<< 24-10-2017 >>

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00:09:25	FromGitter	<watzon> (https://files.gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim/1QK1/image.png)
00:09:44	FromGitter	<watzon> What is this madness? The js compiler is also a php compiler?
00:11:51	GitDisc	<GooRoo> JS and PHP, best languages ever…
00:12:08	GitDisc	<GooRoo> especially in combination
00:28:35	FromGitter	<watzon> Lol for real 
00:29:17	watzon	What's the best way to make an http request to a JSON api in nim?
00:29:27	watzon	Any good libraries?
00:32:21	SunDwarf	pipe httpclient into jsondecode
00:35:15	FromGitter	<Yardanico> watzon: stdlib is your best friend
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00:55:29	skrylar	libcurl is nice for such things
01:53:38	skrylar	wonder if there would be any point to dbase support in nim
01:57:07	FromGitter	<qqtop> dbase no , firebird yes
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02:01:54	user3382	if i wanted to write my own language more as an exercise in semantics and logic flow than a truly seperate language, would nim be ideal for this?
02:02:45	GitDisc	<GooRoo> dbase no, firebird no, influx yes
02:03:07	GitDisc	<GooRoo> @user3382, just use MPS, dude
02:03:59	user3382	thats a dsl on java thou?
02:04:10	user3382	what if i want to redefine how c++ works to make it legible and straightfoward to use
02:05:02	GitDisc	<GooRoo> like for example?
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02:15:56	user3382	like nim does but more
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02:25:38	GitDisc	<GooRoo> I believe that Nim is good enough for this. However to be more precise you'd better give us more details
02:26:00	GitDisc	<GooRoo> Have you already filled this checklist?  http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html
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02:40:49	FromGitter	<gogolxdong> Is there anything like py2nim?
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03:01:18	FromGitter	<Varriount> user3382: Making a programming language is a non-trivial project.
03:01:25	FromGitter	<Varriount> Especially if it's compiled.
03:02:02	FromGitter	<Varriount> You need a tokenizer/parser, abstract syntax tree, semantic checker, and backend emitter at the very least.
03:02:43	FromGitter	<Varriount> For compiled languages, you need details about the architecture that you're targeting too.
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03:34:51	AlexMax	https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/3254/2
03:35:22	AlexMax	I think I know the answer to this, but why a no-GC runtime slower overall?
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06:08:59	skrylar	AlexMax, because GCs are faster (short version) than manual alloc
06:09:50	skrylar	longer version: depends on the GC, and the application, but the cost of memory fiddling can be amortized in to time your program is idle anyway, whereas auto refcounters are paying that cost 100% of the time
06:10:12	skrylar	like if you are waiting on IO, you can do some collection cycles instead of just doing nothing
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06:44:32	FromGitter	<mratsim> @user3382 check what @gokr did with is own lang written in Nim: http://goran.krampe.se/2016/08/26/benchmarking-spry-vs-squeak/
06:45:39	FromGitter	<gokr> Might be easier to start at http://www.sprylang.org
06:46:24	FromGitter	<gokr> And my articles on the journey so far: http://goran.krampe.se/category/spry/
06:47:12	gokr	Oh, he is not around anymore
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07:07:47	PMunch	Nice talk subsetpark :)
07:09:17	GitDisc	<GooRoo> Could you, guys, please share a link to the talk. I missed it somehow.
07:11:25	miran	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVgNVJdizHg
07:11:45	GitDisc	<GooRoo> Thanks
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07:20:40	Arrrr	Ah, i see this link on reddit
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07:42:29	FromGitter	<alehander42> @mratsim unittest works fine with js for me too
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07:51:39	hogeland	okay time to stop getting spammed by gitter and instead idle in irc
07:54:53	FromGitter	<mratsim> Just deactivate gitter notifications except on mentions
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08:24:39	floppydh	can I import modules from a libraries private dir?
08:24:41	floppydh	outside of it
08:24:52	FromGitter	<mratsim> I don't know if @johnnovak is hanging there but very interesting piece on game rendering HDR, contrast, Tone mapping, https://ventspace.wordpress.com/2017/10/20/games-look-bad-part-1-hdr-and-tone-mapping/
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08:25:13	FromGitter	<mratsim> @floppydh, with the path
08:25:34	floppydh	mratsim so like somelib.private ?
08:26:07	floppydh	mratsim ah got it like this somelib/private/...
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08:31:49	*	skrylar reads over said article anyway
08:33:01	skrylar	I don't know really.
08:33:42	skrylar	Innovation happens on the small scale, and the small scale doesn't have access to the "training" he keeps going on about
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08:36:21	skrylar	i know there are also some oddities in that artists really prefer stuff to look like it does in their editors, and it can be hard/impossible to change the way your modeler grades the viewport
08:37:31	skrylar	that issue doesn't exist in VFX tools, since ex. Nuke/Natron will just let you dump a grading node in place
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08:58:16	gokr	Just published one of those "here's how to get cracking with Nim" blog post, for fun. Anyone want to proof-run through it?
08:58:45	gokr	I should put in some fun memes too - but don't have time right now ;)
08:58:55	gokr	http://goran.krampe.se/2017/10/24/nim-crash-course-inside-lxc/
09:08:19	PMunch	"but much more lightweight similar to Docker." maybe a comma after "lightweight"?
09:08:41	PMunch	"Contrary to Docker thoigh", assume you meant "though"
09:08:58	miran	"I should put in some fun memes too" - nah, you're fine without it
09:09:15	miran	and i say that before reading a word from the link
09:09:40	PMunch	miran, haha agreed
09:10:28	PMunch	I get the need to put in some images or something that can break the monotomy of pure text (my own posts are pretty bad at this, very wall-of-texty)
09:10:51	PMunch	But it's so strange when it's just images trying to express some reaction
09:11:25	PMunch	It is a bit hard though writing about computer languages or programming in general and find related images..
09:11:40	PMunch	Seing how most of it is just text based anyways..
09:12:25	miran	you (general you) can break a pure text with section names and stuff like that (more text to break text monotony :))
09:13:06	PMunch	True, but that requires that you actually change subject
09:13:27	miran	just scrolled through the link and - text is already nicely broke into parts. really no need for memes
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09:14:07	PMunch	Yeah, I was talking more in-general
09:14:25	PMunch	Take an example from my site for example: https://peterme.net/cross-platform-guis-and-nim-macros.html
09:14:50	PMunch	Text galore..
09:15:31	miran	well, you have section names. without them, this would be impossible to read
09:16:14	PMunch	Yeah, fair enough
09:16:45	miran	and this probably looks like lots of text because of large font size (which is much better than small font size which might look like less text)
09:17:03	PMunch	Yeah, it was even larger before but I tuned it down a bit
09:17:26	PMunch	I feel this is a good compromise
09:17:59	miran	i prefer large text. on typical sites/blogs i need to zoom in to read comfortably, not the case with your blog
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09:22:28	miran	gokr: "I am not going to explain the code" - maybe you could explain it just a bit for the beginners, for example: what is `discard`, why you use `result` variable (without `var`), etc.
09:23:02	gokr	Ok, back, cool - I will scan all you wrote here
09:23:58	PMunch	miran, yeah readability was a large focus for my site. Limiting the width of the text, giving it maximum vertical size by moving the bar to the side, giving you the option to collapse the bar to remove distractions, choosing a font that is known for being nice to read (LaTeX default font) etc.
09:24:34	ibutra	I must admit I don't quite understand why you put the LXC in there. Does it help undestand somethin?
09:24:48	ibutra	In addition the nimble install will install into the path of the LXC or not?
09:24:51	miran	PMunch: Computer Modern (LaTeX default font) is nice, but there are better (more readable) fonts, IMO
09:25:16	ibutra	that could be a little counterintuitive for beginners
09:26:00	PMunch	miran, sure. But the LaTeX default was an easy way to go
09:26:14	PMunch	Plus I really like it personally :)
09:26:43	miran	PMunch: like many many users of LaTeX :)
09:27:40	miran	btw, i use Palatino when writing in LaTeX, and Merriweather as my serif font in browser's reader mode
09:27:58	PMunch	Oooh, I'll be sure to check those out
09:28:06	PMunch	Always on the lookout for good fonts :)
09:28:21	PMunch	But now I'm off for lunch
09:28:28	gokr	ibutra: I agree, the LXC was just because... I experimented with it ;)
09:28:48	FromGitter	<mratsim> I have a font collection, in Latex I'm fond of Fontin, Fontin Sans, Audimat and Delicious
09:28:59	miran	PMunch: take my advice - don't go on the lookout for good fonts - this is a road without end. it's disastrous!
09:29:09	gokr	ibutra: The whole rest of the article is done inside the LXC container. It's like a VM.
09:30:11	FromGitter	<mratsim> @gokr, I'm even further than you, I'm using Nim in LXC running GPU code from the container
09:30:46	FromGitter	<gokr> :)
09:30:56	ibutra	I get that experimenting thing. But I imagine some beginner scratching his head why his program isn't working in his normal environment. Maybe a small addition in the end that it is installed inside the container and added to its path would help?
09:31:43	FromGitter	<gokr> Yeah, sure. And also, one of the ideas of doing the whole excercise inside a fresh LXC - was for avoiding inconsistencies.
09:31:57	FromGitter	<mratsim> https://andre-ratsimbazafy.com/cuda-gpu-passthrough-to-a-lxc-container/
09:54:06	Arrrr	I need a way to provide a default value to untyped in a template. Is such a thing possible?
09:57:49	PMunch	Haha miran I know. The trick is to not go looking, but note down the ones you like so you have them for later ;)
09:58:27	miran	good luck with that :)
09:58:54	PMunch	miran, just had to find a good small caps font though. That was quite a project..
09:59:24	miran	btw, to me - Computer Modern is a font that looks good on the paper and with small size on the screen. for larger sizes (like on your blog), i would look for another font :)
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10:06:53	watzon	What's the easiest way to write to a new file in nim?
10:07:06	watzon	Someone told me the other day, but I forgot
10:07:15	watzon	It was one command
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10:08:06	FromGitter	<ephja> writeFile(filename, content: string)
10:08:15	FromGitter	<mratsim> @Arrrr can't you use var default: type(your_untyped_input) ?
10:08:42	watzon	ephja that's it!
10:11:08	watzon	How about checking for the existence of a file?
10:13:10	FromGitter	<gokr> https://nim-lang.org/docs/theindex.html#fileExists
10:13:19	FromGitter	<gokr> The index is your friend.
10:14:06	dom96	Kinda sucks a bit that the devs of Starbound decided to use Rust for their next game, but let's see what comes of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/78bowa/hey_this_is_kyren_from_chucklefish_we_make_and/dot8gr2/
10:14:34	Arrrr	no, the issue is that arg: untyped = DefaultVal doesn't work
10:14:36	FromGitter	<ephja> https://nim-lang.org/docs/system.html
10:14:59	federico3	http://pyvideo.org/pygotham-2017/nim-a-new-option-for-optimizing-inner-loops.html
10:15:04	Arrrr	for example, default could be (discard 0)
10:17:19	floppydh	so I just realized I don't get includes, if I include foo that includes bar I can't see the symbols of bar unless they're exported?
10:17:54	Arrrr	In theory, if a includes b a b includes c, a should be able to see c
10:18:02	floppydh	in theory
10:19:04	PMunch	dom96, it would be amazing if they did it in Nim instead
10:19:09	Arrrr	If that doesn't work, you can always include both b and c from a
10:19:12	dom96	floppydh: why are you using includes in the first place?
10:19:23	dom96	an include is essentially copy and pasting the file into where the include is
10:19:24	floppydh	dom96: I try to access nonexported stuff from nigui
10:19:34	dom96	floppydh: why?
10:19:40	floppydh	dom96: because it wraps some nice windows stuff
10:20:02	Arrrr	Report it as a bug and see what araq has to say
10:20:18	floppydh	note that a doesn't include at the top, it defines some stuff, then includes, defines other stuff and includes something else, so I'd basically have to copy a
10:20:36	floppydh	well I guess I'll just copy paste it out of there for now
10:20:43	dom96	floppydh: in that case it may be worth submitting a PR to expose it
10:21:05	PMunch	floppydh, grep "include .*" nimui.nim
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10:21:20	floppydh	PMunch: thats not the issue, a defines stuff that the include relies upon
10:21:43	floppydh	dom96: I guess that would be the right thing
10:22:00	floppydh	thanks everyone tho
10:25:31	watzon	Question about the posix `mkdir` proc. What is the mode exactly? `mkdir(a1: cstring; a2: Mode): cint`
10:25:50	watzon	It's of type `cint`, but there's no documentation as to what int means what
10:27:47	dom96	http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/mkdir.html
10:28:02	dom96	Why are you using it directly?
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10:29:21	watzon	dom96: Is there a better way?
10:29:34	dom96	os.createDir
10:29:55	floppydh	okay its all fine, as I suspected, it was a mistake on my part, include works fine
10:30:14	dom96	also, welcome to you both watzon and floppydh :)
10:30:45	watzon	dom96: Oh I've been here for a while haha. Just came back though after a long break, so thanks :)
10:30:48	floppydh	dom96: oh thank ya, I'm a lurker tho with different names I've been welcomed before
10:30:53	floppydh	hah watzon
10:31:42	floppydh	the move-pointer-less stuff Araq did a cast on looked really lovely, you guys are doing a great job
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11:03:44	Viktor_	Do you guys expect Nim adoption to explode after 1.0 release? It has everything to going for it, great performance, great productivity, wide array of usage possibilities (system, embedded, web server etc.).
11:04:56	Calinou	I don't think so, Rust adoption didn't explode after 1.0 either
11:05:05	Calinou	it's getting slowly and surely popular
11:05:17	Calinou	(I've seen a job offer from my university, asking for a C++ and Rust programmer. However, they pay like crap)
11:05:26	Calinou	(good old "If you ask for a Superman, all you'll get is a Deadpool")
11:06:23	PMunch	Viktor_, I think one of the things that's holding it back is the lack of common packages. AWS is for some reason mentioned very often for example
11:06:51	PMunch	But it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. If there are no libraries you don't get users, but without users you don't get libraries.
11:08:42	floppydh	I enjoy nim being more on the experimental side, I love seeing new stuff put in, be it language features etc. without actually having to be shoe-horned into the whol thing for a big project, so I'm really just fine with how it is :3
11:09:14	crem	Yes, hopefully nim will never be 1.0 :)
11:09:43	crem	I know it will, but still hope..
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11:10:59	Araq	I'd throw away the version number at this point and release Nim 2017
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11:12:06	crem	After 1.0 there's no really easy way to do breaking changes. I remember people disappointment when D v2.0 was released.
11:12:17	federico3	how about freezing the spec in 2.0 instead?
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11:12:43	Viktor_	federico3 then there is not much point calling it 1.0
11:14:02	federico3	Viktor_: it sends a message. A large number of features can be frozen in 1.0, just not everything.
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11:16:56	miran	federico3: and then be prepared for users' hate when 2.0 breaks some things
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11:18:10	FromGitter	<krux02> federico3: is there a language spec of Nim?
11:18:28	federico3	miran: not if the freeze is very clerly spelled out
11:18:31	crem	I like rolling updates more than annual releases!
11:18:50	FromGitter	<krux02> always break it a little bit
11:19:05	crem	yes
11:19:14	crem	That keeps developers alert.
11:19:32	crem	And they constantly keep context of what's happenning in the code.
11:19:49	crem	Otherwise it's easy to forget what you wrote.
11:19:49	FromGitter	<krux02> well nothing is for free
11:19:58	Araq	krux02: yeah, that's exactly what we need to stop doing
11:20:15	FromGitter	<krux02> when the language can change at any time, people do not want to have huge codebases, because small changes can cause big problems
11:21:09	FromGitter	<krux02> Araq: there are minor things in Nim, where I see breaking changes inevitable.
11:21:22	Araq	list them
11:21:32	FromGitter	<krux02> you know them
11:21:42	Araq	I don't know if I know them all
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11:21:56	FromGitter	<krux02> int and int64 are different type, float and float64 are identical
11:22:26	Araq	int as a builtin type has its advantages though
11:22:29	FromGitter	<krux02> and ``mySeq.isNil`` should be derecated and always return false
11:22:58	Araq	tried that in a branch, causes weird crashes
11:22:58	FromGitter	<krux02> well but it is kind of weird when I write functions for different types
11:24:08	FromGitter	<krux02> and then ``proc f(arg: float32) `` and ``proc f(arg: float64)`` is enough to support all floating point types, but for integers I have to also support ``int``
11:24:30	FromGitter	<krux02> it happened to me when writing a wrapper
11:24:50	FromGitter	<krux02> I tried it, too
11:25:05	FromGitter	<krux02> as you said, weird crashes
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11:26:12	FromGitter	<krux02> it would also be nice, when you could see that int is just an alias for either int32 or int64 depending onthe architecture
11:26:17	miran	just x-posted the video about optimizing inner loops to /r/python - they might be more interested than the general /r/programming public
11:26:30	FromGitter	<krux02> I mean if you could see that in the system module
11:26:59	FromGitter	<krux02> when [[is64bitArchitecture]]: type int = int64 ...
11:27:20	dom96	krux02: maybe you could just `SomeNumber` instead?
11:27:40	dom96	as for seeing what 'int' actually is, that's a docgen feature
11:27:43	FromGitter	<krux02> no, that doesn't solve the problem
11:27:44	Araq	krux02: these things must not block v1 anymore, they take months to correct
11:27:45	dom96	that I have had planned for a while
11:28:06	Araq	there will be a version 2 anyway which will be closer to perfection
11:28:14	dom96	Me and Araq are probably gonna do a livestream discussing v1 at some point
11:28:29	Araq	the point of a v1 is to say "ok, you can use it now and
11:28:36	Araq	**fixes will be backported**
11:28:46	Arrrr	How is that closer to perfection if you kill GC
11:29:38	Araq	Arrrr, that's a whole different discussion and "ref got more expensive but supports threading now" is not killing the GC anyway
11:30:42	Araq	it's just a GC that works with destructors properly then
11:31:10	PMunch	Is there a better way to load a dynamic library and give it access to your procedures than to pass them all in a setup call?
11:31:52	dom96	GC won't be killed before v1
11:32:24	Arrrr	How can i do sensitive work with var seqs if everything works inside a try catch?. The trolling about GC being slow is going to be a trifle in comparison to this
11:32:52	Araq	I don't understand you.
11:33:05	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> Hi, I have a little problem, I have this code that does not compile, but I'm not sure if it is a bug or not : https://play.nim-lang.org/?gist=7bba38b15f29e20ac6412fd65c0f119a
11:33:17	FromGitter	<krux02> dom96: http://ix.io/BIr
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11:34:24	GitDisc	<GooRoo> is there any public roadmap available?
11:34:33	PMunch	For reference this is what I do now: https://pastebin.com/xMUr8Qnc https://pastebin.com/acK0dAXS which works fine for a couple procs. But this is about 80+ procs, some with just different signatures which would have to be wrapped in a template or something..
11:34:48	dom96	I hope I get an answer on reddit though. I'm curious if that developer considered using a real-time GC
11:35:06	dom96	This has been how we've been "marketing" Nim's GC for forever.
11:35:10	dom96	Is it wrong?
11:35:39	Araq	let me say it again then:
11:36:10	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> somehow VecAll[T, 3] can not be instantiated, and sorry for coming in the middle of an ongoing conversation
11:36:12	Araq	there is nothing wrong with Nim's GC, especially not "omg, unpredicted pauses"
11:36:22	dom96	BigEpsilon: tough one, possibly a bug.
11:36:34	dom96	(or just a known limitation)
11:36:40	Araq	it's just that all GCs share certain problems
11:36:59	FromGitter	<krux02> dom96: the code I just sent you doesn't compile and I think that's a problem
11:36:59	Araq	which is interop with runtimes that use no/a different GC
11:37:21	Araq	as well as encouraging logical leaks
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11:37:59	dom96	krux02: cast to largest int type?
11:37:59	FromGitter	<krux02> because when I would add a workaround to make it compile, then actually making int an alias type would not compile with the workaround
11:38:04	Araq	and unclear ownership rules which makes code harder to multi thread and comprehend
11:39:18	Araq	Arrrr, the try is really cheap when compiling to C++ or LLVM.
11:39:51	FromGitter	<krux02> dom96: so you dismiss that calling the function with a 32 bit int argument might actually have importance?
11:39:57	dom96	Araq: Sadly most of Nim code is still compiled to C though
11:39:58	Arrrr	Well i hope that performance cost is not too high because not every software, at every function, needs interop with C or multithreads
11:40:27	Arrrr	but the change seems to affect everything
11:40:34	dom96	krux02: sorry, I really don't know. Just trying to guess a workaround for you.
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11:41:36	FromGitter	<krux02> dom96: I have a workaround, but I think it's ugly and the workaround would crash as soon as int64 and int become the same type
11:41:48	FromGitter	<krux02> therefore I would like to have this happer rather sooner than later
11:43:35	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> Thanks @dom96 ! If any one have a workaround I'll take it gladly : https://play.nim-lang.org/?gist=7bba38b15f29e20ac6412fd65c0f119a
11:44:10	Araq	bigepsilon: default parameters don't store the dependency to the 'T' here, just use an overload?
11:45:02	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> ok thanks Araq I'll try that
11:45:41	Araq	Arrrr, dom96 I know it's a pervasive change in the implementation, spec-wise it's mostly compatible with today's Nim
11:46:22	Araq	it's a tremendous amount of work which is why it's detached from Nim version 1
11:48:09	dom96	okay, maybe I need to read the blog post again
11:50:02	miran	let's bring in some new python crowd to nim - https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/78f2y9/nim_a_new_option_for_optimizing_inner_loops/
11:50:11	miran	upvote for visibility :)
11:50:30	dom96	upvoted :)
11:51:11	miran	dom96: and be prepared to answer nim-related questions, if there will be any :)
11:51:55	PMunch	Is something like this: https://stackoverflow.com/a/17099137 possible in Nim?
11:51:59	dom96	Araq: What's your plan with destructors for Nim v1?
11:52:01	PMunch	Or the answer above it for that matter
11:52:29	Arrrr	Everybody makes fun of "Rewrite in rust" evangelism, so beware of spamming nim links.
11:53:02	dom96	Posting such links isn't the same
11:53:29	Arrrr	i hope they think the same
11:54:08	miran	dom96: are you sure you didn't downvote? :D
11:54:14	Araq	dom96, I would like to get them stable as "opt-in", so you can write your own seqs and strings but the existing GC infrastructure/runtime stays as it is and doesn't use them
11:54:47	dom96	miran: Reddit fuzzes the score
11:55:03	dom96	But yes, I'm sure
11:55:13	miran	:)
11:55:17	dom96	Araq: Okay, but can we use them in the stdlib?
11:56:02	Araq	dom96, probably
11:56:13	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> I think my issue is related to https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/5595
11:56:28	dom96	Araq: Essentially I want to use it for `close`
11:57:34	arnetheduck	Yardanico, I am now
11:59:14	Yardanico	arnetheduck, I wanted to ask you about compiling/running nlvm
11:59:26	Yardanico	I've added -fpermissive to compile nim compiler successfully
11:59:30	Yardanico	but it fails at linker step
12:00:11	Yardanico	arnetheduck, https://gist.github.com/Yardanico/7422b7c80ae945387538b7ced59cc1aa
12:02:14	arnetheduck	what are you compiling with?
12:03:12	arnetheduck	and does /home/tiber/stuff/nlvm/nlvm/nimcache/wrapper.o exist?
12:03:21	arnetheduck	I've noticed nim forgets to compile it sometimes
12:03:38	Yardanico	arnetheduck, g++ versionb is 7.2.0
12:03:42	Yardanico	*version
12:03:57	Yardanico	arnetheduck, yeah, wrapper.o doesn't exist
12:04:27	dom96	try passing '-f' to Nim
12:04:58	arnetheduck	I usually do some trivial modification to llvm/wrapper.cc and then nim will recompile it
12:05:10	Yardanico	arnetheduck, ok
12:05:35	Yardanico	arnetheduck, ah, sorry
12:05:36	Araq	dom96, for files that requires working moves
12:05:37	Yardanico	wrapper.o is here
12:05:45	Yardanico	in nlvm/nlvm/nimcache/wrapper.o
12:06:13	Araq	or maybe not
12:06:58	arnetheduck	though clearly something is broken with the way nim detects if {.compile.} files need recompiling
12:08:41	Yardanico	arnetheduck, IDK really, wrapper.o is here
12:08:45	arnetheduck	anyway, the stuff you're getting linker errors for are in that file, not sure why they're not being picked up.. can try removing it
12:09:05	dom96	Araq: why would it require moves?
12:10:59	Yardanico	arnetheduck, even if I remove wrapper.o, so it's recompiled - linker still errors
12:12:41	Araq	dom96, let f = open(); s.add(f); # escapes, injected destroy(f) must be a nop
12:13:30	dom96	Araq: Indeed, I would expect destructors to handle this.
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12:13:49	dom96	this can happen for everything really
12:13:58	dom96	so if destructors fail at this then they're not working properly
12:14:51	arnetheduck	Yardanico, actually, now that I removed my old copy and rebuilt it, I'm getting errors to.. will have a look
12:16:28	Araq	dom96, you don't understand
12:17:55	Araq	the problem is that usually assignments for 'File' copy some handle/pointer, we need to overwrite assignment here so that either it's disallowed and only moves are allowed or that refcounts the usages in order to not close the file too early
12:19:07	FromGitter	<mratsim> @bigp
12:19:10	dom96	hrm
12:20:08	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> yes @mratsim :)
12:20:15	FromGitter	<mratsim> @BigEpsilon @dom96 maybe try to add a dummy static default parameter for https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/5595, it worked for me in https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/6343
12:20:52	FromGitter	<mratsim> it’s ugly but you gotta do what you gotta do :P
12:21:08	arnetheduck	bah, it worked with gcc 6.x, but not with 7.x
12:21:34	dom96	Araq: I thought File was just a file descriptor.
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12:22:12	dom96	So what can we do?
12:22:17	Yardanico	arnetheduck, well I can install gcc 6 for now
12:22:41	dom96	Is it too difficult, should we give up on using destructors in the stdlib for v1?
12:23:48	arnetheduck	Yardanico, looks like travis is broken too, it's something genuinely wrong that maybe worked because I had an old wrapper.o lying around
12:24:00	watzon	How do you cross compile for windows?
12:24:05	Yardanico	watzon, use mingw
12:24:40	watzon	From linux? I've never done that before haha
12:24:44	Yardanico	watzon, yes, from linux
12:24:50	Yardanico	install mingw using your package manager
12:24:54	Yardanico	and then use it instead of gcc :)
12:25:14	Yardanico	watzon, example config https://github.com/VKBots/Nickel/blob/fd1fe80931b0255fca5a23f12c0b2bfe3c6e5a6d/src/nim.cfg#L15 (don't look at comments)
12:25:20	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> @mratsim I think the problem here is different. In my case it seems that default arguments do not store enough information to instantiate their generic parameters
12:25:26	watzon	Ahh so you can't cross compile a windows executable from nim itself?
12:25:40	Yardanico	watzon, nim compiles to C++/C
12:25:52	Yardanico	you can still output C code for windows
12:25:56	Yardanico	and then compile C code under windows
12:25:59	Yardanico	but it's easier with mingw
12:26:02	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> same with dom96 issue
12:26:14	Yardanico	nim itself is a Nim2C compiler, not Nim2Binary
12:27:26	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> @mratsim , other example : https://play.nim-lang.org/?gist=7bba38b15f29e20ac6412fd65c0f119a
12:28:25	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> the workaround for my specific problem is use overloading insteed of default paramter as Araq suggested
12:30:42	Yardanico	arnetheduck, ah, fails with g++-6 too
12:36:05	arnetheduck	Yardanico, pushed a small fix, can you try make clean;make
12:37:25	Yardanico	arnetheduck, works!
12:37:32	Yardanico	with g++ 7 too
12:37:35	Yardanico	yay
12:38:05	arnetheduck	great - when do I get the first pull req? ;)
12:38:15	Yardanico	arnetheduck, xD
12:38:29	Araq	dom96, dunno, too early to decide on that
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12:39:20	dom96	Araq: If we want v1 by January then I don't think it is :)
12:39:44	Yardanico	dom96, so deadline for 1.0 is january?
12:41:01	dom96	It would certainly be nice :)
12:41:48	FromGitter	<Varriount> dom96, araq: The problem is similar to why sequences must be copied, right? Unless you have a refcount with the file object, the destructor will still be called, even if there are other copies of the file handle in the program.
12:42:43	Yardanico	arnetheduck, and what can be the reason of /usr/bin/ld: /home/tiber/projects/experiments/nimcache/genpi.o: relocation R_X86_64_32 against `.text' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC ?
12:43:43	arnetheduck	-fPIC compile flag is missing somewhere? ;)
12:44:14	arnetheduck	likely you're trying to create a shared lib somewhere which nlvm doesn't even try to support..
12:46:39	miran	Araq, dom96: if v1.0 is planned for january (or whatever), have you maybe considered some kind of "month of bugfixes" before the release where we (the community) would try to close as many issues as possible?
12:47:44	miran	from what i could tell, currently there are more new issues than closes (in the same period of time)
12:47:51	dom96	miran: nope, maybe you could organise one :)
12:48:16	watzon	Damn I can't get this mingw stuff working
12:48:19	dom96	For v1 though it's more important to focus on breaking changes than bug fixes.
12:48:40	Yardanico	watzon, ?
12:48:53	watzon	I installed it and set up my nim.cfg file similar to Nickel's
12:49:05	miran	dom96: i would gladly help, but my nim knowledge is quite limited.... as you have probably seen - i've submitted only PRs for some very easy issues
12:49:06	watzon	But I keep getting `fatal error: io.h: No such file or directory`
12:49:28	watzon	Which it the same thing that happens with no mingw
12:49:50	miran	dom96: but then again, those issues are probably quite boring for you more experienced guys, and your time is better spent on those breaking changes that you mention
12:49:54	watzon	Would this be the right command to use? `nimble build -d:release --os:windows`
12:50:33	Yardanico	watzon, I've never used nimble for cross-compiling
12:50:36	dom96	watzon: you likely need to specify --cc: as well
12:50:39	Yardanico	only nim compiler itself
12:50:46	Yardanico	and yeah, you need to specify mingw compiler
12:50:55	Yardanico	dom96, ah, sorry, you don't need it
12:51:03	Yardanico	you need to specify gcc path and executable
12:51:12	dom96	yes
12:52:00	Yardanico	arnetheduck, it worked when I took LLVM IR compiled by nlvm, ran "opt" on it, then llc -filetype=obj -relocation-model=pic , and finally "gcc data.o -o a.out"
12:53:37	Yardanico	and hello world executable is smaller than nim with C backend :P
12:56:54	Yardanico	and we hit 1,100 issues again :(
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12:57:49	FromGitter	<data-man> Hi, Nim lovers!
12:58:03	Yardanico	hi
12:58:03	miran	Yardanico: are you volunteering for the mentioned "month of bugfixes"? :)
12:58:09	watzon	What would I use for the --cc: param?
12:58:15	Yardanico	watzon, don't use it
12:58:22	watzon	Oh ok haha
12:58:30	Yardanico	watzon, did you see https://github.com/VKBots/Nickel/blob/fd1fe80931b0255fca5a23f12c0b2bfe3c6e5a6d/src/nim.cfg#L15 ?
12:58:33	Yardanico	do the same
12:58:39	FromGitter	<data-man> https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/6582 Please, (Enj|Destr)oy! :)
12:59:10	watzon	I did, and it's in the same spot. How do I make sure nim is using that config file?
12:59:42	Yardanico	well your config file should be in the same directory as your main source file
13:00:02	Yardanico	or you can compile via a command like this:
13:00:02	Yardanico	nim c --gcc.linkerexe="mingw binary" --gcc.exe="mingw binary" --gcc.path="mingw binary path" --gcc.options.linker="" --os:"windows" -d:windows
13:00:03	watzon	It is
13:00:34	Yardanico	watzon, well did you copy crosswin part as well?
13:00:39	Yardanico	e.g. @if crosswin @end ?
13:00:53	watzon	Yeah
13:00:54	Yardanico	gotcha!
13:01:10	Yardanico	I've added this "if" so it would cross-compile if you specify -d:crosswin
13:01:12	Yardanico	just try
13:01:17	Yardanico	nimble ... -d:crosswin
13:01:22	miran	data-man - nice speedups!
13:01:22	watzon	Oh!
13:02:30	watzon	It worked!
13:04:15	Yardanico	watzon, but generally you should use visual studio compiler (vcc). it usually produces faster/smaller binaries than mingw
13:04:22	Yardanico	but you can use it only from windows AFAIK
13:04:33	watzon	Of course haha
13:04:49	watzon	Well I have windows, I just prefer to do my development in Fedora
13:05:05	Yardanico	watzon, well ok, it won't hurt you anyway
13:05:12	Yardanico	until you have some high-performance program
13:05:52	watzon	Yeah I figured
13:06:17	Yardanico	also don't forget that, if you've used SSL, you'll need to provide ssl dll's
13:06:52	watzon	ssl dlls?
13:07:03	Yardanico	watzon, OpenSSL DLLs
13:07:11	Yardanico	watzon, if you've used httpclient with some https websites
13:07:20	Yardanico	or compiled with -d:ssl
13:07:24	watzon	With the -d:ssl flag right? or is there something else?
13:07:30	Yardanico	yes, with -d:ssl flag
13:07:42	Yardanico	if you don't use it - you don't need them
13:07:48	watzon	Ok yeah I've got that
13:07:57	watzon	I figured that out early on haha
13:08:11	Yardanico	https://nim-lang.org/download/dlls.zip in case you'll need them
13:08:49	watzon	How do you specify an output directory when using the `nim c` command?
13:10:03	Yardanico	watzon, usually you do --out:mybinarypath
13:10:17	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> @data-man , seems great !
13:10:40	Yardanico	watzon, e..g nim c -d:release -o:myfolder/mybinary myfile.nim
13:10:58	watzon	Perfect, thanks :)
13:13:39	FromGitter	<data-man> @miran, @BigEpsilon, Thanks!
13:14:07	PMunch	Okay, I've made some progress. By defining the procs as {.importc.} they get resolved on load-time. Only problem is that the name of the proc now has to be the Nim-mangled name..
13:14:46	arnetheduck	Yardanico, well, nlvm compiles (internally, same as you did with opt etc) with whatever defaults there are, which probably means non-pic..
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13:16:50	dom96	Anyone wanna write an article on how to cross-compile with Nim? :)
13:17:23	Yardanico	dom96, it's not enough for an article
13:17:33	Yardanico	one command or one small config file
13:17:38	Yardanico	better to add it to wiki probably
13:20:01	PMunch	Hmm, is Nim procedure mangling deterministic? Ie will I get the same name every time?
13:20:25	dom96	Yardanico: It is enough.
13:20:52	dom96	but add it to wiki if you prefer
13:21:01	dom96	then add a link to it in nim-lang.org docs
13:27:44	Yardanico	PMunch, yes
13:27:58	Yardanico	it was non-deterministic before
13:28:35	Yardanico	PMunch, https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/commit/4b0ba5e3f1b78b3c45a3f1576ed3d60f9a8b6d80
13:29:11	Yardanico	but I may be mistaken
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13:30:41	PMunch	Hmm, what I tried to do didn't really work anyways though..
13:30:48	Yardanico	PMunch, Araq should know everything about that :)
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13:32:14	PMunch	Argh, this is so annoying. I feel like it should be possible somehow, seeing how it is possible in C. But I can't get it to work..
13:34:44	PMunch	The main executable has the symbol defined, and the DLL has it undefined. But it still doesn't trickle down to the DLL..
13:36:15	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> @Yardanico I fail to see how it can be one command or one small config file. Surely you must have installed stuff like clib for your target architecture?
13:36:22	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> I must admit I never tried
13:36:47	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> But i wouldn't think it could work out of the box to - say - compile an executable for Mac on a Linux box
13:37:11	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> Without installing something you copy from XCode or whatever
13:37:59	FromGitter	<andreaferretti> It seems to me there will be some nontrivial setup that maybe you are giving for granted
13:39:35	Araq	PMunch, use '.extern' to set an external name
13:39:54	PMunch	I tried that, but it didn't work..
13:43:41	PMunch	Well it works in that I do get an undefined symbol in the .so file I create
13:44:34	PMunch	But when I try to load it into an executable that has the symbol defined (checked with "nm -g") I get nil from loadLib and dlerror (added with .emit.) returns that the symbol is not defined
13:44:46	PMunch	So the symbol does not get overwritten as it should be the loader
13:44:58	FromGitter	<ephja> meep meep
13:46:12	PMunch	According to the dlopen manpage it should resolve missing symbols on load
13:46:30	PMunch	And I did --passC:"-export-dynamic" when I compiled the main binary
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14:02:52	PMunch	Phew, got it working now
14:03:05	PMunch	I was passing -rdynamic to --passC and not --passL
14:10:14	PMunch	Got to write this down..
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15:00:24	PMunch	Hmm, is there a way to get the name Nim will mangle a procedure to?
15:00:36	PMunch	I want to try and automate the process of the symbol lookup
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15:05:11	PMunch	Hmm, I see --genMapping in the docs
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15:05:54	PMunch	No idea how to call it though..
15:06:27	PMunch	I tried with "nim c --genMapping <nim file>" and that just fails with gcc: error: libregex.c: No such file or directory
15:08:30	FromGitter	<mratsim> Seems like regex are Nim nemesis
15:08:39	PMunch	Haha :P
15:12:21	PMunch	https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/1592
15:12:32	PMunch	Apparently it's been a bug since 2014..
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15:22:50	dom96	It is low priority though :)
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15:24:38	captainkraft	Wow, I haven't been here since July. I hope things are still going strong :-)
15:25:29	captainkraft	I'm working on some debugging tools for C and was considering either Nim, Odin, or C++ for the project. I used Nim for a little while and enjoyed writing it. I also noticed there is a binding out there for Nuklear, the imgui library in C.
15:25:45	captainkraft	Odin has Dear Imgui bindings, but the language is very young.
15:26:16	captainkraft	And C++, well, it's C++
15:27:53	SunDwarf	i wonder what recommendation youre gonna get in here :thinking:
15:28:10	gokr	Got some connection with the snap guys - to add Nim as a build plugin.
15:29:52	dom96	captainkraft: welcome back :)
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15:31:50	PMunch	captainkraft, haven't used Nuklear myself but I'll always recommend Nim :)
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16:25:25	FromGitter	<alehander42> how can I not escape symbols in a cstring ? e.g. `cstring"\t"` to be "\t" not "\\t"
16:33:43	*	gokr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
16:43:02	captainkraft	Can bindings be written in Nim for C++ libraries?
16:45:40	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> yes
16:45:52	onionhammer	im │ dave24
16:45:55	onionhammer	│10:24:38 captainkraft | Wow, I haven't been here since July. I hope things are still going strong
16:46:01	onionhammer	https://github.com/onionhammer/clibpp
16:46:05	onionhammer	sorry* wrong paste
16:46:09	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> you can use c2nim to do some of the initial work
16:46:20	FromGitter	<BigEpsilon> and compile with cpp target
16:46:44	dave24	what is this
16:46:52	dave24	I got pinged by somebody claiming to be me!!
16:46:55	dave24	outrage
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16:47:17	onionhammer	idk how that got in my clipboard lol
16:51:42	captainkraft	onionhammer: do you use Weechat?
16:53:56	*	kafke quit ()
16:55:21	onionhammer	i do yes
17:02:20	captainkraft	I have that same clipboard issue sometimes. Somehow I highlight the wrong line and it just lives in my clipboard when I think something else is there.
17:06:08	captainkraft	Have you heard of, or have you experienced yourself, struggling as a Nim programmer to find work where you are allowed to use Nim? Contractors and consultants seem to have more control over their tools, but if you are delivering a software product, do the clients/customers expect it to be written in a language they are familiar with?
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17:23:56	subsetpark	yes :)
17:24:34	subsetpark	As a "professional Nim programmer", I would find it insane to suggest Nim to a client
17:30:07	captainkraft	Why is that? What kind of products would you be delivering?
17:30:49	captainkraft	s. How large are they compared to something similar in C++?
17:30:55	captainkraft	wtf..
17:31:30	federico3	captainkraft: it really depends on the client. Also, sometimes you provide a service, not software.
17:31:30	captainkraft	Off topic: I've read in the recent survey that Nim produces large binaries. How large are they compared to something similar written in C++?
17:32:11	federico3	captainkraft: no, they are tiny, unless something went really wrong.
17:32:34	dom96	what, where in the survey did you read that?
17:34:49	federico3	dom96: IIRC it was one of the free-form answers in the survey
17:38:46	captainkraft	There were at least two responses that said "HUGE binaries"
17:38:52	captainkraft	I'll go back and check again
17:39:22	captainkraft	"Compiler doesn’t conform to Unix traditions and outputs HUGE binaries."
17:40:00	captainkraft	Oh, haha. The second one was the same quote, just put twice on the page. I took that as more than one person saying something similar :-/
17:40:09	captainkraft	Good to know that's not true, then
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17:40:52	federico3	https://hookrace.net/blog/nim-binary-size/
17:44:54	captainkraft	Very cool
17:45:21	dom96	You shouldn't put such high trust in survey respondent's anyway :P
17:45:43	captainkraft	In that survey, there was also a complaint about exceptions and the standard library's reliance on them. Is that a common concern?
17:48:11	dom96	I wouldn't say so.
17:48:38	dom96	But if others think so then please speak up, stdlib is under review now.
17:48:54	SunDwarf	probably a go user got let out of their if err != nil cage
17:49:12	dom96	lol
17:49:42	SunDwarf	also, if the stdlib is under review, I have some things about asyncdispatch
17:49:52	captainkraft	I've heard that exceptions are especially hated in the game making community.
17:49:59	SunDwarf	such as the lack of built-in async primitives such as locks or queues
17:50:12	SunDwarf	since ive come from python which has asyncio and etc which has all that stuff included
17:50:44	SunDwarf	unless i'm missing something in the docs somewhere
17:51:23	subsetpark	there are both locks and queues
17:51:39	subsetpark	(queues being implemented on deques)
17:51:47	SunDwarf	those are sync stuff for threads though, aren't they?
17:53:37	dom96	locks are locks, they can be used for threads and async procs if you really want
17:53:48	dom96	same for queues
17:54:19	dom96	They don't do any IO so whether they are synchronous or asynchronous doesn't matter.
17:55:14	SunDwarf	I guess i'm missing something about how asyncdispatch works because i dont see how they wouldn't block everything
17:55:32	captainkraft	Can exceptions be disabled? Would that make a large chunk of the standard library useless?
17:56:18	FromGitter	<Yardanico> why would you want to disable them?
17:56:30	dom96	SunDwarf: In fact, I don't see a reason why you'd need locks for async
17:57:15	SunDwarf	acquiring a lock whilst a proc does something such as wait on i/o so that no other proc can do that specific operation at the same time?
17:57:33	dom96	can you give a concrete example?
17:57:59	FromGitter	<Varriount> captainkraft: You can, in a way. What would procedures do when they encounter an error condition though?
17:59:24	SunDwarf	e.g. i have a proc that makes a http request which is ratelimited, and I don't want anything else to be able to make a http request whilst the ratelimit is active, so the first proc holds the lock until it expires
18:00:22	FromGitter	<Varriount> SunDwarf: Have a global lastCallTime variable?
18:00:25	FromGitter	<data-man> IMO, the stdlib must have a functions to determine the capabilities of the processor. isSSE(), isSSE2(), etc.
18:02:07	SunDwarf	the particular service I use is really really touchy about not hitting the ratelimits, so having two requests happen where one exhausts the rate limit and sets lastCallTime and the other starts before it's set can't happen
18:02:20	dom96	SunDwarf: Okay, so that would be a good use for locks. (I'd probably just have a counter called 'activeConnections' and not let anything exceed that, but both approaches will work).
18:02:36	dom96	s/that/my max connections/
18:03:08	dom96	hrm
18:03:17	dom96	I think I see what the potential problem would be
18:03:29	dom96	Acquiring the lock would block everything
18:04:26	FromGitter	<kdheepak> > how can I not escape symbols in a cstring ? e.g. `cstring"\t"` to be "\t" not "\\\t" @alehander42 I'm also curious about this. Did you figure this out?
18:06:44	FromGitter	<Varriount> @kdheepak Where are you getting the cstring from, and how are you displaying it?
18:07:09	dom96	SunDwarf: Make an issue :)
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18:08:42	FromGitter	<Varriount> SunDwarf: Huh. But async things aren't preemptively scheduled.
18:09:33	FromGitter	<Varriount> It's possible to check and update that lastCallTime "atomically", unless you decide to yield in-between the check and set.
18:11:20	dom96	Yeah, in general I still don't think locks are desperately needed for async.
18:11:48	dom96	For this rate limiting use case you'd likely want a queue anyway
18:11:55	dom96	And that would work fine with async
18:12:34	dom96	I decided to do the boring work of finally merging upcoming async https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/6585
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18:14:41	subsetpark	dom96: that's not your unification of the threading and async await, is it?
18:14:52	dom96	nope
18:15:11	dom96	support for threading in asynchttpserver is on my todo list though
18:15:26	dom96	But who knows whether it's even possible to achieve in a satisfactory manner right now
18:15:52	captainkraft	Varriount: I guess if a language has exceptions, there might not be a way to detect errors. So, maybe it is a serious problem for people who don't like exceptions.
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18:16:26	dom96	captainkraft: Yes, but Nim has checked exceptions. So this isn't a problem in general.
18:16:40	FromGitter	<Varriount> But exceptions *are*the way to detect errors.
18:16:53	dom96	(optional checked exceptions, we're not Java :))
18:17:30	SunDwarf	issue made, im not very good at writing them
18:17:43	captainkraft	How did people detect errors before exceptions were invented?
18:17:49	SunDwarf	apart from that ive absolutely fallen in love with nim in the last few weeks
18:17:59	FromGitter	<Varriount> There are two main models (that I know of). Either exceptions are represented a language mechanism, or they are returned as error codes/values
18:18:34	captainkraft	dom96: tbh, I'm not very familiar with exceptions. What do you mean checked exceptions and how is this better?
18:19:10	dom96	proc foo() {.raises: [].} = raise newException(OSError, "") # Compile-time error: foo() raises OSError
18:19:18	FromGitter	<Yardanico> but this is not enforced in nim
18:19:20	FromGitter	<Yardanico> :)
18:19:24	dom96	!eval proc foo() {.raises: [].} = raise newException(OSError, ""); foo()
18:19:25	NimBot	Compile failed: in.nim(1, 65) Error: statement not allowed after 'return', 'break', 'raise' or 'continue'
18:19:25	FromGitter	<Yardanico> as dom96 said
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18:19:31	captainkraft	I've only heard others' complaints about exceptions. Performance overhead and unnecessary code to add all over the place are the common issues, iirc.
18:19:37	dom96	oh heh
18:19:44	dom96	!eval (proc foo() {.raises: [].} = raise newException(OSError, "")); foo()
18:19:45	NimBot	Compile failed: in.nim(1, 7) Error: ')' expected
18:19:47	FromGitter	<Yardanico> captainkraft: you don't need to add unnecessary code
18:19:52	dom96	well that sucks
18:20:12	FromGitter	<Yardanico> dom96: nim is indentation based
18:20:18	dom96	lol?
18:20:32	FromGitter	<Yardanico> !eval let myproc = (proc foo() {.raises: [].} = raise newException(OSError, "")); myproc()
18:20:33	NimBot	Compile failed: in.nim(1, 20) Error: ')' expected
18:20:37	FromGitter	<Yardanico> :D
18:20:47	FromGitter	<Yardanico> don't expect to be able to have everything on one line
18:21:17	FromGitter	<Varriount> captainkraft: Were they using C, C++, or Java?
18:21:45	FromGitter	<Varriount> Depending on the compiler, C++ exceptions can have very little overhead.
18:21:56	captainkraft	either C or C++. Most of the programmers I talk with are C and C++ devs. Many of them interested in game development.
18:22:21	FromGitter	<Yardanico> well exceptions in nim are not annoying
18:22:30	FromGitter	<Yardanico> if you don't need to check for an exception - you don't do it
18:22:50	FromGitter	<Varriount> captiankraft: Regarding errors, the only other method is to return an error code through the return value.
18:23:00	FromGitter	<Yardanico> and this is mostly ugly
18:23:01	FromGitter	<Varriount> In which case you still have to add logic to check for the error.
18:23:27	dom96	Problem is that the way !eval works: you can't have more than one line.
18:23:31	dom96	And you shouldn't need to.
18:23:55	FromGitter	<Yardanico> why "you shouldn't need to"?
18:23:58	FromGitter	<Yardanico> nim is not C++ with brackets
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18:24:56	dom96	!eval let foo = (proc () {.raises: [].} = raise newException(OSError, "")); foo()
18:24:56	bkerin	cd
18:24:57	NimBot	Compile failed: in.nim(1, 37) Error: can raise an unlisted exception: ref OSError
18:24:58	dom96	There we go
18:25:19	FromGitter	<Varriount> captainkraft: The only big arguments I've heard against C++ and Java-style exceptions are that they have a performance penalty, and add another mechanism to the programming language.
18:25:54	Arrrr	!eval echo "Not a bad argument"
18:25:57	NimBot	Not a bad argument
18:26:07	Arrrr	nimbot agrees
18:26:23	bkerin	is it possible to get an off-line copy of docs
18:26:36	FromGitter	<Varriount> bkerin: What browser do you use?
18:26:54	FromGitter	<Yardanico> bkerin: yes!
18:27:14	*	FromGitter * Varriount is going to take a nap now
18:27:22	FromGitter	<Yardanico> you can: ⏎ 1) download all pages docs ⏎ 2) generate docs yourself (if you have nim repo) ⏎ 3) use devdocs.nim, but they have nim 0.17.2 [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=59ef860a0182fa5f4d7205aa]
18:27:26	FromGitter	<Yardanico> *nim 0.17.0
18:27:39	FromGitter	<kdheepak> @Varriount ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=59ef861bb20c64242941dc47]
18:27:45	FromGitter	<Yardanico> *devdocs.io
18:28:23	bkerin	i tried devdocs but it didn't have e.g. OOP Macro example and there was some stuff about voting for docs which turned me off
18:29:17	FromGitter	<Yardanico> it's nice actually
18:29:23	FromGitter	<Yardanico> and oop macro isn't official
18:29:36	FromGitter	<Yardanico> OOP macro is from "nim by example"
18:30:19	FromGitter	<Varriount> @kdheepak Ugh, I told @Araq the string prefix semantics were confusing.
18:30:25	FromGitter	<kdheepak> @Varriount on an unrelated note, I'm interested in working on the nlvm and adding features to allow a working REPL. I see that you've posted an issue there. I was wondering if you had used it / had any thoughts on where I could start
18:30:44	FromGitter	<Varriount> @kdheepak Use cstring("...") instead
18:31:14	FromGitter	<Varriount> @kdheepak What was the issue?
18:31:42	FromGitter	<Yardanico> @kdheepak I don't think you should start doing a REPL based on NLVM
18:32:00	FromGitter	<kdheepak> This repo (https://github.com/arnetheduck/nlvm). I'm just curious if you've used it.
18:32:11	FromGitter	<Yardanico> Firstly NLVM should have all features Nim has, e.g. threads
18:32:35	hogeland	bkerin: The docs are all checked in: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/tree/devel/doc
18:33:16	FromGitter	<kdheepak> @Yardanico Can you elaborate? I'm new enough to Nim that I don't know what the best way to go about this would be.
18:33:32	hogeland	bkerin: And for any individual modules you can generate the docs: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/tree/devel/doc/docgen.rst
18:33:45	FromGitter	<kdheepak> Perhaps I should open a forum thread regarding this, so that this conversation is easier to reference.
18:33:57	FromGitter	<Yardanico> @kdheepak NLVM is developed only by one developer
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18:35:23	GitDisc	<GooRoo> the usual concern regarding exceptions in C++ is possible problems during unrolling the stack
18:35:23	FromGitter	<Yardanico> I think really nim should make all stdlib modules in pure-nim (without importc), and then LLVM backend would be really good
18:35:54	GitDisc	<GooRoo> that was for previous discussion 
18:38:19	FromGitter	<Yardanico> the problem with LLVM is: it's yet another backend for nim
18:38:21	dom96	Yardanico: That's impossible
18:38:22	FromGitter	<kdheepak> Perhaps importc could use FFI instead?
18:38:29	FromGitter	<Yardanico> dom96: it IS possible
18:38:31	FromGitter	<Yardanico> why not?
18:38:38	FromGitter	<Varriount> @Yardanico And I would love it if we had a wealthy company or donor to back Nim.
18:38:46	dom96	Because the OS APIs are implemented in C
18:38:47	FromGitter	<Yardanico> yeah, that's the only problem :P
18:38:55	FromGitter	<Yardanico> well you can have FFI to support them
18:38:59	FromGitter	<Yardanico> I mean direct "importc"
18:39:07	dom96	You mean without 'header'
18:39:14	dom96	That's what the problem is for the LLVM backend
18:39:20	dom96	dynlib is fine
18:39:26	FromGitter	<kdheepak> @dom96 this would be possible if we used shared libraries and dynamic loading, yes?
18:39:28	FromGitter	<Yardanico> well yes, I know that dynlib is fine
18:39:29	FromGitter	<Varriount> How do other languages using LLVM interface with the OS?
18:40:28	FromGitter	<kdheepak> @Varriount I believe Julia ( which uses LLVM ) does it using dynamic loaded libraries
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18:44:40	dom96	kyrenn is awesome https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/78bowa/hey_this_is_kyren_from_chucklefish_we_make_and/dotvkdj/?context=3
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18:45:33	FromGitter	<kdheepak> @Varriount To clarify, (to my understanding) the dynamic loaded libraries discussion is relevant only because we are interested in using importc functions in a REPL environment.
18:46:30	bkerin	with the ref counting garbage collector, is the descturcotr guaranteed to be called when an object goes out of scope?
18:46:36	bkerin	if its the last ref?
18:47:20	dom96	Good question. You might wish to use a finaliser instead, AFAIK destructors don't work this way.
18:47:51	bkerin	that's probably what I meant, I know destructors are WIP still
18:48:09	dom96	I think you do get a guarantee in that case, but maybe Araq can confirm
18:51:04	bkerin	ref counting collector is the only gc where it seems like it might. The compiler doc shows --gc:refc|v2|markAndSweep|boehm|go|none|regions and I recall reading elsewhere that gc can be tuned is there a more detailed description of that somewhere?
18:51:16	captainkraft	Is nimx the best solution for GUI applications in Nim, currently?
18:55:11	captainkraft	dom96: you mentioned checked exceptions and then showed how !eval gave a compilation error. Is that to demonstrate that you can't use a function that raises an exception without handling it? Sorry, I'm not following.
18:55:23	dom96	yep, precisely
18:55:48	dom96	!eval let foo = (proc () = raise newException(OSError, "")); foo()
18:55:49	Araq	bkerin, the RC'ed GC offers no such guarantee either because it's *deferred* RC
18:55:51	NimBot	<no output>
18:55:58	dom96	Well that's disappointing.
18:56:02	captainkraft	haha
18:56:05	dom96	It should show the error, but anyway, now it compiles
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18:56:15	captainkraft	Doesn't that make exceptions more annoying? I can't just ignore them?
18:56:41	dom96	captainkraft: you can, the point is that you have the option to get the compiler to annoy you about them.
18:57:09	Araq	captainkraft, depends, nimx is game focussed being based on SDL, for native GUI we also have the usual huge messy gtk/wxWidgets etc wrappers
18:57:17	dom96	So you can decide "Okay, I don't want function `foo` to raise any exceptions, I want to handle all of them explicitly."
18:57:31	dom96	You mark it with {.raises: [].} and the compiler tells you the exceptions you need to handle
18:57:42	bkerin	Araq ok I though probably but worth an ask. something has to do unref I though maybe could be made immediate somehow
18:59:00	captainkraft	Araq: I found a wrapper for iup and nuklear as well. Not much in the way of tools built in Nim, it seems.
18:59:13	captainkraft	The Nuklear bindings might be just what I need, though
18:59:38	captainkraft	dom96: I see, so optional compile-time checking as well as a way to handle errors at runtime?
18:59:39	Araq	captainkraft, for browser based UIs I would use 'karax' but I wrote it so I'm biased
19:00:00	dom96	captainkraft: yep
19:00:00	GitDisc	<GooRoo> has anyone tried https://github.com/filcuc/nimqml for UI?
19:00:22	dom96	Araq: What's the status of ormin?
19:00:23	captainkraft	My goal is to write desktop applications as standalone programming tools. A simple debugger for C is what I'm working on now.
19:02:19	captainkraft	dom96: do the standard library functions that raise exceptions have the compile-time checking built in by default?
19:02:54	dom96	captainkraft: the compiler infers everything automatically :)
19:06:15	FromGitter	<mratsim> Would love to see @data-man suggestion somewhere: isSSE, isAVX, etc to detect CPU capabilities
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19:08:31	captainkraft	What is the preferred way of keeping Nim and libraries up-to-date?
19:08:56	captainkraft	Ubuntu's Nim package is way out of date, and I recall reading about a tool that does this for you?
19:09:16	FromGitter	<Varriount> captainkraft: Nimble
19:09:26	federico3	captainkraft: no, Nim is at 0.17.2 in artful
19:09:46	FromGitter	<Varriount> GooRoo: I might try it on my Windows laptop later today, if I have time.
19:10:27	FromGitter	<Varriount> Though, it looks to have been only tested on Linux
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19:11:19	dom96	captainkraft: choosenim
19:12:41	captainkraft	choosenim, that's the one
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19:17:56	captainkraft	dom96: Araq: What do you think is keeping Nim from more wide adoption? Are you confident that will change after 1.0?
19:18:38	miran_	captainkraft: small amount of packages/libraries
19:18:38	dom96	captainkraft: A Mozilla/Google/Facebook/Microsoft
19:18:48	miran_	and that's because of small community
19:18:56	dom96	Whether that is strictly necessary for wide adoption is an open question
19:19:04	miran_	and that's because of small amount of packages/libraries, and that...
19:19:38	captainkraft	Will that change? How?
19:20:03	dom96	But if myself and Araq (and some others, notably zahary) were able to work on Nim full-time, with sponsorship from a big company, Nim would move a lot faster and we would have more time to market it
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19:20:09	federico3	Python never had [in]famous tech companies pushing it, yet...
19:20:34	miran_	but things might change for better after v1.0 is out - if that is not just renamed v0.18, and it guarantees more stability and less breaking in the future versions
19:20:41	dom96	Indeed. That gives me hope, but it also feels like we're living in a different age these days
19:20:57	GitDisc	<GooRoo> Python didn't need it because there was no good competitor in fact
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19:22:22	GitDisc	<GooRoo> Ruby was created in 2005, but became famous only in 2001 or 2002 with the release of Ruby on Rails
19:22:51	PMunch	GooRoo, got that backwards?
19:23:11	captainkraft	2011/12 perhaps?
19:23:14	FromGitter	<data-man> @mratsim, a programs should work fast on any hardware. :) ⏎ For e.g., in the Delphi (and in the FreePascal), a functions that are optimized for a specific set of processor instructions are dynamically assigned at run time.
19:23:21	GitDisc	<GooRoo> sorry, in 1995
19:23:36	hogeland	>Python never had [in]famous tech companies pushing it,
19:23:37	GitDisc	<GooRoo> missed 10 years accidentally )
19:23:46	ibutra	Araq, dom96 can I have some input on https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/6541
19:23:59	hogeland	that's not totally true, since Guido worked at Google on Python for yeards
19:24:05	hogeland	*years
19:24:21	hogeland	But yeah it wasn't popular because of a corporate push
19:24:39	captainkraft	dom96: what's a good way to ease into contributing to the language itself? Should new Nim users wait until they are much more familiar with the language before attempting to contribute?
19:24:43	bkerin	well noob perspective here: im trying nim because: C and JS backends, typed, fast compiled
19:24:51	FromGitter	<Varriount> hogeland: However Python did not have 3 different company-sponsored languages competing against it (Go, Rust, Swift)
19:24:51	dom96	hogeland: wasn't that after it became somewhat mainstream?
19:24:54	federico3	hogeland: the language was already popular before that
19:25:37	bkerin	it seems like the best choice with these features to me, so if it does get polish and maybe some backing it would seem to be logical choice for lots of uses
19:26:04	hogeland	Varriount: that's very true
19:26:15	dom96	ibutra: sorry, wish I could help but this is a question for Araq
19:26:21	ibutra	captainkraft I am quite new with nim and I just look at the issues labled easy or really interest me and try my best. (Just spend the last 5 hours after I was done working figuring out where assignments are generated ;) )
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19:27:12	ibutra	dom96 don't worry I will just wait for him then :)
19:29:41	PMunch	Hmm, is there no way to get the mapping from nim procedure definition to C-mangled symbol?
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19:30:30	ibutra	If I recall correctly there is a pragma to turn off mangling for a procedure. would that help?
19:31:13	PMunch	Not really, turning it off won't work for multiple procs with the same name but different signatures (as C doesn't allow this)
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19:31:50	PMunch	I could of course use the extern pragma to define the mangled name of each proc myself, but that's just as much work..
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19:32:43	dom96	PMunch: I think you'll have to define the names yourself
19:32:54	dom96	you can use a macro for this
19:33:16	PMunch	Hmmm
19:33:30	PMunch	Why couldn't --genMapping just work :P
19:33:50	PMunch	Would've made this process so much easier..
19:34:14	PMunch	Hmm, maybe I can parse the GDB debugger symbols..
19:34:25	PMunch	Those tell you what proc it is right?
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19:39:32	PMunch	--embedsrc embeds everything as comments, expect proc definitions..
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19:42:44	GitDisc	<treeform> Hey dom96, on HN you said "Indeed, Araq's plan is to release v1 ASAP (he said by the end of this year on IRC) and implement the ideas described in this article afterwards for a Nim v2." Is there any more about time lines and what nim team plans are?
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19:44:25	dom96	Not really. I think in general though the consensus is that v1 has been taking too long, and we all want it out ASAP.
19:44:57	dom96	But we really don't have any timelines ourselves. It will be ready when it's ready.
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19:45:57	GitDisc	<treeform> Sounds good. That is how I operate too. Can't blame others.
19:47:37	PMunch	Is there really no default way to get something like a mangling table?
19:47:55	PMunch	Seems like something that would be pretty easy to put in..
19:48:05	PMunch	After all Nim has to know the mapping at some point
19:48:13	dom96	But if you're thinking of holding off on Nim until after v1, please don't. We still have time to make breaking changes, and the more people use it now the higher the chances that we will be able to find out what changes need to be made.
19:48:42	dom96	PMunch: why do you need this?
19:49:26	PMunch	I'm dynamically loading code into the program, and it needs to get some procedures from the main program
19:49:42	PMunch	By some I mean 80+ so passing them in a setup function wouldn't work
19:50:18	PMunch	Currently I have something like: proc define(i: In): ref MinScope {.importc, extern: "define_HtvBzo0skz2GBYAKuFddKA".}
19:50:34	PMunch	Which I've written manually for the five procs I used in a test
19:50:53	PMunch	And it works fine, but adding all 80 would be really tedious..
19:51:19	ipjk	Why won't the non-mangling pragma work? Why do you need to mangle the names?
19:51:44	PMunch	Because I have many procs with the same name but different signatures, and C doesn't allow that
19:51:52	PMunch	So they would have to map to different symbols
19:51:59	PMunch	And I would have to do the mapping manually again
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19:52:19	ibutra	But don't you need a manual step for those anyway?
19:52:41	PMunch	I was hoping that I could use --genMapping and write a script that would automatically rewrite that into the procedure definition code
19:52:49	GitDisc	<treeform> dom96, naa I am using nim. Convincing other people though... i bet they would just complain about other things. People hate change.
19:53:06	ibutra	or are you parsing the types of the arguments somewhere to know which one to call if you had the mangling mapping?
19:53:18	PMunch	If I had a file with something like "proc define(i: In): ref MinScope -> define_HtvBzo0skz2GBYAKuFddKA" it would be dead easy to do
19:54:33	PMunch	I'm just defining them as "don't worry, you'll find this symbol when you're running" and the compiler spits out a file with undeclared symbols in it. When the program loads them it will allow it to read from it's symbols table and therefore get the definition for the symbol.
19:58:30	ibutra	you could try to find out where the mangling is done and see if it is deterministic. If so you could reproduce it
19:58:41	Araq	PMunch, the name mangling is deterministic
19:58:43	gokr	hogeland: I am not fully certain, but I suspect one strong factor pushing Python along was Redhat's move to focus entirely on it.
19:59:03	Araq	you can rely on the name define_HtvBzo0skz2GBYAKuFddKA (but really shouldn't...)
19:59:20	PMunch	Yes, but I don't want to manually get all 90 of these
19:59:28	PMunch	And especially not if it suddenly changes
19:59:42	Araq	there was an awesome hack for this
19:59:47	Araq	oh yeah
19:59:57	PMunch	Is the name mangling defined somewhere so I can easily copy it?
20:00:12	PMunch	It's not like the md5 hash of the signature or something
20:00:23	Araq	PMunch, muhahaha welcome to world of namespaces
20:00:54	Araq	we need to hash an awful lot to guarantee distinct hashes
20:01:15	PMunch	Oh right, good point
20:01:23	PMunch	So how are they generated?
20:01:38	PMunch	Just a counter somewhere?
20:01:50	Araq	compiler/sighashes.nim
20:02:05	Araq	you don't want to copy these 300 lines of code
20:02:21	Araq	it's not a counter, I said it's deterministic now
20:02:36	*	gokr noticing a certain boost in number of people here...
20:02:57	dom96	gokr: 2018 will surely be the year of Nim
20:03:05	dom96	:)
20:03:16	gokr	Hehe
20:03:29	PMunch	Oh, it's that deterministic
20:03:30	miran_	dom96: and the year of linux, from what i heard :D :D
20:03:41	PMunch	Araq, so what should I do then?
20:03:43	dom96	For those of you that didn't see, based on this reply it seems that Nim really is perfect for game dev https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/78bowa/hey_this_is_kyren_from_chucklefish_we_make_and/dotvkdj/
20:03:56	gokr	The year of Linux on the Desktop! Eh... no, that was another year.
20:03:59	dom96	(Developer of Stardew Valley/Starbound)
20:04:06	*	dom96 is awestruck
20:04:11	PMunch	I got nim to compile with --genMapping by setting --nimcache to the current directory and copying in nimbase.h
20:04:24	PMunch	But the Symbols table in the mapping.txt file is still empty..
20:05:04	miran_	gokr: that year was in the past or in the future? :P
20:05:11	miran_	or both? :D
20:06:35	gokr	dom96: That is indeed a really nice post. Hope he pops in here also so that Araq can help him out with that evaluation
20:06:40	miran_	Araq, dom96: "Nim has its roots in a mash-up of Python and Pascal, and it borrows a lot of bad ideas from Pascal/Delphi. You can take the developer out of Pascal but it's very hard to take the Pascal out of the developer"
20:06:58	miran_	seen in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/78f2y9/nim_a_new_option_for_optimizing_inner_loops/
20:07:25	FromGitter	<Yardanico> https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/78f2y9/nim_a_new_option_for_optimizing_inner_loops/dotzvsn/
20:08:02	Araq	miran_, so? people are free to have this opinion.
20:08:21	Araq	at least I didn't take the bad ideas of Python.
20:08:27	miran_	hehehe
20:08:36	Araq	which would be pretty much everything beyond its basic syntax.
20:09:14	miran_	i've copied the link - thought maybe one of you might join the discussion
20:12:21	Araq	in fact, even its basic syntax is inconsistent, *def*ine method, define *class*
20:13:59	Araq	PMunch, what are you trying to do?
20:15:55	hogeland	Ah, you know what Python has that Nim is missing?
20:15:55	PMunch	Well, I'm loading a dynamic library and I need to access some of the symbols of the main program. Currently I have proc define(i: In): ref MinScope {.importc, extern: "define_HtvBzo0skz2GBYAKuFddKA".} which works fine and creates a dynlib with that system as undefined and reads it from the global symbols table when it's loaded into the program. However I don't want to manually generate those mappings for 80+ procs, so I'm looking for a way to automate the
20:15:57	PMunch	process
20:16:06	hogeland	The killer feature that brought it to the top?
20:16:15	hogeland	The global interpreter lock
20:16:49	FromGitter	<Yardanico> :D
20:19:49	PMunch	Aha, with --debuginfo I got something which might be useable
20:21:26	PMunch	I can search through the .nim file I want to map, then for each "proc" I can get the current line, then look in the .ndi file and grab the mangled name from there
20:21:33	PMunch	Unless you have a better idea Araq
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20:25:41	PMunch	https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/5dca695bcfaad7212679c80b3219e0f69afdca7d/compiler/extccomp.nim#L877
20:25:49	Araq	PMunch, import the module that defines the procs?
20:25:52	PMunch	This seems like the broken part of --genMapping by the way
20:26:39	PMunch	Araq, that would mean that each dynlib would be copying half the main program. And for every fix in the main program every dynlib would have to be compiled again not to break anything..
20:27:41	FromGitter	<Yardanico> we definitely need a library to ease splitting our modules into different dll's :)
20:28:00	Araq	PMunch, define a pragma that does either
20:28:10	PMunch	Either what?
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20:28:22	Araq	.dynlib, importc
20:28:26	Araq	or
20:28:36	elrood	wouldn't the obvious solution to PMunch's problem be to just fix --genMapping instead of wasting time searching for workarounds?
20:28:39	Araq	.dynlib: "name.dll", exportc
20:29:07	PMunch	elrood, yeah that would be nice. Or at least remove it since it's quite broken as-is
20:30:46	PMunch	Error: 'dynlib' requires 'exportc'
20:30:53	PMunch	So I guess the first one is out..
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20:30:58	FromGitter	<Yardanico> ?
20:31:07	FromGitter	<Yardanico> {.dynlib: "name.dll", exportc.}
20:31:10	PMunch	What would .dynlib: "name.dll", exportc do?
20:31:34	PMunch	Yardanico, the other was Araqs first suggestion
20:31:43	FromGitter	<Yardanico> yes
20:31:50	FromGitter	<Yardanico> but why you didn't try his solution?
20:32:17	PMunch	I tried the first one, "{.dynlib, importc.}" that didn't compile
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20:32:42	FromGitter	<Yardanico> did you try dynlib with name.dll ?
20:32:51	PMunch	What would "{.dynlib: "name.dll", exportc.}" actually do?
20:33:02	Araq	well the other way round
20:33:10	Araq	.dynlib, exportc
20:33:22	Araq	.dynlib: "my.dll", importc
20:35:08	PMunch	Wait, I think you misunderstood
20:35:21	PMunch	It's the dynlib that needs symbols from the main program
20:35:24	PMunch	Not the other way around
20:36:54	dom96	damn, we're definitely getting many more PRs
20:36:58	dom96	Not sure if hacktoberfest
20:37:05	dom96	or it really is the year of Nim
20:37:33	FromGitter	<Yardanico> but many of them aren't merged
20:37:39	FromGitter	<Yardanico> and many of them are very old
20:37:41	PMunch	I'll guess we'll see in November..
20:37:45	FromGitter	<Yardanico> and they are not resolved/closed
20:38:00	GitDisc	<treeform> I used nim at work and got paid for it, so that is a first for me.
20:38:02	dom96	Yardanico: Stay positive my friend :)
20:38:23	dom96	treeform: nice, where do you work (if you don't mind sharing this)?
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20:40:09	GitDisc	<treeform> It was just for a hakathon-like project. We will probably not use it in production. Because I do data crunching no one cares what I use as they are one-off scripts.
20:40:33	GitDisc	<treeform> I work for a social site called reddit.
20:40:41	FromGitter	<Yardanico> woow
20:40:42	dom96	whoa, for real?
20:41:22	dom96	That's pretty freaking awesome
20:41:36	GitDisc	<treeform> I do not feel it is that exciting...
20:42:49	PMunch	treeform, you don't like working for them, or you don't think the job is exiting?
20:43:06	GitDisc	<treeform> Oh i love working here and my job is pretty good.
20:43:21	Viktor	If I name a file stdin.nim, add only this line “let inText = stdin.readLine()” I get an error at nim c -r : stdin.nim(1, 20) Error: undeclared identifier: 'readLine'
20:43:27	GitDisc	<treeform> The fact that I used nim is not that exciting. Its a cool language why not.
20:43:31	Viktor	if I name it anything else it works
20:43:38	elrood	perhaps if you could expand a little on the *we will probably not use it in production* bit, that'd be helpful for the project. always good to hear what is standing in the way of adoption
20:43:42	Viktor	should I log a bug report, or is this a know issue?
20:43:51	FromGitter	<Yardanico> this is a known issue
20:43:54	FromGitter	<Yardanico> you can't do that
20:43:58	dom96	treeform: oh yeah, I was referring to the fact that you work at Reddit.
20:44:24	FromGitter	<mratsim> You can see talks about v1 soon from 2014 in the forum ;)
20:44:28	Viktor	so what I cannot do is name a file anything that is in the nim source repo, or only stdin is not allowed?
20:44:45	GitDisc	<treeform> dom if you find your self in SF, stop by I will show you around.
20:45:07	FromGitter	<Yardanico> you can't name your file "myvar.nim" if you have myvar in myvar.nim
20:45:23	dom96	treeform: Ooh, thanks. Will keep this in mind :D
20:45:26	Viktor	aha ok, got it!
20:46:12	Viktor	I am going through your book dom96 by the way, it is awesome.
20:46:29	dom96	Viktor: Glad you like it, thanks for buying it :)
20:46:42	Viktor	I am reading it on Safari, I have a subscription
20:46:48	Viktor	I hope you still get money for it.
20:47:21	bkerin	i don't understand .used. pragma example
20:47:21	dom96	ahh cool. Good question, I have no idea heh
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20:47:43	Viktor	But I will most likely buy it as well, and have it on the shelf :)
20:47:44	bkerin	echoAdd and echoSub do not have * so how are they exported?
20:48:18	GitDisc	<treeform> elrood, I build kind of a map reduce thingy, I need to convince people that my map reducer thingy is better then their map reducer thingy.
20:48:35	bkerin	o
20:48:37	bkerin	not exported
20:48:49	bkerin	nm
20:50:27	PMunch	Well okay, I'm off now
20:50:27	ipjk	bkerin: it ignores the warning produced for a function not used.
20:50:54	ipjk	bkerin: they aren't exported, they are used within the same module.
20:51:03	PMunch	Guess I'll be writing a script to create my mapping tomorrow from the ndi file, should be fun -_-
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20:54:25	ipjk	bkerin: but lets say you have proc add(...) in module 'a.nim', if you forgot the export and try to use it in another module, a warning will be printed telling you proc add(...) isn't used.
20:54:41	ipjk	bkerin: since it isn't called in module 'a.nim', just implemented.
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20:59:36	Araq	<mratsim> You can see talks about v1 soon from 2014 in the forum -- yup, and it will be "really soon" in december 2020
21:02:06	bkerin	ipjk i got it thx was misreading the doc though it talked about exported unused syms
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21:28:40	watzon	How would I go about linking libeay64.dll when compiling? Or can you?
21:29:24	watzon	I'm trying to compile a program that requires ssl for Windows
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21:39:22	dom96	watzon: it's loaded at runtime
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21:39:30	dom96	you can't statically link a dll
21:39:39	watzon	Ahh ok
21:40:02	watzon	So is there a way to do it that won't require loading it at runtime?
21:40:19	dom96	no easy way I'm afraid
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21:41:52	watzon	Well damn haha
21:43:24	dom96	why do you want to statically link it?
21:43:38	Araq	you can get the C code and .compile it and do some --dynlibOverride
21:44:16	Araq	we probably should have figured out how to do that years ago, no DLL required for SSL support
21:44:58	watzon	dom96: make the release process a little easier
21:45:10	watzon	Araq: agreed
21:45:27	Araq	watzon, try it please and report your results
21:46:22	Araq	that would really be useful for the whole community
21:46:46	watzon	I imagine I'd want this? https://github.com/openssl/openssl
21:48:05	watzon	I'm not a big C guy, so a lot of this stuff is still pretty new to me
21:50:37	elrood	especially for security-relevant things like ssl dynamic linking makes more sense though
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22:20:09	GitDisc	<GooRoo> @dom (dom69), I believe that ConcernedApe is the developer of Stardew Valley. Chucklefish is the publisher (and probably they could help him with porting it to more platforms)
22:20:44	dom96	Yep
22:20:54	FromGitter	<kdheepak> @GooRoo its @dom96 but he'll probably see this message anyway.
22:21:51	FromGitter	<kdheepak> Is there an example of Nim on Android that I can take a look at?
22:22:13	dom96	there is something in the Nim repo
22:23:23	GitDisc	<GooRoo> @kdheepak I know, but it's difficult to make mentions relying on some bridge between Discord, Gitter and IRC
22:23:23	FromGitter	<kdheepak> Found it! Thanks!
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22:26:18	GitDisc	<GooRoo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0rh4RcGXo8
22:26:34	GitDisc	<GooRoo> Wrong chat, sorry
22:30:16	GitDisc	<GooRoo> BTW, one more reason to use something modern like Slack or Discord without bridges: ability to edit / delete messages
22:32:14	GitDisc	<GooRoo> I've removed the link, posted by mistake, but it has already been synced
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22:40:11	adeohluwa	say you have a node. js app on a server, all things bn equal you can handle a lot more users by just switching to nim lang right?
22:44:44	adeohluwa	between the twitch tv live stream == "awesome"
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