| 00:00:23 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and hopefully, I can come up with a nice interface to plug-in whatever state management library you'd like to use |
| 00:00:41 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> although having worked with redux and alt and some of the more popular ones - I think mobx is the best out there atm |
| 00:00:47 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> if you even need such a thing |
| 00:05:13 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> My goal is to port all the hyperHTML examples to the new library, as well as re-author the playground's frontend using them - although the backend needs work too. Hopefully that will provide enough of an introduction to their usage. I'm still battling with work to get them in production - I had a setback on Friday in a 1 on 1 w/ my manager. |
| 00:05:22 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I'm once again very close to quitting :P |
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| 00:11:43 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I wonder if we could look at support for Nim & http://4coder.net/ |
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| 01:33:02 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> setback on what |
| 01:35:00 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> @gogolxdong my manager had a one on one meeting w/ me and talked about Nim not being viable for writing a component library w/ due to the lack of Nim programmers at our company / available in the recruiting pool. I don't understand where these requirements that we produce a re-usable component library came from - but it seems to be an excuse to continue to prevent Nim from entering our language ecosystem. |
| 01:36:28 | c15ade4 | I would say recruiting pool is a very real issue - though nim isn't particularly hard to learn |
| 01:36:51 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I'm at my wit's end regarding this situation - I'm relied on to produce more than 75% of our solution's code |
| 01:36:58 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> out of a two-person team |
| 01:37:33 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> not to mention I am the person who suggests 90% of our product solutioning and architecture - not that any of it is that brilliant |
| 01:37:58 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> it's just the other person I work with, only wants to write JS / ECMAScript and CSS - and doesn't care to learn anything else |
| 01:39:22 | FromGitter | <arnetheduck> @zacharycarter could have been visual basic 😛 |
| 01:39:24 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and we own a full-stack product - so I've been responsible for writing everything beyond the ajax calls - and even those (plus the tests, because the guy I work with doesn't know how to mock a resources in a test / what an integration test is) |
| 01:39:50 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> @arnetheduck at this point - I'm strongly considering following suit of that article I posted earlier - and just becoming a pro MS Excel game dev |
| 01:40:31 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> I can image that, I train my students to use Nim. |
| 01:41:30 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/CBel/20180213/308549/3D_engine_entirely_made_of_MS_Excel_formulae__Enjoy_this_Doomxls_file_.php |
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| 01:43:18 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> it seems about as useful :P but seriously - I cannot stand the prejudicial nature of most of my co-workers. if it doesn't have enterprise backing, or isn't built by Netflix, then it isn't worth exploring :/ |
| 01:43:55 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> @gogolxdong I wish I had gone to your school :P |
| 01:44:02 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> or had studied computer science haha |
| 01:44:03 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> we are a three people developping team, neither any of that brilliant. |
| 01:44:39 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> my student = my employee |
| 01:45:07 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> I was a teacher, so called them students. |
| 01:45:13 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> well - I can, with confidence, state that most of my co-workers known bullshit about computer science |
| 01:45:43 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> most of them don't know what a pointer is - if I'm lucky, I'm working with someone that understands the benefits of type-safety |
| 01:45:57 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and isn't just coming from a JS programming / boot-camp background |
| 01:46:27 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and if they are coming from a comp-sci background, they're probably strict OOP | Java adherents and think anything that isn't OOP / the Spring framework - is shit. |
| 01:46:52 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> It's tough convincing an audience like that to want to do anything else |
| 01:47:09 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> even if their software is constantly crashing / running OOM etc |
| 01:47:32 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and they spend 90% of their FE dev teams time optimizing away react / the fact they pass JSON between all their backend services |
| 01:48:01 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I can't fix stupid across a company though - I'm just a product dev... |
| 01:48:18 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> any time I raise issue - I tend to become a problem that they want to hide / not listen to |
| 01:57:33 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> It was a setback as I kept want to quit time over time for about three or four months when I was working on the idea of Boss who want to build their own cloud based on Openstack, set up the enviroment from known little of Openstack to a delivered one, I am so lucky to survive that I had my chance to enroll students to build up a dev team which I can spread Nim. |
| 01:58:55 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I've been with my company - carfax - for six years now, and I've suggested / introduced several new technologies without ever being given the credit or nod |
| 01:59:28 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> it usually goes like this - I present a new idea or tech in front of a group of peers, and I get a lot of questions / rebuttal about why we should learn something new or change |
| 01:59:46 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and then fast-forward several months and some team is using that tech and evangalizing it |
| 02:02:08 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and Nim I've been talking about for two years now, but we have typescript instead that no one knows - so I'm close to giving up. It seems Rust will win over Nim if Carfax ever even values a system programming language. |
| 02:02:47 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> We are using Go right now on our team, because I didn't want to use Java and some other teams were already using Go. |
| 02:03:35 | FromGitter | <arnetheduck> well.. in all honesty, rust does have a more vibrant community around it with more ready-to-be-used code generally of higher quality than that of nim.. |
| 02:03:43 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> But I wouldn't be surprised to see that go away in favor of some JVM language - and even if it doesn't - Go still kinda sucks due to its lack of not being a better C. |
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| 02:05:34 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I don't disagree with you on that point at all - but when the people evangelizing Rust at your work haven't written a line of code in it - it's frustrating. |
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| 02:08:17 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> https://gist.github.com/zacharycarter/b02970cfe51f9b346ff9ebf5b2a7e5e0 |
| 02:10:43 | FromGitter | <bung87> I’d say it’s a bad idea for let your mates using one minority language |
| 02:11:20 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> when you have a two-person dev team - does it matter? |
| 02:12:20 | FromGitter | <bung87> hmm that could make sense if he as some background. |
| 02:12:28 | FromGitter | <bung87> has |
| 02:12:36 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> also - people treat programming languages like they are some concrete barrier to writing software. I've ported thousands of lines of code to Nim in a few days - it's not that difficult to go from A to B if you have to. |
| 02:13:01 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> well - his only background is in JS / CSS / HTML - but we hire "programmers" like this at our company |
| 02:13:11 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and then let the influence how software is written |
| 02:14:35 | FromGitter | <bung87> well well ,only the js skills he has can be called “programming" |
| 02:15:11 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I guess - but he has a comp-sci degree supposedly and doesn't understand why static typing is beneficial |
| 02:15:17 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> so I question all of it :P |
| 02:15:58 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> it's not like he had an opinion on static vs dynamic typing |
| 02:16:08 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> he just legitimately didn't understand what static typing was |
| 02:16:16 | FromGitter | <bung87> he should learn more than one language, with different type . |
| 02:16:41 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> when I tried to explain meta-programming to him, he thought it was was me re-writing the compiler |
| 02:17:20 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> well I agree - but this is what I have to work with - I can't make him do that, but my bosses / management don't seem to care that I understand these things and he doesn't |
| 02:17:28 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> they just want us to spit out product |
| 02:17:50 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> so I'm finding a way out |
| 02:18:36 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> my first step is no longer agreeing to pickup all the slack I have been |
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| 02:18:49 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> so that conversation happens tomorrow - should be fun :) |
| 02:18:52 | FromGitter | <bung87> ah , maybe he doest has so much passion in programming as you. |
| 02:19:09 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> no one I work with does - or comes close |
| 02:19:28 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I'm the rare exception - I'm probably one of the only programmers at my job that has a personal github that has more than 10 commits |
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| 02:22:17 | FromGitter | <bung87> that’s normal thing, they don’t even star repository, not curious about new technic that other people have done. |
| 02:23:11 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> yeah - to lots of people programming / IT is just a job - they don't care about it outside of office hours |
| 02:23:38 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I love programming - it's my passion, hobby and job - yet I struggle to find like minded peers. |
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| 02:28:08 | FromGitter | <bung87> yeah people are different. |
| 02:30:03 | FromGitter | <arnetheduck> any decent option parsing libs in nim that can be recommended? ie something akin to python argparse maybe? |
| 02:31:21 | FromGitter | <bung87> https://github.com/docopt/docopt.nim |
| 02:32:22 | FromGitter | <arnetheduck> @bung87 thanks, checking |
| 02:33:50 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> @arnetheduck https://github.com/c-blake/cligen |
| 02:33:52 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> amazing |
| 02:34:43 | FromGitter | <bung87> yeah check cligen first |
| 02:34:57 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> cligen is awesome, very active and responsive dev too |
| 02:35:15 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> I think people who uses Nim at this early stage works for passion mostly. Passion is a good weapon to clean up all the barriers to make what you want come true. |
| 02:35:30 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> From want I learn today, docopt dev has stopped using Nim? (I could be wrong). |
| 02:35:49 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> yeah - I think he's moved to Crystal |
| 02:36:22 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> but I don't think he's written Nim for a while |
| 02:36:59 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> he and https://github.com/fowlmouth are Nim contributors that I've relied on a lot for bindings to libraries I've needed in gamdev pursuits |
| 02:37:18 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> but are both no longer (unfortunately) writing Nim code / bindings |
| 02:38:00 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I'm more curious as to what happened to foulmouth - mostly because his name on github is - Billingsly Wetherfordshire ⏎ ⏎ 1) which is outrageously awesome |
| 02:38:30 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> / can't be real |
| 02:43:43 | FromGitter | <bung87> seems crystal more popular than Nim, the stars of Nim looks like more like a library. |
| 02:45:33 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> yeah - and Crystal has no windows support |
| 02:45:44 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> or at least very lacking windows support |
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| 02:46:42 | FromGitter | <bung87> maybe they just want use it in backend programming. |
| 02:46:49 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal/issues/5430 |
| 02:46:53 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I don't think so |
| 02:47:17 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> they're aiming for full windows support it appears |
| 02:47:50 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> they have a ways to go though |
| 02:48:21 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I think they had / have had better marketing with Nim |
| 02:48:39 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I also think that's where Nim should spend some of its newly acquired budget - is in the marketing department |
| 02:48:45 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> any would help |
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| 02:50:27 | FromGitter | <bung87> Nim just needs more developers for currently I think. |
| 02:50:41 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> that's true as well |
| 02:51:24 | FromGitter | <bung87> compiler,core,std,tools,gc…. |
| 02:51:39 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> well - this has been the case for a while :P |
| 02:52:16 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> but I think with the newly acquired funding - and hopefully more to follow - Nim is poised to gain further traction than it already has |
| 02:53:09 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I think one of Nim's challenges has been trying to keep the language relatively simple (so that it can be developed on - and not require a huge development staff) - while also allowing for a large set of features |
| 02:53:47 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> but I'm sure at some point, trying to maintain that balance becomes problematic / somewhat impossible |
| 02:55:20 | FromGitter | <bung87> since Nim targets different backends that make it more huge. |
| 02:55:21 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> but Nim also has some extremely smart people behind it (obviously) so I have faith in the language moving forward in a positive direction |
| 02:56:23 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> yeah - but that's also one of the driving design philosophies behind the language - if Nim didn't have support for the various backends it does - it wouldn't be as attractive |
| 02:56:53 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I'm using Nim for (hopefully) JS at work and in my personal time - the C target for game dev |
| 02:57:28 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and I'm not using Rust - because I don't want another language that feels like I'm coding in C++ again |
| 02:57:35 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I'd rather just use C++ |
| 02:59:22 | FromGitter | <bung87> I just worried about Nim has few developers |
| 02:59:38 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> well - it's had as few developers as it has ever had |
| 02:59:46 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> if that makes you feel any more comfortable :) |
| 03:00:32 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> err more contributors |
| 03:00:33 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> sorry |
| 03:01:01 | FromGitter | <bung87> I like Nim language design ,even its site and forum design. |
| 03:01:16 | FromGitter | <bung87> and the logo. |
| 03:01:22 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/graphs/contributors |
| 03:02:58 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I just wouldn't be worried about your concerns too much - yes they are legitimate, but they are being alleviated over time |
| 03:03:07 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> Nim's been around for 10ish years now |
| 03:03:30 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and the contributor department has always been slim - but I think there are more people paying attention the language than ever before |
| 03:03:34 | FromGitter | <bung87> well I see the recently commits ’s contributor can be count by one hand |
| 03:03:39 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> so it can't get any worse than it's already been |
| 03:04:54 | FromGitter | <bung87> I generally not use it in company’s products. |
| 03:06:04 | FromGitter | <bung87> prefer using typescript as front-end and python as backend. |
| 03:06:41 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I don't think you've raised any valid reasons NOT to use Nim vs TypeScript or Python in your backend |
| 03:07:01 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I know Nim's async module has had its issues as of late regarding mem leaks |
| 03:07:07 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> but assuming those get resolved |
| 03:07:31 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I'd rather gain from Nim's performance than use Python on my backend |
| 03:07:38 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> as well as static-typing |
| 03:08:06 | FromGitter | <bung87> well, reason just simple, if I just got a python lib right by my hand… what else I would want.. |
| 03:08:12 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and Typescript IMO sucks - not a fan of all of the OOP style it forces upon me |
| 03:09:22 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> Sure - if Nim can't do X, Y or Z I'm going to reach for something else - but if it can - I'm going to attempt to use it if I have the opportunity |
| 03:09:42 | FromGitter | <bung87> I just dont want face js’s traps made by its bad language design. |
| 03:09:44 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> beyond DB ORM and enterprise APIs - I'm not finding a lot that Nim can't do |
| 03:10:13 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I think Nim is very well designed - and the areas that its struggling with are going through RFC's constantly |
| 03:10:41 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> so I think Nim has a bright future - it just takes time and eventual consensus amongst users |
| 03:11:16 | FromGitter | <bung87> well, I can just solve my problems in other languages , save my time and see what I can do it in Nim. |
| 03:11:35 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> true - there are easier routes |
| 03:11:42 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and safer ones |
| 03:12:33 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> but for instance - I can take the task of declaring web components - and streamline it with Nim with a custom DLS via macros |
| 03:12:43 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> that's something I can't do in TypeScript |
| 03:12:47 | FromGitter | <bung87> yeah cuz I dont think take paid time to do these things,will make my boss happy :) |
| 03:13:24 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> well if you write a library that saves co-workers a certain percentage of time - maybe it will |
| 03:14:17 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> maybe being able to use one language on both the front and back ends of your stack and reducing tech-sprawl will make your boss happy |
| 03:14:18 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> who knows |
| 03:16:08 | FromGitter | <bung87> that reminds me of the last project my mates seems not happy to co-work with me , so I did more work alone, make things transparent to him. |
| 03:21:06 | FromGitter | <bung87> generally I use different languages in FE and BE,since they have different ecosystems, I just prefer quick one |
| 03:22:04 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> Question about the --gcc.exe and --gcc.linkerexe switches .. |
| 03:22:14 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> I couldn't find the documentation for those anywhere |
| 03:22:21 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> not even in `nim --fullhelp` (devel) |
| 03:22:39 | FromGitter | <bung87> Nim compiler manual? |
| 03:22:54 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> this is the only reference: https://nim-lang.org/docs/nimc.html#cross-compilation |
| 03:23:10 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> .. but shouldn't `nim --fullhelp` have this? |
| 03:23:37 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> to check if a switch containing `foo` is valid, I typically do `nim --fullhelp | rg foo` |
| 03:26:05 | FromGitter | <bung87> maybe the document reference explain enough |
| 03:28:45 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> should be easy to make it include it - https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/compiler/commands.nim#L79 |
| 03:29:09 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/compiler/commands.nim#L58 |
| 03:31:20 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> oh! those switches are hard-coded! |
| 03:31:23 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/doc/advopt.txt |
| 03:31:32 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> yup |
| 03:31:55 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> who knows what else we are missing in there then |
| 03:32:31 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> good point |
| 03:34:10 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> although I have a feeling (maybe) those define what is allowed to be supplied as options to the CLI |
| 03:34:41 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> so it may be more of a egg / chicken scenario than you're thinking of |
| 03:35:08 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> so where is "--gcc.exe" defined |
| 03:35:14 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> yeah I just thought that |
| 03:35:19 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> (not a question to you.. in general) |
| 03:35:22 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> haha since you originally stated that |
| 03:35:24 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> hrm |
| 03:35:59 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> it probably dynamically recognized? |
| 03:36:05 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> --clang.exe, .. |
| 03:36:12 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> could be |
| 03:36:41 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> but still, I couldn't find reference to even "linkerexe" |
| 03:36:41 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/tools/finish.nim#L80-L84 |
| 03:37:15 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> that's not right |
| 03:37:16 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> hrm |
| 03:37:38 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> this? https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/fedd695d76e621bfbbaca4bbc8f66996a0a732a4/compiler/extccomp.nim#L666 |
| 03:37:48 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> (blindly grepping through things) |
| 03:38:01 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> yeah |
| 03:38:07 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> that looks right |
| 03:39:18 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> ok.. found all other extra switches in this family of switches |
| 03:39:25 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5ba85c6dbe4f300626db7639] |
| 03:39:28 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> maybe all these should be documented as well? - https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/compiler/extccomp.nim#L342-L356 |
| 03:39:33 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> these should be documented though |
| 03:39:34 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> hehe |
| 03:40:02 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> (grepped `'getConfigVar.*"\.'`) |
| 03:40:04 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> anywho - bedtime :P have a good one! |
| 03:40:15 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> (i am on est too :P) |
| 03:40:20 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> good night :) |
| 03:40:49 | FromGitter | <bung87> good night! |
| 03:40:57 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> haha yeah - getting late :P have a good one you guys, talk soon! |
| 03:46:30 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> I have opened this issue to track the documentation of these compiler switches: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/9056 |
| 03:53:55 | FromGitter | <lotzz_gitlab> i was on the discord, but more people seem to be here |
| 03:54:14 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> They should be bridged |
| 03:54:47 | FromGitter | <lotzz_gitlab> i have no idea how you would do that |
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| 05:10:01 | FromGitter | <codenoid> good noon all |
| 05:10:05 | FromGitter | <codenoid> ✨ |
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| 05:50:42 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> New blog post: https://scripter.co/nim-deploying-static-binaries/ |
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| 06:22:29 | FromGitter | <DanielSokil> Does Nim have support or bindings for algorithms such as PBKDF2, bcrypt, scrypt, and crypt ($2y$, $5$, $6$)? ⏎ Can't seem to find much besides this: https://nim-lang.org/docs/lib.html#pure-libraries-cryptography-and-hashing |
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| 06:58:20 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> are you switching your time zone@codenoid |
| 06:59:14 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> recall you said good morning at the time. |
| 07:11:43 | FromGitter | <codenoid> i was in mars atm |
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| 08:20:48 | notbot[m] | @freenode_jonathon:matrix.org: you may be interested in https://github.com/lee-b/nimrun |
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| 08:27:44 | chemist69 | Good morning, I have a (probably) dumb question (please be patient with me, I have a non-CS background). |
| 08:28:09 | chemist69 | When I define a `ref object` (whose instances are located on the stack) and within that `ref object` I define a member type that is usually located on the stack, like e.g. a Table ( not a TableRef). Where is that inner type located? Thanks for your help! example gist: https://gist.github.com/apahl/6c87070db4996a66cd09a67d3c1527c3 |
| 08:28:39 | chemist69 | sorry I meant `ref object`is located usually on the HEAP. |
| 08:28:56 | chemist69 | Geez. |
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| 08:43:14 | Araq | everything embedded in a heap object is also on the heap |
| 08:44:32 | chemist69 | Thanks Araq for the clear answer. |
| 08:49:02 | chemist69 | despite mymeese-up question ;-) |
| 08:49:30 | chemist69 | *messed-up* I swear, I'm not doing this on purpose! |
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| 09:07:13 | FromGitter | <mratsim> https://medium.com/@giovanni_94706/introducing-nimtorch-b8b0fa749464 |
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| 09:19:42 | FromGitter | <Bennyelg> @mratsim 👍 |
| 09:27:02 | Araq | does anybody use 'import system except foo, bar' ? |
| 09:27:16 | Araq | aka an explicit 'import system except...' statement? |
| 09:27:19 | FromGitter | <Bennyelg> when using nre |
| 09:28:16 | FromGitter | <mratsim> I did use it to solve conflicts in the past, maybe due to `$` or `!=` or `>` |
| 09:29:12 | FromGitter | <xmonader> I've a question, to reexpose functions/types from another package in your package what would you do? ⏎ ⏎ for instance redisparser has some functions i want to reexpose for whoever import my redisclient package? |
| 09:30:31 | FromGitter | <mratsim> import foo ⏎ export FooType |
| 09:33:58 | Araq | I'm talking about 'import *system* except' |
| 09:34:10 | Araq | but ok, never mind, it continues to work |
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| 09:55:13 | c15ade4 | Araq: one good thing about nimble, you can probably do a script to check every package on there for feature use |
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| 09:57:17 | c15ade4 | actually |
| 09:57:19 | c15ade4 | https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=import+%2B+except+extension%3Anim+language%3ANim&type=Code |
| 10:00:32 | FromGitter | <narimiran> speaking of import, will `from foo import bar as baz` become possible? |
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| 10:03:58 | Araq | no, I dislike symbol aliasing |
| 10:04:46 | FromGitter | <narimiran> ok, thanks. i've seen an issue asking this, didn't know what's the status of it |
| 10:05:59 | FromGitter | <narimiran> @mratsim maybe wait a bit until the last nim article cools of, but this should be posted to HN/reddit |
| 10:06:31 | FromGitter | <mratsim> It’s on reddit already, not on HN though |
| 10:07:32 | FromGitter | <narimiran> now i see it. it is not on r/programming yet. and maybe better to stay so, before we are (again) accused of nim-brigading :D |
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| 10:14:52 | FromGitter | <mratsim> We have a rusty umbrella though :P |
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| 11:28:20 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> Araq: import .. except is used when using strutils and unicode |
| 11:28:45 | Araq | it's not about 'import .. except' |
| 11:28:55 | Araq | it was about 'import system except' |
| 11:28:58 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> Wait.. let me reread |
| 11:29:07 | Araq | naming the special 'system' module here |
| 11:29:29 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> Got it. I thought *system* was just an example :) |
| 11:29:31 | Araq | but it's ok, it continues to live for a little longer until I decide this feature is not worth its costs :P |
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| 12:00:37 | enthus1ast | if i target the js platform and export functions to be called by js, then i must call procs like this foo(obj, param1, paramN), how can i transform it that this became valid: obj.foo(param1, paramN)? |
| 12:01:55 | enthus1ast | must i construct a new object where the functions are attributes? |
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| 12:09:07 | kobi7 | hi! |
| 12:09:22 | kobi7 | what is the delegate syntax in nim? |
| 12:11:09 | PMunch | kobi7, what are you trying to do? |
| 12:11:17 | enthus1ast | i had to look up the definition of "delegate syntax" but it sounds a little like nim's concepts |
| 12:14:05 | enthus1ast | or type :) |
| 12:14:34 | kobi7 | let x = proc(a,b : c) ... something like that |
| 12:14:37 | kobi7 | brb |
| 12:19:01 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> Looking at the example in http://www.tutorialsteacher.com/csharp/csharp-delegates, Nim does that automatically. |
| 12:19:21 | krux02 | narimiran: you can use templates and macros to get something like symbol aliasing, but I guess it would be hacky, you probably shoudn't use it, but it could work. |
| 12:19:24 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> You don't need a delegate syntax in Nim (from what I understand in that example). |
| 12:20:13 | PMunch | Yeah, kobi7 you can simply do let x = proc(a,b: int): int = a+b |
| 12:20:26 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> kobi7: based on the type of a proc argument, if a proc with that signature is defined, that proc is used automatically. |
| 12:20:28 | PMunch | Then you can call that with: x(5,7) |
| 12:22:04 | FromGitter | <narimiran> krux02: nah, i'm fine the way it is now :) |
| 12:26:43 | kobi7 | PMunch, and all, ok thanks. couldn't find in the docs and wasn't sure it would be working right |
| 12:27:06 | kobi7 | yeah, i meant an anonymous function |
| 12:27:34 | FromGitter | <alehander42> hey , I finished a first version of my pattern matching lib |
| 12:27:35 | FromGitter | <alehander42> https://github.com/alehander42/gara |
| 12:27:51 | FromGitter | <alehander42> i'd like some feedback if anybody is interested in the topic |
| 12:28:21 | kobi7 | when I define an array, do I have to specify the size? what if it's a concept I'm defining, or don't know the size beforehand? (just want it limited) |
| 12:29:11 | enthus1ast | for an arry you need the size, if this is not known at compile time use a sequence (seq) |
| 12:30:06 | kobi7 | what if I want a sequence that can't be added to, like an array is? |
| 12:30:24 | kobi7 | (can't be enlarged) |
| 12:30:51 | kobi7 | Alehander, looks really cool. in the example, what does that mean? (a: 4, b: 4) |
| 12:33:07 | FromGitter | <alehander42> good question, that's a shorter syntax for `TypeName(a: 4, b: 4)` |
| 12:33:51 | FromGitter | <alehander42> in nim code, often you know the type of the value which you match, so it wouldn't make sense to always have 3-4 branches with `SameOldTypeName(..)` |
| 12:34:15 | FromGitter | <alehander42> there is a section for each type of pattern down in the README |
| 12:35:11 | kobi7 | so it matches an object where field a is 4, and field b is 4, but the match is against array 'a' |
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| 12:36:10 | kobi7 | * is rest? |
| 12:36:12 | FromGitter | <narimiran> @alehander42 thanks for providing the examples (this often is missing in nim libraries), but what i would also like to see are the 'results' of such examples. e.g. in the first example, what would match that `@[_, *(a: 4, b: 4) @others]`. the same goes for the examples in objects, subpatterns, capturing, etc. |
| 12:36:27 | FromGitter | <alehander42> ahh I have to add the beginning of the example |
| 12:36:34 | kobi7 | other than that, looks very nice! |
| 12:36:34 | FromGitter | <alehander42> it really doesn't seem obvious that way, a second |
| 12:36:52 | FromGitter | <alehander42> @narimiran very good idea, I'll do it |
| 12:36:55 | krux02 | (a: 4, b: 4) is just a tuple with a and b as members |
| 12:36:58 | krux02 | there is no name |
| 12:37:29 | kobi7 | krux02: i mean that afterwards, it checks others == a[ 1 .. ^1] |
| 12:37:54 | kobi7 | so a is some sequence, where does the tuple come in? |
| 12:38:34 | kobi7 | is it an array with two objects, disregarding the first? |
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| 12:40:19 | FromGitter | <narimiran> @alehander42 great! because these examples are nice to see the syntax/DSL, but i am still not sure how to use it on my own and 'what is what' exactly ;) |
| 12:40:20 | krux02 | kobi: acutally you can create an array that starts at index 1 |
| 12:40:40 | krux02 | array[1..8, int] is an array that starts at index 1, not at index 0 |
| 12:41:31 | kobi7 | looks useful. |
| 12:42:14 | kobi7 | do you know what a decision table is? I've yet to see a way to convert that 2d info to 1d code |
| 12:42:54 | kobi7 | let's say mimic, not convert |
| 12:43:31 | kobi7 | a macro for that could be awesome, topic kind of related |
| 12:43:38 | FromGitter | <narimiran> nested if-elif? |
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| 12:44:29 | krux02 | memory is always linear |
| 12:44:48 | krux02 | to fake 2D memory, there are space filling curves |
| 12:45:00 | krux02 | I think it is used for texture memory on the GPU |
| 12:45:35 | krux02 | kobi7, I know what a decision table is. But I don't know how you mean with 2D info. |
| 12:45:57 | krux02 | but normally I work with decision trees. |
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| 12:49:21 | FromGitter | <alehander42> @kobi7 https://github.com/alehander42/gara#objects that should be a better explanation |
| 12:49:24 | krux02 | narimiran: yes a decision tree is practically a nested if elif construct. But normally that term is used in machine learning when the decision tree is stored as a constructed that is generated by some learning algorithm. |
| 12:50:05 | krux02 | and the result it is something like: It's a mouse, it's an elephant, it's a tree, or something like that. |
| 12:53:12 | krux02 | alehander42: I think if I release a new version of ast-pattern-matching I would change the meaning of the backtick operator. |
| 12:54:02 | krux02 | A backtick is used in scala to match a value literally, and that would work in nim equally well. |
| 12:54:39 | FromGitter | <narimiran> krux02: yeah, i've done some simple decision trees. but i'm not sure i understand what exactly is kobi7 asking ;) |
| 12:55:07 | krux02 | me neither |
| 12:55:19 | FromGitter | <narimiran> *simple models with DT |
| 12:55:38 | krux02 | DT? |
| 12:56:25 | FromGitter | <alehander42> @krux02 that might make sense, I didn't want to use it with a 3rd different meaning |
| 12:56:31 | FromGitter | <alehander42> ah gitter drops all messages when you're in bad network |
| 12:57:15 | krux02 | irc: just doesn't send you then messages :P |
| 12:57:25 | kobi7 | alehander42, now I understand the example. thanks |
| 12:58:10 | FromGitter | <narimiran> krux02: DT = decision tree |
| 12:58:20 | krux02 | ah |
| 12:58:21 | krux02 | ok |
| 12:58:24 | kobi7 | krux02: by 2d info, i meant that it's a table, and visually parsable, whereas nested ifs are more complex to get right for us mere mortals :-) |
| 12:58:54 | krux02 | a table, like with plates glasses and bottles? |
| 12:58:59 | krux02 | more context pleas |
| 12:59:12 | kobi7 | if there was a textual representation of that, that with a macro gets transformed to nested ifs or a switch case, that could be really nice |
| 12:59:38 | krux02 | i have no idea what you are talking about. |
| 12:59:52 | krux02 | a macro doesn't magically convert stuff |
| 12:59:59 | krux02 | a macro does things when you invoke it. |
| 13:00:08 | FromGitter | <narimiran> kobi7: but the rows in that table (dataframe) are variables, and columns are conditions, right? |
| 13:00:11 | kobi7 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_table#Example |
| 13:00:48 | kobi7 | yes, because of the truth/false values, it gets annoying to do that by hand. some people use excel just to verify their logic |
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| 13:01:19 | krux02 | so you want a macro that generates the decision logic when you pass it a decision table in ast form? |
| 13:01:43 | FromGitter | <narimiran> if you write/sketch that table as a tree, you can easily recreate that with 'programming logic' |
| 13:02:01 | kobi7 | anyway, i'm just talking about it because of the pattern matching library. some programming fields have complex logic... |
| 13:02:13 | krux02 | this isn't complex. |
| 13:02:31 | FromGitter | <narimiran> if it is both warm and sunny: you don't need a coat. if it is warm and raining: umbrella. etc etc. |
| 13:02:36 | krux02 | you can write a macro to do it for your, or you do it at runtime and store the result in a variable with a {.global.} tag. |
| 13:03:51 | krux02 | I think it's a good exercise to start working with macros. |
| 13:03:59 | kobi7 | krux02: it can be complex, depending on how many variables. and then you forget one condition, and meet the situation at runtime |
| 13:04:06 | krux02 | it is a not too complicated topic, but there is no solution to pick it. |
| 13:04:29 | krux02 | kobi7, write a macro for it. |
| 13:04:35 | kobi7 | krux02: but what syntax would you use for that? |
| 13:04:53 | krux02 | that is what you have to figure out, because you want to use it eventually |
| 13:05:25 | krux02 | you can try different representations and see how their ast looks like |
| 13:05:39 | kobi7 | if u do yyyynnnn stuff, later the table grows. it's good documentation, but annoying to do textually |
| 13:05:48 | krux02 | and then based on whats easiest to process, and how well it repersents your decision table you make a decision |
| 13:06:00 | FromGitter | <narimiran> kobi7, each row of the table is a tuple, and based on the fields of that tuple — you have different outcome |
| 13:07:03 | krux02 | the yyyynnnn part doesn't contain information |
| 13:07:07 | krux02 | therefore I would omit it |
| 13:07:49 | krux02 | I just think it is weird that on wikipedia it is yyyynnnn and then yynnyynn instead of nnyynnyy |
| 13:10:23 | FromGitter | <bung87> seems memfiles much faster than using a big table? |
| 13:12:27 | kobi7 | krux02: there was some "research" on this, https://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=39 |
| 13:12:43 | kobi7 | and also a product called logicgem from an unrelated company |
| 13:13:42 | kobi7 | I just think it's excellent documentation to see the actions based on conditions, so visually. but there isn't really a mapping, unless you basically draw it in ascii |
| 13:14:25 | kobi7 | just a glass elevator thing. doesn't matter |
| 13:14:47 | krux02 | kobi7, I don't know what subtext is and the link to the zip is broken |
| 13:15:07 | kobi7 | it's 12 years old... |
| 13:15:29 | kobi7 | maybe this works? http://www.subtext-lang.org/demo1.html |
| 13:16:39 | kobi7 | sorry i meant this one: https://vimeo.com/140738254 |
| 13:18:52 | kobi7 | procedural languages simply create smaller functions, to help with complexity. it's not very important. jwas just reminded of that. |
| 13:19:08 | kobi7 | cu |
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| 13:21:16 | krux02 | well I do disagree that all these foldings do help |
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| 13:21:37 | krux02 | well maybe in a certain way, but I am way to focused on text navigation that this change would confuse be |
| 13:21:43 | krux02 | but apart from that he has a point. |
| 13:22:03 | krux02 | but on the other hand I do think that you should undersdand boolean logic |
| 13:22:16 | krux02 | for example when I have conditionals I always know how to convert them |
| 13:22:43 | krux02 | ¬(a∨b) = ¬a∧¬b |
| 13:23:07 | krux02 | ¬(a∨b) = ¬a∧¬b |
| 13:23:36 | krux02 | ¬(a∧b) = ¬a∨¬b |
| 13:24:08 | krux02 | a→B = ¬a ∨ b |
| 13:24:58 | krux02 | I learned that at university, when a programmer is not able to do it, well yea decision trees might become very messy |
| 13:26:17 | krux02 | (a∨b)∧c = a∧c ∨ a∧c |
| 13:26:34 | krux02 | sorry I mean: (a∨b)∧c = a∧c ∨ b∧c |
| 13:27:07 | krux02 | with these simple rules expression trees can be shortened. |
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| 13:45:28 | FromDiscord | <0xAC44> I have an array[0..31, char] given to me from an SDL event, and I need to append it to a string. How would I do that? (And actually, exactly what does array[0..31, char] mean? I'm just getting started with nim) |
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| 13:47:23 | krux02 | that is a type |
| 13:47:29 | krux02 | it is an array of 32 characters |
| 13:47:50 | krux02 | you can cast the addres from it to ``cstring`` |
| 13:47:58 | krux02 | and that is convertible to string |
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| 13:48:22 | FromDiscord | <0xAC44> That works! Thanks. |
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| 13:56:00 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> yay - more people writing game stuff w/ Nim :D |
| 13:57:14 | FromDiscord | <0xAC44> Not quite - I'm trying to write a toy digital audio workstation |
| 13:57:33 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> even cooler :D |
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| 13:58:34 | FromGitter | <tim-st> 0xAC44: here is the best solution for this (see "Update"): https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/4127#25706 |
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| 13:59:42 | FromDiscord | <0xAC44> Thanks! Better use that instead of "text.add (addr tevt.text).cstring", then? |
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| 14:00:38 | FromGitter | <tim-st> yes, why convert to cstring? |
| 14:03:27 | FromDiscord | <0xAC44> I think I didn't pay attention to the difference between cast and conversion on my first quick tutorial read. I'll have to make a second pass |
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| 14:06:38 | FromGitter | <mratsim> cast is reinterpreting the memory blob |
| 14:07:41 | FromGitter | <mratsim> if you’re working with memory blob I suggest you check https://github.com/status-im/nim-byteutils |
| 14:08:06 | FromGitter | <mratsim> Also this but it’s much more involved and less self-documented: https://github.com/status-im/nim-ranges |
| 14:09:12 | FromGitter | <mratsim> but basically just use openarray\[char\] and toOpenArray (requires devel) https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/a892d519a60e08212ea05e99bb9f858e6673ee6b/lib/system.nim#L4242-L4252 |
| 14:09:45 | FromGitter | <mratsim> openarray are Nim builtin type for pointer + len and are compatible with seq (and maybe strings? but just use seq bytes) |
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| 14:11:09 | FromGitter | <mratsim> otherwise you can cast\ptr UnchecheckArray\[bytes\ (foo[0].unsafeAddr) @0xAC44, that we gives you array-like semantics on a pointer so you won’t have to implement pointer arithmetics, just index as natural. |
| 14:11:21 | FromGitter | <mratsim> sorry byte not bytes* |
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| 14:20:04 | FromGitter | <narimiran> yes, openArray is compatible with strings too |
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| 14:36:54 | FromGitter | <alehander42> @narimiran i've added some comments in the examples, but I guess I should sit down and right some more obvious examples later |
| 14:38:38 | FromGitter | <alehander42> @krux02 btw I wondered about the if guard: for now I use `pattern and condition` as that's not ambigious in my dsl (instead of `pattern if condition`) |
| 14:38:54 | FromGitter | <alehander42> is there a plan to add support for this kind of if to the parser |
| 14:41:06 | FromGitter | <mratsim> i.e. lots of people coming from ruby are asking this |
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| 15:07:27 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> Which modules can be imported in nimscripts? |
| 15:08:01 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> The doc says that: ⏎ ⏎ > However, at least the following modules are available: ⏎ ⏎ > strutils ... [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5ba8fdd1b4990c30ee00e846] |
| 15:08:15 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> But actually macros can be imported too (at least on devel) |
| 15:08:34 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> are there other importable modules that should be listed there? |
| 15:09:03 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> quoted above from https://nim-lang.org/docs/nims.html |
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| 15:23:37 | enthus1ast | afaik modules which do importc are not available |
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| 15:27:26 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> hmm, ok. Need to find out that list programmatically then |
| 15:27:47 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> Just thought that macros was a bit too important to be left out from that list |
| 15:27:54 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> So I just submitted a tiny PR for that |
| 15:30:59 | FromGitter | <citycide> @alehander42 gara looks great so far, well done |
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| 15:50:33 | FromGitter | <mratsim> @kaushalmodi I think GULPF has a PR to allow more modules in NimScript, it was pretty details iirc |
| 15:57:47 | enthus1ast | i don't understand the use case of gara, why is this superior to case/if? |
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| 16:06:57 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> less verbosity - captures, etc... |
| 16:07:10 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I think pattern matching has proved useful as a number of languages feature it |
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| 16:25:00 | FromGitter | <iffy> Any built-in way to parse URL query strings (into a tuple, for instance)? |
| 16:25:25 | FromGitter | <mratsim> use strscans: https://nim-lang.org/docs/strscans.html |
| 16:25:35 | enthus1ast | jester has a query parser |
| 16:26:38 | enthus1ast | https://github.com/dom96/jester/blob/master/jester/private/utils.nim#L23 |
| 16:26:38 | FromGitter | <mratsim> there is this too apparently, never used it (and I’m not a Nim net specialist): https://nim-lang.org/docs/uri.html#parseUri,string,Uri |
| 16:27:21 | enthus1ast | afaik uri has no query parser yet |
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| 16:39:41 | FromGitter | <tim-st> `parseUri` raises on input `%` so needs try except |
| 16:43:55 | FromGitter | <iffy> @mratsim Does strscans handle repeating patterns? |
| 16:44:55 | FromGitter | <iffy> oh, I just need to keep reading to the /etc/passwd example, I think |
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| 17:01:07 | FromGitter | <iffy> woah, I can write grammars like that!? That is cool |
| 17:03:17 | FromGitter | <alehander42> @citycide thank you, if you have any features you want to see, please let me know |
| 17:04:23 | FromGitter | <dm1try> @iffy stdlib has `cgi` module ⏎ ⏎ ```import cgi ⏎ for key, value in "key=value&key2=value2".decode_data: ⏎ echo key, value``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5ba919177dca3065034ad4ad] |
| 17:05:45 | FromGitter | <iffy> oh, that's much easier (though I'm glad I know about strscans now) |
| 17:06:09 | enthus1ast | dmltry thank you did not know |
| 17:11:53 | enthus1ast | thats even better than the jester parser cause its perfectly legal to have a key multiple times |
| 17:18:00 | FromGitter | <bung87> I finally found seq assign and clear table is most slow parts in my program. |
| 17:20:12 | miran | anybody here to take a look at one simple macro and see if this could be done better? |
| 17:21:20 | FromGitter | <alehander42> yep |
| 17:22:25 | miran | i've tried to see if i could do this: https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/4224 with macros. here is my solution: http://ix.io/1nru/ |
| 17:23:46 | miran | my questions: should macros be used for stuff like this, or are templates good enough (or better) solution? |
| 17:31:50 | FromGitter | <dm1try> miran maybe `quote` can be used instead of building ast manually in this case |
| 17:32:55 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> How do you set define switch in config.nims? |
| 17:33:05 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> `switch("define", "foo")` does not work |
| 17:33:58 | miran | @dm1try oh, i always forget there exists `quote`! |
| 17:36:27 | miran | but this was built with the help of `dumpAstGen`, so it was not manually, but semi-automatically :) |
| 17:39:35 | FromGitter | <dm1try> got it =) |
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| 17:46:07 | FromGitter | <Clyybber> @Araq @TheLemonMan I think we forgot to close this: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/6434 ? |
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| 17:53:02 | FromGitter | <Clyybber> Thx LemonMan |
| 17:53:47 | FromGitter | <Clyybber> Oh wait... you closed this 2 hours ago? |
| 17:54:11 | FromGitter | <Clyybber> Github doesn't seem to update its issue status very often... |
| 17:54:12 | FromGitter | <Clyybber> wierd |
| 17:54:13 | miran | @dm1try: using `quote` feels like cheating! "if `a`: `b` else: `c`" :) |
| 17:57:26 | FromGitter | <alehander42> @narimiran well basically if you can do it with a template, do it, otherwise use a macro, but yeah, use `quote` a lot |
| 17:58:56 | miran | @alehander42 thanks! does the macro solve the template problem mentioned in that forum thread ("both statements are evaluated regardless of the condition")? |
| 18:00:38 | FromGitter | <dm1try> miran, yep) simple things should be simple. actually I like the sugar that you proposed more than any solution in the related thread :) |
| 18:01:19 | miran | thanks @dmitry! i might post it on the forum then :) |
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| 18:03:56 | FromGitter | <arnetheduck> with the new non-nil strings and seq, is there even a point calling `newSeq` and friends on a variable? |
| 18:04:26 | miran | i think i can answer my own question. false branch is not executed. i've tried with having two functions which have echo inside of them (only the true-branch one did echo) |
| 18:05:13 | miran | @arnetheduck maybe just to provide the length? (instead of the default zero) |
| 18:05:23 | FromGitter | <Clyybber> Yeah I thought so too |
| 18:05:30 | FromGitter | <Clyybber> but then one could also use setLen |
| 18:05:49 | FromGitter | <alehander42> @Araq do you think it would make sense to have something like typesection macros similar to the forloop ones: basically with the ability to inject some code in the type section and after the type section |
| 18:06:14 | FromGitter | <Clyybber> @arnetheduck Maybe to have control over when the seq actually gets initalized. So to fine tune performance possibly? |
| 18:06:15 | FromGitter | <alehander42> i was wondering if there is a way to transform patty's variant macro |
| 18:06:23 | FromGitter | <alehander42> in a way that you can use it inside a type section |
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| 18:16:43 | FromGitter | <arnetheduck> @Clyybber no different from setLen |
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| 18:44:05 | FromGitter | <vivekimsit> how to represent very large number? |
| 18:45:02 | FromGitter | <vivekimsit> example: https://github.com/sindresorhus/pretty-bytes/blob/master/test.js#L24 |
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| 19:06:59 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> anyone hiring Nim programmers? :P |
| 19:07:23 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> @zacharycarter Willing to take $0? |
| 19:08:04 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> haha - if it includes free food & lodging - sure :P |
| 19:09:49 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> I can move some stuff out my Mom's garage. She always parks in the driveway... |
| 19:10:05 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> This is looking to be a quality job offering :thinking: |
| 19:15:50 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> lol |
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| 19:32:11 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> The arguments for not using Nim were - this doesn't feel like a "Nim" project it feels more like a "TypeScript" project |
| 19:32:11 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and |
| 19:32:21 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> "Someone else would have to learn Nim to work on this project." |
| 19:32:26 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> but they won't have to learn TypeScript |
| 19:32:33 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and our team is literally two developers |
| 19:32:36 | FromGitter | <Clyybber> fucking typescript |
| 19:32:39 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> fucking carfax |
| 19:32:50 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> can't find a new job fast enough |
| 19:33:03 | FromGitter | <Clyybber> haha good luck |
| 19:33:32 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> it's bullshit - I was the first one to talk about frontend MVC (angular 1 at work), I was the first person to talk about bower / grunt / gulp - I was the first one to introduce golang and kubernetes to our teams |
| 19:33:46 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and I got to work on ZERO of these technologies - even though we have used / presently use every one of them |
| 19:34:09 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> so I'm sure Nim will explode here in a few months, and I won't be working on any projects that are using it |
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| 19:41:48 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> @zacharycarter RIP |
| 19:42:02 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> I would use TypeScript over Nim for networking any day of the week though. |
| 19:42:41 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Nim has performance benefits but it's also unstable. It's not like it's unusable; I use Nim every day. I just wouldn't make a web backend out of it until 1.0 |
| 19:42:53 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> As soon as Nim hits 1.0, Nim > Typescript |
| 19:42:54 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> this is a web frontend |
| 19:43:04 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> `nim js`? |
| 19:43:06 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> yup |
| 19:43:24 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> You sound like TypeScript beat you up when you were a child |
| 19:43:45 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> Well - I'm not a fan of the OOP rigidness TS introduces |
| 19:43:59 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> also - I'd rather program in Nim and build something that can add to the Nim ecosystem |
| 19:44:03 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> You just wanted to make a website but Daddy TS came in with his belt in his hands, making a smacking noise... |
| 19:44:04 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> rather than just build another typescript project |
| 19:44:06 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> which I've done 100x |
| 19:44:12 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Jokes aside, I don't like the idea of Nim JS |
| 19:44:12 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> pretty uch |
| 19:44:18 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> why not? |
| 19:44:26 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> It loses the performance benefits |
| 19:44:36 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> yeah - but I mean vs what? |
| 19:44:46 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> it's not like TypeScript is going to outperform Nim's JS targe4t |
| 19:44:48 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Nim isn't at 1.0 and I don't trust the generated JS to be as good as the generated C |
| 19:44:50 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> target* |
| 19:44:58 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> ah - well that's a fair criticism I think |
| 19:45:00 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Not performance wise ofc; intent wise |
| 19:45:03 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> right |
| 19:45:20 | kungtotte | I don't think anybody in JS-land should be talking about things being unstable or a moving target :P |
| 19:45:27 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> I feel like Nim is designed to be C/C++, but because it supports backends, JS became a thing, but I honestly have concerns over the quality of the generated JS |
| 19:45:33 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> well - I've had fairly good luck with it, and I'd rather use Nim everywhere at work vs the six plus othe rlanguages that we have on our plate atm |
| 19:45:53 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> kungtotte: NPM makes sure you get the proper version; I don't think the concern is that your code will break but rather no one will use it. |
| 19:46:01 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> especially when my co-worker barely understands the concept of type safety |
| 19:46:06 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> *NPM being relevant for the Node community. |
| 19:46:10 | Araq | the JS performance is good and the move semantics are implemented as an AST to AST transformation |
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| 19:46:24 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> JS between versions is pretty stable. The issue is libs die every single week. |
| 19:46:29 | Araq | so the JS backend will benefit from these too without any special patches |
| 19:46:32 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Araq Thanks for the reassurance. |
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| 19:46:46 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Have you guys heard of Deno? |
| 19:46:50 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> nope |
| 19:47:01 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> One of the original NodeJS guys is redoing it with TypeScript |
| 19:47:18 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> No NPM; no guarantees on compatibility; 'better' JS engine; TS only... |
| 19:47:19 | Araq | that said, Karax's "kstring" abstraction is essential for good JS/native performance |
| 19:47:19 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> heh |
| 19:47:26 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> *compatibility with Node. |
| 19:47:35 | Araq | so learn from Karax :P |
| 19:48:30 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> https://github.com/mozilla/sccache |
| 19:49:33 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> @zacharycarter Your team will stop using other languages if the languages die off. |
| 19:49:45 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Just DDoS every site behind every language they're already using. |
| 19:49:51 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> :P |
| 19:50:06 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> See how good Go is when you can't access the official site, package managers, GitHub projects, or... STACK OVERFLOW GO |
| 19:50:27 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> Most of my co-workers program in Java / Spring Boot |
| 19:50:32 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and think it's the holy grail |
| 19:50:36 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> God damn why |
| 19:50:44 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> because I work in a hell hole |
| 19:51:01 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Work for me |
| 19:51:03 | kungtotte | Could always be worse. You could all be writing Perl. |
| 19:51:22 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> It's not a hell hole. It's an UNPAID hell hole. Big difference |
| 19:51:26 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> lol |
| 19:51:34 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I could just quit carfax and then show up to work every day |
| 19:51:37 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and have the same reality |
| 19:51:47 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and not move to Texas :P |
| 19:52:04 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> anyway - I'm going to go home and lament my job situation / look for a new one - be back online in a bit |
| 19:52:10 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Cya |
| 19:53:04 | FromGitter | <vivekimsit> I think my message got lost :) |
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| 19:55:56 | FromGitter | <vivekimsit> I am trying to `nimble publish` |
| 19:56:12 | FromGitter | <vivekimsit> but getting the following error: ⏎ ⏎ `Error: unhandled exception: Connection was closed before full request has been made [ProtocolError]` |
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| 20:37:12 | planetis[m] | hi? |
| 20:37:38 | planetis[m] | nice works |
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| 20:39:51 | FromGitter | <codenoid> good noon all |
| 20:39:51 | FromGitter | <codenoid> ✨ |
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| 20:40:54 | FromGitter | <vivekimsit> hi |
| 20:41:07 | planetis[m] | sup i made a interface macro |
| 20:44:18 | FromGitter | <abijahm> hello people i cannot create a simpler example but in the following example ⏎ calling close on line 40 it calls the close on line 81 which takes no parameters the problem disappears when i remove the exportc pragma ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5ba94ca2cdc50131724996be] |
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| 21:01:45 | FromGitter | <dm1try> @abijahm so simplified example will be: ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5ba950b9fe37781110f09742] |
| 21:02:15 | FromGitter | <dm1try> take a look on nim opened issues or fire another one =) |
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| 21:52:34 | cavariux | has there been any manuals/tutorials on how to manualy manage memory without gc in nim? |
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| 21:56:52 | AlexMax | cavariux: What do you want to know? |
| 21:58:00 | cavariux | AlexMax mostly if it's safe to use the stl with gc turned off and if I need to clean any of standard types |
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| 21:59:26 | AlexMax | I don't think you can 'clean up' after nim |
| 22:00:20 | Araq | stl with gc turned off works, but what works better is --gc:regions (documentation pending though) |
| 22:00:54 | AlexMax | nim does give you alloc, realloc and dealloc, but I wouldn't use those to touch anything nim, only when you're messing with imported C stuff |
| 22:01:52 | AlexMax | Nim has a nice document that describes how the GC works |
| 22:01:55 | AlexMax | https://nim-lang.org/docs/gc.html |
| 22:02:20 | Araq | AlexMax, yeah but since then we've got more options... |
| 22:02:35 | cavariux | oh, thanks AlexMax and Araq will check the doc and try to see what regions is |
| 22:02:48 | AlexMax | If anything I say conflicts with what Araq says, ignore me, because Araq is the lead developer of the language :P |
| 22:03:04 | AlexMax | And he'd know better than me |
| 22:03:17 | Araq | and thread local heaps, threads with GC safety effect and regions work really well |
| 22:03:33 | Araq | sadly, it's all a secret... :-/ |
| 22:04:02 | cavariux | what do you mean with secret haha? |
| 22:04:37 | Araq | I never wrote about it and it turned out these features combined are a superpower |
| 22:05:50 | cavariux | tbh I don't understand gc because I have always worked with c/c++ but could I trust nim in efficiency and safety with regions enabled? |
| 22:07:28 | Araq | huh, tough question, yes if you adhere to a few simple rules |
| 22:08:30 | Araq | and the rules cover "don't run out of memory" moreso than "don't crash" |
| 22:11:22 | cavariux | okay thanks Araq |
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| 22:13:16 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I guess the positive news out of all this bs at work is - I get to publish the port of hyperHTML / the ES2015/6 DSL I'm working on, under my own github and not carfax's org |
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| 22:43:03 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> they will regret |
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| 22:51:15 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> https://github.com/zacharycarter/litz |
| 22:51:27 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> please don't try to compile / work on this yet - it's just me putting up the repo |
| 22:51:38 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> it's still heavily WIP and needs a README reflecting so |
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| 22:56:06 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> https://github.com/zacharycarter/nes |
| 22:56:08 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> as well |
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| 23:02:44 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> @kaushalmodi thank you! |
| 23:03:14 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> <3 - very greatly appreciated |
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| 23:05:19 | FromGitter | <kaushalmodi> No problem! I'm just spreading the word, your work. I see that you're very passionate about programming. I hope that someone from my followers takes a peek at your code, and give you a ping. |
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| 23:09:18 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> :) I really appreciate it - hopefully in the future I can pay it forward to you or another Nim community member |
| 23:12:05 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> Brian Ketelsen retweeting your tweets also really helps out :P |
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| 23:29:27 | skellock | so, that blog post i wrote the on friday had 31,000 views over the weekend. crazytown. |
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| 23:30:26 | skellock | and 0 death threats. |
| 23:32:42 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> good news all around! |
| 23:32:54 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I'm always behind zero death threats |
| 23:33:57 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> this is why I get myself in trouble at work - ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5ba97465eba8e60bc63d5693] |
| 23:34:02 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> but seriously - what am I supposed to say? |
| 23:34:14 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> my manager just effed me in the A and I'm going to take it silently? |
| 23:40:57 | FromGitter | <gogolxdong> fire you manager. |
| 23:42:51 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I think my entire organization needs a refresh |
| 23:43:15 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> basically they're telling me - in not so many words - that my six years of experience / knowledge gained from working there is less valuable than new hires they can potentially recruit |
| 23:45:18 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> I'm internalizing it thusly - I mean, if they prefer candidates / employees who don't understand what type-safety is, what a pointer is, how to gain performance benefits from native code - then fine, they can dwell in their own mediocrity in terms of producing good software. |
| 23:45:42 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> not that I produce anything better - but I feel like I have ideas and values that are constantly dismissed because they require actual change and thinking about improvement |
| 23:48:26 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> like the fact that all of carfax's service to service communication is still carried out over HTTP / JSON |
| 23:48:35 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> this is backend services talking to other backend services |
| 23:48:45 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> and then they will spend 3+ months optimizing a react frontend |
| 23:48:49 | FromGitter | <zacharycarter> just totally clueless |
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| 23:57:42 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Wtf |
| 23:57:49 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> HTTP/JSON backend services? |