<< 22-11-2016 >>
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01:03:32FromGitter<gogolxdong> what happened when we execute executable binary file?
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01:14:47cheatfategogolxdong: it depends on operation system
01:14:54cheatfateand binary file format
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01:15:37cheatfategogolxdong: https://www.joachim-bauch.de/tutorials/loading-a-dll-from-memory/
01:18:29FromGitter<gogolxdong> still online, that's the spirit
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09:20:38jh32hi
09:21:43jh32how can i create a reference to a sequence?
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09:49:02Salewskijh32: http://nim-lang.org/docs/tut1.html#advanced-types-sequences
09:49:34SalewskiWhen you create a new seq, you indeed get a reference.
09:50:51flyxSalewski: yes, but it has value semantics (assigning it to another variable will copy it)
09:51:24flyxhowever, you can use http://nim-lang.org/docs/system.html#shallowCopy,T,T on it
09:52:48SalewskiYes, I was not aware that he was asking about copying.
09:53:48flyxwell, why else would one want a reference if not for reference semantics
09:54:15flyxthere's also the shallow pragma which can be applied to a type to make shallow copies the default: http://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#pragmas-shallow-pragma
09:57:01SalewskiI would like to see an example for the shallowCopy -- read about it some monts ago, but for me it was not very easy to understand.
09:57:23SalewskiHave not played with it, because I did not need it at that time.
09:59:24jh32thanks
10:02:28AraqSalewski: instead of x = y write shallowCopy(x, y)
10:04:03SalewskiMaybe a related questio, we have sort() and sorted() in stdlib. In Ruby we would write x.dup.sort! to get a sorted copy. If we had no sorted() in Nim, would we write x.deepcopy.sort()
10:05:12Araqmaybe but knowing you sort into a fresh seq can be a performance advantage
10:05:36Araqalso the return types don't match, sorted returns something, sort doesn't
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10:06:09Araqsorted() doesn't have to be implemented as copy.sort(), you can do smarter than that
10:07:53SalewskiAraq, thanks. Would be really nice to have such notes and examples in a Cookbook.
10:09:08SalewskiAraq, have you seen I was able to produce a minimal example for the last nimsuggest crash! I was very happy about that!
10:10:20Araqsorry, can give me a link?
10:11:23Salewskihttps://github.com/nim-lang/nimsuggest/issues/41
10:11:40SalewskiIndeed it is a nim check compiler chrash.
10:12:14Araqah nice one
10:12:56SalewskiBye...
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10:38:59FromGitter<yglukhov> Memtracker sounds like something interesting. Whats that?
10:39:43Araqa "go back in time debugger", kind of
10:40:17Araqit tracks every memory write. So when something gets corrupted you can ask "ok, which code lines *really* did write to this location"
10:42:13Araqcomparable to GDB's watchpoints, except that in practice I found watchpoints to be unworkable
10:42:46Araq"jezz, how I am supposed the address in advance? we have address space randomizations everywhere"
10:42:51Araq*to know
10:43:09yglukhovoh thats nice.
10:45:36yglukhovbtw, i've hacked gc code some time ago to allow memory "leak" debugging. would be nice to have smth like that, but more official =)
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10:46:20yglukhovdoes it sound interesting to anyone?
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10:49:39Araqyeah, I tried to backport the gc:v2 stuff but failed :-)
10:50:14Araqon the other hand, leak debugging is just another query on my tracking database
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10:51:31Araqwhat does your patch add to find leaks?
10:54:24yglukhovnew public system function GC_objectShouldBeCollectedSoon(o: ref), which you to call at strategic places. Then GC will keep a stack of refenerences during collection, and print the stack when such "marked" objects are hit. The info it prints takes some time to understand though for those who see it for the first time.
10:55:06yglukhovbut it already saved us a ton of time.
10:55:54yglukhovalso it works for emscripten target, which sometimes has its own leaks not reproducible on native one.
10:56:45yglukhovi think the memgraph is still a superior solution of course, but unforunately i could not make it useable.
10:56:58Araqhow come?
10:57:20yglukhovwell, gcv2 doesn't like our threaded code at all :(
10:57:39yglukhovcrashes all the time
10:58:26yglukhovi suppose, it doesnt like "foreign" references on the stack or smth?
11:01:47AraqI think its logic is deeply flawed
11:01:55Araqwhen I stress test it, it breaks
11:01:59Araqno threading required
11:02:45yglukhovah thats a bummer
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11:12:33Varriount|MobileAraq: gcv2 is flawed?
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11:42:17euantorCalinou: I was/am working on the GitBook, when I get time. Work is extremely busy at the minute though and I'm putting in a bunch of overtime
11:55:45euantorRegarding the licensing discussion from yesterday, you can prise my BSD-3 license from my cold, dead fingers. I'd really rather not have Nimble tell me I should be using MIT over another license that I've chosen myself. Perhaps the best approach would be for it to default to MIT if no other license is chosen during init.
12:06:51AraqVarriount|Mobile: either its implementation or its concept. I don't know yet.
12:08:05chemist69Hi, trying to understand the `shallowCopy` mentioned above. Shouldn't this script (https://glot.io/snippets/ekju9mscab) output the same seq two times?
12:09:04Araqchemist69: no. shallowCopy is allowed to copy sometimes.
12:09:26Araqin this case it does copy in order to not screw up memory safety
12:09:44chemist69ok, can I force one behaviour over the other?
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12:13:02Araqno.
12:13:15Araqnot with shallowCopy.
12:13:34Araqyou can create a ptr to the seq
12:14:06chemist69I understand. Thanks a lot for the explanation.
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12:25:49cheatfateAraq, why watchpoints not suitable for you?
12:26:30Araqas I said, by the time I need a watchpoint it's already too late and the crash happened.
12:26:52Araqand I cannot rerun the program with the "same" watchpoint because addresses change all the time
12:29:08cheatfateand you need exactly break on address?
12:30:29cheatfateyou can assign watchpoint to variable + X i think
12:33:52cheatfateAraq, also you can make https://outflux.net/blog/archives/2010/07/03/gdb-turns-off-aslr/
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12:43:44Araqdom96: can confirm, the async bug is gone
12:45:36cheatfateAraq, which one?
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12:50:27Araqcheatfate: the 'all' proc
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13:03:55kulelu88hey Araq are you currently busy?
13:05:39Araqalways
13:08:34kulelu88Araq: I have a small piece of Flask REST code. Can you please show me what the equivalent code will look like in Nim: https://www.zerobin.net/?a66b58f1a1d71433#VpPFKXkjaCJR4KbOekUNm5xfyelVDs846NQCyZwLqPA= ?
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13:15:18PMunchkulelu88, that should be a delete request no`
13:15:35PMunchgithub.com/dom96/jester
13:15:39flyxkulelu88: that request makes little sense as a) your code snippet is not standalone (what's db?) and b) there are multiple possibilities of implementing this in Nim, e.g. jester or rosencrantz
13:15:39kulelu88PMunch: well it's not strictly restful
13:16:14kulelu88flyx: I don't want a full/complete re-implementation. I just want to see what equivalent code might look like in Nim
13:16:33kulelu88so you can 'assume' db is a global variable (taken as is)
13:16:46PMunchIf you look at the GitHub page I linked then the bottow example is pretty similar
13:17:41PMunchAfter the try-except clause you would have the simple db commands using the great Nim syntax for JSON
13:18:21flyxkulelu88: why don't you try and translate it to Nim yourself?
13:18:46kulelu88flyx: I want to see what similar code might look like from someone more familiar with Nim
13:21:14PMunchpastebin.com/dsiYG74t
13:21:17PMunchJust a guess
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13:21:38PMunchAssuming you have a db wrapper that looks similar to your Flask example.
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13:22:12kulelu88The DB will be Redis
13:23:20PMunchOh, the route name is not right by the way. And I misused 204
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14:26:36PMunchDid that kinda answer your question?
14:27:01PMunchCosidering to use Nim for a project kulelu88?
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15:09:36kulelu88PMunch: I am evaluating either going with Nim or Go. Go seems to have better HTTP support (even though I'm hesitant to use it, it is the 'best' tool for the job)
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15:20:16cheatfatekulelu88, Nim is better by design, but we do not have so many libraries/packages as Go
15:21:02PMunchPersonally I'm not a fan of Go
15:21:07kulelu88cheatfate: I need support for: HTTP, Async, Redis (that's all), and of course, the ability to send HTTPS requests via nginx to Nim code
15:21:23PMunchAll that should be doable in Nim
15:21:52kulelu88the lack of resources is the biggest drawback. Nim tutorials are few and far between
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15:22:43flyxyeah, people usually just ask here or in the forum and get answers
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15:24:08kulelu88and somehow, tutorials like this exist: http://goroutines.com/10m
15:24:17kulelu88(although I'm not aiming for 10M)
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15:29:44flyxgo's shortcomings always felt so arbitrary. there's the case of missing generics, but then on the other hand, there's stuff like runtime reflection. I always wonder if go wants to be super-low-level or super-high-level.
15:30:16PMunchWe should really start putting together more Nim tutorials
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16:02:55krux02is anyone out here able to talk about macros?
16:03:45krux02I would like to know if it is possible to write a macro that make my module feel more like a processing file
16:04:44krux02processing behaves different, depending on what is defined in the file.
16:05:37krux02when there ar setup and render procedures defined, the module gets a render loop where these things are used
16:06:26krux02when the module is just draw commands, the projects is just run once for each draw and then waits for an event to quit the program
16:06:48krux02so there is a lot of default behavior that makes a lot of sense to get started quickly
16:07:08krux02I would like to have these defaults for a nim project, too, and I thought it could be done with a macro
16:10:27Araqkrux02: I'm here
16:10:44krux02cool
16:11:50krux02so have you used processing from time to time?
16:12:09Araq"processing"?
16:12:34krux02yes processing from processing.org
16:12:57krux02it is not a new programming language it is just java
16:13:26krux02but they give you an idea similar to aporia, (one button execute)
16:13:49krux02the neat thing they do is, that you do not need to use any project templates
16:14:27krux02I don't know exactly what they do, but they make shure that your program is usable by the first line you write
16:15:52krux02they do it with code generation, and virtual methods
16:17:42krux02s/idea/IDE/g
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16:20:13Araqok ...? and you seek to replicate this with a macro?
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16:26:06krux02yes I do
16:26:45krux02I would just like to ask for a quick idea
16:27:14krux02I only know so far about macros that take an ast as an argument, not about macros that work on an entire project
16:27:38krux02I think I can do it with an untyped macro on the root of the project
16:28:05krux02so that basically nothing I write is no part of this marco argument
16:28:17krux02but I don't know if that has any unwanted sideeffects
16:28:24krux02like destroying tooling or something
16:31:09Araqwhat is the "root" of the project?
16:31:23AraqI don't think it's possible at all. :-)
16:31:52Araqby design macros process the ASTs handed to them.
16:32:17Araqthey don't rewrite everything willy-nilly, they cannot go up in the AST
16:34:19krux02with root I mean there is a macro call at the very first line of the project
16:34:52krux02so the macro does not go up in the ast at all
16:35:04krux02it.s just the macro knows everything
16:35:17Araqso just something like
16:35:20Araqbesmart:
16:35:25Araq .. code here ...?
16:35:29krux02yes
16:35:56Araqalright. what's the question then?
16:36:28krux02I have little doubt that it will work for that purpose, but I have doubts weather it is a wise thing to do
16:36:59krux02I just wanted to talk about an idea like that, before I would actually go implement it and see in the end that it is a very very bad idea
16:37:12Araqread my blog post about perl?
16:37:40krux02you mean the one, where you tried to make nim behave like perl?
16:37:47Araqyes :P
16:38:12krux02I think I did, not sure if everything is still active in my memory
16:38:55krux02though
16:39:09enthus1astkrux02 to me it sound that you want to have conditional code that gets compiled when you use a procedure
16:39:17enthus1astAraq where do you blog?
16:39:53krux02enthus1ast: did you use Processing?
16:39:57enthus1astnope
16:40:24Araqwell I bet I didn't cover it explicitly, but you need to ensure that your DSL composes
16:40:34krux02when you want to help me I recomment you trying out processing for 5 minutes, it will be oviouse what I mean in no time
16:41:14Araqusually this means having short templates that interact with Nim's type system rather than a single macro doing some heavy lifting and relying on syntactic features
16:42:00AraqI call these "keywords". When your macro relies on keywords, something is usually wrong
16:42:23Araqbest example: Nim's async macro that interprets 'await' as a keyword
16:42:37Araqbad design right here. :-)
16:43:21Araqwhy bad? because you cannot have the 'await' in a template.
16:43:28krux02I have macros that have a few keywords within, but they are more interpreted like flags that I pass in the form of an ast
16:43:45Araqit is then hidden from the .async macro, so it cannot process it.
16:43:49Araqmuch better design: await is a template that does the transformation to 'yield' on its own.
16:44:00Araqtada, 'await' can be used in templates.
16:44:24Araqit took us months to figure it out :D
16:44:28krux02I am not familiar with the async macro yet
16:44:36krux02I just didn't have a use case yet
16:44:54krux02I just look it up
16:46:27FromGitter<ephja> @Araq to figure out what? the aforementioned approach?
16:46:53FromGitter<ephja> hm. rewrite before the end of 2017? :p
16:47:14krux02Araq: can you tell me which module the macro is defined?
16:47:25krux02can't find it, too much is called async
16:49:27enthus1ast\Nim\lib\pure\asyncmacro.nim
16:50:19krux02ok I also did find it by now
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16:57:00enthus1astAraq where do you blog?
16:57:24euantorhttp://nim-lang.org/blog/
16:57:28enthus1ast: D
16:57:29enthus1astok
16:57:52enthus1astty euantor
16:58:35FromGitter<ephja> warning: does not contain CSS transformations and other cool things
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16:59:57krux02I am not that much into HTML and CSS, but I heared that it is not good for layouting text.
17:00:21euantorI'd say that the CSS doesn't matter, but having old posts at the top of the list on the index is super confusing ;)
17:00:34FromGitter<ephja> Motherfucking website awards 2016 ;)
17:00:51krux02I like old style websites
17:01:03krux02they load fast
17:01:33krux02we live in an age where the average page load is almost at the level of "Doom"
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17:03:26kulelu88"web 2.0" krux02
17:03:32FromGitter<ephja> I don't think it took that long for me without script blocking, but I'm sure there are people with worse connections
17:03:51FromGitter<ephja> CSS is indeed confusing when it comes to layouts
17:04:21krux02how do you do a three column layout in css?
17:04:26Araqephja: it took us months to find the problem. and then the solution. and as you can see, the stdlib still is not fixed.
17:04:40enthus1astkrux02 you use bootstrap or semantic ui ; )
17:04:43Araqkrux02: via tables.
17:05:01euantorIf you don't care about old browsers, you use flexbox
17:05:18euantorBut if you (like most people) have to support IE, you use tables as Araq said
17:05:32FromGitter<ephja> still?
17:05:44krux02I feel like a successful troll :D
17:06:00Araqephja: try to use 'await' in a template and see for yourself
17:06:30FromGitter<ephja> @Araq does the module in the upcoming directory have anything to do with this?
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17:06:58Araqno it uses the same macro, the macro implementation is shared
17:07:37FromGitter<ephja> ok
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17:47:22cheatfateAraq, about `bad design`, if await template appears, there will be more problems, then advantages, because everybody will try to use this template inside of ordinary procedures
17:47:56AraqError: 'yield' can only be used inside an iterator
17:48:02Araqinstantiation from here
17:48:04Araqvs
17:48:14AraqError: Unknown identifier 'await'
17:48:22Araqhardly a difference.
17:48:51cheatfatei think unknown identifier `await` is more easy to understand, then `yield` because dev even now wrote `yield` he wrote `await`
17:49:02cheatfateeven not wrote
17:49:27cheatfatedeveloper dont know anything about `yield`
17:49:34cheatfatehe tried to use `await`
17:49:58cheatfateold pythoners knows that `await` is just macro for `yield from`
17:50:15cheatfatebut c#ers don't know such structure
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17:52:13dom96I wouldn't say it took us "months to figure out"
17:52:26dom96It is however taking us months to implement
17:52:37dom96I still have a feeling that there will be a problem with this approach
17:53:00Araqdom96: well everything takes months here
17:53:03dom96another approach is to make it possible to annotate templates with {.async.} :P
17:55:22cheatfateAraq, maybe because we have lack of communication here... i'm still dont understand your idea with iterators as callbacks
17:57:47cheatfatei have watched your slides many times (from time to time) but still can't figure out any benefits
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23:46:05FromGitter<ephja> um. which tag to use on twitter for nim?
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23:54:12FromGitter<define-private-public> I'm running into a circular import issues with two types I'm making. Is there a way to forward declare types in nim?
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