
15:22:53	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> using a few libraries - like bgfx etc
15:24:02	dom96	Cool. I'm currently finishing off a Nim game written in SDL2, implementing so many drawing primitives has been a pain.
15:24:25	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> nice!
15:25:12	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> yeah - this terrain renderer has taken quite a bit of my time, but I think it's worth it - starting to look decent enough to actually use in a game
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15:25:31	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> and if I can get PBR materials in, it will really pop
15:27:28	FromDiscord	<mratsim> PBR? is taht the raytracing book?
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15:28:23	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> I think the raytracing book does implement PBR - but it's really just a shading model
15:28:47	FromGitter	<zacharycarter> so they're not 1:1 you can have PBR materials and not have raytracing
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15:38:14	madprops	apparently some people find nim's crown creepy lol
15:38:20	Yardanico	what
15:38:37	madprops	"the crown is creepy and so was the previous name, Nimrod."
15:39:20	Araq	well we're getting a new mascot
15:39:28	Yardanico	really?
15:39:32	Yardanico	or :D
15:39:36	Araq	no.
15:39:44	madprops	the logo is perfect as it is
15:40:11	madprops	with that font
15:40:56	federico3	dom96: are you using *GL stuff or plain SDL?
15:42:38	leorize	Araq: is there a way to make the current GC no longer requiring NimMain? This would be useful in making LD_PRELOAD libraries, where you hijack symbols in the target binary so NimMain can't be called
15:43:04	leorize	or should I just update to devel and use --gc:arc to get away from all that?
15:43:04	Araq	leorize: use --gc:arc already
15:43:33	FromDiscord	<mratsim> Come, the crown is reasonable, have they seen gopher or Ferris the crab
15:43:37	FromDiscord	<mratsim> on*
15:44:48	dom96	federico3, plain SDL
15:44:50	Yardanico	python's one is literally a snake XD
15:44:57	federico3	ouch
15:45:02	dom96	Anyone else find this sort of thing incredibly frustrating? https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=24Wf
15:45:14	Yardanico	lenientops ?
15:46:02	dom96	ahh yes, I keep forgetting about this module.
15:46:14	dom96	Makes me uneasy about what else it allows though
15:46:53	federico3	dom96: there's a wrapper for sdl-gpu https://vladar4.github.io/sdl2_nim/sdl_gpu.html
15:47:17	dom96	federico3, it's a 2D game, raw SDL2 isn't so bad
15:47:29	federico3	:-/
15:48:34	dom96	I was tempted to switch to SFML though
15:48:43	Yardanico	yeah csfml is kinda nice
15:48:51	Yardanico	and there's a nim wrapper for it :P
15:49:05	shashlick	dom96: no I was asking about getting choosenim update self to work, and the init script
15:49:12	Yardanico	https://github.com/oprypin/nim-csfml
15:49:15	shashlick	They still only install 0.4.0
15:49:20	Yardanico	"This library consists of class wrappers implemented as ptr object. Because Nim does not allow attaching pointers to the garbage collector, disposal of objects is not implemented and needs to be manual, by calling the destroy methods." right now this can be implemented I think
15:49:28	dom96	shashlick, are you sure? I update the `stable` channel for choosenim
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15:50:15	shashlick	Ok it wasn't last night so
15:50:24	dom96	Yardanico, I used that package for https://github.com/dom96/ld40/
15:51:12	dom96	probably should have stuck to it since I managed to make some sort of game with it in 48 hours
15:51:32	dom96	but sunk-cost and all that
15:51:48	dom96	shashlick, updated today
15:52:34	dom96	Yardanico, I'm also certain that SDL2 can be used with Nim and webasm, not sure about SFML on that
15:52:53	Yardanico	yeah, it seems there's no such support
15:53:22	FromGitter	<alehander92> madprops i actually agree with those people, the previous name is not good
15:53:51	Yardanico	The previous name was okay for me since I don't really knew or used "Nimrod" in its bad definition :P
15:53:58	Yardanico	didn't*
15:55:26	FromGitter	<alehander92> madprops interested where you saw that
15:56:49	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> is there a way to specify that an argument passed to a macro can't be a literal?
15:57:17	FromDiscord	<Generic> it can be if you use static
15:57:31	FromGitter	<alehander92> you can do a macro which takes a literal with static
15:57:33	FromDiscord	<Generic> e.g. macro blarg(x: static[int]): untyped = discard
15:57:41	FromGitter	<alehander92> and make it produce an error on compile time
15:57:43	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> ah, perfect. thanks!
15:57:45	FromGitter	<alehander92> and then!
15:57:57	FromGitter	<alehander92> make another overload which cant take a literal which will only work
15:58:37	FromGitter	<alehander92> Fern, Generic: notice you need this workaround if the wish is that it *can not* be a literal
16:00:11	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> yes, that's exactly what i want
16:00:15	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> thank you :)
16:08:32	*	ng0 quit (Quit: Alexa, when is the end of world?)
16:09:53	disruptek	today we make cookies.
16:09:57	disruptek	what's a good cookie to make?
16:16:37	livcd_	.erlang.cookie
16:17:17	disruptek	erlang gives me hives.
16:17:58	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` don't be jealous of Erlang Gang
16:18:39	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` Has anyone seen a good implementation of an AMQP library in Nim? I've only seen an implementatin of STOMP so far
16:19:53	disruptek	not aware of anything.
16:19:56	FromGitter	<bung87> there is zmq
16:19:59	*	icebattle joined #nim
16:20:07	disruptek	!repo mqtt
16:20:08	disbot	https://github.com/barnybug/nim-mqtt -- 9nim-mqtt: 11mqtt wrapper for nim 15 5⭐ 1🍴 7& 4 more...
16:20:18	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I can also play this game. As anyone seen a tensor libraries in Erlang? 😛
16:20:20	disruptek	!repo zevv/nmqtt
16:20:21	disbot	https://github.com/zevv/nmqtt -- 9nmqtt: 11Native Nim MQTT client library 15 5⭐ 0🍴
16:30:54	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> i have a nimble package split up into multiple files. is there any way to get that to work in just one import statement? should i just use `include`?
16:35:11	*	endragor joined #nim
16:35:34	disruptek	you can use commas to separate multiple import targets.
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16:36:17	dom96	gotta love that trailing comma being ignored https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=24Wo
16:36:34	disruptek	feature.
16:37:40	madprops	weird echo
16:38:14	madprops	i always inline it, without parens
16:38:47	dom96	It's a repro of a longer piece of code
16:39:37	dom96	currently trying to work out why colors.`$` isn't called on my colour but instead the `system` one.
16:40:44	dom96	ugh, so annoying to get stuck on such silly things
16:42:17	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> disruptek: i meant import one module (the "main" one if you will) and have the rest silently come along?
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16:46:48	dom96	Fern: in the main module use "export moduleA, moduleB" then import that module
16:55:56	FromGitter	<bung87> when wrap macos sdk, how to declare a proc return expected result type or a error number ?
16:58:00	FromGitter	<bung87> I realize other language wrap c not like the Nim way, clearly declare a type or proc coming from which header file.
16:58:04	disruptek	let your wrapping proc set a var argument. return an error code or zero.
16:58:52	FromGitter	<bung87> ` result type or a error number`
16:59:13	disruptek	the proc returns a type?
16:59:19	FromDiscord	<badassiel> I was wondering if anyone was working on a client sdk for nim?
16:59:25	FromGitter	<bung87> a type or number
16:59:39	disruptek	client sdk for what serv(er|ice)?
16:59:50	FromDiscord	<badassiel> *client matrix sdk
16:59:53	*	silvernode quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
17:00:01	FromGitter	<bung87> https://developer.apple.com/documentation/iokit/1514741-ioiteratornext?language=occ
17:00:20	disruptek	shashlick knows things about matterbridge... wicked, wicked things.
17:00:40	FromGitter	<bung87> yeah,I knew him
17:01:30	FromDiscord	<badassiel> oh wow didn't know matterbridge existed
17:01:34	oz	disruptek: well matterbridge is wicked to start with. :)
17:01:34	disruptek	if you want to wrap that, just make a real iterator that only returns values.
17:01:40	FromGitter	<bung87> I know Nim has Option type not sure can be used in wrap
17:01:50	disruptek	it can, but to what end?
17:02:02	disruptek	iterators are a thing nim programmers like to use.
17:03:15	FromGitter	<bung87> I want things to be simple, this task mainly is reading document and source. not like I am programing…..
17:04:11	FromGitter	<bung87> almost 1k line during wrap this on macOS...
17:04:22	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` Are there any ETL libraries in Nim?
17:06:03	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> disruptek: thanks!
17:06:06	FromGitter	<bung87> there are several lib, tools
17:06:30	disruptek	what did i do?
17:06:57	FromGitter	<bung87> not aware of all in one ETL project.
17:07:22	disruptek	the whole concept of ETL is too vague, honestly.
17:08:01	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` Interesting. It looks like Nim has a great sql library in the std lib so seems like a nice language for etl
17:09:23	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` > <@gitter_fromirc:matrix.org> *<disruptek>* the whole concept of ETL is too vague, honestly. ⏎ ⏎ To me ETL libraries end up being a set of connections (with a generic way to create new conneciton types) and some way to pipe data between those connections
17:09:40	FromGitter	<bung87> I know there are ,xml,csv,docx libs
17:11:02	disruptek	i'm not aware of a framework like that. i've never even used something like that in another language.
17:12:45	disruptek	it does feel like AQMP but i think you'd be better-served by something simpler.
17:13:01	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` There are a number of different approaches to the problem. You could probably consider spark an ETL library (or maybe something like pandas in python), then you have apache airflow which is more cron based etl approach
17:13:08	FromGitter	<alehander92> disruptek ohh cookies
17:14:55	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` You might consider a stream based library an ETL one too. So I agree that its a very vague concept.
17:15:50	disruptek	it's just hard to imagine a glue-like product that seeps into all the specific cracks needed for application.
17:16:13	disruptek	usually, you end up needing to customize pretty extensively.
17:17:04	solitudesf	disruptek, is it really necessary for nimph to write hints of every nimble package i have installed every time i perform any operation with it? it is the compiler's output, but i think you should silence it.
17:17:19	salotz[m]	is this the new nim mascot? https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/front/c/3/c3a2c39b-b302-4cc3-b507-e4fe00614036.jpg?1562157213
17:17:31	disruptek	can i see the output?
17:17:31	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` I think my ideal solution would give you async backpressure pipelines between connections and you'd be responsible for making the connections yourself and getting data out of them (via query or whatever)
17:17:45	disruptek	solitudesf: compile nimph with -d:release and it will be quiet.
17:17:56	solitudesf	its compiled with -d:danger
17:18:06	disruptek	weird, lemme see.
17:18:07	solitudesf	`/home/solitude/.nimble/pkgs/nimes-0.1/nim.cfg(14, 178) Hint: line too long [LineTooLong]` here's sample.
17:18:43	disruptek	oh, that's from the compiler's parser?
17:18:50	disruptek	i should be able to toggle that hint off.
17:18:57	disruptek	what other hints are spamming you?
17:19:06	solitudesf	thats the only one
17:19:39	disruptek	i will figure that out, or you can try toggling it in config.nim.
17:19:50	disruptek	that's where i toggle hinting about conf reads...
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17:20:32	disruptek	what does nim consider a "too long" line in a config file, and why?
17:20:57	solitudesf	im just gonna uninstall the package. is there a reason for nimph to relay these things to a user?
17:21:19	disruptek	it's not in nimph code. it's code imported from the compiler.
17:21:40	disruptek	i don't think users need to see it, but i cannot directly control side-effects of parsing.
17:21:53	solitudesf	nice
17:22:08	disruptek	i'm pretty sure we can just toggle the hint.
17:22:30	disruptek	eg. line 94.
17:22:32	solitudesf	well, i only see that because of `verbosity:2`, im pretty sure
17:22:36	disruptek	how is nimph working other than that?
17:23:34	solitudesf	no clue, i just ran it on bunch of my existing packages and didn't need to do anything. im gonna try using it with a new one.
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17:24:50	solitudesf	im going to need a name for it. its a program that expands text snippets as you type by *monitoring your input and abusing clipboard*. i couldn't come up with anything other that String EXpander.
17:24:51	lqdev[m]	could someone look into this? it's preventing me from continuing my projects. https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/12942
17:24:51	disruptek	nimph 0.5.7 should fix that spam.
17:24:53	disbot	➥ Default procedure parameters are untyped ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=24WF
17:25:19	disruptek	disbot: you're terrible. go back to school.
17:25:20	disbot	on it. 👍
17:26:59	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` i think echo was an interesting choice
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17:27:21	lqdev[m]	@grantmwilliams: why?
17:27:59	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` i just wouldnt expect many languages to choose echo over print or procedure over function
17:28:05	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Hello
17:28:13	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` i dont have any problems with it, but i do think its interesting
17:28:17	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Is it normal that the hash of 2 string that have the same content are different ?
17:28:57	disruptek	function is a thing; a side-effect-free procedure.
17:29:04	disruptek	keyword `func`.
17:29:16	Yardanico	FromDiscord: what do you mean by "hash"?
17:29:40	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I want to retrieve a unique id from a string in nim, this id should be the same if 2 string have the same word
17:29:42	disruptek	solitudesf: how does it abuse the clipboard?
17:29:53	FromDiscord	<Milerius> hash("foo") == hash("foo")
17:30:06	disruptek	milerius: sounds amazing.
17:30:13	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` i just think its interesting that the term procedure made it into the language
17:30:36	disruptek	what would you use, noting that `function` is taken by functions?
17:31:14	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` i mean you could have a pure keyword infront of function for ones without side effects
17:31:31	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` but i dont actually have a problem with proc being in the language. i just said it was interesting not bad in any way
17:31:32	solitudesf	disruptek, well, it just copies needed text into it and simulates ctrl-v or whatever. just dont know if there is a better way. and it will going to be X only.
17:31:45	Yardanico	!eval echo(hash("foo") == hash("foo"))
17:31:47	NimBot	Compile failed: /usercode/in.nim(1, 6) Error: undeclared identifier: 'hash'
17:31:55	disruptek	xclip-like, then?
17:31:55	FromGitter	<matrixbot> `grantmwilliams` rust's ownership model is interesting too
17:31:59	Yardanico	!eval import hashes; echo(hash("foo") == hash("foo"))
17:32:02	NimBot	true
17:32:21	FromDiscord	<Milerius> This is not working for me
17:32:33	Yardanico	!eval import hashes; echo(hash("foo") == hash("foo"))
17:32:35	NimBot	true
17:32:39	Yardanico	hm
17:32:50	FromDiscord	<Milerius> can i show my example ?
17:33:10	disruptek	if you use a pastebin. 😁
17:33:12	solitudesf	disruptek, it should be like this thing https://github.com/federico-terzi/espanso but not filled with useless garbage, and not dropping to cpp for half the code.
17:33:44	disruptek	cool.
17:33:57	disruptek	what do you need to do?
17:34:41	solitudesf	i need to write it
17:34:58	disruptek	to make it work on wayland. 😈
17:35:38	solitudesf	is it possible on wayland? its basically a keylogger
17:35:43	FromDiscord	<Milerius> ok hash work, my problem come from some thing else
17:35:51	disruptek	well, xclip works, somehow.
17:35:58	disruptek	i'm using it in my ix paster.
17:36:08	federico3	if you give it permissions...
17:37:14	disruptek	solitude don't take no shit. i like that.
17:37:38	disruptek	we need more unsatisfied users.
17:38:12	FromDiscord	<Milerius> But i have a serious problem understanding what is appening here: https://gist.github.com/Milerius/f12cbd83e727ec788383d7198644b13f
17:38:30	disruptek	you uploaded some code to a github gist.
17:39:12	FromDiscord	<Milerius> yep
17:39:50	disruptek	i do believe that RICK is the tickler.
17:40:00	disruptek	at least, it felt like RICK.
17:40:41	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Yeah...
17:40:43	FromDiscord	<Milerius> hash is the same
17:40:48	FromDiscord	<Milerius> string are equal
17:40:51	FromDiscord	<Milerius> len is the same
17:41:03	FromDiscord	<Milerius> but when use key it's working, when using ticker is crashing
17:41:05	FromDiscord	<Milerius> 🤷
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17:43:03	disruptek	cm_at has a side-effect?
17:43:12	FromDiscord	<Milerius> const
17:43:22	Yardanico	where is is_ticker_present defined?
17:43:33	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I updated the gist
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17:46:19	disruptek	i'm assuming that it only crashes when you uncomment the earlier cm_at call against ticker.
17:46:31	FromDiscord	<Milerius> nop
17:46:33	FromDiscord	<Milerius> even in the loop
17:46:35	disruptek	is that wrong? are you changing the second call?
17:46:37	FromDiscord	<Milerius> i replace key by ticker
17:46:42	FromDiscord	<Milerius> it's not working
17:46:45	FromDiscord	<Milerius> in the loop
17:46:56	disruptek	what if you compose a new instance of a string?
17:47:23	disruptek	i'm thinking that it's the magical cstring semantics.
17:48:09	FromDiscord	<Milerius> ok if i use an int as key
17:48:11	FromDiscord	<Milerius> it's working
17:48:13	FromDiscord	<Milerius> instead of string
17:48:17	disruptek	ie. $typeof(key) == "cstring"
17:48:17	FromDiscord	<Milerius> i use the hash
17:49:00	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Yeah key is a cstring
17:49:02	disruptek	let cticker: cstring = ticker ... cm_at(cticker)
17:49:27	FromDiscord	<Milerius> i'm checking
17:49:37	disruptek	I NEED ANSWERS NOW
17:49:45	FromDiscord	<Milerius> second
17:49:46	disruptek	omg cookies. we forgot cookies.
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17:50:56	FromDiscord	<Milerius> crashing with cticker
17:50:58	FromDiscord	<Milerius> @disruptek
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17:51:34	disruptek	curiouser and curiouser.
17:54:07	disruptek	so the problem here is that your indexer, at(), isn't able to match keys in the hash/ass-array/dict/map.
17:54:38	disruptek	why not modify that code to see what input it's receiving?
17:54:57	FromDiscord	<Milerius> idk, this class work for sure in C++ i'm using it with strings
17:54:59	FromDiscord	<Milerius> i never get problems
17:55:03	FromDiscord	<Milerius> i'm switching to nim now
17:55:10	FromDiscord	<Milerius> May be it's my fault, probably
17:55:17	FromDiscord	<Milerius> but i cannot understand where is my prob
17:55:24	FromDiscord	<Milerius> anyway i will move forward with integer as key for now
17:55:50	disruptek	well, this will bite you again until we understand it.
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17:56:17	disruptek	you can look at the code nim generates by investigating the nimcache.
17:56:23	FromDiscord	<Milerius> Yup, but i have deadlines for work, so i will move forward and take more time on it latter
17:57:17	FromDiscord	<Milerius> PMunch are you around?
17:57:43	disruptek	i think your cm_at() is not comparing strings but is instead comparing pointer values. hence key works because it came right out of the map.
17:58:04	disruptek	i'm just guessing as to how it's implemented, though.
17:58:10	FromGitter	<alehander92> but let cticker: cstring = ticker
17:58:14	FromGitter	<alehander92> isnt really what you want
17:58:30	disruptek	no, it's irrelevant. i was just curious.
17:58:44	FromGitter	<alehander92> you want to convert the nim string to c string, and iirc the nim c string starts on ->data
17:58:50	FromGitter	<alehander92> which is not the first field
17:58:54	FromGitter	<Willyboar> Hello guys
17:59:07	disruptek	it doesn't matter; nim converts it all for us.
17:59:33	disruptek	hello mr. boar.
17:59:48	FromGitter	<alehander92> does it??
17:59:50	FromGitter	<Willyboar> hello dis
17:59:52	FromGitter	<alehander92> ticker.cstring does
18:00:00	FromGitter	<alehander92> but maybe the let thing does also
18:01:04	disruptek	yeah, i was thinking maybe it was due to the ephemeral key var but now i'm pretty sure it's just a simple error in cm_at.
18:01:33	disruptek	occam's razor.
18:02:31	FromDiscord	<Milerius> yeah but my cm_at is just importing the C++ function
18:02:32	FromDiscord	<Milerius> as it
18:02:49	disruptek	yes, bugs exist in c++, too.
18:02:51	disruptek	it is known.
18:03:08	FromDiscord	<Milerius> probably
18:03:46	disruptek	so. cookies.
18:03:52	disruptek	i'm thinking molasses.
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18:10:40	FromDiscord	<Milerius> I'm missing PMunch so much my guardian :p
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18:11:22	opi	hi, I'm trying to build Nim out of source on RPi, it was working before, but now invoking build.sh throws an error, any hints?
18:11:23	opi	typedef int Nim_and_C_compiler_disagree_on_target_architecture[sizeof(NI) == sizeof(void*) && NIM_INTBITS == sizeof(NI)*8 ? 1 : -1];
18:12:24	Yardanico	that tells you what's the problem
18:14:23	opi	Yardanico: I understand what the problem is, but I don't really know how to solve it, otherwise I wouldn't ask. I have limited knowledge about compiler internals
18:14:45	Yardanico	well, what exactly are you running?
18:14:48	Yardanico	sh build_all.sh ?
18:15:22	opi	I did both cd csources && sh build.sh and build_all up top
18:15:35	opi	the kernel is 32 bit but the target says 64
18:15:54	Yardanico	well, you don't need to do that manually
18:16:03	Yardanico	just clone the nim repo, cd into it and run `sh build_all.sh`
18:16:12	FromGitter	<alehander92> Araq
18:16:25	Yardanico	opi: maybe your C compiler is 64-bit for some reason?
18:16:32	FromGitter	<alehander92> lets have `smellonly` variables, @Willyboar gave me a great idea to model food
18:16:39	FromGitter	<alehander92> sorry, vacation mood already
18:17:03	opi	Yardanico: that's a possibility, I've been tinkering around on that system without paying much attention
18:17:53	FromDiscord	<mratsim> if there is an mismatch between the compiler and the kernel you need to pass ucpu=aarch64 or ucpu=armv7 it's an environment variable
18:18:17	FromDiscord	<mratsim> for example this is my build for building 32-bit nim on 64-bit: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/blob/master/azure-pipelines.yml#L43
18:18:26	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I get arch mismatch otherwise
18:20:58	opi	thank you mratsim, I'm going to look into it
18:23:16	opi	yeah, I see the lines that overwrite the CPU in build.sh, that may be it
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18:24:38	opi	./build.sh --cpu armv7 worked for me, thanks!
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19:01:28	shashlick	Some new nimterop cli features cooking: --output to to file, --prefix --suffix to strip symbols without cPlugin, --check to Nim check the generated wrapper, and --stub to stub out undeclared identifier errors as objects automatically
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19:03:30	disruptek	how does stub work?
19:04:00	disruptek	i mean, will that fix my nimsuggest?
19:11:15	shashlick	Nope that's still on the backlog
19:11:58	shashlick	If certain symbols are not in the header or nimterop can stub them for you
19:12:18	shashlick	Assuming you don't really need them for your use case
19:12:36	disruptek	oh, i see.
19:13:11	disruptek	so this would let us pull the nimterop requirement out of nimgit, right?
19:13:35	disruptek	assuming we lock it to a particular version, etc.
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19:18:21	shashlick	The cimport stuff maybe, depending on what all needs done
19:18:29	shashlick	But not the getHeader stuff though
19:19:04	shashlick	You are asking about https://github.com/nimterop/nimterop/issues/125
19:19:06	disbot	➥ Provide stand-alone operation
19:19:57	disruptek	right.
19:20:44	disruptek	when we add staticCurrentDir we'll be able to simplify some of this.
19:20:57	disruptek	ie. we can make relativePath work.
19:22:14	disruptek	leorize: this would be pretty cool for nim.nvim: https://github.com/ryanluker/vscode-coverage-gutters
19:23:15	lqdev[m]	why do tests fail on `--gc:orc`? I just forked and cloned
19:23:43	disruptek	it's not yet christmas.
19:23:46	Yardanico	arc* :P
19:23:52	lqdev[m]	orc.
19:24:00	lqdev[m]	I can read logs, mate.
19:24:05	Yardanico	xd
19:24:29	lqdev[m]	iirc orc was a variation of arc, but I can't really remember what's the difference
19:26:10	disruptek	one doesn't work, and the other one is broken.
19:26:56	shashlick	disruptek: I don't think we will get there with nimterop
19:27:05	disruptek	whaaa
19:27:15	disruptek	why not?
19:27:20	shashlick	Unlike c2nim which is a dev tool, nimterop is used at build time on the target system
19:27:46	disruptek	hmm, fair point.
19:27:52	shashlick	So the wrappers you generate are specific to the build system since preprocessor is already run
19:28:10	shashlick	I don't see how we can resolve this with this model
19:28:15	disruptek	we obviously need another layer of wrappers.
19:28:31	disruptek	introducing nimteropterop.
19:28:51	shashlick	I don't see the value in managing the cross platform stuff typically done in preprocessor
19:28:58	shashlick	Hard enough dealing with C
19:29:02	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I think I'll rename one of my library Urukh-Hai to go along gc:orc
19:29:21	shashlick	Maybe some day
19:29:41	shashlick	I'd rather spend time improving what we have and get to c++
19:29:45	shashlick	Open to feedback though
19:30:18	FromDiscord	<mratsim> maybe read this: https://github.com/status-im/nim-beacon-chain/issues/640
19:30:19	disbot	➥ [RFC] producing more robust wrappers for external C libraries
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19:33:37	shashlick	Will do
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19:38:28	clyybber	Araq: We can apply this advanced form of static analysis to B/D though, and thats the great thing.
19:38:41	clyybber	It is essentially automatically inserting unown
19:38:52	clyybber	and *own* into the right places
19:38:53	FromDiscord	<mratsim> somehow I read can apply as crappy
19:39:54	FromGitter	<bung87> @shashlick what do you think about rust and go have libc wrap?
19:41:26	Araq	clyybber: probably
19:42:26	shashlick	bung87: will have to research, sori no idea
19:44:54	FromGitter	<bung87> ok
19:47:14	clyybber	Araq: This could be big, as evident from your wrong prepend proc :p
19:47:23	clyybber	s/prepend/append
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19:48:49	disruptek	i can emit (key: key, val: value) from a pairs() iterator but only (key, value) from an mpairs().
19:49:08	clyybber	hmm
19:49:14	clyybber	report it
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20:07:28	disruptek	http://ix.io/24XB
20:16:52	clyybber	disbot: You sleepin?
20:17:07	clyybber	or is he smart now?
20:18:53	shashlick	@mratsim: so he wants to have access to preprocessor macros?
20:19:25	shashlick	i do get that info in nimterop, could be converted into templates but the RHS is not trivial since you just get a blob of code which needs to nimmized
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20:23:53	disruptek	disbot doesn't share ix links anymore because pmunch.
20:24:19	FromGitter	<Willyboar> ???
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20:30:36	FromDiscord	<Milerius> imariscal in in the chat ?
20:38:35	FromGitter	<zetashift> you mean @lmariscal?
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20:46:54	FromDiscord	<mratsim> we want to minimize manual intervention in crazy wrappers
20:47:23	disruptek	what fun would that be?
20:49:11	*	sagax quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
20:49:22	shashlick	that's exactly what i care about
20:49:29	shashlick	i don't like anything manual as much as possible
20:50:04	shashlick	am replying to that thread, but meanwhile, will also run through ncurses and libbacktrace and see what a nimterop wrapper will look like
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20:54:22	clyybber	disruptek: Oh, why?
20:54:40	disruptek	he felt it was spammy.
20:55:20	disruptek	i guess he pastes a lot of non-nim stuff to the channel and it was uselessly posting playground links for it.
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20:59:17	clyybber	:9
20:59:19	clyybber	:(
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21:10:02	disruptek	`nimph graph` can now dump releases and version-changing commits: https://github.com/disruptek/nimph#graph
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21:28:33	lqdev[m]	can anyone help me with a workaround for this? https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/12942
21:28:34	disbot	➥ Default procedure parameters are untyped ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=24WF
21:28:54	lqdev[m]	I've been struggling at this for hours now, and I'm simply unable to come up with something reliable.
21:31:26	disruptek	can you get the type of the later occurence of thing?
21:32:24	disruptek	just discard it so you can fetch the type and then literally discard your discard statement if you wanna be anal.
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21:36:03	lqdev[m]	disruptek: not really, because `thing` could be defined in a different module, at least afaict.
21:36:21	disruptek	why does that matter?
21:36:53	disruptek	1) have a macro put discards in for every param.
21:37:03	disruptek	2) have a macro read those discards to get the types.
21:37:06	disruptek	3) profit!
21:37:39	lqdev[m]	it's not related to `discard`s, take a look at the output I provided in the issue
21:38:01	lqdev[m]	the fact that the default parameter is untyped makes it impossible for me to get its type
21:38:05	disruptek	i did. i noticed that you have sym for thing in the discard statement.
21:38:06	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> is there a way for a macro to traverse a nested data structure?
21:38:42	disruptek	fern: sure.
21:38:59	disruptek	fern: the ast is one such data structure.
21:39:40	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> hmmm, trying to figure out how to word this properly
21:39:55	lqdev[m]	disruptek: the thing is, once I get to that parameter, I can't really add another semantic pass without introducing large amounts of complexity into my lib
21:40:42	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> nvm, it was getTypeImpl i was looking for
21:40:57	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> oh crap, that requires a typed param and i can't do those
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21:41:36	Yardanico	an untyped param can't have a type because it's not semchecked by the compiler yet (IIRC)
21:41:39	lqdev[m]	fern: defer that to another macro that you `newCall(bindSym"someMacroThatAcceptsTyped")`
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21:42:27	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> what does `newCall` do?
21:43:09	lqdev[m]	fern: it creates a new call node to the procedure in the first parameter, passing arguments from the rest of the parameters.
21:43:23	lqdev[m]	disruptek: take a look at https://github.com/liquid600pgm/euwren/blob/master/src/euwren.nim#L482
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21:44:08	lqdev[m]	this is where the default parameter causes a problem
21:44:30	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> lqdev[m]: so does that `newCall(bindSym...)` add type information for an untyped macro?
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21:44:48	lqdev[m]	fern: no, it just generates a call like `someProc(a, b, c, …)`
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21:45:03	disruptek	i would rewrite it in a lower macro.
21:45:25	lqdev[m]	fern: you can output that from your `untyped` macro, and the call can contain the parameters you need as `typed`
21:45:33	disruptek	yay, nimph doesn't work with cpp.
21:45:37	FromDiscord	<Fern & Simula (They/Them)> not sure that would help me. i think i'll just rewrite the macro as typed and use discard statements
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21:47:10	lqdev[m]	disruptek: what do you mean, "lower macro"?
21:47:35	disruptek	a macro that rewrites the ast prior to L482 in euwren.nim.
21:48:39	lqdev[m]	maybe I could implement `getParamList` itself as a macro, and call it somewhere inbetween, or something
21:48:43	lqdev[m]	I don't know
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21:53:26	disruptek	that's the idea.
21:53:51	disruptek	you have something else consume the proc and annotate it with discards that'll get sym'd for later.
21:55:31	lqdev[m]	it doesn't really have to be annotated with discards and stuff, just do anything that'll cause these poor untyped values to get semchecked
21:55:38	disruptek	yes.
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22:02:42	lqdev[m]	guess something like this https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=24Yf
22:03:09	lqdev[m]	too bad I can't use tuples here, would make for much cleaner code
22:04:42	disruptek	i was thinking addProcAux would just rewrite the proc with a discard as the first line of the body. then anything that operates on it can just read that line to determine types.
22:04:54	disruptek	that's what i meant by annotation.
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22:06:05	shashlick	that took longer than I hoped, but was fun nonetheless - https://github.com/status-im/nim-beacon-chain/issues/640#issuecomment-568105020
22:06:05	disbot	➥ [RFC] producing more robust wrappers for external C libraries
22:06:46	shashlick	ended up making libbacktrace and libncurses wrappers
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22:07:10	shashlick	@mratsim - hope it is valuable to your team
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22:09:01	disruptek	shashlick, you are bringing to reality the as-yet merely promised potential of nim.
22:10:11	disruptek	the pragmatic point is, if it's too burdensome to create wrappers, it doesn't matter how good the ffi is.
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22:16:13	shashlick	yep and i'm still at the `create wrappers` step, there's still the part of making it easy to use the wrappers
22:16:52	shashlick	raw C wrappers aren't all that nice
22:16:56	disruptek	so much potential.
22:17:59	disruptek	so nimph doesn't work with cpp.
22:19:57	disruptek	something related to mutable iteration, i think.
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22:30:04	dom96	I'm personally still of the opinion that we can get an awesome experience by creating a macro which generates wrappers at compile-time using libclang
22:31:46	disruptek	nimterop will be able to generate wrappers for myriad languages, though, and without the weight of clang.
22:34:51	shashlick	dom96 - nimterop is exactly you statement with s/libclang/tree-sitter/
22:38:48	dom96	it generates wrappers at nimble install-time though, not compile-time, right?
22:39:29	FromDiscord	<mratsim> @clyyber, I finally solved my Glibc bug, and I confirm it's Glibc which has a flaky condition variable implementation
22:40:05	disruptek	dom96: nimterop works at project compile-time, just the way you'd expect.
22:40:10	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I remimplemented condvar from scratch 😄
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22:48:09	clyybber	mratsim: Damn, good job. I'll have to take a look
22:48:26	FromDiscord	<mratsim> it's short: https://github.com/mratsim/weave/pull/58/files
22:48:27	disbot	➥ Me 1 - 0 Glibc: replace buggy Glibc condvar by futex
22:48:34	Yardanico	did you report it?
22:48:39	Yardanico	just curious to see the devs responses
22:48:42	FromDiscord	<mratsim> nop
22:48:59	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I don't want to deal with their bug tracker from the 2000s
22:49:40	FromDiscord	<mratsim> + reproducing a C test case would be too time-consuming
22:49:46	FromDiscord	<mratsim> creating a C test case*
22:50:01	clyybber	mratsim: Wait, and it made it faster? Or at least more mem efficient?
22:51:00	FromDiscord	<mratsim> obviously
22:51:09	FromDiscord	<mratsim> everything in pthread is based on futex
22:51:16	FromDiscord	<mratsim> mutex, condvar, semaphore
22:51:27	FromDiscord	<mratsim> at a low-level it's the unique way to put a thread to sleep
22:51:36	shashlick	dom96: you are thinking of nimgen
22:51:40	FromDiscord	<mratsim> condvar with timeout, lock with timeout
22:51:52	FromDiscord	<mratsim> so it's also faster
22:52:08	clyybber	Well thats just fucking nice :D
22:52:26	FromDiscord	<mratsim> benefits of formal verification 😉
22:52:39	FromDiscord	<mratsim> I know that naked wait + wake are enough
22:53:08	clyybber	Why is it only enabled on linux though?
22:53:09	FromDiscord	<mratsim> locks and condvars have a lots of if/else/if/else to avoid race conditions and misuses
22:53:20	FromDiscord	<mratsim> Only Linux and Windows have futex
22:53:23	dom96	shashlick, oh, I see. that's awesome.
22:53:28	FromDiscord	<mratsim> MacOS and BSD don't have them
22:53:35	clyybber	Thats a shame
22:53:43	clyybber	well, at least they don't have that bug
22:53:48	shashlick	Nimarchive used in choosenim is a nimterop based wrapper
22:54:04	FromDiscord	<mratsim> here is an intro: https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2018/basics-of-futexes/
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22:54:26	dom96	shashlick, how mature is it? What are the chances it will just work (TM) if I throw any header file at it?
22:56:17	dom96	also, does it support C/C++/ObjC equally well?
22:57:06	clyybber	mratsim: Hmm, I'm pretty sure BSD has futex
22:57:22	clyybber	at least OpenBSD, and then probably Free and Dragonfly too
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23:00:14	FromDiscord	<mratsim> seems like it's from 2016
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23:07:46	FromDiscord	<niv> dom96: hi! can i do await sleepAsync(0) as a valid "yield to scheduler" thing?
23:07:55	*	solitudesf quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
23:08:22	dom96	niv: sure. that will work, but what is your use case?
23:08:26	FromDiscord	<mratsim> you can do cpuRelax() if you compile with threads:on
23:09:06	FromDiscord	<niv> im calling into a C lib in a while loop, so i need to yield once in a while to allow other fibers to run
23:09:38	FromDiscord	<niv> while true: { mydata = recv(timeout=5); handle(myadata); await sleepAsync(0) }
23:09:59	FromDiscord	<mratsim> oh, don't use cpuRelax then 😉
23:10:01	shashlick	dom96: it only supports C, and restricts to header files only, no implementation
23:10:03	FromDiscord	<niv> yeah!
23:10:07	dom96	yes, that will work, but it's not ideal: it'll busy loop your CPU
23:10:24	FromDiscord	<niv> no, it wont. the recv call sleeps on a cv/lock until the timeout has passed
23:10:29	FromDiscord	<niv> so sleepAsync gets called every 5ms
23:10:39	shashlick	dom96: it works well enough since it only wraps what it recognizes
23:10:51	shashlick	dom96: so you don't error out
23:10:53	dom96	niv: isn't `recv` awaited?
23:10:57	FromDiscord	<niv> seems to work fine in testing. can i do sleepAsync(0) or is there something that will short-circuit it on some platforms to "do nothing"?
23:11:16	FromDiscord	<niv> dom: its not actually recv, its a custom function that's just named like that but doesnt use sockets underneath
23:11:35	FromDiscord	<niv> its a wrapper around openssl DTLS. its somewhat hairy.
23:11:55	FromDiscord	<niv> i wouldnt mind making it async itself, but i havent had a chance to really dig into what would be needed to do that on the C side
23:12:54	dom96	sleepAsync(0) shouldn't be short circuited, but you might wish to use `1` instead to be certain
23:13:09	dom96	for future proofing :)
23:13:20	FromDiscord	<niv> ok! thanks.
23:13:33	FromDiscord	<niv> how do i make something awaitable from the C side? where can i start looking?
23:14:43	dom96	https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/lib/pure/asyncdispatch.nim#L1339-L1367
23:15:12	FromDiscord	<niv> ok, i guess i can do that. thanks. it's been a very long day so far
23:15:25	dom96	it could be tough depending on what you're doing
23:15:55	FromDiscord	<niv> the mentioned recv call just blocks on a condition_var until a queue can cough up one or more packets, then it returns them
23:16:07	dom96	the basic approach is: register an FD with the underlying selector, call `addRead`/`addWrite` to get a callback when the FD is readable/writeable, wrap that in a proc which handles the callback and completes the future appropriately
23:16:20	FromDiscord	<niv> i dont get access to the fd unfortunately. i'd have to fake it
23:16:36	FromDiscord	<niv> DTLS abstracts all of that pretty much away, best i can tell
23:16:46	dom96	you might be able to use the condition var, it's possible that epoll/kqueue gives readiness info for it
23:17:19	FromDiscord	<niv> i'll look into it next year. for now, this should be enough not to suck too badly perf wise
23:17:38	dom96	sure
23:18:40	FromDiscord	<niv> i am excited to see how well this will perform :)
23:20:13	FromDiscord	<niv> are you on discord perchance, where i could brazenly PM you?
23:20:47	dom96	yeah, I'm there but don't open it very often
23:21:03	FromDiscord	<niv> i'll tell you a bit about what this is for, you might get a kick out of it
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