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| 00:29:06 | Araq | flaviu: seems I can't make #1678 to work and at the same time retain parsing sanity |
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| 00:30:37 | Araq | thing is, we also want to allow 1-liners for 'try' |
| 00:31:43 | flaviu | Might as well leave it open, it's not particularly important anyway |
| 00:32:08 | Araq | and we don't want to ignore indentation completely either |
| 00:32:20 | Araq | as then nesting becomes fishy: |
| 00:32:25 | Araq | p( |
| 00:32:27 | Araq | try: |
| 00:32:38 | Araq | try: |
| 00:32:46 | Araq | except ValueError: |
| 00:33:07 | Araq | except IOError: # belongs to innermost 'try' then?! |
| 00:33:17 | Araq | however |
| 00:33:28 | flaviu | didn't you get rid of significant comments ? |
| 00:33:35 | Araq | I did |
| 00:33:39 | Araq | not the point here |
| 00:34:03 | Araq | look at my above example |
| 00:34:22 | flaviu | How could except IOError belog to the innermost try? |
| 00:34:28 | Araq | the rule you're after here is "align 'except' to the 'try'" |
| 00:34:48 | Araq | but the current grammar has no such concept and no such rule |
| 00:34:52 | ldlework | ouch |
| 00:35:11 | ldlework | not even like, with if's and elses' |
| 00:35:13 | ldlework | ? |
| 00:35:33 | Araq | and I don't want to add a rule like that either |
| 00:35:44 | ldlework | o.O |
| 00:35:56 | Araq | someLongLine(case x |
| 00:36:07 | Araq | of foo: .... ) |
| 00:36:34 | Araq | 'of' doesn't need to be aligned to the 'case' here |
| 00:36:50 | flaviu | isn't the grammar like `<try expresison> ::= 'try' ':' IND <statement>+ DED 'except' ':'`? |
| 00:37:07 | flaviu | `<try expresison> ::= 'try' ':' <statement> 'except' ':'` |
| 00:37:29 | flaviu | oops, forgot the trailing <statement> on both. |
| 00:38:40 | Araq | that is for the try statement, but we're talking about the try expression |
| 00:39:13 | flaviu | There's a difference? |
| 00:40:34 | Araq | .eval try: echo("hi") except: echo("ho") |
| 00:40:37 | Mimbus | Araq: hi |
| 00:42:21 | Araq | yeah there is a difference but I'm not sure if it's truely necessary |
| 00:44:52 | Araq | hrm but maybe we should really consider to go with the "alignment" rule |
| 00:50:24 | Araq | oh well |
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| 01:20:21 | dom96 | Araq: In that case perhaps the 'of' should be aligned to the /ca |
| 01:20:26 | dom96 | *'case' |
| 01:20:40 | Araq | yes, but this is not how it currently works |
| 01:21:12 | dom96 | In the interest of expressiveness #1678 should work. |
| 01:21:16 | Araq | and I won't change it for 1.0. breaks code, gain is questionable at best |
| 01:21:39 | Araq | expressiveness has not much to do with layout restrictions |
| 01:22:12 | dom96 | Is there a different way to use 'try' as an expression like that? |
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| 01:24:35 | Araq | as a one-liner |
| 01:24:46 | Araq | which is the more important use case anyway, IMO |
| 01:25:14 | EXetoC | well what's the purpose if you can't return a value? |
| 01:25:19 | EXetoC | though I did report that |
| 01:26:10 | dom96 | So, why does an if expression work in that case but not a try expression? |
| 01:26:29 | EXetoC | no wait |
| 01:26:48 | Araq | dom96: an 'if' expression doesn't work either |
| 01:27:29 | Araq | 'case' does but then there is no "inline case" where the 'of' is in the same line |
| 01:27:37 | EXetoC | no it's about using any block containing a raise as an expression |
| 01:27:58 | Araq | EXetoC: you speak of something completely different |
| 01:28:33 | dom96 | Araq: It does without parenthesis though. |
| 01:28:44 | Araq | yes. |
| 01:28:57 | dom96 | As does the try expression. |
| 01:29:29 | dom96 | That's fine I guess. |
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| 03:34:06 | haldean | Hey folks! I'd love to start hacking on nim and I noticed that constants like "4." are parser errors, instead of being parsed as floats |
| 03:34:29 | haldean | That seemed like (a) not desirable behavior and (b) something probably fixable with a little change |
| 03:34:38 | haldean | Would a patch that caused "4." to parse as a float constant be welcome? |
| 03:35:18 | dyu | 4.float |
| 03:36:45 | haldean | sure, I know you can get around it |
| 03:37:09 | haldean | in many (most?) other languages, adding a period onto a base-10 integer literal promotes it to a float literal |
| 03:37:23 | haldean | mostly I'm wondering if that behavior would be desirable for nim |
| 03:38:10 | dyu | or you can: type f = float ... they use 4.f |
| 03:38:15 | dyu | then* |
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| 09:11:37 | EXetoC | dyu: there's also 4f32 (4'f32) |
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| 09:40:46 | dyu | yep |
| 09:41:01 | dyu | realized that after posting |
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| 10:33:56 | matkuki | Hi guys. |
| 10:35:33 | matkuki | I have a namespace macro used just for escaping indentation, so the code in a module looks grouped. |
| 10:36:22 | matkuki | This is the macro: macro namespace*(head: expr, body: stmt): stmt =; result = body; |
| 10:37:30 | matkuki | It works as long as there are no exportable symbols, as soon as I add an `*` to a definition, I get: |
| 10:38:21 | matkuki | "Error: invalid visibility: '*'". Why is that? |
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| 12:22:53 | matkuki | Found the "immediate" pragma that fixed the issue. |
| 12:28:47 | Araq | matkuki: yeah but I'd argue it's a bug anyway |
| 12:29:07 | Araq | please report it |
| 12:29:25 | Araq | so ... next on my todo ... issue #1120 |
| 12:29:48 | Araq | and then I think working idetools should get priority over the other "high priority" bugs |
| 12:30:34 | Araq | except for issue #871 ... *sigh* |
| 12:35:16 | matkuki | Araq: Will do. |
| 12:39:05 | Araq | thanks. btw the fix for this is trivial ;-) |
| 12:39:24 | Araq | I already noticed this bug but never fixed it |
| 12:39:33 | Araq | see you later |
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| 13:58:18 | dom96 | Araq: It seems you broke something: htmlgen.hr() doesn't work anymore. |
| 14:01:36 | flaviu | dom96: git bisect! |
| 14:01:56 | dom96 | I ain't got no time for that. |
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| 14:18:54 | Araq | dom96: fixed. |
| 14:19:03 | dom96 | cool |
| 14:19:08 | Araq | no need to git bisect, I know why it's broken |
| 14:19:17 | Araq | the compiler is simply more strict now |
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| 14:19:54 | Araq | dom96: likely more tags in htmlgen are affected, but now you know how to fix these ;-) |
| 14:20:11 | dom96 | yes |
| 14:20:33 | dom96 | Weren't we going to make a better htmlgen anyway? |
| 14:20:44 | Araq | yup |
| 14:21:26 | Araq | but that's no reason to break what is already used heavily |
| 14:21:32 | dom96 | Also, what happens if a tag can be empty or contain children? |
| 14:21:46 | Araq | then you use the empty list |
| 14:22:00 | Araq | passing more args than required is allowed for immediate macros |
| 14:22:11 | Araq | for better or worse... |
| 14:22:16 | dom96 | That's fine. I think the better htmlgen module should be a nimble package anyway |
| 14:22:55 | dom96 | Araq: Isn't varargs enough? |
| 14:23:12 | Araq | hrm that would be the non hacky solution |
| 14:26:20 | dom96 | Indeed. We should adopt it :P |
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| 16:48:11 | onionhammer | or better yet use nim templates instead of htmlgen <_< |
| 16:48:17 | enurlyx | dom96: It seems the forum has a bug? I started a reply, then did preview, then someone else replied, then i preview again, then I submitted --> 404. But the forum was still running. |
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| 16:52:54 | enurlyx | To all a Merry XMas! Araq, thank you for the hard work! |
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| 17:33:05 | dom96 | Merry christmas everyone! |
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| 17:39:32 | onionhammer | hm dom96 the nim forum is hard to browse w/ lynx |
| 17:40:01 | dom96 | Yeah. I'm not going to fix that :P |
| 17:40:18 | dts|pokeball | whats lynx? |
| 17:43:16 | dom96 | It's a web browser, look it up. |
| 17:43:23 | dts|pokeball | nevar |
| 17:55:40 | flaviu | onionhammer: How is it hard to read? |
| 17:56:04 | flaviu | It looks fine to me |
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| 20:27:25 | Araq | hi. Merry Christmas to everyone! |
| 20:27:45 | gmpreussner | Frohe Weihnachten, Araq! |
| 20:38:33 | dom96 | hey Araq |
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| 20:47:37 | dts|pokeball | Araq, as a christmas present you should write a nim to ELF compiler |
| 20:48:17 | flaviu | Doesn't gcc do that? |
| 20:50:12 | dom96 | Mat is already doing that I think. |
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| 20:57:43 | Araq | dts|pokeball: I really consider to give you guys a Pascal backend so you can use Lazarus easily to develop UIs |
| 20:58:00 | dts|pokeball | :D |
| 20:58:08 | dts|pokeball | flaviu, yeah, but a direct one would be nice |
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| 20:59:33 | flaviu | Why would it be nice? |
| 20:59:51 | flaviu | it'd just be shitty and slow |
| 21:00:31 | Araq | flaviu: yeah but it would improve compile times and might give us a JIT |
| 21:00:49 | flaviu | I'd like a working vm first, please |
| 21:01:24 | dom96 | Writing new backends is too much effort. |
| 21:01:29 | dom96 | for too little gain at this point |
| 21:01:48 | dom96 | You're better off wrapping QT |
| 21:01:59 | flaviu | Weren't there plans to write a lua backend? |
| 21:02:49 | dts|pokeball | <flaviu> it'd just be shitty and slow not neccesarilly.... |
| 21:03:20 | flaviu | You're probably right. |
| 21:03:52 | flaviu | The current VM is getting better and less buggy, no real point now |
| 21:04:24 | dom96 | Guys, i'm writing the news post for the new release. So far I have this: https://gist.github.com/dom96/ff0dda49764da1e36e1c |
| 21:04:30 | dom96 | Any suggestions about what I should write about? |
| 21:04:31 | EXetoC | flaviu: I think it was abandoned |
| 21:04:42 | EXetoC | 2+ years ago maybe |
| 21:04:48 | dom96 | It would be nice to have something like Rust's Road to 1.0. |
| 21:05:18 | flaviu | "guarantee no breaking changes" |
| 21:05:29 | flaviu | "no" is too strong of a word, imo |
| 21:06:22 | flaviu | "Take a look at some benchmarks if you don't believe us" sounds too defensive |
| 21:08:12 | gmpreussner | "The good news is" that is a little defensive too |
| 21:08:19 | flaviu | I don't like the Nim philosophy checklist approach to structuring the last two paragraphs, but may just be me. |
| 21:09:08 | dom96 | Perhaps i'm not the best person to write this. Any volunteers? |
| 21:09:31 | gmpreussner | dom96: no, i think the content is great |
| 21:09:42 | gmpreussner | it just a bit of a negative touch, that's all |
| 21:09:57 | gmpreussner | and punctuation is a little off as well :) |
| 21:10:04 | gmpreussner | can i make some suggestions in the comments? |
| 21:10:06 | dom96 | I don't want it to sound like a complete and utter advertisement. |
| 21:10:17 | dom96 | sure |
| 21:10:47 | gmpreussner | dom96: yeah, i understand. it doesn't need to be a marketing stunt. we'll just write up the facts without any undertone, that's all |
| 21:10:50 | dom96 | Also I need ideas of what else to write about. |
| 21:11:28 | gmpreussner | write that the community is growing, that cool new libraries are under development, that there is a new forum that can also be searched |
| 21:11:51 | dom96 | Ahh yeah. The forum. |
| 21:12:08 | dom96 | I need people who are not used to these new things to tell me about them heh. |
| 21:17:08 | gmpreussner | Araq, dom96: not having _any_ breaking changes in the future is not a realistic goal |
| 21:17:22 | gmpreussner | i would limit it to "no breaking changes between major releases" |
| 21:17:36 | gmpreussner | that's how we handle it with our projects at work |
| 21:17:43 | dom96 | gmpreussner: That's what I meant. Major releases being 1.x vs. 2.x |
| 21:17:47 | gmpreussner | ok |
| 21:17:57 | dom96 | I should make that more explicit I suppose. |
| 21:18:12 | flaviu | dom96: https://gist.github.com/flaviut/e0b6450c28361d377d5a |
| 21:18:15 | gmpreussner | yeah, im writing it up |
| 21:18:55 | dom96 | I just updated it |
| 21:19:00 | flaviu | You're not getting paid per word, keep it as concise as possible. |
| 21:19:42 | dom96 | flaviu: That feels a bit bare. |
| 21:20:06 | flaviu | That was the goal. People don't want to read an essay, the want to read and understand quickly. |
| 21:21:52 | Araq | I agree with flaviu |
| 21:22:25 | dom96 | If that's the case then we may as well just put the changelog up. |
| 21:22:59 | dom96 | People need something to read. |
| 21:23:01 | flaviu | `git shortlog`! |
| 21:23:20 | dom96 | Something that they can understand otherwise they will simply close the tab too quickly. |
| 21:23:32 | dom96 | If they see a big list of changes they will do that. |
| 21:23:45 | dom96 | You may be only interested in them because you are invested in the project. |
| 21:23:48 | dom96 | Others will not be. |
| 21:24:01 | dom96 | They want to hear the generic stuff. |
| 21:24:09 | dom96 | "These things were done to improve speed ..." |
| 21:26:37 | gmpreussner | i added my suggested changes in the comments: https://gist.github.com/dom96/ff0dda49764da1e36e1c |
| 21:27:05 | gmpreussner | flaviu: short and concise is good, but i find yours too short. |
| 21:27:26 | gmpreussner | the release notes are useful for existing users of nim, but they must be aimed primarily at people who do not use or know nim yet |
| 21:27:45 | gmpreussner | as such we need to convey that the language is under VERY active development with tons of cool shit being added every release |
| 21:28:36 | gmpreussner | dom96: in "look at latest benchmarks" add an actual link to the benchmarks |
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| 21:31:16 | dom96 | gmpreussner: can you gist that? |
| 21:31:25 | dom96 | Have to reformat it otherwise... |
| 21:32:05 | flaviu | dom96: use vim? |
| 21:32:28 | gmpreussner | dom96: there's not much formatting in there. just copy/paste and touch up the headline and the three highlights |
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| 21:33:09 | dom96 | There is. The lines will be longer than 80 characters. |
| 21:33:33 | flaviu | dom96: You manually trim it down to 80 chars? |
| 21:33:39 | gmpreussner | i would probably piggyback even more existing nim features on top of these release notes. if any significant improvements were made in any of the existing components, lets identify the most popular ones and include those in the text as well. |
| 21:33:40 | flaviu | In vim, that's gq |
| 21:34:06 | dom96 | flaviu: Yes. I don't use vim. |
| 21:34:07 | flaviu | dom96: https://gist.github.com/flaviut/1446ccb5a1e99981de7f |
| 21:34:28 | flaviu | Although the last clause of the last sentence is a fragment |
| 21:35:13 | gmpreussner | remember, at this stage of the project, release notes are not just telling that feature XYZ was changed, it must also indirectly inform unknowing users of what nim's capabilities are. |
| 21:35:30 | gmpreussner | once there are a million nim users, we can focus on line item build upgrade notes |
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| 21:42:38 | dom96 | What cool projects should I mention? |
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| 21:43:16 | gmpreussner | i don't know. surely there must be some? |
| 21:43:32 | gmpreussner | when were the last release notes posted? |
| 21:43:36 | gmpreussner | i mean how long ago? |
| 21:43:52 | dom96 | October 19th |
| 21:43:57 | Araq | ask notfowl when he's around. he usually has lots of cool stuff |
| 21:44:25 | Araq | or take a look at what gradha is doing |
| 21:46:45 | dom96 | Meh, let's not name any. |
| 21:55:38 | flaviu | Website breaks on iphone: https://www.modern.ie/en-us/screenshots#http%3A%2F%2Fnim-lang.org%2F |
| 21:57:17 | dts|pokeball | everything breaks on iphone |
| 21:57:20 | dts|pokeball | cause iphone |
| 21:58:00 | flaviu | Lets avoid flaming |
| 21:58:03 | flaviu | http://www.browserstack.com/screenshots/d0559b276ce127048fa52225c3117d066ef6777d/ios_iPhone-5S_7.0_portrait.jpg |
| 21:58:20 | Araq | yeah it also breaks on my smartphone |
| 21:58:28 | Araq | and *that* is really an issue ;-) |
| 21:59:41 | dts|pokeball | sorry flaviu |
| 21:59:44 | flaviu | .slideshow needs a clearfix |
| 21:59:52 | flaviu | err, #slideshow |
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| 22:04:54 | Araq | flaviu: you have to be more specific for me |
| 22:05:36 | flaviu | add `#slideshow {overflow: auto;zoom: 1;}` to the css |
| 22:06:20 | flaviu | But that doesn't work, it just makes it disappear |
| 22:06:35 | flaviu | weird |
| 22:08:11 | flaviu | ah, absolute position has 0px as the default hight |
| 22:08:26 | flaviu | why filwit used absolute positioning, I don't understand |
| 22:08:43 | dom96 | I wrote a bit about Nimble. |
| 22:10:13 | flaviu | anyway, add don't bother with the clearfix. Just add `height: 1000px` to #slideshow |
| 22:10:30 | flaviu | something something broken windows something |
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| 22:23:28 | onionhammer | wheres the nim bot announcements about commits |
| 22:24:02 | Araq | onionhammer: these are gone. we need nimbuild... |
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| 22:31:33 | Araq | hi zedronar welcome |
| 22:31:56 | zedronar | hi Araq, thanks for the welcome |
| 22:32:58 | zedronar | I was trying to decide between Rust and Nim for my next hobby programming language |
| 22:33:18 | zedronar | seems like Nim's syntax is easier for newcomers, am I right? |
| 22:33:46 | Araq | that's what most people think if you count lifetime annotations as syntax |
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| 22:46:13 | zedronar | what you mean? |
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| 23:02:10 | flaviu | zedronar: He's making fun of rust, unfortunately. Please just ignore that part. |
| 23:04:54 | zedronar | flaviu: haha, ok |
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| 23:10:32 | Araq | no. I am not making fun of Rust at all. |
| 23:10:51 | Araq | on the contrary. |
| 23:12:02 | Araq | lifetime annotations are an inherent part of Rust and I wouldn't count them as "syntax" anymore than I count type annotations as syntax. These things surely have a syntax, but that's not where the complexity comes from. |
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| 23:16:44 | flaviu | I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Every part of the language is syntax. type annotations are syntax, lifetime annotations are syntax, if-else is syntax. |
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| 23:18:40 | dom96 | onionhammer: I've got a NimBuild resurrection donation jar if you wanna throw some dollars in there. |
| 23:18:43 | dom96 | :P |
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| 23:19:08 | Araq | ok, then let me put it differently: instead of asking whether Nim's syntax is easier to learn than Rust's, the better question to ask is whether Nim's type system is easier to learn than Rust's. |
| 23:19:39 | dom96 | zedronar: I would say Nim's syntax is both easier, more expressive and more elegant than Rust's. |
| 23:19:48 | dom96 | The semantics are also much easier to grasp. |
| 23:20:11 | zedronar | dom96: Awesome. I'm annoyed by Rust complexity. |
| 23:20:25 | Araq | and even this is misleading since a "type system" is not everything. |
| 23:21:43 | zedronar | Araq: Simplify it even more. If a beginner tells you that he only wants to learn Rust or Nim. Which one would you recommend and why? |
| 23:22:25 | Araq | that is the question that you ask the inventor of Nim? |
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| 23:24:35 | gmpreussner | does nim have an elevator pitch yet? :) |
| 23:24:37 | zedronar | Araq: Good point. |
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| 23:25:40 | gmpreussner | zedronar: i looked at Rust as the savior of my existence, but i gave up on it. i was going to give up programming altogether and become farmer, but then i stumbled upon nim :) |
| 23:26:29 | gmpreussner | Rust is probably more stable at this point (they have some serious dollars behind their project), but just by looking at the documentation you can already tell that nim is going to be totally awesome. |
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| 23:27:28 | zedronar | gmpreussner: Great. I'll give it a try then. |
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