<< 21-08-2014 >>
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01:27:43Skrylarinteresting. trying to use the varargs type and echo fails hard
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03:11:15saml_i try to build Aporia. but I get home/saml/code/Aporia/aporia.nim(11, 7) Error: cannot open 'glib2'
03:14:37saml_and I tried to install babel. also fails
03:15:11saml_ /home/saml/code/babel/src/babel.nim(674, 66) Error: undeclared identifier: '{}'
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03:34:41SkrylarAraq: hypothetically, how difficult would it be to extend the 'index' function of the compiler to generate tags files?
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08:01:40NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 5432b2b Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: fixes recently introduced regression
08:01:40NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 014b796 Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge branch 'devel' of https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod into devel
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17:32:12dom96hi
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17:35:11Araqdom96: read the logs?
17:38:54dom96yes, soon new-async will be merged into master.
17:38:58dom96So OrionPK should try that.
17:38:59dom96brb
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17:50:41Varriountdom96: Any particular reason I get a recursive type error when I try to subclass TCustomOverlapped in the Asyncdispatch module?
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17:55:11OrionPKhm
17:55:17OrionPKdom96 i tried that but got a diff error
17:55:20OrionPKyesterday
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18:18:08dom96Varriount: Dunno, can I see your code?
18:18:15dom96OrionPK: i'll take a look now
18:21:49dom96ugh
18:22:08dom96Araq: gcsafe is already annoying me
18:22:42Araqwhy?
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18:23:43dom96because it's breaking everything
18:24:29dom96and it seems to somehow make proc types not closures when it's specified?
18:26:40dom96and I don't even know how to fix jester
18:30:20Araqhmm well it can't be a closure?
18:30:32Araqhow come we didn't notice it?
18:30:45Araqwe have lots of async stuff that I fixed
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18:31:30dom96I'm still not convinced.
18:31:59dom96You need to explain gcsafe better to me.
18:32:26dom96But I doubt you can convince me why it should be explicit.
18:32:36dom96Marking every single proc type as gcsafe sounds like a PITA
18:32:57dom96And i'm sure many people will find it ridiculous
18:34:28Araqok, here is the explanation:
18:36:41Araqa proc type without 'gcsafe' means "don't know, assume unsafety" *but also* "infer it"
18:37:02Araqthe same is true for tags etc.
18:37:06Araqthis means that:
18:37:22Araqmap(somethingGcSafe) is .gcsafe
18:37:35Araqand map(unsafe) is unsafe
18:38:30Araqwhen we default to .gcsafe we lose this inference and then the proc type of 'map' needs some new "infer" annotation
18:39:25Araqand I think this will people annoy much more, especially since it's inconsistent with every other effect
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18:41:03dom96What is the problem with only enforcing this when threads are enabled?
18:42:06Araqwe can do that easily
18:42:27dom96then do that
18:44:08Araqbtw .closure, gcsafe should work
18:44:26Araqand I'm quite sure I've used that
18:44:42Araqah you mean .gcsafe changes the calling convention?
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18:48:44Araqhi enquora welcome (back)
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18:49:34dom96I had to add 'closure' to the proc type in asynchttpserver.serve
18:50:28enquoraAraq: it's both unusual and nice to be greeted in a channel, even if it's bot-driven :-)
18:51:00Araqyeah, we'll see about that
18:51:19dom96Araq: Annoying thing is that it's complaining that asyncdispatch.cb is not gcsafe
18:51:34dom96But it really gives me no info as to what is un-gcsafe about it
18:51:56Araqit does, you need to activate some warning
18:52:29dom96hrm? what warning?
18:52:48Araq--warning[GcUnsafe]:on
18:53:13Araqstill kind of sucks as it produces lots of output
18:53:35Araqbut it should list the cause why your cb is unsafe
18:55:56dom96well, it's complaining that my callback is not gc-safe
18:55:57dom96when it is...
18:56:25dom96oh
18:56:44dom96But seriously
18:56:59dom96Why do I need the closure pragma?
18:57:38Araqthat's a bug
18:57:55dom96This adds so much noise :(
18:58:53Araqwell the thing is
18:59:36Araqsoon instead of .gcsafe everything should be .benign anyway
18:59:47Araqwe can't escape the noise, I think
19:00:43dom96oh come on
19:00:50dom96so soon we'll have to get rid of all these gcsafe's?
19:01:36dom96what if the user of asynchttpserver wants to access a global in their callback?
19:02:49dom96Instead making things painful for everyone, you should disable the calling of closures in threads or something.
19:02:54dom96or make it explicit
19:03:04dom96at the call site
19:04:16Araqhow do I do that?
19:05:19dom96unsafe f.func(blah)
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19:07:44Araqsyntax does not make a feature
19:09:36Araqhow do I "disable closures in threads"?
19:11:01dom96Don't allow them to be called inside of threads.
19:11:20Araqthat's horrible
19:11:22dom96If they are then raise a compile-time error.
19:11:52Araqand doesn't solve the problem
19:14:39dom96Restricting all closures in the stdlib to not access any global variables sounds horrible too.
19:16:09Araqwhy?
19:16:52dom96Because it means that I can't quickly create an example when i'm testing things.
19:16:57Araqonly GC'ed globals are affected and you can easily mark them as .threadvar
19:17:22AraqI've fixed enough of your simple examples to disagree
19:17:34Araqit was neither hard nor tedious
19:18:34dom96it's an unnecessary restriction when I'm not using threads
19:18:50dom96and just want my code to *work*
19:20:37dom96won't this break a LOT of code?
19:20:56dom96shouldn't it be left not on by default?
19:21:38Araqcan we stop it now? I'm thinking of some better way
19:22:00dom96thank you
19:22:55Araqso what should we do *for now*?
19:23:04Araqmake the error message a warning?
19:23:21Araqsounds better than disable it altogether when --threads:off
19:24:16Araqbtw --threadAnalysis:off already disables it
19:24:24Araqyou can use that for jester
19:25:39dom96I fixed it so it's fine.
19:26:10dom96warning would be better, yes.
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19:34:25Araqlol?
19:34:28NimBotdom96/jester new-async 0502143 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Add gcsafe pragmas to closure types.
19:34:38Araqso ... it took you longer to complain than to fix it?
19:35:44dom96sure :P
19:37:05NimBotAraq/Nimrod devel 2dff5ef Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Fixed gcsafe in asynchttpserver module.
19:37:24dom96I think that newcomers will not like it
19:39:12AraqI think "safe, but unexpressive and tedious" is modern and loved by the FP/Rust people
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19:43:06dom96Yes, and those people are already using Rust.
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19:46:30dom96OrionPK: new-async branch should now work
19:46:44dom96(newtest is the test you should be trying to compile)
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20:07:09NimBotnimrod-code/babel master 8042e12 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Fixes compilation with 0.9.4 hopefully.
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21:06:40Mat3hi all
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21:11:05Araqyay Mat3 is back!
21:11:06Araqhi
21:11:21Mat3hello Araq
21:13:01Mat3what's new ?
21:13:26Araqasync is stable, lots of other bugfixes
21:13:43Araqpeople like my 'spawn'
21:16:15flaviuMat3: You're going to have to step up your talking if you want to post more than Araq :P
21:16:35flaviuYou've only posted 1317 messages, you're in 24th place
21:16:42Mat3Araq: good news
21:16:59flaviu45838 is the number of messages to beat, good luck!
21:17:04Mat3flaviu: why is that relevant ?
21:17:17flaviuIt isn't
21:17:27Mat3eh... ok
21:17:28flaviubut its fun to look at the data
21:19:52*Mat3 need to study the async and 'spawn' stuff
21:20:08EXetoCit is relevant, so start talking
21:20:24Araqis "obsolete" a good name for a deprecated alias?
21:20:42flaviuEXetoC: How is it relevent?
21:20:54Araq{.obsolete TFoo: Foo.}
21:20:56flaviuAnyway, what do you want me to talk about?
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21:21:57Araqhow about you guys talk about my question?
21:22:17filwitcan you repeat the question?
21:22:27Araqis "obsolete" a good name for a deprecated alias?
21:22:29Araq{.obsolete TFoo: Foo.}
21:22:36dom96why do we need an alias?
21:22:42flaviuSure, although why do we need an alias?
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21:22:47EXetoCflaviu: just is
21:23:05Araqto have a nice transition period? (like always)
21:23:06filwitAraq: fine by me, but why not just use 'deprecated' ?
21:23:20Araqfilwit: too obvious lol
21:23:28filwitso 'obsolete' will be the new 'deprecated' ?
21:23:29flaviuEXetoC: Well, I took the irc logs and put them into sqlite, and then I ran some sql on them
21:23:46filwitwhy change exactly (i don't care if it's changed, just want to know why)
21:23:52flaviuAraq: Obvious == good, never is obvious bad
21:24:17flaviuEveryone else is using "deprecated", it's better to stick to what is commen
21:24:21Araqflaviu: I'm going with "deprecated"
21:24:31Mat3Araq: good choosen name in my opinion
21:24:36Araqit's just that this is then a statement pragma
21:24:52Araqbut surely this works
21:27:08Araqfilwit: lol you like my proposal better and I like yours better
21:27:54filwitAraq: about the --cs:partial thing? I didn't really like your proposal, but I like the way it works now...
21:28:08Araqyeah, well that's what I mean
21:28:39filwitokay. yeah I really think you should enable it by default and see how everyone reacts
21:29:12filwitcause I think most people will realize that it's avoids most conflicts... they just aren't trying it cause it's not default.
21:29:36Mat3I like these feature as optional as it is at current
21:29:58AraqMat3: ok, but it doesn't really work as "optional"
21:30:24Araqit only can work as a transition period
21:30:53filwitMat3: yeah, what Araq said... you can't have a module which exports 'foo' and 'Foo' and expect it to work in non-cs code
21:31:00Araqor we can introduce *quite* complex disambiguation rules for --cs:none
21:31:17Araqbut everybody is already complaining about the compiler's complexity
21:31:20dom96quite indeed
21:32:08dom96I guess we can break some more stuff since this release already breaks quite a lot.
21:32:11Mat3ok, I will change my code and spend a day testing it with the cs flag
21:32:28dom96Although perhaps we should look at it another way: we shouldn't break more stuff *because* this release already breaks quite a lot.
21:32:30AraqMat3: thanks
21:32:51dom96filwit: How's the website coming along?
21:33:08Araqdom96: since we already break lots of code, let's go the whole way
21:33:10filwitdom96: ug... slower than I want.. this weekend bro
21:33:58filwitdom96: i've had too many other things to do, and keep only getting an hour to work on it or something. I'm going to spend a few hours on it right now, but I have to finish some graphics for something else first.
21:34:29filwitAraq, dom96: I think, if there's ever a time to break code for good reason, this is it (with the name change).
21:35:00Mat3so Nimrod get a new name ?
21:35:02filwitAraq, dom96: but i agree that's a bad thing to do in general... i just think this has enough positive reasons to change it's justified
21:35:12filwitMat3: yes: nim
21:35:28Mat3good !
21:35:35filwityeah i love it too :)
21:35:45dom96I already got a bit annoyed by the new gcsafe stuff.
21:35:55dom96Case sensitivity may push me over the edge :P
21:35:56EXetoCplease use something that is easily googleable
21:36:08EXetoCor searchable, to be a little more neutral
21:36:12AraqI still think we should rename Babel to Babe...
21:36:14dom96EXetoC: nim is easily searchable
21:36:48filwitdom96: please try it out for a bit. It's really not an issue, especially with how it works (where only the first character matters)
21:36:49Araqthe Babe package manager... now who needs a girlfriend? :P
21:36:53EXetoCthere are indeed only about 1800 other nim's
21:36:55flaviuAraq: Good luck searching for Babe in google
21:37:11dom96Araq: Meh.
21:37:25AraqNimBabeNim
21:37:37dom96Araq: Babel is one of my greatest achievements, I don't want it to sound unprofessional.
21:37:52filwitAraq: no one would be able to find 'babe' package manager in those search results though... :P
21:38:06Araqok, let's name it Babe++ then
21:38:11filwitlol
21:38:13Araqthat's professional
21:38:38flaviuAraq: I have a new, awesome feature request that you should definitely implement: Constructors!
21:38:38flaviuAllow proc names to overload type names, as long as the said proc returns the same type as its name.
21:38:44EXetoCnim: a gazillion hits, nimlang: not so many
21:38:50EXetoCbut I've discussed this enough I think
21:39:09Mat3is the SDL2 wrapper stable ?
21:39:21dom96EXetoC: nim is unique enough in the context of programming
21:39:23Mat3(or as alternative the Allegro 5 wrapper)
21:39:40dom96EXetoC: seriously, it's a non issue. Especially considering the names of other programming languages.
21:39:48dom96Mat3: It should be, yes.
21:40:01EXetoCit's just as unjustified in those cases
21:40:09EXetoCwell if you need more context then it doesn't really matter
21:40:19filwitflaviu: you mean like how `proc new(T:type Foo, ...): Foo = ...' already works?
21:40:27AraqEXetoC: make a suggestion then
21:40:32dom96filwit: btw 4 dashes on the forum will give you a real <hr>
21:40:52flaviufilwit: No, `proc Foo(a,b,c: ...): Foo`
21:41:03Mat3dom96: thanks
21:41:06filwitdom96: you mean <br> ?
21:41:29dom96flaviu: Why not just use this? http://build.nimrod-lang.org/docs/manual.html#object-construction
21:41:36dom96filwit: no, I mean <hr>
21:41:45EXetoCAraq: though I might just be googling too much. I should bookmark things more etc, but I did suggest something like nimlang before
21:41:49filwitflaviu: oh i see... that's not a bad idea actually....
21:41:51flaviudom96: Because I want more logic in that
21:42:06filwitdom96: i forgot what <hr> does, one sec
21:42:13AraqEXetoC: no way, nimlang sounds like dlang and golang
21:42:15dom96filwit: horizontal rule
21:42:28EXetoCwhatever
21:42:34dom96Araq: That is how we will market it.
21:42:40flaviuAraq: Thats what people will end up googling anyway, most likely
21:42:40EXetoCit's just a suffix
21:43:01filwitdom96: oh, dur... right instead of my '---' thing. gotit thanks
21:43:07AraqEXetoC: nim.lang now that's awesome
21:43:11dom96Araq: #nimlang on twitter, #nimlang on irc, nim-lang.org on the web.
21:43:31dom96nim.io would be nice
21:43:33dom96but it's taken
21:43:45filwitAraq: nim.lang would be amazing..
21:43:52EXetoCn.io is also taken :<
21:43:57Araqnode.nim
21:44:21filwitnode.nim what? everyone will think Nim is a node.js extension...
21:44:50Araqfilwit: yeah that's great. just like JavaScript
21:44:52*dom96 wonders what nim.io is
21:44:55dom96It's in portuguese
21:44:56Araqthat has nothing to do with Java
21:45:01dom96and i'm too lazy to google translate it
21:45:06filwitAraq: lol
21:45:36dom96or maybe spanish
21:45:37dom96Dunno
21:46:23dom96Araq: Regarding lot's of breaking changes. We NEED to make sure that as much as possible of the libraries on babel work.
21:46:29dom96Especially the ones in nimrod-code
21:46:43dom96Otherwise people will not be impressed.
21:47:05dom96Would be nice if lots of us did this.
21:47:10Araqdom96: that's not a problem flaviu volunteered months ago.
21:47:15dom96Just sent PRs to libraries which are broken.
21:47:21dom96*send
21:47:35EXetoCAraq: they should be usable too
21:47:41EXetoCmongo is barely usable. what about the others?
21:47:47filwitdom96: meh, we can make a slide on the website about wanting "help with the transition period" and people will know what they're getting into
21:47:53dom96EXetoC: What is wrong with mongo!?
21:48:06dom96filwit: I don't think that's a good idea.
21:48:12Mat3well, I need a working SDL wrapper
21:48:25dom96filwit: We want people to think that Nim is ready for action.
21:48:57filwitdom96: sure
21:49:14filwitdom96: though I think the "Contributors wanted" is a good slide idea
21:49:21dom96of course
21:49:29dom96But it shouldn't say "Contributors wanted"
21:49:34dom96it should say "Want to help?"
21:49:47dom96"Here is how to get started!"
21:49:54filwit^ i like it
21:49:56dom96and a link to instructions for contributing code
21:50:47filwitthat's also why i put the github link in a obvious place. It's says "open source" and "here's how to help"
21:51:09filwitit conveys**
21:51:15dom96Maybe with a picture of the honey badger programming :P
21:52:19filwityeah i need to get to work on al of this now... Honey Badger is still not finished either, and we're planning to release before the turn of the month still right?
21:52:33EXetoCdom96: lack of functionality
21:52:39EXetoCor completeness
21:53:13dom96EXetoC: Fix it then.
22:01:05Araqfilwit: I don't know. there is LOTS of work to do
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22:03:24filwitAraq: yeah, and I wouldn't rush it either. If we want a big splash to happen with new name, compiler, docs, website, etc... lets make sure things are stable and good when people come by to check it all out? Just my thoughts. Mid August might make more sense.
22:05:20Araqfilwit: I think we should release 0.9.6 as a bugfix release and then take our time
22:05:49Araqbut then we only get more babel packages that somebody has to update ...
22:05:59Araqit's a tough problem
22:06:41VarriountPerhaps we should try to group breaking updates together?
22:07:45filwitAraq: I'll just be working on the web-site stuff for the moment and get it done as soon as I can. Then you can choose when to release it.
22:08:10Araqfilwit: ok
22:08:27VarriountSo... what are we doing?
22:08:45AraqVarriount: as usual we don't know what we are doing
22:09:28dom96We planned for this to be the 'breaking' release IIRC
22:09:34dom96So let's break what we must now.
22:10:13filwitgood idea! so lets rename seq to list!!
22:10:37filwit:P (just kidding...)
22:11:10Araq{.deprecated seq: list.}
22:12:15filwitin all honesty i would love that change (and list.nim to chain.nim), but I'm not going to press that issue and I don't want to start a huge issue about syntax (again)
22:12:17dom96{.deprecated seq: list, ver: 0.9.4.}
22:12:43dom96Then we could get the docgen to generate nice looking deprecated warnings
22:13:07Araqyou mean the docgen that nobody works on?
22:13:47filwiti'll be working on it as soon as the HTML/JS is completed this week.
22:14:02dom96Yeah, if only there were issues on the issue tracker which might tell people what needs to be done...
22:14:23Araqlike everything tagged as "tools"?
22:14:50Araqhow many tags do we need until people have no excuse anymore not to help?
22:15:14filwitwe need excuses not to help?
22:15:21filwit:P
22:15:25dom96Well I would have never thought to look in 'tools' for docgen issues.
22:18:21Araqdom96: well then go through the tools list and annotate it instead as 'docgen'
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22:28:09Araqok, I'm going for a smart 'deprecated' feature:
22:29:16Araq{.deprecated: [PFoo: FooRef, E_Base: Exception, EInvalidValue: InvalidValueError].}
22:30:02Araq{.deprecated: [PFoo, TFoo, EOverflow].} # compiler guesses the alias
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22:43:01Mat3need some sleep, caio
22:43:10Mat3^ciao
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22:44:53dom96same, good night
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23:06:56Araqfilwit: btw I like to extract the docgen into its own .exe
23:07:10Araqand the same for idetools
23:11:13filwitAraq: yeah i remember, we talked about that on TS
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23:17:22Araqok
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23:47:09OrionPKdom96 error: invalid expr for 'export': TNodeType
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23:56:06Araqgood night
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