<< 29-12-2014 >>

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02:09:11	Araq	Varriount: http://nim-lang.org/download/docs-0.10.2.zip
02:09:22	Araq	still no git tag though
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03:07:51	gmpreussner__	is there a guide on using gdb with nim? i'm having a hard time :|
03:08:09	gmpreussner__	i'm compiling with: nim c -r --debugger:off --debuginfo --lineDir:on
03:08:51	gmpreussner__	when i run a simple hello world program, gdb pauses inside system.nim and then bad things happen
03:09:01	flaviu	os?
03:09:05	gmpreussner__	Arch
03:09:13	flaviu	hmm, dunno. Works for me
03:09:31	gmpreussner__	do you run any custom parameters on the gdb command line?
03:09:59	flaviu	are you trying to run gdb nim c -r ....?
03:10:13	gmpreussner__	no, for now just a simple hello world program i compiled
03:10:21	gmpreussner__	debugging the compiler would be my next step
03:11:12	flaviu	It really does work for me
03:11:18	flaviu	perhaps you can post the gdb output?
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03:11:33	gmpreussner__	yep one sec
03:14:39	gmpreussner__	ugh, i can't copy the output. i'm running this through Kate, and the output window won't let me
03:19:29	gmpreussner__	flaviu: sent you a pm
03:20:06	flaviu	gmpreussner__: Does that picture have personal information? I'd like to keep things in the logs.
03:20:52	gmpreussner__	yeah, keep it private
03:21:11	gmpreussner__	expires in 30 minutes anyway. we can discuss the details here
03:21:16	flaviu	well, I see you set a breakpoint. Isn't that intentional?
03:21:38	gmpreussner__	i think my editor sets a breakpoint on startup
03:22:04	gmpreussner__	but then it hits a segfault right away
03:22:22	gmpreussner__	and when i skip to the next line, the program shuts down
03:22:45	flaviu	Yes, that's because you try to do `p setvbuf(stdout...)`
03:23:07	flaviu	type `c` instead of all that, and I'm sure it'd work
03:24:17	gmpreussner__	hmmk... i need to find out where that comes from and if it can be disabled
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09:46:03	wan_	congrats on the new release!
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09:49:00	wan_	(can we get a tag on github?)
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10:19:43	def-	https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2qp8xb/nim_formerly_nimrod_0102_released/
10:19:48	def-	https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8809215
10:20:08	dv-	is there an example of overloading []?
10:20:32	def-	dv-: should work just as with any proc?
10:20:34	dv-	i have proc `[]`(g : Grid, x : Slice[int]) : int = g.grid[x.b * g.sx + x.a]
10:20:51	dv-	but when i do grid[1..2] i get grid.nim(35, 13) Error: index types do not match
10:20:52	def-	I think it should just take 1 argument
10:21:07	def-	ah, wait a moment
10:22:17	dv-	it works ok with `()`
10:22:49	def-	hm, I've never done it with a slice, only this: https://github.com/def-/nimrod-unsorted/blob/master/bitmap.nim#L38-L48
10:23:24	dv-	oh you can have two arguments?
10:23:51	dv-	how do you call that? foo[a,b]?
10:23:52	def-	yes, and img[x,y] works
10:23:56	dv-	cool
10:26:19	dv-	hm
10:26:21	dv-	Error: illformed AST: grid[1, 2]
10:27:20	def-	strange, my file compiles
10:27:26	def-	and works
10:27:39	def-	also with slices
10:27:59	def-	can you post the full example somewhere?
10:28:26	def-	The new documentation design looks really nice
10:29:49	dyu	yea, new doc is def-nitely nice
10:30:00	dv-	https://gist.github.com/dvolk/31d87d4edb536aa330f7
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10:34:32	def-	dv-: ok, it works if Grid is an object instead of tuple
10:35:04	def-	sounds like a bug
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10:43:31	Araq	argh.
10:43:38	vbtt	hello friends
10:43:40	Araq	how quick are you guys?
10:43:50	vbtt	congrats on the new release
10:43:58	vbtt	excited about 1.0 :D
10:44:01	Araq	I'm doing some smooth incremental release here ...
10:44:29	vbtt	the new site is kick-ass too
10:44:50	vbtt	the carousel circles on the right are a bit confusing, but anyway.
10:45:45	vbtt	the new manual styles are pretty.
10:46:02	vbtt	everything is looking shipshape
10:47:12	Araq	and the forum is async :-)
10:47:27	vbtt	wow sweet
10:47:37	vbtt	i still gotta check out the async stuff
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10:48:03	vbtt	would like to do a blog post about it if i can find time
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10:48:43	dv-	def-: could be. thanks for the help
10:48:54	def-	Really happy with the new release, good job guys
10:49:03	Araq	well it's not complete
10:49:17	Araq	git tag is missing, merging devel into master, building the binaries etc ...
10:49:27	Araq	I'm working on it
10:50:21	Araq	I shouldn't have updated the website just yet ...
10:50:40	def-	Oh, oops.
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10:51:05	def-	I could remove the posts on r/programming and HN and resubmit later, if you want, Araq
10:51:16	def-	I assumed it's done since the news post was there
10:51:31	wan_	it's already on the front page of HN
10:51:47	Araq	just add a note that we are introducing "release days"
10:52:00	Araq	so a release takes a day
10:52:09	Araq	;-)
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10:53:41	Araq	did I update news.xml? cause I am quite sure I didn't
10:54:00	Araq	that would have been the official signal ...
10:58:28	vbtt	hmm so why does async not use kqueue on freebsd?
10:59:12	vbtt	the doc says it uses 'select' on 'other'
10:59:32	Araq	because nobody implemented it
11:00:47	vbtt	ah ok
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11:01:27	vbtt	so the async stuff is officially complete and part of 1.0?
11:01:34	vbtt	(unlike the user defined type classes)
11:02:15	Araq	no, at least the docs are not complete
11:02:29	Araq	I'm sure it needs some polish
11:02:45	Araq	but it will be officially in 1.0, yes
11:04:03	vbtt	nice
11:04:17	vbtt	that's a compelling feature
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11:13:04	vbtt	so if i understand the async stuff correctly - it doesn't use coroutines?
11:13:32	Araq	quite sure the implementation counts as coroutines
11:14:45	vbtt	who wrote the async stuff again? dom96?
11:15:51	Araq	yes
11:20:26	Araq	please test it: http://nim-lang.org/download/nim-0.10.2.zip
11:23:44	Araq	hrm ... I can never remember how tagging a release works ...
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11:25:41	dom96	Araq: git tag -a v0.10.2
11:26:08	dom96	Araq: Hopefully this will teach you not to upload the website before having the binaries ready...
11:26:14	Araq	brb
11:29:02	dom96	but hey, we're doing well on HN :)
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12:00:12	dom96	flaviu: That looks like a bad bug... :(
12:01:34	dom96	The nature of releases I guess.
12:02:55	flaviu	dom96: /r/nim is private
12:03:25	dom96	oh thanks
12:03:32	dom96	fixed
12:03:32	flaviu	You should make /r/nimrod private and add a redirect to /r/nim in the comment
12:03:43	dom96	Nah, there are useful links there.
12:03:44	flaviu	no, don't do that
12:03:46	flaviu	yeah
12:04:02	dom96	flaviu: Take a look at the real time view on analytis :D
12:04:08	flaviu	Can't you restrict posts to a certian list of people?
12:04:33	flaviu	dom96: Have you deployed my PR for GA on the docs?
12:04:34	dom96	I just restricted it for everyone.
12:04:42	dom96	flaviu: nope
12:04:56	dom96	it's still not merged
12:05:27	flaviu	https://www.google.com/analytics/web/?hl=en#realtime/rt-overview/a48159761w79605192p82343045/
12:06:44	flaviu	It could have been posted a little later on social media. Most the US is still asleep
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12:07:09	dom96	Nah. Timing is perfect.
12:07:25	dom96	If the US was awake other stories would have overshadowed it
12:08:22	dom96	Araq: I can add the google analytics to the docs if you want
12:08:35	dom96	first pizza though
12:09:27	Araq	dom96: no wait
12:12:21	Araq	er ... did somebody add a tag already?
12:12:50	dom96	You apparently did
12:13:02	dom96	https://github.com/Araq/Nim/releases/tag/v0.10.2
12:13:43	Araq	hrm git is a git
12:13:50	Araq	told me it didn't work
12:13:54	flaviu	Araq: You can delete a tag without any forks messing up
12:14:05	Araq	meh it's fine
12:14:37	dom96	https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8809449
12:14:46	dom96	Could we do that? He has a good point I think.
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12:18:29	Araq	I don't understand his point
12:19:06	flaviu	Araq: He wants a "portable" version of nim he can put on a flash drive
12:19:40	Araq	install it to your hd once. move it to flash and carry it around.
12:20:46	flaviu	Araq: That's not perfect for the reasons he outlines in his comment.
12:20:47	flaviu	Where is the download link for windows? I can't find it on the downloads page.
12:21:51	Araq	Varriount will build them later
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12:22:13	dom96	I renamed our twitter to @nim_lang
12:22:39	Araq	flaviu: I don't see where he outlines these reasons
12:23:20	flaviu	Mostly that installers dump crap all over the filesystem and then 99% of the time are unable to find and clean it up on uninstallation.
12:23:37	Triplefox	I don't think there is a useful solution
12:23:50	Araq	the installer puts everything in the directory you tell it to use
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12:24:05	Triplefox	Every time i try a portable app it loses functionality because of lower integration
12:24:15	Araq	afterwards you can move the directory around as much as you want
12:24:55	flaviu	Araq: That's the way it should be, yet that's not the way it actually works.
12:25:20	Araq	why not?
12:26:02	flaviu	dunno, ask the installer companies.
12:26:51	Araq	the installer has nothing to do with it. we don't use the registry nor do we use mingw's installer
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12:27:47	Triplefox	Does nim work if no environment variables are set
12:27:56	flaviu	lol, hacker news has banned me again.
12:28:04	flaviu	I have no idea why.
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12:29:49	Araq	Triplefox: we ship a start.bat that sets up the environment as required by mingw
12:30:02	Araq	nim itself doesn't require it
12:30:24	gokr	Great work guys
12:30:37	gokr	dom96: Underscore in twitter name? Is that common?
12:30:56	flaviu	Maybe I wasn't banned, I don't understand their system.
12:31:32	Triplefox	I'm pretty sure that environment is the main source of install pollution on win, but it doesn't seem avoidable if you want easy access from any shell
12:31:43	Triplefox	Speaking generally
12:32:10	Araq	I see no "install pollution" on windows anymore than I see it on e.g. Ubuntu
12:32:13	dom96	gokr: @nimlang is taken
12:32:18	dom96	gokr: Do you have any better suggestions?
12:32:31	Araq	and that's polite.
12:32:46	gokr	dom96: Nope :)
12:32:49	Araq	usually stuff on windows installs and works and on linux ... well ...
12:33:11	gokr	Just wondered. Wouldn't nim-lang be better though?
12:33:25	Triplefox	Many of the dev tools i encounter on win say "set your path and this env var"
12:33:42	Triplefox	Linux hides more if that through the package system
12:33:45	dom96	gokr: not allowed dashes in twitter usernames
12:33:53	gokr	Ok
12:34:16	Araq	Triplefox: which requires admin rights ... since it touches /usr/bin ... no thanks
12:34:52	Triplefox	I guess that isn't the same as installer generated which the op was pointing at
12:36:16	Araq	how do I tell git that the URL changed?
12:36:31	Araq	git remote set-url ?
12:37:23	flaviu	Araq: git remote --help
12:37:24	flaviu	git remote set-url [--push] <name> <newurl> [<oldurl>]
12:37:37	Araq	well yes, I can read
12:37:49	Araq	but I'm afraid
12:38:16	flaviu	if you screw up, just clone again.
12:38:36	Araq	why does it need <name>?
12:38:52	profan	so you can have different remotes if you wish
12:38:55	flaviu	... because you can have more than one remote?
12:39:45	dom96	Araq: Remember git push origin master?
12:39:49	dom96	Araq: origin is the remote name
12:40:15	Araq	so I better leave it as that
12:44:06	gokr	What a pity that the benchmark writeup didn't include some "comments" on Nim (since he didn't write that code).
12:44:15	gokr	Otherwise its a very good article.
12:49:15	def-	gokr: I guess you could write something about Nim and make a pull request. At least he merged all my code pull requests
12:49:23	def-	(not sure though)
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12:49:45	def-	I think the numbers and the source code speak for nim on their own
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12:53:40	vbtt	hi dom96, i have a question about the async stuff
12:54:31	dom96	ask away
12:54:46	Araq	so I merged devel into master
12:54:56	Araq	now updating csources ...
12:56:03	gokr	Varriount: Do you need me to do something with the Linux slaves btw?
12:56:05	vbtt	dom96: i'm curious how the await macro works
12:56:19	dom96	Araq: just merge devel into master in csources
12:56:22	vbtt	does it basically transform the rest of the function into a lambda callback?
12:56:23	dom96	Maybe
12:57:00	vbtt	rather, a closure?
12:57:24	dom96	vbtt: it gets transformed into a closure iterator
12:57:29	vbtt	ah ok
12:57:35	minciue	dom96: hi again
12:58:25	Araq	dom96: why?
12:58:27	vbtt	so one instance of await will wrap the rest of the function into a closure iterator. and two occurrences of await will generate two closure interators, one nested in the other?
12:58:37	dom96	Araq: nah, nvm.
13:00:27	minciue	I was looking at https://github.com/fowlmouth/nake and wondering what place it has in the nim ecosystem
13:00:40	dom96	minciue: hi
13:00:49	minciue	dom96, it seems to me like the build command in nimble & the nimble test command I was thinkinng of implementing might be better handled by nake
13:00:58	dom96	vbtt: no. Await gets transformed into a yield.
13:01:17	vbtt	ah i see
13:01:30	vbtt	ok, it makes sense now.
13:01:38	dom96	vbtt: You can get the macro to echo out the code that is generated
13:01:40	vbtt	it's like python 3's asyncio then?
13:01:52	vbtt	basically every yield point is explicit
13:01:56	dom96	vbtt: There is a or something like that in asyncdispatch echo toStrLit(x)
13:02:36	minciue	I guess I’m wondering if it would eventually be ok for nimble to assume nake is already installed and generate a nakefile with some sensible defaults
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13:10:35	gokr	19 comments already
13:13:56	gokr	Triplefox: A comment spot on I think
13:14:04	gokr	(presuming you are chipsy :))
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13:22:30	dom96	Araq: We need to change the twitter username on the website
13:22:52	minciue	woah, the new HTML documentation is so much nicer. congrats to whoever did this
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13:24:31	flaviu	minciue: boydgreenfield, https://github.com/Araq/Nim/pull/1764
13:26:08	minciue	nicely done
13:27:29	Araq	so I was able to push csources master but merging master into devel fails with conflicts
13:28:05	Araq	can I remove the devel and bigbreak branches and re-introduce devel?
13:29:15	dom96	You can probably just use -f with the csources repo (i.e. --force)
13:29:21	dom96	and rebuild the repo completely.
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13:30:46	flaviu	yep, no one will be pulling from csources
13:30:51	flaviu	just cloning.
13:32:24	gokr	flaviu: Really? :)
13:32:54	dom96	I shall do it
13:33:09	flaviu	Well, once you've bootstrapped the compiler, you don't need it any more.
13:33:35	flaviu	It's a marginal useage of the repo, no point in worrying about it.
13:38:09	gokr	dom96: The forum says "MrX replied 1 hour ago" although the "reply" is actually the initial post. So better would be "posted" in that case?
13:38:23	*	gokr in nitpicking mode
13:38:29	dom96	gokr: sure. PRs welcome ;)
13:38:32	gokr	hehe
13:39:07	flaviu	You could replace the word "reply" with "posted" in all cases
13:39:40	dom96	true
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14:17:20	dom96	Damn. These new docs are really sexy.
14:18:15	flaviu	Raleway is a really nice font
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14:21:58	dom96	indeed
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14:43:38	valberg	Apparently nim-lang.org is blocked in Norwegian trains due to pornography: https://hushfile.it/54a1682a801c1#cI9mmhPM_K5MaXLh-MdvzJYhFqHvEIx9LMeMd_oz
14:47:14	dom96	interesting
14:47:41	dom96	valberg: Any chance you can report that?
14:47:43	*	saml joined #nim
14:50:31	dom96	valberg: or at least get me an email address I can contact?
14:51:46	*	yglukhov__ joined #nim
14:54:11	flaviu	dom96: [email protected]
14:54:24	*	yglukhov_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
14:54:55	dom96	flaviu: How did you get that?
14:55:45	flaviu	The train company is "NSB-KONSERNET", and from what I can decipher of the Norwegian, they have a helpdesk.
14:55:56	flaviu	"Servicedesk"
14:56:04	*	bjz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
14:56:34	flaviu	but valberg didn't post the page, so I can't figure out the url. I therefore googled NSB-KONSERNET and found a link that says "contact" on the first page I found
14:57:00	dom96	There might be a different email for their internet blocking service desk though
14:58:46	*	z1y joined #nim
14:59:16	gokr	Someone did write about porn block on the hackernews thread too
15:00:21	dom96	yeah. Hrm.
15:00:27	flaviu	It'd probably be best if we could figure out who provides these filter lists
15:00:32	dom96	Was http://nim-lang.org a porn site a couple of years ago?
15:02:09	flaviu	Nope, looks like it's been completely unused since 2002
15:02:23	dom96	What about in 2002?
15:02:52	flaviu	Well, the website I'm checking only started logging since 2002
15:04:03	*	gour quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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15:11:54	gokr	But it might be a brilliant move to get Nim discovered - get a former porn site and host it there ;)
15:14:02	valberg	dom96, flaviu: sorry - had to get of the train - but yeah it's just nim-lang.org (more likely the ip address I think)
15:14:25	valberg	I can report that it is not blocked at Oslo Airport though :)
15:14:45	flaviu	valberg: I was referring to the "Servicedesk" link, if you can post that.
15:14:54	dom96	In that case it's Digital Ocean's fault for giving us an IP previously used for pornography :P
15:15:05	flaviu	That makes sense
15:15:14	flaviu	can't you renew the IP?
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15:16:32	dom96	I don't think that's a good idea.
15:16:38	dom96	Now that ~200 people are on the website concurrently
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15:17:35	z1y	is nim an "upgrade" of Python? I read some text that gives me a sense that if I like python then Nim would be a next step...
15:17:37	valberg	flaviu: sorry - since it's not blocked here I can't get to that page again :(
15:18:59	dom96	You can think of it that way.
15:19:04	dom96	It is kind of like Python with static typing.
15:19:21	dom96	If you like Python then you should definitely give it a try.
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15:23:15	StefanSalewski	Great work, the new release!
15:23:20	*	Sphax joined #nim
15:24:30	StefanSalewski	From the main page, IRC channel is still nimlang, which is invitation only? Yes, I know, pull request is easy, idlework.
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15:25:17	StefanSalewski	Unfortunately for nimble I get again this old error: c2nim.nim(11, 33) Error: cannot open 'llstream'
15:25:27	dom96	StefanSalewski: #nimlang redirects to here
15:25:46	dom96	StefanSalewski: Why would you get that for nimble? Nimble doesn't use c2nim?
15:26:04	StefanSalewski	Not a problem for me, I can fix it, goran explained how to do it in his blog.
15:26:29	valberg	is Nim still a PITA to get working on Mac OSX? I tried once (can't remember which version of nimrod, but it was fairly recent) and it was really hard - that is I didn't get it working :(
15:26:57	z1y	dom96: no I dislike python. I'm interested in nim. I'm learning nim so that I don't need to talk about python. I also love to see some #pascal stuff in nim :)
15:27:28	StefanSalewski	I deleted .nimble dirrectory, installed nimble from git as described in manual, and then did "nimble install c2nim"
15:27:37	*	filippo joined #nim
15:27:38	dom96	valberg: It shouldn't be that hard.
15:27:49	dom96	valberg: Bootstrapping should be as easy as on other operating systems
15:27:52	*	filippo is now known as filcuc
15:27:58	filcuc	Hi all
15:28:07	dom96	hi filcuc
15:28:30	filcuc	hey dom96 ;)
15:28:33	dom96	StefanSalewski: Ahh, well that's a c2nim issue not a nimble issue.
15:29:38	dv-	nim i crashes when i do 1.0.low
15:29:41	dom96	filcuc: saw my comment on github?
15:29:58	StefanSalewski	OK, I thought it was a general nimble problem. So it is only for c2nim package?
15:30:00	dom96	dv-: unfortunately the interpreter isn't very stable, but please report it.
15:30:19	filcuc	dom96: yep already replied
15:30:35	dom96	StefanSalewski: sure, it's trying to build it and it's failing.
15:30:37	dom96	StefanSalewski: Try installing another package if you don't believe me ;)
15:30:51	valberg	dom96: I was basically trying to use the homebrew installer - the recipe for nimrod was maybe a bit off
15:31:20	dom96	filcuc: That doesn't sound ideal.
15:31:34	dom96	filcuc: You will need to update both repos manually...
15:32:19	dom96	valberg: You'd be better off trying to follow the instructions on the website :)
15:32:36	filcuc	basically the nimble package point to a different repo, in which the .nimble file exists (that repo is just a copy of the one i shared in the forum)
15:32:36	filcuc	the reason is that i want to keep the development in the DOtherSide repo for both D and Nim, but given that the i cannot clone a subdirectory of a repo i just created a new one with the copy of the NimQml subdirectory
15:32:48	StefanSalewski	OK thanks, dom, I will fix it manually for now. And with the nimlang irc channel, I am kicked off with web access. I have to use #nim which is is listed on forum page.
15:34:13	filcuc	dom96: i know but for know this fit my development model. the other option is to use a git submodule. But this split isn't so bad and gives to the nimble users of my package a stable release
15:34:36	filcuc	dom96: so i can update at each releas
15:34:39	filcuc	e
15:34:55	StefanSalewski	Bye -- have to test my packages with new rerlease... (func keyword...)
15:35:03	*	StefanSalewski quit ()
15:35:15	dom96	filcuc: alright merged
15:36:03	dom96	Also, i'd strongly encourage you to license it as something other than GPLv3
15:37:36	filcuc	dom96: i cannot
15:37:47	dom96	why?
15:38:06	filcuc	dom96: i've to study better the Qt license, but i think i cannot.
15:38:12	filcuc	i'm using the Qt private headers
15:38:32	dom96	Why are you using those?
15:39:00	filcuc	becuse i need them :) basically for generating a dynamic QObject
15:39:06	filcuc	and using the QMetaObjectBuilder class
15:39:33	filcuc	for adding signals and slots dynamically
15:40:04	dom96	They have a special exception in the GPL license that they use it seems.
15:40:19	dom96	The problem with you using GPL for your wrapper is that I won't be able to use it in anything that isn't GPL
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15:40:40	filcuc	sadly i know it
15:41:12	filcuc	but until i don't have a clear view of the license i can use the GPLv3 seems the best option
15:42:01	filcuc	a nice one could be LGPL but i think it doesn't include the option for using the private headers
15:42:24	filcuc	i should talk to the go-qml guys
15:42:33	filcuc	that are basically doing the same
15:43:07	filcuc	(and they're also using the private headers)
15:43:49	filcuc	giving a look at https://github.com/go-qml/qml
15:43:56	filcuc	they're using a LGPLv3
15:46:40	filcuc	for sure i'm going to relicense the bindings to the most open license
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15:48:06	dom96	filcuc: yes, please do talk to them.
15:52:17	gokr	filcuc: Great that you dug into this btw.
15:53:16	*	gokr quit (Quit: Leaving.)
15:53:22	filcuc	gokr: do you mean the license issues?
16:01:06	*	Demos joined #nim
16:04:08	filcuc	dom96: ok i contacted Gustavo Niemeyer hope to get an answer soon
16:04:20	dom96	filcuc: cool
16:04:45	dom96	filcuc: I'm curious: you've basically coded the same thing in both Nim and D. How do you think the two languages compare? :)
16:06:03	filcuc	dom96: i created a common C/C++ layer and than written the "otherside" in Nim and D..well i tell you the truth
16:06:47	filcuc	i started with D because i discovered it before
16:07:10	filcuc	but if i discovered nim before i would not have written the D part :D
16:08:37	*	dymk joined #nim
16:09:00	dymk	> "The following procs are now available at compile-time:"
16:09:01	dymk	> system.writeFile
16:09:04	dymk	Interesting!
16:09:07	filcuc	D has is more object oriented and has solid compile time features
16:09:08	filcuc	i mean typetraits and compile time execution
16:09:08	filcuc	nim is not inferior however right now there're no typetraits
16:09:41	dymk	As a D programmer, I would like to know some more about Nim's CTFE compares to D's
16:09:41	filcuc	and i'll add a better syntax with some macros (but write them is not trivial)
16:11:31	*	kapil__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
16:11:48	filcuc	for the object oriented thing nim miss some kind of super statement. I read today in the nim 0.10.2 release about the procCall but it's not documented
16:11:54	dom96	filcuc: What kind of type traits do you mean?
16:12:22	dom96	dymk: Does D have procedural macros?
16:12:41	filcuc	like having the types of a proc
16:12:46	filcuc	(i mean at compile time)
16:12:57	dymk	dom96: One can execute arbitrary D functions at compile time, is that comparable?
16:13:20	filcuc	dom96: no
16:13:23	Araq	dymk: no you can't. the limitations are comparable to Nim's.
16:13:26	filcuc	dymk: well not arbitrary
16:13:51	dymk	filcuc, yeah, perhaps I should use "weakly pure" to that
16:14:06	Araq	Nim uses a bytecode VM to run it at compiletime, D uses an AST based interpreter
16:14:15	dymk	Araq, Alright, thanks
16:15:09	dymk	Now I tried Nim a few months ago, and found that going through the tutorials was hard because I'd hit an ICE really often; does this 0.10.2 have a lot of internal compiler fixes?
16:15:17	*	dts|pokeball quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
16:15:42	Demos	dymk, yes. ICE should be much more rare
16:15:47	dymk	great
16:15:49	Araq	dymk: we fixed as many bugs as we could
16:15:57	Araq	but please report these things
16:16:13	dymk	sure
16:16:13	Araq	though usually I already know the bug ;-)
16:16:31	Demos	ICE are fixed pretty fast in the devel branch
16:17:02	dymk	And then, because Nim compiles down to C code, I imagine I can get the compiler to build for, say, the m68k arch; has anyone been doing stuff like this with Nim?
16:17:15	filcuc	for my bindings right now i've to create a macro for extracting the types of a proc and returning an int vector.
16:17:39	filcuc	i've already write some parts but for example D has already them built-in
16:17:43	Araq	filcuc: types API for macros is planned. PRs welcome, it's not hard to do but nobody did it.
16:18:04	Araq	usually all that people can do is complain :P
16:19:28	filcuc	Araq: i know but i prefear to work on the bindings :)
16:23:52	dymk	The '$' operator, is that performing an allocation to convert its operand into a string?
16:24:39	Araq	dymk: yes. we'll eventually get rid of some of these via TR macros. but yes.
16:24:52	dymk	TR == term rewrite?
16:25:22	Araq	we're not in the "omg it allocates! burn it with fire" camp as our GC is not technology from the 70ies.
16:25:29	dymk	mm
16:26:52	dymk	But, is there a reason that you went with "convert to string by allocation" instead of just spitting the value out directly, using some method specific to the type (a-la how printf works)?
16:27:46	*	bjz joined #nim
16:27:54	dymk	Perhaps that doesn't make sense in the context of nim, though
16:30:08	Araq	you seem to think there is some alternative here. there isn't.
16:30:43	Araq	we can implement c++'s "small string optimization" if we want to though.
16:32:28	*	bjz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
16:34:09	EXetoC	input buffer?
16:34:35	dymk	Hm, yeah, I assumed you could do something like D's writeln (which is a variadic but preserves types)
16:35:09	*	[CBR]Unspoken quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
16:35:46	dymk	I'm not familiar with how Nim does templates/generics though
16:35:48	EXetoC	what do you mean directly? we do have basic formatting, which also spits out a string
16:36:15	*	[CBR]Unspoken joined #nim
16:36:42	*	profan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
16:37:47	dymk	EXetoC, the function signature looks like: `writeln(ARGS...)(ARGS args)`, and can be called like `writeln("Thing: ", 1, false);`, so ARGS is a `tuple(string, int, bool)`
16:38:22	dymk	then some loop in writeln calls writeln_string, writeln_int, writeln_bool etc for each specific type
16:39:24	EXetoC	yes
16:40:06	dymk	but nothing analogous could be done in Nim to avoid the allocation all together?
16:40:30	dymk	I understand that the GC in nim is fast, but no code runs faster than any code
16:41:20	ldlework	no code runs faster than any code?
16:42:18	dymk	zero instructions will execute faster than one or more instructions
16:42:38	EXetoC	and it doesn't allocate?
16:42:58	flaviu	gc require more code than just malloc(), free()
16:43:01	EXetoC	what buffer does it use and how big is it?
16:43:06	*	filippo joined #nim
16:43:25	ldlework	dymk: ah okay, thanks for clarifying
16:43:37	*	filcuc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
16:43:39	dymk	EXetoC, honestly, writeln very well might, but as you can see it doesn't need to allocate
16:44:22	*	profan joined #nim
16:44:27	dymk	but I don't think that writeln allocates at this point in time, no
16:44:35	filippo	dom96: what is the correct whay to distribute a hybrid package like gtk3 or mine?
16:44:50	filippo	dom96: i mean one that depends on a C/C++ .so
16:45:39	EXetoC	dymk: what if a user-defined type is passed in? or a dynamically sized array
16:47:15	dymk	EXetoC, for dynamically sized array: it prints a literal "[", then each member (using writeln_{bool, int, etc}), then a literal ",", then finally a literal "]"
16:47:46	EXetoC	yes but you need a sufficiently large buffer so as to not have to allocate
16:47:58	dymk	why would you ever need a buffer?
16:48:02	dymk	you're printing to stdout
16:48:48	EXetoC	yes, and it needs to work with a buffer, does it not?
16:50:09	dymk	well, yes and no; the buffer is a statically allocated string (in the case of a user defined type, such as the type's name, like "MyStruct")
16:50:47	dymk	Else, it just behaves like printf: (if num == 0; printf("0"), if num == 1; printf("1"), etc)
16:51:27	dymk	writeln_bool might look like if arg == false; fprintf(stdout, "false"); else; fprintf(stdout, "true")
16:51:28	EXetoC	yes, but in many cases you can't determine the length of the buffer at compile-time because of dynamic arrays and such
16:51:48	dymk	Even in that case, you don't need to
16:51:54	dymk	(if you're printing to stdout)
16:52:05	dymk	(or any output buffer, really)
16:53:39	EXetoC	http://linux.die.net/man/2/write what else is there?
16:54:34	dymk	hm, lemme show with an example
16:54:51	dymk	write([1, 2, 3]) // write a dynamic array of ints
16:55:17	dymk	this, more or less, turns into (i'm ignoring the leading [, interm commas, and trailing ])
16:55:33	dymk	foreach(element; arr) write(element)
16:56:03	dymk	or if we want to be explicit about the types here, write_int(element)
16:56:35	EXetoC	and it is going to end up in a buffer in one way or another
16:57:05	dymk	Only if you want it to write to a buffer, but stdout just consumes what you give it and then returns
16:57:35	*	Jaood joined #nim
16:57:51	dymk	or write(2); it doesn't care about what you do with the buffer afterwards, nor does it modify the buffer, so you can allocate all your most elemental strings in the .data section
16:58:01	EXetoC	the write system call expects a buffer. I don't know how else you would do it
16:58:57	dymk	It does, but you don't have to allocate the buffer; you can print all possible numbers, floating or not, using the characters in "e+-.0123456789"
17:00:01	dymk	so the number 123 is printed using some recursion if you so desire, resulting in calls write("1"); write("2"); write("3"), where those strings are located in .data, and don't require a dynamic memory allocation
17:01:16	EXetoC	but write eventually does this surely: write(stdout, buffer, bufferSize)
17:02:02	EXetoC	it could work, *when* the size of the input is statically known
17:02:33	dymk	No, you can write any arbitrary number or primitive datatype using statically allocated buffers
17:02:35	ldlework	This is an interesting conversation
17:02:47	dymk	ldlework, thank you :) i'm enjoying it
17:02:51	ldlework	dymk: will you be around?
17:02:54	EXetoC	dymk: yes, so still only in some cases
17:02:56	ldlework	I haven't seen you before
17:03:05	EXetoC	and then with a ton of write calls
17:03:26	*	novist joined #nim
17:03:27	EXetoC	potentially at least
17:03:51	dymk	EXetoC, No, you can print any datatype in all cases, and it does require more write calls, but write() *does* use an internal buffer, so it's not slow
17:04:07	dom96	Interesting. The nim tutorial is now on the front page.
17:04:15	dom96	(of HN)
17:04:22	dymk	dom96, congrats!
17:04:34	EXetoC	dymk: yes, but I don't think that system calls are cheap
17:04:38	dymk	ldlework, yeah, I'll point my bouncer here, I'll be around
17:04:45	ldlework	dymk: cool
17:04:46	EXetoC	but someone might want to do it this way
17:04:51	ldlework	dymk: What kind of software do you write?
17:04:55	ldlework	dom96: seriously?!
17:05:07	ldlework	holy shit
17:05:11	dom96	ldlework: yeah, what is going on?
17:05:14	ldlework	everyone upvote!
17:05:25	ldlework	dom96: While I actually hate anyone that uses HackerNews seriously
17:05:37	ldlework	It is an incredibly valuable mindshare resource and we should take our presence there seriously
17:07:20	dom96	Indeed.
17:07:47	dymk	EXetoC, System calls aren't cheap, but it's trivial to write a simple wrapper that buffers some number of chars before calling write/puts/fputs (I think that these methods buffer anyways, so speed might not be an issue then even)
17:08:12	dymk	and the buffer there is statically known, so throw it in .bss and you're golden
17:09:00	dymk	ldlework, I write a pretty wide range of things, right now i'm getting ready for an internship as a kernel dev
17:09:06	ldlework	dymk: oh wow
17:09:16	dymk	latest project is a Ruby on Rails site that i hope makes a splash in a niche of the internet
17:09:21	ldlework	dymk: what do you think about Docker?
17:09:57	dymk	I haven't used it; my virtualization is done by buying more ultra-cheap VMs :P
17:10:21	dymk	It seems like it could be useful though
17:10:22	novist	i saw this today http://nim-by-example.github.io/oop_macro/ and cant help but wonder why the heck there is macro workaround for getting syntax which seems it should be the default.. any ideas?
17:10:34	def-	Looks like there
17:10:39	def-	's some interest in Nim now: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8810131
17:11:19	dymk	EXetoC, I hope I explained things well
17:11:52	def-	novist: I like the regular, non-OOP syntax more, because you can add methods to your objects elsewhere, not just all in one place
17:12:07	EXetoC	dymk: yep
17:12:30	novist	def- i guess you can still add them even if you use macro
17:12:55	EXetoC	I think something like write(buffer, x, y, z); would generally be good enough for people who actually care, but such an addition wouldn't hurt
17:13:04	novist	that last part weirds me out a lot because otherwise language seems to be very elegant and rational but this last bit is just weird
17:13:11	dom96	novist: OOP is not for everyone :)
17:13:28	dom96	The leaner the base language the better.
17:13:34	novist	sure, but nothing mandates one to use OOP right?
17:13:45	def-	novist: i think it's not a problem since a feature like this can easily be added as a macro, so it doesn't need to be in the language itself
17:13:49	novist	how is it writing more boilerplate code leaner?
17:13:52	dom96	The fact that you can extend the language to include such syntax is the beauty of Nim
17:14:17	novist	that i totally agree with hehe
17:14:24	novist	actually i know no language that could do this
17:15:57	ldlework	I definitely feel like oop could be a legitimate stdlib library
17:16:06	ldlework	If we cleaned it up and expanded it a bit
17:18:20	EXetoC	dymk: one additional function call per generated character then? if a stringification proc for a user-defined type can't be inlined
17:18:28	EXetoC	but allocating is much slower in comparison
17:21:11	filippo	Idlework: regarding oop how can someone implement a sort of "super" keyworkd
17:21:12	dom96	ldlework: sure, that can still be done.
17:21:32	dymk	EXetoC, yeah, it's the speed tradeoff between buffering a char and allocating; allocation will always be slower
17:21:48	dymk	the buffering function can most likely be inlined though, but i guess that's up to the compiler
17:21:51	dom96	novist: We can in fact include this macro in the stdlib. Nobody has complained enough to make this happen yet though.
17:22:03	ldlework	filippo: I have no idea.
17:22:25	dom96	novist: Araq is the one who ultimately decides these things so you have to convince him :)
17:22:29	dymk	does Nim have a templating library available? a-la erb or https://github.com/dymk/temple
17:22:48	novist	im thinking if that part of code worked in more traditional way it would help more for people who come from other languages like say python
17:22:53	novist	thats all ^_^
17:23:01	EXetoC	super can't be a proc that does some reflection?
17:23:01	dom96	dymk: nothing as advanced as that, you should write one :P
17:23:08	dymk	dom96, that's why I ask :P
17:23:16	dom96	dymk: we have this though http://nim-lang.org/filters.html
17:23:18	dymk	it'd be a fun way to learn the language
17:23:37	novist	EXetoC actually thats how super works in python (except it constructs entire object)
17:25:17	EXetoC	what for?
17:26:05	EXetoC	you mean a proxy object?
17:26:24	*	brson joined #nim
17:27:33	dom96	dymk: do it! Then create a Nimble package out of it!
17:28:20	novist	EXetoC im not sure of details now but behind scenes it does lots of magic there. but could be not needed at all in nim
17:28:47	novist	depends if nim supports multiple inheritance
17:28:52	EXetoC	dom96: does nimble not search descriptions?
17:30:09	*	Sphax quit (Quit: CYA!!)
17:30:36	dom96	EXetoC: just tags and name I think
17:32:49	EXetoC	strfmt is insufficiently tagged
17:34:17	dom96	fix it then
17:34:21	dom96	:)
17:35:25	novist	oh how able is nim to interact with stuff written in c++?
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17:44:26	flaviu	novist: it compiles to c++ too
17:45:26	novist	yeah but what i want to know how much extra work is needed to make it call into c++ stuff. like say Qt library. its huge and complex. manually wrapping it would be hell.
17:48:25	dom96	Apparently the nim website was automatically classified as porn by some bot
17:48:58	gmpreussner	seems legit
17:49:14	jsudlow	you havn't seen the nim girls?
17:49:19	gmpreussner	i use nim for intellectual masturbation all the time
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17:52:27	ldlework	https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8810855
17:53:22	gmpreussner	ldlework: i had the exact same experience this year
17:53:31	ldlework	gmpreussner: so say so
17:53:34	ldlework	:)
17:55:51	jsudlow	well said. I feel the same way. After reading some nim code, you find its very readable. You can start playing right away
17:56:01	*	shodan45 joined #nim
17:56:03	brson	the nim docs are looking nice. i upvoted
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17:58:00	dom96	:D
17:58:03	shodan45	typo in the 0.10.2 news: epxressions
17:58:03	ldlework	hi nice to still see you around
17:58:06	*	ldlework huggles brson
17:58:17	ldlework	thanks shodan45
17:58:20	brson	oh, heh. and congrats on the release!
17:58:28	*	tim_ joined #nim
17:58:33	*	brson upvotes harder
17:58:50	ldlework	::upvoting intensifies::
17:59:01	jsudlow	*upvotes
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17:59:23	EXetoC	dom96: it's that good, huh?
17:59:45	*	tim_ quit (Client Quit)
17:59:53	ldlework	awww yeah
17:59:57	*	ldlework nudges EXetoC in the ribs
18:03:02	*	filippo quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
18:03:19	dom96	shodan45: fixed, thanks.
18:08:15	dom96	ldlework: You should post that on reddit too!
18:12:05	EXetoC	dom96: I see, a classification and not a score
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18:32:21	ldlework	dom96: posted
18:33:03	dom96	ldlework: cool
18:39:20	ldlework	I think I'm going to stop telling people that Nim can be used without the GC
18:39:34	def-	ldlework: why?
18:39:53	ldlework	Because it is not a practical truth, only a technical one.
18:41:34	EXetoC	indeed it's not, at this point in time
18:43:24	ldlework	Sure but I think that the probability of a potential reality where the language is usable without GC diminishes over time, not gets more likely
18:44:12	EXetoC	I wonder when this area will be improved upon
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18:50:01	shodan45	hm, I hope so.... I'd like to try nim on microcontrollers (~8Mhz, ~8KB ram, etc.)
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18:51:54	ldlework	EXetoC: I think "improved upon" means forking the stdlib, or coming up with a micro-stdlib that doesn't depend on the GC
18:52:25	ldlework	I can't identify any personalities in the community that I've met yet who are interested in that kind of work
18:54:18	Matthias247	ldlework: but that's basically the same situation as with C/C++: If you want to go embedded you also will end up with another stdlib
18:54:48	ldlework	Matthias247: sure, I'm just pointing out that we do not have that stdlib and no one is remotely interested in producing it
18:55:17	ldlework	I'm not complaining I'm just justifying why I wont be parading around the gc-lessness anymore
18:56:08	dom96	You're likely to need a custom stdlib for embedded stuff anyway
18:56:18	Matthias247	I think it is fair to say the language can be used without GC, but it would probably be unfair to say it would be that helpful
18:56:20	dom96	I've built a "kernel" in Nim, it works.
18:56:33	dom96	I think it's better to advocate Nim's real-time GC.
18:56:54	def-	I really like this comment about Nim being pragmatic: https://pay.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2qp8xb/nim_formerly_nimrod_0102_released/cn8icgw
18:57:49	*	davidterry joined #nim
18:58:13	dom96	def-: agreed
18:59:49	ldlework	def-: I was just replying "Hear hear!"!
19:00:48	*	Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
19:01:36	ldlework	Does anyone mind making me a mod of the reddit?
19:01:45	ldlework	I wouldn't mind helping out with that.
19:02:00	EXetoC	are such people not more willing to implement such things? Am I underestimating the amount of allocation-free interfaces that might be needed?
19:02:18	*	Ven joined #nim
19:03:16	Matthias247	EXetoC: on safety related embedded systems you normally have 0 dynamic allocations
19:03:23	dom96	ldlework: I pasted a link to the discussion about wikipedia on HN to #wikipedia-en
19:03:39	dom96	er, that was meant for everybody sorry, unnecessary highlight.
19:03:53	EXetoC	dom96: does the kernel every allocate?
19:04:12	dom96	EXetoC: Sure.
19:04:16	EXetoC	ldlework: I'm interested, but I have a ton of things in the pipeline
19:04:26	dom96	EXetoC: Araq says that I should use GC in my kernel :P
19:04:39	EXetoC	but I need to figure out what to focus on most. I still have an unusable mongo interface though
19:04:58	dom96	ldlework: Sure, I can make you a mod.
19:04:58	ldlework	EXetoC: I believe you
19:05:39	ldlework	dom96: alright
19:05:57	dom96	done
19:08:07	EXetoC	dom96: yeah, might as well
19:08:12	EXetoC	that's a decent amount of comments on reddit for the release announcement
19:08:55	dom96	EXetoC: hrm?
19:09:32	EXetoC	"Arrggh. Not ANOTHER NIM, dammit." that other nim is popular?
19:09:38	EXetoC	that? those?
19:10:21	EXetoC	*the :p
19:11:02	Trustable	Hi people, don't forget to update http://nim-lang.org/news.xml
19:11:15	EXetoC	do we have any videos or paragraphs that contribute to this 'porn' classification?
19:11:52	EXetoC	Trustable: maybe it should be automated
19:19:03	*	yglukhov__ joined #nim
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19:19:35	ldlework	EXetoC: I just downvoted it
19:19:44	ldlework	We do have a 'troll' on the reddit thread though
19:19:56	ldlework	Not really trolling per se, but being purely critical
19:19:58	ldlework	which is fine
19:21:31	dom96	Can somebody help this guy? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8811207
19:22:26	def-	dom96: I just tried, but I'm not sure how that would work
19:22:45	dom96	I'm not entirely sure what he wants to do.
19:23:10	Matthias247	the answer would probably be "just use the ref types (GC)" ;)
19:23:23	EXetoC	dom96: smart pointers and COW?
19:23:55	def-	I think he wants to have an object, which you can copy. but after the copy both references point to the same data structure, until one decides to change it, then a copy is made
19:24:03	*	BitPuffin joined #nim
19:24:53	Matthias247	yes. In C++ you can do that by overloading =, [], [] const, ...
19:25:33	EXetoC	and destructors would have to work at all times
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19:29:19	EXetoC	Matthias247: right. user-definable `=` is currently missing
19:31:05	Araq	Varriount_: we're waiting for your installers
19:31:35	Araq	dymk: you can do varargs in Nim quite like you can do them in D.
19:32:50	Matthias247	I would probably go the other route and build an immutable array class. And rely on the GC for releasing the no-longer-used array versions
19:32:50	gmpreussner	how are private fields of an object supposed to be initialized? let's say i have an object Foo with a private field "bar: int". how does 'bar' get set in the constructor?
19:33:15	gmpreussner	i guess i need a special proc, like newFoo()
19:33:29	Araq	gmpreussner: that's what you should always provide
19:33:38	gmpreussner	ok
19:33:45	dom96	Would you guys agree with my comment? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8811210
19:34:03	EXetoC	"So it does not work without the GC, it only "works": much like D"
19:34:49	dom96	Araq: Could you help this guy? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8811207
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19:39:08	def-	dom96: wow, universities really like Julia
19:39:37	dom96	indeed
19:39:51	def-	that list is crazy for a language that young: http://julialang.org/teaching/
19:40:05	Araq	dom96: I replied
19:41:34	dom96	Araq: thanks
19:41:46	dom96	def-: I bet that the universities are sponsoring its development.
19:42:22	gmpreussner	i like that it doesn't have so many colons :)
19:42:22	EXetoC	but is D less pleasant to use even with libs that also work well without GC?
19:43:12	onionhammer	ooh nice
19:43:18	onionhammer	i definitely like the nim docs overhaul
19:43:25	onionhammer	(if only the rest of the site looked so clean! :))
19:44:14	onionhammer	none of the source links seem to work http://nim-lang.org/sockets.html
19:44:24	dom96	ouch https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8811378
19:44:44	def-	dom96: I'll post a few links
19:44:58	EXetoC	how ignorant
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19:45:39	gmpreussner	Araq: http://docs.julialang.org/en/release-0.3/manual/arrays/ yum :)
19:47:11	onionhammer	lol what a troll
19:47:19	EXetoC	more indentation!
19:47:26	Matthias247	afaik some Julia core developers are university employees
19:48:23	ldlework	I think we should try to get a wikipedia article again
19:49:19	EXetoC	so, which secondary sources do we use?
19:50:04	def-	EXetoC: there's a nice list, probably not noteworthy for Wikipedia: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8811132
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19:51:15	EXetoC	just wait for 1.0 then. it'll be released soon
19:51:41	dom96	ldlework: sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Nimrod_%28programming_language%29
19:51:48	dom96	You can use that as a base.
19:52:03	ldlework	dom96: I guess waiting until 1.0 is fine
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19:53:25	onionhammer	is there any documentation on the importcpp stuff yet?
19:54:02	*	loz1 joined #nim
19:54:26	dom96	onionhammer: http://nim-lang.org/nimc.html#importcpp-pragma
19:54:49	onionhammer	thanks
19:55:12	onionhammer	oh
19:55:16	onionhammer	is that the new thing?
19:55:33	onionhammer	that looks like what already existed
19:56:56	onionhammer	"The compiler now supports mixed Objective C / C++ / C code generation: The modules that use importCpp"
19:56:59	dom96	yeah, but now the compiler will generate cpp for modules that use it and .c for others
19:57:41	onionhammer	hmm...
19:57:45	Araq	Julia has a team of paid developers working on it, afaik
19:57:59	onionhammer	araq when you going to give idetools some love?
19:58:02	onionhammer	:0
19:58:28	EXetoC	soon after 1.0 IIRC
19:59:36	onionhammer	dom96 automatically when I "import somecppmodule"?
19:59:54	Araq	onionhammer: yes
19:59:57	dom96	Araq: Yep. That's what I'm writing on HN.
20:00:03	onionhammer	cool coool
20:00:34	*	yglukhov__ quit (Quit: Be back later ...)
20:00:35	onionhammer	what hint, at a minimum, does the module need to give to be compiled with cpp?
20:00:44	onionhammer	{.importcpp.} ?
20:00:53	Araq	yes
20:01:07	*	Demos_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:01:15	onionhammer	very good
20:01:28	*	Demos_ joined #nim
20:02:04	onionhammer	i'd like to double back down on nimlime, but im not sure how much more i can do for it until idetools CaaS is fixed
20:02:13	Araq	gmpreussner: worth copying the arrays from Julia? ;-)
20:02:26	ldlework	Why don't we just figure out a way to monetize the support of Nim?
20:02:36	ldlework	Is that conceptually unattainable?
20:02:51	shodan45	that, or {.enableselfawareness.} :)
20:02:59	*	nimnoob_ joined #nim
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20:04:01	dom96	ldlework: We should definitely discuss the best possible ways to do that.
20:04:10	*	BlaXpirit_UA joined #nim
20:04:14	dom96	I can't really think of any...
20:04:39	ldlework	dom96: I am trying to encourage Araq to let me start to formulate a more substantial manifestation of secondary-project organization around Nim
20:05:02	ldlework	That would probably be one of the larger and more important agendas.
20:05:17	*	bjz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
20:05:26	dom96	I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
20:05:32	dom96	Elaborate please.
20:05:50	ldlework	Formal organization of the maintainence of the project that extends beyond pull-requests
20:06:13	gmpreussner	Araq: i don't like their syntax as much, but the general support for n-dimensional arrays is kinda like what we had discussed yesterday. all the rest of their features are in their function library, which we can also implement, of course.
20:06:16	*	yglukhov__ quit (Client Quit)
20:06:32	*	BlaXpirit quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
20:06:36	ldlework	Organizing conferences, organizing and establishing copy for talks given at other conferences, maintainence of things unrelated to the code (like the website), financial venues, legal and so on
20:06:39	ldlework	dom96: ^
20:06:52	Araq	ldlework: encourage me to let you start? :D
20:06:58	Araq	start right away
20:07:01	*	BlaXpirit-UA quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
20:07:03	dom96	^^
20:07:17	dom96	I'm going to try and visit my local python gathering.
20:07:24	ldlework	Araq: Totally fair. I was going to end that comment with "He's not opposed or anything, its just still ill-defined"
20:07:45	dom96	Tell everyone about Nim.
20:07:55	ldlework	I already have that one in full motion :)
20:08:01	*	nimnoob_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
20:08:11	ldlework	I also wonder about using Nim to write Python extension
20:09:14	def-	ldlework: or just replace the need of having python + c/c++
20:09:36	ldlework	def-: you're ignoring all the people who use Python, have huge momentum and ecology behind Python and so on
20:09:56	ldlework	We need to stop thinking in terms of immigration and more in terms of migration.
20:10:30	dom96	We need to fix idetools
20:10:37	dom96	and get them working in every ide/text editor plugin
20:10:40	dom96	as well as Aporia
20:10:49	dom96	because that is a killer feature
20:10:51	ldlework	I agree with your emphasis on that feature too
20:11:13	ldlework	I too noticed the perking of ears when that was mentioned in the threads
20:11:38	Araq	gmpreussner: well the problem is Julia targets scientific programming where you have large matrixes and so it can fix a lot of design decisions
20:12:58	Araq	for instance if it's a value type or a reference type or if storing the lengths at runtime is advisable
20:14:18	*	gour_ is now known as gour
20:15:22	dom96	Also I have to make sure that jester is fast
20:15:51	def-	dom96: I'd like to help with that if you need any help
20:15:56	*	irrequietus joined #nim
20:16:15	def-	(it's on my todo list to investigate how to make it faster)
20:16:46	ldlework	def-: contribute to nim by making a Runtime templating lib
20:16:52	ldlework	contribute to jester*
20:17:06	dom96	def-: Awesome! Definitely will want your help. You can start by benchmarking it if you wish.
20:17:12	def-	I prefer to optimize stuff
20:17:24	def-	dom96: using wrk or anything else?
20:17:25	ldlework	def-: hehe alright :)
20:17:29	dom96	You're on Linux I presume?
20:17:32	dom96	Yeah, wrk.
20:17:33	def-	Yes
20:17:43	dom96	I'm on Windows so we can both benchmark and see what we find out :)
20:18:28	def-	dom96: master branch?
20:19:42	dom96	yes
20:19:44	EXetoC	ldlework: as in, a better runtime templating lib?
20:20:58	ldlework	EXetoC: yeah
20:21:11	EXetoC	what are the limitations again?
20:21:17	ldlework	limitations?
20:22:05	EXetoC	ldlework: of the one defined in the compiler
20:22:30	flaviu	cloning [liquid](https://github.com/Shopify/liquid/wiki/Liquid-for-Designers) would be an excellent choice for the templating lib
20:22:32	ldlework	That's a runtime templating language suitable for generating HTML in a ginormous web-project?
20:23:00	ldlework	flaviu: I prefer Jinja2 but they are similiar enough
20:23:09	ldlework	And liquid is probably easier to implement
20:23:19	flaviu	ldlework: The point of liquid is that it doesn't require eval()
20:23:37	flaviu	so its much less work, the compiler doesn't need to be ported to library
20:23:54	ldlework	flaviu: I don't believe that jinja2 actually does eval anymore
20:24:00	EXetoC	ldlework: you can compose templates
20:24:13	ldlework	EXetoC: well I'd hope so
20:24:15	EXetoC	but it's probably not as featureful as jinja2 for example
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20:25:05	BlaXpirit_UA	jinja2 is the best
20:25:10	BlaXpirit_UA	:|
20:25:13	flaviu	jinja2 is really good.
20:25:13	*	BlaXpirit_UA quit (Quit: Quit Konversation)
20:25:15	EXetoC	ldlework: there are 4 such libs added to nimble
20:25:31	*	BlaXpirit joined #nim
20:25:44	flaviu	Yet none of them are very good.
20:26:17	BlaXpirit	what is going to be done about nim nimrod tags on stackoverflow?
20:26:31	EXetoC	flaviu: just bad design in general?
20:26:33	flaviu	BlaXpirit: Someone should make a post in meta
20:26:45	BlaXpirit	i could...
20:26:49	EXetoC	one is string based. that's not good enough obviously :p
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20:28:00	BlaXpirit	lol there are only 18 questions!?
20:28:11	BlaXpirit	sadness
20:28:36	dom96	I don't tend to frequent SO
20:29:03	BlaXpirit	welp, a meta post may not even be needed -_-
20:29:40	BlaXpirit	and some crazy guy added both tags to every question -_-
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20:30:22	flaviu	EXetoC: nim-templates uses macros, I'm not comfortable relying on it and I don't like the syntax anyway; I don't understand Jade at all; emerald is a dsl, not templating language; moustachu uses macros.
20:30:59	Araq	hrm "wbhart" is the guy for whom I changed pointer deref from ^ to [] iirc. and the same guy now blames me to not listen to our users?
20:31:30	flaviu	Araq: you can't make everyone happy
20:31:47	BlaXpirit	well... actually... you can, by implementing configurable syntax xD
20:31:58	EXetoC	oh well. just reply and be done with it
20:32:05	flaviu	BlaXpirit: Configurable syntax would me me unhappy.
20:32:06	BlaXpirit	well... i didn't account for the fact that most people would be disgusted by that then
20:32:21	Araq	well I could be wrong, maybe I misremember
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20:32:25	def-	dom96: I don't understand what this should do?: echo("Jester is making jokes at http://localhost" & jes.settings.appName & ":" & $jes.settings.port)
20:32:38	def-	dom96: why should the appName be at that position?
20:33:10	dom96	Because if you set appName then all requests must begin with it.
20:33:23	dom96	oh.
20:33:26	dom96	I see what you mean.
20:33:30	dom96	That looks wrong indeed.
20:33:32	def-	then it should be after the port and a slash
20:33:40	dom96	indeed
20:33:43	dom96	I'll fix it.
20:34:14	Araq	dom96: can the compiler itself be a Nimble package?
20:34:56	dom96	I suppose.
20:35:13	def-	dom96: and if you open a website without the appName prefixed the program crashes
20:35:40	dom96	Araq: I wonder if we could have a separate repo for it which uses submodules
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20:37:48	Araq	flaviu: of course but still that's a special
20:37:59	Araq	guy
20:38:10	dom96	def-: Seems appName is completely broken.
20:38:18	dom96	def-: Nice find.
20:47:26	onionhammer	heh cool, this bluetooth keyboard works well with my phone ;)
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21:02:05	*	eskatrem joined #nim
21:02:24	eskatrem	Hey, can I convert an integer into string in nim?
21:02:55	def-	eskatrem: var myString = $myInt
21:03:15	eskatrem	def-: thanks
21:03:17	*	superfunc joined #nim
21:04:27	gokr	Interesting - 79 people here now.
21:06:11	eskatrem	HN effect? (that's what brought me here)
21:06:38	gokr	Could be :)
21:07:38	gokr	eskatrem: Apart from other sources, you may find some of my articles useful: http://goran.krampe.se/category/nim
21:09:10	*	yglukhov__ joined #nim
21:09:36	eskatrem	gokr: thanks, I am just doing some project Euler with Nim for now, if I like it I will try to write a program that generates fractals
21:10:06	*	loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
21:11:33	Araq	eskatrem: don't make it generate 3d fractals... otherwise my productivity will instantly drop to zero. ;-)
21:11:50	Araq	I can't stop watching these ...
21:11:56	flaviu	Looks like the social media peak is over, just 33 people on the site now.
21:12:11	eskatrem	Araq: naah, I dont know what those are, but I need nicve 2D fractals for something
21:12:53	eskatrem	I wanted to ask, is nim used for something practical?
21:13:00	gokr	hehe
21:13:21	gokr	We should make a list of nim programs out there.
21:13:30	gokr	eh, we probably already have one
21:13:36	dom96	eskatrem: Nim forum is written in Nim.
21:13:52	eskatrem	"430 problems on Project Euler have been solved in Nim"
21:14:11	eskatrem	dom96: that means it's possible to write simple web apps with it?
21:14:12	dom96	eskatrem: Many of Nim's tools are written in Nim too like Nimble (Nim's package manager)
21:14:30	dom96	eskatrem: I like to think you can write complicated ones too :)
21:14:38	perturbation	anyone used the tesseract OCR program? It has a nice C api and I'm thinking about wrapping it as a nimble package...
21:14:40	perturbation	http://code.google.com/p/tesseract-ocr/
21:15:03	eskatrem	dom96: yeah well, writing something complicated in a new language is a bad combination IMHO
21:15:04	gokr	eskatrem: The forum on the site is written fully in nim. Using async even.
21:15:54	dom96	eskatrem: perhaps.
21:20:06	dts|pokeball	eskatrem, thats the best way to prove that a language can be useful though
21:20:35	eskatrem	dts|pokeball: I agree, I just speaking as someone who is just playing with it after having seen it on HN
21:20:49	eskatrem	*was just speaking
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21:33:22	*	Varriount|Remote joined #nim
21:34:52	dts|pokeball	hey who had the ircd they wanted me to finish?
21:36:19	*	superfunc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
21:37:43	EXetoC	fowl?
21:38:10	EXetoC	I think. fowltek on github, if it's even there
21:38:38	dts|pokeball	i think its him too
21:39:48	dts|pokeball	the dark web: http://www.reddit.com/r/fairiesridingcorgis
21:40:00	*	rpag joined #nim
21:40:05	dts|pokeball	the darker web: http://www.reddit.com/r/corgisridingfairies
21:40:26	*	rpag quit (Remote host closed the connection)
21:40:37	*	Demos_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
21:40:40	dts|pokeball	ooops
21:40:45	dts|pokeball	wrong channel "}
21:40:46	dts|pokeball	:}
21:40:58	*	Demos_ joined #nim
21:42:25	ldlework	Julia's arrays do seem pretty nice
21:50:02	saml	https://github.com/nim-lang/Aporia how can I build this?
21:50:09	saml	babel is gone?
21:50:57	EXetoC	saml: babel -> nimble
21:53:29	dts|pokeball	i had trouble building aporia as well
21:53:52	saml	did you get it to compile?
21:54:06	Varriount|Remote	saml: Are you on windows?
21:54:14	saml	linux
21:54:15	saml	ubuntu
21:54:35	Varriount|Remote	Ok, then there's the chance that it might be possible.
21:55:06	*	vbtt joined #nim
21:55:07	saml	https://gist.github.com/saml/5d7b837e8181946fcb8c i get this
21:55:34	dts|pokeball	saml, yes
21:55:38	saml	compiled with `nim c aporia`
21:56:04	dts|pokeball	dont you compile with nimble build?
21:56:18	dom96	interesting
21:56:32	saml	FAILURE: Only one .nimble file should be present in /home/sam/.nimble/pkgs/gtk2-1.0
21:56:37	EXetoC	no syntax-defining macros eh? oh the primitiveness
21:56:39	saml	when i type `nimble build`
21:57:22	dom96	saml: Execute: ls /home/sam/.nimble/pkgs/gtk2-1.0
21:57:56	saml	maybe i didn't properly migrate to nimble from babel
21:58:38	dom96	saml: perhaps. It's possible that Nimble screwed up.
21:58:51	dom96	The automatic migration isn't perfect.
21:59:01	dom96	Might be easier to just remove ~/.nimble
21:59:03	EXetoC	it fails like that if there's also a babel file
21:59:25	saml	build is successful
21:59:34	saml	nimble build builds aporia
21:59:36	saml	but just can't start
22:00:18	dts|pokeball	that was my issue
22:00:24	*	eskatrem quit (Remote host closed the connection)
22:00:24	dts|pokeball	some weird gtk linking issues
22:00:26	saml	and you didn't fix it yet?
22:00:30	dts|pokeball	nope
22:00:36	dts|pokeball	i gave up and went back to nano
22:00:46	perturbation	the vim plugin is pretty nice
22:00:52	dom96	dts|pokeball: Why didn't you report it?
22:01:00	saml	can vim go to definition of a function?
22:01:02	gokr	I have Aporia running fine under Ubuntu, though I don't remember how I built it
22:01:10	dts|pokeball	dom96, i assumed it was a user error
22:01:29	dom96	It shouldn't crash no matter what.
22:01:32	dom96	All crashes are bugs.
22:01:35	dts|pokeball	it didnt crash
22:01:46	EXetoC	dts|pokeball: you can work well with multiple files using nano?
22:01:58	perturbation	saml: IIRC you can set it up with omnicomplete, but I personally don't use that feature
22:01:59	dom96	dts|pokeball: oh, so you mean you couldn't build it?
22:02:01	dts|pokeball	EXetoC, i only have the focus to work on one file at a time
22:02:09	dts|pokeball	dom96, it built, but it couldnt start
22:02:17	saml	shouldn't there be lexer for nim for vim?
22:02:18	dom96	Yeah, it crashed.
22:02:21	dom96	That's a crash.
22:02:31	perturbation	C-x C-o with syntax completion and inline compiler editors is the main 'killer feature' for the vim plugin for me
22:02:33	dts|pokeball	oh, i was not aware that constitued a crash
22:02:35	dom96	An uncaught exception *is* a crash.
22:02:37	EXetoC	saml: there's nimrod.vim
22:02:38	dts|pokeball	my bad
22:02:40	perturbation	*compile errors
22:02:45	dts|pokeball	dom96, ill replicate and report
22:02:52	EXetoC	saml: https://github.com/zah/nimrod.vim.git
22:02:57	dts|pokeball	wheres the aporia repo again?
22:03:06	saml	when i build aporia, there are so many warnings
22:03:12	dom96	dts|pokeball: If it's the same issue as saml's then I am already trying to reproduce it.
22:03:12	Varriount|Remote	Araq, dom96: I'm currently working on generating the installers.
22:03:17	dom96	Varriount|Remote: good
22:03:24	dts|pokeball	saml, what is your issue?
22:03:39	saml	https://gist.github.com/saml/5d7b837e8181946fcb8c this is my issue. crash
22:03:41	dom96	Varriount|Remote: We're out of the spotlight by now though. Please automate this process.
22:04:04	dts|pokeball	definitly looks like my issue
22:04:47	dom96	Works for me on Windows.
22:05:01	dom96	Linux only perhaps.
22:05:43	dom96	Dear god. That's a lot of warnings.
22:05:59	dts|pokeball	saml, you said your on ubuntu?
22:06:00	Varriount|Remote	dom96: Do you know if Nimble is being hosted on the website/server as an installer package?
22:06:01	EXetoC	dts|pokeball: I often feel the need to have at least one additional window whenever there's no semantic analysis
22:06:06	saml	dts|pokeball, yes
22:06:16	dom96	Araq: aporia.nim(2276, 38) Warning: not GC-safe: 'false' [GcUnsafe] what?
22:06:33	dom96	Varriount|Remote: It's not.
22:06:34	Araq	dom96: what?
22:06:49	Araq	that surely is a funny bug ...
22:06:56	dts|pokeball	EXetoC, i dont have the attention span for that. i do have the memory for when i need to reference another file though
22:06:57	dom96	Araq: It also prints the same warning multiple times.
22:06:58	saml	dts|pokeball, try sudo apt-get install libgtksourceview2.0-dev before nimble build aporia
22:06:59	EXetoC	false positive, yeah? :p
22:07:00	dom96	Araq: Most certainly.
22:07:11	saml	nope that doesn't solve. sorry
22:07:13	EXetoC	or maybe bools are more advanced than I first thought
22:07:25	dts|pokeball	saml, ok. ill try and build with you
22:07:31	Varriount|Remote	Araq: Is the installer going to have the option to include nimble or not?
22:07:33	dts|pokeball	wheres the aporia repo?
22:07:43	EXetoC	dts|pokeball: you people and your good memories!
22:07:44	saml	https://github.com/nim-lang/Aporia
22:07:49	dts|pokeball	ty
22:08:41	Araq	Varriount|Remote: it's not an option, just ship the .exe with it unconditionally
22:09:18	Varriount|Remote	Ok. dom96, do you have a 64 bit version of nimble on hand?
22:09:33	dom96	Varriount|Remote: just ship 32bit
22:10:16	dom96	saml: I'm going to launch a VM and test it on Ubuntu that way.
22:10:17	Varriount|Remote	dom96: Uh.. and what will happen when people who use a 64 bit compiler try to update nimble?
22:10:39	saml	DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="Ubuntu 14.04.1 LTS" i'm on
22:10:46	Varriount|Remote	Won't the dll's included with it not work, because the new binary will be 64 bit?
22:10:49	saml	dts|pokeball, what does cat /etc/lsb-release say?
22:10:50	dom96	Varriount|Remote: Then they will get a 64bit version?
22:10:59	dom96	Varriount|Remote: Yeah, probably.
22:11:08	dom96	Varriount|Remote: Build a 64bit version then. I don't have the env for that.
22:11:29	dts|pokeball	saml, sec
22:12:13	dts|pokeball	saml, http://paste.ubuntu.com/9642639/
22:15:03	dts|pokeball	ok, so just ran nimble build and it was successful
22:15:24	dts|pokeball	now to run, i just run ./aporia right?
22:17:52	dts|pokeball	odd
22:17:58	dts|pokeball	it just decided to work for me now
22:19:19	*	vbtt quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
22:20:59	saml	https://gist.github.com/saml/5d7b837e8181946fcb8c
22:21:56	dom96	https://github.com/nim-lang/Aporia/blob/master/aporia.nim#L2110
22:21:57	saml	https://github.com/nim-lang/Aporia/blob/master/aporia.nim#L2110 it's complaining about this?
22:22:00	dom96	Not sure why that would crash
22:22:05	dom96	indeed
22:22:13	saml	maybe my computer. dts|pokeball congrats
22:22:40	dts|pokeball	saml, is your nim up to daqte
22:22:42	dts|pokeball	?
22:22:50	saml	i'm using master
22:22:59	dts|pokeball	no
22:23:00	*	perturbation quit (Quit: Leaving)
22:23:01	dts|pokeball	you want devel
22:23:10	saml	oh
22:23:52	dom96	at this point it doesn't matter
22:23:52	dts|pokeball	as it states in the readme, you want devel, because aporia depends on bug fixes that arent neccesarily in master yet
22:23:55	dom96	devel and master are the same
22:24:06	dom96	master gets updated when we have a release
22:24:28	dts|pokeball	i was not aware there was a release
22:24:35	dts|pokeball	apparently im behind then
22:24:46	saml	let me restart my computer
22:25:07	*	saml quit (Quit: Leaving)
22:25:25	dts|pokeball	jerk. he didnt have to leave irc while restarting@
22:25:27	dts|pokeball	*!
22:25:43	*	Durz0 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
22:25:53	ekarlso-	what's wrong with Release(version: "foo", uri: "http://github.com/ekarlso/foo", `method`: "git") ?
22:26:10	dom96	ekarlso-: are you getting an error?
22:26:19	ekarlso-	packages.nim(17, 19) Error: named expression expected
22:26:25	ekarlso-	that's the line
22:26:39	dom96	probably the `method``
22:26:41	dts|pokeball	later guys. gf is over
22:26:47	*	saml joined #nim
22:26:50	dom96	I'm telling you: rename it.
22:27:16	ekarlso-	dom96: but what to call it :[
22:27:21	ekarlso-	trying to mimick packages.json
22:27:39	dom96	downMethod
22:27:50	dom96	You don't have to match the JSON fields.
22:28:00	ekarlso-	why not ? :p
22:28:36	dom96	because you get errors
22:29:06	ekarlso-	but doesn't nimble require "method"?
22:30:21	dom96	it does.
22:30:31	ekarlso-	then how ? :d
22:30:31	dom96	You should translate to JSON using the json module.
22:30:41	dom96	You can't use the marshal module for this.
22:30:53	ekarlso-	how does one do that ?
22:31:20	Araq	ekarlso-: report it anyway, `method`: x should compile
22:31:22	*	dts|pokeball quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
22:31:45	dom96	import json; echo(%{"method": %"git"})
22:32:30	dom96	saml: I can reproduce it.
22:32:32	flaviu	.eval discard {`method` : 1}
22:32:36	Mimbus	flaviu: eval.nim(3, 9) Error: undeclared identifier: 'method'
22:32:48	flaviu	.eval let `method` = 0;discard {`method` : 1}
22:32:49	saml	dom96, what was the problem?
22:32:52	Mimbus	flaviu: <no output>
22:32:59	dom96	saml: No idea yet.
22:33:05	saml	i didin't restart computer yet :P
22:33:17	EXetoC	.eval
22:33:19	saml	so i guess restart won't fix
22:33:21	Mimbus	EXetoC: <no output>
22:34:02	Araq	flaviu: that is not a tuple constructor though
22:34:46	flaviu	I see, I didn't notice the context.
22:35:13	ekarlso-	what is the discard thing ?
22:35:25	Araq	.eval discard (`method`: 1)
22:35:28	Mimbus	Araq: eval.nim(3, 17) Error: illformed AST: `method`: 1
22:35:41	Araq	there we go ... lol
22:36:22	saml	is there theindex.html that contains all libraries?
22:36:44	saml	not sure what these are: listStoreNew TypeString
22:37:03	flaviu	ekarlso-: You can't just ignore the result of an expression, that's an error.
22:37:14	flaviu	.eval "foo"
22:37:15	EXetoC	saml: a proc call perhaps, with an alternative syntax
22:37:17	Mimbus	flaviu: eval.nim(3, 0) Error: value of type 'string' has to be discarded
22:37:20	flaviu	see?
22:37:35	EXetoC	.eval proc p(x: int) = discard; p(1); p 1
22:37:38	Mimbus	EXetoC: eval.nim(5, 2) Error: invalid indentation
22:37:42	EXetoC	.eval proc p(x: int) = discard;p(1);p 1
22:37:44	ekarlso-	Araq: Release(version: "foo", uri: "http://github.com/ekarlso/foo", `method`: "git")
22:37:45	Mimbus	EXetoC: <no output>
22:37:50	ekarlso-	ehm: https://github.com/Araq/Nim/issues/1791
22:37:52	ekarlso-	reported
22:38:24	EXetoC	is that your best photo?
22:38:36	*	jefus_ joined #nim
22:38:47	fowl	lol
22:39:19	ekarlso-	what does a photo have to do with a bugreport ? :p
22:39:38	EXetoC	no idea
22:39:54	ldlework	haha, that is a funny photo tho
22:39:54	saml	SIGSEGV: Illegal storage access. (Try to compile with -d:useSysAssert -d:useGcAssert for details.); what do I need to compile with those options?
22:39:56	saml	nim itself?
22:40:30	ekarlso-	ldlework: that's how it goes when you go biking country side after farmers have been out with furtilizers :P
22:40:34	fowl	saml, did the compiler crash or did your program
22:40:42	saml	my program
22:40:47	saml	so my program
22:40:47	ldlework	ekarlso-: hehe
22:40:59	fowl	saml, recompile with -d:debug, you'll get a stack trace
22:41:03	saml	or libraries my program links to
22:41:42	Araq	remind me to check out what -d:debug is
22:41:48	dom96	ekarlso-: That's a brilliant picture!
22:41:54	*	jefus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
22:42:23	Araq	ekarlso-: thanks for the bug report
22:42:40	ldlework	Araq: you're not sure what -d:debug does?
22:42:48	fowl	Araq, ?
22:43:30	fowl	is it changed to Debug or something?
22:44:05	ldlework	Araq: dom96 I'm going to be speaking with some of the Python project leaders soon
22:44:14	ldlework	Is there sorts of things you like to know about
22:44:15	Araq	I never use it, fowl
22:44:22	ldlework	Or things I should seek general advice regarding?
22:44:26	ldlework	Please give this some thought
22:44:38	*	Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
22:44:42	dom96	ldlework: Ask them about the best way to get funding.
22:44:49	dom96	Perhaps.
22:44:51	Araq	I get stack traces when I leave out the -d:release
22:44:59	ekarlso-	Araq: suggestions on how to work around it ? :p
22:45:11	ldlework	dom96: I will definitely be asking about financial stability
22:45:41	Varriount|Remote	Araq: How... installed should babel be with regards to the Nim installer.
22:45:56	flaviu	Varriount|Remote: *Nimble
22:45:58	Araq	put it in bin/
22:46:15	Araq	not sure I understood your question
22:46:43	Varriount|Remote	Araq: But that's not where the babel distribution on github places it. And I don't know if that will work with 'babel install babel'
22:46:54	*	ldlework shakes Varriount|Remote
22:46:57	Varriount|Remote	Sorry, 'nimble'
22:47:00	ldlework	lol
22:47:16	*	dts|pokeball joined #nim
22:47:22	Varriount|Remote	ldlework: I have had less than 5 hours of sleep, and had to clean out a kennel full of poop today. Again.
22:47:52	Varriount|Remote	My brain is not running at its best.
22:48:03	fowl	varr just put babel in with it and have it install itself (and keep the copy that came with the compiler out of $PATH)
22:48:05	ldlework	Varriount|Remote: here's to hoping you get to relax soon
22:48:38	Araq	Varriount|Remote: please consider to give us the installers now, and later new ones that include nimble
22:48:46	Varriount|Remote	Ok. Will do.
22:48:53	Araq	so that we something for the release day
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22:50:05	saml	dom96, when i comment out https://github.com/nim-lang/Aporia/blob/master/aporia.nim#L2110-L2113 and recompile, it runs without crashing
22:50:24	dom96	saml: Yes, but then the error list won't work.
22:51:07	saml	what's error list?
22:51:24	saml	var listStore = listStoreNew(5, TypeString, TypeString, TypeString, ...) this works as well. 5 instead of 6
22:51:35	dom96	saml: press ctrl + shift + b
22:52:12	Araq	dom96: saml's point is a good one. forgot some sentinel?
22:52:19	saml	so it has 5 columns: File, Line, Colum, Type, Description
22:52:35	saml	should there be 6 columns?
22:53:16	dom96	Araq: Not according to the GTK docs: https://developer.gnome.org/gtk2/stable/GtkListStore.html#gtk-list-store-new
22:53:55	dom96	saml: There is also color
22:54:17	*	BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
22:54:29	Araq	dom96: then it's another varargs bug
22:54:51	dom96	Araq: yay
22:55:06	saml	weird that it works for dts|pokeball
22:55:22	saml	what was keyboard shortcut for Go to Definition in aporia?
22:55:39	Araq	dom96: cast the consts to cint and it'll work
22:55:49	Araq	or make these consts cint instead
22:58:44	Araq	hrm wait a sec
22:58:51	Araq	these are GType's
22:59:00	Araq	no idea what this resolves to
22:59:49	saml	/home/sam/code/Nim/bin/nim idetools --path:/tmp/ --track:/home/sam/code/Aporia/aporia.nim,2081,8 --def /home/sam/code/Aporia/aporia.nim
22:59:59	saml	this is what aporia executes when I Go to definition
23:00:05	saml	is --path:/tmp/ wrong?
23:01:36	dom96	Go to definition has been broken for a while unfortunately.
23:01:44	saml	oh i see
23:01:55	dom96	Araq: It's Dl_183673(((int) 6), 64, 64, 64, 64, 64, 64); in the C code.
23:02:53	*	z1y joined #nim
23:03:16	Araq	dom96: that doesn't look too bad. hrm
23:03:43	Araq	but maybe it should be (long long)64 ?
23:17:04	*	zahary1 joined #nim
23:21:03	Varriount|Remote	Araq: What's the 32bit mingw download url again?
23:26:19	*	BlaXpirit quit (Quit: Quit Konversation)
23:34:16	Araq	http://nim-lang.org/download/mingw32.zip
23:34:20	Araq	http://nim-lang.org/download/mingw64.zip
23:34:47	Araq	but it bothers me that you have to ask, this is all automated
23:35:04	Araq	isn't it?
23:39:21	EXetoC	good style update for the documentation
23:40:05	Araq	yeah I'll add some special note for the guy who made it
23:44:00	Varriount|Remote	Araq: Here's the 32 bit installer
23:44:04	Varriount|Remote	https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B077nrrf63xtUWZYMjZySExKZkE/view?usp=sharing
23:44:19	Varriount|Remote	Araq: Well, sorta
23:44:47	Varriount|Remote	The ini file still needs a 'version' variable and a 'mingw' variable, provided by the invoker of niminst
23:45:52	EXetoC	but you forgot the sticky elements and the 3d transforms
23:46:19	*	Varriount|Remote slaps EXetoC with a 2.5 dimensional fish
23:46:21	Araq	Varriount|Remote: koch knows how to do that
23:46:46	Araq	well for the 32 bit version, that is
23:47:23	ldlework	So I just had a short discussion with a financial advisor from the PSF
23:47:58	ldlework	We're going to have lunch in SF the second week of January
23:48:18	ldlework	But basically he told me the very first thing we need to do is find a friendly lawyer
23:48:32	ldlework	And begin work on establishing a 501c3
23:48:51	Araq	ldlework: what's a 501c3 ?
23:48:53	ldlework	And that in starting down that path
23:48:58	jsudlow	its a non for profit org
23:49:06	ldlework	I will have many more questions for him by the time we meet for lunch
23:49:23	Varriount|Remote	Araq: Wait, disregard that download link. I forgot the dlls
23:49:27	Araq	hi jsudlow welcome :-)
23:49:46	ldlework	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)_organization
23:49:49	Araq	Varriount|Remote: look at the koch.nim please it's likely you also forgot the debug version of the compiler etc.
23:50:02	Varriount|Remote	Araq: Nope, didn't forget that.
23:50:24	Araq	and automate it completely
23:50:50	jsudlow	Araq: thank you :) ldlework told me about nim and I have been messing with it. Its pretty cool. Not sure how everythign works but the speed is intense
23:51:44	ldlework	I unfortunately don't know any lawyers
23:52:15	ldlework	The only lawyer I have even a semblance of a relationship with is Marhsal from How I Met Your Mother and he's entirely fictional
23:53:12	jsudlow	are you trying to set up a company around nim? the 501c3's can be tricky bc they need to be audited every year so you need to have a competent accounting staff lined up too.
23:53:19	flaviu	ldlework: keep in mind that Araq is in germany.
23:53:36	ldlework	flaviu: I haven't forgetten. But I don't really know what to think about regarding that.
23:54:28	ldlework	Basically the guy from the PSF told me that we need a lawyer because there's no way mere mortals can penetrate the paperwork for a 501c3
23:54:38	ldlework	(he has personally tried)
23:54:54	ldlework	Also
23:55:08	ldlework	He said that he noticed that we have started to go publically recently (he saw our HN activity)
23:55:41	ldlework	He told me that our absolute first priorty before thinking about how to hire developers and so on is to establish trademark and copyright authority over anything we might even potentially want to control someday
23:55:49	ldlework	"Own all of it. Yesterday."
23:56:17	ldlework	But that that depends on the establishment of a 501c3
23:56:28	flaviu	Can't an individual own a trademark?
23:56:54	ldlework	flaviu: but then it is that individual that needs to fight all the courtcases and do the correspondence
23:56:56	Araq	ldlework: I know a couple of lawyers.
23:57:06	ldlework	correspondence that will be used as ownership evidence later
23:57:18	ldlework	and then the complication for when Nim actually does establish a corporation
23:57:22	ldlework	The corporation will want to own it
23:57:31	flaviu	ldlework: Can't the corporation buy it from the owner?
23:57:32	ldlework	And that doesn't establish copyright
23:57:56	ldlework	flaviu: Yes but all you're doing is complicating legal matters down the line in order to avoid touching the yaks
23:58:03	ldlework	Here I am. Willing to organize the Yak shaving.
23:58:13	flaviu	While lawyering up, CLAs are a good idea too.
23:58:23	ldlework	Let's not go to that place that we often go, in saying "isn't this least good solution good enough for now"
23:58:45	ldlework	flaviu: writing that down
23:59:06	flaviu	ldlework: The hard work is tracking down all previous contributors
23:59:31	ldlework	Yeah I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of hard work