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| 00:04:49 | def- | Haven't noticed anything, currently updates fine for me |
| 00:11:27 | boydgreenfield | def-: Hmm lovely. I get it on both my machine and a remote Ubuntu server (on CircleCI). Here’s the request object that causes the error, even though wget/browser works fine (via a redirect, so potentially an issue there): (version: 1.1, status: 404 Not Found, headers: {Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 00:09:56 GMT, Strict-Transport-Security: max-age=31536000, Accept-Ranges: bytes, X-XSS-Protection: 1; mode=block, X-Frame-Options: |
| 00:11:28 | boydgreenfield | deny, Content-Length: 9, Vary: Authorization,Accept-Encoding, X-Cache-Hits: 1, X-Served-By: cache-sea1926-SEA, Expires: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 00:14:56 GMT, Content-Security-Policy: default-src 'none', Connection: keep-alive, Access-Control-Allow-Origin: https://render.githubusercontent.com, X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff, Via: 1.1 varnish, Source-Age: 34, X-Cache: HIT}, body: Not Found) |
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| 00:35:40 | filwit | how come len() now checks for nil but add() does not? |
| 00:41:36 | filwit | anyways, g2g |
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| 00:42:33 | dom96 | boydgreenfield: odd |
| 00:42:53 | dom96 | It works fine for me on Windows. |
| 00:43:00 | dom96 | Have you updated Nimble recently? |
| 00:45:36 | boydgreenfield | dom96: Locally I’m on the v0.6.0 tag, but on CircleCI it’s going from master (same problem in both places, on Nim v0.10.2 on both) |
| 00:46:05 | dom96 | boydgreenfield: can you test it with 0.10.3? |
| 00:52:06 | boydgreenfield | dom96: I can a bit later; lots of other tests were falling down for me on the v0.10.3 switch, so I held off earlier today on a full code port (waiting on the next stable, since I actually have some code in prod here) |
| 00:53:00 | dom96 | sure, let me know how it goes when you do. |
| 00:53:02 | dom96 | Good night. |
| 00:58:58 | onionhammer | Varriount did you see this? https://code.visualstudio.com/docs |
| 00:59:14 | onionhammer | needs a nim plugin... once they open it up for plugins :) |
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| 01:26:45 | boydgreenfield | dom96: Appears to work on this remote machine, of course now some of my damned tests fail |
| 01:27:01 | boydgreenfield | (not your fault of course :) ) |
| 01:27:51 | boydgreenfield | (under v0.10.3 / v0.11) |
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| 01:42:52 | Varriount | onionhammer: Is there any indication that it will support plugins? If so, what language(s) can be used? |
| 02:01:22 | onionhammer | Varriount im guessing html/js to customize |
| 02:01:32 | onionhammer | but yeah it says on that page i linked that they will allow 3rd party plugins |
| 02:02:26 | onionhammer | "Visual Studio Code will include a public extensibility model that lets developers build and use plug-ins, and richly customize their edit-build-debug experience." |
| 02:08:14 | Varriount | I'd prefer python, since that would make porting code just a bit easier. |
| 02:08:25 | Varriount | (hopefully) |
| 02:08:38 | Varriount | Then again, if we could write the plugin in Nim... |
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| 02:09:06 | elbow_jason | hey all |
| 02:09:10 | Varriount | Hi |
| 02:09:14 | elbow_jason | is there a way to define a pragma? |
| 02:09:15 | onionhammer | Varriount afaik it's similar to atom |
| 02:09:29 | elbow_jason | i'm sitting at a meetup and we're talking about nim |
| 02:09:45 | Varriount | elbow_jason: Yes, using the 'pragma' pragma |
| 02:10:03 | elbow_jason | that's a bit hilarious |
| 02:10:10 | elbow_jason | Varriount: ty |
| 02:10:14 | Varriount | http://nim-lang.org/manual.html#pragma-pragma |
| 02:10:51 | Varriount | elbow_jason: Glad to see you didn't get confused. I hoped the parenthesis clarified the name. |
| 02:11:26 | elbow_jason | hehe.. we're going throught theindex.html at the moment. :) |
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| 07:40:47 | gokr | Morning fellas |
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| 08:26:36 | Araq | gokr: the release is here: http://nim-lang.org/0.11.0/ |
| 08:27:41 | Araq | feedback appreciated before I switch over to this version of the website |
| 08:27:50 | HakanD_ | \o/ |
| 08:29:19 | gokr | I can test it |
| 08:29:39 | gokr | Ah, you mean the release note etc |
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| 08:36:30 | def- | Araq: some links in lib.html don't work, for example sdl |
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| 08:39:44 | Araq | ah good catch, that's a nimble package now |
| 08:45:09 | HakanD_ | http://nim-lang.org/0.11.0/rationals.html, http://nim-lang.org/0.11.0/dialogs.html, http://nim-lang.org/0.11.0/web.html |
| 08:45:13 | HakanD_ | all from http://nim-lang.org/0.11.0/lib.html |
| 08:45:14 | HakanD_ | not working |
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| 08:48:31 | HakanD_ | http://www.deadlinkchecker.com/ |
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| 08:50:17 | fowl | Araq, macros.getType isnt mentioned |
| 08:50:33 | Araq | fowl: that's a minor feature *cough* |
| 08:50:38 | Araq | good point |
| 08:53:22 | fowl | Typeless parameters are now only allowed in templates and macros. The old way turned out to be too error-prone. - does "any" still work? |
| 08:55:10 | Araq | well actually, they continue to work |
| 08:55:19 | Araq | and produce only a deprecation warning |
| 08:55:28 | def- | Araq: nimsuggest in news doesn't link anywhere |
| 08:55:42 | Araq | def-: yup, I'm writing its docs as we speak |
| 08:55:47 | def- | great |
| 08:59:15 | fowl | where can i set cc=vcc |
| 08:59:40 | def- | $nim/config/nim.cfg or any local config |
| 08:59:45 | fowl | in ~/ somewhere hopefully? |
| 09:00:32 | fowl | it gets overridden |
| 09:04:05 | gokr | My main feedback on the release note is that... Removal of "Typeless parameters" should perhaps be explained a bit more. |
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| 09:17:41 | def- | Araq: I think we should also have a nim-0.11.0.tar.xz. 4 MB vs 28 MB for the zip may be quite a difference for some people |
| 09:18:01 | Araq | I don't know where you get that 4 MB number from |
| 09:18:14 | Araq | the tar.gz was *24* MB |
| 09:18:20 | def- | I extracted the zip and made a tar.xz |
| 09:18:24 | def- | *xz*, not *gz* |
| 09:18:38 | Araq | aha |
| 09:21:03 | Araq | well I've automated the release building properly and everything that requires me to switch OSes is bad |
| 09:22:15 | def- | Araq: 7zip can do tar.xz i think (with wrong executable bits of course) |
| 09:22:16 | Araq | so ... I'm sure I can produce xz, but it will have the executable bits set which sucks |
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| 09:33:30 | Araq | def-: I can produce a .7z which is 2.67 MB |
| 09:34:22 | Araq | 142MB compressed down to 2.67. Not bad. |
| 09:34:38 | def- | but 7z is not as common as tar.xz on *nix |
| 09:35:30 | Araq | it's not common on windows either. but we need to drag these OSes into the 20th century at least |
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| 09:37:06 | gokr | Eh, xz is 7z, but with support for Unix metadata. |
| 09:37:19 | Araq | ah interesting lol |
| 09:37:47 | Araq | and we lack that precious metadata, so 7z is fine |
| 09:38:08 | def- | the 7z tool is not fine at all on non-Windows platforms |
| 09:39:29 | def- | I don't have 7z or zip installed on any of my servers. tar.xz works on each of them |
| 09:40:57 | def- | I can build the tar.xz for you, but I don't see a way to do it properly on Windows |
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| 09:41:44 | Araq | doesn't unzip or whatever you use on unix work with 7z? |
| 09:43:00 | def- | you use tar on unix and it works with tar.{bz2,xz,gz} files, not with 7z |
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| 10:09:14 | coffeepot | congratulations on the new release :) |
| 10:09:35 | OnwardEuler | sweet, there's a new release? |
| 10:10:48 | OnwardEuler | what's new in 0.11= |
| 10:10:49 | OnwardEuler | ?= |
| 10:10:57 | coffeepot | http://nim-lang.org/0.11.0/news.html#Z2015-04-30-version-0-11-0-released |
| 10:11:09 | def- | It's not released yet, that's the preparation |
| 10:11:18 | OnwardEuler | thank you, sir! |
| 10:11:53 | coffeepot | yeah probably best to reiterate what def said, not quite a new release yet! |
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| 10:25:55 | coffeepot | "const foo = {"ah": "finally", "this": "is", "possible.": "nice!"}.toTable()" noice |
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| 10:31:51 | dom96 | I agree with def-, let's get a tar.xz |
| 10:32:18 | dom96 | I also think the release notes need a bit more text. |
| 10:32:35 | gokr | I spoke to Araq and he will try building the tar ball with "tar" instead :) |
| 10:32:41 | fowl | Araq, interface is not quite ready, there is still more things i want to do to make it more safe |
| 10:32:46 | gokr | Since its actually included in the git installed. |
| 10:33:22 | gokr | Also... is xz much better than bz2? |
| 10:33:23 | fowl | right now you would probably blow the world if you used a varargs function with it for ex |
| 10:33:31 | def- | gokr: yes, decompression is sooo much faster |
| 10:33:55 | gokr | And... xz is as universally available on Unices as bz2? |
| 10:33:58 | fowl | gn all |
| 10:34:01 | gokr | gnite |
| 10:34:44 | dom96 | Araq: You can build a tar.xz using 7zip on Windows. |
| 10:34:44 | def- | gokr: not if you have a really old distro, but in the last years many huge projects are switching to xz |
| 10:34:53 | def- | dom96: that sets +x on every file |
| 10:35:05 | def- | dom96: I'd like +x on the shell scripts, but seems like that won't work on Windows |
| 10:35:14 | dom96 | bah |
| 10:35:36 | gokr | dom96: He will try using tar instead, but he is away for lunch |
| 10:36:11 | dom96 | Alright. |
| 10:36:53 | dom96 | I would like to write a bit more in the intro to the release notes, or do you guys think that's not necessary? |
| 10:37:08 | gokr | I also thought that. |
| 10:37:39 | def- | gokr: the 2.6 MB tar.xz extracts into 153 MB in 0.9 seconds for me. I can only get .tar.bz2 down to 18 MB and that needs 2.3 seconds to decompress |
| 10:37:39 | gokr | Like say "This means that this version of the *language* is quite close to 1.0, although the standard library needs more work." Although I am not sure that's a lie :) |
| 10:38:12 | gokr | def-: Ok, just noted however that "xz" seems not to be included in the git install on Windows. |
| 10:38:33 | gokr | So "-cJf" didn't fly. |
| 10:47:36 | gokr | Araq: I just downloaded http://tukaani.org/xz/xz-5.2.1-windows.zip and threw in the binaries in the bin_x86-64 directory into my git\bin directory. Then you can do "tar cJf blabla.tar.xz blabla" |
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| 10:53:12 | dom96 | This is what I have so far: https://gist.github.com/dom96/7ed84d5d56ba4d410db0 |
| 11:02:14 | coffeepot | did someone say that sdl is now a nimble package and not in the stl? |
| 11:02:21 | coffeepot | stdlib |
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| 11:06:07 | flyx | having written code in a dozen languages and adhering to quite some styleguides, I notice that my code is rather inconsistent with identifier name conventions. does anyone else have this problem? |
| 11:06:10 | dom96 | If it is then this shouldn't exist: http://nim-lang.org/0.11.0/graphics.html |
| 11:07:35 | coffeepot | it is nice to have some form of graphics in the stdlib |
| 11:08:02 | coffeepot | although iirc you do need to find/combile sdl.dll |
| 11:08:06 | coffeepot | compile |
| 11:10:55 | coffeepot | i'm hacking out a physics library in nim atm, it would be amazing to have something like that in the stdlib (dunno if this would be a popular idea) but I feel if that's the case then it should probably be a higher level module for a bullet wrapper or something (though, again bullet would need to be compiled to the dll to be used iirc) |
| 11:11:45 | coffeepot | ahem, sorry, rambling :) |
| 11:16:27 | gokr | Personally I can't see physics belonging to a stdlib. |
| 11:16:55 | gokr | What's the argument for being "in the stdlib"? |
| 11:19:46 | coffeepot | that's fair enough gokr. It'd be better as a nimble package. Good question though, what is the requirement for being the stdlib? |
| 11:19:48 | OnwardEuler | I'm working on a little game engine in nim |
| 11:19:58 | OnwardEuler | using the sdl2 packages |
| 11:20:29 | OnwardEuler | I find that graphical work is fairly alright just with that package |
| 11:20:44 | Araq | flyx: yeah. that's the reason why real professionals don't give a fuck about casing. ;-) |
| 11:22:01 | flyx | Araq: I'm just thinking about defining some style *I* want to adhere to when writing Nim code |
| 11:22:21 | Araq | flyx: we have a style guide in the wiki that we stick to |
| 11:22:30 | flyx | ah, nice |
| 11:23:02 | dom96 | Araq: shouldn't the graphics module be deleted? |
| 11:23:14 | Araq | dom96: it should be a nimble package, but isn't |
| 11:23:32 | Araq | same for dialogs |
| 11:23:47 | dom96 | Well, is the sdl module gone? |
| 11:23:48 | Araq | but dialogs is an interesting case. it depends on gtk2 but not on windows |
| 11:24:04 | coffeepot | is the stdlib just stuff that doesn't have any dependancies? |
| 11:24:19 | Araq | dom96: dunno if nimble can model conditional dependencies |
| 11:24:29 | dom96 | Araq: it can't |
| 11:24:44 | Araq | dom96: SDL is still in the stdlib but most people use the Nimble package now I think |
| 11:24:53 | dom96 | right. |
| 11:24:57 | Araq | it's a wrapper for SDL-1.2, most now use SDL-2 |
| 11:25:05 | dom96 | well, I guess for the next release we will sort out the standard lib |
| 11:25:12 | Araq | yup |
| 11:25:19 | dom96 | do you like my intro? |
| 11:25:21 | coffeepot | sdl seems easier for basic graphics, doesn't sdl2 rely on opengl? |
| 11:25:31 | Araq | dom96: I'm not sure it's correct :-) |
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| 11:26:06 | Araq | coffeepot: IMHO SDL-2 disqualifies as a library since it requires a custom main |
| 11:26:19 | Araq | which is mind-bogglingly stupid |
| 11:26:50 | dom96 | Araq: What's not correct about it? |
| 11:27:15 | coffeepot | yes that's an interesting requirement for a library |
| 11:27:19 | Araq | "The *language* itself is very close to 1.0, the primary area that requires more work is the standard library." |
| 11:29:25 | dom96 | ok, well, i'll commit it anyway and you can modify it :P |
| 11:29:33 | Araq | ok |
| 11:30:33 | Araq | fowl: 'interface' wasn't promised for 0.11.0 at all. |
| 11:31:19 | dom96 | done |
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| 11:35:19 | gokr | No idea if there is a "policy" regarding stdlib, but two things that comes to my mind in that area is that one would expect the stdlib to be maintained by the project/community - and thus it needs to be reasonably small and above all perhaps, reasonably general purpose (since Nim is a general purp lang). |
| 11:35:53 | Araq | gokr: the policy is mostly about who maintains it |
| 11:35:58 | gokr | Well, that was the 1st thing, the 2nd thing I was thinking of is the fact that when code is "community maintained" it may have a tendency to rot. |
| 11:36:25 | gokr | I say "may" because perhaps different projects work differently. |
| 11:36:27 | Araq | tendency to rot also exists with modules that are in the stdlib but we don't care about |
| 11:36:41 | Araq | or use for that matter. |
| 11:36:43 | gokr | Right. |
| 11:37:13 | gokr | I do know from Squeak/Pharo that... when code enters the "image" (=stdlib) people suddenly are afraid of improving on it. |
| 11:38:23 | gokr | Sometimes for a good reason - I mean - being conservative and backwards compatible etc. But often just because ... "shared responsibility is no responsibility". |
| 11:39:09 | def- | Araq: are you interested in binary builds for other platforms for the release? |
| 11:40:33 | Araq | yes, but I don't want another "this version has binaries, and ... this doesn't cause the guy who built it wasn't available" |
| 11:41:21 | dom96 | We need a build farm which can build these binaries/installers. |
| 11:41:39 | Araq | dom96: exactly. but we haven't. |
| 11:43:18 | def- | can't use the buildbot.nim-lang.org thing for that? |
| 11:43:55 | Araq | in theory we could do that. in practice Varriount_ has no time. |
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| 11:47:06 | def- | Araq: git archive can create tars and apparently preserves executable bit. not sure if that's an option in your building process |
| 11:48:03 | Araq | but what is there to "preserve"? there is no exec bit on windows. |
| 11:48:25 | def- | but in the Nim git repo the executable bit of shell scripts is there |
| 11:48:50 | Araq | hrm |
| 11:48:53 | Araq | will try |
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| 12:14:39 | bluenote | hm, is the following behavior intended: (?) |
| 12:14:45 | bluenote | I have a bin and a src folder and try to compile "nim c -r -o:bin/main src/main.nim" |
| 12:15:02 | bluenote | however, the compiler tries to output the file to "src/bin/main" |
| 12:15:16 | bluenote | I can work around that by "nim c -r -o:../bin/main src/main.nim" |
| 12:15:24 | bluenote | but then "-r" does no longer work, i.e., nim fails to execute its own output resulting in "sh: 1: ./../bin/main: not found" |
| 12:15:57 | Araq | no, it's a known bug, but fixing it will break somebody's build I think :-/ |
| 12:16:27 | Araq | -o wasn't really designed for Nim, it's for "nim doc2" ... |
| 12:16:29 | bluenote | ok, thanks! |
| 12:16:52 | Araq | and then people complained it doesn't work ... |
| 12:20:37 | bluenote | well, separating the binary output from the source is probably something many people will try |
| 12:23:35 | bluenote | what about keeping the behavior that we need -o:../bin/blah and simply adapting the path where "-r" looks for the output? |
| 12:23:55 | bluenote | this should not break anything, since -r is broken anyway with -o |
| 12:23:56 | bluenote | ? |
| 12:24:27 | Araq | no, let's just fix it instead |
| 12:25:17 | Araq | we need to rework path handling in the compiler anyway ... this will break stuff. again. |
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| 12:41:03 | flyx | why isn't \n allowed in a character literal? |
| 12:41:17 | def- | flyx: it's 2 characters on windows |
| 12:41:19 | BlaXpirit-UA | \l is \n |
| 12:41:26 | flyx | ah |
| 12:41:27 | flyx | I see |
| 12:41:33 | BlaXpirit-UA | \n can be 2 chars |
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| 13:26:15 | bluenote | I'm not sure if https://github.com/Araq/Nim/issues/2355 is really fixed |
| 13:26:28 | bluenote | shouldn't this fail: https://gist.github.com/bluenote10/d83eb35a34de309af177 |
| 13:27:29 | Araq | bluenote: doesn't produce a warning? |
| 13:27:57 | Araq | yes it does. |
| 13:28:08 | Araq | "Warning: Cannot prove that 't' is initialized." |
| 13:28:08 | bluenote | ah, got it "This will become a compile time error in the future." |
| 13:28:35 | bluenote | I was assuming the compiler already refuses to compile this... |
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| 13:33:06 | bluenote | ...because the compiler already produces an error when I initialize the field as nil _explicitly_. |
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| 13:44:28 | Araq | bluenote: well not directly related to that but ... I'd really prefer people would submit real tests instead of these trimmed toy examples that are filling up our tests directory |
| 13:46:10 | Araq | trimmed down examples help when it fails at runtime, but not so much for compiletime bugs |
| 13:47:12 | Araq | and the danger is that there is an overfitting of the compiler to these toy examples |
| 13:48:11 | bluenote | yeah, especially for such cases where the compiler has to infer complex information/relations... |
| 13:49:42 | bluenote | for instance I just had this case: type A = seq[blah]; type B = seq[otherblah] not nil |
| 13:50:28 | bluenote | in my code I had an A which was not nil at runtime, and I was mapping over it so that the types changed from "blah" to "otherblah" |
| 13:50:48 | bluenote | the result obviously must be "not nil" since the original sequence was not nil |
| 13:51:36 | bluenote | but interestingly the compiler will give an error since it cannot prove "not nil" in this case |
| 13:53:19 | Araq | well it helps to think of it as if Nim did like the others do. So 'seq' is Optional[T] and 'seq not nil' is 'T' and then instead of pattern matching you can do 'if not x.isNil:' |
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| 13:53:42 | Araq | the analyis is not much smarter than that |
| 13:54:13 | Araq | this explains for instance why 'if x.isNil: return' doesn't help |
| 13:54:28 | Araq | but 'if not x.isNil: ... body here ... ' does |
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| 13:55:10 | bluenote | yes, this makes sense |
| 13:56:41 | Araq | that said, that "flow typing" that Nim uses is now used also to enforce locking etc., so it's quite consistently applied and a very powerful idea |
| 13:58:13 | Araq | well ... not that "powerful" but I love the complexity vs expressivity tradeoff of it |
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| 14:00:33 | bluenote | imho having the compiler to force something like not nil is definitely "powerful" |
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| 14:10:00 | coffeepot | is there currently a way to query metrics about memory operations, current memory overhead or other statistics from the GC? Or can I get this info better from a profiling tool (if so any recommendations)? |
| 14:10:36 | def- | coffeepot: GC_getStatistics() |
| 14:10:47 | coffeepot | yay! Cheers def- :) |
| 14:12:34 | coffeepot | that is sweet |
| 14:16:37 | Araq | coffeepot: before you parse that info ... make a PR to expose the stuff in a typed manner |
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| 14:23:47 | coffeepot | ok, sure :) I guess I'll have to actually create a github account then ;) |
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| 15:07:41 | coffeepot | So this is it, 0.11 is officially released? |
| 15:07:45 | * | Trustable joined #nim |
| 15:10:12 | dom96 | yep |
| 15:10:24 | bluenote | what is the current state of the future module btw? |
| 15:10:41 | bluenote | I cannot get the passTwoAndTwo example to work |
| 15:11:29 | bluenote | I mean withour warnings like: Warning: '(x; y): auto' has no type. Typeless parameters are deprecated; only allowed for 'template' [TypelessParam] |
| 15:12:32 | dom96 | My plan is to have that stuff in the system module |
| 15:12:48 | dom96 | not sure if Araq will agree |
| 15:13:43 | bluenote | +100 for making this part of system :) |
| 15:14:43 | bluenote | but will it be possible to use anonymous functions without type annotations considering typeless parameters are deprecated? |
| 15:16:10 | Araq | yeah, the macro needs to expand to proc (x, y: auto): auto = ... |
| 15:16:17 | Araq | the feature is not gone |
| 15:16:21 | Araq | bbl |
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| 15:18:18 | bluenote | yes, and it seems to work, I was just worried about the warnings |
| 15:18:31 | coffeepot | I love the way everything you need to use nim is included in a single installer for windows, it's just great. Minor note for dom96 though - and this might have just been my system - but compiling failed and causes Aporia to quit because edit/preferences/tools had this in the nim exe edit box "$findExe(nimrod) c --listFullPaths $#" when it should ha |
| 15:18:31 | coffeepot | ve been "$findExe(nim) c --listFullPaths $#" |
| 15:19:13 | dom96 | argh, damn. That's a bad issue. |
| 15:21:47 | coffeepot | just to clarify, nim was installed correctly and everything works, it was just a setting in Aporia that needed changing so it could find the exe |
| 15:22:37 | coffeepot | I've had various versions of nim installed though, could it be an old register settings? I usually use sublime as my editor so I haven't used Aporia in a while |
| 15:23:07 | dom96 | Have you used Aporia before? |
| 15:23:41 | coffeepot | yes but ages ago |
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| 15:23:50 | dom96 | ahh, that's good. |
| 15:23:52 | dom96 | https://github.com/nim-lang/Aporia/blob/master/cfg.nim#L40 |
| 15:24:00 | dom96 | Seems it has been fixed, whew. |
| 15:24:18 | coffeepot | :) so it's probably just an old setting for me then :D |
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| 15:25:44 | dom96 | yep |
| 15:25:57 | dom96 | Aporia shouldn't crash though heh |
| 15:26:45 | coffeepot | another old setting that's probably just me too is that the shortcut on my start menu points to C:\Nim\dist\aporia\bin whereas the exe is actually located in C:\Nim\dist\aporia-0.3.0\bin |
| 15:26:58 | coffeepot | sorry hopefully not causing undue stress here! |
| 15:27:21 | coffeepot | my system isn't a clean install because the uninstaller didn't run |
| 15:28:48 | dom96 | we can always fix the installer if bugs are found |
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| 15:28:56 | coffeepot | fwiw the shortcut on my start menu is dated march 17th this year so it's probably just old data again ;) |
| 15:29:05 | dom96 | indeed |
| 15:31:25 | coffeepot | sorry dom :) congratulations on the release again, things are really getting exciting for nim :D |
| 15:31:40 | dom96 | hehe, no worries. Thank you for testing it. |
| 15:32:26 | coffeepot | np :D |
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| 15:49:42 | Arrrrrr | Hello. Congratulations nim community for this release. |
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| 16:14:14 | Trustable | I get "Error: unhandled exception: invalid format string [ValueError]" when Nim tries to compile cairo for a gtk2 programm |
| 16:14:40 | Trustable | How can I get more information about the error? |
| 16:16:17 | dom96 | ./koch temp c cairo.nim |
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| 16:20:39 | Trustable | dome96, thx, problem is the kown one: could not import: CreateSymbolicLinkW |
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| 16:22:46 | Trustable | oh, I think I can fix it with deadCodeElim:on, but this does not help |
| 16:33:39 | BlaXpirit-UA | noice |
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| 16:48:14 | ldlework | congrats on the release, peoples of Nim |
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| 17:04:40 | BlaXpirit | are the commits to master just gonna continue or maybe it's time to do something about this |
| 17:05:14 | BlaXpirit | and by commits I mean accidental commits |
| 17:09:13 | def- | BlaXpirit: sure, how to fix it? |
| 17:09:40 | BlaXpirit | not have the stable branch named "master" |
| 17:10:03 | def- | I don't think that's the source of the problem |
| 17:10:08 | BlaXpirit | of course it is |
| 17:10:28 | BlaXpirit | everyone knows master is what you base your contributions on |
| 17:10:37 | def- | people click through the documentation on the source code link and that leads them to this branch, so they fix typos directly there and make the PR |
| 17:10:58 | BlaXpirit | hm maybe |
| 17:11:18 | def- | but i still agree that master should be renamed to stable/release and devel to master |
| 17:11:43 | BlaXpirit | not even necessary to rename devel to master |
| 17:11:57 | ldlework | do you really need a branch for stable/release? |
| 17:12:04 | ldlework | just tag releases. |
| 17:12:21 | ldlework | master = development that passes tests |
| 17:12:31 | ldlework | branches = shit that may or may not work |
| 17:12:37 | BlaXpirit | something is definitely flawed there |
| 17:12:38 | def- | maybe there will be bugfix releases, so a branch may make sense |
| 17:12:52 | BlaXpirit | the branch is supposed to be 0.11 then |
| 17:13:16 | ldlework | def-: in that case, agreed |
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| 17:14:03 | ldlework | But only commits that pass tests/review should be allowed to be merged, by way of feature-branch-pr |
| 17:14:06 | ldlework | to master |
| 17:14:16 | ldlework | you should always be able to compile master, and get something that works |
| 17:14:21 | ldlework | something that you pass to nightly build system |
| 17:15:08 | ldlework | shit that doesn't work, lives in a feature branch that undergoes review and iteration until its ready, tracked by an on-going early-PR |
| 17:15:15 | ldlework | that's how we do it anyway |
| 17:15:17 | BlaXpirit | wait a second |
| 17:15:25 | BlaXpirit | why do docs even link to a branch in the first place |
| 17:15:30 | BlaXpirit | why the heck is it not a tag |
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| 17:16:00 | BlaXpirit | that's the main problem! |
| 17:16:18 | def- | well, that's easy to fix then |
| 17:16:54 | BlaXpirit | but then "everyone knows master is what you base your contributions on" point still stands |
| 17:17:18 | BlaXpirit | btw in case someone finds this in search, that^ is currently not true for Nim |
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| 17:29:56 | Araq | BlaXpirit: I'm open for suggestions. the master/devel split certainly makes no sense anymore. |
| 17:30:05 | BlaXpirit | ldlework said it |
| 17:31:07 | BlaXpirit | of course, there is that convenience that you can clone git repository master and expect latest version |
| 17:31:24 | BlaXpirit | not sure what the alternative would be |
| 17:32:05 | Araq | well I dunno. maybe what we have does make some sense, if only we used it properly |
| 17:32:23 | Araq | bugfixes always can break somebody's code |
| 17:32:42 | Araq | so unless it's a critical fix, it should live in devel |
| 17:33:20 | BlaXpirit | what's typically done is branches like "0.11" |
| 17:34:59 | BlaXpirit | the current model is not so bad |
| 17:35:14 | BlaXpirit | but what definitely should be done is removing links to master in docs |
| 17:35:20 | ldlework | Generally, when you clone from version control, you're intersted in the development of the thing. |
| 17:35:27 | ldlework | If you want to clone a release, you look to a tag. |
| 17:35:47 | BlaXpirit | if linked to a tag, it says "you must be on a branch to make changes to this file" |
| 17:35:59 | BlaXpirit | ldlework, how do you get latest release? |
| 17:36:24 | ldlework | BlaXpirit: if you really need something other than picking the tag you're interested in, we can maintain a 'latest' tag |
| 17:36:41 | ldlework | As part of the release process |
| 17:37:18 | ldlework | But this is only how to do it, if you don't want separate master/devel branches |
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| 17:37:31 | BlaXpirit | i rely on master here https://github.com/docopt/docopt.nim/blob/9b8a4/circle.yml |
| 17:37:50 | BlaXpirit | because i dont see a different way to get latest release |
| 17:38:02 | ldlework | otherwise, master = latest release, devel = test-passing release-pending work, branches = features and version tracking |
| 17:38:21 | ldlework | features get merged into devel, and when devel accumulates enough for a release, devel is merged into master and tagged |
| 17:38:43 | BlaXpirit | that's just not gonna work |
| 17:38:53 | ldlework | I mean that's the 'true' git standard |
| 17:39:35 | BlaXpirit | good unless you consider that devel compiler is an important product on its own |
| 17:39:43 | Araq | well that's what we do (?) |
| 17:39:56 | ldlework | it has nothing to do with the devel version being something independent |
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| 17:40:04 | ldlework | its about accumulating release commits |
| 17:40:21 | Araq | master = latest release, devel = test-passing stuff, branches for important stuff |
| 17:40:22 | ldlework | its a version control thing, not a nim product thing |
| 17:40:30 | ldlework | Araq: right, I don't think anything needs to change |
| 17:40:46 | ldlework | But we should link to tags not branches |
| 17:41:08 | Araq | you mean for the "view source" feature in the docs? |
| 17:41:15 | BlaXpirit | mainly |
| 17:41:22 | BlaXpirit | maybe there is something else |
| 17:41:22 | ldlework | I only suggested the other thing, because I thought I read you guys were trying to figure out a way to do it without separate branches. |
| 17:41:30 | ldlework | I don't actually recommend doing a latst tag, and all that. |
| 17:41:50 | BlaXpirit | i just cringe when i see those commits to master, that's all :| |
| 17:41:58 | ldlework | No one should be comitting to master. |
| 17:42:07 | BlaXpirit | and yet it happens |
| 17:42:09 | ldlework | Master should only accumulate commits via FF merges of devel |
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| 17:42:14 | BlaXpirit | and that's what i brought up |
| 17:42:22 | ldlework | Ah that's an operational problem then :D |
| 17:42:43 | BlaXpirit | these are accidental |
| 17:42:57 | ldlework | And devel should only accumulate commits via PR merges via github interface |
| 17:43:08 | Araq | BlaXpirit: yeah, I dunno. when reviewing PRs I pay no attention to the branch |
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| 17:43:35 | ldlework | Araq: time to start! lol |
| 17:43:36 | BlaXpirit | def- implied that almost all of such pull requests are the result of people being linked to master in docs |
| 17:43:43 | ldlework | BlaXpirit: makes sense |
| 17:44:00 | ldlework | its no big deal just have to make a community effort to pay more attention to that |
| 17:44:12 | ldlework | "Please resubmit this against devel for inclusion in $NEXT_SEM_VER" |
| 17:44:21 | BlaXpirit | we get it |
| 17:44:28 | BlaXpirit | but it's accidental -_- |
| 17:44:46 | ldlework | Sorry didn't mean to be a broken record |
| 17:45:28 | Araq | er ... the "view source" feature is fucked up?! |
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| 17:45:42 | BlaXpirit | like we said already, it should not link to master |
| 17:45:43 | Araq | these lines do not match at all. I wonder what's wrong here |
| 17:45:54 | Araq | but master == devel right now? |
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| 17:46:00 | BlaXpirit | Araq, well because master was updated and docs are implying old master |
| 17:46:08 | BlaXpirit | docs weren't updated! |
| 17:46:08 | Araq | how so? |
| 17:46:19 | Araq | I did update the docs, wait a sec |
| 17:46:23 | BlaXpirit | e.g. re.html doesn't have my changes |
| 17:46:35 | Araq | well it's in 0.11.0/re.html now |
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| 17:46:46 | Araq | it's now versionized |
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| 17:47:02 | Araq | but some links are wrong, pointing to the old docs |
| 17:47:13 | Araq | which I left on this server for the time being |
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| 17:47:19 | BlaXpirit | Araq, please change links https://github.com/Araq/Nim/blob/master/lib/impure/re.nim#L26 -> https://github.com/Araq/Nim/blob/v0.11.0/lib/impure/re.nim#L26 |
| 17:47:35 | BlaXpirit | that's the main point |
| 17:47:50 | Araq | no something else is going on here |
| 17:48:13 | BlaXpirit | i'm not saying there isn't |
| 17:48:41 | Araq | oh no. it's just the old browser refresh problem for me |
| 17:48:53 | Araq | the lines do match |
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| 17:50:27 | BlaXpirit | old locations of docs should be updated |
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| 17:51:09 | Araq | BlaXpirit: iirc one problem was that github doesn't link properly to particular commits. 'master' worked fine. |
| 17:51:19 | Araq | maybe tags do too |
| 17:51:28 | Araq | or maybe github fixed the problem in general |
| 17:52:11 | BlaXpirit | never seen anything like this |
| 17:52:17 | BlaXpirit | any such problem* |
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| 17:54:30 | federico3 | ooh there was a release today |
| 17:57:10 | Arrrrrr | Yep, upvote http://redd.it/34ep78 |
| 17:58:25 | BlaXpirit | all my libraries work, and have 0 deprecation messages |
| 17:58:34 | BlaXpirit | that's nice |
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| 18:04:57 | federico3 | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9465517 |
| 18:05:21 | federico3 | there's quite some whining about the case-insensivitiy in variable names |
| 18:06:27 | BlaXpirit | haters gonna hate |
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| 18:07:22 | BlaXpirit | i got over the syntax |
| 18:07:41 | federico3 | some are asking to change it or make it optional (sounds impossible) |
| 18:08:00 | federico3 | but maybe a nice explanation would do |
| 18:08:05 | Arrrrrr | Indeed. Change it because you gonna make it working with grep .. |
| 18:08:20 | BlaXpirit | nope nope nope |
| 18:08:28 | BlaXpirit | it was just changed recently -_- |
| 18:10:42 | ldlework | Is IDETools working these days? |
| 18:17:50 | Arrrrrr | koch boot -d:release --deadCodeElim:on #could not import: CreateSymbolicLinkW |
| 18:17:59 | Arrrrrr | dom96: you told me i could pass deadCodeElim to koch |
| 18:18:14 | keypusher | 0.11 release also mentioned here on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9465517 |
| 18:20:31 | Arrrrrr | ok, i compiled koch with the switch on |
| 18:20:45 | iamd3vil | What should I clone? the devel or master branch for 0.11 release |
| 18:20:52 | keypusher | one complaint that stuck out to me was about partial case insensitivity, is there really a good argument for supporting this? i see in the docs it references allowing programmers with different styles to work on codebases and display identifiers the way they like, but it still seems weird to me |
| 18:21:13 | Arrrrrr | i'd clone devel if i were you. |
| 18:21:23 | dom96 | the v0.11.0 tag |
| 18:21:28 | def- | iamd3vil: right now it shouldn't matter. master will not be updated until next release, devel gets all the development inbetween releases |
| 18:21:28 | dom96 | (or master) |
| 18:22:03 | Arrrrrr | Is both weird and a good argument. |
| 18:23:07 | Araq | keypusher: the alternative seems to be enforce some_ugly_identifiers for compatibility with Python for functions and SomeOtherThing for types. Or we enforce javaStyleIdentifiers instead. well guess what. you can support both styles at the same time, pissing everybody off. Seems to be a nice compromise. |
| 18:23:52 | Araq | as a result we don't have to tell Nimble packagers to write everythingThisWay or everything_this_way. |
| 18:23:52 | keypusher | fair enough |
| 18:23:57 | def- | Araq: at least inside of a project the compiler could give a warning if you use identifiers inconsistently |
| 18:24:42 | Arrrrrr | Anyway most here seems to stick with the camelCase style |
| 18:25:30 | ldlework | I'm going to take that as a no |
| 18:25:46 | ldlework | I wish we had adopted lower_case_style :( |
| 18:25:50 | Araq | def-: that's *lots* of work for no good reason. |
| 18:26:27 | def- | grepping is a good reason for me |
| 18:26:30 | Arrrrrr | lower_case is so ugly |
| 18:26:41 | keypusher | it does seem like it encourages inconsistent styles. i think personally i would prefer an opinionated stance on "The One Right Way" but I can understand not wanting to make that decision for people |
| 18:26:44 | ldlework | Its the most vistually tokenizable |
| 18:26:45 | Araq | we have better things to do than dreaming up ways of how to boss around our users. |
| 18:27:02 | dom96 | We do have a stance: camelCase |
| 18:27:21 | Araq | def-: so use nimgrep instead. that produces more readable output anyway. |
| 18:27:34 | dom96 | if you're calling wrappers then using the wrapper's style is ok. |
| 18:27:43 | ldlework | def-: how often are you interested in a token in your app code and in the underlying library code at the same time? |
| 18:27:52 | ldlework | You can say a lot, but in my experience its usually one or the other. |
| 18:28:01 | federico3 | indeed |
| 18:28:04 | ldlework | Now having to remember what style the underlying library used, is annoying.. |
| 18:28:13 | def- | Araq: I mean searching in general. most editors don't have a nim-aware search |
| 18:28:38 | Araq | def-: most of the time the fact we avoid underscores is sufficient for that |
| 18:28:58 | Araq | text based searches are never accurate for a programming language anyway |
| 18:29:16 | Araq | you can always think of cases where grepping can fool you |
| 18:30:16 | federico3 | indeed, ctags is your friend (or not) |
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| 18:31:41 | keypusher | it does add complexity to intellisense type code identifier resolution |
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| 18:34:15 | Arrrrrr | Does it? How much complexity can it add? |
| 18:34:41 | Araq | ~30 lines of code. perhaps. |
| 18:35:05 | Arrrrrr | http://nim-lang.org/manual.html#identifier-equality |
| 18:39:41 | def- | Anyway, I'm not saying that case sensitivity is better. both have problems |
| 18:41:28 | keypusher | judging from the HN thread, most programmers seem to have a visceral reaction that case insensitivity is a bad idea |
| 18:42:13 | BlaXpirit | the real problem is the existence of uglyCase |
| 18:42:16 | federico3 | s/programmers/hn_readers/ |
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| 18:42:40 | BlaXpirit | i probably wouldn't consider nim if it was mandatory |
| 18:43:55 | keypusher | does either one have to be mandatory though? can't you just resolve uglyCase and ugly_case to different things and let the writer choose? |
| 18:44:20 | BlaXpirit | are u serious |
| 18:44:28 | BlaXpirit | did u even think before saying that? |
| 18:44:29 | keypusher | that's the way other languages work |
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| 18:44:53 | keypusher | you resolve the actual name |
| 18:45:25 | keypusher | maybe im wrong |
| 18:45:51 | ddl_smurf | hello all – just read http://nim-lang.org/news.html#Z2015-04-30-version-0-11-0-released – very exciting news – wanted to ask: does this mean the GC is truly optional to the stdlib now ? are macros that need allocations robust ? |
| 18:46:02 | Arrrrrr | Not because blax writes half of the wrappers out there and you'd be forced to write_like_this |
| 18:46:24 | BlaXpirit | i wrote just 1 :| |
| 18:48:09 | Arrrrrr | https://github.com/BlaXpirit?tab=repositories |
| 18:48:11 | boydgreenfield | Does anyone know the underlying bug behind this commit changing the CountTables implementation? https://github.com/Araq/Nim/commit/5fbcf93860e68d7ddde4b01aa4b7222a7fcaaabc. Unfortunately, it appears to have broken `[]=` (and maybe more) in v0.11 for me. https://github.com/Araq/Nim/issues/2625 provides reproducible example. |
| 18:49:06 | dom96 | ddl_smurf: A lot of stdlib procedures still use the GC. You will get warnings when you use them if you specify --gc:none though. |
| 18:49:43 | ddl_smurf | hey dom96, long time - does that mean --gc default to boehm now ? |
| 18:49:45 | Arrrrrr | You have nim-chipmunk, nim-csfml |
| 18:49:54 | Arrrrrr | Well, 2. |
| 18:50:19 | dom96 | ddl_smurf: indeed, welcome back. Nope, --gc still defaults to Nim's GC. |
| 18:50:36 | ddl_smurf | ty |
| 18:52:25 | keypusher | BlaXpirit: perhaps i worded that poorly. i meant let the writer of the library choose which style they prefer (which they already can today), the caller would get whatever they call explicitly, with no magic insensivity |
| 18:58:06 | Arrrrrr | I have made some test with nims.cfg in windows xp. Using this works: p:".\\path\\to" but not this: p:"./path/to" which indeed works when passed directly to the compiler. |
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| 19:06:02 | Araq | keypusher: that only trades one set of problems for another. I don't want to use foo_bar just because its author liked that style. I don't and I don't see the reason why it should matter in the first place. |
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| 19:06:59 | Araq | Nim generally assumes the library writer is as much of an idiot as its consumer. Which I personally found completely true. |
| 19:08:47 | Araq | boydgreenfield: well that's quite possible. there is only so much we can test before a release |
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| 19:11:42 | Araq | and it may surprise you but *consistent spelling has no correlation whatsoever with software quality or the number of bugs". it's simply irrelevant and it would be nice if programmers could finally -after decades! - distinguish between syntax and semantics. |
| 19:12:43 | Araq | I cringe everytime I read an article like "Quake's code is awesome and here is why: It uses spaces after (" |
| 19:12:58 | BlaXpirit | o.o |
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| 19:21:04 | Arrrrrr | Now i see why it was called nimrod *wink*. |
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| 19:45:29 | Arrrrrr | I have to go, again, congrats for the release. |
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| 19:54:50 | boydgreenfield | Araq: Not a critique, I get that these things happen. It’s just that in order to make a PR with a fix, it’d be helpful to understand why the breaking commit was originally made (i.e., what did it fix) – and I was/am having trouble figuring that out. |
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| 20:01:53 | flaviu | Congrats on the release! I've been too busy to keep up lately, but it looks like there's lots of good stuff in there! |
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| 20:12:23 | vbtt_ | woohoo - congrats guys! |
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| 20:13:09 | Araq | ah vbtt_ wb |
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| 20:33:48 | Araq | hey ddl_smurf welcome back |
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| 20:44:16 | ddl_smurf | hey araq =) |
| 20:46:23 | fowl | i thought add() was supposed to handle nil string :/ |
| 20:48:37 | vikaton | congrats on 0.11 |
| 20:48:47 | Araq | fowl: turned out to be harder to implement than I expected it to be. |
| 20:49:04 | Araq | so it was delayed for 0.12.0 |
| 20:49:19 | fowl | Araq, told you :p i had to move things around and the order was impossible iirc |
| 20:49:56 | Araq | vikaton: thank you :-) |
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| 20:51:03 | Senketsu | omedeto for .11 |
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| 20:51:35 | vikaton | my 2 favorite languages both released new versions on the same day |
| 20:52:07 | vikaton | what a cool coincidence |
| 20:52:10 | ddl_smurf | +1 congrats to yall =) |
| 20:52:53 | Araq | vikaton: what is the other language? ;-) |
| 20:53:18 | vikaton | Araq, Crystal releases version 0.7.0 just minutes ago :P |
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| 20:53:27 | vikaton | released* |
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| 20:58:08 | Araq | aye |
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| 21:05:56 | fowl | someone set this up please https://github.com/nim-lang/packages/pull/139 |
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| 21:06:28 | fowl | if nim lang has a travis ci token pm it to me ill set it up |
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| 21:13:55 | Guest3414 | Hi, i'm getting a type expected error from this |
| 21:13:56 | Guest3414 | var pixelArray: array[1..5 , GLfloat] glReadPixels( x,y-1, 1,1, GL_RGBA, cGL_FLOAT, ref pixelArray[0]) |
| 21:13:59 | Guest3414 | and i don't know why |
| 21:14:43 | Guest3414 | the error persists even if change teh line to glReadPixels( x,y-1, 1,1, GL_RGBA, cGL_FLOAT, ref pixelArray) |
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| 21:16:06 | Araq | 'ref' is only a type constructor |
| 21:16:10 | fowl | you mean addr instead of ref |
| 21:16:14 | Araq | you want 'addr' or something |
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| 21:21:09 | Guest3414 | It changed there error, but it is expecting pointer instead of ptr |
| 21:26:55 | Guest3414 | Malformed some other part of the code. Fixed it. Thanks guys |
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| 21:37:48 | Araq | hi DKordic welcome |
| 21:40:44 | DKordic | Araq: Hello. +1 for making clear distinction between 'proc' and 'fun'. |
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| 21:45:59 | Araq | DKordic: he, thanks. |
| 21:46:39 | DSADFFFDDDD | is there a way to change the default float literal to float32 for a scope, either with a pragma or a macro? its a pain in the ass to write 'f32 everywhere in opengl code :P |
| 21:47:36 | DSADFFFDDDD | i mean 'existing macro' not if its 'possible' |
| 21:48:42 | fowl | [1f32, 0,1,2] # array of float32 |
| 21:49:02 | fowl | its not that bad |
| 21:49:16 | Araq | fowl: but it's hardly known ;-) |
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| 21:51:50 | DSADFFFDDDD | nice that fixes most of the pain thx |
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| 22:17:57 | def- | Araq: any idea how i would best rename main to SDL_main? It also doesn't like the environment args at the end |
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| 22:20:13 | def- | I can just change it in the resulting C file and it works, so I tried --noMain and emitting an SDL_main manually, but that ends up at the wrong position |
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| 22:20:58 | fowl | include sdl_main.h |
| 22:21:44 | fowl | actually i never figured this out for sdl2 and nobody ever cared enough to implement it. the only platform it matters is osx iirc |
| 22:21:58 | def- | I'm compiling to Android and have this problem |
| 22:22:18 | fowl | yglukhov has resources for that |
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| 22:22:25 | def- | i know, but they looked complicated |
| 22:22:33 | def- | what I have looks much simpler now |
| 22:22:44 | def- | and works perfectly except for this small detail |
| 22:23:16 | ddl_smurf | the small detail of not having a main ? |
| 22:23:41 | def- | yep, which I could fix by running sed over the C file but that feels so ugly |
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| 22:24:17 | def- | fowl: doesn' |
| 22:24:22 | def- | t work for me |
| 22:24:23 | Araq | def-: .emit allows you to specify a section |
| 22:24:38 | Araq | check it out, it's new, in 0.11.0 and documented |
| 22:25:03 | yglukhov | def- https://github.com/yglukhov/nimx/blob/master/nimx/linkage_details.nim |
| 22:25:16 | yglukhov | and --noMain to nim |
| 22:25:43 | Araq | and it's also not listed in our news ... |
| 22:26:06 | def- | Araq: and I always read the old docs becuase i have them all bookmarked and google indexes them |
| 22:26:47 | Araq | what lol? google should index the new stuff hours ago |
| 22:26:55 | Araq | *should have indexed |
| 22:27:06 | def- | yglukhov: thanks, that worked |
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| 22:27:22 | yglukhov | welcome =) |
| 22:27:32 | def- | Araq: but the old sites all still exist and are much higher up in the results |
| 22:27:44 | def- | i think they should redirect to 0.11.0 at least |
| 22:29:34 | Araq | well I prefer to delete them |
| 22:30:09 | ddl_smurf | then perhaps remove the version from the url ? i think google won't see them as updates otherwise |
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| 22:56:05 | def- | http://hookrace.net/blog/nimes/ |
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| 23:04:51 | fowl | def-, pretty cool |
| 23:05:36 | fowl | how long were you working on this? |
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| 23:06:38 | def- | Hm, I don't remember (and I threw away the git history because it consisted of thousands of "update" commits) Maybe dom96 remembers |
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| 23:06:53 | def- | I started after I found out his GB emulator was much further than mine already |
| 23:07:09 | fowl | was justa bout to ask |
| 23:07:40 | fowl | can the emu run GB and NES games? |
| 23:07:49 | def- | Nope, only NES |
| 23:07:58 | def- | But first I wanted to make a GB emu |
| 23:12:53 | def- | 20 days |
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| 23:13:46 | def- | Much longer than my usual Nim projects, which always took one night or one weekend at most |
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| 23:42:12 | fowl | def-: you going to do sound |
| 23:46:22 | def- | fowl: sound works, just not on android and js |
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