<< 30-03-2017 >>
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00:25:02FromGitter<Varriount> vivus: Which ones are there?
00:25:54vivus@Varriount I got around it with: filecsv.write("\n")
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04:28:03tyler569whoops
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08:43:11FromGitter<TiberiumPY> hmm, on windows - could not load: libeay64.dll while trying to run "nimble install"
08:43:22FromGitter<TiberiumPY> I need to compile OpenSSL for 64 bits myself?
08:46:25FromGitter<TiberiumPY> wtf for real
08:47:23FromGitter<TiberiumPY> ahahaha
08:47:37FromGitter<TiberiumPY> I just renamed libeay32.dll and ssleay32.dll to 64 bits
08:47:39FromGitter<TiberiumPY> and it worked..
08:48:40cheatfateyeah, its known Araq's dirty hack :)
08:51:25Araqit's not a hack, it's a fix
08:51:36Araqlibeay32 are misnamed when then are for 64bits
08:51:51Araqbesides, you should already have these DLLs, Nim ships with them
08:52:00Araqlikewise you should already have nimble.exe
08:52:06Araqbecause Nim ships with it.
08:52:08FromGitter<TiberiumPY> I couldn't install Nim from binary installer
08:52:11FromGitter<TiberiumPY> I compiled it from source
08:52:31Araqbinary installer is broken, use the .zip
08:52:55FromGitter<TiberiumPY> hmm, for some reason my program crashes on start...
08:53:26FromGitter<TiberiumPY> no errors, just crash
08:53:38Araqyou can't just rename the DLL
08:53:45Araqget the DLL from the zip file please
08:53:47FromGitter<TiberiumPY> ok
08:53:53FromGitter<TiberiumPY> but why it worked for Nimble?
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08:57:02FromGitter<TiberiumPY> yay thank you Araq
09:00:50FromGitter<Varriount> Araq: If the binary installer is broken, why is it still available?
09:01:25FromGitter<TiberiumPY> So official instruction on installing latest Nim on Windows is: ⏎ Download nim 0.16.0 as a zip ⏎ Clone Nim repo ⏎ Compile latest nim with nim 0.16.0 using some compiler(mingw mingw-w64 etc) ⏎ Done? [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=58dcc966408f90be666e991f]
09:01:39FromGitter<TiberiumPY> and copy the dll's
09:02:12Araq^ that works.
09:02:27Araqthere is little magic involved even though people think so.
09:02:27FromGitter<TiberiumPY> ok I'll remember that
09:02:51Araqyou can move the .exes around, trim the stdlib, remove the docs
09:04:24Araquse a mingw in a sibling dir (my favourite) ... everything is flexible. and not officially supported because people get it wrong all the time.
09:09:41Araqvarriount: now that is a very good question.
09:11:38cheatfateAraq, if it working... is not always very good, just because you are shipping pretty old openssl dlls which are updating more frequently
09:13:02Araqcheatfate: once I wrote my own custom C++ build tool (just a Nim program of a couple of lines really) I can build these DLLs more frequently
09:13:44cheatfateso i think openssl dll names must stay original...
09:14:11Araqbut the original is broken and we have the same problem with eg pcre
09:14:18Araq32 vs 64bit builds
09:14:30cheatfatewhy original is broken?
09:14:48Araqbecause Nim supports 32 vs 64 bit builds.
09:15:06Araqand you can only have 1 openssl.dll in bin/
09:15:13Araqit's doomed.
09:15:42cheatfatemicrosoft always make 2 directories `x86` and `amd64` and this is proper way
09:16:26Araqhow so? they have to ship with a custom long .bat file to make this all work out
09:16:28cheatfateand on windows with nim 32bit you can't build 64 bit binaries
09:16:37Araqyou can.
09:16:54AraqI do it all the time, --cpu:amd64 and proper mingw in path
09:17:55cheatfateok, so ask yourself, will you update nim official binaries everytime openssl get updates?
09:19:09Araqno why would I. use an old enough openssl and it doesn't have the security bugs that then were fixed again :P
09:20:34cheatfateok one more question do you know, that you are modify openssl.dlls so they can't satisfy official MD5/SHA checksums on openssl site?
09:21:03FromGitter<TiberiumPY> btw, just curious - does Nim supports openssl 1.1.0?
09:21:54cheatfatenobody will check what you have modified in ssleay64.dll to load libeay64.dll, but checksums is wrong...
09:22:18Araqcheatfate: I don't know. :-)
09:23:08cheatfatethat's why its not a fix, its dirty hack
09:23:15Araqthese are all arguments for a native Nim implementation of ssl, IMO
09:24:18cheatfatenative nim implementation of ssl will takes even longer, then new website
09:24:20FromGitter<Varriount> Or a wrapper that uses SChannel on Windows, and OpenSSL on *nix
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09:24:40FromGitter<Varriount> Which would probably be less work that a new implementation.
09:24:45Araqvarriount: we have established we don't want SChannel
09:24:48cheatfateLets stop talking about SChannel, there was already discussion about it, and why it stupid
09:25:14FromGitter<Varriount> Well, there must be some native Windows SSL api
09:26:02cheatfateVarriount, omg, please take a look in irc logs about windows native ssl api and why its bad
09:26:20Araqcheatfate: ok, consider me convinced.
09:26:31FromGitter<Varriount> cheatfate: What date?
09:26:37Araqwill change this setup slightly for new release
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09:27:21cheatfateVarriount: Native windows SSL implementation on Windows XP/Vista don't support TLS 1.2 and supports only deprecated cipher suites
09:27:22Araqwill introduce dlls32 and dlls64 dirs and the installer adds one more entry to PATH
09:28:04FromGitter<Varriount> cheatfate: And we should support XP because...?
09:28:22Araqvarriount: because it rules and should never have been abandoned by MS
09:28:25Araq:D
09:28:36cheatfateVarriount: because there 8% of users using Windows XP, and only 2% uses Linux
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09:29:14cheatfate^^ and this data from 2017
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09:35:33cheatfatebefore somebody will finish pure nim ssl implementation, i think its better to have better ssl wrapper, which will support not only openssl, but libressl, wolfssl and all other widely used ssl implementations
09:35:59cheatfatethis wrapper also needs mechanism to automatically detect available shared objects
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09:56:28ngcHello, I have problems installing the 64 version of nim via the exe installer. Download of additional components by the installer fails with timeout. Anyone experiencing the same problem?
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09:58:54Araqngc: I'm fixing it.
09:59:21Araqor rather, I'm changing the website to reflect reality
09:59:25ngcThanks a lot @Araq
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10:09:41FromGitter<vegansk> Added support of ADTs to ``boost`` library :-) Compatible with ``patty``'s pattern matching ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=58dcd9654cb8d091733faaee]
10:10:53Araqngc: updated, please have a look
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10:16:37ngcdownloading via the installer failed again. But I see you updated the website (removed the installer). Shall I try the zip files?
10:19:54ngcaraq: perhaps you can link the aporia.zip package on the website?
10:24:31Araqthe installer cannot deal with https
10:29:26FromGitter<andreaferretti> @vegansk great! :-)
10:30:31Araqngc: I don't want to. aporia is moribund
10:31:01ngcmanual installation by extracting the zip files worked.
10:31:01FromGitter<vegansk> @andreaferretti, hi :smile: If I implement the possibility of adding common fields to ADT, will it break the compatibility with patty?
10:32:30FromGitter<andreaferretti> I don't think so, but I guess the best way is to try and check!
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10:33:54FromGitter<vegansk> Ok :-) will try it tomorrow
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11:34:47Tiberiumbtw, can nim compiler somehow statically include OpenSSL (and another used libs) in Windows compilation?
11:34:56Tiberiumor it does it already?
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11:47:45Tiberiumok, another question - how to configure appveyor for building my app? I need latest devel
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12:00:59Tiberiumwell, thanks nim has it's own appveyor.yml
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12:06:34flyxTiberium: did you see https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/wiki/BuildServices
12:06:43Tiberiumflyx, I need latest nim devel :)
12:06:50Tiberiumbecause nim 0.16.0 fails to build my project
12:08:38flyxwell that works with TravisCI, don't know about appveyor
12:08:50Tiberiumflyx, I already done travis :)
12:08:56flyxah kay
12:09:00Tiberiumcopied almost everything from Nim's appveyor
12:09:05Tiberiumtrying now
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12:16:19TiberiumAraq, do I need to provide openssl 64 bit libs from nim 0.16.0 zip file with my app, if it uses SSL on Windows?
12:16:33Tiberiumor maybe there's a way to "append" dll's into exe
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12:26:30FromGitter<dom96> "varriount: we have established we don't want SChannel"
12:26:33FromGitter<dom96> We established no such thing
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12:28:30FromGitter<dom96> Tiberium: You do. There might be a way to statically link it, but I doubt it's easy.
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13:04:51FromGitter<Varriount> Dom96: And I'm not sure that Windows Vista is actually insecure.
13:05:04FromGitter<Varriount> I mean, regarding SChannel
13:06:44cheatfateVarriount: i know you thinking i'm totally ignorant, so you dont trust my words. So check this link https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff468651(v=vs.85).aspx
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13:17:09FromGitter<Varriount> Cheatfate: I don't think your ignorant, I just think Microsoft's documentation is a mess
13:17:44cheatfatelol
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13:19:05FromGitter<Varriount> Anyway, I still think an abstraction layer over both APIs would be best.
13:19:22FromGitter<Varriount> That way you could force use of OpenSSL if you want.
13:20:31FromGitter<Varriount> The reason I prefer SChannel is because any openssl dll is likely to be outdated eventually on Windows
13:21:59cheatfateVarriount: in modern world of crypto, if you making wrapper/library and if you know how to make it, you must not allow such abstractions, just because end-users of your library will be very disappointed when application, which uses your library, for some reason uses weak cryptography (just because you allowed some abstractions)
13:23:05FromGitter<Varriount> What? Using an abstraction doesn't prevent use of strong cryptography.
13:24:15cheatfatewhat will do application with nim ssl wrapper (which uses schannel and openssl), if was executed without openssl dlls on windows xp/vista?
13:25:22cheatfateit will show exception: no strong ciphers available... or exception: could not load OpenSSL...
13:25:34cheatfateor it will start to use weak schannel
13:25:59cheatfatewhat abstraction you like in such case?
13:27:46cheatfatealso in modern world application which uses weak schannel will not be able to connect to any https servers, just because they will disconnect such client...
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13:44:25Tiberiumhmm, how to do something like this in Nim? (python) s = range(3, n + 1, 2) so it's range(start, stop, step)
13:45:25Araqthere is only countup(start, endInclusive, step) iterator
13:46:07TiberiumAraq, thanks
13:49:11zachcarterbleh https://gist.github.com/zacharycarter/67a4e3959bb39a70755e73a2eb58e8a1
13:49:15zachcarterspine parser
13:49:21zachcarterspine *JSON parser
13:49:52zachcarterno tests yet
13:51:46zachcarterstill wish I had been able to use flyx’s NimYaml but the JSON is just too variable for the deserializer to handle it
13:52:05zachcarterand I couldn’t figure out how to write a custom deserializer for just a small section of a JSON doc with NimYaml
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14:03:23chemist69zachcarter: you wrote that in one day? I am really impressed.
14:03:31zachcarterthanks
14:03:53zachcarternot the best code in the world but rapidity will do that to you :P
14:04:47*chemist69 realizes he's not coding at professional level AT ALL...
14:05:59zachcarterhaha well I wouldn’t consider myself a pro :P best leave that title to the nim maintainers and contributors :)
14:06:15zachcarterI am pretty quick with Nim though in terms of producing functioning code
14:06:25zachcarterbut I think I can still improve a lot
14:14:33FromGitter<dom96> zachcarter: you can use `{}`instead of getOrDefault IIRC. Should make your code much easier to reason about :)
14:15:03zachcarterthank you dom96
14:15:09Tiberiumbadges yay https://github.com/TiberiumN/Nickel
14:15:21Tiberiumeasy to copy CI configuration from Nim repo :)
14:15:33zachcarteralso: I think I just got the bindings to the spine C runtime working
14:15:45Tiberiumzachcarter, so you can work on framework itself?
14:15:54zachcarterpotentially
14:16:02zachcarterI can hold off on building this Nim runtime for Spine
14:16:06zachcarterand just use the bindings instead
14:16:19zachcartergotta verify though that things are working as I suspect they are, but I was finally able to get my function pointers invoked from C
14:18:05Tiberiumbtw, is it normal if I start my app - it takes ~6mb, and after it receive some commands from users (from web api), usage grows to ~16-17mb and stays like this?
14:20:15zachcarterwell GC is done locally per thread
14:20:23zachcarterso I imagine you would see normal GC behavior
14:20:30zachcartermemory usage going up and then going back down
14:20:34zachcarterwhen the GC cycles
14:21:08zachcartersomeone more familiar with the intracices of the GC could reply though
14:24:21Tiberiumzachcarter, it just going up to 15752 kilobytes and stays there even if I send some commands to it :)
14:24:36Tiberiumanyway that's small
14:24:41zachcarterwell I guess that’s not the worst thing in the world :P
14:24:52zachcarterbtw I’m curious as to what you’re building
14:24:54zachcarterI can’t read Russian :P
14:25:13zachcarteralthough I’d like to be able to - cool language
14:25:13Tiberiumzachcarter, it's a command chat-bot for Russian social network
14:25:20zachcarteroh cool!
14:26:15Tiberiumso like you type "hello" bot answers, or you type "rate" and it gives you current ruble's exchange rate to usd/gbp/eur
14:27:02TiberiumI've done it in Python already, but I started learning Nim, so I'm rewriting it from scratch :)
14:29:56zachcartervery cool
14:32:40Tiberiumzachcarter, but your frag is better :)
14:32:44Tiberiummy project is small
14:33:07zachcarterah well it’s totally different, plus I’ve been working on frag with a little help for a few months now
14:33:14zachcarterI wish it was smaller sometimes haha
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15:08:40zachcarterhrm I’m having trouble casting an unchecked array into anything usable
15:08:51zachcarterideally I’d like to cast it into an array
15:09:14zachcarterI have the size stored in another varaible but if I try to access that variable in my cast statement, I get - cannot evaluate at compile time
15:09:47zachcarterhttps://gist.github.com/zacharycarter/b6a8f5a0382cb449d738a8f499d3c41e
15:10:56FromGitter<andreaferretti> makes sense
15:11:05euantorThe array length would need to be known at compile time
15:11:20FromGitter<andreaferretti> an array is stored contigously
15:11:30FromGitter<andreaferretti> the compiler needs to know the size to reserve at compile time
15:11:34zachcarterah okay
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15:11:58zachcarterI guess I’m stuck manually building a seq / array then?
15:12:14FromGitter<andreaferretti> yes, you have to copy stuff into a sequence
15:12:19zachcarter:/
15:12:20zachcarteralright
15:12:27zachcarterthank you
15:12:27FromGitter<andreaferretti> or use an uncheked array
15:12:59FromGitter<andreaferretti> I see you already ahve one
15:13:30FromGitter<andreaferretti> then you can directly use it, provided you pay attention not to go over the bounds
15:13:58FromGitter<andreaferretti> but it may be simpler to copy it into a seq if this is not a critical section of code
15:14:12zachcarterokay I’ll just do that thank you
15:14:17zachcartermakes sense though
15:14:39zachcarterwhy what I’m doing is failing, didn’t even think about that
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16:02:33dom96Regarding the discussion on SChannel and Windows XP. You've got bigger security problems than SSL if you're using Windows XP...
16:03:13dom96And come on, you can still use OpenSSL for Windows XP if you care about it so much!
16:03:55dom96You can even write some code that forces the use of OpenSSL on Windows XP only.
16:04:59Tiberiumdom96, honestly, from my (beginner) POV - using SChannel will help me - I would distribute only one executable file, not two/three files (with dll/s)
16:05:28dom96Indeed. It would help a lot of people.
16:05:52dom96And just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it if you're so worried about security
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16:14:45FromGitter<Varriount> @dom96 My vision would be an abstraction library (or at least, async supporting both)
16:15:17FromGitter<Varriount> Then developers could pass in something like `-d:alwaysUseOpenSSL` when targeting Windows XP
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16:28:24Tiberiumor maybe -ssl:openssl
16:34:29Tiberiumjust wondering - can I (in theory) get any performance gains if I pass this to GCC: "-03 -fno-strict-aliasing -ffunction-sections -fdata-sections -flto -Ofast -fwhole-program -march=native" and "-Wl,--gc-sections -flto" for link-time?
16:37:32demi-you are passing two optimization flags
16:37:52Tiberiumdemi-, ah yes
16:38:16demi-and adding `lto` may not be desired when debugging
16:38:25Tiberiumdemi-, why?
16:38:32demi-as that can break lookup and symbol resolution in the debugger
16:38:44Tiberiumah, I don't debug release binaries anyway
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16:48:41dom96Varriount: Sure. The implementation is up for debate, but it's largely a separate issue.
16:48:47dom96Araq and cheatfate don't want it at all.
16:49:06dom96Which is just annoying, seeing as somebody was volunteering to write it!
16:49:22dom96Tiberium: Yeah, I like --ssl:openssl better :)
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17:06:09FromGitter<Varriount> dom96: Who was volunteering?
17:06:36dom96couven92 IIRC
17:06:42FromGitter<Varriount> :<
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18:10:31zachcarter YEAHHHH BOI http://imgur.com/a/eqrly
18:10:49zachcarterindexed drawing with spine :D
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18:12:50cheatfateVarriount if you don't trust me and microsoft, maybe you can check this table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_TLS_implementations#Protocol_support
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18:32:35Tiberiumhow can I convert string in Nim to something like this "\u043F\u0440\u0438\u0432\u0435\u0442" ?
18:32:40Tiberiumto send it to web api
18:33:59PMunchTiberium, https://nim-lang.org/docs/unicode.html
18:34:20PMunchfor i in 0..runeLen(str):
18:34:52PMunch"\u" & $runeAt(str,i)
18:34:55PMunchSomething like that
18:35:35TiberiumPMunch, thanks :) It's even simpler with "runes" iterator
18:36:33PMunchOh yeah, I just scrolled through the doc until I had the info I needed :P
18:36:42PMunchYou might need to change that to hex though
18:40:38dom96zachcarter: niceee
18:40:48zachcarterdom96: thank you!
18:41:17dom96Tiberium: I think you can also use escapeJson (from the json module)
18:41:22Tiberiumzachcarter, i liked your tweet xD
18:41:31zachcarterI saw that :D I liked yours too! haha
18:41:45zachcarterI can only hope someone will make a AAA game with frag eventually
18:41:47zachcarterthat’d be too cool :P
18:44:10dom96Tiberium: what's your twitter?
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18:44:17Tiberiumdom96, @TiberiumDEV :)
18:45:28dom96zachcarter: what's yours?
18:45:45Tiberium@Hahaitsfunny
18:47:09dom96ahh cool
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18:48:21zachcartersorry was afk
18:49:30zachcarteryay thanks for the RTs!
18:51:31Tiberiumwow, retweet from Nim itself :P
18:51:41zachcarter:)
18:52:05zachcarterI’m going to start working on docu tonight - any suggestions on workflows for that? Is just the standard Nim doc tool good enough?
18:52:32dom96:)
18:52:44dom96819 followers. @nim_lang is doing pretty well
18:53:03dom96I need to more actively tweet using it I think
18:53:32zachcartercool project idea for a Nim newbie: official / unofficial Nim twitter bot
18:53:37zachcarterthat retweets tweets about Nim
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18:54:33PMunchHmm, the --app:gui flag crashes on Linux. Should this maybe be implemented as a nop on Linux instead?
18:57:50subsetparkdom96, I see how it is, zachcarter gets a retweet from nim itself and I have to settle for some swiss dude
18:58:00zachcarterahahaha
18:58:24dom96lol, there you go
18:58:43dom96Also, just because I live in Switzerland doesn't mean I'm Swiss :P
18:59:03subsetparkeven worse, some dude pretending to be swiss!
18:59:13ldleworkdom96: one thing to do is retweet nim-based project updates
18:59:45dom96ldlework: Yes, unfortunately most of the time people don't mention @nim_lang *hint hint*
19:00:04subsetparkhmmmm, point taken...
19:00:54ldleworkdom96: I mean just have a bot do it
19:01:11Tiberiumfor example - https://twitter.com/melpa_emacs/status/845930343676862466
19:01:11zachcarterI normally do mention nimlang, forgot to this time should def have
19:01:16Tiberiumno @nim_lang mention :(
19:01:18ldleworkdont you have unlimited freetime
19:02:08dom96I'm too lazy to set up bots for this stuff
19:02:13Tiberiumor again
19:02:15Tiberiumno @nim_lang
19:02:17Tiberiumhttps://twitter.com/queersorceress/status/843228271114440704
19:02:24dom96Plus, retweeting every mention sounds like a bad idea
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19:02:35ldleworkhehe
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19:05:44zachcarterthere I made up for it :P
19:06:51Tiberiumbtw, do you know - termcolor.nim from January 2011 still works it latest Nim... :)
19:07:07TiberiumI use it for logging
19:08:55zachcarteranyone have any advice on the docu stuff?
19:10:27dom96Not really, just do what we do in the stdlib. You may wish to write separate documents containing lengthy explanation/examples and only add documentation to procedures/types in your source code.
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19:13:20zachcarteralright thanks
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19:26:57dom96Aww, my server crashed again
19:28:49zachcarter:O
19:31:01zachcarteris that why the forums are all poopy atm?
19:31:23zachcarterhttps://forum.nim-lang.org/t/2886/2
19:31:37zachcartereven though the forums say a page 2 exists
19:31:56Tiberiumwait
19:32:04Tiberiumnim website is running on jester?
19:32:05Tiberiumwow
19:32:23Tiberiumzachcarter, maybe someone deleted reply on second page?
19:32:26Tiberiumjust don't know
19:32:33zachcartermaybe
19:35:09ldleworkI really should have popularized my ECS before other people started writing game frameworks that don't use it :(
19:35:11*ldlework sighs.
19:36:00zachcarterI don’t like ECS :/
19:36:40zachcarterthe only decent ECS I’ve come across is : https://github.com/slide-rs/specs
19:37:03zachcarterECS tends to overly complicate game code with little benefit
19:37:22ldleworkYes this is why everyone should /my/ ECS
19:37:40ldleworkWhich uses Nim metaprogramming to the N-th degree to make for the absolute finest end-user ECS api in existene.
19:37:56zachcarterI’d rather an ECS be built on top of a framework
19:37:58zachcarterthan a framework incorporating one
19:38:04zachcarterthat way the ECS is totally optional
19:38:16ldleworkWhich draws into question your actual experience with ECS.
19:38:31zachcarterokay
19:38:56zachcarterI tend to build roguelike games, ECS get in my way generally, I’ll just leave it at that
19:39:16ldleworkI built my ECS to build a Cataclysm clone so..
19:39:19zachcarteryou can hold whatever opinion on ECS’s you want to
19:39:27ldleworkThanks for the permission? lol
19:39:49zachcarterbut that’s not going to influence whether I incorproate an ECS into anything I build
19:40:08ldleworkYeah, doing what you want goes both ways. So we've stated the obvious.
19:40:20zachcarterI generally don’t like talking to you
19:40:27zachcarterjust getting that out there
19:40:45zachcarteryou’re extremely argumentative and when I state an opinion you take it as a personal attack and then start the insult train
19:40:47ldleworkOh should I around telling people how unpleasant they are to talk to/
19:40:52ldleworkIs that how one becomes likable?
19:41:19ldleworkShould I conflate open discourse for advice and then battle against that imaginary advice?
19:41:39ldleworkJesus.
19:41:42zachcarterJesus is right
19:41:58ldleworkI said something draws into question your experience with a thing.
19:42:04zachcarterI think maybe if you want your ECS in framework so badly you should build one yourseflf
19:42:08ldleworkIf that's a personal attack to you, then you must have a bad time a lot of the time.
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19:42:17ldleworkIt says nothing about your character or personhood.
19:42:18zachcarterlately only when talking with you
19:42:20ldleworkOn the otherhand
19:42:23ldleworkThat's exactly what you're doing to me
19:42:29ldleworkBe shocked that I'm not convinced.
19:42:46ldleworkSince we never talk to each other basically ever. I don't even know who you are.
19:43:12zachcarterWe have chatted in this channel previously
19:43:17ldleworklately?
19:43:23zachcarterwith pretty much the same outcome
19:43:25ldleworkis lately a time so long that one forgets who the other is?
19:43:26zachcarterin the past two weeks
19:43:29zachcarterthat’s on you
19:43:30ldleworkOh you're just hyperbolizing
19:43:41ldleworkSo that you can justify your personal attacks
19:43:51zachcarterno I can remember the specifi conversation
19:43:53ldleworkHypocrisy and hyperbolization, good partners.
19:43:55zachcarterit was about Nim and C
19:44:02zachcarterand how one is influenced by the other
19:44:07ldleworkzachcarter: have I attacked your personhood or character?
19:44:14ldleworkHave you?
19:44:18ldleworkIts simple arithmatic.
19:44:43zachcarteragain, I generally don’t enjoy speaking to you so I’m going to refrain from doing so in the future
19:44:44ldleworkLets engage in more hyperbolie and hypocrisy so you can leave this interaction feeling good about yourself.
19:45:07ldleworkRemember you get to do what you want.
19:45:14ldleworkSo telling us is just more virtue signaling and personal insulting.
19:45:24ldleworkYou're so full of character, I have a lot to learn.
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19:46:56zachcarterI recommend you just stop being a dick
19:47:01zachcarterit would go a long way
19:47:10zachcarterand I’ll leave it at that
19:47:28ldleworkDrawing into your experience isn't being a dick
19:47:34ldleworkdrawing into someone's personhood and calling them a dick is
19:47:42ldleworkIts pretty simple.
19:47:55zachcarteryes you can keep repeating the same three sentences over and over
19:47:57ldleworkI'll continue to make statements like "that tells me you don't know much about that" and not "You're a dick"
19:48:01zachcarteryou’re still acting like a dick
19:48:16ldleworkI think we ontologically disagree what that means.
19:48:19zachcarterif you want to talk about ECS’s and what makes them good or bad that’s fine
19:48:24ldleworkSo you can go ahead and do that thing
19:48:27ldleworkWhere you made a big deal
19:48:29ldleworkabout not talking to me
19:48:38ldleworkthat would actually cause yout to cease personally insulting me
19:48:42ldleworkbecause you're insecure
19:48:45zachcarterlmao
19:48:46ldleworkabout your experience with ecs
19:49:01ldleworkis that a personal attack?
19:49:06ldleworkto refer to the way you've blown up
19:49:14ldleworkregarding my commentary about your experience with ECS?
19:49:23ldleworkmy one line
19:49:27zachcarterFirst of all, please stop using enter as punctuation it makes speaking with you impossible
19:49:31ldleworkcompared to your rant about how I'm a bad person?
19:49:52ldleworkI think I'll stick with my moral philosophy, I think yours is poor and self-refuting.
19:50:27ldlework19:48 zachcarter │ if you want to talk about ECS’s and what makes them good or bad that’s fine
19:50:31zachcarterrght
19:50:36zachcarterright
19:50:37ldleworkyou should take your own advice
19:50:44zachcarterI was talking about that
19:51:04ldleworkreally it seems addressed to me
19:51:07ldleworkstrange.
19:51:28zachcarterzachcarter: I don’t like ECS
19:51:29zachcarter[3:36pm] zachcarter: the only decent ECS I’ve come across is : https://github.com/slide-rs/specs
19:51:30zachcarter[3:37pm] zachcarter: ECS tends to overly complicate game code with little benefit
19:51:32zachcarter[3:37pm] ldlework: Yes this is why everyone should /my/ ECS
19:51:33zachcarter[3:37pm] ldlework: Which uses Nim metaprogramming to the N-th degree to make for the absolute finest end-user ECS api in existene.
19:51:35zachcarter[3:37pm] zachcarter: I’d rather an ECS be built on top of a framework
19:51:36zachcarter[3:37pm] zachcarter: than a framework incorporating one
19:51:37zachcarter[3:38pm] zachcarter: that way the ECS is totally optional
19:51:38zachcarter[3:38pm]
19:51:42zachcarterI guess I wasn’t talking about ECS’s I was just insulting you
19:51:49ldleworkOh yes because we're all idiots
19:51:51ldleworkwith short memories
19:51:56ldleworkand forget how you changed that topic
19:51:59ldleworkto how horrible of a person I am
19:52:04*Varriount|Phone quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
19:52:07ldleworkthat justifies your behavior
19:52:26def-i think you can have your personal conversations in #nim-offtopic or PM. This doesn't look very nim related to me
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19:53:27ldleworkIt does look like Frag is quite nice
19:53:34zachcarterwhatever man
19:53:36zachcarterwe’re good
19:53:38zachcarter:D
19:53:51ldleworkLooks like it is no toy and well thought out
19:54:09PMunchWhat's Frag?
19:54:27dom96zachcarter: fixed. A user that posted in the thread was moderated.
19:54:32ldleworkhttps://github.com/fragworks/frag
19:54:38def-PMunch: https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/2886
19:54:40zachcarterdom96: ah interesting
19:54:49ldleworkdom96: did you fix the data or the code :D
19:55:00dom96The data.
19:55:27PMunchHmm, interesting
19:56:08ldleworkthe most interesting part is https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx
19:56:32dom96God damn, why does iOS 10 ignore user-scalable :\
19:57:38PMunchI'm up to 18k views now on the GUI post I did :)
19:58:21PMunchNim posts are definitely the most popular on my DevLog
19:58:32ldleworkPMunch: oh can I get a link?
19:58:54PMunchSure: http://serv.peterme.net/devlog/cross-platform-guis-and-nim-macros.html
19:59:42ldleworkPMunch: 'Exit LibUI'
19:59:45ldleworkI snorted
20:00:03PMunchHaha, it's written to mimic Novaks post
20:00:16PMunchWhich it is written as a response to
20:01:58XeAraq: if i wanted to just send the nim dev team money without any conditions or bountysource whatever attached to it, how should I?
20:02:23ldleworkPMunch: neat so you wrote a DSL for wx?
20:02:28PMunchYup
20:02:35ldleworkhaha that's useful!
20:03:18PMunchYeah, it's pretty neat
20:03:27PMunchhttps://github.com/PMunch/wxnim/tree/master/examples/genuimacro
20:03:30PMunchThere are some examples
20:04:28ldleworkthanks for writing that
20:04:59PMunchNo problem :) GUIs are something which have always bothered me, now it's dead simple
20:05:14ldleworkdo we have the equivalent of an "urwid" library for Nim?
20:05:23ldleworkwhich is basically windowing ontop of curses
20:05:28Tiberiumlast step would be to create something like "microsoft blend" to generate code like PMunch's examples
20:05:42PMunchMicrosoft blend?
20:05:52Tiberiumyeah
20:05:58Tiberiumit's like delphi gui designer
20:06:00Tiberiumbut for C#
20:06:05Tiberiumintegrated into Visual Studio
20:06:22PMunchAh, like Glade for Gtk
20:06:25Tiberiumyeah
20:06:38Tiberiumhttps://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/visualstudio/2014/11/13/blend-for-visual-studio-2015-preview/
20:07:18ldleworkI remember when I made a packet sniffer in VB when I was like 12 and I spent weeks implementing like every single UI event handler and made it do something
20:07:26ldleworkit was like using a hacker tool from the movies
20:07:37ldleworkeven though it was just a simple windows form ^_^
20:07:59zachcartermaybe someone could wrap : https://github.com/nsf/termbox ?
20:08:11zachcarteror nsf could provide us with a nim port :P
20:08:22def-zachcarter: https://github.com/fowlmouth/nim-termbox
20:08:28Tiberiumwow
20:08:28ldleworkneat
20:08:29Tiberiumthat was fast
20:08:31TiberiumxD
20:08:33ldleworkhaha
20:08:51zachcarteroh
20:08:52zachcarterthere you go
20:08:54ldleworkI wonder how termbox compares to urwid
20:08:57zachcarterno clue
20:08:57def-and i did that once, but I guess it needs some work again: https://github.com/def-/nim-termbox/commit/9c6c1f8814cce301e30bff014c28e310cf90de8b
20:09:08Tiberiumurwid is python, no?
20:09:12Tiberiumhttp://urwid.org/
20:09:17TiberiumCUI library for Python
20:09:24ldleworkyep
20:09:29ldleworkI've used it for a half dozen tools
20:10:46ldleworkintegrates nicely with twisted
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20:14:49Tiberiumhow can I implement template like a block, so inside this block I can just write strings separated by newline?
20:15:21Tiberiumhttps://gist.github.com/TiberiumN/86c9cec447d700ccedb2cc653ae5b633
20:15:27Tiberiumor I don't understand template system?
20:15:54*xet7 quit (Quit: Leaving)
20:16:06ldleworkProbably easier with a macro
20:16:19Tiberiumldlework, how?
20:16:21ldleworksince you'd just iterate over the varargs or whatever nim calls it
20:16:24Tiberiumyeah
20:16:25ldleworkand make a new string node
20:16:27ldleworkand return it
20:16:34ldleworklike three or four lines probably in my head
20:17:37ldleworkIs there a nim playground yet?
20:18:04zachcarterglot.io
20:18:05ldleworkTiberium: what you working towards
20:18:07zachcarterhttps://glot.io/new/nim
20:18:09ldleworkthanks
20:18:19ldleworkooh that has a lot of languages
20:18:29zachcarteryeah it’s nice
20:18:39Tiberiumldlework, I have something like this: https://gist.github.com/TiberiumN/fc317a8b0caad440fe35e1637351ad32 and I will eventually add new lines to it
20:18:49Tiberiumso I want to remove call on every line for better code :)
20:19:57ldleworkTiberium: you should make the macro take a style object as the first param
20:20:06ldleworkthen you should make the style objects stateful and return new style objects
20:20:11ldleworkso you can chain properties together
20:20:13ldleworklike
20:20:27ldleworka = font('somefont')
20:20:31ldleworkb = a.red()
20:20:33ldleworketc
20:21:41Tiberiumldlework, i mean I just want to translate block like "log:\n "some string"\n "some string" " to log("some another string")\n log("some another string")
20:22:10ldleworkSure, then make your style object callable too, if Nim can do that :D
20:22:25ldleworkbut yeah I see what you're getting at
20:22:56ldleworkI feel like my Nim is fading, I can't remember what it does anymore
20:23:08ldleworkI learned too much C# and Golang since I last used it heavily.
20:23:14ldleworkAnd I bet Nim changed some
20:23:25ldleworkanyway I failed to write the macro you're on your own!
20:23:27ldlework:D
20:24:24Tiberiumok :)
20:26:30TiberiumOK, I'll do it tomorrow
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20:40:45libmanstisa: did you see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/2891? :)
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21:01:29FromGitter<TiberiumPY> I would be interested in this too
21:02:22FromGitter<TiberiumPY> Because for now I use GNUROOT (I don't have root on my phone), and this app is slow
21:05:55FromGitter<TiberiumPY> I want to use all power of my phone :)
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21:21:21FromGitter<stisa> libman : nope, I'll have a try at it tomorrow-ish. I kind of remember some changes I had to make to get it to work, I might try to get a termux package going if I get it to work
21:24:21libmanFixing barriers to cross-compiling and deploying software written in Nim to Android (ex. the getTempDir issue) should be a priority. Getting Nim itself running on them low-power platforms: less of a priority.
21:25:32libmanThere will soon be computers the size of a bloodcell. But that doesn't mean one should compile on them.
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21:42:21cheatfatelibman, you are too optimistic...
21:42:33cheatfatei mean computers the size of bloodcell
21:43:00cheatfatebloodcell don't have enough ram and storage for modern programmers/developers
21:43:03libmanI'm a lunatic actually. ;)
21:45:14cheatfateso we need to wait for bloodcell servers cloud...
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21:49:55PMunchcheatfate, there was actually some recent research into coding binary data onto DNA
21:50:27PMunchSo if you made a "computer" protein that ran on this DNA it could potentially be in the bloodcell size realm
21:51:01cheatfateDNA is a future storage space, nothing more
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21:52:20libmanMy point was that there are growing trends of compiler intelligence as well as CPU power inequality among computers, and both are a good thing. But that means not all computers we want to target should be used for compiling.
21:52:24FromGitter<Varriount> Xe: I would just use BountySource
21:52:43FromGitter<Varriount> Xe: I have a monthly donation set up for Nim. :D
21:53:30FromGitter<Varriount> libman: I have a computer in me.
21:54:20FromGitter<Varriount> It's composed of neurons, and uses electrical signals and protein signalling to regulate a bioregulatory feedback system
21:58:27*libman has a thing for tiny robots that can swim / crawl around inside the human body and clean up problems.
21:59:57libmanComputational power inequality between smallest computers and mainframes used to be within 1-2 orders of magnitude, but it grew ever since on both ends.
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