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| 00:00:53 | Araq | https://jaxenter.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Java-Developer-Productivity-Report.png |
| 00:01:40 | Araq | ^ "I don't want to think about memory management" theory vs practice :P |
| 00:03:18 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Araq: How do you know that "long response time" is due to memory? |
| 00:03:51 | Araq | I mean the 2nd answer, "memory leaks" |
| 00:21:19 | dadada | illwill/illwillwidgets look cool |
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| 00:26:02 | leorize | @treeform: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2cgD |
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| 01:02:16 | FromDiscord_ | <treeform> leorize, thanks, I did not know you could use template like that, like a varible. |
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| 01:03:11 | FromDiscord_ | <treeform> I guess I was just using that other thing you hinted at before: https://gist.github.com/treeform/e84db5f8caf9208d253f347e61fba556#file-radix-nim-L95 |
| 01:03:24 | FromDiscord_ | <treeform> I don't think I can use template var as a parameter. |
| 01:04:23 | leorize | yes you can? |
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| 01:05:45 | FromDiscord_ | <treeform> I think casting it to a ptr of seq works, it does not appear to make a copy |
| 01:06:04 | leorize | yes, since you are not trying to use the copy operator `=` |
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| 01:06:16 | FromDiscord_ | <treeform> yeah |
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| 01:06:57 | leorize | it's crucial to understand that templates are not proc, but AST substitutions :) |
| 01:07:27 | FromDiscord_ | <treeform> I though one could use them only to substitute a proc |
| 01:07:32 | FromDiscord_ | <treeform> this is neat |
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| 01:30:44 | FromGitter | <Obround> Hello. If you compile a nim file with `gc:none`, will the output run faster? |
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| 01:38:19 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> Technically yes but it's not recommended |
| 01:38:39 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> You can't exactly use strings and ref objects without modifying the code |
| 01:42:44 | FromGitter | <Obround> What do you mean? |
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| 01:45:18 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> If you use anything that relies on the GC you'll have fun when you disable it |
| 01:48:15 | FromGitter | <Obround> Ok... Forgive my ignorance, but what relies on the GC? |
| 01:50:56 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> ref objects, strings like rika said i know slightly more about the C# GC but still rather nothing overall |
| 01:58:23 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> ref objects, strings like rika said, i know slightly more about the C# GC but still rather nothing overall |
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| 02:12:59 | FromGitter | <Varriount> References, strings, and sequences |
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| 02:13:37 | FromGitter | <Varriount> @Obround Are you having performance problems at compile time, or runtime? |
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| 02:59:11 | dadada | macros/templates don't seem to be working inside type definitions |
| 02:59:33 | dadada | wanted to create a macro that modifies/automates enum definitions |
| 02:59:38 | dadada | but there seems to be no chance |
| 03:05:08 | dadada | have an ambigous proc, can a proc be marked to be forcibly chosen when there's an ambiguity? |
| 03:06:15 | disruptek | if you could then it wouldn't be ambiguous. |
| 03:07:12 | dadada | yes, "when there's an ambiguity otherwise" |
| 03:09:52 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> Basically proc overriding? |
| 03:11:02 | dadada | yes |
| 03:11:36 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> I'd like to see that too |
| 03:12:26 | dadada | is there a way to import a proc by another name? |
| 03:13:06 | dadada | only thing I could do now would be to fork the code |
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| 03:22:57 | FromDiscord_ | <demotomohiro> If you import 2 modules that have same name procs, add module name to proc like `mymodule.myproc`. |
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| 03:32:15 | FromGitter | <Varriount> dadada: Source? |
| 03:32:32 | FromGitter | <Varriount> dadada: What are you trying to do? |
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| 04:37:30 | FromGitter | <Obround> @Varriount -- In a way yes. I need nim to run as fast as it can... |
| 04:37:56 | FromGitter | <Varriount> @Obround Ok, but is it running fast enough already? |
| 04:38:17 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Steps to optimize (stop when it's fast enough): |
| 04:38:28 | FromGitter | <Varriount> 1) Use `-d:release` |
| 04:38:29 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> but i want extra ns! |
| 04:38:44 | FromGitter | <Varriount> 1) Use `-d:danger` |
| 04:39:06 | disruptek | try --gc:markAndSweep, too. |
| 04:40:20 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> I mean doesnt the GC only matter if they're actively using it? |
| 04:40:36 | disruptek | sure, but it's hard not to use it. |
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| 04:42:29 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Or, if you have a short-running command line program, you can sometimes get away with not using a garbage collector at all, and just leak memory |
| 04:42:46 | FromGitter | <Varriount> (Like, if the only time you would deallocate memory is at the end of the program) |
| 04:43:10 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> I'd imagine micro controllers wouldnt use the GC much |
| 04:43:18 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> but i've been known to be wrong often 😄 |
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| 05:11:06 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> Did you recommend them to try gc arc? |
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| 07:09:31 | xcdvfghythrge | Hi. What is the best efficient and portable way you know to make a program remove himself ? |
| 07:10:31 | Zevv | remove from what? |
| 07:11:01 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> a self deleting application is called a weirdplication |
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| 07:16:58 | leorize | removeFile(getAppFilename()) |
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| 07:35:51 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> Why tho |
| 07:41:18 | leorize | it's useful for making malware :P |
| 07:41:23 | FromDiscord_ | <demotomohiro> Is there any OS that forbid removing the executable while it is running? |
| 07:42:10 | leorize | windows |
| 07:42:39 | leorize | you can, however, move it |
| 07:42:44 | leorize | but you can't remove it |
| 07:45:37 | FromDiscord_ | <demotomohiro> @leorize, then, removing a program portable way seem hard. |
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| 07:46:37 | FromDiscord_ | <demotomohiro> Create another process that remove the program after exit? |
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| 07:50:08 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> the want of a executable that removes itself is very odd |
| 07:51:53 | livcd | you can do this |
| 07:52:07 | livcd | i was trying to replicate this in Go some time ago |
| 07:53:00 | livcd | http://www.catch22.net/tuts/win32/self-deleting-executables# |
| 07:55:05 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> couldnt you just pass a few commands to the console like timeout then delete file |
| 07:55:32 | lqdev[m] | ^ both can be found in os |
| 07:55:40 | livcd | you get an error as far as i remember |
| 07:55:49 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> why? |
| 07:56:01 | livcd | well try it and you tell me :-) |
| 07:56:04 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> You send the wait x seconds and delete then close the application |
| 07:56:13 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Well considering im not on windows, no 😄 |
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| 08:52:41 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> A couple of days ago I thought I had found a bug in Nim when in fact it was just me being a noob |
| 08:52:51 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> So I am not going to claim this is a bug I found today, but could someone more knowledgeable please explain what is going on here? Sure seems strange: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2chO |
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| 09:14:44 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Stuffe: it breaks aliasing rules |
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| 09:18:14 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Stuffe: https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual_experimental.html#aliasing-restrictions-in-parameter-passing |
| 09:20:50 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> how exactly does it break the aliasing rules? |
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| 09:23:21 | Zevv | good question - I don't see it either |
| 09:24:40 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Stuffe: specifically rule 3 |
| 09:24:51 | Zevv | when changing to `let v = returns_123(); table[0].id = v` it works as expected |
| 09:26:12 | Zevv | Varriount: there is no output parameter involved here? |
| 09:27:45 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> Yeah, the output is constant, shouldn't be influenced by the global variable |
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| 09:29:06 | Zevv | This surely feels like a bug |
| 09:31:03 | Zevv | the number 86 is also special here |
| 09:31:10 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> yeah |
| 09:31:28 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> but if you declare the table with size 256, the bug goes away |
| 09:32:07 | Zevv | my guess is that the insertion inside `returns_123` causes a reallocation of the underlying table data, while the outer assignment to element 0 has already been "started" when evaluating the RHS |
| 09:32:19 | Zevv | if you preallocate it goes away, indeed |
| 09:33:04 | Zevv | it also happens with 43 |
| 09:33:30 | Zevv | shall I file a bug for you? |
| 09:33:39 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> yeah sure |
| 09:36:52 | sealmove | does anyone has an example of a recursive descent parser in Nim? |
| 09:37:23 | Zevv | look in rod |
| 09:38:25 | Zevv | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/13454 |
| 09:38:26 | disbot | ➥ UB when modifying/adding data to a table |
| 09:39:49 | narimiran | Zevv, @Stuffe i haven't followed discussion, is there a TL;DR why/how is it different than https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/13430 ? |
| 09:39:51 | disbot | ➥ Strange Table memory error ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2chW |
| 09:40:33 | Zevv | it smells similar indeed |
| 09:41:14 | Zevv | sorry for missing that but I have not been folling issues the last week or so |
| 09:41:21 | Zevv | life happened |
| 09:43:19 | lqdev[m] | sealmove: https://github.com/liquid600pgm/rod/blob/master/src/rod/private/parser.nim |
| 09:43:32 | lqdev[m] | it's not the cleanest code ever, but it does its job |
| 09:44:24 | Zevv | its pretty cool, I was able to follow it on the first read |
| 09:44:28 | lqdev[m] | I just noticed the header still says 2019, lol |
| 09:44:46 | Zevv | but of course the NPeg version is much more consice :) |
| 09:44:56 | lqdev[m] | indeed |
| 09:45:04 | sealmove | thanks ;D |
| 09:45:09 | Zevv | will you look at this beauty :) https://github.com/zevv/npeg/blob/master/misc/rod.nim |
| 09:45:23 | Zevv | I should update it with your latest parser, this is ooold |
| 09:46:44 | lqdev[m] | also, yours does not cover everything; rod is line break sensitive and I couldn't find any line break rules in your version |
| 09:47:20 | Zevv | oh it's probably far from complete. It just happened to be a very cool test case for me |
| 09:47:43 | sealmove | well, I got my hands on this https://github.com/cierelabs/yaml_spirit/blob/master/doc/specs/yaml-LL1.txt |
| 09:47:54 | lqdev[m] | sure, I'm not complaining :) |
| 09:48:07 | sealmove | I think it's easier to do it the classic way than npeg |
| 09:48:43 | Zevv | I think so too |
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| 10:23:04 | Zevv | so, if that bug is related to 13430 I still think it is a nasty one, you can't require a user to know about Tables implementation and side effects, right? |
| 10:24:15 | Araq | we can implement the capturing to a table differently, maybe |
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| 10:31:02 | Araq | maybe a borrow checker isn't a bad idea :P |
| 10:32:29 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> Was it ever |
| 10:37:01 | WilhelmVonWeiner | if I have a proc that sets up a socket |
| 10:37:15 | WilhelmVonWeiner | and I want to socket.close() on ctrl+c |
| 10:37:21 | WilhelmVonWeiner | how would one do that? |
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| 10:44:33 | Zevv | you can't really close() from a signal handler, so you typically would make a note when you receive a signal and handle the close from your main code |
| 10:44:53 | WilhelmVonWeiner | Reasonable |
| 10:45:15 | Zevv | I am a very reasonable man, usually |
| 10:45:28 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> There's a proc that you can use to set a hooc for Ctrl c |
| 10:45:30 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> Hook |
| 10:46:01 | Zevv | Well, if you don't catch SIGTERM, ^C will terminate your program and the socket will close anyway |
| 10:46:22 | WilhelmVonWeiner | Rika: The function for that hook has to be declared at the top level of a source file |
| 10:46:49 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> You need to dynamically set it? |
| 10:46:55 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> Don't think it's possible then |
| 10:46:58 | WilhelmVonWeiner | Zevv: ^C (smart) will leave your socket hanging |
| 10:47:04 | WilhelmVonWeiner | until the kernel cleans it up |
| 10:47:28 | Zevv | use setsockopt(REUSEADDR) |
| 10:47:52 | WilhelmVonWeiner | I like that |
| 10:47:54 | Zevv | you don't get TIME_WAIT states then |
| 10:48:24 | WilhelmVonWeiner | that is pretty much what I was looking for |
| 10:48:28 | WilhelmVonWeiner | thanks |
| 10:48:42 | Zevv | yw |
| 10:48:53 | Araq | which camera do you recommend for recording youtube videos? |
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| 10:52:23 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> Any camera not older than a few years should do really |
| 10:55:07 | Zevv | unless you want to record in the dark, under water or in areas with high radiaton I guess anything that can do 720p @ 30fps should be ok |
| 10:56:33 | Araq | hmm under water |
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| 11:02:05 | Zevv | and assuming you are going to talk, please consider using a proper microphone and not the cameras built in |
| 11:02:21 | Zevv | that makes the difference between a good and a bad video in a lot of cases |
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| 11:10:39 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> @narimiran TLDR, both issues are about reallocation of global scope tables. But the second issue does not seem to be about aliasing and I guess therefore not covered by the "aliasing restrictions" |
| 11:10:54 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> but yeah, im kind of out of my depth here |
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| 11:15:50 | federico3 | Araq: http://gallium.inria.fr/blog/incremental-cycle-detection/ |
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| 11:38:43 | Zevv | Stuffy: that was my guess as well, this can not be blamed at the user with a "your program is bad and you should feel bad" |
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| 11:53:25 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Thats a very weird bug |
| 11:53:58 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> I don't see how its an aliasing violation even |
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| 11:55:23 | Zevv | no it's not |
| 11:56:06 | Zevv | stuff happens in the table element assignment before the right hand side gets evaluated |
| 11:56:13 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> yeah |
| 11:56:16 | Zevv | but the RHS modifies the table and boom |
| 11:56:16 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> thats weird |
| 11:58:13 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> weird |
| 11:58:19 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> it even happens with gc:arc |
| 12:02:49 | Araq | federico3, I've read it and it doesn't apply |
| 12:02:50 | Zevv | yeah |
| 12:03:55 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Araq: Any idea why this table bug is happening? |
| 12:10:42 | Araq | it's the strict left-to-right evaluation |
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| 12:11:32 | Araq | T7_ = X5BX5D___O79c8Iqf2AZWec1459bEWw8w(table__9a3nIawjo0hjT3Hb2gPQn0A, ((NI) 0)); |
| 12:11:34 | Araq | (*T7_).id = returns123__vlPhGVpRevCYJR1PArTT5A(); |
| 12:12:13 | Araq | we compute the pointer too early |
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| 12:14:54 | Araq | and evaluation is from left to right for calls. |
| 12:15:17 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> we must special case `=` imo |
| 12:15:32 | Araq | the root cause is 'a = b' is a bad legacy, write it as 'b -> a' # store b into a |
| 12:15:44 | Araq | and the problem disappears. it's magic |
| 12:17:26 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Even left-to-right would work, but we would have to go through another pointer indirection |
| 12:17:36 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> IMO right to left for assignments is reasonable |
| 12:17:56 | Araq | not only reasonable, it makes much more sense than left-to-right |
| 12:18:00 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Its not like custom `=` operators have any way on relying on the evaluation order |
| 12:18:03 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Araq: Yeah |
| 12:18:23 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> It through me a bit off when I first discovered its LTR in assignments |
| 12:18:51 | Araq | well it now would be a spec change :P |
| 12:19:03 | Araq | but what's your solution for custom '='? |
| 12:19:08 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> bet people are gonna riot from it too |
| 12:19:22 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> "wtf?! why does nim use this for assignment instead of the norm?!?" |
| 12:19:24 | Araq | custom '=' also has right-to-left evaluation? |
| 12:19:31 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> yeah |
| 12:19:43 | Araq | hmm sounds tough to implement/ensure |
| 12:20:14 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> This begs the qeustion though |
| 12:20:30 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> a.add b would have to be RTL too in some cases |
| 12:20:54 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> if b would access a |
| 12:22:11 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Maybe pointer indirection is the way to go |
| 12:22:17 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> And when we prove its not needed |
| 12:22:19 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> we leave it out |
| 12:22:41 | Araq | sounds terrible |
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| 12:23:06 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> you have an better idea? |
| 12:23:12 | Araq | we know that 'var T' is only 90% safe |
| 12:23:26 | Araq | with borrowing rules we can make it 100% safe |
| 12:23:37 | Araq | and we have an RFC for that |
| 12:23:48 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> which would forbid this case, right? |
| 12:23:55 | Araq | yeah |
| 12:24:08 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> All I am proposing is, that instead of outright forbidding it, we store the LHS in a pointer |
| 12:25:25 | Araq | look, a double indirection doesn't even solve it, you store addr(someSeq[i]) somewhere and then someSeq reallocates, classic bug |
| 12:25:50 | Araq | what are you gonna do? make the entries in the 'seq' a 'ref'? |
| 12:25:53 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> add another one :p |
| 12:26:06 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> no wait |
| 12:26:34 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> hmmm |
| 12:26:58 | Araq | and also, if you make it "memory safe" by not destroying the old seq buffer, the assignment targets the wrong data |
| 12:27:24 | Araq | so the assignment has no effect, but it's "memory safe". bad solution |
| 12:27:41 | Araq | it's pretty much Go's solution afaik btw |
| 12:27:52 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> yeah, I didn't think about that addr(someSeq[i]) case |
| 12:28:10 | Araq | well that's what happens |
| 12:29:21 | Araq | it can be solved by "address stability" |
| 12:29:45 | Araq | instead of a seq, use a "colony" |
| 12:30:02 | Araq | but then s[i] isn't as easy to compute |
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| 12:31:00 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Oh, can you explain how that works? I can't find any info on it |
| 12:31:46 | Araq | https://plflib.org/colony.htm |
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| 12:34:48 | dadada_ | Araq: please keep lhs = rhs ... it would really throw me off (confuse me) if this basic syntax I know from nearly all languages that I've used, wouldn't work in nim ... and I think you'll make it harder for newbies to get familiar with the language quickly |
| 12:34:49 | Araq | but I'm disliking closures more and more, they hide too much |
| 12:35:42 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> i really doubt they'd change it to x -> x |
| 12:36:18 | dadada_ | it's not that people (including me) can't adjust, but I think there're good reasons why this syntax is common in so many languages, it's a natural notation you grow up with in math class |
| 12:36:22 | Araq | don't worry, we have better things to do |
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| 12:37:09 | Araq | is it though? Math has no assignments, f(x) = x + 2 is the same as x + 2 = f(x) |
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| 12:38:03 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> imagine if programming languages could assign from either side... |
| 12:38:27 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> this is just like the yoda conditionals some people do |
| 12:38:30 | dadada | Araq: yes, but it's close enough ... first of all I wasn't thinking of math functions but rather something like x = y + 2 |
| 12:38:44 | Araq | well in C you can write i[a] instead of a[i], Rika. |
| 12:39:21 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> wh art |
| 12:39:23 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> what* |
| 12:39:53 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> dadada but y + 2 = x is equivalent |
| 12:40:21 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> any equation can be flipped at its eq sign |
| 12:40:21 | dadada | Rika: I don't know why people in here ALWAYS want to point out the obvious to me |
| 12:40:33 | Araq | dadada, x = x + 1 is also a classic example of how un-math-y it really is |
| 12:40:54 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> @Rika Because in c its just a pointer addition |
| 12:40:57 | Araq | x = x + 1 is an unsolvable equation |
| 12:41:00 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> multiplied by the size of the type |
| 12:41:11 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> oh arrays okay i see |
| 12:41:17 | dadada | Rika: CAN is differerent from the convention, the convention is that you put the value you want to calculate (ie. x) on the left side, and the stuff that you use to calculate is conventionally put on the right side |
| 12:41:31 | dadada | Rika: I don't know why people on IRC love to split hairs |
| 12:41:39 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Araq: uint1 |
| 12:41:51 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> who doesn't love cyclic groups |
| 12:41:56 | Araq | dadada, well anyway, '=' is an update, not an equation |
| 12:42:14 | lqdev[m] | equations are ==, tho |
| 12:42:22 | Araq | and Pascal used ':=' for the update operation |
| 12:42:22 | lqdev[m] | why would you change that |
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| 12:42:33 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> no we're discussing something else |
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| 12:43:02 | Araq | and Pascal got the order wrong too, it should have been '3 + i =: i' |
| 12:43:15 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> then again, if you do that |
| 12:43:17 | Araq | you store the result of 3 + i inside the i. |
| 12:43:27 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> and want to make a.add b() logical |
| 12:43:41 | Araq | in fact, I remember being confused about it when I learned it |
| 12:43:45 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> you will never get LTR |
| 12:43:49 | Araq | because the order is wrong ;-) |
| 12:43:53 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> unless a.add b() is a template |
| 12:44:02 | dadada | Araq: I never said it was an equation! I just pointed out that there's a familiar structure, and sometimes x = 2 * 10 is an equation, that happens to work through updating/storing a value ... just not always ... also it depends on what you define as an equation |
| 12:44:12 | dadada | never said it was a classical math equation |
| 12:44:17 | Araq | alright ok |
| 12:44:24 | Araq | but the point remains |
| 12:44:31 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> that expands to `inc a.len; b() -> a[a.len-1]` |
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| 12:46:15 | dadada | Araq: my main thing is, I want nim to become massively popular ... it shouldn't be too inconvenient to switch from JS/Java/Python/C++ to Nim and vice versa ... also I think we can use "->" for something better |
| 12:46:41 | Araq | dadada, relax please :-) I'm not gonna introduce -> |
| 12:46:43 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> dadada: Don't worry mate. We wouldn't break literally all code that exists :p |
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| 12:47:05 | Araq | but it's very helpful to talk about it |
| 12:47:15 | Araq | to see where it leads us |
| 12:47:23 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Yeah |
| 12:47:56 | Araq | clyybber: x.add x[^1] is also really bad indeed, had a couple of bugs with it |
| 12:48:01 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Araq: Hmm, maybe sink parameters should be evaluated before non-sink ones? |
| 12:48:01 | dadada | you never know, Araq is a very opinionated guy, which is a great trait in many cases... but breaking code/habits should generally be avoided |
| 12:48:38 | Araq | nah. Others have opinions, I have facts. |
| 12:48:42 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Araq: At least when we automatically determine that something is a sink param |
| 12:49:04 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Because sink params are then going to be stored somewhere |
| 12:49:25 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> It would solve the `add` case |
| 12:49:31 | Araq | what you say makes sense but I'd rather have the compiler complain instead of re-order |
| 12:49:34 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> But `=` still has to be special cased |
| 12:50:09 | Zevv | "Others have opinions, I have facts". I will save that one, I can probably use it every now and then |
| 12:50:30 | Araq | reordering is fine if the results is easy-to-follow and unique |
| 12:50:37 | Araq | but I doubt it would be |
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| 12:51:59 | Araq | so ... how do we know that returns_123 writes to 'table' ? |
| 12:52:10 | Araq | it could be a function pointer |
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| 12:52:31 | Araq | and it's .noSideEffect because table is not global |
| 12:52:45 | Araq | thankfully we do know that it's a freaking .closure |
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| 12:53:55 | dadada | Araq: sorry, opinionated was the wrong word, not a native speaker here ... "independently thinking" would probably better fit what I wanted to express there |
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| 12:54:28 | Araq | dadada, "opinionated" was spot-on too |
| 12:55:16 | dadada | Araq: according to dict.cc it means starrsinnig or dogmenbehaftet in German, and I definitely didn't mean that! |
| 12:55:45 | Araq | Zevv, speaking of which, my ARC improvements broke npeg |
| 12:56:05 | Araq | there is still a serious bug left though that could have caused it |
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| 12:58:43 | Araq | replied with a workaround, if we get borrowing rules, the compiler will complain and make you write my workaround |
| 12:59:09 | Araq | which is a good solution and doesn't need us butcher our evaluation order rules |
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| 13:07:04 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Araq: Can you change the evaluation order with named params? |
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| 13:16:11 | Zevv | Araq: something I can do to fix that, or should I just wait until it is fixed on the Nim side? |
| 13:18:35 | Zevv | hmm I don't see it, araq-arc-optimizations works just fine with npeg? |
| 13:18:57 | Zevv | oh right no indeed |
| 13:19:12 | Zevv | sigsegv even |
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| 13:57:09 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Araq: I saw this earlier this week on Hacker News, and thought you might be interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22372937 |
| 13:57:49 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> lol |
| 13:57:58 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> its the third time this was sent to Araq now |
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| 14:01:25 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Darn, I'm late to the game |
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| 14:54:25 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> Araq: I know this is probably a dumb noob question, but why is it so hard to have certain functions evaluate right to left? It could even be a pragma maybe? |
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| 15:46:12 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Hm, in C++ it says that (just) for the assignment operator, expressions are grouped right to left |
| 15:47:09 | FromGitter | <Varriount> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33598938/order-of-evaluation-of-assignment-statement-in-c |
| 15:47:18 | FromGitter | <Varriount> (ctrl+f, "update 2") |
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| 15:49:29 | disruptek | hey zevv is back |
| 15:49:31 | disruptek | you okay, buddy? |
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| 15:55:49 | Araq | Stuffe: it's not that hard but the spec decided on "left to right everywhere" |
| 15:56:20 | FromGitter | <rishavs> quick stupid question; ⏎ ⏎ ```type ⏎ myObj = ref object of RootObj``` ⏎ ⏎ and [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5e4ffda4c2c73b70a44d4687] |
| 16:00:40 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> one is a ref |
| 16:00:42 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> the other isnt |
| 16:00:49 | Araq | they do very different things and you should read a tutorial |
| 16:01:22 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> if you do a copy of a ref it doesnt copy the data, only the reference; the other will copy the data |
| 16:02:06 | FromGitter | <rishavs> Thanks. That makes sense |
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| 16:21:04 | Araq | Zevv, is it easy to extract a smaller example program that fails? |
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| 16:48:10 | FromGitter | <danielecook> Anyone know how to compile with a header? Not even sure if I'm speaking the right language here |
| 16:48:36 | FromGitter | <danielecook> But I want to add something like this: ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5e5009e4ff00c664eed941de] |
| 16:49:13 | FromGitter | <danielecook> to prevent a compile error from occurring |
| 16:52:42 | leorize | you can emit that in, but why? |
| 16:53:36 | FromGitter | <danielecook> those symbols are missing on mac os |
| 16:53:55 | FromGitter | <danielecook> so not sure if I'm along the right lines here... but `-d: "fopen=fopen" in `nim.cfg`? |
| 16:54:44 | Araq | those symbols are non-standard, import them or don't but don't mess around with the existing Nim library |
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| 17:03:59 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> Araq: I don't think it is even theoretically possible to swap the order of two turing complete statements that can reference each other and guarantee the same resulting state |
| 17:04:39 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> kind of seems like it has to be evaluated in the correct order, or it will forever be buggy |
| 17:04:44 | Araq | huh? |
| 17:05:55 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> I mean the right hand side has to be evaluated first if it can run something turing complete and can reference the left hand side |
| 17:06:32 | leorize | danielecook: you can modify whatever wrapper you're using to use the right symbols on macos |
| 17:06:33 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> i mean i obviously have no clue how all this is implemented |
| 17:06:40 | leorize | instead of that define mess |
| 17:07:13 | FromGitter | <danielecook> leorize thanks - but I have no idea what I am doing! |
| 17:07:19 | FromGitter | <danielecook> I should prob. go learn C at this point |
| 17:07:29 | FromGitter | <danielecook> but basically I am getting this error when building something |
| 17:07:56 | FromGitter | <danielecook> ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5e500e6c4880f07ed1ed8ef3] |
| 17:08:43 | FromGitter | <danielecook> I think it's b/c of this library: https://github.com/richgel999/miniz |
| 17:09:10 | leorize | it probably doesn't support macos |
| 17:09:18 | FromGitter | <danielecook> So how would I modify nim.cfg or the nimble file to add (rename?) these symbols |
| 17:09:21 | leorize | or the nim wrapper of it that you use doesn't |
| 17:09:54 | FromGitter | <danielecook> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4003479/how-to-enable-large-file-support-under-darwin |
| 17:10:08 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> What I meant was it is not possible to ensure that calling fun_a() then fun_b() will have the same result as calling fun_b() then fun_a(). Given a turing complete langauge |
| 17:11:18 | FromGitter | <danielecook> Also related I believe https://github.com/richgel999/miniz/issues/26 |
| 17:11:20 | disbot | ➥ Undefined symbols for 64-bit variants of stdio functions on Mac OS X ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2cjO |
| 17:11:32 | leorize | yea this is why you never copy paste code from stackoverflow :P |
| 17:11:46 | Araq | as a rule of thumb, when you say "Turing complete" you got it wrong |
| 17:12:11 | Araq | it's true this time too, so enforce some static restrictions |
| 17:12:21 | Araq | in order to prove what you need to |
| 17:13:04 | leorize | danielecook: the library doesn't support osx |
| 17:13:17 | leorize | you shouldn't use it |
| 17:13:19 | FromGitter | <danielecook> ok got it |
| 17:13:23 | FromGitter | <danielecook> I'll move on |
| 17:13:36 | FromGitter | <danielecook> Thanks for looking into it |
| 17:22:54 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> But Araq the left hand side is ristricted sure, I don't know what goes on under the hood. But the right hand side can be the result of a function call, so it surely is turing complete. And since the right hand side can change the state that the left hand side needs to know, you end up in an impossible situation. I know I am just restating the problem that you already know. But I guess my point is following causal order of evaluation is real |
| 17:24:17 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> you mean causal as in evaluate right HS before the LHS? |
| 17:24:25 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> yes |
| 17:24:30 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> I agree |
| 17:24:41 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> but we have toe extend it to add too I *think* |
| 17:24:49 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> like `a.add b()` |
| 17:25:09 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> A big shoutout to @Vindaar 's awesome ggplotnim package. It draws amazing plots. |
| 17:25:15 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> !repo ggplotnim |
| 17:25:16 | disbot | https://github.com/Vindaar/ggplotnim -- 9ggplotnim: 11A port of ggplot2 for Nim 15 31⭐ 2🍴 |
| 17:25:17 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> agreed |
| 17:26:19 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> I'm not RTL evaluation is needed for add too though |
| 17:26:26 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> *not sure |
| 17:26:40 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> It helped me create a potpie of SystemVerilog/C interface, MATLAB->C exported FFT calc libs, my Nim code and ggplotnim and create awesome FFT plots 🎉 |
| 17:27:46 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> clyybber: I guess it depends on how well the left hand side is restricted |
| 17:29:37 | FromDiscord_ | <Stuffe> But you can prove that you can't know for any arbitrary function if it will cause a global table to reallocate |
| 17:32:03 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> I think the best way to solve this is to evaluate sink arguments first |
| 17:32:07 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> before all other args |
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| 17:32:46 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Or make it error |
| 17:33:07 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Araq: Do you have these rules written down somewhere? |
| 17:33:23 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Those who would detect this case |
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| 18:17:39 | disruptek | ima stream as i muddle through this testing project. |
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| 18:32:20 | FromGitter | <Vindaar> @kaushalmodi thanks for the kind words! Glad you enjoy it :) |
| 18:32:38 | disruptek | please propose a name for a new unittest module. |
| 18:36:00 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> testunit |
| 18:36:03 | FromDiscord_ | <Rika> 🙂 |
| 18:36:45 | disruptek | hah. |
| 18:38:37 | disruptek | !search testing framework reusable |
| 18:38:38 | disbot | https://github.com/status-im/nim-chronicles/issues/71 -- 3Extract the testing framework used in nim-chronicles into a more reusable library 7& 1 more... |
| 18:40:35 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> disruptek: watchmen |
| 18:41:27 | disruptek | it's kind a bad sign that `nimble test` doesn't actually work with this testing framework. |
| 18:42:07 | disruptek | Finished run: 47/53 tests successful |
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| 18:46:49 | disruptek | watchmen? |
| 18:47:01 | disruptek | beholder |
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| 19:02:33 | FromDiscord_ | <Yepoleb> hi, could someone please make this example work for me? https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2cke |
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| 19:03:10 | FromDiscord_ | <Yepoleb> i can't figure out how to pass the * to the macro |
| 19:04:10 | disruptek | there's a newExportedIdent proc iirc, or you can use postfix(). |
| 19:07:01 | Araq | clyybber: no, but Rust figured it out for us |
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| 19:12:40 | FromDiscord_ | <Yepoleb> So there's no simple way to use the * already part of the argument? |
| 19:13:34 | leorize | yea, unless the parser is updated to handle that |
| 19:18:29 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Araq: But rust is also very ristrictive |
| 19:18:40 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> restrictive |
| 19:19:24 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> disruptek: Where are you streaming? |
| 19:22:29 | Zevv | disruptek: all is fine here. I was never gone, just lots of stuff going on |
| 19:22:41 | disruptek | 👍 |
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| 19:42:39 | disruptek | clyybber: the dog demands a trip to the park, but then i'll try twitch again. |
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| 19:50:03 | rayman22201 | @Zevv, I had a thought about Arduino support. Nim has good VSCode support, and Arduino IDE has a "beta" CLI interface that has good VSCode support. It stands to reason, that you could set up a good experience for Arduino with Nim using VSCode: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/efficient-arduino-programming-with-arduino-cli-and-visual-studio-code/all |
| 19:50:57 | rayman22201 | might be easier than fighting embedded C language zealots :-P |
| 19:52:06 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> disruptek: Cool |
| 19:55:45 | Zevv | rayman22201: sounds like a better solution than the hack I'm using now, but I guess the arduino CLI support uses the same tools under the hood as the arduino IDE, so I guess it makes sense to just whip up a dedicated Nim/arduino build tool and plug that in vscode instead |
| 19:56:15 | rayman22201 | exactly. I agree |
| 19:56:59 | rayman22201 | still a hack, but a slightly better hack |
| 19:57:55 | Zevv | but then again, it probably makes sense to just use normal make files and only add some glue to make use of arduino libs |
| 19:58:08 | Zevv | because those libs is the only reason to do arduino stuff anyway |
| 20:01:11 | rayman22201 | true. I don't disagree. The whole point of arduino is the nice noob friendly libs. My point is that it is probably better to focus on making VSCode work well, instead of trying to fight with the Arduino IDE. |
| 20:01:32 | Zevv | "pick your fights" |
| 20:01:36 | rayman22201 | yup |
| 20:01:50 | Zevv | I actually kind of abandoned that effort |
| 20:02:20 | rayman22201 | I saw the thread on the Arduino forum. That's what gave me this idea. |
| 20:02:25 | Zevv | no reply from the arduino IDE author mailing list, and on the Arduino forum there was an old hog whining and nitpicking about how bad Nim must be |
| 20:02:27 | rayman22201 | It was a good effort :-P |
| 20:02:52 | rayman22201 | I was very sad when I saw it, but not too surprised. |
| 20:03:04 | Zevv | I never promised him a rose garden |
| 20:03:34 | Zevv | so I didn't even bother about telling him about metaprogramming, CTFE and all the other nasty stuff we do |
| 20:03:36 | rayman22201 | He literally ignored you, and continued to rant |
| 20:03:48 | Zevv | I was proud of myself |
| 20:03:54 | Zevv | sitting on my hands and biting my tongue instead |
| 20:04:05 | rayman22201 | lol, yes |
| 20:04:26 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> I'd personally rather shit on my hands and clap, then post on any forum for a language/hardware |
| 20:04:45 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> People are too connected to their tools to care |
| 20:05:35 | nullwarp | thats... descriptive - but i completely agree |
| 20:06:25 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> lol |
| 20:06:32 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> All in good fun |
| 20:07:31 | Zevv | :) |
| 20:08:01 | rayman22201 | anyway. I think a VSCode based "Nimduino" is a cool idea, and good marketing for Nim. Another project to add to my "eventually I hope to have time to get around to it" pile. Or hope someone like Zevv gets there first :-P |
| 20:09:07 | Zevv | Naah, my attention span has passed I'm afraid |
| 20:09:14 | Zevv | "it works", meh |
| 20:09:36 | lqdev[m] | meanwhile me, not giving a single crap about the "ez" arduino stuff and implementing LCD display drivers myself… |
| 20:09:46 | lqdev[m] | and frying LCD displays since 2019 |
| 20:09:51 | Zevv | I always did it myself |
| 20:10:02 | rayman22201 | lol. You are the best of us |
| 20:10:09 | Zevv | I can't be seen with arduinos or raspberries at day time |
| 20:10:29 | lqdev[m] | I don't like when a library abstracts away the low level details and keeps control away from me :) |
| 20:10:31 | rayman22201 | the "real grown up embedded devs" |
| 20:10:48 | Zevv | to be honest, the low level stuff is the most fun part of doing embedded |
| 20:10:57 | Zevv | as soon as the controlling works, the rest is again "just software" |
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| 20:11:06 | lqdev[m] | I agree with Zevv |
| 20:11:16 | lqdev[m] | low level is the fun part |
| 20:11:31 | lqdev[m] | figuring out all the timings, switching each pin on or off |
| 20:11:37 | lqdev[m] | this is the real stuff |
| 20:11:59 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> My favourite part about arduino is buying one and putting it in my closet for 5 years |
| 20:12:00 | Zevv | heat should be dissipated by mechanical means |
| 20:12:01 | lqdev[m] | I don't do much embedded programming, though |
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| 20:13:14 | lqdev[m] | especially since I fried my ATmega328p and can't be bothered to buy another one. |
| 20:13:25 | rayman22201 | "heat should be dissipated by mechanical means" quote of the day lmao |
| 20:13:47 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> I fried one of my ardiunos accidently sending a 24v drill battery straight through iit |
| 20:13:54 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> polarity is a hell of a drug |
| 20:15:02 | lqdev[m] | ah yes, inverse polarity is how I fried my chip :) |
| 20:15:26 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> ah we're brothers now |
| 20:15:26 | lqdev[m] | I probably shouldn't be smiling but whatever |
| 20:15:51 | Zevv | After 25 years I tend to get more careful with that. I don't want to know for how much money I have fried electronics in my career, but I'm sure you could buy a nice car for that |
| 20:15:53 | lqdev[m] | nice. |
| 20:16:19 | lqdev[m] | dude |
| 20:16:43 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> I tend to not fry electronic as much as mechanically break them then pooch them when i attempt to repair them |
| 20:16:45 | lqdev[m] | at least that ATmega328p isn't that expensive, y'know |
| 20:16:46 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Headsets mainly |
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| 20:17:13 | lqdev[m] | lol |
| 20:17:24 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> do have to say if you like user servicable headsets superlux hd610s are super easy to repair |
| 20:17:41 | Zevv | One of my coolest fries was a custom made chip. We did the software side bringup in simulated verilog, then one day the real first spin came in. Cardboard box the size of a fridge, filled with empty boxes expecpt for one. Recurse down three levels with empty boxes until we come to the tray of chips, 14 of them. |
| 20:18:01 | Zevv | The whole company in a circle around me. I open the tray, pick the first chip and place it in the ZIF Socket |
| 20:18:08 | Zevv | - 90 degrees rotated - |
| 20:18:11 | Zevv | and power up the rig |
| 20:18:30 | Zevv | those were the days |
| 20:18:49 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Then you loudly say "And god said let there be smoke, and there was" |
| 20:18:54 | disruptek | wow. |
| 20:18:55 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Releasing the magic smoke is a skill |
| 20:19:27 | Zevv | The best part was this colluege who loudly clapped his hands once at the exact moment I switched on the power supply |
| 20:19:39 | Zevv | we still work together these days, and we still do that to each other |
| 20:19:52 | Zevv | slowly - carefully - *CLAP* |
| 20:19:54 | lqdev[m] | a few months ago the dumbass inside me thought it'd be a great idea to keep an uncapped bottle of water right next to my amplituner, boy was I scared when I accidentally hit the bottle with my hand and the amp switched off |
| 20:20:02 | lqdev[m] | fortunately it's still working |
| 20:20:09 | Zevv | Oh switched off, lucky you :) |
| 20:20:52 | lqdev[m] | yeah, I think it spilled mainly on the heatsink inside, but also tripped a fuse or something. idk |
| 20:21:10 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> My one friend was working on gambling machines, and accidently exploded a diode which scare the shit outta everyone nearby, he also once grabbed a hot air gun in a pencil grip on the tip |
| 20:21:42 | disruptek | i always look for an opportunity to hit the horn while a minion is pouring brake fluid into the reservoir. |
| 20:21:56 | Zevv | Exploding big capacitors on purpose is also fun. Reverse polarization and double the max voltage. Count to three and *sizzleBOOMsmokesmelll* |
| 20:22:22 | lqdev[m] | yes |
| 20:23:00 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> well everytime i've released magic smoke, my reaction has always been "Well shit, what did i do wrong" |
| 20:23:02 | Zevv | disruptek: I think these guys end up totally reistant to that |
| 20:23:28 | disruptek | i dunno, it's one of those things you never expect. |
| 20:23:32 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> like one time i shorted a bluetooth speakers battery terminals trying to make it not useless, and that uhh was illadvised |
| 20:23:46 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Who measures amperage in vs out |
| 20:23:51 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> I replaced a fuse on my DS I lent to my cousin cause she charged it with a bad charger |
| 20:23:52 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> *smart people that's who* |
| 20:24:04 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Now we know you're lying |
| 20:24:05 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> and by replace I mean: I didn't have a replacement and just bridged it |
| 20:24:14 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> no one has the security drivers |
| 20:24:16 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> 😛 |
| 20:24:28 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> next time I lent it to her I gave her a good charger |
| 20:24:36 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> but she still managed to use the bad one |
| 20:24:41 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> and now my DS is roast |
| 20:24:50 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> and her floor too |
| 20:24:51 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> I wonder if fuses exist for a reason... |
| 20:24:59 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> well, I didn't see one |
| 20:25:07 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> no stupid -> no fuse |
| 20:25:15 | lqdev[m] | so when I plugged in my AVR with reverse polarity my first reaction was, "hey, why's the LED not blinking". after debugging for 5 minutes, I saw that I swapped my + and - cables, thought "oh shit", and immediately went to unplug the entire programmer |
| 20:25:19 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> fuse -> stupid? |
| 20:25:28 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> I mean it probably wasnt the charger that did it, more the ds was pooched |
| 20:25:29 | lqdev[m] | what's weird is that there was no magic smoke, the chip just died. |
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| 20:25:56 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> @Elegant Beef nah the charger was too *strong* |
| 20:26:02 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Even the proper one? |
| 20:26:05 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> no |
| 20:26:07 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> that one worked |
| 20:26:17 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> she used a usb to ds-power cable |
| 20:26:22 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> and plugged it into her phone charger |
| 20:26:24 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> bad idea |
| 20:26:40 | Zevv | but sorry for talking #nim here: how did ryu go? |
| 20:26:49 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> it works |
| 20:26:51 | lqdev[m] | uh oh |
| 20:27:04 | Zevv | sweet. Will it go into the stdlib? |
| 20:27:13 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> leorize is still working on a nim reimplementation from scratch |
| 20:27:24 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Zevv: My version probably not |
| 20:27:29 | Zevv | oh is yours not good enough? |
| 20:27:35 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> @clyybber next get interfaces implemented to araq's satisfaction 😄 |
| 20:27:38 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> its a straight up port |
| 20:27:44 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> so it uses those tables |
| 20:27:48 | Zevv | so what |
| 20:27:49 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> and is very fast |
| 20:27:57 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Araq doesn't like those tables |
| 20:28:00 | Zevv | do we want to generate these tables every run? |
| 20:28:15 | disruptek | they are constants. |
| 20:28:34 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> They can be a bit big |
| 20:28:38 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> 4kb or something |
| 20:28:49 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> I dunno if thats a good idea with embedded and stuff |
| 20:28:51 | Zevv | yeah, who cares? If you generate them at CT they are still in the binary |
| 20:29:03 | Zevv | you need them for an efficient runtime I guess |
| 20:29:17 | Zevv | and for embedded I'd rather use my good'ole printf() implementation |
| 20:29:27 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> heh |
| 20:29:28 | disruptek | it's really not a big deal to include the size-optimized ones. |
| 20:29:37 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> aight |
| 20:29:41 | disruptek | if you don't want them, don't use ryu. |
| 20:29:54 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> arent you talking about int128? |
| 20:29:58 | disruptek | space and time, the eternal tradeoff. |
| 20:29:59 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> nah |
| 20:30:01 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> its not needed |
| 20:30:25 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> disruptek it's a continuium not a trade off |
| 20:30:38 | disruptek | it's a continuum of tradeoffs. |
| 20:30:48 | Zevv | life is |
| 20:30:48 | disruptek | also there are some goats in there. |
| 20:31:24 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Zevv: Maybe its faster than printf even when we eliminate those tables |
| 20:31:43 | disruptek | it will be. |
| 20:31:52 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> sure? |
| 20:31:58 | disruptek | yes. |
| 20:32:02 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> how come? |
| 20:32:07 | Zevv | if not, there is really no use for the whole thing, right? |
| 20:32:17 | disruptek | because it's a fundamentally smarter approach. |
| 20:32:19 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Zevv: There is |
| 20:32:34 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> its prints the minimum viable string representation |
| 20:32:35 | Zevv | oh yeah it's the more precise representation |
| 20:32:39 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> that can still do the roundtrip |
| 20:33:15 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> Zevv: https://github.com/Clyybber/nimryu/ |
| 20:34:42 | Zevv | thanks |
| 20:34:57 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> *how expensive are logs?* |
| 20:35:08 | Zevv | about 20 bucks |
| 20:35:10 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> i see the decimal length and it hurts! |
| 20:35:37 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> floor(log10(val)) +1 tells you decimals! 😄 |
| 20:35:59 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> floor(log10(val)) +1 tells you digits! 😄 |
| 20:36:02 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> *digits* |
| 20:36:09 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> hey |
| 20:36:14 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> its a *faithful* port |
| 20:36:20 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> :p |
| 20:36:31 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> idk i dont like multiple if statements |
| 20:36:38 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> me neither |
| 20:36:42 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> should be a case |
| 20:36:43 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> of |
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| 20:36:44 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> thing |
| 20:36:55 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> lemme do that real quick |
| 20:36:59 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> i mean i dont like that either |
| 20:37:05 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> still too much repetition |
| 20:37:10 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> me neither but its faster than log10 |
| 20:37:13 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> yea i know |
| 20:37:21 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> but i like my sanity over performance |
| 20:37:22 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> 😛 |
| 20:37:33 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> ryu has given that up a long time ago |
| 20:37:55 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> oh wait |
| 20:38:01 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> a case thing aint working here |
| 20:38:56 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> damn there is a log approximation but it's `x^x` |
| 20:39:00 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> so inotherwords deadly |
| 20:39:01 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> you ever been *round-tripping*? |
| 20:39:17 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> i mean i walk to my fridge and back to get water |
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| 20:39:18 | FromGitter | <matrixbot> `BarrOff` Hello, is there a way to interpret variables as another type? I mean like having a float64 and interpreting it as an uint64? I don't need a conversion, where the bits of the number change. In the example above you would take the bits of the float and act on them as if they were an uint64 |
| 20:39:33 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> cast |
| 20:39:52 | FromDiscord_ | <clyybber> cast[uint64](someFloat64) |
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| 20:58:22 | FromGitter | <Varriount> The most "embedded" system I worked with was a CRIO system for FRC robotics |
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| 21:16:21 | disruptek | i think i'm round trippin' right now. |
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| 21:32:42 | leorize | it appears to me that ryu supports multiple rounding mode |
| 21:32:49 | leorize | what should we use then? |
| 21:33:04 | leorize | clyybber, disruptek: ^ |
| 21:34:30 | Cadey | Varriount: back in the day I ported LOLCODE to a cRIO for FRC |
| 21:34:39 | disruptek | whatever passes the tests, to start. |
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| 21:42:47 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> is the glitter bot OSS? |
| 21:43:36 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> would be cool to implement a [nickname] that mentions discord users from irc |
| 21:43:51 | disruptek | what? |
| 21:44:19 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> In discord if you @Elegant Beef it pings them with a notification |
| 21:44:35 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> using the [nickname] would look up if users have that nickname and if so ping them |
| 21:44:55 | disruptek | this doesn't ping @Elegant Beef ? |
| 21:44:59 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> nop |
| 21:45:05 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> nope* |
| 21:45:12 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Lacks the #5502 |
| 21:45:14 | disbot | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/5502 -- 6don't allow casting to non-concrete types; fixes #5428 |
| 21:45:27 | disruptek | or, you could just use irc. |
| 21:45:31 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> lol |
| 21:45:38 | disruptek | oh, forgot to stream. |
| 21:45:43 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> also bot over sensitive |
| 21:46:04 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> try `@Elegant Beef#5502` |
| 21:46:19 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Im curious if it'd properly interpret that |
| 21:46:24 | disruptek | i can't even render my own stream. |
| 21:46:30 | disruptek | https://www.twitch.tv/disruptek |
| 21:46:34 | disruptek | maybe it's my browser. |
| 21:46:45 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> works for me |
| 21:46:49 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> in chrome |
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| 21:47:29 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> I have no clue how you live with those notifications for that long |
| 21:47:42 | disruptek | i can dismiss them. |
| 21:47:53 | leorize | Yardanico is working on a Nim-based discord bot |
| 21:48:03 | leorize | it's already running in the offtopic channel iirc |
| 21:48:24 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> is the source open or should i just suggest the idea 😄 |
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| 22:03:41 | Zevv | We hear you - it's very comforting |
| 22:04:19 | disruptek | so why can't i see you |
| 22:04:24 | disruptek | say something int he chat. |
| 22:04:29 | disruptek | maybe the bot is busy. |
| 22:04:33 | Zevv | I have no clue - this is as new for me as it is for you |
| 22:04:57 | disruptek | does no one use this? |
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| 22:05:17 | Zevv | Also I have not been paying attention, to be honest :) I'm lost in my own problems already |
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| 22:24:52 | leorize | yay my basic float to string converter worked! |
| 22:25:02 | disruptek | neat. |
| 22:25:11 | disruptek | that's awesome progress. |
| 22:28:38 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> i'd love to believe it's just $float |
| 22:29:34 | leorize | $float gives you this: 7.174999999999999e-43 |
| 22:29:41 | leorize | my converter gives you this: 7.17E-43 |
| 22:29:51 | leorize | now I just gotta understand how this stuff even works |
| 22:30:05 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> can you specify sig digs? |
| 22:30:55 | leorize | the paper relies on the reader to be an expert in floating point :P |
| 22:31:17 | leorize | you can't atm but I think I can make it do so |
| 22:32:11 | FromDiscord_ | <treeform> nim's float32 formatting is bad. I think it cats float32 to float64 and prints it which is wrong... |
| 22:32:15 | FromDiscord_ | <treeform> casts* |
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| 22:43:11 | FromGitter | <Varriount> leorize: Ah the old "I don't know how this works, but I do know how to translate it" scenario? |
| 22:44:06 | leorize | yea :P |
| 22:44:50 | leorize | I gotta read more on the entire proof of that algo |
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| 22:47:45 | disruptek | you are clearly getting it. |
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| 22:47:53 | disruptek | you are our expert, afaic. |
| 22:49:54 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> "Our expert", way to insight screaming and running |
| 22:49:59 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Can i be the resident village idiot? |
| 22:52:12 | disruptek | that position is taken. |
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| 23:10:03 | disruptek | !repo disruptek/testutils |
| 23:10:05 | disbot | https://github.com/disruptek/testutils -- 9testutils: 11testrunner et al 15 0⭐ 0🍴 |
| 23:11:07 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> disruptek who do i have to armwrestle to get that position? |
| 23:11:25 | disruptek | 👍this guy👍 |
| 23:12:41 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> Well ill untie my moose and ill head down, where you again? |
| 23:12:45 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> where are you* |
| 23:16:52 | disruptek | i'm outside philly, but moving to vegas soon. |
| 23:17:22 | disruptek | treeform: i will sort the audio out before next stream; thanks for the help. |
| 23:18:11 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> quite far from me |
| 23:18:15 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> My moose is retied up |
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| 23:24:03 | FromDiscord_ | <Recruit_main70007> How can I access the magnification api or the header? |
| 23:24:03 | FromDiscord_ | <Recruit_main70007> |
| 23:24:03 | FromDiscord_ | <Recruit_main70007> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/windows/desktop/magapi/magapi-intro |
| 23:24:48 | disruptek | that's the url i use. |
| 23:26:56 | FromDiscord_ | <Recruit_main70007> How? |
| 23:27:42 | disruptek | i mean, when i want to read about 32-bit-only windows extensions. that's the one i go to. |
| 23:32:49 | FromDiscord_ | <Recruit_main70007> But that’s a comment aside, not an answer right? |
| 23:32:49 | FromDiscord_ | <Recruit_main70007> I’m sorry, but it’s a bit late here 😅 |
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| 23:32:54 | FromGitter | <Varriount> disruptek: Come to the east coast. Then we can meet up |
| 23:33:08 | disruptek | the east coast of where? |
| 23:33:13 | FromGitter | <Varriount> US |
| 23:33:26 | disruptek | vegas calls. |
| 23:33:32 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> disruptek doesnt tend to provide helpful insight 90% of the time, just jesting comments |
| 23:33:33 | disruptek | where are you? |
| 23:33:46 | FromGitter | <Varriount> I live in Virginia |
| 23:34:23 | FromGitter | <Varriount> I get to be next-door neighbors with Maryland and DC. Woo! |
| 23:34:54 | disruptek | could be worse. |
| 23:35:00 | FromDiscord_ | <Elegant Beef> i feel like "and DC" is negligable, it's a single city 😄 |
| 23:35:44 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Yes, but it's the nation's capital. |
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| 23:43:28 | FromGitter | <Varriount> disruptek: Well, there's a non-zero chance that I'll be flying to California sometime this year, so perhaps we can meet up then. |
| 23:43:42 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Or if you're dragged to Virginia or DC |
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