<< 30-03-2019 >>
00:02:19I_Right_Ihey wait, none of this is going to impact "ItemList = cast[ptr array[MaxItems,ItemObj]](allocShared0(sizeof(ItemObj)*MaxItems))" is it?
00:03:10AraqI_Right_I, it kinda does, you can just use a 'seq' instead then
00:03:38Araqbut your way continues to work
00:04:27I_Right_Iwell using a seq would have been nice
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00:18:58FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> Did you guys know https://repl.it/ has a nim IDE?
00:19:45FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> That's kind of awesome tbh
00:20:25sealmovemust be pretty recent
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00:21:03FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> Yeah it's relatively new and it works pretty well!
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00:23:36FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> Just a question, but do any of you guys know what the nim equivalent of `[1,2,3,4,5][::2]` would be from python?
00:24:13FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> I'm probably going to make a loop in the end, but I just wanted to know if there was another way
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00:29:44I_Right_IAraq: Just wanted to tell you I come from "C" haven't done much programming in the last ten years. I have been looking into learning a new language, and I have tried a few(Rust,Go...etc). For my purposes nim wins out hands down. And I strongly believe as nim matures others will see that as well.
00:31:02sealmoveAvatarfighter: [^2]
00:31:24sealmove[0..^2] to be precise
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00:32:45sealmovesorry, forgot my python :P
00:33:09FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> What does the "^" part of that do?
00:33:13sealmovebut you can do anything with `..` operator, and if you need elements counting from last one, use carot (`^`)
00:33:20FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> Ah
00:34:14FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> That solves one of my issues lol
00:34:15sealmoveah you want step
00:34:29sealmovemaybe need list comprehension for this
00:34:55FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> See, I definitely would use list comprehension, but I dont fully understand how it works in nim lol
00:35:00sealmovehttps://github.com/alehander42/comprehension
00:35:13sealmoveit's an external lib, so...
00:35:20sealmovecore Nim doesn't have it
00:35:49sealmovehttps://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/tests/macros/tcollect.nim
00:35:50FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> i believe the sugar lib has a version of it
00:35:56I_Right_II can see I am going to have to play with the iteration nim offers a bit more then I have
00:36:08FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> https://nim-lang.org/docs/sugar.html#lc
00:36:39sealmoveoh nice, didn't know that
00:36:58FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> It looks really cool, but the more I fiddle with it, the less it works for me lol
00:37:25sealmoveyeah, stick to the simple when you can
00:37:34FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> lmao
00:37:48FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> time to snag alehander42's lib i guess 😄
00:39:17sealmovewait, maybe you need something difference actually
00:40:03sealmovehttps://nim-lang.org/docs/sequtils.html#keepItIf.t%2Cseq%2Cuntyped
00:40:48sealmovetransforming seqs is done with sequtils
00:41:34sealmoveand iterutils has exactly the "slicing" you are looking for https://github.com/def-/nim-iterutils/blob/master/src/iterutils.nim
00:41:42sealmove(sorry for the many links)
00:41:56sealmovehttps://github.com/def-/nim-iterutils/blob/master/src/iterutils.nim#L121
00:41:59FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> it's alrighty, I enjoy looking at how it's all implemented, I'm learning a lot lol
00:45:10sealmoveseems very trivial to implement using iterator keyword
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00:51:08FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> Yeah, it looks fairly simple, I just wanted to see if it was a native thing in nim 😄
01:02:55sealmoveyeah Nim doesn't have "native" stuff like this. only what's easy for the computer is native.
01:03:19sealmoveand i believe this is the way to make sound abstractions
01:05:18FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> sounds good \:D thank you for the help again sealmove, you're a real lifesaver
01:06:14sealmovehappy to help (but note I am a Nim beginner as well)
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01:11:38I_Right_IDoes anyone know why the change from the name nimrod to nim?
01:13:18sealmovecool language need short name?
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04:02:16FromGitter<AmberSaber> why not n?
04:02:35FromGitter<AmberSaber> more stort
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04:11:44disruptekhere here
04:11:55disruptekhear here
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07:05:46FromGitter<alehander42> Araq, so single ownership would be enforced?
07:05:58FromGitter<alehander42> what would be used if we need multiple owners then
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07:11:04Araqsome specialized solution. a seq with indexes, a GcRef[T], a SharedPtr[T]
07:14:02Araqlists, queues, async, parsers is what the stdlib consists of. As far as I can oversee it ownership is clear.
07:15:23Araqthe question that I am trying to answer was what are good default semantics for 'ref'
07:16:50FromGitter<alehander42> ok, but would that specialized solution be provided by the stdlib again
07:17:06FromGitter<alehander42> or would it be expected that each project would solve this for itself
07:21:11Araqa stdlib solution will emerge, probably sooner than later just to keep people calm.
07:21:47Araqbut afaik the project specific solutions would be better.
07:22:17FromGitter<alehander42> yeah, but wouldn't a project be able to also just say "i will use the gc"
07:22:27FromGitter<alehander42> and to not deal with this at all
07:22:39FromGitter<alehander42> using the same kind of code as of today
07:22:48FromGitter<alehander42> (you said mostly the libs would need to support both)
07:22:53Araqthat's mostly the question of app vs lib
07:23:25Araqapps are fine with no changes, libs need to care for the lowest common denominator
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07:24:05FromGitter<alehander42> that makes sense
07:24:14FromGitter<alehander42> i was wondering if the gc is here to stay for the apps
07:24:16FromGitter<alehander42> indeed
07:24:21Araqwe can also to try to infer 'owned'
07:26:19Araqthe GC is here to stay for the apps but we'll probably embrace Boehm at this point
07:28:41FromGitter<alehander42> inferring would be cool, but how often would it be possible
07:28:51AraqI don't see the theoretical advantages of our non-shared heaps where allocations require no locking become practical advantages anytime soon. :-/
07:29:52AraqInstead it brought us .gcsafe, deepcopies and hard to use threads and channels.
07:30:51Araqand a duplication of all stdlib containers, SharedTable vs Table, SharedSeq vs seq, SharedString vs string.
07:31:10Araqexcept that we don't have SharedSeq or SharedString
07:32:05Araqalehander42: I don't know and it's too early to think about it
07:34:37FromGitter<alehander42> ok, i am not so good at this memory stuff, so sorry that i am missing links between ideas sometimes, how does the owner-thing directly relate to the sharing of heaps between threads
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07:42:03Araqwell for a start if you know that RC == 0 you know there no readers so you can hand ownership over to a different thread, safely.
07:42:30Araqyou don't have to copy the data.
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07:43:46FromGitter<alehander42> so you are inferring the number of readers
07:43:55FromGitter<alehander42> is this on runtime or on ct
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07:45:13Araqruntime. ct requires yet-anther pragma or a dedicated UniquePtr type
07:45:51FromGitter<alehander42> so if the rc != 0
07:45:57FromGitter<alehander42> then you copy the data
07:46:23Araqnah, then I abort and tell you to fix your program
07:46:36FromGitter<alehander42> in debug mode
07:46:52disruptekklee reporting an oob pointer in nim's hello world. i wonder if i'm using this correctly.
07:47:07Araqin release mode you don't have a RC.
07:48:33FromGitter<alehander42> so what happens in release mode
07:48:51Araqit assumes you tested it and lets you get away with it
07:48:51disruptekoh, i bet it's an unterminated string. probably fine. this will be fun to play with.
07:48:51FromGitter<alehander42> hm so this is if checks:off
07:49:16FromGitter<alehander42> so actually with checks:on your server will abort
07:49:21FromGitter<alehander42> in this case
07:49:31Araqyes.
07:49:35FromGitter<alehander42> the thing i am hesitant about is
07:49:38FromGitter<alehander42> with debug mode
07:49:42FromGitter<alehander42> that some bugs and conditions
07:49:48FromGitter<alehander42> happen very rarely in very specific situations
07:50:15FromGitter<alehander42> so basically you need to have a test that catches them
07:51:13FromGitter<alehander42> and even if you catch them by accident, it might be hard to reproduce sometimes (without some kind of a recorded trace)
07:51:38Araqhere is how to get reliable software (IMHO, ymmv yada yada):
07:51:43FromGitter<alehander42> especially with multithreading (where you have a lot of stuff happening non-deterministically)
07:52:00Araq- you test the shit out of your software.
07:52:09Araqhere is how to get more reliable software:
07:52:32Araq- you write two independent implementations with a clever way to combine them.
07:52:41Araqhere is how to get even more reliable software:
07:52:46Araq- you prove it correct.
07:53:27Araqhere is what to not do: you keep on piling type theory onto the language until you're unable to express the program that you need to write.
07:54:29FromGitter<alehander42> well ok but the goal is always to make it possible to prove classes of things correct with the least amount of end-user friction
07:55:00FromGitter<alehander42> people managed to put a lot more type theory these days than 40 years ago
07:55:06FromGitter<alehander42> :D
07:55:29Araqyeah and linear and affine types are awesome
07:55:33FromGitter<Varriount> @alehander42 Those are my main concerns as well.
07:57:29FromGitter<Varriount> I've had programs that are hard to write tests for, because they depends on things like remote APIs. And there's only so much you can mock or separate
07:58:47FromGitter<alehander42> Araq: yeah and my hope is that we eventually evolve a way to make variants of those and similar (e.g. session types) ideas easy to use
07:58:48Araqhere is what happened with Sqlite: they tested the shit out of it and claimed the type system is irrelevant. here is what not happened: They wrote a blog post about how 'const' in C helps with software reliability.
07:59:15FromGitter<alehander42> yeah, but sqlite's tests are literally famous because almost nobody does that
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07:59:37FromGitter<alehander42> (yeah airplane industry & medical software etc)
08:00:08FromGitter<alehander42> i am not disagreeing: testing a lot is great
08:00:46FromGitter<alehander42> but thats kinda the point: if you test the shit out of your software, why do you even need types
08:01:11Araqyeah you don't. the types are good for readability and the compiler's optimizer.
08:01:13FromGitter<alehander42> and owned etc, technically tests will catch even more obvious dynamic errors
08:01:41FromGitter<alehander42> nah, correctness is way more important than the optimizer
08:03:43FromGitter<alehander42> if you have A which you are sure it works correctly in 99% of the cases and has 90% speed and B which is correct in 90% cases and has 98% speed, most people would choose A : adding hw resources to improve speed is trivial, the other thing not so much (yeah in some cases errors are tollerable but those are not so interesting)
08:07:10FromGitter<mratsim> There is a big issue with SQLite and nil/option value :/ receiving NULL when you expect an int is a pain.
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10:07:46Zevvtypes are good to remind me in a year or two what the hell I was trying to do. They show intent.
10:11:29Zevv*are also*, not just :)
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11:37:14FromDiscord<demotomohiro> type system find error earlier. Testing a program could take longer than checking types
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11:43:23FromDiscord<demotomohiro> When I used python, it reported a error like argument 1 must be blah blah ... after runnig my program 3 minutes.
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12:10:32skrylari heard rumblings that nfltk is broken these days
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13:01:53FromGitter<mratsim> NFL toolkit?
13:02:33FromGitter<mratsim> or NLTK for natual language? or something I don't now, fltk, nltk?
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13:14:21skrylarit was that fltk gui binding i did yeee while ago
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15:15:21clyybberAraq: Why is `end` a keyword?
15:15:36clyybberIts only used in template filters right?
15:16:16clyybber*source code filters
15:19:48FromGitter<liquid600pgm> gosh, `end` being a keyword is really annoying
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15:20:30clyybberyeah I agree
15:20:45clyybberand afaict it has no use outside of source code filters.
15:20:48FromGitter<liquid600pgm> sometimes I just want to measure time and have to use `fin` instead of `end`, and that kind of upsets me
15:24:33ZevvIt was probably reserved for potential future use; better safe then sorry. it has been there since day 1 if I look back in git
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15:26:40ZevvQ: i have a macro generating code that calls templates. Is there a way to get a repr of the generated code with the templates fully expanded?
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16:20:17FromGitter<edrd-f> Hi! I'm new to the language and I'm trying to build a simple API client class that uses the async http client from the standard library, but I'm having an issue with the future stuff... What is wrong with my code? ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c9f97417ecbdc29cacfe3a7]
16:20:46FromGitter<edrd-f> I'm getting the following message: ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c9f975dbd70a40d5fc8f5b5]
16:21:14FromGitter<edrd-f> (truncated for better readability)
16:21:51FromGitter<liquid600pgm> first of all, avoid using `new` as a proc name, as it's used for creating `ref T` in the stdlib, use `newClient` instead
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16:29:30FromGitter<edrd-f> right, ty :)
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18:37:05FromGitter<alehander42> You don't specify
18:37:08FromGitter<alehander42> A return type
18:37:41FromGitter<alehander42> I think k
18:38:11FromGitter<edrd-f> right... I tried this: ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c9fb793759abc043c3adad4]
18:44:32FromGitter<edrd-f> hmm, actually I had to remove the .async. macro
18:44:40FromGitter<edrd-f> because I'm not using await in the method
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18:45:15Zevvthat seems ok to me
18:48:20Zevvany reason you are using methods instead of procs?
18:51:01FromGitter<edrd-f> from what I've read in the docs it's just a syntactic sugar, but idk, shouldn't I use it when working with object types?
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19:22:50ZevvA nim object is not an OO-object; the nomenclature is a bit confusing
19:23:09Zevvan object in Nim is nothing more then a container, translating to a struct in C
19:23:39FromGitter<liquid600pgm> methods are used for dynamic dispatch, you should use procs whenever you don't need it
19:24:38Zevvactually, I have learned to avoid methods - there are some cases when mixing generics and methods will bite you
19:25:54Zevvbasically, the only reason for using methods is if you need dynamic dispatch or inheritance. But having objects with functions acting on them require nothing special in Nim.
19:26:15FromGitter<liquid600pgm> ^
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19:29:20ZevvI wasn't there when it was born, but I guess OO was added to Nim as an afterthought, and even the author is not really sure if it works the way it should. The whole {.base.} thing is a bit odd, for example
19:30:57clyybberAny idea why this casting concats the elements? https://hastebin.com/unixarejek.md
19:33:06ZevvWhat output do you get?
19:34:00clyybber@[9, 205, 4, 10, 7, 2, 8, 25, 125, 107, 28, 51, 255, 212, 245, 217, 190, 107, 16, 1, 31, 40, 29, 179]
19:34:02clyybber@[9, 205, 4, 10, 7, 2, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]
19:34:09clyybberthe first one is the original
19:34:18clyybberand the second one is after casting forth and back
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19:37:30Zevv24 u32s casted to 24 u8s will give you 9 0 0 0 204 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 10 0 0 0 7 0 0 0 2 0 0 0. After that you extend the length to 96 elements, which will pad the rest to zeros. Casting back to uint32 will then only yield the original six first elements.
19:37:41Zevvdoes that make sense
19:37:59Zevvso this is pretty much what i'd expect?
19:38:19clyybberI thought so too, but using newSeq with seqToSort.len*4 doesnt fix it either
19:39:17ZevvI'm not sure I see what output you are trying to get. The original seq?
19:39:22clyybberyeah
19:39:46ZevvProblem is that casting to u8 needs 4 times the elements. So extend to 4*len first, then cast, truncate back and do the rest, I guess
19:39:49Zevvlet me try
19:40:08clyybberyeah thats what I do with newSeq, but it doesn't change the output somehow
19:40:41Zevvhttp://paste.debian.net/1075335/
19:43:54FromGitter<alehander42> Is this the line
19:45:45clyybberZevv: Thank you, but why doesn't creating seq1 with seqToSort.len * 4 work?
19:46:11clyybberOh, I see, because the cast interprets the len field too.
19:46:14Zevv:)
19:46:16clyybberThanks Zevv
19:46:19Zevvnp
19:51:47FromGitter<alehander42> I don't agree I think oop works fine in Nim
19:52:09FromGitter<alehander42> I don't like oop a lot but I don't see what radical is missing
19:52:26FromGitter<alehander42> Maybe there is stuff missing
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19:59:48Zevvalehander42: https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/4486
20:04:06Zevvand https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/10038
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20:04:24Zevvnevermind, the second does not add any information
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20:28:08FromGitter<alehander42> Hm
20:28:14FromGitter<alehander42> Not sure about the details
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20:42:02clyybberNice, got smoothsort ported...
20:42:41clyybberanyone got some sort algorithm implementations to compare to?
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20:47:22ZevvI can write you a bubble sort :)
20:57:34clyybbervery hard to beat :D
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21:24:52FromGitter<Varriount> clybber: I have a quick sort algorithm
21:25:10FromGitter<Varriount> It uses the Hoare partitioning scheme
21:25:44Zevvthere is the stdlib quicksort, no?
21:25:48Zevvor is that c qsort?
21:26:53Araqmergesort
21:31:00clyybberVarriount: Have a link?
21:32:44clyybberJust compared it to the mergesort in algorithm. Looks to be 10% faster on average. Though I havent tested it extensively on big and meaningful data yet
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21:42:05Araqis it a stable sort?
21:46:33clyybberNo
21:51:53clyybberbrb
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22:28:19Araqa stdlib sort must be stable though
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22:39:43Araqand "stable" here does not mean "solid, well tested", it means the algorith maintains the relative order of records with equal keys
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22:55:48clyybberAraq: I know, I wasn't proposing to include it in the stdlib exactly because of that reason
22:56:17AraqI know you know, I wrote for the other readers who might not know
22:59:47clyybber:D
23:10:09clyybbergood night
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23:26:48FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> Has anyone had any success with building nim for raspbian?
23:27:32FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> I'm currently getting an error after running `./koch tools` which produces an error sadly :L
23:29:02FromDiscord<Avatarfighter> specifically this: https://hastebin.com/inonojudek.js
23:30:33FromGitter<Varriount> Araq: Stable sorts are cool under pressure. :P